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Older discussions about apartheid has been moved to:
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I've removed "European Jews" as 18th century settlers of South Africa. No reason to give them special mention, any more than we distinguish between Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans when we mention the German settlement. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
--The Jews themselves view their settlement in S. Africa as distinct from the Dutch, English, etc. See Jewish Virtual Library
Located on the tip of the African continent, South Africa is famous for its diamond and gold mines. Cape Town, South Africa’s first city, was founded in 1652 by the Dutch to provide fresh produce and meats to the members of the Dutch East India Company, who were traveling between Europe and the Orient. In 1806, the colony switched hands and became part of the British Empire. Discoveries of gold and diamonds changed South Africa from an agricultural society to modern metropolis.
Jews have been a part of South Africa’s development from the very beginning. Portuguese Jewish cartographers and scientists contributed to Vasco Da Gama’s discovery of the Cape of Good Hope in 1497. A number of non-professing Jews were among the first settlers of Cape Town in 1652, despite restrictions against the immigration of non-Christians.
Religious freedom was granted by the Dutch colony in 1803 and guaranteed by the British in 1806. Among the first British settlers to come to Cape Town were 20 Jews. The first South African Jewish congregation was founded in 1841 in one of the homes of the new British settlers. Eight years later, the first synagogue, Tikvat Israel ("Hope of Israel" - referring to the Cape of Good Hope) was established in Cape Town and is still standing today.
Jews prospered during the apartheid era and were more educated than their white counterparts. More than 50 percent of the Jews were matriculated, compared to the average 23% in the total white population. Ten percent of the Jewish community had university degrees, compared to only 4% of the total white population. Jews were disproportionately represented in the commercial and financial sectors of society. The Jewish population peaked in the early 1970's reaching nearly 119,000 people. [1]
Nobody is singling out anybody. It's being more accurate and inclusive. It is the Jews themselves that saw themselves as distinct from the English, Dutch, Germans, etc. Would it be more accurate to say Lithuanian Jews? like the South African Jews do amongst themselves? In being inclusive and factual, it does not overemphasize anything, that is only your interpretation. 119,000 people is not "miniscule". It sounds like you are being anti-semitic in diminishing the accomplishments and contributions of Jewish people to South African history. S. Africa's Jewish community has always been one that Jewish people have taken pride in. There were many White people involved in anti-apartheid activities on a worldwide basis. The emigration of Jews out of South Africa is directly and statistically correlated to the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of. Let's not make a special exception here. History is history and "Jews" were involved in apartheid right alongside the "Dutch", "English", and "Germans". 69.216.245.115
I might also point out the large number of Whites worldwide that contributed to the "anti-apartheid" movement. Remember Bono? And what about the Blacks themselves? Gee. Jayjg: To me you sound rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jews in ending apartheid, but of having no part in it. We all know that is not. 69.216.245.115
What bias are you trying to hide? South Africa had and contiues to have a "Jewish" community just like the "English", "Dutch", French" and "Germans". Why is this fact of history objectionable to you? There are thousands of sources that prove this true. Why do you object to this inclusion as outlined in the one sentence above?
It is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. 69.216.246.88 21:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Anon editor, you are being overbearing now. Trying to highlight Jews, a relative minority compared to the major settlers (highlighted by Impi and the other editors here), is simply presenting a skewed image. THAT is the reason why your edits are being reverted, not some evil deletionist strategy. Dewet 22:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen: Overbearing is better applied to those who would delete and deny the existence and reference of the Jewish community in South African history. It is not anywhere near "unworkable" to include the European Jews, along with the Italian, Irish, Polish, and Portuguese, if you like, in the one sentence in the article. Please.
It is absolutely accurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. If you want to read something more into these words and simple facts, then that is your POV. 69.216.246.88
19th Century
The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields.
First Half of the 20th Century
During the Boer War, Jews served on both sides, although the arrival of English Jews helped out the British side. Some Boers harbored prejudices against the Jews, while others felt a kinship toward them. In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens, giving British authority legitimacy among Jews.
Following the mining boom, Jews became part of the rapid industrialization of South Africa. They became involved in food processing; clothing, textile and furniture manufacturing; insurance; hotel management; advertising and entertainment. Jews also established supermarkets, department stores and discount store chains.
Protected due to the revert war. If this can be resolved, or the problematic parties removed from the situation, feel free to unprotect, but if I understand correctly blocking might not be adequate to deal with this one? -- Michael Snow 20:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, enough already. You don't "see the point", because you have a POV or a blind spot or something. The contributions of Jews to South Africa are numerous. Jews make up a minority/small percentage of every single country in which they dwell but Israel, but should we not acknowledge their contributions and presence in the histories of the USA? Britain? Canada?, Germany? etc? Jayjg, you are so POV it is laughable. On Wikipedia you want to push a POV that is Jewish-centric when you think it helps your bias, and you want to deny and revise on other occasions like this one.
The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. The Jews themselves saw their community as strong and distinct from the Europeans. Fact and History. That's the way it was. Reread history and I have provided you a Jewish source! So please stop the denial and revisionist history. See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html Jewish Virtual Library] again:
Apartheid Regime
With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities. 69.218.25.182 21:58, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Humus sapiens: You do not have a crystal ball into the minds of others. Do you want me to give you my opinion of you? You have revealed yourself in the denier and revisionist camp. Your Talk page proves your huge preoccupation with the Jews, and it tells more about yourself than about your knowledge of S. African history. Your opinion is thus discredited for bias. Let's stick to the facts and history of S. Africa's economic and political history, which involves Jews every bit as much as the current list of: "Dutch, English, Germans, and French". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. Reread the links and highlighted facts above. Thank you. 69.209.236.191 19:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
You again? Are you back from today's shuffleboard game? Thanks for all your laughs. Jayjg, whoever you are, you (and the "gang" that circumvents Wikipedia's 3R Rules) are the ones preoccupied with Jews and weaving Jewish distortion and revision into Wikipedia, as your Talk page and Wikipedia editing activities confirm. Are you going to deny this also? Denial of Jewish history in S. Africa, as outlined in the link provided, is just not factual and it will not fly, sorry. 69.209.236.191 23:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Impi: you again? I was hoping for an unbiased, third-party contributor and not another one of your POV buddies. I can see this is going nowhere fast. You continue to avoid and evade the matter at hand: Kindly provide any reasonable evidence that the Jewish community was not an integral part of S. Africa's economic and political landscape as the inclusion states. Let's review the inclusion: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, Diaspora Jews and other European settlers followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth."
Why cannot you grasp that this is inclusive and accurate? S. Africa was settled by Dutch, Germans, French, English, other Europeans (Irish, Portuguese, Italians) and Diaspora Jews. Is this not a fact? What is your problem? It is not accurate to include Diaspora Jews in with the "Europeans" because history proves they were considered separate and distinct as an ethnic & religious group, it is confirmed by Jewish history and S. African history. Were there not different laws for "Europeans" and Jews in S. African history (answer: Yes), and then later the Jewish community was classified White during apartheid (answer: Yes)?
So: 1) They were seen as separate and distinct groups, so the inclusion is accurate and clear. 2) you cannot whitewash the activity and everyday complicity of the Jewish community during apartheid, right alongside the rest of the list of distinct groups. The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system. They were complicit in it. 69.209.236.29 20:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
More lame POV responses from jayjg (who is heavily towards Jewish bias User:Jayjg/Edits) and Impi--Again. Yawn. How predictable. Let us never hear about a sublist of of "Jewish" Nobel Prize winners ever again. From now on they will all be Europeans or Americans, etc. Your deletions are obviously not in good faith and are obviously biased. 69.209.236.29 21:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Impi: you again? Yawn. jayjg is obsessed with jewish related issues on Wikipedia User:Jayjg/Edits. SlimVirgin has been accused of the same by others. It is not unusual to find them together operating as a team to avoid Wikipedia's 3 Revert rule. They are discredited. But back to the inclusion at hand......I have yet to have anyone explain why "europeans" and "diaspora jews" should be combined when it's clear that the communities were different and distinct. Let's not even get into the relationship between S. Africa and Israel and S. African Zionists. The "European" settlers and Jewish settlers were distinct groups and you know it. 69.217.125.53 20:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ad hominem attacks, you should know. Impi you have provided no back-up for your deletion. None whatsoever. Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Please answer the question.
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens.
Apartheid Regime
With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system 69.217.125.53 19:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century."
That's it. So......in other words if the term "European settlers" stays in, then someone might not otherwise know that S. Africa had an important, thriving Jewish community also. To list the Jewish community alongside the other groups is being factual and inclusive, and it's adding clarity to the article. How can you not see that? You have to look at the statement/change itself. Since when is adding minor clarity (2 words) to an article a massive rewrite or throwing it off NPOV? It is not. It adds simple, concise and accurate clarity and you know it. Read the sentence again. I believe you are reading far too much into it. The Jewish community existed, separate and distinct from the Dutch, Germans, French, English and other Europeans. You know it. How is that so objectionable? It's being clear. A Jewish community did exist and does exist, separate and distinct, and that's all the 2 word Inclusion states. AmYisrael 00:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jewish settlers in south africa had to profess their allegiance to Christianity. However, after 1803, they were free to express their religion. Numbers have the jews at around 100,000 in the 70 and 80's population of s. africa. Apartied policies could not have been influenced by such a small population of people. To make such allegations without substantial proof is borderline criminal. Your anti-semitic issues are prevelant. Here is a short list of aparteid leaders, please tell me which are jewish: President PW Botha, J.B.M. Hertzog, DF Malan, J.G. Strijdom, H.F. Verwoerd, B.J. Vorster.
In contrast, historically, the afrikaaners were german sympathizers post ww2. One with an intelligent understanding of geopolitics could easily see the anglo-saxon(german) racial bias, ie: nazi type ideology. Pro christian, pro white. To say jews were outright leaders of aparteid would contradict history. My personal opinion, you are trying to tie in racial prejudice of the aparteid regime to the current Israeli political status, very devious. -- PrinceMarko 14:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As there seems to be no ongoing meaningful discussion here, I'm unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:34, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Until the deletionist can justify that action, the inclusion should remain in place as it is accurate. Deletionist: Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Thank you.
Dewet: Likewise. I see that nobody can or will justify the deletion campaign other than based on ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to the facts, not ad hominem attacks. So again: Facts have been put forward to justify the Inclusion, no facts have been put forward to justify the Deletions. AmYisrael 21:45, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
More ad hominem nonsense. Jpgordon stick to the facts and kindly stop personal attacks. The consensus is based on ad hominem illogic as there is no support put forth to support the Deletions, just personal attacks.
It seems to me that the person commenting on the Jewish diaspora in South Africa at the time of apartied has a bias against them. Historically, the jews in south africa have been very very few. To insinuate that they were major players in Apartied is juvenile.
"Persons of Jewish descent found their way to the Cape from the earliest beginnings of white settlement. However, they could not be professing Jews before the beginning of the 19th century because the Dutch East India Company's rules required that all who were in its service at the Cape must profess the Reformed Christian religion. Only after freedom of religion was introduced at the Cape under the Batavian republic in 1803 was it possible for anyone who openly professed his/her adherence to the Jewish faith to live in the country.
From that time onwards a small trickle of individual Jews, for the most part from England and Germany, began to arrive. Some remained permanently, while others later returned to their home countries. There were among them colourful and adventurous personalities.
In 1841, seventeen Jews organised the first Hebrew Congregation in Cape Town. They named it Tikvat Israel Congregation (the Hope of Israel). By the end of the 1860s, several hundred Jews were living in South Africa. They played a significant part in cultural and civic life and added materially to the country's economic progress. Some had settled in remote places. A number lost their identity as Jews."
Only around 100,000 jews were in South Africa during the 70's and 80's. Such numbers cannot even begin to influence a society enmasse, especially on social/political issues. PrinceMarko
According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority. Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30
AmYisrael 00:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
jpgordon, provide your reasoning for Deletions. Two words added to the article provide clarity that would not otherwise exist. Other European settlers and Diaspora Jews should not be combined. Why should they? Be an inclusionist. Wikipedia should not be changed if it means knowledge will be lost (unnecessary deletions). The subject at hand (deletion) on this article reduces the clarity and diminishes facts. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, it is not limited in size. Unless you can provide any basis for the Deletionism, it will not stand. There is nothing objectionable about the facts: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century." That statement is TRUE. Provide any basis for saying it is untrue, before you Delete. AmYisrael 14:04, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
jpgordon, Let's recap the following, since you have misunderstood Wikipedia:
Now, are you trying to tell me that a group of Deletionists, that have not proven the Inclusion untrue.....makes the Inclusion False? The Inclusion is fact and it is true, and it should not be removed due to bias. Until the Inclusion is proven false, it should remain. Wikipedia is about seeking the facts, not protecting consensual or systemic bias. Reread again jpgordon. Unless the Inclusion is false, which it is not, it should remain. Using the rationale of the Deletionists, we might as well remove the French from the list, and also the Germans, and "other European settlers". This is not a good idea, as it deletes fact and history. The Diaspora Jewish community is significantly distinct from the others on the list, and it ought not be deleted. AmYisrael 14:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Deletionists are disputing the following statement: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century." This statement is true, and it therefore should not be deleted. 69.217.125.53 15:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since when is making a factual, two-word inclusion twisting the facts? Remove the French from the list if you want to be a Deletionist. It's not a good idea to be a deletionist in Wikipedia, which is not a paper encyclopedia limited in size. The inclusion is factual and not a "twist". Wikipeida is open for anyone to edit. As the inclusion is fact, it should remain. Feel free to add to Wikipedia also, if your inclusion is correct, it's good. 69.222.253.40 17:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"What were the religions of the other settlers? -Willmcw 20:01, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)" You could find out and tell us......But the subject matter at hand (the list) is based on ethnic groups not religion. 69.222.253.40 17:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but then what should we do with the list: Dutch, Germans, French, English, other European Settlers, Diaspora Jews? How can any of these groups be listed and with others removed without claiming bias? They were all considered "White" and profitted under the apartheid system. That's being factual, unbiased, and inclusive, right? 69.221.60.181 21:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I dunno. The apartheid system classified the Jews as White. However, the powers that ran apartheid surely didn't view the Europeans and Jews as the same. Why should we rewrite history? 69.221.60.181 17:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Slimvirgin's decision to protect the article again would normally be good, I think, but I sense that the situation is now much calmer than it has been recently. I want to give you all a chance to work this out without edit warring, and that means trusting you all to make the right decisions without Big Brother looking over your shoulder. For that reason I took the unusual step of reversing Slimvirgin's protection of this article. I do not take Amyisrael's last revert as evidence of bad faith--his stated reason seems to suggest a willingness to discuss. However if the edit war resume to any great extent then protection would again be in order. I hope we don't have to do that because it makes dialog much more difficult. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well if he really is beyond hope the solution would not lie in stopping the eleven editors, and everybody else, from editing the article, along with the guy who disagrees with them. This is a Wiki, you have to be an insane optimist to even consider editing here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:22, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The original "Dutch" settlers of South Africa surely had an ethnic mixture similar to those that founded
New Netherland (later greater New York City and the Hudson Valley). There included the Dutch, but there were also many French and Walloon
Huguenots, refugees from anti-Protestant persecution, whose religious beliefs were nearly identical to those of the Dutch Reformed Church and were readily asimilated into Dutch culture and economic life. Many of the Germans were soldiers hired by the Dutch settlement organization, and as late as the 17th century the distinction between Dutch and north German was slight. There were English settlers in Holland escaping the religious persecutins between Protestant groups. With a smattering of other Europeans (Scandinavians and more Germans) they settled the Dutch colonies. They themselves all assimilated into the Dutch way of life.
To say that under Dutch rule that the "French did this, the Germans did this, the English did this" becomes absurd. The white settlers of South Africa became a melting pot in their own right, and one can't compartmentalize people by ethnicity after the melting pot starts assimilating people into one common culture. That culture was clearly Dutch even if genealogies indicate that some Afrikaner has little Dutch ancestry. -- 66.231.38.97 2 July 2005 05:47 (UTC)
That's great insight, thank you. Many editors involved in this discussion don't have a problem blaming "Germans" and "French" at all, that hypocrisy been pointed out before. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)
I am proposing chopping up these two articles and making three articles out of them: an article about history before apartheid, an article about apartheid and the history of South Africa during the apartheid era, and an article about the history of South Africa after the end of apartheid. This would entail merging the apartheid material from the two articles, so this article would be drastically transformed. Please discuss this on Talk:History of South Africa, not here, since we need to have a single place to discuss it, and this talk page currently appears to be dysfunctional due to the revert war.-- Bcrowell 21:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking back on the history, the following editors have opposed the unilateral attempts of our multiple IP/sockpuppet editor to include the POV-pushing trivia: User:Anilocra, User:Dewet, User:El C, User:Humus sapiens, User:Impi, User:Jayjg, User:Jpgordon, User:PrinceMarko, User:SlimVirgin, User:Tony Sidaway, User:Weyes That makes 11, if I have that correct, please let me know if I've added one incorrectly or missed one. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So jayjg thinks the Jews and the South African Jewish community are a "trivia dump". That's your opinion that Chaim Weizmann and Jan Smuts would have disagreed with. I see jayjg that you are still not claiming the Inclusion is false. What you may think is trivial, is not trivial to others. As the inclusion is accurate, it should remain. The Inlcusion is not a "trivial dump" and you know it. It's history. Sorry. 69.221.63.132 21:59, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've protected the page on the last version by Jayjg because of the reverts, and possibly a 3RR violation, by an anon IP and a new user account. When any of the regular editors wants to start editing again, let me know and I'll unlock it. If I'm not around, ask any other admin, or post a request to Wikipedia:Requests for protection. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:46, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we can see that Jayjg has violated the 3R Rule. Have a great day, 69.221.63.132 21:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you have reverted this article many times. You support deletions of fact. That about sums it up. Cheers! 69.221.63.132 22:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Everyone has indeed focussed on the inclusion, and pointed out to you again and again that it is trivia that is not-notable. However, you keep ignoring that, and instead use ad hominem illogic about revert teams, other editors POVs, "it's true therefore it must be in there" etc. Jayjg (talk) 15:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, it is not illogic to discuss your Revert Team violations to circumvent Wikipedia rules. The actions are clear for anyone to see. 69.209.230.73 16:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military, political, and economic control of the land and wealth." This statement is true, and it therefore should not be deleted.
HISTORY, not trivia:
19th Century
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
Apartheid Regime
"Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities."
Jews as part of White Ruling Class in South Africa
"According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority. Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30" 69.209.230.73 15:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Who'd have thought a factual 2-Word inclusion would cause so much trouble? The question to ask is why some editors want to delete, revise and deny simple facts?
Actually, the question is why one person would want to insert trivia in order to promote a POV they've been pushing for months, against the better judgement of 11 other editors? Your agenda in trying to promote this is clear, and has been from the start, but that still doesn't make it worth noting in this overview article. Jayjg (talk) 15:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I know it's trivial, and it has been called trivial, or non-noteworthy, since you started inserting it. Well, first you inserted false information, then when that was reverted you kept refining it until you finally had it down to something true, but still trivial. You keep pretending the issue is about whether or not it is "true", or claiming some non-existent policies such as "Wikipedia is Inclusionary, you should not be Deleting facts." Your agenda is to promote the POV that Jews are responsible for Apartheid, along with a little bit of David Irving defending/ADL bashing. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Cheers. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's not trivial and you know it. You have deleted factual information to suit your POV. And yes, Wikipedia is not your soapbox for volumes of Jewish propaganda, but you aren't fooling anyone, who are you kidding: User:Jayjg/Edits User_talk:Jayjg The inclusion is FACT. Really jayjg, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Cheers!! The Inclusion is fact.
HISTORY, not trivia:
19th Century
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
Apartheid Regime
"Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities."
Jews as part of White Ruling Class in South Africa
"According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority.
Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30" 69.209.230.73 15:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 69.217.207.73 21:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I haven't inserted any Jewish propaganda into this article, I (along with many other editors) have just rejected your many attempts to use trivia to push a POV. As for your other claims, you're just repeating yourself; you have yet to convince even one other editor that you are correct on this, and there are at least 11 who disagree with you. That should tell you something. Now why don't you go add Bill Clinton's shoe size to the article on him? Remember, it's size 13. That's HISTORY! Jayjg (talk) 01:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would first like to explain that the anonymous editor solicited my attention on my talk page, because I am listed at m:Association_of_Inclusionist_Wikipedians. Second, I would like to commend both Jayg and the anonymous editor for not descending into total absurdity as they debate their points, using references and making cogent arguments.
About the argument: I am not qualified to say whether the inclusion of references to Jewish settlers who did not oppose apartheid is strictly relevent; it certainly seems superfluous. It may be factually true, and is ostensibly providing more information, but this does not qualify it for inclusion into an article about apartheid. This does not explicitly exclude it from the article, but so often on wikipedia are there claims of pro-Jewish propaganda that I am inclined to think the anonymous editor is being disingenuous and, as Jayg said, "pushing a POV." However, a quick glance at Jayg's edit history and talk page reveals that he/she edits many a page related to Judaism, perhaps provoking the anonymous editor's suspicions.
The argument itself is not one of inclusionism versus deletionism, or trivia versus history, it is about maintaining both neutrality and usefulness. If we were to include every ethnicity and religion of settlers of South Africa, the article would be staggeringly overblown, and make retreiving useful information a nightmare. To say that South Africa was simply settled would again be useless. To include relevant information about the background of settlers is to acheive usefulness, but to include disingenuous information or exclude relevant information is to unbalance the neutrality of the article. Because this is such a fine line, no one editor should tread it alone. Hence we have talk pages and community consensus.
In this particular case, Jayg was appointed an administrator because he tends to make reasonable decisions, according to the WP community (or cabal, as some would have it). Also, other editors have supported him in this argument, and so do I. Therefore, the community decision is to exclude the information about Jewish settlers on this page. This edit war should never have gone on this long, and I hope that the anonymous editor will let the community decide and focus his/her efforts on other, more productive projects on WP.
So my recommendation to both Jayg and the anonymous editor is to take a break from this page and let those not so personally involved make educated decisions about neutrality. I once again commend both of you for your hard work and patience, and your dedication to your causes. But remind yourselves that editing should be fun, not pain. Wikipedia is outrageously fun, and edit wars are lame. If this continues, it may end up on WP:LAME, and nobody wants that. Two words, after all, should not be that important to either party. Sorry for the length. I hope this helps. - Matthew Cieplak (talk) (edits) 05:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, let's, as I said earlier. A note about the last sentence of [3]: even without the context, it is clear that the ZA Jewish community is significant in terms of world Jewish populations, not in terms of the ZA immigrant communities. Tomer TALK 23:23, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
As a late addition, I see that this war has now been taken to the South Africa article as well. Our anon editor is not displaying good intentions by clearly violating not only Wikipedia procedures, but trampling the community and its concensus. I suspect that for this reason alone, he will be opposed at every change he/she makes, simply because of this hard-headed attitude he/she is presenting. Dewet 06:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree WhatDoesKoshDoAllDay 06:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone is posting and making random edits in a negative fashion to try to sway the discussion away from the facts and matter at hand. Please do not fall for for edit/hate hoaxes. Can they be traced directly to any of the Deletionists from this discussion, that might have logged off and posted using an IP address? I'd like to know, if at all possible. What is the IP address associated with Jayjg? An Admninstrator might look. Thanks. 69.217.123.174 15:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The IP addresses are totally different. The vandalism has nothing to do with me or this particular discussion, unless it is being faked as an attempt to generate emotional responses. 69.217.123.174 16:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, there has been a bogus edit on the History of South Africa article, which may indicate that this is spilling over into that article as well.-- Bcrowell 16:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, you are being dishonest to this discussion. The only person who thinks this is "spilling over" is you. [ [5]] How can somebody's edit about Evolution have anything to do with discussing the fact that Diaspora Jews settled in S. Africa, right alonside the Dutch, the French, the Germans, the English, and other European Settlers? 69.217.123.174 16:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, let's overlook your hastily made accusations and personal attacks against User 69.217.123.174 that were incorrect. 69.217.123.174 17:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you cannot determine authorship of an edit, then don't make accusations. That's simple too. That vandalism doesn't reflect on me, it reflects poorly on the hoax editors or the vandals whoever they may be. 69.217.123.174 17:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, were you the vandal or not? 69.217.123.174 18:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Of course not. Are you all the various sockpuppets that have been reverting articles, including Azure1, FYI, SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon3Rrules, TeamRevertViolation, AmYisrael, EzraHabonim and Bethshalom? Also, I'm not sure why you continue to focus so strongly on me; many other editors here have both disgreed with you and reverted you as well. Jayjg, how many people have you censored or banned for your personal reasons? Let me make this clear, Jayjg: You will not censor anyone according to your own whims and bias. Never. Wikipedia is open to contributions from all people. 69.221.60.181 20:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regardless, didn't you say it would be a good idea to take a break from this article to "let those not so personally involved make educated decisions about neutrality"? I note that your verifiable contributions to Wikipedia so far include:
To many people that would suggest that you are not able to be neutral about the subject of Jews;
I suggest you start following your advice. Move on to Bill Clinton, for example; not only does he wear size 13 shoes, but he has the largest feet of any American president; Abraham Lincoln also wore size 13 shoes, but his feet weren't as wide. An "inclusionist" like yourself knows that these facts must be documented on Wikipedia; the project is suffering deeply for every second the information is not prominently displayed in the article. Jayjg (talk) 19:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Regarding edits on Wikipedia, Bcrowell, paraphrasing your words, you are implying that one must have 1) a user account, 2) a reputation, 3) be a part of the Wikipedia community (however defined), and 4) have established a realistic picture of oneself to others, and 5) be easily identifiable as to "where one is coming from". I am sorry but that is pure BS. An editor does not need the 5 items listed above. The focus is the edit itself, not ad hominem nonsense. It's a shame that my two-word edit, factually correct and true, for some has been perceived unworthy not based on its own merits, but based on self-righteous ad hominem bias such as requiring an editor have a made-up user account name, etc.
As you may have forgotten: Wikipedia is open for anyone to edit, you don't need a user account, etc. etc. Kindly reread what I had to post for Jpgordon a couple of times already. [ [7]]
Censorship based on ad hominem illogic, and based against perceived bias against an editor (and not focused on the edit itself) is wrong and you know it. Jpgordon: Reread for the 4th time:
A small group consensus as of 6-22-2005 does not mean the article is set in stone forever or that the 2-Word Inclusion you personally dislike is wrong. Wikipedia is open for editing. It's not about censorship. If an edit is factual and made in good faith, you ought not censor it. What really disappointing about your activity is the collusion and communication you employ with a small group to circumvent the open input process and basically censor that which your bias dislikes. 69.221.60.181 19:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 19:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the list is: Dutch, Germans, French, English, Diaspora Jews, and other European Settlers? How can any of these groups be listed with others removed without claiming bias? They were all considered "White" and profited under the apartheid system. That's being factual, unbiased, and inclusive, right? 69.221.60.181 21:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Include them if you like, but I believe they are covered by "other European Settlers". The inclusion is not "blame Jews for Apartheid". Nice try, but the Inclusion states Diaspora Jews settled in S. Africa in the 19th Century. That's it. Your paranoia POV is astounding. Read the words and please comprehend what they actually state, not what you "think" they might mean if you don't read them correctly. Are we blaming the French for apartheid by saying they were settlers? Also, the Jewish community in S. Africa was significant, there are plenty of references that have been provided substantiating it. Kindly read the Inclusion, do rely on ad hominem attacks accusing me of POV. The words are what they are, the facts are what they are also. 69.221.60.181 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking back on the history, the following editors have opposed the unilateral attempts of our multiple IP/sockpuppet editor to include the POV-pushing trivia: User:Anilocra, User:Dewet, User:Dystopos, User:El C, User:Humus sapiens, User:Impi, User:Jayjg, User:Jpgordon, User:Matthewcieplak, User:PrinceMarko, User:SlimVirgin, User:Tony Sidaway, Tuf-Kat, User:Weyes, User:WhatDoesKoshDoAllDay, That makes 15, if I have that correct, please let me know if I've added one incorrectly or missed one. Jayjg (talk) 21:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and you obviously never answered the question: Are you all the various sockpuppets that have been reverting articles, including Azure1, FYI, SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon3Rrules, TeamRevertViolation, AmYisrael, EzraHabonim and Bethshalom? Jayjg (talk) 22:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Spamming talk pages will not convince anyone you are right. Tuf-Kat 22:30, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you will not censor anyone based on your personal whims and bias. Are you going to "ban" again and again and again? 69.221.60.181 22:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you going to continue to censor others on Wikipedia? I'd like to see a list of which Wikipedia admns. has banned the most editors. Can anyone produce such an analysis? I wonder where Jayjg would rank? 69.221.60.181 23:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No thanks, you go ahead and ban it. 69.221.60.181 21:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BACK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND
Are the French and Germans trivial? Should they be deleted? I do not think deletions ought to be the prevailing policy. What is the point of Wikipedia if it sticks to traditional orthodoxy and does not progress? Wikipedia has room to include: "French, Germans, European Settlers, and diaspora Jews" as notable groups that settled in S. Africa. The inclusion does not blame the French or the Germans or the Jews for Apartheid, so let's not see spam with that one again. 69.221.60.181 16:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On May 2, 2005 there are posts by the Jpgordon/Jayjg POV team [ [12]]. That is not a consensus. Dutch, English, Germans, French and diapora Jews are separate and distinct groups. In S. Africa during the apartheid era, Jews were classifed as White alongside the Europeans, however the apartheid rulers did not view them as the same group, you have zero evidence to back that up. Why are you trying to rewrite history? That's the way it was then. You have not proved a case for the Deletion. 69.221.60.181 17:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No response Tomer, since you avoid the topic at hand and resort to ad hominem attacks. It's getting old. Deal with the subject of this section. 69.221.60.181 19:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, its been thoroughly amusing, and I'd like to summarise everything happening up to thus far in closing:
This is absolutely the last time I have chimed in on this increasingly silly matter. Dewet 19:07, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Explain just how many sources you need to justify that "diaspora Jews settled in South Africa in the 19th Century". I mean how can you possibly justify that statement as false to be deleted? It's just ridiculous. The 2-word inclusion does not blame the Germans or the French or the Jews for Apartheid. It discusses the fact that a distinct Jewish community (that is not, never was trivial) existed alongside the rest of the list. The debate is just gotten so twisted it need to refocus on the inclusion at hand. Geez. 69.221.60.181 20:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Throttle back a little on the censorship! :-) [ [13]] Jpgordon and Jayjg have not debated the subject valiantly, moreso from an intellectually dishonest position, twisting the meaning of the inclusion from what it actually states. 69.221.60.181 20:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Again: Yes I know what ad hominem illogic is:
Regular Ad Hominem
1. 69.221.60.181 makes claim B; 2. there is something objectionable about 69.221.60.181 3. therefore claim B is false.
That about sums up the fallacy of this debate.
This section is about Google hits, so please no ad hominem attacks ( Wikipedia:No personal attacks), they will not be responded to. 69.221.60.181 19:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but when I search Google I get
South African German -- 6,860,000 hits
South African French -- 22,600,000 hits
South African Huguenot -- 35,200 hits
South African Jewish -- 2,820,000 hits
To me living in South Africa there are far more Muslims than Jews. And being a english speaking white South African, I was not directly responsable for aparthied BUT I benefited from it by getting a good education while the majority of the people didn't. I know quite a few Jews who fought against aparthied but most of the Jews being white like me also benefited by the system. So you can't lay the blame of Aparthied at the feet of Jews, but at the feet of the whites, even me who got something out. I was so protected growing up that I didn't even know what was going on. During my forced 2 years in the army in the 80s threw me into the thick of things. I am thankful that South Africa has become the "Rainbow Nation". This nation of ours is a miricle. Now stop this mud slinging about who is to blame and get on with making this article a good and informative --
Jcw69 12:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank You
Jcw69 for contributing to the discussion. In any case, it appears that the relative and actual amounts of Google Hits shows that the South African Jewish community is indeed a meaningful one.
Humus sapiens Using that same logic: The article as it stands says "blame the Germans and French". Do you have a problem with that? I haven't heard you say such a thing so far, why bring it up now? However, the inculsion does not blame anyone and it doesn't contain the word blame. You, Jpgordon, Jayjg and maybe a few others with a "POV" are the ones that introduced the word "blame" into this discussion and nobody else has. Sorry. The article, sentence, and inclusion at hand do not blame the Germans or the French or anyone else. 69.221.60.181 15:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On your Talk page: [ [14]] 69.221.60.181 15:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
First, the rebuttal used was that the Jewish community was/is trivial, that has been proven false. There are 13 times more hits than for the French or German. Other POV rebuttals dishonestly claimed the edit placed "blame", when it clearly does not. Then we have historical accuracy. The subject edit is historically accurate. Read the text. That argument is proven false as well.
So the only reason you can come up with now is: "when first written, it was decided to include the four major groups". Oh, 4 only. says whom? as determined by? that's set in stone forever on a Wiki project? [Impi], seriously, why do you think Wikipedia should simply copy and duplicate orthodoxy, and not progress? Wikpedia is not limited in size. Maybe you should be selling paper encyclopedias. ;-)
Every single piece of literature you read on South Africa's White population is unanimous that diaspora Jews settled in South Africa in the 19th Century, and that the Jews were classified as White during the apartheid era.
The subject edit is true and non-trivial and in no way places blame on any group. Please stop deleting the contribution to the article. The rebuttals have not withstood scrutiny. 69.221.60.181 16:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For anyone crazy enough to read this ridiculously long discussion and try to evaluate all the points logically, it may be relevant to look at Talk:Carlo Levi, where jayjg used Google to show that "Italian-Jewish" was more common than "Jewish-Italian." In my opinion, that use of Google makes sense, whereas the one the anon is proposing here does not.-- Bcrowell 2 July 2005 01:17 (UTC)
That's subjective and inconsistent. Kindly explain when, in your opinion, a Googletest is applicable and when it is not. It cannot be based on whether the results are "to your liking". Consistency should be applied, which Jayjg does not. Thanks. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 10:55 (UTC)
Also, you might want to have Jayjg get right on his mission and go correct the Sol Kerzner page where Jewish is listed before Russian. We can't have that kind of radical POV going on! Oh my! Call in the reinforcements!! 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)
Google Hits (6-25-2005) for settler communities:
*"south african jewish" 9,130
*"south african english" 15,500 *"south african french" 720 *"south african huguenot" 17 *"south african german" 691 *"south african dutch" 656 *"south african irish" 864 *"south african portuguese" 201
Clearly, the South African Jewish settler community is not trivial. Therefore that argument is POV.
Matthew Cieplak Oh, I see. A Googletest is only applicable when it supports your position, when it does not, then let's toss it out? The numbers do not lie. Matthew, have you read any of the 9,000 google hits? They do not appear anti-semitic in any way. Calling them "brazen" is yet another example of the fact that most people haven't reviewed this discussion in detail, and are simply editing in a reactionary way. Review the 9,000 google hits, and tell us what you conclude. The rebuttal was that the contribution was "Trivial". That has been proven false, so why delete it? Those who would delete have provided no justification for their position. If we are going to have to talk about the so-called "blame" once again, (which the text does not), where is the outrage over including the French or the Germans? There is no blame being placed in that text, that issue is dead and a red herring anyway. The Google test is a great indicator that the Jewish community is noteworthy (relative or otherwise) in the history of White S. Africa during the 20th Century, and the results are off the charts supporting my position. What do you have to suggest otherwise?
69.221.62.82 18:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) Can I get a barnstar now?!
Matthew Cieplak: I have responded to your comments. Please do not say that I haven't. You had concerns about:
You should not drag it on then. The facts are clearly laid out. 69.209.222.92 29 June 2005 05:19 (UTC)
How can you say your concerns were not addressed? Thank You.
Also, refutations have been provided against:
I'd like to stress again that the anon has failed to bring any reputable impartial source. The quantity does not substitute for quality, and circular arguments or blaming the Cabal does not add anyone credibility. Speaking of which, the range of anon's contibs speaks for itself. ← Humus sapiens← Talk 28 June 2005 22:32 (UTC)
Dear Humus, Cabal? The text blames nobody. are you trying to use that tired and oft-used Canard and Slur again? You can throw it, but it won't stick. Now then:
12) So, we have a response that has nothing to do with this discussion. Again. 9,000 hits provide plenty of quality sources. Regarding my posts, what about them? What is your point? I encourage everyone to review them, and you'll understand the censorship that goes on. Somehow Humus Sapiens I get the feeling if you had the power to ban and censor, you would, like some others. Look at what impressive amounts of propaganda we are dealing with: [ [15]],[ [16]],[ [17]],[ [18]],[ [19]] Gee, do you have anything else to do? No wonder you're all here arguing about 2 words and put the page on lock-down. The Jews settled in S. Africa, that is irrefutable and there is tons of reputable proof. Here's yet another: [ [20]] and another [ [21]], and another: [ [22]] "the community has contributed much to the development of South Africa, making its mark on every facet of public life, commerce, industry, science, medicine, art, music, philanthropy, sport and academia." How is Sol Kerzner's Sun City resort doing these days? I remember the 1985 song by 45 " Artists against Apartheid" and U2. Please don't make me document the history of Jan Smuts and Chaim Weizmann to futher prove there was a South African Jewish community. By the way, how come you've not once whined about the French and German communities being on the list too? We all know why you have not. Cheers! [User:69.209.222.92|69.209.222.92]] 28 June 2005 22:46 (UTC)
Question: In 50 words, more or less, what do you object to, in the article in its present protected state?
Answers:
I'm going to unprotect this page; it's been too long. If another revert war starts, I will point out 3RR violations at WP:AN/3RR, but I will not enforce, as I am too involved. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 29 June 2005 00:23 (UTC)
The conclusion suggests that there will be no more reverts or deletion based on POV bias unless justified. The facts have been laid out clearly, and more reverts and censorship are not acceptable. If you continue to revert, the revert violations will be noted. Please do not revert and start the same problem. Do not revert, move on. 69.209.222.92 29 June 2005 05:12 (UTC)
I would like to stress that strong-worded and radical declarations from an anonymous IP do not speak much in its favour. I suggest that the tone would be put down a little bit, and that the suggested modifications be discussed on the talk page, along with good references.
The argument "Do not delete the modifications without discussion" can also read "do not apply the modifications without discussion", and given the balance here, it might be a good solution if our anonymous contributor could take the on himself to make the step. Rama 29 June 2005 06:47 (UTC)
The modifications have been than justified, footnoted, tested, referenced, googletested, explained, articulated and defended. The text is accurate.
It makes sense then, that a random revert, without providing any new information or a comment in Discussion is not justified. Wikipedia's dispute resolution provides a guide:
Unless someone has an improvement, or a Discussion summary associated with it, the reverts should not stand. Thanks.
69.209.199.237 29 June 2005 07:53 (UTC)
You are not following the discussion. 69.217.193.91 29 June 2005 17:01 (UTC)
Get it anon? Consensus here first. It's policy. Jayjg (talk) 29 June 2005 16:18 (UTC)
Oh, and while you're doing that, please explain why the religion of the various groups that settled in South Africa is both relevant and notable in the Apartheid article. Jayjg (talk) 29 June 2005 16:23 (UTC)
Nice tone there, Jayjg. Having problems with other editors too? [ [23]]
Perhaps you're not following the discussion before the multiple reverts. Jayjg, I trust that you are not an expert on South Africa, are you? Impi provided us the following information: "the vast majority of South Africa's white population descends from British, Dutch, French and German (mostly Protestant) immigrants. For example, the official South African government information site says: "The white population descends largely from the colonial immigrants of the late 17th, 18th and 19th centuries - Dutch, German, French Huguenot and British.", and the demographics statistics from the Demographics of South Africa article has the following: "86.8% of White residents are Christian, 8.8% have no religion, 0.2% are Muslim, 1.4% are Jewish." We are discussing demographics in 2 sentences in the article. The official South African government information site and Demographics of South Africa article contain simple religion and ethnicity data when discussing settlement demographics. It is done concisely and accurately. The improvement does the same thing, and I think it covers all the bases nicely:
2 sentences: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. The English followed in the 19th Century and these groups formed the main white Protestant population. Other smaller groups of Catholic European settlers and diaspora Jews followed in the 19th and 20th centuries."
The Demographics of South Africa article lists a Portuguese minority, maybe that list of notable minority communities needs to be briefly expanded on that page. 69.217.193.91 29 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Impi do you want to answer this? Jayjg, please stop censoring my IP addresses with insufficent or contrived reasons. 69.216.247.228 29 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that we are discussing notable communities in the apartheid era, the latter-half of the 20th Century, not the 17th Century--I refer you once again to the googletest results. It is relevant and notable to reference statistics from authoritative sources in concise form as the authoritative sources present them.
Kindly show us the burden of proof rules for Wikipedia. 69.209.227.142 29 June 2005 21:27 (UTC)
The relevance has already been established ad nauseum. 9,000--39,000,000 Google links (depending on how you search), official Demographic sources, other Wikipedia links, non-Anti-semitic sources, popular history ( Sol Kerzner and Sun City), and thousands of history books, should a bibliography be required I can provide it. Jayjg, you have proved nothing other than your efforts to censor and revise history. Please do not keep censoring my IP addresses for insufficient reasons. 69.209.227.142 29 June 2005 21:27 (UTC)
Tomer, you are incorrect. The googletest was performed within quotes and without quotes. And the results are spectacularly off-the-charts supporting the Inclusion and improved text. One cannot toss one set of numbers and rely on another, that's POV. I am suggesting we do neither and remain inclusive and accurate, which the text does. Sorry, but you haven't been persuasive. The relevance has already been established ad nauseum: 9,000--39,000,000 Google links (depending on how you search), official Demographic sources, other Wikipedia links, non-Anti-semitic sources, popular history ( Sol Kerzner and Sun City), and thousands of history books, should a bibliography be required I can provide it.
jayjg, Where are the burdern of proof rules for Wikpedia? Until you come up with something new, I, like many others, will not bother to respond. The improved text is the most accurate, inclusive and appropriate. Your argument about triviality has long, long, long ago been debunked and proven false. Come up with something better, or you're just being trivial.
Do not block this user IP unless you have a reason. I will be watching, and if you ban this IP for no reason, you will be in violation of Wikipedia policy. Give up the censorship attempts already. 69.222.252.120 29 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
jayjg, why did you block/censor 69.222.252.120 moments after you were asked not to? Are you going to block this IP also? Then only you would be able to post to the discussion. 69.217.201.176 29 June 2005 22:22 (UTC)
Got it. I see that forming a "Revert Team" is a good way to circumvent and abuse the rule. The same reverts are made by a small group, to abuse the spirit and avoid the rule. The concept is sleazy, but Jayjg , your execution is excellent. [ [24]] [25] 69.209.225.226 29 June 2005 22:54 (UTC)
Jayjg, you have a track record of Censorship, and you are part of a Revert Team that pushes and jealously guards POV in many articles. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 20:13 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. The English followed in the 19th Century and these groups formed the main white Protestant population. Other smaller groups of Catholic European settlers and diaspora Jews followed in the 19th and 20th centuries."
This should be uniform across all S. Africa articles. 69.217.201.176 29 June 2005 22:33 (UTC)
-- Impi "Pollute" is an interesting choice of word, and what's with that nosehair analogy? But what's the alternative text that works? The text should provide more, not less, information to the reader (that's the whole point), and it should be accurate and brief. It should recognize the settlement groups and be inclusive of the Protestant Europeans -- (Dutch, French, Germans, English), the Catholic Europeans -- Portuguese, Irish, Italians), and the Jews. The following text adds information to the article, remains brief and accurate, and it recognizes the relativity of populations, does it not?:
It's a simple sentence that provides improvement and clarity to who comprised the Whites in the 20th Century. It recognizes the relative numbers but doesn't completely omit information to the reader that the Googletest proves is not trivia. It's an improvement to the article. The religious info would provide more information, and I don't think it "pollutes" to have it in there, but Impi what do you think of the text now (with religion removed)? The new text doesn't blame or highlight, it takes into account the concerns of all editors, it doesn't change the content of the article, but most importantly, it accurately informs the reader. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
I'm not Jewish, but have great respect for the broad river of humanitarianism, respect for learning, and socialism that began with the 'one-foot Torah lesson' of Rav Hillel (alav hashalom) and came out of the shtetls in a tidal wave during the late 1800s/early 1900s.
Apart perhaps from very secular Jews--and I mean very secular--Jews see themselves as a people apart, much as the Amish do. So I don't see a problem in calling out their immigration in the same way other distinct groups are called out. It would be the same if a group of Amish or Japanese or Jivaro had immigrated to SA--the number is less important than the fact that this is a group that chooses to set itself apart.
That's my take, anyway. Katzenjammer 29 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
May I offer another take on it, which clarify matters a little?
I hope that moves the discussion forward. -- Red King 30 June 2005 20:01 (UTC)
Are you saying the Jewish communities all over the world, and throughout history, are "miniscule" in relevance just because of mere population percentages? I think Wikipedia itself debunks that argument. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:15 (UTC)
On the contrary, the only person using Slurs, tired old Canards, and the word Cabal is you Tomer. Go figure. Cheers. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 21:52 (UTC)
OK, so I may be feeding the trolls of this argument with this, but according to the 2001 Census, the current Jewish population of South Africa stands at 0,2%. Compare this to 1,2% Hinduism, 1,5% Islam, and 0,9% Eastern Orthodox, there is a stronger case to be said that Russian immigrants were a more important factor in South Africa's history than the Jews.
Also, Anonymous editor, please get a user ID. They are easy to get, and your argument is not helped by not having a permanent user name. Páll 29 June 2005 23:13 (UTC)
I've had ID's, but User:Jayjg tracks the user name and then reverts edits all across Wikpedia. If one becomes a "target" so to speak, look out, all subsequent posts will be tracked and then almost immediately reverted without discussion. That's been my experience. Even with IP addresses, he still manages to follow and revert. It's abusive.
You don't know the facts about the abuse, so please stop speculating, and kindly stop personal attacks, they are against WP policy ( Wikipedia:No personal attacks). My experience is as I stated. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:02 (UTC)
Regarding population, you have to look at the percentage of the White population. Plus the Googletest results are highly significant. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 16:03 (UTC)
That's your opinion. The are 13 times more Google hits than for the French or Germans. We are talking about the 20th Century in SA, not the 17th Century. The Jewish community was and is noteworthy in SA. The text does not place blame, so why are you so concerned? The fact that Jewish communities were minorities in many countries doesn't mean they weren't notable and worthy of interest and discussion. Wikipedia is proof positive of that. South Africa is no different. The text is straightforward, accurate, and it doesn't place any blame. So, get over it already and stop pushing revisionist POV and denial. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 18:50 (UTC)
I revert vandalism, as you should do also. Please do stop repeating yourself, if you are simply going to neglect the discussion at hand. Kindly review the new proposed text. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
please update the interwiki link for zh from [[zh:种族隔离]] to [[zh:南非的種族隔離]], thank you. -- R.O.C 30 June 2005 02:02 (UTC)
-- 168.209.98.35 1 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
The article gives the English pronunciation of "Apartheid" as [əˈpɑː(r)teɪt] or [-taɪt]. The first of those I have no doubt whatsoever is as a result of politicking by Anglophone schoolmarms teaching their impressionable pupils that the word means "a part hate", and that that is how it should be pronounced. That said, the article should at least include /ʌ 'pʼʌɺtʼ ha:ʲd/, which is the only pronunciation I've ever heard from English speakers who weren't specifically calling it "a part hate", with the exception of a few who hypercorrect it as /ʌ 'pʼʌɺ θa:ʲd/ or even /ʌ 'pʼa:ɺ θa:ʲd/ (which are even more ridiculous sounding). Tomer TALK July 1, 2005 22:02 (UTC)
This provides improvement and clarity as to who comprised the whites in the 20th Century. It recognizes the relative numbers among the whites and it does not completely omit information that the Googletest proves is not trivial. The new text doesn't blame or highlight, it doesn't change the content of the article, it informs the reader, improves the article, and most importantly, it takes into account the concerns of all editors. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
This is just the right level of detail to provide information and clarity, but excludes all information which has been proven to be misleading trivia, and, most importantly, takes into account the overwhelming consensus of editors on this page. Jayjg (talk) 1 July 2005 22:16 (UTC)
Dream On. Artists United Against Apartheid boycotted Sol Kerzner's Sun City, South Africa resort due to its adherence and promotion of apartheid policies. Just who worked at the mining companies? To say the Jewish community was never integrated into White ZA society is pure revision. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:27 (UTC)
Are you a Jayjg sockpuppet? Jayjg references Googletests if they support his arguments, but interestingly he doesn't want to apply it consistently here, solely because it doesn't support his POV. Sad. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:22 (UTC)
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
No, that's not accurate at all.
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
It is clear that a few biased editors have no problem including "other European Settlers" on the list, but want to skip over the fact that the Jews were considered white in 20th Century South Africa also. Kindly explain why you don't object to the inclusion of other "European Settlers"? There hasn't been one peep of an objection. What were the relative numbers of "European settlers" that are acceptable for the list? How do they compare?
Jpgordon, is right, and his opinion reflects historical accuracy to say that the "other European settlers" and "diapora Jews" considered each other separate in ethnicity. That is manifested today in the fact that a European-descended South African wouldn't be given citizenship in Israel. The Jewish community sees a distinct difference, and it's backed up in historical fact going both ways.
It is not proper to combine them. It is intellectually dishonest to list one and not the other, that's POV. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:08 (UTC)
. . .for all those who are wrangling over the subject that fills most of this talk page and several of its archives: work on writing History of the Jews in South Africa (currently a redlink) and work on turning Jews in South Africa into something more than a redirect to African Jew. Then you can go into detail about South African Jews and apartheid (whether as tacit collaborators or outspoken opponents) and link to that information from here. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. But that still doesn't address the inequities of listing the 17th Century "Germans" and "French", and other "European" settlers, while some editors like Josh want to conspicuously omit the ZA Jewish community of the 20th Century. It's totally POV, and the googletest is off-the-charts supporting the inclusion in the text, which once again, is accurate and truthful. Unles someone can improve the text, we have no consensus as to what the text should state. It cannot be discriminatory. Right? 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 19:06 (UTC)
Charles P.'s suggestion is excellent. There is a clear consensus that the current text does not need to be "improved" by adding a reference to Jews. The current text does need to be improved in many other ways, and that can't be done if it's only unprotected for a few hours every month. The problem is that regardless of how many good suggestions like Charles P.'s we get, all it amounts to is feeding an anonymous troll who has shown no intention of making any constructive contributions to wikipedia or of doing any real research. What we seem to have learned here is that the structure of wikipedia allows an intentionally disruptive anon to paralyze an article indefinitely.-- Bcrowell 2 July 2005 19:45 (UTC)
Bcrowell, there has been plenty of research done, please review the rebuttal summary. Please respond to the intellectual dishonesty going on, regarding the 17th Century "French" and "Germans" being placed on the list. Only a few editors, those that know S. Africa history, have addressed it. The obvious editors have no problem with "Germans", "French" and "Europeans", but are revising the fact that diaspora Jews likewise were considered white. It's dishonest pure and simple, please address this issue, and refrain from personal attacks. 69.219.53.138 4 July 2005 17:41 (UTC)
When I clicked on the link to edit this talk page, I got this message: "This page is 186 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable." A little silly, huh? Think of the amount of productive effort by intelligent people that's been wasted here. On consideration, I'm not so sure that, as I suggested above, this silliness shows that "the structure of wikipedia allows an intentionally disruptive anon to paralyze an article indefinitely." If we step back for a minute and think about what wikipedia is really about, what really defines it, in contrast to its failed predecessor Nupedia, is its attitude of "yeah baby, bring it on!" No holds barred. Just do it. Steal This Book. The fundamental assumption is that if something is broken, people who care will come along and fix it. Protecting the page continuously for months at a time betrays a fundamental lack of faith in what wikipedia is all about. Jayjg, let's unprotect the page, and leave it unprotected, and see what happens. Protecting it just feeds into the anon's cult of victimhood. I have my three reverts locked and loaded.-- Bcrowell 3 July 2005 05:26 (UTC)
I propose that we conduct a vote which shall last 5 days (beginning at 08:00:00 UTC, Sunday July 3, 2005. Votes closing 08:00:00 UTC, Friday, July 8, 2005):
The purpose of which is to determine the inclusion or exclusion of specific "significant groups" in the makeup of ZA's White population as outlined in the article:
This vote shall not consider anonymous IP addresses, nor registered wikipedians with fewer than 500 edits not directly related to this issue prior to June 30, 2005:
Please reread:
The subject of this vote is the wording proposed by Jayjg as opposed to that by the vandalistic and increasingly verbally abusive anon:
The subject of this vote is the wording proposed by Jayjg as opposed to that by the anonymous editor most recently editing as User:69.209.210.198, as 69.*.*.* generally, and also as User:Novato and User:AmYisrael.
This vote shall authoritatively determine the wording of the "white origins" sections of the Apartheid article for a period to last NOT LESS THAN TWO MONTHS:
The two forwarded proposals are as follows:
Comments in favor of neither:
Comments in favor of either:
Miscellaneous commentary:
YES, THIS VOTE IS DESIGNED TO SQUELCH, and censor the facts of the settlement of South Africa, especially in the 19th and 20th centuries. Wikipedia is not limited in size. The improved text (two words) improves the accuracy of the article, and takes into account the concerns of all editors, except those that want to totally delete/withhold accurate information "just because they don't like it". It's not about being on a losing side. It's about honesty, accuracy, and historical fact.
The two should be consistent, not inconsistent, that's POV. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 14:04 (UTC)
Oh, what happened to the "French"? The diaspora Jews settled in South Africa. Reread the text. It does not say blame the Jews, which is the ONLY issue you care about, not facts, not truth, not historical accuracy, nothing else but your biased POV.
Thank you. Jayjg is still here pushing his POV, that has already been disproven. The Jewish community was considered white, and it was a relevant and notable community in the 20th Century. The 17th Century Germans and French, that Jayjg dishonestly demands be on the list, were much less significant as political or economic entities during the 20th Century in South Africa. This the Googletest proves with flying colors. After all this time, nobody has addressed the inequities of the text as it relates to "the list" until now, even after many requests. So thank you for contributing and not joining a kangaroo court. Not one person has addressed the history of Jan Smuts and Chaim Weizmann and the political implications and issues that resulted during the apartheid era. Irrelevant? Maybe to some with a history of POV. The improved text is accurate, fair and inclusive. The amount of denial and POV by a few problematic editors, lasting over 2 months, in the face of mountains of information and thoroughly researched and footnoted data, is staggering. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)
This is not a new proposal, it's a reiteration of the same intellectually vacuous arguments that the anon has been repeating for months, and that have already been rejected by a clear consensus of the editors who are interested in this article.-- Bcrowell 5 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)
That's the same empty rhetoric you've been using for months. Empty. It adds nothing, it contributes nothing. Address the issues raised, just one time. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:19 (UTC)
--Why don't you try taking a stab at some text that all editors can agree with? that is fair and accurate and doesn't omit information to a reader? 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:28 (UTC)
Thus far, only editor Impi has attempted to improve the text. Many other editors have popped into the discussion offering suggestions also. However, certain Jewish POV editors Tomer, Jayjg , jpgordon have abused the open collaboration effort have used censorship and supressed the facts, and have not offered a text that avoids dishonesty. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 14:15 (UTC)
Please work to provide an improved text below in lieu of censorship and POV:
"This page is 211 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size." It seems obvious to me that the anon is trying to distract attention from the vote, by cutting and pasting the same arguments over and over again, in an attempt to crapflood this talk page. Maybe if he can get the vote to scroll way off the top of the screen, he can keep people from noticing that the consensus is overwhelmingly against him, and that all his arguments have already been debated extensively, and haven't convinced anybody. To feed this troll right now just encourages him. -- Bcrowell 5 July 2005 17:31 (UTC)
You are the troll. Personal attacks are against Wikipedia policy. Please try contributing (one time) some text that all can agree with. Please make an attempt. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:53 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Older discussions about apartheid has been moved to:
Talk:Apartheid/Israel
Talk:Apartheid/Archive1
Talk:Apartheid/Archive2
Talk:Apartheid/Archive3
I've removed "European Jews" as 18th century settlers of South Africa. No reason to give them special mention, any more than we distinguish between Protestant Germans and Catholic Germans when we mention the German settlement. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 05:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
--The Jews themselves view their settlement in S. Africa as distinct from the Dutch, English, etc. See Jewish Virtual Library
Located on the tip of the African continent, South Africa is famous for its diamond and gold mines. Cape Town, South Africa’s first city, was founded in 1652 by the Dutch to provide fresh produce and meats to the members of the Dutch East India Company, who were traveling between Europe and the Orient. In 1806, the colony switched hands and became part of the British Empire. Discoveries of gold and diamonds changed South Africa from an agricultural society to modern metropolis.
Jews have been a part of South Africa’s development from the very beginning. Portuguese Jewish cartographers and scientists contributed to Vasco Da Gama’s discovery of the Cape of Good Hope in 1497. A number of non-professing Jews were among the first settlers of Cape Town in 1652, despite restrictions against the immigration of non-Christians.
Religious freedom was granted by the Dutch colony in 1803 and guaranteed by the British in 1806. Among the first British settlers to come to Cape Town were 20 Jews. The first South African Jewish congregation was founded in 1841 in one of the homes of the new British settlers. Eight years later, the first synagogue, Tikvat Israel ("Hope of Israel" - referring to the Cape of Good Hope) was established in Cape Town and is still standing today.
Jews prospered during the apartheid era and were more educated than their white counterparts. More than 50 percent of the Jews were matriculated, compared to the average 23% in the total white population. Ten percent of the Jewish community had university degrees, compared to only 4% of the total white population. Jews were disproportionately represented in the commercial and financial sectors of society. The Jewish population peaked in the early 1970's reaching nearly 119,000 people. [1]
Nobody is singling out anybody. It's being more accurate and inclusive. It is the Jews themselves that saw themselves as distinct from the English, Dutch, Germans, etc. Would it be more accurate to say Lithuanian Jews? like the South African Jews do amongst themselves? In being inclusive and factual, it does not overemphasize anything, that is only your interpretation. 119,000 people is not "miniscule". It sounds like you are being anti-semitic in diminishing the accomplishments and contributions of Jewish people to South African history. S. Africa's Jewish community has always been one that Jewish people have taken pride in. There were many White people involved in anti-apartheid activities on a worldwide basis. The emigration of Jews out of South Africa is directly and statistically correlated to the decline of the apartheid regime of which many were a part of. Let's not make a special exception here. History is history and "Jews" were involved in apartheid right alongside the "Dutch", "English", and "Germans". 69.216.245.115
I might also point out the large number of Whites worldwide that contributed to the "anti-apartheid" movement. Remember Bono? And what about the Blacks themselves? Gee. Jayjg: To me you sound rather biased, almost as if your intention is to overemphasize the role of Jews in ending apartheid, but of having no part in it. We all know that is not. 69.216.245.115
What bias are you trying to hide? South Africa had and contiues to have a "Jewish" community just like the "English", "Dutch", French" and "Germans". Why is this fact of history objectionable to you? There are thousands of sources that prove this true. Why do you object to this inclusion as outlined in the one sentence above?
It is not inaccurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. 69.216.246.88 21:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Anon editor, you are being overbearing now. Trying to highlight Jews, a relative minority compared to the major settlers (highlighted by Impi and the other editors here), is simply presenting a skewed image. THAT is the reason why your edits are being reverted, not some evil deletionist strategy. Dewet 22:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Gentlemen: Overbearing is better applied to those who would delete and deny the existence and reference of the Jewish community in South African history. It is not anywhere near "unworkable" to include the European Jews, along with the Italian, Irish, Polish, and Portuguese, if you like, in the one sentence in the article. Please.
It is absolutely accurate to say: "South Africa was settled by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. European Jews and the English followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth." That is NPOV, and historical fact. Simple as that. If you want to read something more into these words and simple facts, then that is your POV. 69.216.246.88
19th Century
The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields.
First Half of the 20th Century
During the Boer War, Jews served on both sides, although the arrival of English Jews helped out the British side. Some Boers harbored prejudices against the Jews, while others felt a kinship toward them. In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens, giving British authority legitimacy among Jews.
Following the mining boom, Jews became part of the rapid industrialization of South Africa. They became involved in food processing; clothing, textile and furniture manufacturing; insurance; hotel management; advertising and entertainment. Jews also established supermarkets, department stores and discount store chains.
Protected due to the revert war. If this can be resolved, or the problematic parties removed from the situation, feel free to unprotect, but if I understand correctly blocking might not be adequate to deal with this one? -- Michael Snow 20:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, enough already. You don't "see the point", because you have a POV or a blind spot or something. The contributions of Jews to South Africa are numerous. Jews make up a minority/small percentage of every single country in which they dwell but Israel, but should we not acknowledge their contributions and presence in the histories of the USA? Britain? Canada?, Germany? etc? Jayjg, you are so POV it is laughable. On Wikipedia you want to push a POV that is Jewish-centric when you think it helps your bias, and you want to deny and revise on other occasions like this one.
The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. The Jews themselves saw their community as strong and distinct from the Europeans. Fact and History. That's the way it was. Reread history and I have provided you a Jewish source! So please stop the denial and revisionist history. See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/South_Africa.html Jewish Virtual Library] again:
Apartheid Regime
With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities. 69.218.25.182 21:58, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Humus sapiens: You do not have a crystal ball into the minds of others. Do you want me to give you my opinion of you? You have revealed yourself in the denier and revisionist camp. Your Talk page proves your huge preoccupation with the Jews, and it tells more about yourself than about your knowledge of S. African history. Your opinion is thus discredited for bias. Let's stick to the facts and history of S. Africa's economic and political history, which involves Jews every bit as much as the current list of: "Dutch, English, Germans, and French". Facts are facts. Fair is fair. Reread the links and highlighted facts above. Thank you. 69.209.236.191 19:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
You again? Are you back from today's shuffleboard game? Thanks for all your laughs. Jayjg, whoever you are, you (and the "gang" that circumvents Wikipedia's 3R Rules) are the ones preoccupied with Jews and weaving Jewish distortion and revision into Wikipedia, as your Talk page and Wikipedia editing activities confirm. Are you going to deny this also? Denial of Jewish history in S. Africa, as outlined in the link provided, is just not factual and it will not fly, sorry. 69.209.236.191 23:55, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Impi: you again? I was hoping for an unbiased, third-party contributor and not another one of your POV buddies. I can see this is going nowhere fast. You continue to avoid and evade the matter at hand: Kindly provide any reasonable evidence that the Jewish community was not an integral part of S. Africa's economic and political landscape as the inclusion states. Let's review the inclusion: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, Diaspora Jews and other European settlers followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military and political control and the control of land and wealth."
Why cannot you grasp that this is inclusive and accurate? S. Africa was settled by Dutch, Germans, French, English, other Europeans (Irish, Portuguese, Italians) and Diaspora Jews. Is this not a fact? What is your problem? It is not accurate to include Diaspora Jews in with the "Europeans" because history proves they were considered separate and distinct as an ethnic & religious group, it is confirmed by Jewish history and S. African history. Were there not different laws for "Europeans" and Jews in S. African history (answer: Yes), and then later the Jewish community was classified White during apartheid (answer: Yes)?
So: 1) They were seen as separate and distinct groups, so the inclusion is accurate and clear. 2) you cannot whitewash the activity and everyday complicity of the Jewish community during apartheid, right alongside the rest of the list of distinct groups. The Jews were heavily involved in the highly exploitative diamond and mining industries during apartheid, and well as highly active in politics and business. With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system. They were complicit in it. 69.209.236.29 20:48, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
More lame POV responses from jayjg (who is heavily towards Jewish bias User:Jayjg/Edits) and Impi--Again. Yawn. How predictable. Let us never hear about a sublist of of "Jewish" Nobel Prize winners ever again. From now on they will all be Europeans or Americans, etc. Your deletions are obviously not in good faith and are obviously biased. 69.209.236.29 21:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Impi: you again? Yawn. jayjg is obsessed with jewish related issues on Wikipedia User:Jayjg/Edits. SlimVirgin has been accused of the same by others. It is not unusual to find them together operating as a team to avoid Wikipedia's 3 Revert rule. They are discredited. But back to the inclusion at hand......I have yet to have anyone explain why "europeans" and "diaspora jews" should be combined when it's clear that the communities were different and distinct. Let's not even get into the relationship between S. Africa and Israel and S. African Zionists. The "European" settlers and Jewish settlers were distinct groups and you know it. 69.217.125.53 20:14, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ad hominem attacks, you should know. Impi you have provided no back-up for your deletion. None whatsoever. Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Please answer the question.
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
In 1902, the British defeated the Boers and, in 1910, they formed four British South African colonies. The British gave the Jews equal status to the other white citizens.
Apartheid Regime
With the institutionalization of apartheid agenda, anti-Semitism was no longer a major issue. Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system 69.217.125.53 19:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century."
That's it. So......in other words if the term "European settlers" stays in, then someone might not otherwise know that S. Africa had an important, thriving Jewish community also. To list the Jewish community alongside the other groups is being factual and inclusive, and it's adding clarity to the article. How can you not see that? You have to look at the statement/change itself. Since when is adding minor clarity (2 words) to an article a massive rewrite or throwing it off NPOV? It is not. It adds simple, concise and accurate clarity and you know it. Read the sentence again. I believe you are reading far too much into it. The Jewish community existed, separate and distinct from the Dutch, Germans, French, English and other Europeans. You know it. How is that so objectionable? It's being clear. A Jewish community did exist and does exist, separate and distinct, and that's all the 2 word Inclusion states. AmYisrael 00:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jewish settlers in south africa had to profess their allegiance to Christianity. However, after 1803, they were free to express their religion. Numbers have the jews at around 100,000 in the 70 and 80's population of s. africa. Apartied policies could not have been influenced by such a small population of people. To make such allegations without substantial proof is borderline criminal. Your anti-semitic issues are prevelant. Here is a short list of aparteid leaders, please tell me which are jewish: President PW Botha, J.B.M. Hertzog, DF Malan, J.G. Strijdom, H.F. Verwoerd, B.J. Vorster.
In contrast, historically, the afrikaaners were german sympathizers post ww2. One with an intelligent understanding of geopolitics could easily see the anglo-saxon(german) racial bias, ie: nazi type ideology. Pro christian, pro white. To say jews were outright leaders of aparteid would contradict history. My personal opinion, you are trying to tie in racial prejudice of the aparteid regime to the current Israeli political status, very devious. -- PrinceMarko 14:42, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As there seems to be no ongoing meaningful discussion here, I'm unprotecting. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 02:34, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Until the deletionist can justify that action, the inclusion should remain in place as it is accurate. Deletionist: Kindly tell us all why the Jewish community should be combined with European settlers, when there is ample evidence that the communites were very distinct and separate? Thank you.
Dewet: Likewise. I see that nobody can or will justify the deletion campaign other than based on ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to the facts, not ad hominem attacks. So again: Facts have been put forward to justify the Inclusion, no facts have been put forward to justify the Deletions. AmYisrael 21:45, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
More ad hominem nonsense. Jpgordon stick to the facts and kindly stop personal attacks. The consensus is based on ad hominem illogic as there is no support put forth to support the Deletions, just personal attacks.
It seems to me that the person commenting on the Jewish diaspora in South Africa at the time of apartied has a bias against them. Historically, the jews in south africa have been very very few. To insinuate that they were major players in Apartied is juvenile.
"Persons of Jewish descent found their way to the Cape from the earliest beginnings of white settlement. However, they could not be professing Jews before the beginning of the 19th century because the Dutch East India Company's rules required that all who were in its service at the Cape must profess the Reformed Christian religion. Only after freedom of religion was introduced at the Cape under the Batavian republic in 1803 was it possible for anyone who openly professed his/her adherence to the Jewish faith to live in the country.
From that time onwards a small trickle of individual Jews, for the most part from England and Germany, began to arrive. Some remained permanently, while others later returned to their home countries. There were among them colourful and adventurous personalities.
In 1841, seventeen Jews organised the first Hebrew Congregation in Cape Town. They named it Tikvat Israel Congregation (the Hope of Israel). By the end of the 1860s, several hundred Jews were living in South Africa. They played a significant part in cultural and civic life and added materially to the country's economic progress. Some had settled in remote places. A number lost their identity as Jews."
Only around 100,000 jews were in South Africa during the 70's and 80's. Such numbers cannot even begin to influence a society enmasse, especially on social/political issues. PrinceMarko
According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority. Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30
AmYisrael 00:29, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
jpgordon, provide your reasoning for Deletions. Two words added to the article provide clarity that would not otherwise exist. Other European settlers and Diaspora Jews should not be combined. Why should they? Be an inclusionist. Wikipedia should not be changed if it means knowledge will be lost (unnecessary deletions). The subject at hand (deletion) on this article reduces the clarity and diminishes facts. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, it is not limited in size. Unless you can provide any basis for the Deletionism, it will not stand. There is nothing objectionable about the facts: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century." That statement is TRUE. Provide any basis for saying it is untrue, before you Delete. AmYisrael 14:04, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
jpgordon, Let's recap the following, since you have misunderstood Wikipedia:
Now, are you trying to tell me that a group of Deletionists, that have not proven the Inclusion untrue.....makes the Inclusion False? The Inclusion is fact and it is true, and it should not be removed due to bias. Until the Inclusion is proven false, it should remain. Wikipedia is about seeking the facts, not protecting consensual or systemic bias. Reread again jpgordon. Unless the Inclusion is false, which it is not, it should remain. Using the rationale of the Deletionists, we might as well remove the French from the list, and also the Germans, and "other European settlers". This is not a good idea, as it deletes fact and history. The Diaspora Jewish community is significantly distinct from the others on the list, and it ought not be deleted. AmYisrael 14:53, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Deletionists are disputing the following statement: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century." This statement is true, and it therefore should not be deleted. 69.217.125.53 15:10, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Since when is making a factual, two-word inclusion twisting the facts? Remove the French from the list if you want to be a Deletionist. It's not a good idea to be a deletionist in Wikipedia, which is not a paper encyclopedia limited in size. The inclusion is factual and not a "twist". Wikipeida is open for anyone to edit. As the inclusion is fact, it should remain. Feel free to add to Wikipedia also, if your inclusion is correct, it's good. 69.222.253.40 17:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"What were the religions of the other settlers? -Willmcw 20:01, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)" You could find out and tell us......But the subject matter at hand (the list) is based on ethnic groups not religion. 69.222.253.40 17:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but then what should we do with the list: Dutch, Germans, French, English, other European Settlers, Diaspora Jews? How can any of these groups be listed and with others removed without claiming bias? They were all considered "White" and profitted under the apartheid system. That's being factual, unbiased, and inclusive, right? 69.221.60.181 21:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I dunno. The apartheid system classified the Jews as White. However, the powers that ran apartheid surely didn't view the Europeans and Jews as the same. Why should we rewrite history? 69.221.60.181 17:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Slimvirgin's decision to protect the article again would normally be good, I think, but I sense that the situation is now much calmer than it has been recently. I want to give you all a chance to work this out without edit warring, and that means trusting you all to make the right decisions without Big Brother looking over your shoulder. For that reason I took the unusual step of reversing Slimvirgin's protection of this article. I do not take Amyisrael's last revert as evidence of bad faith--his stated reason seems to suggest a willingness to discuss. However if the edit war resume to any great extent then protection would again be in order. I hope we don't have to do that because it makes dialog much more difficult. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 21:24, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well if he really is beyond hope the solution would not lie in stopping the eleven editors, and everybody else, from editing the article, along with the guy who disagrees with them. This is a Wiki, you have to be an insane optimist to even consider editing here. -- Tony Sidaway| Talk 23:22, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The original "Dutch" settlers of South Africa surely had an ethnic mixture similar to those that founded
New Netherland (later greater New York City and the Hudson Valley). There included the Dutch, but there were also many French and Walloon
Huguenots, refugees from anti-Protestant persecution, whose religious beliefs were nearly identical to those of the Dutch Reformed Church and were readily asimilated into Dutch culture and economic life. Many of the Germans were soldiers hired by the Dutch settlement organization, and as late as the 17th century the distinction between Dutch and north German was slight. There were English settlers in Holland escaping the religious persecutins between Protestant groups. With a smattering of other Europeans (Scandinavians and more Germans) they settled the Dutch colonies. They themselves all assimilated into the Dutch way of life.
To say that under Dutch rule that the "French did this, the Germans did this, the English did this" becomes absurd. The white settlers of South Africa became a melting pot in their own right, and one can't compartmentalize people by ethnicity after the melting pot starts assimilating people into one common culture. That culture was clearly Dutch even if genealogies indicate that some Afrikaner has little Dutch ancestry. -- 66.231.38.97 2 July 2005 05:47 (UTC)
That's great insight, thank you. Many editors involved in this discussion don't have a problem blaming "Germans" and "French" at all, that hypocrisy been pointed out before. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:14 (UTC)
I am proposing chopping up these two articles and making three articles out of them: an article about history before apartheid, an article about apartheid and the history of South Africa during the apartheid era, and an article about the history of South Africa after the end of apartheid. This would entail merging the apartheid material from the two articles, so this article would be drastically transformed. Please discuss this on Talk:History of South Africa, not here, since we need to have a single place to discuss it, and this talk page currently appears to be dysfunctional due to the revert war.-- Bcrowell 21:46, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking back on the history, the following editors have opposed the unilateral attempts of our multiple IP/sockpuppet editor to include the POV-pushing trivia: User:Anilocra, User:Dewet, User:El C, User:Humus sapiens, User:Impi, User:Jayjg, User:Jpgordon, User:PrinceMarko, User:SlimVirgin, User:Tony Sidaway, User:Weyes That makes 11, if I have that correct, please let me know if I've added one incorrectly or missed one. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
So jayjg thinks the Jews and the South African Jewish community are a "trivia dump". That's your opinion that Chaim Weizmann and Jan Smuts would have disagreed with. I see jayjg that you are still not claiming the Inclusion is false. What you may think is trivial, is not trivial to others. As the inclusion is accurate, it should remain. The Inlcusion is not a "trivial dump" and you know it. It's history. Sorry. 69.221.63.132 21:59, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've protected the page on the last version by Jayjg because of the reverts, and possibly a 3RR violation, by an anon IP and a new user account. When any of the regular editors wants to start editing again, let me know and I'll unlock it. If I'm not around, ask any other admin, or post a request to Wikipedia:Requests for protection. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 20:46, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, we can see that Jayjg has violated the 3R Rule. Have a great day, 69.221.63.132 21:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you have reverted this article many times. You support deletions of fact. That about sums it up. Cheers! 69.221.63.132 22:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Everyone has indeed focussed on the inclusion, and pointed out to you again and again that it is trivia that is not-notable. However, you keep ignoring that, and instead use ad hominem illogic about revert teams, other editors POVs, "it's true therefore it must be in there" etc. Jayjg (talk) 15:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, it is not illogic to discuss your Revert Team violations to circumvent Wikipedia rules. The actions are clear for anyone to see. 69.209.230.73 16:00, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. English, other European settlers, and Diaspora Jews followed in the 19th century. As was typically the case in the African colonies, the European settlers dominated the indigenous population through military, political, and economic control of the land and wealth." This statement is true, and it therefore should not be deleted.
HISTORY, not trivia:
19th Century
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
Apartheid Regime
"Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities."
Jews as part of White Ruling Class in South Africa
"According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority. Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30" 69.209.230.73 15:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Who'd have thought a factual 2-Word inclusion would cause so much trouble? The question to ask is why some editors want to delete, revise and deny simple facts?
Actually, the question is why one person would want to insert trivia in order to promote a POV they've been pushing for months, against the better judgement of 11 other editors? Your agenda in trying to promote this is clear, and has been from the start, but that still doesn't make it worth noting in this overview article. Jayjg (talk) 15:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Actually, I know it's trivial, and it has been called trivial, or non-noteworthy, since you started inserting it. Well, first you inserted false information, then when that was reverted you kept refining it until you finally had it down to something true, but still trivial. You keep pretending the issue is about whether or not it is "true", or claiming some non-existent policies such as "Wikipedia is Inclusionary, you should not be Deleting facts." Your agenda is to promote the POV that Jews are responsible for Apartheid, along with a little bit of David Irving defending/ADL bashing. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Cheers. Jayjg (talk) 20:43, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's not trivial and you know it. You have deleted factual information to suit your POV. And yes, Wikipedia is not your soapbox for volumes of Jewish propaganda, but you aren't fooling anyone, who are you kidding: User:Jayjg/Edits User_talk:Jayjg The inclusion is FACT. Really jayjg, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. Cheers!! The Inclusion is fact.
HISTORY, not trivia:
19th Century
"The discovery of diamonds in 1867 in Kimberly attracted Jewish entrepreneurs and businessman from all over the world. (Diaspora Jews) Because of the extensive Jewish trade network, Jews immediately became involved in the diamond and precious stones industry. Two famous Jewish South African entrepreneurs were Barney Barnato and Sammy Marks. Barnato founded the De Beers Consolidated Mines for mining diamond fields."
Apartheid Regime
"Jewish/Israeli involvement in the apartheid era was mixed; as a whole the South African Jewish community did not speak out against the apartheid system, although a number of small organizations and individuals were involved in anti-apartheid activities."
Jews as part of White Ruling Class in South Africa
"According to many observers, the South African Jewish Community had become by the end of the First World War, the wealthiest Jewish community in the world on a per capita basis. Nor was the "size" of the Jewish minority, as Rabbi Dr. Andre Ungar observed, a true reflection of the position of the Jews in South African life:
"it would be a grievous mistake to underestimate the significance of the Jewish minority.
Even purely numerically speaking, under the absurd rules of South African arithmetic, the size of the Jewish population constitutes a factor necessary to reckon with...in the two main cities, Johannesburg and Cape Town, the Jews constitute one-tenth of the citizens "that count": the Whites." "The Abdication of a Community" Africa South, III (January-March 1959), pp. 29-30" 69.209.230.73 15:45, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) 69.217.207.73 21:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I haven't inserted any Jewish propaganda into this article, I (along with many other editors) have just rejected your many attempts to use trivia to push a POV. As for your other claims, you're just repeating yourself; you have yet to convince even one other editor that you are correct on this, and there are at least 11 who disagree with you. That should tell you something. Now why don't you go add Bill Clinton's shoe size to the article on him? Remember, it's size 13. That's HISTORY! Jayjg (talk) 01:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would first like to explain that the anonymous editor solicited my attention on my talk page, because I am listed at m:Association_of_Inclusionist_Wikipedians. Second, I would like to commend both Jayg and the anonymous editor for not descending into total absurdity as they debate their points, using references and making cogent arguments.
About the argument: I am not qualified to say whether the inclusion of references to Jewish settlers who did not oppose apartheid is strictly relevent; it certainly seems superfluous. It may be factually true, and is ostensibly providing more information, but this does not qualify it for inclusion into an article about apartheid. This does not explicitly exclude it from the article, but so often on wikipedia are there claims of pro-Jewish propaganda that I am inclined to think the anonymous editor is being disingenuous and, as Jayg said, "pushing a POV." However, a quick glance at Jayg's edit history and talk page reveals that he/she edits many a page related to Judaism, perhaps provoking the anonymous editor's suspicions.
The argument itself is not one of inclusionism versus deletionism, or trivia versus history, it is about maintaining both neutrality and usefulness. If we were to include every ethnicity and religion of settlers of South Africa, the article would be staggeringly overblown, and make retreiving useful information a nightmare. To say that South Africa was simply settled would again be useless. To include relevant information about the background of settlers is to acheive usefulness, but to include disingenuous information or exclude relevant information is to unbalance the neutrality of the article. Because this is such a fine line, no one editor should tread it alone. Hence we have talk pages and community consensus.
In this particular case, Jayg was appointed an administrator because he tends to make reasonable decisions, according to the WP community (or cabal, as some would have it). Also, other editors have supported him in this argument, and so do I. Therefore, the community decision is to exclude the information about Jewish settlers on this page. This edit war should never have gone on this long, and I hope that the anonymous editor will let the community decide and focus his/her efforts on other, more productive projects on WP.
So my recommendation to both Jayg and the anonymous editor is to take a break from this page and let those not so personally involved make educated decisions about neutrality. I once again commend both of you for your hard work and patience, and your dedication to your causes. But remind yourselves that editing should be fun, not pain. Wikipedia is outrageously fun, and edit wars are lame. If this continues, it may end up on WP:LAME, and nobody wants that. Two words, after all, should not be that important to either party. Sorry for the length. I hope this helps. - Matthew Cieplak (talk) (edits) 05:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, let's, as I said earlier. A note about the last sentence of [3]: even without the context, it is clear that the ZA Jewish community is significant in terms of world Jewish populations, not in terms of the ZA immigrant communities. Tomer TALK 23:23, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
As a late addition, I see that this war has now been taken to the South Africa article as well. Our anon editor is not displaying good intentions by clearly violating not only Wikipedia procedures, but trampling the community and its concensus. I suspect that for this reason alone, he will be opposed at every change he/she makes, simply because of this hard-headed attitude he/she is presenting. Dewet 06:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I agree WhatDoesKoshDoAllDay 06:18, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Someone is posting and making random edits in a negative fashion to try to sway the discussion away from the facts and matter at hand. Please do not fall for for edit/hate hoaxes. Can they be traced directly to any of the Deletionists from this discussion, that might have logged off and posted using an IP address? I'd like to know, if at all possible. What is the IP address associated with Jayjg? An Admninstrator might look. Thanks. 69.217.123.174 15:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The IP addresses are totally different. The vandalism has nothing to do with me or this particular discussion, unless it is being faked as an attempt to generate emotional responses. 69.217.123.174 16:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, there has been a bogus edit on the History of South Africa article, which may indicate that this is spilling over into that article as well.-- Bcrowell 16:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BTW, you are being dishonest to this discussion. The only person who thinks this is "spilling over" is you. [ [5]] How can somebody's edit about Evolution have anything to do with discussing the fact that Diaspora Jews settled in S. Africa, right alonside the Dutch, the French, the Germans, the English, and other European Settlers? 69.217.123.174 16:41, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yes, let's overlook your hastily made accusations and personal attacks against User 69.217.123.174 that were incorrect. 69.217.123.174 17:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you cannot determine authorship of an edit, then don't make accusations. That's simple too. That vandalism doesn't reflect on me, it reflects poorly on the hoax editors or the vandals whoever they may be. 69.217.123.174 17:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, were you the vandal or not? 69.217.123.174 18:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Of course not. Are you all the various sockpuppets that have been reverting articles, including Azure1, FYI, SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon3Rrules, TeamRevertViolation, AmYisrael, EzraHabonim and Bethshalom? Also, I'm not sure why you continue to focus so strongly on me; many other editors here have both disgreed with you and reverted you as well. Jayjg, how many people have you censored or banned for your personal reasons? Let me make this clear, Jayjg: You will not censor anyone according to your own whims and bias. Never. Wikipedia is open to contributions from all people. 69.221.60.181 20:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regardless, didn't you say it would be a good idea to take a break from this article to "let those not so personally involved make educated decisions about neutrality"? I note that your verifiable contributions to Wikipedia so far include:
To many people that would suggest that you are not able to be neutral about the subject of Jews;
I suggest you start following your advice. Move on to Bill Clinton, for example; not only does he wear size 13 shoes, but he has the largest feet of any American president; Abraham Lincoln also wore size 13 shoes, but his feet weren't as wide. An "inclusionist" like yourself knows that these facts must be documented on Wikipedia; the project is suffering deeply for every second the information is not prominently displayed in the article. Jayjg (talk) 19:25, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Regarding edits on Wikipedia, Bcrowell, paraphrasing your words, you are implying that one must have 1) a user account, 2) a reputation, 3) be a part of the Wikipedia community (however defined), and 4) have established a realistic picture of oneself to others, and 5) be easily identifiable as to "where one is coming from". I am sorry but that is pure BS. An editor does not need the 5 items listed above. The focus is the edit itself, not ad hominem nonsense. It's a shame that my two-word edit, factually correct and true, for some has been perceived unworthy not based on its own merits, but based on self-righteous ad hominem bias such as requiring an editor have a made-up user account name, etc.
As you may have forgotten: Wikipedia is open for anyone to edit, you don't need a user account, etc. etc. Kindly reread what I had to post for Jpgordon a couple of times already. [ [7]]
Censorship based on ad hominem illogic, and based against perceived bias against an editor (and not focused on the edit itself) is wrong and you know it. Jpgordon: Reread for the 4th time:
A small group consensus as of 6-22-2005 does not mean the article is set in stone forever or that the 2-Word Inclusion you personally dislike is wrong. Wikipedia is open for editing. It's not about censorship. If an edit is factual and made in good faith, you ought not censor it. What really disappointing about your activity is the collusion and communication you employ with a small group to circumvent the open input process and basically censor that which your bias dislikes. 69.221.60.181 19:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) 19:52, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the list is: Dutch, Germans, French, English, Diaspora Jews, and other European Settlers? How can any of these groups be listed with others removed without claiming bias? They were all considered "White" and profited under the apartheid system. That's being factual, unbiased, and inclusive, right? 69.221.60.181 21:23, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Include them if you like, but I believe they are covered by "other European Settlers". The inclusion is not "blame Jews for Apartheid". Nice try, but the Inclusion states Diaspora Jews settled in S. Africa in the 19th Century. That's it. Your paranoia POV is astounding. Read the words and please comprehend what they actually state, not what you "think" they might mean if you don't read them correctly. Are we blaming the French for apartheid by saying they were settlers? Also, the Jewish community in S. Africa was significant, there are plenty of references that have been provided substantiating it. Kindly read the Inclusion, do rely on ad hominem attacks accusing me of POV. The words are what they are, the facts are what they are also. 69.221.60.181 22:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Looking back on the history, the following editors have opposed the unilateral attempts of our multiple IP/sockpuppet editor to include the POV-pushing trivia: User:Anilocra, User:Dewet, User:Dystopos, User:El C, User:Humus sapiens, User:Impi, User:Jayjg, User:Jpgordon, User:Matthewcieplak, User:PrinceMarko, User:SlimVirgin, User:Tony Sidaway, Tuf-Kat, User:Weyes, User:WhatDoesKoshDoAllDay, That makes 15, if I have that correct, please let me know if I've added one incorrectly or missed one. Jayjg (talk) 21:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and you obviously never answered the question: Are you all the various sockpuppets that have been reverting articles, including Azure1, FYI, SlimVirginjayjgJpgordon3Rrules, TeamRevertViolation, AmYisrael, EzraHabonim and Bethshalom? Jayjg (talk) 22:01, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Spamming talk pages will not convince anyone you are right. Tuf-Kat 22:30, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, you will not censor anyone based on your personal whims and bias. Are you going to "ban" again and again and again? 69.221.60.181 22:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you going to continue to censor others on Wikipedia? I'd like to see a list of which Wikipedia admns. has banned the most editors. Can anyone produce such an analysis? I wonder where Jayjg would rank? 69.221.60.181 23:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No thanks, you go ahead and ban it. 69.221.60.181 21:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
BACK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND
Are the French and Germans trivial? Should they be deleted? I do not think deletions ought to be the prevailing policy. What is the point of Wikipedia if it sticks to traditional orthodoxy and does not progress? Wikipedia has room to include: "French, Germans, European Settlers, and diaspora Jews" as notable groups that settled in S. Africa. The inclusion does not blame the French or the Germans or the Jews for Apartheid, so let's not see spam with that one again. 69.221.60.181 16:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On May 2, 2005 there are posts by the Jpgordon/Jayjg POV team [ [12]]. That is not a consensus. Dutch, English, Germans, French and diapora Jews are separate and distinct groups. In S. Africa during the apartheid era, Jews were classifed as White alongside the Europeans, however the apartheid rulers did not view them as the same group, you have zero evidence to back that up. Why are you trying to rewrite history? That's the way it was then. You have not proved a case for the Deletion. 69.221.60.181 17:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No response Tomer, since you avoid the topic at hand and resort to ad hominem attacks. It's getting old. Deal with the subject of this section. 69.221.60.181 19:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, its been thoroughly amusing, and I'd like to summarise everything happening up to thus far in closing:
This is absolutely the last time I have chimed in on this increasingly silly matter. Dewet 19:07, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Explain just how many sources you need to justify that "diaspora Jews settled in South Africa in the 19th Century". I mean how can you possibly justify that statement as false to be deleted? It's just ridiculous. The 2-word inclusion does not blame the Germans or the French or the Jews for Apartheid. It discusses the fact that a distinct Jewish community (that is not, never was trivial) existed alongside the rest of the list. The debate is just gotten so twisted it need to refocus on the inclusion at hand. Geez. 69.221.60.181 20:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Throttle back a little on the censorship! :-) [ [13]] Jpgordon and Jayjg have not debated the subject valiantly, moreso from an intellectually dishonest position, twisting the meaning of the inclusion from what it actually states. 69.221.60.181 20:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
PS Again: Yes I know what ad hominem illogic is:
Regular Ad Hominem
1. 69.221.60.181 makes claim B; 2. there is something objectionable about 69.221.60.181 3. therefore claim B is false.
That about sums up the fallacy of this debate.
This section is about Google hits, so please no ad hominem attacks ( Wikipedia:No personal attacks), they will not be responded to. 69.221.60.181 19:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, but when I search Google I get
South African German -- 6,860,000 hits
South African French -- 22,600,000 hits
South African Huguenot -- 35,200 hits
South African Jewish -- 2,820,000 hits
To me living in South Africa there are far more Muslims than Jews. And being a english speaking white South African, I was not directly responsable for aparthied BUT I benefited from it by getting a good education while the majority of the people didn't. I know quite a few Jews who fought against aparthied but most of the Jews being white like me also benefited by the system. So you can't lay the blame of Aparthied at the feet of Jews, but at the feet of the whites, even me who got something out. I was so protected growing up that I didn't even know what was going on. During my forced 2 years in the army in the 80s threw me into the thick of things. I am thankful that South Africa has become the "Rainbow Nation". This nation of ours is a miricle. Now stop this mud slinging about who is to blame and get on with making this article a good and informative --
Jcw69 12:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank You
Jcw69 for contributing to the discussion. In any case, it appears that the relative and actual amounts of Google Hits shows that the South African Jewish community is indeed a meaningful one.
Humus sapiens Using that same logic: The article as it stands says "blame the Germans and French". Do you have a problem with that? I haven't heard you say such a thing so far, why bring it up now? However, the inculsion does not blame anyone and it doesn't contain the word blame. You, Jpgordon, Jayjg and maybe a few others with a "POV" are the ones that introduced the word "blame" into this discussion and nobody else has. Sorry. The article, sentence, and inclusion at hand do not blame the Germans or the French or anyone else. 69.221.60.181 15:27, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
On your Talk page: [ [14]] 69.221.60.181 15:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
First, the rebuttal used was that the Jewish community was/is trivial, that has been proven false. There are 13 times more hits than for the French or German. Other POV rebuttals dishonestly claimed the edit placed "blame", when it clearly does not. Then we have historical accuracy. The subject edit is historically accurate. Read the text. That argument is proven false as well.
So the only reason you can come up with now is: "when first written, it was decided to include the four major groups". Oh, 4 only. says whom? as determined by? that's set in stone forever on a Wiki project? [Impi], seriously, why do you think Wikipedia should simply copy and duplicate orthodoxy, and not progress? Wikpedia is not limited in size. Maybe you should be selling paper encyclopedias. ;-)
Every single piece of literature you read on South Africa's White population is unanimous that diaspora Jews settled in South Africa in the 19th Century, and that the Jews were classified as White during the apartheid era.
The subject edit is true and non-trivial and in no way places blame on any group. Please stop deleting the contribution to the article. The rebuttals have not withstood scrutiny. 69.221.60.181 16:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For anyone crazy enough to read this ridiculously long discussion and try to evaluate all the points logically, it may be relevant to look at Talk:Carlo Levi, where jayjg used Google to show that "Italian-Jewish" was more common than "Jewish-Italian." In my opinion, that use of Google makes sense, whereas the one the anon is proposing here does not.-- Bcrowell 2 July 2005 01:17 (UTC)
That's subjective and inconsistent. Kindly explain when, in your opinion, a Googletest is applicable and when it is not. It cannot be based on whether the results are "to your liking". Consistency should be applied, which Jayjg does not. Thanks. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 10:55 (UTC)
Also, you might want to have Jayjg get right on his mission and go correct the Sol Kerzner page where Jewish is listed before Russian. We can't have that kind of radical POV going on! Oh my! Call in the reinforcements!! 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:43 (UTC)
Google Hits (6-25-2005) for settler communities:
*"south african jewish" 9,130
*"south african english" 15,500 *"south african french" 720 *"south african huguenot" 17 *"south african german" 691 *"south african dutch" 656 *"south african irish" 864 *"south african portuguese" 201
Clearly, the South African Jewish settler community is not trivial. Therefore that argument is POV.
Matthew Cieplak Oh, I see. A Googletest is only applicable when it supports your position, when it does not, then let's toss it out? The numbers do not lie. Matthew, have you read any of the 9,000 google hits? They do not appear anti-semitic in any way. Calling them "brazen" is yet another example of the fact that most people haven't reviewed this discussion in detail, and are simply editing in a reactionary way. Review the 9,000 google hits, and tell us what you conclude. The rebuttal was that the contribution was "Trivial". That has been proven false, so why delete it? Those who would delete have provided no justification for their position. If we are going to have to talk about the so-called "blame" once again, (which the text does not), where is the outrage over including the French or the Germans? There is no blame being placed in that text, that issue is dead and a red herring anyway. The Google test is a great indicator that the Jewish community is noteworthy (relative or otherwise) in the history of White S. Africa during the 20th Century, and the results are off the charts supporting my position. What do you have to suggest otherwise?
69.221.62.82 18:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC) Can I get a barnstar now?!
Matthew Cieplak: I have responded to your comments. Please do not say that I haven't. You had concerns about:
You should not drag it on then. The facts are clearly laid out. 69.209.222.92 29 June 2005 05:19 (UTC)
How can you say your concerns were not addressed? Thank You.
Also, refutations have been provided against:
I'd like to stress again that the anon has failed to bring any reputable impartial source. The quantity does not substitute for quality, and circular arguments or blaming the Cabal does not add anyone credibility. Speaking of which, the range of anon's contibs speaks for itself. ← Humus sapiens← Talk 28 June 2005 22:32 (UTC)
Dear Humus, Cabal? The text blames nobody. are you trying to use that tired and oft-used Canard and Slur again? You can throw it, but it won't stick. Now then:
12) So, we have a response that has nothing to do with this discussion. Again. 9,000 hits provide plenty of quality sources. Regarding my posts, what about them? What is your point? I encourage everyone to review them, and you'll understand the censorship that goes on. Somehow Humus Sapiens I get the feeling if you had the power to ban and censor, you would, like some others. Look at what impressive amounts of propaganda we are dealing with: [ [15]],[ [16]],[ [17]],[ [18]],[ [19]] Gee, do you have anything else to do? No wonder you're all here arguing about 2 words and put the page on lock-down. The Jews settled in S. Africa, that is irrefutable and there is tons of reputable proof. Here's yet another: [ [20]] and another [ [21]], and another: [ [22]] "the community has contributed much to the development of South Africa, making its mark on every facet of public life, commerce, industry, science, medicine, art, music, philanthropy, sport and academia." How is Sol Kerzner's Sun City resort doing these days? I remember the 1985 song by 45 " Artists against Apartheid" and U2. Please don't make me document the history of Jan Smuts and Chaim Weizmann to futher prove there was a South African Jewish community. By the way, how come you've not once whined about the French and German communities being on the list too? We all know why you have not. Cheers! [User:69.209.222.92|69.209.222.92]] 28 June 2005 22:46 (UTC)
Question: In 50 words, more or less, what do you object to, in the article in its present protected state?
Answers:
I'm going to unprotect this page; it's been too long. If another revert war starts, I will point out 3RR violations at WP:AN/3RR, but I will not enforce, as I am too involved. -- jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 29 June 2005 00:23 (UTC)
The conclusion suggests that there will be no more reverts or deletion based on POV bias unless justified. The facts have been laid out clearly, and more reverts and censorship are not acceptable. If you continue to revert, the revert violations will be noted. Please do not revert and start the same problem. Do not revert, move on. 69.209.222.92 29 June 2005 05:12 (UTC)
I would like to stress that strong-worded and radical declarations from an anonymous IP do not speak much in its favour. I suggest that the tone would be put down a little bit, and that the suggested modifications be discussed on the talk page, along with good references.
The argument "Do not delete the modifications without discussion" can also read "do not apply the modifications without discussion", and given the balance here, it might be a good solution if our anonymous contributor could take the on himself to make the step. Rama 29 June 2005 06:47 (UTC)
The modifications have been than justified, footnoted, tested, referenced, googletested, explained, articulated and defended. The text is accurate.
It makes sense then, that a random revert, without providing any new information or a comment in Discussion is not justified. Wikipedia's dispute resolution provides a guide:
Unless someone has an improvement, or a Discussion summary associated with it, the reverts should not stand. Thanks.
69.209.199.237 29 June 2005 07:53 (UTC)
You are not following the discussion. 69.217.193.91 29 June 2005 17:01 (UTC)
Get it anon? Consensus here first. It's policy. Jayjg (talk) 29 June 2005 16:18 (UTC)
Oh, and while you're doing that, please explain why the religion of the various groups that settled in South Africa is both relevant and notable in the Apartheid article. Jayjg (talk) 29 June 2005 16:23 (UTC)
Nice tone there, Jayjg. Having problems with other editors too? [ [23]]
Perhaps you're not following the discussion before the multiple reverts. Jayjg, I trust that you are not an expert on South Africa, are you? Impi provided us the following information: "the vast majority of South Africa's white population descends from British, Dutch, French and German (mostly Protestant) immigrants. For example, the official South African government information site says: "The white population descends largely from the colonial immigrants of the late 17th, 18th and 19th centuries - Dutch, German, French Huguenot and British.", and the demographics statistics from the Demographics of South Africa article has the following: "86.8% of White residents are Christian, 8.8% have no religion, 0.2% are Muslim, 1.4% are Jewish." We are discussing demographics in 2 sentences in the article. The official South African government information site and Demographics of South Africa article contain simple religion and ethnicity data when discussing settlement demographics. It is done concisely and accurately. The improvement does the same thing, and I think it covers all the bases nicely:
2 sentences: "South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. The English followed in the 19th Century and these groups formed the main white Protestant population. Other smaller groups of Catholic European settlers and diaspora Jews followed in the 19th and 20th centuries."
The Demographics of South Africa article lists a Portuguese minority, maybe that list of notable minority communities needs to be briefly expanded on that page. 69.217.193.91 29 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Impi do you want to answer this? Jayjg, please stop censoring my IP addresses with insufficent or contrived reasons. 69.216.247.228 29 June 2005 18:49 (UTC)
Please keep in mind that we are discussing notable communities in the apartheid era, the latter-half of the 20th Century, not the 17th Century--I refer you once again to the googletest results. It is relevant and notable to reference statistics from authoritative sources in concise form as the authoritative sources present them.
Kindly show us the burden of proof rules for Wikipedia. 69.209.227.142 29 June 2005 21:27 (UTC)
The relevance has already been established ad nauseum. 9,000--39,000,000 Google links (depending on how you search), official Demographic sources, other Wikipedia links, non-Anti-semitic sources, popular history ( Sol Kerzner and Sun City), and thousands of history books, should a bibliography be required I can provide it. Jayjg, you have proved nothing other than your efforts to censor and revise history. Please do not keep censoring my IP addresses for insufficient reasons. 69.209.227.142 29 June 2005 21:27 (UTC)
Tomer, you are incorrect. The googletest was performed within quotes and without quotes. And the results are spectacularly off-the-charts supporting the Inclusion and improved text. One cannot toss one set of numbers and rely on another, that's POV. I am suggesting we do neither and remain inclusive and accurate, which the text does. Sorry, but you haven't been persuasive. The relevance has already been established ad nauseum: 9,000--39,000,000 Google links (depending on how you search), official Demographic sources, other Wikipedia links, non-Anti-semitic sources, popular history ( Sol Kerzner and Sun City), and thousands of history books, should a bibliography be required I can provide it.
jayjg, Where are the burdern of proof rules for Wikpedia? Until you come up with something new, I, like many others, will not bother to respond. The improved text is the most accurate, inclusive and appropriate. Your argument about triviality has long, long, long ago been debunked and proven false. Come up with something better, or you're just being trivial.
Do not block this user IP unless you have a reason. I will be watching, and if you ban this IP for no reason, you will be in violation of Wikipedia policy. Give up the censorship attempts already. 69.222.252.120 29 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
jayjg, why did you block/censor 69.222.252.120 moments after you were asked not to? Are you going to block this IP also? Then only you would be able to post to the discussion. 69.217.201.176 29 June 2005 22:22 (UTC)
Got it. I see that forming a "Revert Team" is a good way to circumvent and abuse the rule. The same reverts are made by a small group, to abuse the spirit and avoid the rule. The concept is sleazy, but Jayjg , your execution is excellent. [ [24]] [25] 69.209.225.226 29 June 2005 22:54 (UTC)
Jayjg, you have a track record of Censorship, and you are part of a Revert Team that pushes and jealously guards POV in many articles. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 20:13 (UTC)
"South Africa was settled initially by the Dutch, Germans and French from the 17th century onwards. The English followed in the 19th Century and these groups formed the main white Protestant population. Other smaller groups of Catholic European settlers and diaspora Jews followed in the 19th and 20th centuries."
This should be uniform across all S. Africa articles. 69.217.201.176 29 June 2005 22:33 (UTC)
-- Impi "Pollute" is an interesting choice of word, and what's with that nosehair analogy? But what's the alternative text that works? The text should provide more, not less, information to the reader (that's the whole point), and it should be accurate and brief. It should recognize the settlement groups and be inclusive of the Protestant Europeans -- (Dutch, French, Germans, English), the Catholic Europeans -- Portuguese, Irish, Italians), and the Jews. The following text adds information to the article, remains brief and accurate, and it recognizes the relativity of populations, does it not?:
It's a simple sentence that provides improvement and clarity to who comprised the Whites in the 20th Century. It recognizes the relative numbers but doesn't completely omit information to the reader that the Googletest proves is not trivia. It's an improvement to the article. The religious info would provide more information, and I don't think it "pollutes" to have it in there, but Impi what do you think of the text now (with religion removed)? The new text doesn't blame or highlight, it takes into account the concerns of all editors, it doesn't change the content of the article, but most importantly, it accurately informs the reader. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
I'm not Jewish, but have great respect for the broad river of humanitarianism, respect for learning, and socialism that began with the 'one-foot Torah lesson' of Rav Hillel (alav hashalom) and came out of the shtetls in a tidal wave during the late 1800s/early 1900s.
Apart perhaps from very secular Jews--and I mean very secular--Jews see themselves as a people apart, much as the Amish do. So I don't see a problem in calling out their immigration in the same way other distinct groups are called out. It would be the same if a group of Amish or Japanese or Jivaro had immigrated to SA--the number is less important than the fact that this is a group that chooses to set itself apart.
That's my take, anyway. Katzenjammer 29 June 2005 20:44 (UTC)
May I offer another take on it, which clarify matters a little?
I hope that moves the discussion forward. -- Red King 30 June 2005 20:01 (UTC)
Are you saying the Jewish communities all over the world, and throughout history, are "miniscule" in relevance just because of mere population percentages? I think Wikipedia itself debunks that argument. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:15 (UTC)
On the contrary, the only person using Slurs, tired old Canards, and the word Cabal is you Tomer. Go figure. Cheers. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 21:52 (UTC)
OK, so I may be feeding the trolls of this argument with this, but according to the 2001 Census, the current Jewish population of South Africa stands at 0,2%. Compare this to 1,2% Hinduism, 1,5% Islam, and 0,9% Eastern Orthodox, there is a stronger case to be said that Russian immigrants were a more important factor in South Africa's history than the Jews.
Also, Anonymous editor, please get a user ID. They are easy to get, and your argument is not helped by not having a permanent user name. Páll 29 June 2005 23:13 (UTC)
I've had ID's, but User:Jayjg tracks the user name and then reverts edits all across Wikpedia. If one becomes a "target" so to speak, look out, all subsequent posts will be tracked and then almost immediately reverted without discussion. That's been my experience. Even with IP addresses, he still manages to follow and revert. It's abusive.
You don't know the facts about the abuse, so please stop speculating, and kindly stop personal attacks, they are against WP policy ( Wikipedia:No personal attacks). My experience is as I stated. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:02 (UTC)
Regarding population, you have to look at the percentage of the White population. Plus the Googletest results are highly significant. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 16:03 (UTC)
That's your opinion. The are 13 times more Google hits than for the French or Germans. We are talking about the 20th Century in SA, not the 17th Century. The Jewish community was and is noteworthy in SA. The text does not place blame, so why are you so concerned? The fact that Jewish communities were minorities in many countries doesn't mean they weren't notable and worthy of interest and discussion. Wikipedia is proof positive of that. South Africa is no different. The text is straightforward, accurate, and it doesn't place any blame. So, get over it already and stop pushing revisionist POV and denial. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 18:50 (UTC)
I revert vandalism, as you should do also. Please do stop repeating yourself, if you are simply going to neglect the discussion at hand. Kindly review the new proposed text. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 21:58 (UTC)
please update the interwiki link for zh from [[zh:种族隔离]] to [[zh:南非的種族隔離]], thank you. -- R.O.C 30 June 2005 02:02 (UTC)
-- 168.209.98.35 1 July 2005 22:13 (UTC)
The article gives the English pronunciation of "Apartheid" as [əˈpɑː(r)teɪt] or [-taɪt]. The first of those I have no doubt whatsoever is as a result of politicking by Anglophone schoolmarms teaching their impressionable pupils that the word means "a part hate", and that that is how it should be pronounced. That said, the article should at least include /ʌ 'pʼʌɺtʼ ha:ʲd/, which is the only pronunciation I've ever heard from English speakers who weren't specifically calling it "a part hate", with the exception of a few who hypercorrect it as /ʌ 'pʼʌɺ θa:ʲd/ or even /ʌ 'pʼa:ɺ θa:ʲd/ (which are even more ridiculous sounding). Tomer TALK July 1, 2005 22:02 (UTC)
This provides improvement and clarity as to who comprised the whites in the 20th Century. It recognizes the relative numbers among the whites and it does not completely omit information that the Googletest proves is not trivial. The new text doesn't blame or highlight, it doesn't change the content of the article, it informs the reader, improves the article, and most importantly, it takes into account the concerns of all editors. 69.209.210.198 1 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)
This is just the right level of detail to provide information and clarity, but excludes all information which has been proven to be misleading trivia, and, most importantly, takes into account the overwhelming consensus of editors on this page. Jayjg (talk) 1 July 2005 22:16 (UTC)
Dream On. Artists United Against Apartheid boycotted Sol Kerzner's Sun City, South Africa resort due to its adherence and promotion of apartheid policies. Just who worked at the mining companies? To say the Jewish community was never integrated into White ZA society is pure revision. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:27 (UTC)
Are you a Jayjg sockpuppet? Jayjg references Googletests if they support his arguments, but interestingly he doesn't want to apply it consistently here, solely because it doesn't support his POV. Sad. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:22 (UTC)
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
No, that's not accurate at all.
The best and most accurate NPOV text is:
It is clear that a few biased editors have no problem including "other European Settlers" on the list, but want to skip over the fact that the Jews were considered white in 20th Century South Africa also. Kindly explain why you don't object to the inclusion of other "European Settlers"? There hasn't been one peep of an objection. What were the relative numbers of "European settlers" that are acceptable for the list? How do they compare?
Jpgordon, is right, and his opinion reflects historical accuracy to say that the "other European settlers" and "diapora Jews" considered each other separate in ethnicity. That is manifested today in the fact that a European-descended South African wouldn't be given citizenship in Israel. The Jewish community sees a distinct difference, and it's backed up in historical fact going both ways.
It is not proper to combine them. It is intellectually dishonest to list one and not the other, that's POV. 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 11:08 (UTC)
. . .for all those who are wrangling over the subject that fills most of this talk page and several of its archives: work on writing History of the Jews in South Africa (currently a redlink) and work on turning Jews in South Africa into something more than a redirect to African Jew. Then you can go into detail about South African Jews and apartheid (whether as tacit collaborators or outspoken opponents) and link to that information from here. — Charles P. (Mirv) 2 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. But that still doesn't address the inequities of listing the 17th Century "Germans" and "French", and other "European" settlers, while some editors like Josh want to conspicuously omit the ZA Jewish community of the 20th Century. It's totally POV, and the googletest is off-the-charts supporting the inclusion in the text, which once again, is accurate and truthful. Unles someone can improve the text, we have no consensus as to what the text should state. It cannot be discriminatory. Right? 69.209.210.198 2 July 2005 19:06 (UTC)
Charles P.'s suggestion is excellent. There is a clear consensus that the current text does not need to be "improved" by adding a reference to Jews. The current text does need to be improved in many other ways, and that can't be done if it's only unprotected for a few hours every month. The problem is that regardless of how many good suggestions like Charles P.'s we get, all it amounts to is feeding an anonymous troll who has shown no intention of making any constructive contributions to wikipedia or of doing any real research. What we seem to have learned here is that the structure of wikipedia allows an intentionally disruptive anon to paralyze an article indefinitely.-- Bcrowell 2 July 2005 19:45 (UTC)
Bcrowell, there has been plenty of research done, please review the rebuttal summary. Please respond to the intellectual dishonesty going on, regarding the 17th Century "French" and "Germans" being placed on the list. Only a few editors, those that know S. Africa history, have addressed it. The obvious editors have no problem with "Germans", "French" and "Europeans", but are revising the fact that diaspora Jews likewise were considered white. It's dishonest pure and simple, please address this issue, and refrain from personal attacks. 69.219.53.138 4 July 2005 17:41 (UTC)
When I clicked on the link to edit this talk page, I got this message: "This page is 186 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable." A little silly, huh? Think of the amount of productive effort by intelligent people that's been wasted here. On consideration, I'm not so sure that, as I suggested above, this silliness shows that "the structure of wikipedia allows an intentionally disruptive anon to paralyze an article indefinitely." If we step back for a minute and think about what wikipedia is really about, what really defines it, in contrast to its failed predecessor Nupedia, is its attitude of "yeah baby, bring it on!" No holds barred. Just do it. Steal This Book. The fundamental assumption is that if something is broken, people who care will come along and fix it. Protecting the page continuously for months at a time betrays a fundamental lack of faith in what wikipedia is all about. Jayjg, let's unprotect the page, and leave it unprotected, and see what happens. Protecting it just feeds into the anon's cult of victimhood. I have my three reverts locked and loaded.-- Bcrowell 3 July 2005 05:26 (UTC)
I propose that we conduct a vote which shall last 5 days (beginning at 08:00:00 UTC, Sunday July 3, 2005. Votes closing 08:00:00 UTC, Friday, July 8, 2005):
The purpose of which is to determine the inclusion or exclusion of specific "significant groups" in the makeup of ZA's White population as outlined in the article:
This vote shall not consider anonymous IP addresses, nor registered wikipedians with fewer than 500 edits not directly related to this issue prior to June 30, 2005:
Please reread:
The subject of this vote is the wording proposed by Jayjg as opposed to that by the vandalistic and increasingly verbally abusive anon:
The subject of this vote is the wording proposed by Jayjg as opposed to that by the anonymous editor most recently editing as User:69.209.210.198, as 69.*.*.* generally, and also as User:Novato and User:AmYisrael.
This vote shall authoritatively determine the wording of the "white origins" sections of the Apartheid article for a period to last NOT LESS THAN TWO MONTHS:
The two forwarded proposals are as follows:
Comments in favor of neither:
Comments in favor of either:
Miscellaneous commentary:
YES, THIS VOTE IS DESIGNED TO SQUELCH, and censor the facts of the settlement of South Africa, especially in the 19th and 20th centuries. Wikipedia is not limited in size. The improved text (two words) improves the accuracy of the article, and takes into account the concerns of all editors, except those that want to totally delete/withhold accurate information "just because they don't like it". It's not about being on a losing side. It's about honesty, accuracy, and historical fact.
The two should be consistent, not inconsistent, that's POV. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 14:04 (UTC)
Oh, what happened to the "French"? The diaspora Jews settled in South Africa. Reread the text. It does not say blame the Jews, which is the ONLY issue you care about, not facts, not truth, not historical accuracy, nothing else but your biased POV.
Thank you. Jayjg is still here pushing his POV, that has already been disproven. The Jewish community was considered white, and it was a relevant and notable community in the 20th Century. The 17th Century Germans and French, that Jayjg dishonestly demands be on the list, were much less significant as political or economic entities during the 20th Century in South Africa. This the Googletest proves with flying colors. After all this time, nobody has addressed the inequities of the text as it relates to "the list" until now, even after many requests. So thank you for contributing and not joining a kangaroo court. Not one person has addressed the history of Jan Smuts and Chaim Weizmann and the political implications and issues that resulted during the apartheid era. Irrelevant? Maybe to some with a history of POV. The improved text is accurate, fair and inclusive. The amount of denial and POV by a few problematic editors, lasting over 2 months, in the face of mountains of information and thoroughly researched and footnoted data, is staggering. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:12 (UTC)
This is not a new proposal, it's a reiteration of the same intellectually vacuous arguments that the anon has been repeating for months, and that have already been rejected by a clear consensus of the editors who are interested in this article.-- Bcrowell 5 July 2005 17:16 (UTC)
That's the same empty rhetoric you've been using for months. Empty. It adds nothing, it contributes nothing. Address the issues raised, just one time. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:19 (UTC)
--Why don't you try taking a stab at some text that all editors can agree with? that is fair and accurate and doesn't omit information to a reader? 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:28 (UTC)
Thus far, only editor Impi has attempted to improve the text. Many other editors have popped into the discussion offering suggestions also. However, certain Jewish POV editors Tomer, Jayjg , jpgordon have abused the open collaboration effort have used censorship and supressed the facts, and have not offered a text that avoids dishonesty. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 14:15 (UTC)
Please work to provide an improved text below in lieu of censorship and POV:
"This page is 211 kilobytes long. This may be longer than is preferable; see article size." It seems obvious to me that the anon is trying to distract attention from the vote, by cutting and pasting the same arguments over and over again, in an attempt to crapflood this talk page. Maybe if he can get the vote to scroll way off the top of the screen, he can keep people from noticing that the consensus is overwhelmingly against him, and that all his arguments have already been debated extensively, and haven't convinced anybody. To feed this troll right now just encourages him. -- Bcrowell 5 July 2005 17:31 (UTC)
You are the troll. Personal attacks are against Wikipedia policy. Please try contributing (one time) some text that all can agree with. Please make an attempt. 69.209.239.161 5 July 2005 17:53 (UTC)