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Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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![]() | The contents of the Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) page were merged into Anti-Russian sentiment on 11 June 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
@ Willbb234: This article needs sourcing and it needs it bad. You don't want to ascribe crimes against humanity to a nation without intense sourcing. I also feel strongly about the importance of finding some neutral editors with established active accounts dating back before let's say ~2015 to establish that this is the basis of something encyclopedic. To be crystal clear I'm not implying this isn't a truthful article, I'm implying it's a fricken hot potato of a subject right now. Could you get an RfC going? Jasphetamine ( talk) 18:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Miniapolis: Hey -- terribly sorry to bother you, but I want to be extra sure GOCE is meant to fix... what I would describe as a barely sourced machine translated NPOV-violation about atrocities committed in the former Soviet bloc. If not, do I just blanket this thing in templates about its flaws? It's such dicey subject matter. Jasphetamine ( talk) 19:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
( â†) Well, I wish someone had commented on the GOCE's talk pages about the c/e request. We've declined the request for now; please feel free to relist it once it's rewritten, properly cited, stable and neutral. See the discussion at REQ Talk ( current version) as of my timestamp. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 20:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Should this become "Post Soviet nation" "post Soviet state" or something more specific? Not all regions of the USSR became republics in a strict sense of the world. Jasphetamine ( talk) 02:49, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Jasphetamine, Rosguill is this complete? The tag is still up, not sure if you were planning on continuing? Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 16:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The whole article cannot be accepted in the version it is today. It is bellow Wikipedia's standards. I suggest renaming it to either "Anti-Russian sentiment in Chechnya 1991-1994" or "De-Russificiation of Chechnya 1991-1994".
Just take the sources: we mostly have only Russian-government owned websites like RIA, Rossiyskaya Gazeta and Zvezda.ru, or Ozon.ru, an online retail company. Insufficient. What are some reliable (preferably English) sources that confirm the term ethnic cleansing? The whole article just seems to have taken over all the propaganda from the Russian Wikipedia article without checking or reviewing these claims and subjecting them to scrutiny. Unless the article is rewritten into a decent shape, it should be drastically altered.--
3E1I5S8B9RF7 (
talk)
15:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Reads better and I think the new page title is excellent but there's still just an overwhelming lack of citations. Would this subject be better served by finding an appropriate subject to merge it with? That'd allow for the subject matter to remain on Wikipedia but with a greatly reduced word count. Jasphetamine ( talk) 23:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing similar problems that other Wikipedians have already pointed out( @ Willbb234: @ Jasphetamine: ). I'm proposing this article for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and integrating what it contains of NPOV content into the Russophobia article. The contents of this article are already covered in at least two other separate articles, in the Minorities section of the Chechen republic of Ichkeria article, and under the North Caucasus section of the Russophobia article. This article does also not meet the Wikipedia criteria for NPOV, it relies almost exclusively on Russian state connected media outlets( RIA novosti, Izvestiya, Itar-tass etc.) Alfred Koch in the 2000s was at the forefront of Gazprom media's takeover of NTV(one of Russia's independently controlled media outlets at the time), he's also quoted in the article as an authority on the "ethnic cleansing of Russians from Chechnya". The emigration/cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo does not have it's own article yet it is covered in the demographics section of the Kosovo article, I am proposing a similar solution in this case. What are your thoughts fellow Wikipedians. Sextus Caedicius ( talk) 15:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)Sextus Caedicius
This whole article is very questionable with questionable sources (Russian media?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usar-Aeli ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Anti-Russian sentiment on 3 June 2020. The result of the discussion ([<permanent link, entered as " /info/en/?search=Anti_Russian_sentiment" (with underscored spaces and without brackets)> permanent link]) was Unanimous consensus to go through with the merger. |
I see that the outcome of the AfD was merger, however de facto it led to a deletion: compare the last version of this article [3] to Anti-Russian_sentiment#Within_Russia.
I'm conscious of the argument that that this article mostly relied on Russian-language sources, however we should not just dismiss them altogether. Some of the media that are unreliable now were quite good in the 90s and early aughts. Freedom House classified Russia as "partly free" back then [4] Some others are still okay ( Kommersant, Echo Moskvy).
In any case I believe that it should be possible to find less questionable sources. I'll try to do it and hopefully will raise it again. Pinging Sextus Caedicius as the closer. Alaexis ¿question? 07:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
The following books and articles describe the policies of the Chechen authorities towards non-Chechens in 1991-1994.
“ | Armed Chechens, infused with a "Kalashnikov culture," turned against non-Chechens, mainly Russians, who did not have kin or clientelist protections. One consequence of the policy of blockade and nonintervention was that the ethnic Slav (overwhelmingly Russian) minority were left unprotected. A decade-long process of Slav emigration was suddenly accelerated as about 90,000, about one-third of the total number living in Chechnya, were physically expelled or otherwise forced to leave in 1991-92, | †|
“ | Dzhokhar Dudaev, in contrast, pursued policies based on ethnic exclusion. He built his political career by mobilizing political and military support, pursuing radical nationalist policies, ... His policies had a highly negative effect on inter-ethnic relations in Chechnya, causing a mass exodus of Russians. A survey conducted by the All-Russia Public Opinion Research Center in 1991-92 found that 37 percent of the Russians in Chechnya wanted to leave, a larger percentage than in any other part of the fonner Soviet Union. According to the Federal Migration Service of Russia, more than 90,000 people left Chechnya in 1991-93.2 | †|
Alaexis ¿question? 10:32, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to bow out here.North8000 ( talk) 20:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
This article has severe issues. It largely relies on Russian sources to support it's view of "genocide" of the Russian speaking population of Chechnya. Looking through this it more or less constitues a WP:FRINGE theory. I will elaborate on this issue further when I have the chance. Ola Tønningsberg ( talk) 11:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
The legend of the genocide of Russians in Chechnya, which has become so entrenched on the Internet, does not really have sufficiently intelligible confirmation. Both Russians and non-Russians then had the same bad luck, believe me. Then people were killed in Moscow too. They threw old people and pensioners onto the streets. Gangs of Moscow were operating in the streets: Koptevskaya, Lyuberetskaya, various other gangs that robbed people, threw people out of their apartments ... I believe that most of the killed Russians happened after the start of the massive bombing of Grozny. This is simply proven historically.
About 20,000 Russians have left the region, but more than 300,000 still stay because they enjoy a higher standard of living than in the bleak Russian heartlands, because of intermarriage or because they were born there and have nowhere else to go.
Russian government accused Dudayev of persecuting the 150,000 Russians who live in Chechnya. President Boris N. Yeltsin’s chief of staff, Sergei A. Filatov, also alleged that Dudayev supporters beheaded three Chechens who had helped Russian police catch a band of hijackers in southern Russia and had displayed their severed heads in downtown Grozny. The Russian Interior Ministry produced two gruesome photographs of heads and headless corpses, which were broadcast repeatedly Monday on Russian state television. Journalists in Grozny, however, have turned up no evidence that any such beheading ever took place. The Moscow Times newspaper, in a sharply worded editorial published Tuesday, suggested that the Yeltsin government may be trying to prepare the Russian public for a military incursion.
Oleg Orlov, the head of the Memorial human rights centre’s North Caucasus programme told me that both he and Russia’s Human Rights Ombudsperson Sergey Kovalev had witnessed harassment of Chechnya’s Russian-speaking population. “We encountered lawless and outrageous situations,†Orlov told me. “Gangs of bandits were attacking Russian speakers, knowing that the authorities in the de facto independent Chechen Republic of Ichkeria wouldn’t touch them. We handed all the information we gathered to [then President] Yeltsin. But there was no need for it, because soon afterwards a war broke out. “
Accounts of the suffering of the Russian-language populace of Chechnya have been intentionally and at times grotesquely exaggerated by representatives of the Russian intelligence services. According to the former chariman of the FSK, Sergrei Stepashin: "During the three years of Dudayevs rule 350,000 were diven out of the republic [this is 100,000 more than Sergei Shakhrai's estimate presented to the Constituional Court] and 45,000 persons were killed [a staggering exaggeration - the true figure might be fewer than 100]".
"Deeply tendentious and marred by hysterical rhetoric and completely unsubstantiated claims, especially as regards the fate of ethnic Russians in Chechnya under Dudayev."
Ola Tønningsberg ( talk) 14:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)"It was all a typical lie, a wonderful fairy tale of the Kremlin in order to feed the Chechen war , that Russians were killed and expelled there... I was there! And Dzhokhar Dudayev had a Russian right hand and a minister in his government, and the first civilians in Chechnya to die were Russian old people in five-story buildings, those who did not agree to the Chechens’ proposal to evacuate to their villages, they took care of this too, so that the old people remained alive. It was on them that Russia dropped bombs, and they were the first to burn in their houses, so I have never heard a more shameless lie than “Russian genocide in Chechnya,†even if we take into account “Goebbels’ propaganda.â€"
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | It is requested that an image or photograph of Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
Wikipedians in Russia may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
![]() | The contents of the Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) page were merged into Anti-Russian sentiment on 11 June 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
@ Willbb234: This article needs sourcing and it needs it bad. You don't want to ascribe crimes against humanity to a nation without intense sourcing. I also feel strongly about the importance of finding some neutral editors with established active accounts dating back before let's say ~2015 to establish that this is the basis of something encyclopedic. To be crystal clear I'm not implying this isn't a truthful article, I'm implying it's a fricken hot potato of a subject right now. Could you get an RfC going? Jasphetamine ( talk) 18:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@ Miniapolis: Hey -- terribly sorry to bother you, but I want to be extra sure GOCE is meant to fix... what I would describe as a barely sourced machine translated NPOV-violation about atrocities committed in the former Soviet bloc. If not, do I just blanket this thing in templates about its flaws? It's such dicey subject matter. Jasphetamine ( talk) 19:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
( â†) Well, I wish someone had commented on the GOCE's talk pages about the c/e request. We've declined the request for now; please feel free to relist it once it's rewritten, properly cited, stable and neutral. See the discussion at REQ Talk ( current version) as of my timestamp. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 20:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)
Should this become "Post Soviet nation" "post Soviet state" or something more specific? Not all regions of the USSR became republics in a strict sense of the world. Jasphetamine ( talk) 02:49, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Jasphetamine, Rosguill is this complete? The tag is still up, not sure if you were planning on continuing? Willbb234 Talk (please {{ ping}} me in replies) 16:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
The whole article cannot be accepted in the version it is today. It is bellow Wikipedia's standards. I suggest renaming it to either "Anti-Russian sentiment in Chechnya 1991-1994" or "De-Russificiation of Chechnya 1991-1994".
Just take the sources: we mostly have only Russian-government owned websites like RIA, Rossiyskaya Gazeta and Zvezda.ru, or Ozon.ru, an online retail company. Insufficient. What are some reliable (preferably English) sources that confirm the term ethnic cleansing? The whole article just seems to have taken over all the propaganda from the Russian Wikipedia article without checking or reviewing these claims and subjecting them to scrutiny. Unless the article is rewritten into a decent shape, it should be drastically altered.--
3E1I5S8B9RF7 (
talk)
15:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
Reads better and I think the new page title is excellent but there's still just an overwhelming lack of citations. Would this subject be better served by finding an appropriate subject to merge it with? That'd allow for the subject matter to remain on Wikipedia but with a greatly reduced word count. Jasphetamine ( talk) 23:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing similar problems that other Wikipedians have already pointed out( @ Willbb234: @ Jasphetamine: ). I'm proposing this article for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and integrating what it contains of NPOV content into the Russophobia article. The contents of this article are already covered in at least two other separate articles, in the Minorities section of the Chechen republic of Ichkeria article, and under the North Caucasus section of the Russophobia article. This article does also not meet the Wikipedia criteria for NPOV, it relies almost exclusively on Russian state connected media outlets( RIA novosti, Izvestiya, Itar-tass etc.) Alfred Koch in the 2000s was at the forefront of Gazprom media's takeover of NTV(one of Russia's independently controlled media outlets at the time), he's also quoted in the article as an authority on the "ethnic cleansing of Russians from Chechnya". The emigration/cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo does not have it's own article yet it is covered in the demographics section of the Kosovo article, I am proposing a similar solution in this case. What are your thoughts fellow Wikipedians. Sextus Caedicius ( talk) 15:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)Sextus Caedicius
This whole article is very questionable with questionable sources (Russian media?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usar-Aeli ( talk • contribs) 17:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Anti-Russian sentiment on 3 June 2020. The result of the discussion ([<permanent link, entered as " /info/en/?search=Anti_Russian_sentiment" (with underscored spaces and without brackets)> permanent link]) was Unanimous consensus to go through with the merger. |
I see that the outcome of the AfD was merger, however de facto it led to a deletion: compare the last version of this article [3] to Anti-Russian_sentiment#Within_Russia.
I'm conscious of the argument that that this article mostly relied on Russian-language sources, however we should not just dismiss them altogether. Some of the media that are unreliable now were quite good in the 90s and early aughts. Freedom House classified Russia as "partly free" back then [4] Some others are still okay ( Kommersant, Echo Moskvy).
In any case I believe that it should be possible to find less questionable sources. I'll try to do it and hopefully will raise it again. Pinging Sextus Caedicius as the closer. Alaexis ¿question? 07:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
The following books and articles describe the policies of the Chechen authorities towards non-Chechens in 1991-1994.
“ | Armed Chechens, infused with a "Kalashnikov culture," turned against non-Chechens, mainly Russians, who did not have kin or clientelist protections. One consequence of the policy of blockade and nonintervention was that the ethnic Slav (overwhelmingly Russian) minority were left unprotected. A decade-long process of Slav emigration was suddenly accelerated as about 90,000, about one-third of the total number living in Chechnya, were physically expelled or otherwise forced to leave in 1991-92, | †|
“ | Dzhokhar Dudaev, in contrast, pursued policies based on ethnic exclusion. He built his political career by mobilizing political and military support, pursuing radical nationalist policies, ... His policies had a highly negative effect on inter-ethnic relations in Chechnya, causing a mass exodus of Russians. A survey conducted by the All-Russia Public Opinion Research Center in 1991-92 found that 37 percent of the Russians in Chechnya wanted to leave, a larger percentage than in any other part of the fonner Soviet Union. According to the Federal Migration Service of Russia, more than 90,000 people left Chechnya in 1991-93.2 | †|
Alaexis ¿question? 10:32, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to bow out here.North8000 ( talk) 20:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
This article has severe issues. It largely relies on Russian sources to support it's view of "genocide" of the Russian speaking population of Chechnya. Looking through this it more or less constitues a WP:FRINGE theory. I will elaborate on this issue further when I have the chance. Ola Tønningsberg ( talk) 11:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)
The legend of the genocide of Russians in Chechnya, which has become so entrenched on the Internet, does not really have sufficiently intelligible confirmation. Both Russians and non-Russians then had the same bad luck, believe me. Then people were killed in Moscow too. They threw old people and pensioners onto the streets. Gangs of Moscow were operating in the streets: Koptevskaya, Lyuberetskaya, various other gangs that robbed people, threw people out of their apartments ... I believe that most of the killed Russians happened after the start of the massive bombing of Grozny. This is simply proven historically.
About 20,000 Russians have left the region, but more than 300,000 still stay because they enjoy a higher standard of living than in the bleak Russian heartlands, because of intermarriage or because they were born there and have nowhere else to go.
Russian government accused Dudayev of persecuting the 150,000 Russians who live in Chechnya. President Boris N. Yeltsin’s chief of staff, Sergei A. Filatov, also alleged that Dudayev supporters beheaded three Chechens who had helped Russian police catch a band of hijackers in southern Russia and had displayed their severed heads in downtown Grozny. The Russian Interior Ministry produced two gruesome photographs of heads and headless corpses, which were broadcast repeatedly Monday on Russian state television. Journalists in Grozny, however, have turned up no evidence that any such beheading ever took place. The Moscow Times newspaper, in a sharply worded editorial published Tuesday, suggested that the Yeltsin government may be trying to prepare the Russian public for a military incursion.
Oleg Orlov, the head of the Memorial human rights centre’s North Caucasus programme told me that both he and Russia’s Human Rights Ombudsperson Sergey Kovalev had witnessed harassment of Chechnya’s Russian-speaking population. “We encountered lawless and outrageous situations,†Orlov told me. “Gangs of bandits were attacking Russian speakers, knowing that the authorities in the de facto independent Chechen Republic of Ichkeria wouldn’t touch them. We handed all the information we gathered to [then President] Yeltsin. But there was no need for it, because soon afterwards a war broke out. “
Accounts of the suffering of the Russian-language populace of Chechnya have been intentionally and at times grotesquely exaggerated by representatives of the Russian intelligence services. According to the former chariman of the FSK, Sergrei Stepashin: "During the three years of Dudayevs rule 350,000 were diven out of the republic [this is 100,000 more than Sergei Shakhrai's estimate presented to the Constituional Court] and 45,000 persons were killed [a staggering exaggeration - the true figure might be fewer than 100]".
"Deeply tendentious and marred by hysterical rhetoric and completely unsubstantiated claims, especially as regards the fate of ethnic Russians in Chechnya under Dudayev."
Ola Tønningsberg ( talk) 14:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)"It was all a typical lie, a wonderful fairy tale of the Kremlin in order to feed the Chechen war , that Russians were killed and expelled there... I was there! And Dzhokhar Dudayev had a Russian right hand and a minister in his government, and the first civilians in Chechnya to die were Russian old people in five-story buildings, those who did not agree to the Chechens’ proposal to evacuate to their villages, they took care of this too, so that the old people remained alive. It was on them that Russia dropped bombs, and they were the first to burn in their houses, so I have never heard a more shameless lie than “Russian genocide in Chechnya,†even if we take into account “Goebbels’ propaganda.â€"