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I suppressed the sentence and link about the support of the AEL towards the recent Iranian president's declarations about Israel: this is a stub of 2 small paragraphs about this organization, such precise considerations don't bring anything useful to the knowledge of the AEL, whose position towards Israel has been clear from its beginning. It reminds me of the article about the Bulgarian Turks' Movement for Rights and Freedoms where someone deemed of the utmost importance to stress and support the accusations of electoral fraud that have never been sustained by the ad hoc Electoral commission. Please note that I have no sympathy either for the AEL, Aminejad or Israel, but I'm afraid the person who added the recent text has more Zionist propagandist motivations than encyclopedic ones. -- Pylambert 16:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
This article does nothing but list a bill of particulars in attempt to villainize the AEL, without even giving a cursory glance at their side of the issues at hand (e.g., racist violence against Arabs across Europe). As such, it's going into the NPOV disputes category. Let someone who doesn't get all their information from FoxNews get a crack at it. -- Daniel 02:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I note that my insertion of the Salon link was reverted by an editor on the grouds that it is not "open source." But references do not have to be; its okay to list a book as a reference for example, even though a book must be purchased. Also, the current version has some polemical claims, i.e. that the AEL has at most a dozen activists, some under 18. -- Pierremenard 01:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Connections to terrorists: "More recently, the Dutch faction of the League issued an invitation to Pakistani extremist Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami, a group with known ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban, to speak at a congress center in the Netherlands. (Dutch officials subsequently refused to grant Ahmed an entry visa, citing national security concerns; the AEL blamed "the Zionist lobby" for the decision.) The AEL has issued public approvals of 9/11, pledged solidarity with Iraqi insurgents and has challenged new French measures to ban Muslim headscarves in public schools.""
Claims that the group is connected to violence in antwerp: "Belgian lawmakers contended that Jahjah posed a danger to the community of Antwerp."
Connections to anti-semitism: "In April 2002, enraged by Israel's massive military assault into the West Bank in response to a Palestinian terrorist attack, Moroccans and AEL members smashed the storefronts of Jewish-owned shops, calling for jihad and chanting "Osama bin Laden!"
Homophobia: "In 2003, almost a year after Pim Fortuyn's assassination, the league opened a Dutch chapter; soon after, Mohammed Cheppih was appointed to head it. But earlier statements from Cheppih supporting suicide bombers in Palestine and the death penalty for homosexuals provoked such an outcry that he was forced to step down. "
Moreover, Salon.com is clearly a reliable source per WP:RS. These allegations and connections have a documented place in the article. -- Pierremenard 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict:
Connections to terrorists: "More recently, the Dutch faction of the League issued an invitation to Pakistani extremist Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami, a group with known ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban, to speak at a congress center in the Netherlands. (Dutch officials subsequently refused to grant Ahmed an entry visa, citing national security concerns; the AEL blamed "the Zionist lobby" for the decision.) The AEL has issued public approvals of 9/11, pledged solidarity with Iraqi insurgents and has challenged new French measures to ban Muslim headscarves in public schools.""
Claims that the group is connected to violence in antwerp: "Belgian lawmakers contended that Jahjah posed a danger to the community of Antwerp."
Connections to anti-semitism: "In April 2002, enraged by Israel's massive military assault into the West Bank in response to a Palestinian terrorist attack, Moroccans and AEL members smashed the storefronts of Jewish-owned shops, calling for jihad and chanting "Osama bin Laden!"
Homophobia: "In 2003, almost a year after Pim Fortuyn's assassination, the league opened a Dutch chapter; soon after, Mohammed Cheppih was appointed to head it. But earlier statements from Cheppih supporting suicide bombers in Palestine and the death penalty for homosexuals provoked such an outcry that he was forced to step down. "
Moreover, Salon.com is clearly a reliable source per WP:RS. These allegations and connections have a documented place in the article. -- Pierremenard 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following. All possible POV should be removed. If anyone finds credible sources he may add new things. RoLeoVers 02:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, the article says they got less than 1% of the vote and this shows their support in the Muslim community is insignificant. But don't Muslims make up only 4-7% of the population in Belgium and the Netherlands? And how many are eligible to vote? 1% of the vote translates into at least 14%-25% support among Muslims, assuming voters for this party are predominantly Muslim, which is significant enough. So I think unless we have more concrete figures, that sentence ought to be removed. -- Pierremenard 02:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree, there's no reason to assess the level of support in Muslim community. I just left it to the facts of the outcome. -- 68.214.59.196 03:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see, the percentage was far smaller than 1%. Thanks for clearing that up! -- Pierremenard 03:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Every statement was sourced in detail. This ought to have addressed the concerns you've raised. Why did you revert? -- Pierremenard 02:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the POV. -- 68.214.59.196 03:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the page has increased enough to remove the POV tag. Anyone else that agrees? RoLeoVers 03:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that the introduction needs to mention the controversy surrounding this organization. Introductions are supposed to be short summaries of the article, and this one does not summarize the content. -- Pierremenard 04:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Translation is required only when the material is quoted in the article. -- Pierremenard 04:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The AEL of Abou Jahjah that is also active in the Netherlands heavely resists the plans of the Flemish green party Agalev to place posters of islamic dressed homosexual couples in the migrant parts of Antwerp. In a declaration, AEL calls this a "ridiculous, bad taste and provocing". The organization demands apologies of Agalev. If Agalev doesn't apologize, AEL will take further actions.
According to president Azzuz of AEL-Belgium the Qu'ran explicitly forbids homosexuality. "You cannot be a muslim and being homosexual and you can't be muslim and be an acoholic, according to Azzuz Thursday. "People may be gay, but they may not call themselves muslim then. We don't force anyone to be muslim, but islamic homosexuals don't exist, whatever a small group of alleged islamic homosexuals say. What Agalev now does, is a direct insult for our faith.
Azzuz doesn't want to say what further action he could take. "If they learn their lesson, they will see how we will react." According to the president of AEL-Belgium Agalev wants - that gained in the past a lot of votes from naturalized immigrants and also had a lot of migrant representatives in parliament - to gain votes after the election defeat in May. The party then lost all her seats in the Chamber. Azzuz: "Don't let them do stunts that hurts us."
Secretary Caals of Agalev-Antwerp doesn't say that it is yet decided to place the posters. "That's what the president of the youth organization, who is muslim and homosexual himself, wants to do. He wants to tackle the taboo that currently exists in Islam world and sees the posters as the best possibility, as something that is a little bit shocking. "Within the party we will keep talking. But we really want to do something about this taboo." Caals thinks the reaction of AEL happened "too soon". AEL plans a protest march in Brussel against the interdiction for muslim girls to wear head scarfs in the capital [Brussels] in different schools.
[Source: de Telegraaf 2003-09-09]
salon claims the AEL approved of the 9/11 attacks but the AEL's own website refers to the 9/11 attacks as "horrifying" attack. So it does not appear to be approving of it. That's why I say the Salon quote is an allegation. [2] -- 68.214.59.196 04:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
There are many words from AEL's own website that could be used to describe the group [3] but where do some editors prefer to find their material? In Israeli and homosex websites! I think that is why the article is so POV and slanted. -- 68.214.59.196 04:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently, a vote on the Muhammad cartoons talk page strongly favored a site design showing the cartoon page as an inline image in that entry (unfortunately, in somewhat poor resolution). Only a link to the AEL cartoons is currently provided, which are not currently accessible. If anyone can find these cartoons intact, I think that this entry should provide a similar fair use copy (at least) of the AEL cartoons to be fully informative and to emphasize Wikipedia's neutrality in its pursuit of the facts. Mike Serfas 21:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone does not like the term "jewish organizations" used in this sentence in the article: "A Dutch Jewish organization "Center for Information and Documentation Israel" filed a formal complaint in Amsterdam against the AEL following the publication of the cartoons. [5]" The link is from European Jewish Press and describes the Center for Information and Documentation Israel as a Jewish organization in the first line of the article. But our objectionable editor says that he is smarter than this source and there is no such thing as a Jewish organization. He could Google the term and see that there are many many many examples of Jewish organizations: [6] But he still thinks he is smarter than everyone else. What to do with such a stubborn editor?-- 68.211.66.29 02:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The VB party has never been sued for this. Three of its vzbs were found to be incontempt with the 1981 racism and xenophobia law. That's all there is to say. Intangible 18:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
We can't go around the facts, Vlaams Blok has been condemned for racism (even though they had to change the law to get this done), but going around advertising this each time the name Vlaams Blok appears (even where irrelevant) is considered POV by me. 1652186 19:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
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I suppressed the sentence and link about the support of the AEL towards the recent Iranian president's declarations about Israel: this is a stub of 2 small paragraphs about this organization, such precise considerations don't bring anything useful to the knowledge of the AEL, whose position towards Israel has been clear from its beginning. It reminds me of the article about the Bulgarian Turks' Movement for Rights and Freedoms where someone deemed of the utmost importance to stress and support the accusations of electoral fraud that have never been sustained by the ad hoc Electoral commission. Please note that I have no sympathy either for the AEL, Aminejad or Israel, but I'm afraid the person who added the recent text has more Zionist propagandist motivations than encyclopedic ones. -- Pylambert 16:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
This article does nothing but list a bill of particulars in attempt to villainize the AEL, without even giving a cursory glance at their side of the issues at hand (e.g., racist violence against Arabs across Europe). As such, it's going into the NPOV disputes category. Let someone who doesn't get all their information from FoxNews get a crack at it. -- Daniel 02:06, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I note that my insertion of the Salon link was reverted by an editor on the grouds that it is not "open source." But references do not have to be; its okay to list a book as a reference for example, even though a book must be purchased. Also, the current version has some polemical claims, i.e. that the AEL has at most a dozen activists, some under 18. -- Pierremenard 01:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Connections to terrorists: "More recently, the Dutch faction of the League issued an invitation to Pakistani extremist Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami, a group with known ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban, to speak at a congress center in the Netherlands. (Dutch officials subsequently refused to grant Ahmed an entry visa, citing national security concerns; the AEL blamed "the Zionist lobby" for the decision.) The AEL has issued public approvals of 9/11, pledged solidarity with Iraqi insurgents and has challenged new French measures to ban Muslim headscarves in public schools.""
Claims that the group is connected to violence in antwerp: "Belgian lawmakers contended that Jahjah posed a danger to the community of Antwerp."
Connections to anti-semitism: "In April 2002, enraged by Israel's massive military assault into the West Bank in response to a Palestinian terrorist attack, Moroccans and AEL members smashed the storefronts of Jewish-owned shops, calling for jihad and chanting "Osama bin Laden!"
Homophobia: "In 2003, almost a year after Pim Fortuyn's assassination, the league opened a Dutch chapter; soon after, Mohammed Cheppih was appointed to head it. But earlier statements from Cheppih supporting suicide bombers in Palestine and the death penalty for homosexuals provoked such an outcry that he was forced to step down. "
Moreover, Salon.com is clearly a reliable source per WP:RS. These allegations and connections have a documented place in the article. -- Pierremenard 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Edit conflict:
Connections to terrorists: "More recently, the Dutch faction of the League issued an invitation to Pakistani extremist Hussain Ahmed, leader of the Jamaat-e-Islami, a group with known ties to al-Qaida and the Taliban, to speak at a congress center in the Netherlands. (Dutch officials subsequently refused to grant Ahmed an entry visa, citing national security concerns; the AEL blamed "the Zionist lobby" for the decision.) The AEL has issued public approvals of 9/11, pledged solidarity with Iraqi insurgents and has challenged new French measures to ban Muslim headscarves in public schools.""
Claims that the group is connected to violence in antwerp: "Belgian lawmakers contended that Jahjah posed a danger to the community of Antwerp."
Connections to anti-semitism: "In April 2002, enraged by Israel's massive military assault into the West Bank in response to a Palestinian terrorist attack, Moroccans and AEL members smashed the storefronts of Jewish-owned shops, calling for jihad and chanting "Osama bin Laden!"
Homophobia: "In 2003, almost a year after Pim Fortuyn's assassination, the league opened a Dutch chapter; soon after, Mohammed Cheppih was appointed to head it. But earlier statements from Cheppih supporting suicide bombers in Palestine and the death penalty for homosexuals provoked such an outcry that he was forced to step down. "
Moreover, Salon.com is clearly a reliable source per WP:RS. These allegations and connections have a documented place in the article. -- Pierremenard 01:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I propose the following. All possible POV should be removed. If anyone finds credible sources he may add new things. RoLeoVers 02:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, the article says they got less than 1% of the vote and this shows their support in the Muslim community is insignificant. But don't Muslims make up only 4-7% of the population in Belgium and the Netherlands? And how many are eligible to vote? 1% of the vote translates into at least 14%-25% support among Muslims, assuming voters for this party are predominantly Muslim, which is significant enough. So I think unless we have more concrete figures, that sentence ought to be removed. -- Pierremenard 02:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree, there's no reason to assess the level of support in Muslim community. I just left it to the facts of the outcome. -- 68.214.59.196 03:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see, the percentage was far smaller than 1%. Thanks for clearing that up! -- Pierremenard 03:18, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Every statement was sourced in detail. This ought to have addressed the concerns you've raised. Why did you revert? -- Pierremenard 02:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the POV. -- 68.214.59.196 03:10, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the page has increased enough to remove the POV tag. Anyone else that agrees? RoLeoVers 03:32, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Seems to me that the introduction needs to mention the controversy surrounding this organization. Introductions are supposed to be short summaries of the article, and this one does not summarize the content. -- Pierremenard 04:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Translation is required only when the material is quoted in the article. -- Pierremenard 04:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
The AEL of Abou Jahjah that is also active in the Netherlands heavely resists the plans of the Flemish green party Agalev to place posters of islamic dressed homosexual couples in the migrant parts of Antwerp. In a declaration, AEL calls this a "ridiculous, bad taste and provocing". The organization demands apologies of Agalev. If Agalev doesn't apologize, AEL will take further actions.
According to president Azzuz of AEL-Belgium the Qu'ran explicitly forbids homosexuality. "You cannot be a muslim and being homosexual and you can't be muslim and be an acoholic, according to Azzuz Thursday. "People may be gay, but they may not call themselves muslim then. We don't force anyone to be muslim, but islamic homosexuals don't exist, whatever a small group of alleged islamic homosexuals say. What Agalev now does, is a direct insult for our faith.
Azzuz doesn't want to say what further action he could take. "If they learn their lesson, they will see how we will react." According to the president of AEL-Belgium Agalev wants - that gained in the past a lot of votes from naturalized immigrants and also had a lot of migrant representatives in parliament - to gain votes after the election defeat in May. The party then lost all her seats in the Chamber. Azzuz: "Don't let them do stunts that hurts us."
Secretary Caals of Agalev-Antwerp doesn't say that it is yet decided to place the posters. "That's what the president of the youth organization, who is muslim and homosexual himself, wants to do. He wants to tackle the taboo that currently exists in Islam world and sees the posters as the best possibility, as something that is a little bit shocking. "Within the party we will keep talking. But we really want to do something about this taboo." Caals thinks the reaction of AEL happened "too soon". AEL plans a protest march in Brussel against the interdiction for muslim girls to wear head scarfs in the capital [Brussels] in different schools.
[Source: de Telegraaf 2003-09-09]
salon claims the AEL approved of the 9/11 attacks but the AEL's own website refers to the 9/11 attacks as "horrifying" attack. So it does not appear to be approving of it. That's why I say the Salon quote is an allegation. [2] -- 68.214.59.196 04:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
There are many words from AEL's own website that could be used to describe the group [3] but where do some editors prefer to find their material? In Israeli and homosex websites! I think that is why the article is so POV and slanted. -- 68.214.59.196 04:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Recently, a vote on the Muhammad cartoons talk page strongly favored a site design showing the cartoon page as an inline image in that entry (unfortunately, in somewhat poor resolution). Only a link to the AEL cartoons is currently provided, which are not currently accessible. If anyone can find these cartoons intact, I think that this entry should provide a similar fair use copy (at least) of the AEL cartoons to be fully informative and to emphasize Wikipedia's neutrality in its pursuit of the facts. Mike Serfas 21:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone does not like the term "jewish organizations" used in this sentence in the article: "A Dutch Jewish organization "Center for Information and Documentation Israel" filed a formal complaint in Amsterdam against the AEL following the publication of the cartoons. [5]" The link is from European Jewish Press and describes the Center for Information and Documentation Israel as a Jewish organization in the first line of the article. But our objectionable editor says that he is smarter than this source and there is no such thing as a Jewish organization. He could Google the term and see that there are many many many examples of Jewish organizations: [6] But he still thinks he is smarter than everyone else. What to do with such a stubborn editor?-- 68.211.66.29 02:13, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The VB party has never been sued for this. Three of its vzbs were found to be incontempt with the 1981 racism and xenophobia law. That's all there is to say. Intangible 18:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
We can't go around the facts, Vlaams Blok has been condemned for racism (even though they had to change the law to get this done), but going around advertising this each time the name Vlaams Blok appears (even where irrelevant) is considered POV by me. 1652186 19:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
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