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As explained and reffed on Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, in the United Kingdom sharia tribunals do NOT make legally binding decisions the way courts do, ie can NOT marry and divorce as to change personal status under UK law. The Sharia councils' decisions are no more binding that a contract between the parties. Littledogboy ( talk) 19:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, contracts between two people are binding too! But if married by a sharia council in the UK, you are still single under UK law. What sharia councils can do, for example, is to rule on how to divide someone's estate between the heirs. The heirs meet up, and the council can decide it for them – but this is only valid insofar as they all accept it; inherently, no more than if they signed a contract between them. So, the councils definitelly may not adjudicate in personal status matters, merely act as alternative dispute resolution, which private companies can do as well. Besides, they may not apply sharia law, if this constituted a breach of UK law. Littledogboy ( talk) 12:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, I stand corrected, they do not deal with marriages but grant islamic divorces, and also mediate disputes. What I am saying is, whatever they conduct has no bearing on one's legal personal status – no more then of I tell you: You are now divorced. Re marriages, although polygamy is prohibited by law in the UK, if you are in an Islamic marriage, you can still legally marry someone else in civil marrige in this country. Littledogboy ( talk) 12:25, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Very interesting aricle you link to, Mr, and these quotes it contains:
1/ "It is right that agreements decided privately in family cases must be authorised by a judge applying English law if they are to have any legal effect." — shadow justice secretary Nick Herbert.
2/ "Sharia law has no jurisdiction in England and Wales and the government has no intention to change this position." — a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Justice.
Ergo: Yes, sharia councils can operate as ADR, but may not apply sharia law.
Littledogboy ( talk) 14:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you have a point there, but I think you would be redefinining the list by adding the UK, as we have asked a different question here: In which non-muslim countries are you legally free to choose a sharia-based arbitrator (or mediator) equally to any other arbitrator, and where is this expressly outlawed. The Economist [3] seems to suggest the USA belongs to the former, for example! Also, we are opening another question: In which countries it forms a de-facto parallel legal system, ie although they have no official legal basis, people still abide by such rulings [4]. Those are complicated questions we have run into, and interesting methinks.
The colour in the map is misleading, though, as sharia councils can not change your personal status, ie they can not rule on personal status issues. Littledogboy ( talk) 16:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
In the UK cannot rule on divorce! Cannot divorce a marriage valid in the face of English law. Littledogboy ( talk) 21:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Again, no bearing on personal status in the UK. Personal status = single / divorced; pronouncement by an islamic tribunal: no change. On the other hand, "Recognition of full Talaqs performed overseas [...] will be recognised if either spouse was: [...] a national of that country." [6] My understanding: Talaq will change your UK personal status only if performed in, say, Pakistan, but not if performed in the UK. How else to look at it? Littledogboy ( talk) 04:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Why does this article portray the UK as both grey (on the map) and red (in the legend)? Seems like one should be changed to be in concurrence with the other. 2001:983:BBCF:1:8DFE:16FA:A0A6:54CA ( talk) 12:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
in the map sharia in the world, (if you click and enlarge the map) appears that Guayana and Suriname are: Muslim-majority countries and members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation where sharia plays no role in the judicial system, but they are not! The percent of muslim population in these countries is 7% in Guayana and 13,9% in Suriname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.67.124.226 ( talk) 21:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
User at 62.232.16.82 - I have kept your constructive edits, but removed offtopic stuff. The Kuwait reference must be read in its context, which is commercial and trade related. It is not a reliable source for criminal and civil laws for Kuwait. Your contributions are welcome, but please do not delete citations. Let us discuss your concerns on this talk page. RLoutfy ( talk) 16:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
About the recent changes to the entry for Morocco, I have found a copy of the Moroccan Penal Code, which I assume is up to date with the latest developments. The articles 220-221, which are all cited in the article, criminalise perceivedly unislamic behaviour such as breaking fast publicly during ramadan or proselytising while "exploiting the weakness" of others. But they don't apply any sharia provision in doing so, given that the punishments (a fine or up to six months in prison) have no basis under any interpretation of Islamic law. (From a rapid Google search there doesn't seem to be a prescribed punishment for breaking fast in the hadith, other than hellfire). I don't see how they're relevant in an article titled "application of sharia law by country", they might be worth discussing in other places such as Human rights in Morocco, but not here. @ RLoutfy:-- eh bien mon prince ( talk) 12:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Neither does the article version over the last few days. The article reads, "Article 222 of its new criminal code is derived from Islamic law." Leon Buskens source states, "Article 222 is one of the few stipulations of the criminal code that explicitly refers to a norm derived from Islamic law." Will you be okay if we rephrase the current wording in this article to, "Article 222 of Morocco's criminal code, states Leon Buskens, explicitly refers to a norm derived from sharia"? RLoutfy ( talk) 20:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Underlying lk: - you removed the controversy section, with this edit. I had added this because the article uses the term 'secular' later, and the context of this word is unclear. We can do one of three things - (a) scrub the entire article of the word secular, because as you put it, "this article is about whether, and to what extent, sharia is applied in a given country;"; (b) include the controversies section to help clarify the context of word "secular" used later in the article (and may be re-introduced/used in future versions of this article by other editors); or (c) clarify the term's multiple meanings in another way. What are your thoughts? RLoutfy ( talk) 20:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I love the use of colour through this article for a person like me, who likes to use this to define sections. I do, however, believe that this might inhibit people whose accessibility issues might be prohibitive in gaining the meanings of the colours. I suggest that each colour be supplemented with a letter or number key with which to further disambiguate each of the stati so that everybody can benefit from reading through this page. -- 150.101.222.216 ( talk) 03:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
The three regions have passed laws, as attested by the cited sources. This is notable and relevant to the topic. For balance and neutral point of view, we should include, and the article does include, that the regional laws face federal opposition and challenge. The lack of implementation needs better source, not opinion of a political party. RLoutfy ( talk) 05:24, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should "application of sharia" in this article include "legal code that applies parts of and norms derived from sharia"?
The context for the dispute and discussion can be found on talk page here; and therein, the terms sharia, Islamic law and religious law of Islam are synonymous. RLoutfy ( talk) 13:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Notes: (a) See clarification of question below (bolded to help find it) (b) (User: Underlying lk | eh bien mon prince) and (User: RLoutfy) are parties to the dispute.
Not to scholars. See Jan Otto's other papers, and Yasrul Huda's publication, for example. Even Abdullahi An-Na'im acknowledges that many Muslim nations have been busy legislating parts of sharia as positive law. RLoutfy ( talk) 02:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
In Greece sharia law applies in civil law issues (marriage, inheritance etc) for the muslim minority of Western Thrace, I think it shouldbe added on the catalogue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.45.67 ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
-- Qizilbash123 ( talk) 10:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Why is Bosnia shown as a "Member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation" when in the linkthrough to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation the country is shown as only an observer? By this stretch, Russia might as well be a 'member'. Either that or Bosnia needs to be removed. Are there others? This needs to be revised.
As the article explains, Sharia is only optional and people can choose if they want a civil law court or sharia law court as such it doesn't seem fitting to use the same colour as Malaysia where Muslims have to go to sharia courts and cannot go to secular courts. Wouldn't it be more fitting to use another colour for Indonesia? Gati123 ( talk) 10:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Sharia means "Islamic law". Saying "Sharia law" is redundant. Therefore, I'm moving this to "Application of Islamic law by country", though "Application of Sharia by country" would also be a valid title. Bless sins ( talk) 08:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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In this removal of content from the article, Edrussia567, the citation (also removed) still supports the material about Algerian law. If the law has changed since '09 or so (the apparent date of the State Department document cited), a new cite with the new status would seem the better edit. Just removing the old status seems a step backwards; particularly with the unsupported assertion in the Edit summary. If I were in the situation of knowing a fact was outdated and having no possibility of finding a cite to show the update, I think I'd put in the best statement of the new status I could along with {{Citation needed|date=December 2016}} (and leaving the old status in the article, with its cite, for historical value). I'm glad to consider this in different ways and would appreciate response. Thanks for your contributions. Swliv ( talk) 01:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
First citation is bad, can anyone find the original? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bidimaker ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Aceh 2009 law implementing Islamic law was vetoed by the governor and did not become effective. So I removed reference to this law from the article [7]. RS'es confirming this: ... the provincial administration under then governor Irwandi Yusuf refused to sign or implement the bylaw (Jakarta Post) or The measure was not approved by the governor and so it has been unenforceable (paper in the Journal of Islamic Studies), provided as requested by Eperoton in his edit summary. Besides, I'm working on Islamic criminal law in Aceh which hopefully will shed more clarity on the subject. HaEr48 ( talk) 04:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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"Sharia is part of Germany's private law through the regulations of the German international private law. It applies to people with nationalities from countries using Sharia. Its application is limited by the ordre public."
This is a gross misrepresentation of what the source actually says. The Sharia is most definitely not "part of Germany's private law", and
international private law is not German but, as the name implies, international law. The source comments on a minor legal technicality that, in my view, has no place in this article.
Does anyone want to defend this entry or can we just delete it? --
EnOreg (
talk)
16:11, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I object to the current phrasing. "may" is inocrrect because the application of the law is obligatory. Also the application is not limited to marriage laws but potentially covers all of what is determenied in the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch. -- Cwbm (commons) ( talk) 14:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Myanmar is on the map as orange, meaning regional variation. Yet there is no reference to either Myanmar or Burma in the article. Not in text, not in tables. I suppose this is because the article uses two systems or organization, one by region and the other by degree of Sharia applicability. In any case the current crisis in Myanmar makes this a serious omission.
the map featured on the article has not been updated since 2017, several changes have taken place since then, such as sudan abolishing sharia law and state religion entirely, i dont know the procces but if possible could someone update the file to have it include relevant information regarding the topic. -Nickknee, 22 August 2021
Germany should be changed from gray to yellow, as sharia law is the only option non-citizen permanent Muslim residents have in family matters. The legal system of Germany despite being well known ever since the end of WW2, as a very Westernized and liberal one, is in fact less secular than many Muslim countries like for example Turkey, Uzbekistan, and even sometimes like more orthodox Muslim countries such as Sudan or Chad because of the many German Muslims who are forbidden the right to secular family legal matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Otis the Texan ( talk • contribs) 00:27, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Any idea where this country would fit in the table? SpamHunters ( talk) 07:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
India has Shariah for Muslims for personal status issues. Can the map be updated? 2600:1003:B115:DA6B:1157:AC4A:6301:3BF1 ( talk) 17:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
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Application of Sharia by country article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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As explained and reffed on Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, in the United Kingdom sharia tribunals do NOT make legally binding decisions the way courts do, ie can NOT marry and divorce as to change personal status under UK law. The Sharia councils' decisions are no more binding that a contract between the parties. Littledogboy ( talk) 19:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Well, contracts between two people are binding too! But if married by a sharia council in the UK, you are still single under UK law. What sharia councils can do, for example, is to rule on how to divide someone's estate between the heirs. The heirs meet up, and the council can decide it for them – but this is only valid insofar as they all accept it; inherently, no more than if they signed a contract between them. So, the councils definitelly may not adjudicate in personal status matters, merely act as alternative dispute resolution, which private companies can do as well. Besides, they may not apply sharia law, if this constituted a breach of UK law. Littledogboy ( talk) 12:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
OK, I stand corrected, they do not deal with marriages but grant islamic divorces, and also mediate disputes. What I am saying is, whatever they conduct has no bearing on one's legal personal status – no more then of I tell you: You are now divorced. Re marriages, although polygamy is prohibited by law in the UK, if you are in an Islamic marriage, you can still legally marry someone else in civil marrige in this country. Littledogboy ( talk) 12:25, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Very interesting aricle you link to, Mr, and these quotes it contains:
1/ "It is right that agreements decided privately in family cases must be authorised by a judge applying English law if they are to have any legal effect." — shadow justice secretary Nick Herbert.
2/ "Sharia law has no jurisdiction in England and Wales and the government has no intention to change this position." — a spokeswoman for the Ministry of Justice.
Ergo: Yes, sharia councils can operate as ADR, but may not apply sharia law.
Littledogboy ( talk) 14:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes, you have a point there, but I think you would be redefinining the list by adding the UK, as we have asked a different question here: In which non-muslim countries are you legally free to choose a sharia-based arbitrator (or mediator) equally to any other arbitrator, and where is this expressly outlawed. The Economist [3] seems to suggest the USA belongs to the former, for example! Also, we are opening another question: In which countries it forms a de-facto parallel legal system, ie although they have no official legal basis, people still abide by such rulings [4]. Those are complicated questions we have run into, and interesting methinks.
The colour in the map is misleading, though, as sharia councils can not change your personal status, ie they can not rule on personal status issues. Littledogboy ( talk) 16:47, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
In the UK cannot rule on divorce! Cannot divorce a marriage valid in the face of English law. Littledogboy ( talk) 21:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Again, no bearing on personal status in the UK. Personal status = single / divorced; pronouncement by an islamic tribunal: no change. On the other hand, "Recognition of full Talaqs performed overseas [...] will be recognised if either spouse was: [...] a national of that country." [6] My understanding: Talaq will change your UK personal status only if performed in, say, Pakistan, but not if performed in the UK. How else to look at it? Littledogboy ( talk) 04:08, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Why does this article portray the UK as both grey (on the map) and red (in the legend)? Seems like one should be changed to be in concurrence with the other. 2001:983:BBCF:1:8DFE:16FA:A0A6:54CA ( talk) 12:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
in the map sharia in the world, (if you click and enlarge the map) appears that Guayana and Suriname are: Muslim-majority countries and members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation where sharia plays no role in the judicial system, but they are not! The percent of muslim population in these countries is 7% in Guayana and 13,9% in Suriname. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.67.124.226 ( talk) 21:35, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
User at 62.232.16.82 - I have kept your constructive edits, but removed offtopic stuff. The Kuwait reference must be read in its context, which is commercial and trade related. It is not a reliable source for criminal and civil laws for Kuwait. Your contributions are welcome, but please do not delete citations. Let us discuss your concerns on this talk page. RLoutfy ( talk) 16:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
About the recent changes to the entry for Morocco, I have found a copy of the Moroccan Penal Code, which I assume is up to date with the latest developments. The articles 220-221, which are all cited in the article, criminalise perceivedly unislamic behaviour such as breaking fast publicly during ramadan or proselytising while "exploiting the weakness" of others. But they don't apply any sharia provision in doing so, given that the punishments (a fine or up to six months in prison) have no basis under any interpretation of Islamic law. (From a rapid Google search there doesn't seem to be a prescribed punishment for breaking fast in the hadith, other than hellfire). I don't see how they're relevant in an article titled "application of sharia law by country", they might be worth discussing in other places such as Human rights in Morocco, but not here. @ RLoutfy:-- eh bien mon prince ( talk) 12:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Neither does the article version over the last few days. The article reads, "Article 222 of its new criminal code is derived from Islamic law." Leon Buskens source states, "Article 222 is one of the few stipulations of the criminal code that explicitly refers to a norm derived from Islamic law." Will you be okay if we rephrase the current wording in this article to, "Article 222 of Morocco's criminal code, states Leon Buskens, explicitly refers to a norm derived from sharia"? RLoutfy ( talk) 20:11, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
@ Underlying lk: - you removed the controversy section, with this edit. I had added this because the article uses the term 'secular' later, and the context of this word is unclear. We can do one of three things - (a) scrub the entire article of the word secular, because as you put it, "this article is about whether, and to what extent, sharia is applied in a given country;"; (b) include the controversies section to help clarify the context of word "secular" used later in the article (and may be re-introduced/used in future versions of this article by other editors); or (c) clarify the term's multiple meanings in another way. What are your thoughts? RLoutfy ( talk) 20:40, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
I love the use of colour through this article for a person like me, who likes to use this to define sections. I do, however, believe that this might inhibit people whose accessibility issues might be prohibitive in gaining the meanings of the colours. I suggest that each colour be supplemented with a letter or number key with which to further disambiguate each of the stati so that everybody can benefit from reading through this page. -- 150.101.222.216 ( talk) 03:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
The three regions have passed laws, as attested by the cited sources. This is notable and relevant to the topic. For balance and neutral point of view, we should include, and the article does include, that the regional laws face federal opposition and challenge. The lack of implementation needs better source, not opinion of a political party. RLoutfy ( talk) 05:24, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should "application of sharia" in this article include "legal code that applies parts of and norms derived from sharia"?
The context for the dispute and discussion can be found on talk page here; and therein, the terms sharia, Islamic law and religious law of Islam are synonymous. RLoutfy ( talk) 13:54, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Notes: (a) See clarification of question below (bolded to help find it) (b) (User: Underlying lk | eh bien mon prince) and (User: RLoutfy) are parties to the dispute.
Not to scholars. See Jan Otto's other papers, and Yasrul Huda's publication, for example. Even Abdullahi An-Na'im acknowledges that many Muslim nations have been busy legislating parts of sharia as positive law. RLoutfy ( talk) 02:01, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
In Greece sharia law applies in civil law issues (marriage, inheritance etc) for the muslim minority of Western Thrace, I think it shouldbe added on the catalogue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.45.67 ( talk) 14:18, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
-- Qizilbash123 ( talk) 10:48, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Why is Bosnia shown as a "Member of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation" when in the linkthrough to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation the country is shown as only an observer? By this stretch, Russia might as well be a 'member'. Either that or Bosnia needs to be removed. Are there others? This needs to be revised.
As the article explains, Sharia is only optional and people can choose if they want a civil law court or sharia law court as such it doesn't seem fitting to use the same colour as Malaysia where Muslims have to go to sharia courts and cannot go to secular courts. Wouldn't it be more fitting to use another colour for Indonesia? Gati123 ( talk) 10:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Sharia means "Islamic law". Saying "Sharia law" is redundant. Therefore, I'm moving this to "Application of Islamic law by country", though "Application of Sharia by country" would also be a valid title. Bless sins ( talk) 08:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
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In this removal of content from the article, Edrussia567, the citation (also removed) still supports the material about Algerian law. If the law has changed since '09 or so (the apparent date of the State Department document cited), a new cite with the new status would seem the better edit. Just removing the old status seems a step backwards; particularly with the unsupported assertion in the Edit summary. If I were in the situation of knowing a fact was outdated and having no possibility of finding a cite to show the update, I think I'd put in the best statement of the new status I could along with {{Citation needed|date=December 2016}} (and leaving the old status in the article, with its cite, for historical value). I'm glad to consider this in different ways and would appreciate response. Thanks for your contributions. Swliv ( talk) 01:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
First citation is bad, can anyone find the original? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bidimaker ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
Aceh 2009 law implementing Islamic law was vetoed by the governor and did not become effective. So I removed reference to this law from the article [7]. RS'es confirming this: ... the provincial administration under then governor Irwandi Yusuf refused to sign or implement the bylaw (Jakarta Post) or The measure was not approved by the governor and so it has been unenforceable (paper in the Journal of Islamic Studies), provided as requested by Eperoton in his edit summary. Besides, I'm working on Islamic criminal law in Aceh which hopefully will shed more clarity on the subject. HaEr48 ( talk) 04:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
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"Sharia is part of Germany's private law through the regulations of the German international private law. It applies to people with nationalities from countries using Sharia. Its application is limited by the ordre public."
This is a gross misrepresentation of what the source actually says. The Sharia is most definitely not "part of Germany's private law", and
international private law is not German but, as the name implies, international law. The source comments on a minor legal technicality that, in my view, has no place in this article.
Does anyone want to defend this entry or can we just delete it? --
EnOreg (
talk)
16:11, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
I object to the current phrasing. "may" is inocrrect because the application of the law is obligatory. Also the application is not limited to marriage laws but potentially covers all of what is determenied in the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch. -- Cwbm (commons) ( talk) 14:26, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Myanmar is on the map as orange, meaning regional variation. Yet there is no reference to either Myanmar or Burma in the article. Not in text, not in tables. I suppose this is because the article uses two systems or organization, one by region and the other by degree of Sharia applicability. In any case the current crisis in Myanmar makes this a serious omission.
the map featured on the article has not been updated since 2017, several changes have taken place since then, such as sudan abolishing sharia law and state religion entirely, i dont know the procces but if possible could someone update the file to have it include relevant information regarding the topic. -Nickknee, 22 August 2021
Germany should be changed from gray to yellow, as sharia law is the only option non-citizen permanent Muslim residents have in family matters. The legal system of Germany despite being well known ever since the end of WW2, as a very Westernized and liberal one, is in fact less secular than many Muslim countries like for example Turkey, Uzbekistan, and even sometimes like more orthodox Muslim countries such as Sudan or Chad because of the many German Muslims who are forbidden the right to secular family legal matters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Otis the Texan ( talk • contribs) 00:27, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
Any idea where this country would fit in the table? SpamHunters ( talk) 07:50, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
India has Shariah for Muslims for personal status issues. Can the map be updated? 2600:1003:B115:DA6B:1157:AC4A:6301:3BF1 ( talk) 17:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)