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The article was very badly written. therefore I have reorganized it. I hope you agree with the big ouline. Let us make comments to each of these sections separately:
Someone trying to find information on the subject would have read only some senseless fragments, and some written while in hot mind. It was (and still is) by far unprofessional. The issue is real, but must be addressed thoroughly, without any exageration, without bias, without ommisions, and as informative as possible. The article must address each sub-issue fairly. Sometimes discrimination was based not, or not only on ethnical basis, and this must be stated. Sometimes on hot mind some authors approximate incorrectly. For example, if in some instance 10,000 people were killed - this is a tragedy. It wouldn't be a revenge, a redemption, or any use to state 20,000. The crimes are not diminished if one writes 10,000. On the contrary, exagerated numbers suggest to an outsider that the issue is fictious. The worst denigration to those who suffered and died is when people tend to dismiss an issue b/c someone has exagerated some numbers. Exageration is as big an offence as denial. It is like spitting on inocent men's graves. If you find somewhere exageration of facts imputed to Romanians, be sure the truth will always come true, this is why people value it. One can always fool one man; one can fool everyone once; but noone can not fool everyone everytime. I would also like to point out that many areas of anti-Romanian discrimination are not adressed at all! This article needs a lot of contribution, documentation, images, links. Please help!
I think this article should, in its current form, be deleted. It's a load of crap, entirely unreferenced, totally POV, and the entire thing was contributed by an anonymous contributor who has displayed vandalistic tendencies on articles relating to Romania, Moldova, and Russia. --
Node 06:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC) The article still needs more cleaning up, but so far it is starting to look much better already.
I agree that Mr. Mystery-man has created an article without referencing it and yes he did revert the content of the “Moldovan” article.
However, we should also take note that Node Ue is NOT PERFECT either and is an ardent anti-Romanian himself. Node you should not be the one to point out others’ shortcomings since you do not have exactly a stellar history either. You are the sysop of a very controversial wiki called the Молдовенякэ/Moldovan wikipedia( a language which does not exist). By the way I still reserve the right to call new elections for another sysop at any time since we long passed the 45 day period. Also Node has affirmed his hatred or at least dislike of Romanians on a number of times. The reason for this remains a mystery to us. Is it because he descends from Moldovan Russofiles? Is it because he is a communist? Is it because his Jewish ancestors were persecuted by the Iron Guard? Is it because he is a homosexual and he knows that Romanian law on homosexuals is not exactly the most tolerant? Maybe he had a Romanian boyfriend once who broke his heart. Who knows? (Mihaitza)
In any case, Node, I would like to point out that whatever your reason for your loathing, maybe you should hate a little less. Maybe, before calling something a piece of crap, you should pause a little bit and consider the fact that maybe our anonymous friend might be a newbie that does not know precisely how Wikipedia works.
Going back to the article. Yes it needs changing. No it does not necessarily have to be deleted. I know of something that should be deleted though. It’s the Moldovan Wikipedia ;) Mihaitza 05:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
G., you seem to be very inflexible on the issue. I hope its not because you are a Russofile and you don't like the refferences made to Russia and Soviets in the article.
As far as my comments are concerned, I did not insult anyone. Tell me where did I ever call Node a "faggot", "fag", "homo"? Node is really a homosexual. Thats not an insult. Its a fact. It says so in his profile(unless its a prank that someone made).
Going back to "Anti-Romanianism", there is an anti-Polinism article, right? So why should there be no "anti-Romanianism"? A Google search will show more then 3000 hits for "Romanofobia"/"Rumanofobia"/"Roumanofobia", "anti-Romanianism"/"anti-Rumanianism"/"anti-Roumanianism", "anti-Rumanian"/"anti-Roumanian"/"anti-Romanian", anti-Moldovan(which is almost the same thing, etc. etc... Of course the o/u/ou variation obviously means the same thing. Mihaitza 13:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This article is a "load of crap". You know what's a "load of crap"? The maldavianiasko wikipedia:) I am sorry to have been absent for so long. Allow me to propose the "maldavanian" wiki for a VfD.
PS: Mihaitza nu exista roumanofobie, ptr ca cuvantul este in romana. oricum sunt cam 2000-3000 de "hituri". Also Mihaitza there is no law against homos in Ro. The law alows for gay sex but does not allow for gay unions. Domnu Goie 17:52, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This Article should NOT be deleted but maintained. Here it is written about one of the most less known problem outside Romania, the tragedy of the Romanian population in the occupied teritories in the last 9 centuries. The writer of the article may come also with demographical data for example to sustain the discrimination of Romanians in Bukovina and Basarabia by the Russians/Soviets, hungarians and Austrians. In Transylvania there were named the judiciary sistem and the Uniom Trium Nationum political alliance between the 2 minoritary hungarians populations and the german one against the Romanian population who formed the vast majority. Maybe quoting from the laws of the time would help the people understanding the article isn't subjective but only insufficient sustained by given data.
And about the homosexuality of one of the controllers. 1)The sexual orientation is first a personal matter and it constitutes no reason for criticism. 2)The fight should consist on Ideas and principals and not on irrelevant personal attacks. 3) The Law in Romania has changed for several years from now. Homosexuality is no longer punished. The discriminatory law articles have been removed, because of the pressure of integrating EU and because the Police and Secret Services have better other things to do regarding public money spent on them.(Andrew)
I'd like that you point out the problems you think the article has now. If you don't, I'll remove the tags. bogdan | Talk 19:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the topic is worthy of an article and this article may actually evolve with time into something encyclopedic. But two things for now:
Thanks, -- Irpen 21:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I certainly think that sourses have to be found asap. In that respect I am in total agreement with Irpen.
On the other hand, I don't think this includes personal research. There really is a term called anti-romanianism. Domnu Goie 23:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
yeah, in essence, abakharev kinna said it. For instance, the part with hungary persecuting romanians since 1001( which although it is not mentioned exactly like that, it is pretty much what it implies). Now that, is pure nationalist propaganda. That is certainly going to fall under the "opinions/not facts". I really don't think the Hungarians in the 1000s, 1100s and even 1600s thought "lets persecute those damn Romanians". Hungarian villagers were persecuted as well. It wasn't really about nationality back then, rather about nobility vs. the rest.
Hungarians under the Horthy government in 1940 was a total different thing. That was anti-Romanianism. I think there are 100s of books on that topic. About Stalinist crimes against the Romanians of North Bukovina, I have persoanlly read himself right here on Wikipedia. Same thing goes for Stalinist crimes after 1944 and Transnistrian policy towards the Romanians after 1989. In any case I think we can do a better job with the sourses.
PS: one more thing. Under the current form "Anti-Romanian discrimination" this article will be read by nobody. compare this with Antipolonism. Most people that go on wikipedia and search for such an article will not find it. Moreover, if one does not type the actual words exactly and with capitalized letters, one will not reach the article. So I propose that we do something about that. Domnu Goie 22:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. It’s ridiculous to have “Anti-Romanian discrimination”. For other anti-s we don’t have the word “discrimination” after them. Why does the Romanian case have to be different? Does Anti-Polonism exist in the Webster’s dictionary? I doubt it but it was fine to have it here, right? Same for Anti-Slavism.
Now going back to the question of the word “Anti-Romanianism” existing in the English language, I would like to remind everyone that there is no academy of English language like there is a Frech or Spanish or Romanian academy of those languages respectively. The English langauge is not controlled or regulated by anyone which is why it is the language with the most number of words. I think every day, a new word enters the language which puts the total at something like 500.000- 1.500.000 words. If you do not believe me, please consult other resourses like what wikipedia has to say on the English Language. Thus I would really like to propose that we change this long title to something that people could type and find resourses for. I noticed that for Anti-Polonism, any of the following combinations work: “antipolinism”, “antipolonism”, “anti-Polonism”, “anti-Poland”, “anti-poland”, “antipolon”, “Polonophobia”, “polonophobia”, etc. etc. Mihaitza 00:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Irpen I understand what you are saying, but even if anti-romanianism is very rarely seen in the English language, it still means it is used in that language. Mihaitza 13:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
you may be right. a redirect may be a good solution. as long as people can put "anti-romanianism" in the search-engine and still get to this article, I don't think it matters how it will be called. With that out of the way, we should concentrate on bringing more sourses as well as making the article more NPOV. Mihaitza 18:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I just want to elaborate here why I deleted section "Yugoslavia and modern Serbia and Montenegro". If somebody want to write about "persecuted Romanians in Timok Valley", he should to prove two things:
Both claims cannnot be proved or supported. People who live in Timok Valley do not consider themselves Romanians, but consider themselves to be a distinct Vlach nation different from both, Romanians and Serbs. Also, they do not consider that they are persecuted. They are fluent in both languages, Serbian and Vlach, and they never asked for separate schools or institutions where they would use their language, since they use Serbian language in their everyday life (They use Vlach language mainly in home). But, as I said, they never asked for official use of their language in schools or in local administration. If they asked for it, Serbia would provide that for them, but they never asked. The one cannot claim that rights of people are abused if they never asked for these rights. User:PANONIAN
The further discussion about this can be seen here: Talk:Romanians of Serbia
Wow, as a foreigner who lived in Russia, this is a poor argument with many pathetic grammatical and spelling mistakes. This article is purely based on a biased view of Moldovians. Rubbish!
I see the factual accuracy dispute tag. Ghirlandajo, I'm waiting... Please dispute some facts! bogdan 17:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Funny. Looks like everybody in the neighborhood is/was against Romanians. I must say this article was written from a biased perpective. Nasty Russians, nasty Hungarians, nasty Saxonians, etc. Some examples:
Example 1: "the Romanians were not allowed to reside within the walls of some Transylvanian cities such as Sibiu or Braşov"
That's correct. In medieval times it was a privilege to live in cities. People there were granted special rights from the king, and peasants or shepherds were not allowed to enter the city, except for market days. Eg. in Brasov the gate where they could enter the city was called the "Bulgarian Gate". Vallachian (as today's Romanians were called), Bulgarian and Hungarian peasants lived in their own villages, under the supervision of their landlords (or in free communities, like the Székelys). Quite usual in medieval Europe.
Example 2: "ruthlessly suppressed by the Hungarian nobles who would execute peasant leaders and their admirers by breaking on the wheel. This method of execution consisted of the victim being laid on the ground whilst the executioner would break the prisoner’s bones with a spiked wheel. Other peasants would be forced to watch the executions in order to frighten them from attempting future uprisings" Again, these nasty Hungarian nobles. Do you remember what Vlad Tepes did to his peasants? :-)
Example 3: "The Romanian population of Transylvania was never directly represented in the Transylvanian Diet which consisted of German, Hungarian and Szeckler nobles (the Unio Trium Nationum), despite the fact that the three groups were minorities, whilst the Romanians comprised an overwhelming majority of the Transylvanian population."
a) There is no evidence about the Vlach People being in majority in Transylvania in the medieval period, because nobody was interested in ethnic issues.
b) Representation in the Diet: Similarly to the previous examples, try to imagine yourself in the medieval times. In those days, ethnic issues were not significant, people were either nobles or peasants. Only those social (not ethnic) groups were represented in the Parliament that had legal privileges from the king. (Remember, in the time of the French revolution only nobles and church leaders were represented in the French Parliament.)
In Transylvania, three groups had royal privileges: the nobles, the Székely fighters and the Saxonian cities. -- KIDB 12:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
This article contains lots of misbeliefs, scientifically unproven statements. There are also proven facts in it. I think, this set of information is valuable because the writers have collected, and are collecting the popular myths fuelling Romanian xenophobia. The article was interesting for me to read, because these stories are not commonly known by Hungarians. This also helps to understand the way of thinking of another Nation. I would like to stress: I am not saying that everithing in the article is false! I also don't think that there are no similar myths amongst Hungarians or others.
I suggest that most of the collected stuff is reorganised and included in a new article called eg. Popular myths amongst Romanians or Beliefs fuelling Romanian xenophobia.
To help in this work, I have uploaded two photos on the frescos in the Orthodox Romanian Cathedral in Targu Mures (built in the 1920s), depicting people dressed as medieval noble Hungarians torchuring poor people dressed Romanian peasants...-- KIDB 11:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I am from Poland. My view is this:
The evidence of direct anti-Romanian actions undertaken by the USSR in the 1920s is abundant. The convention of October 28, 1920, whereby the British Empire, France, Italy, and Japan recognized Romanian sovereignty in Bessarabia, was rejected as invalid by the USSR. Moscow even denied the validity of that part of the convention that stipulated that, upon Russian request, the Council of the League of Nations could be empowered to arbitrate the Russo-Romanian dispute over Bessarabia. In short, the Kremlin insisted that Romania was illegally occupying Bessarabia. And it was because of this intransigent attitude that the Soviet Union refused to make any concessions. Romania's attempts, in the early 1920s, to seek accommodation with the USSR on all issues except the Bessarabian fell on deaf ears as the Kremlin encouraged revolutionary activities by Bolshevik elements in Bessarabia. The establishment in October, 1924, of the Autonomous Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic as a focal point for eventual reincorporation of Bessarabia into the USSR indeed eliminated the possibility of peaceful resolution of Russo-Romanian differences.
The exact position of the USSR on these issues is unknown except for Moscow's unwillingness to make any concessions to Bucharest on Bessarabian issues. Recent tracts by Romanian historians have emphasized the support given by Romanian Communists to the "democratic forces" opposed to alteration of the status quo in Transylvania in 1938 and subsequent years. True as this may be, there has been no evidence presented in support of any fundamental change in Moscow's traditional anti-Romanian positions with respect to Bessarabia in 1938 and subsequent years.
Whether the Kremlin envisaged this entire scenario in August, 1940, is uncertain. But that this possible scenario was within the realm of Russia's long-range plans for Romania and Eastern Europe cannot be doubted. The Romanians were aware of Russian intentions throughout the interwar period, and the Hungarians were also conscious of the potential advantages to be derived from Russia's anti-Romanian attitudes in an eventual resolution of the Transylvanian question. And it is undeniable that the Romanians and the Hungarians remain aware of Russia's interests in Transylvania forty years after the Vienna Diktat.
Romanian ethnic soldiers from Moldova were sent in Afghanistan by the Soviet Union 1980-1989. -- 203.188.144.61 08:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Protected from anon edits against revert war by a flock of anon accounts. mikka (t) 23:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Nobody seems to substanciate their claims so I have erased the tags. Unless people come with clear objections then I see no point for them. There was an original research tag but the article has sources, there was a factual account tag but nobody bothered to explain what was not factual and there was a totally neutrality tag but I think everyone would agree that some parts of any article are more neutral then others. Constantzeanu 01:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tags, they are explained at talk and edit summaries and they are not addressed. The article is a mess. Did you actually takw a look? -- Irpen 04:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Many sources have been brought in since the tags appeared and since the edit summaries were made. So the situation now is not like it was...say...a few months ago. I would like whoever thinks that the tags should stay, to make a newer version or a newer list of problems which we can adress so we can imrpove the article and remove the tags. If no such problems are presented here on the talk page, then I guess no problems exist and the tags can go. Don't just say that the tags should stay without showing why. Constantzeanu 05:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The following info is not supported by any citation:
As far as I know (and confirmation can be easily found) there are Romanian-language scools in the regions with substational fraction of Romanian population, where Romanian is learned as primary language. -- AndriyK 14:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Please elaborate the meaning of this statement. There are people considering themselves as Moldovans. (They do not consider themselves as Romanians.) What should a Romanian-freandly state do? Forbid them to call themselves "Moldovans"? But this would mean an anti-Moldovan discrimination, which is not acceptable in a democratic state.-- AndriyK 14:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Dc76, please do not mix things up here. Soviet practices aside (and discussing the Soviet practicing is a valid point) your "This practice continues after 1989-1991" is a false statetemnt, at least as far as Ukraine is conserned. There is not a single case in any paperwork, such as job application, passport, birth certificate, etc., where anyone in Ukraine is required to state his/her ethnicity. The former Soviet "nationality" (meaning ethnicity) field is eliminated from Ukrainian passports and any other ID documents. In this climate, people are asked during census what their ethnicity is. Some Ukrainian citizens choose to answer Romanian, while others choose to answer Moldovan. There is no discrimination in this whatsoever!
"Moldavian/Romanian community has repeatedly and constantly required not to force people designate themselves as M or R." This is exactly what is happening in Ukraine. No one is forcing anyone. People are free to designate themselves as they wish. Moreover, they do not have to designate themselves anything if this is what they wish as one could leave the field blank in the census form, as well as leave any other field blank or even refuse to answer any census questions.
Nevertheles, some complain that the Ukrainian government publishing the census results in accordance with people's answers is some sort of anti-Romanianism. It is hard for me to understand what these people want. I guess they want the Ukrainian government to falsify the data and substitute the answers given by people by different asnwers. Whatever those who complain want, it should be clear what they complain about, that is the very existence of a separate category for Moldovans in Ukraine. -- Irpen 21:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
As you can see in that form, after people write in their "ethicity", there are codes, in order to count (this is absolutely logical). So, when there are codes both for Romanian and for Moldovan, people get confused. It is like asking someone to choose between German and Bavarian. Yes, you observed correctly, the very existence of a separate category for Moldovans in Ukraine is perseaved by Romanian community as a form of discrimination against it. If you want to use both terms, than it would be fair to allow people to use both designation, i.e. the total number of answers can be more than 100%. But you see, the question in the census is not for curiousity, it has political implications.
Most nations go around this problem in a very simple and inteligent way. In some countries, e.g. USA, France, it is illegal to ask "ethnicity". One can ask "native language", one can ask "religion" (although in many countries the latter is also illegial). It is not illegial to poll people on this issues, but it is illegal to census on them. (Personnally) I believe that if not in the next, than after the next census in Ukraine, people will talk about "native language", and not "ethnicity" any more. BTW, those with Romanian as native language in Ukraine are fewer than those "ethnically" R+M.
You see, the community is roughly 20% of the oblast, hence it would have rights under the European convension for minorities, such as education at all levels in native language, and writing the names of all settlements in both languages. But if it is split, than the rights can be refused.
Romanians did give such rights to the German community even in places where they are 1%, and the result is excellent relations. Why is this not possible between Ukrainians and Romanians in Ukraine? Of course, many local bosses are still former Soviet appartchiks, but do you think it will change with a younger generation? If you were given to be Governor of the oblast for 24 hours, and could decide, will you want to make both languages usable, in the sence of street names, university in Romanian, even encourage people to learn and freely speak both languages? You see, if you would feel like doing so, than even if there would be 99% Romanians in the oblast, noone would ever question Ukrainian sovernty over it. Like Sweeds and Finns do it, and there is no problem, even if historically a region belonged to the other country. It does not matter, people enjoy the same rights, in all aspects, and they are happy with their neighbors. Are you happy with me as your neighbor?: Dc76
ROMANIANS IN UKRAINE
Since nobody provided any referencies concerning the Anti-Romanian discrimination in Ukraine, I changed the text according to the available sources. Still, I lived the tag {{dubious}} so far, to bring the attention of Romanian editoprs to the issue. If you disagree and can support you agreement by relyable sources, you I wellcome to discuss. I hope we can work together to find a muturally acceptable formulation.-- AndriyK 10:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Someone removed this, so I've added it back. The whole article needs reading over by a non-Romanian. Stuff like:
Isn't even vaguely neutral. Let alone sourced. I shall add the verify tag too. - FrancisTyers 19:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Could a linguist give me the linguistic criteria which determine if a particular language is more "primitive" than another. - FrancisTyers 20:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Recent revert by Constantzeanu seems like a totally bad faith edit wich restored a version which was even formatted poorly. Additionally, that version had received some copyediting, comments, formatting, etc. by me only to see it undone by a quick-fix. If Constantzeanu has a thing or two to say about this article, he should not use the fast-hand fixes like quick reverts to the older POV poorly formatted versions. It now took me amother good chunk of time to go over this mess. If people insist on my correction and comments being wrong, they should work through them, rather than quick revert. Please respect other people's work. - Irpen 23:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I want the person who tried to remove that section to explain his actions. Why is that section nonsense? Everything included there is supported by sources. It is not nonsense. -- Candide, or Optimism 09:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not world common practice. Not when you have such a huge minority. Romania, for instance, gives Hungarians opportunity to study at universal level in their own language. -- Candide, or Optimism 01:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that the Ukraine chapter of this article largely confuses two things by presenting the uniform minority policies of the Ukrainian state not directed against any nation in particular but rather towards ensuring the implementation of the Ukrainian national concept, as it is seen by the country's government, as an anti-Romanian discrimination. If you can find some valid and sourced objections to such policies of Ukraine, this is a legitimate topic to cover but to present it as anti-Romanian discrimination is plain incorrect. As an example, please consider the Romanian interwar policies. We rightfully describe them in the Rumanization article and even if anti-Ukrainian discrimination ever gets started, I would not move the information on Rumanization, the assimilationist policy of Romania directed towards minorities in general, as anti-Ukrainian discrimination. Such policies affected not just Ukrainians but also, Hungarians, Rusyns and I don't know who else.
Please understand that the policies of Ukraine that you try to describe in the article, similarly belong elsewhere. Therefore, my suggestion is for now to start from the History of the Romanians in Ukraine as well as Romanians of Chernivtsi Oblast (should they be merged btw?). After gaining some consensus on how to present these issues in "Romanians in Ukraine" article(s), we can try to figure out what of this (if anything) belongs to the discrimination article and in what form. How would this sound? -- Irpen 21:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This would be very grave if it could be proven to be true: " In the orphanage of Tighina, Romanian children were beaten by Transnistrian and Russian troops and forced to sleep in the streets for a few months "
As it stands now, it is unreferenced. Questions: When was this (date)? How many children? For how many months did they lie in the street? Any reliable sources? Photos? The OSCE is quoted as having been involved. As an international organization they write a report of all involvement. Where is the papertrail of this? As it stands now, the sentence smells of urban myth. Similar to Saddam's troops
throwing newborns out of their incubators when invading Kuwait in 1990.
Besides, beating orphans would certainly be outside the rules of engagements for the Russian contingent to the Transnistrian Joint Control Commission. (
ConsultantJoe 21:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC))
Tighina orphanage: I am afraid there is a translation problem. The reports say that "children returned from vacation". It is unthinkable that orphans in this country could go somewhere else on vacations, so I suppose it was so-called "internat", or schoolchildren hostel for schoolchildren from remote areas, a very common establishment since Soviet times. In this case the proper term would be " boarding school". Can anybody find any russian-language reference? mikka (t) 22:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The factual issue is: a boarding school for orphans in Tighina was closed because the children there were Romanians, not Russians or Ukrainians. This was done during when the children were away b/c of repairs, and they have nowhere to return. The number of children affected was about 50 (I might be slightly wrong, could be 30, or could be 90, but you get the idea). The agravating fact: Moldova is the poorest county in Europe, and it is very unlikely those children will find state or private funds for a new building. Consequently they will be very much afected, given their age.
I suggest, that instead of the sentance above to write something like the paragraph I've written above, but to reference it well. The sentance obviouly was written on hot mind. But on the same token, the issue must not be ignored.
Would all users who disagree with various aspects of the article please list specific grievances here so that they can be addressed. TSO1D 16:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the Macedonia section simply because the minority in question are Aromanians not Romanians. This article refers only to discrimination against ethnic Romanians, not including other Eastern Romance peoples ("Vlachs"), such as Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians, etc. Additionally, Macedonian is the only official language of the Republic of Macedonia. For that reason, it seems normal to me that passports are only ever published in the official language of the respective state (do other countries do this differently?). In my opinion, Macedonia has one of world's best minority rights legislation and protection. UPDATE: Apparently the source claims that Albanians already have this right, but Albanian, because it's spoken by more than 20% of the total population, has this right enshrined in law (because, under some interpretations, it is the second official language of the country). It is also declared as an official language after Macedonian (Article 7 of the Constitution). Other languages do not have this right, not because of any discrimination, but because they simply don't have the numbers to pass the threshold. Just because the 100 Italians that live in Oradea don't have the right to use their language in justice system (where the cutoff is 20%), or the 2000 Georgians who live in Spain (made up stats) don't have their language officially-recognised doesn't amount to discrimination. In any case, this is not Anti-Romanian discrimination. Ronline ✉ 08:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Please, no not add the sentence that the council only represented the Romanian population of the country. Among the members of the council, 101 deputies were self-declared Moldovan, 12 were Ukrianian, 8 were Russian, 7 were Bulgarians, etc. The ethnic composition of the council reflected that of the entire region. TSO1D 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Mikkalai refuses the normal conflict resolution process. While knowing this page is sensitive, he makes controversial edits without even letting a note on the talk page. I suggest we try to define a position here. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The killing of 700.000 people out of some 3.5 million is a genocide by any measure. It is also a democide and a politicide, but it was not exclusively politic, and its result is mainly ethnic today. The overwhelming majority of these people were Romanian/Moldovan and the region was subject at the same time to slavicization by immigration of Ukrainians and Russians, and to ethnic engineering that resulted in the created in the creation of the Moldovan nation. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe yes, because the Soviet anti-romanian discriminations have their roots in the refusal of the Soviet government to accept the decisions of the Chisinau Soviet. Therefore, they must be mentioned, to mark the continuity between Russian and Soviet policies. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The Soviet politicide sections claims 2.34 million Romanians were deported from Bessarabia and Bukovina, of which 700k died, but the numbers appear inflated and the references given are very shady.
First of all, according to the Bessarabia article "The two provinces had an area of 20,000 square miles (51,000 km²) and they were inhabited by about 3.75 million people, mostly Romanians.". It is hard to believe that 2.34 million of those were deported and over 75% of Moldova's population is still claiming Moldovan/Romanian ethicity today.
Second, during World War II Romania allied with Germany and took back Bessarabia and Bukovina for several years. Russians had invaded the two regions in July 1940 (after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) and held them until June 1941 when Romanians/Germans recovered them. They were under Romanian rule from 1941 until August 1944 when they were taken by the Russians again during Operation Iassy-Kishinev. Under these conditions I find it very hard to believe that "390,000 Romanians were deported of whom 51,000 were killed" between 1941-1945 as claimed here.
So if someone can provide more reliable references on the number of Romanians deported by the soviets from Bessarabia and Bukovina please do so.
What about discrimination against Romanian immigrants (including Romanian Romas) in Western Europe?
Rename the article Roumanian minorities and start from there. It does the discussion no good if all statements about these minorities come under the heading of an alleged hatred against them. The result is about as misleading as an article about the Jewish diaspora entitled "Antisemitism". And, it might perhaps be added, there IS antisemitism, for instance in Roumania; while there is no term as distinct to describe the situation of other minorities in Europe. Actually, to claim a "status of equal persecution" could be seen as a very right-wing concept within the Roumanian political framework itself. Attention, please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Klaus rabe ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Sorry, I thought that this was automatically done by the talk engine. Klaus rabe
Actually, as far as Transsylvania is concerned - it might be a good idea to consider that LATIN was the common denominator, as a language of political power, for everyone concerned, while the concept of Roumanian as a cultural factor did not even exist in a socially divided society where access to the Latin sphere of culture defined participation in regional power. Roumanian speakers were as invisible as their (poor) Hungarian or German counterparts. Note as well that Latin was the official language of state in the kingdom of Hungary right into the 19th century. In any case, the term minority would apply to Transsylvania as well, since the region formed an integral part of the kingdom of Hungary as a whole. ( Klaus rabe 14:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC))
Maybe it would be best to remember that there is a big difference between a formally sovereign state like Moldavia where a minority among a majority were able to rule based on a dominant power's influence, but where discrimination was political and not ethnic, and countries where a vernacular culture re-emerged through the ascent of 19th century nationalism and AS A REACTION TO THE SAME PHENOMENON LEADING TO THE REPLACEMENT OF LATIN by the newly-emerged Hungarian language in Hungary ... After all, it is the nationalist movements on all sides AND alphabetization, i.e. cultural modernization of non-urban or metropolitan areas which led and leads to clashes between ethnic groups: the concept of minorities could not appear as a political factor in a society deprived of literacy. Which is not, of course, an argument in favour of analphabetism ... but a reason to look very closely at these cultural conditions before transferring contemporary points of view to earlier epochs where the ethnic differences could sometimes much more easily be bridged than after the advent of education and emancipation of the underprivileged classes in very, very backward and yet rather peaceful societies. (
Klaus rabe 00:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC))
(I've restored the talk page and am placing my comment at the bottom. I first wrote this without noticing that there was a deleted talk page.)
The reference apparatus is a mess. Hand-entered footnotes like "[2]". Multiple references with the same number. This should adopt cite.php... if anyone can tell what references are for what statements. - Jmabel | Talk 23:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Trying to clean what I can of this, but: is
really an acceptable citation? (Before I got there, by the way, this was just a blind URL.) Looks to me like a propaganda sheet, not a newspaper. - Jmabel | Talk 23:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The section on Serbia is only tangenitally connected to reality. All the five sources are from the same "alternative" website, which has as its motto the following conspiracy-minded quote: In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. (George Orwell) Intrigued, I took a look at the English language version, which has as its top story that " Black hatemongering robbers murdered a 5-year-old white girl". In the corner, we are informed the website is "for people of European descent". Another story informs us that a video of David Duke is the most popular on Youtube. You should get the picture by now that this is a racist blog (yep, it is a blog), and by no means qualifies as a reputable source. This should justify the POV tag, and I shall be rectifying the section in the days to come. -- Еstavisti 06:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Vlachs call themself Vlachs before romanian nation started to exist, after the unification of Valachia nad Moldavia in one state and nation. So, they (Valachs in Serbia) didnt change there own nation. Someone said things about denationalization of Valachs in Serbia. So how he can explain that after 150 years of Valachian life in Serbia they still today speaking vallachian language in their homes? They are werry proud about their origin and great patriots of Serbia. You could ask any about their ethnicity, they will tells you that they are Vallachs of Serbia, and they dont have anything with state of Romania or romanian people exept similar ethnic origin from the old times, like Serbs with Poles or Czechs anyway... -- Boris Godunov ( talk) 02:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I found an 1952 interesting article in New York Times (reprinted from "The Party Worker", the official newspaper of the Serbian Communist Party) which names the Vlachs "savages" and describes some very unlikely customs:
Murder! Necrophilia! Cannibalism! Drunken orgies for teenagers!
Those Vlachs are fun people, eh? :-) bogdan 12:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
despite the similarity in name, the Roma are no more closely related to the Romanians than they are to the other peoples of Europe.
I think this comment, or explanation, is a bit unnecessary. It sounds more like an excuse than an explanation. It is also POV. Lastly, I'm not so sure that comment applies so well to Muntenians. -- Thus Spake Anittas 20:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no connection, the 2 romanian states are documented some 3-400 years before the arrival (and sadly prompt enslavement) of the first roma emigrants in their eastern migration. Regardless, it's not really that relevant. Well both groups have been discriminated against, roma probably even more then romanians (Hitler genocide and all that). -- Helixdq 19:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
As always, a few incompentent Romanian editors come here to write out of their memory on controversial topics such as this one without using sources. Because of their incompetence, others now want to delete the article. I say that all unsourced material is to be removed and only sourced statements and information should be kept. -- Thus Spake Anittas 17:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Where the mayor or Rome himself made some anti-Romanian declarations? Somebody whould include these recent news —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nergaal ( talk • contribs) 08:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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The article was very badly written. therefore I have reorganized it. I hope you agree with the big ouline. Let us make comments to each of these sections separately:
Someone trying to find information on the subject would have read only some senseless fragments, and some written while in hot mind. It was (and still is) by far unprofessional. The issue is real, but must be addressed thoroughly, without any exageration, without bias, without ommisions, and as informative as possible. The article must address each sub-issue fairly. Sometimes discrimination was based not, or not only on ethnical basis, and this must be stated. Sometimes on hot mind some authors approximate incorrectly. For example, if in some instance 10,000 people were killed - this is a tragedy. It wouldn't be a revenge, a redemption, or any use to state 20,000. The crimes are not diminished if one writes 10,000. On the contrary, exagerated numbers suggest to an outsider that the issue is fictious. The worst denigration to those who suffered and died is when people tend to dismiss an issue b/c someone has exagerated some numbers. Exageration is as big an offence as denial. It is like spitting on inocent men's graves. If you find somewhere exageration of facts imputed to Romanians, be sure the truth will always come true, this is why people value it. One can always fool one man; one can fool everyone once; but noone can not fool everyone everytime. I would also like to point out that many areas of anti-Romanian discrimination are not adressed at all! This article needs a lot of contribution, documentation, images, links. Please help!
I think this article should, in its current form, be deleted. It's a load of crap, entirely unreferenced, totally POV, and the entire thing was contributed by an anonymous contributor who has displayed vandalistic tendencies on articles relating to Romania, Moldova, and Russia. --
Node 06:21, 13 September 2005 (UTC) The article still needs more cleaning up, but so far it is starting to look much better already.
I agree that Mr. Mystery-man has created an article without referencing it and yes he did revert the content of the “Moldovan” article.
However, we should also take note that Node Ue is NOT PERFECT either and is an ardent anti-Romanian himself. Node you should not be the one to point out others’ shortcomings since you do not have exactly a stellar history either. You are the sysop of a very controversial wiki called the Молдовенякэ/Moldovan wikipedia( a language which does not exist). By the way I still reserve the right to call new elections for another sysop at any time since we long passed the 45 day period. Also Node has affirmed his hatred or at least dislike of Romanians on a number of times. The reason for this remains a mystery to us. Is it because he descends from Moldovan Russofiles? Is it because he is a communist? Is it because his Jewish ancestors were persecuted by the Iron Guard? Is it because he is a homosexual and he knows that Romanian law on homosexuals is not exactly the most tolerant? Maybe he had a Romanian boyfriend once who broke his heart. Who knows? (Mihaitza)
In any case, Node, I would like to point out that whatever your reason for your loathing, maybe you should hate a little less. Maybe, before calling something a piece of crap, you should pause a little bit and consider the fact that maybe our anonymous friend might be a newbie that does not know precisely how Wikipedia works.
Going back to the article. Yes it needs changing. No it does not necessarily have to be deleted. I know of something that should be deleted though. It’s the Moldovan Wikipedia ;) Mihaitza 05:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
G., you seem to be very inflexible on the issue. I hope its not because you are a Russofile and you don't like the refferences made to Russia and Soviets in the article.
As far as my comments are concerned, I did not insult anyone. Tell me where did I ever call Node a "faggot", "fag", "homo"? Node is really a homosexual. Thats not an insult. Its a fact. It says so in his profile(unless its a prank that someone made).
Going back to "Anti-Romanianism", there is an anti-Polinism article, right? So why should there be no "anti-Romanianism"? A Google search will show more then 3000 hits for "Romanofobia"/"Rumanofobia"/"Roumanofobia", "anti-Romanianism"/"anti-Rumanianism"/"anti-Roumanianism", "anti-Rumanian"/"anti-Roumanian"/"anti-Romanian", anti-Moldovan(which is almost the same thing, etc. etc... Of course the o/u/ou variation obviously means the same thing. Mihaitza 13:53, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This article is a "load of crap". You know what's a "load of crap"? The maldavianiasko wikipedia:) I am sorry to have been absent for so long. Allow me to propose the "maldavanian" wiki for a VfD.
PS: Mihaitza nu exista roumanofobie, ptr ca cuvantul este in romana. oricum sunt cam 2000-3000 de "hituri". Also Mihaitza there is no law against homos in Ro. The law alows for gay sex but does not allow for gay unions. Domnu Goie 17:52, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
This Article should NOT be deleted but maintained. Here it is written about one of the most less known problem outside Romania, the tragedy of the Romanian population in the occupied teritories in the last 9 centuries. The writer of the article may come also with demographical data for example to sustain the discrimination of Romanians in Bukovina and Basarabia by the Russians/Soviets, hungarians and Austrians. In Transylvania there were named the judiciary sistem and the Uniom Trium Nationum political alliance between the 2 minoritary hungarians populations and the german one against the Romanian population who formed the vast majority. Maybe quoting from the laws of the time would help the people understanding the article isn't subjective but only insufficient sustained by given data.
And about the homosexuality of one of the controllers. 1)The sexual orientation is first a personal matter and it constitutes no reason for criticism. 2)The fight should consist on Ideas and principals and not on irrelevant personal attacks. 3) The Law in Romania has changed for several years from now. Homosexuality is no longer punished. The discriminatory law articles have been removed, because of the pressure of integrating EU and because the Police and Secret Services have better other things to do regarding public money spent on them.(Andrew)
I'd like that you point out the problems you think the article has now. If you don't, I'll remove the tags. bogdan | Talk 19:21, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the topic is worthy of an article and this article may actually evolve with time into something encyclopedic. But two things for now:
Thanks, -- Irpen 21:17, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I certainly think that sourses have to be found asap. In that respect I am in total agreement with Irpen.
On the other hand, I don't think this includes personal research. There really is a term called anti-romanianism. Domnu Goie 23:44, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
yeah, in essence, abakharev kinna said it. For instance, the part with hungary persecuting romanians since 1001( which although it is not mentioned exactly like that, it is pretty much what it implies). Now that, is pure nationalist propaganda. That is certainly going to fall under the "opinions/not facts". I really don't think the Hungarians in the 1000s, 1100s and even 1600s thought "lets persecute those damn Romanians". Hungarian villagers were persecuted as well. It wasn't really about nationality back then, rather about nobility vs. the rest.
Hungarians under the Horthy government in 1940 was a total different thing. That was anti-Romanianism. I think there are 100s of books on that topic. About Stalinist crimes against the Romanians of North Bukovina, I have persoanlly read himself right here on Wikipedia. Same thing goes for Stalinist crimes after 1944 and Transnistrian policy towards the Romanians after 1989. In any case I think we can do a better job with the sourses.
PS: one more thing. Under the current form "Anti-Romanian discrimination" this article will be read by nobody. compare this with Antipolonism. Most people that go on wikipedia and search for such an article will not find it. Moreover, if one does not type the actual words exactly and with capitalized letters, one will not reach the article. So I propose that we do something about that. Domnu Goie 22:25, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. It’s ridiculous to have “Anti-Romanian discrimination”. For other anti-s we don’t have the word “discrimination” after them. Why does the Romanian case have to be different? Does Anti-Polonism exist in the Webster’s dictionary? I doubt it but it was fine to have it here, right? Same for Anti-Slavism.
Now going back to the question of the word “Anti-Romanianism” existing in the English language, I would like to remind everyone that there is no academy of English language like there is a Frech or Spanish or Romanian academy of those languages respectively. The English langauge is not controlled or regulated by anyone which is why it is the language with the most number of words. I think every day, a new word enters the language which puts the total at something like 500.000- 1.500.000 words. If you do not believe me, please consult other resourses like what wikipedia has to say on the English Language. Thus I would really like to propose that we change this long title to something that people could type and find resourses for. I noticed that for Anti-Polonism, any of the following combinations work: “antipolinism”, “antipolonism”, “anti-Polonism”, “anti-Poland”, “anti-poland”, “antipolon”, “Polonophobia”, “polonophobia”, etc. etc. Mihaitza 00:58, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Irpen I understand what you are saying, but even if anti-romanianism is very rarely seen in the English language, it still means it is used in that language. Mihaitza 13:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
you may be right. a redirect may be a good solution. as long as people can put "anti-romanianism" in the search-engine and still get to this article, I don't think it matters how it will be called. With that out of the way, we should concentrate on bringing more sourses as well as making the article more NPOV. Mihaitza 18:41, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I just want to elaborate here why I deleted section "Yugoslavia and modern Serbia and Montenegro". If somebody want to write about "persecuted Romanians in Timok Valley", he should to prove two things:
Both claims cannnot be proved or supported. People who live in Timok Valley do not consider themselves Romanians, but consider themselves to be a distinct Vlach nation different from both, Romanians and Serbs. Also, they do not consider that they are persecuted. They are fluent in both languages, Serbian and Vlach, and they never asked for separate schools or institutions where they would use their language, since they use Serbian language in their everyday life (They use Vlach language mainly in home). But, as I said, they never asked for official use of their language in schools or in local administration. If they asked for it, Serbia would provide that for them, but they never asked. The one cannot claim that rights of people are abused if they never asked for these rights. User:PANONIAN
The further discussion about this can be seen here: Talk:Romanians of Serbia
Wow, as a foreigner who lived in Russia, this is a poor argument with many pathetic grammatical and spelling mistakes. This article is purely based on a biased view of Moldovians. Rubbish!
I see the factual accuracy dispute tag. Ghirlandajo, I'm waiting... Please dispute some facts! bogdan 17:15, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
Funny. Looks like everybody in the neighborhood is/was against Romanians. I must say this article was written from a biased perpective. Nasty Russians, nasty Hungarians, nasty Saxonians, etc. Some examples:
Example 1: "the Romanians were not allowed to reside within the walls of some Transylvanian cities such as Sibiu or Braşov"
That's correct. In medieval times it was a privilege to live in cities. People there were granted special rights from the king, and peasants or shepherds were not allowed to enter the city, except for market days. Eg. in Brasov the gate where they could enter the city was called the "Bulgarian Gate". Vallachian (as today's Romanians were called), Bulgarian and Hungarian peasants lived in their own villages, under the supervision of their landlords (or in free communities, like the Székelys). Quite usual in medieval Europe.
Example 2: "ruthlessly suppressed by the Hungarian nobles who would execute peasant leaders and their admirers by breaking on the wheel. This method of execution consisted of the victim being laid on the ground whilst the executioner would break the prisoner’s bones with a spiked wheel. Other peasants would be forced to watch the executions in order to frighten them from attempting future uprisings" Again, these nasty Hungarian nobles. Do you remember what Vlad Tepes did to his peasants? :-)
Example 3: "The Romanian population of Transylvania was never directly represented in the Transylvanian Diet which consisted of German, Hungarian and Szeckler nobles (the Unio Trium Nationum), despite the fact that the three groups were minorities, whilst the Romanians comprised an overwhelming majority of the Transylvanian population."
a) There is no evidence about the Vlach People being in majority in Transylvania in the medieval period, because nobody was interested in ethnic issues.
b) Representation in the Diet: Similarly to the previous examples, try to imagine yourself in the medieval times. In those days, ethnic issues were not significant, people were either nobles or peasants. Only those social (not ethnic) groups were represented in the Parliament that had legal privileges from the king. (Remember, in the time of the French revolution only nobles and church leaders were represented in the French Parliament.)
In Transylvania, three groups had royal privileges: the nobles, the Székely fighters and the Saxonian cities. -- KIDB 12:41, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
This article contains lots of misbeliefs, scientifically unproven statements. There are also proven facts in it. I think, this set of information is valuable because the writers have collected, and are collecting the popular myths fuelling Romanian xenophobia. The article was interesting for me to read, because these stories are not commonly known by Hungarians. This also helps to understand the way of thinking of another Nation. I would like to stress: I am not saying that everithing in the article is false! I also don't think that there are no similar myths amongst Hungarians or others.
I suggest that most of the collected stuff is reorganised and included in a new article called eg. Popular myths amongst Romanians or Beliefs fuelling Romanian xenophobia.
To help in this work, I have uploaded two photos on the frescos in the Orthodox Romanian Cathedral in Targu Mures (built in the 1920s), depicting people dressed as medieval noble Hungarians torchuring poor people dressed Romanian peasants...-- KIDB 11:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
I am from Poland. My view is this:
The evidence of direct anti-Romanian actions undertaken by the USSR in the 1920s is abundant. The convention of October 28, 1920, whereby the British Empire, France, Italy, and Japan recognized Romanian sovereignty in Bessarabia, was rejected as invalid by the USSR. Moscow even denied the validity of that part of the convention that stipulated that, upon Russian request, the Council of the League of Nations could be empowered to arbitrate the Russo-Romanian dispute over Bessarabia. In short, the Kremlin insisted that Romania was illegally occupying Bessarabia. And it was because of this intransigent attitude that the Soviet Union refused to make any concessions. Romania's attempts, in the early 1920s, to seek accommodation with the USSR on all issues except the Bessarabian fell on deaf ears as the Kremlin encouraged revolutionary activities by Bolshevik elements in Bessarabia. The establishment in October, 1924, of the Autonomous Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic as a focal point for eventual reincorporation of Bessarabia into the USSR indeed eliminated the possibility of peaceful resolution of Russo-Romanian differences.
The exact position of the USSR on these issues is unknown except for Moscow's unwillingness to make any concessions to Bucharest on Bessarabian issues. Recent tracts by Romanian historians have emphasized the support given by Romanian Communists to the "democratic forces" opposed to alteration of the status quo in Transylvania in 1938 and subsequent years. True as this may be, there has been no evidence presented in support of any fundamental change in Moscow's traditional anti-Romanian positions with respect to Bessarabia in 1938 and subsequent years.
Whether the Kremlin envisaged this entire scenario in August, 1940, is uncertain. But that this possible scenario was within the realm of Russia's long-range plans for Romania and Eastern Europe cannot be doubted. The Romanians were aware of Russian intentions throughout the interwar period, and the Hungarians were also conscious of the potential advantages to be derived from Russia's anti-Romanian attitudes in an eventual resolution of the Transylvanian question. And it is undeniable that the Romanians and the Hungarians remain aware of Russia's interests in Transylvania forty years after the Vienna Diktat.
Romanian ethnic soldiers from Moldova were sent in Afghanistan by the Soviet Union 1980-1989. -- 203.188.144.61 08:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Protected from anon edits against revert war by a flock of anon accounts. mikka (t) 23:43, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Nobody seems to substanciate their claims so I have erased the tags. Unless people come with clear objections then I see no point for them. There was an original research tag but the article has sources, there was a factual account tag but nobody bothered to explain what was not factual and there was a totally neutrality tag but I think everyone would agree that some parts of any article are more neutral then others. Constantzeanu 01:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove the tags, they are explained at talk and edit summaries and they are not addressed. The article is a mess. Did you actually takw a look? -- Irpen 04:39, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Many sources have been brought in since the tags appeared and since the edit summaries were made. So the situation now is not like it was...say...a few months ago. I would like whoever thinks that the tags should stay, to make a newer version or a newer list of problems which we can adress so we can imrpove the article and remove the tags. If no such problems are presented here on the talk page, then I guess no problems exist and the tags can go. Don't just say that the tags should stay without showing why. Constantzeanu 05:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
The following info is not supported by any citation:
As far as I know (and confirmation can be easily found) there are Romanian-language scools in the regions with substational fraction of Romanian population, where Romanian is learned as primary language. -- AndriyK 14:12, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Please elaborate the meaning of this statement. There are people considering themselves as Moldovans. (They do not consider themselves as Romanians.) What should a Romanian-freandly state do? Forbid them to call themselves "Moldovans"? But this would mean an anti-Moldovan discrimination, which is not acceptable in a democratic state.-- AndriyK 14:20, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Dc76, please do not mix things up here. Soviet practices aside (and discussing the Soviet practicing is a valid point) your "This practice continues after 1989-1991" is a false statetemnt, at least as far as Ukraine is conserned. There is not a single case in any paperwork, such as job application, passport, birth certificate, etc., where anyone in Ukraine is required to state his/her ethnicity. The former Soviet "nationality" (meaning ethnicity) field is eliminated from Ukrainian passports and any other ID documents. In this climate, people are asked during census what their ethnicity is. Some Ukrainian citizens choose to answer Romanian, while others choose to answer Moldovan. There is no discrimination in this whatsoever!
"Moldavian/Romanian community has repeatedly and constantly required not to force people designate themselves as M or R." This is exactly what is happening in Ukraine. No one is forcing anyone. People are free to designate themselves as they wish. Moreover, they do not have to designate themselves anything if this is what they wish as one could leave the field blank in the census form, as well as leave any other field blank or even refuse to answer any census questions.
Nevertheles, some complain that the Ukrainian government publishing the census results in accordance with people's answers is some sort of anti-Romanianism. It is hard for me to understand what these people want. I guess they want the Ukrainian government to falsify the data and substitute the answers given by people by different asnwers. Whatever those who complain want, it should be clear what they complain about, that is the very existence of a separate category for Moldovans in Ukraine. -- Irpen 21:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
As you can see in that form, after people write in their "ethicity", there are codes, in order to count (this is absolutely logical). So, when there are codes both for Romanian and for Moldovan, people get confused. It is like asking someone to choose between German and Bavarian. Yes, you observed correctly, the very existence of a separate category for Moldovans in Ukraine is perseaved by Romanian community as a form of discrimination against it. If you want to use both terms, than it would be fair to allow people to use both designation, i.e. the total number of answers can be more than 100%. But you see, the question in the census is not for curiousity, it has political implications.
Most nations go around this problem in a very simple and inteligent way. In some countries, e.g. USA, France, it is illegal to ask "ethnicity". One can ask "native language", one can ask "religion" (although in many countries the latter is also illegial). It is not illegial to poll people on this issues, but it is illegal to census on them. (Personnally) I believe that if not in the next, than after the next census in Ukraine, people will talk about "native language", and not "ethnicity" any more. BTW, those with Romanian as native language in Ukraine are fewer than those "ethnically" R+M.
You see, the community is roughly 20% of the oblast, hence it would have rights under the European convension for minorities, such as education at all levels in native language, and writing the names of all settlements in both languages. But if it is split, than the rights can be refused.
Romanians did give such rights to the German community even in places where they are 1%, and the result is excellent relations. Why is this not possible between Ukrainians and Romanians in Ukraine? Of course, many local bosses are still former Soviet appartchiks, but do you think it will change with a younger generation? If you were given to be Governor of the oblast for 24 hours, and could decide, will you want to make both languages usable, in the sence of street names, university in Romanian, even encourage people to learn and freely speak both languages? You see, if you would feel like doing so, than even if there would be 99% Romanians in the oblast, noone would ever question Ukrainian sovernty over it. Like Sweeds and Finns do it, and there is no problem, even if historically a region belonged to the other country. It does not matter, people enjoy the same rights, in all aspects, and they are happy with their neighbors. Are you happy with me as your neighbor?: Dc76
ROMANIANS IN UKRAINE
Since nobody provided any referencies concerning the Anti-Romanian discrimination in Ukraine, I changed the text according to the available sources. Still, I lived the tag {{dubious}} so far, to bring the attention of Romanian editoprs to the issue. If you disagree and can support you agreement by relyable sources, you I wellcome to discuss. I hope we can work together to find a muturally acceptable formulation.-- AndriyK 10:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Someone removed this, so I've added it back. The whole article needs reading over by a non-Romanian. Stuff like:
Isn't even vaguely neutral. Let alone sourced. I shall add the verify tag too. - FrancisTyers 19:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Could a linguist give me the linguistic criteria which determine if a particular language is more "primitive" than another. - FrancisTyers 20:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Recent revert by Constantzeanu seems like a totally bad faith edit wich restored a version which was even formatted poorly. Additionally, that version had received some copyediting, comments, formatting, etc. by me only to see it undone by a quick-fix. If Constantzeanu has a thing or two to say about this article, he should not use the fast-hand fixes like quick reverts to the older POV poorly formatted versions. It now took me amother good chunk of time to go over this mess. If people insist on my correction and comments being wrong, they should work through them, rather than quick revert. Please respect other people's work. - Irpen 23:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I want the person who tried to remove that section to explain his actions. Why is that section nonsense? Everything included there is supported by sources. It is not nonsense. -- Candide, or Optimism 09:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
No, it's not world common practice. Not when you have such a huge minority. Romania, for instance, gives Hungarians opportunity to study at universal level in their own language. -- Candide, or Optimism 01:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that the Ukraine chapter of this article largely confuses two things by presenting the uniform minority policies of the Ukrainian state not directed against any nation in particular but rather towards ensuring the implementation of the Ukrainian national concept, as it is seen by the country's government, as an anti-Romanian discrimination. If you can find some valid and sourced objections to such policies of Ukraine, this is a legitimate topic to cover but to present it as anti-Romanian discrimination is plain incorrect. As an example, please consider the Romanian interwar policies. We rightfully describe them in the Rumanization article and even if anti-Ukrainian discrimination ever gets started, I would not move the information on Rumanization, the assimilationist policy of Romania directed towards minorities in general, as anti-Ukrainian discrimination. Such policies affected not just Ukrainians but also, Hungarians, Rusyns and I don't know who else.
Please understand that the policies of Ukraine that you try to describe in the article, similarly belong elsewhere. Therefore, my suggestion is for now to start from the History of the Romanians in Ukraine as well as Romanians of Chernivtsi Oblast (should they be merged btw?). After gaining some consensus on how to present these issues in "Romanians in Ukraine" article(s), we can try to figure out what of this (if anything) belongs to the discrimination article and in what form. How would this sound? -- Irpen 21:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
This would be very grave if it could be proven to be true: " In the orphanage of Tighina, Romanian children were beaten by Transnistrian and Russian troops and forced to sleep in the streets for a few months "
As it stands now, it is unreferenced. Questions: When was this (date)? How many children? For how many months did they lie in the street? Any reliable sources? Photos? The OSCE is quoted as having been involved. As an international organization they write a report of all involvement. Where is the papertrail of this? As it stands now, the sentence smells of urban myth. Similar to Saddam's troops
throwing newborns out of their incubators when invading Kuwait in 1990.
Besides, beating orphans would certainly be outside the rules of engagements for the Russian contingent to the Transnistrian Joint Control Commission. (
ConsultantJoe 21:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC))
Tighina orphanage: I am afraid there is a translation problem. The reports say that "children returned from vacation". It is unthinkable that orphans in this country could go somewhere else on vacations, so I suppose it was so-called "internat", or schoolchildren hostel for schoolchildren from remote areas, a very common establishment since Soviet times. In this case the proper term would be " boarding school". Can anybody find any russian-language reference? mikka (t) 22:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The factual issue is: a boarding school for orphans in Tighina was closed because the children there were Romanians, not Russians or Ukrainians. This was done during when the children were away b/c of repairs, and they have nowhere to return. The number of children affected was about 50 (I might be slightly wrong, could be 30, or could be 90, but you get the idea). The agravating fact: Moldova is the poorest county in Europe, and it is very unlikely those children will find state or private funds for a new building. Consequently they will be very much afected, given their age.
I suggest, that instead of the sentance above to write something like the paragraph I've written above, but to reference it well. The sentance obviouly was written on hot mind. But on the same token, the issue must not be ignored.
Would all users who disagree with various aspects of the article please list specific grievances here so that they can be addressed. TSO1D 16:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I reverted the Macedonia section simply because the minority in question are Aromanians not Romanians. This article refers only to discrimination against ethnic Romanians, not including other Eastern Romance peoples ("Vlachs"), such as Aromanians, Megleno-Romanians, etc. Additionally, Macedonian is the only official language of the Republic of Macedonia. For that reason, it seems normal to me that passports are only ever published in the official language of the respective state (do other countries do this differently?). In my opinion, Macedonia has one of world's best minority rights legislation and protection. UPDATE: Apparently the source claims that Albanians already have this right, but Albanian, because it's spoken by more than 20% of the total population, has this right enshrined in law (because, under some interpretations, it is the second official language of the country). It is also declared as an official language after Macedonian (Article 7 of the Constitution). Other languages do not have this right, not because of any discrimination, but because they simply don't have the numbers to pass the threshold. Just because the 100 Italians that live in Oradea don't have the right to use their language in justice system (where the cutoff is 20%), or the 2000 Georgians who live in Spain (made up stats) don't have their language officially-recognised doesn't amount to discrimination. In any case, this is not Anti-Romanian discrimination. Ronline ✉ 08:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Please, no not add the sentence that the council only represented the Romanian population of the country. Among the members of the council, 101 deputies were self-declared Moldovan, 12 were Ukrianian, 8 were Russian, 7 were Bulgarians, etc. The ethnic composition of the council reflected that of the entire region. TSO1D 20:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
User:Mikkalai refuses the normal conflict resolution process. While knowing this page is sensitive, he makes controversial edits without even letting a note on the talk page. I suggest we try to define a position here. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The killing of 700.000 people out of some 3.5 million is a genocide by any measure. It is also a democide and a politicide, but it was not exclusively politic, and its result is mainly ethnic today. The overwhelming majority of these people were Romanian/Moldovan and the region was subject at the same time to slavicization by immigration of Ukrainians and Russians, and to ethnic engineering that resulted in the created in the creation of the Moldovan nation. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I believe yes, because the Soviet anti-romanian discriminations have their roots in the refusal of the Soviet government to accept the decisions of the Chisinau Soviet. Therefore, they must be mentioned, to mark the continuity between Russian and Soviet policies. Dpotop 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
The Soviet politicide sections claims 2.34 million Romanians were deported from Bessarabia and Bukovina, of which 700k died, but the numbers appear inflated and the references given are very shady.
First of all, according to the Bessarabia article "The two provinces had an area of 20,000 square miles (51,000 km²) and they were inhabited by about 3.75 million people, mostly Romanians.". It is hard to believe that 2.34 million of those were deported and over 75% of Moldova's population is still claiming Moldovan/Romanian ethicity today.
Second, during World War II Romania allied with Germany and took back Bessarabia and Bukovina for several years. Russians had invaded the two regions in July 1940 (after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact) and held them until June 1941 when Romanians/Germans recovered them. They were under Romanian rule from 1941 until August 1944 when they were taken by the Russians again during Operation Iassy-Kishinev. Under these conditions I find it very hard to believe that "390,000 Romanians were deported of whom 51,000 were killed" between 1941-1945 as claimed here.
So if someone can provide more reliable references on the number of Romanians deported by the soviets from Bessarabia and Bukovina please do so.
What about discrimination against Romanian immigrants (including Romanian Romas) in Western Europe?
Rename the article Roumanian minorities and start from there. It does the discussion no good if all statements about these minorities come under the heading of an alleged hatred against them. The result is about as misleading as an article about the Jewish diaspora entitled "Antisemitism". And, it might perhaps be added, there IS antisemitism, for instance in Roumania; while there is no term as distinct to describe the situation of other minorities in Europe. Actually, to claim a "status of equal persecution" could be seen as a very right-wing concept within the Roumanian political framework itself. Attention, please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Klaus rabe ( talk • contribs) 16:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Sorry, I thought that this was automatically done by the talk engine. Klaus rabe
Actually, as far as Transsylvania is concerned - it might be a good idea to consider that LATIN was the common denominator, as a language of political power, for everyone concerned, while the concept of Roumanian as a cultural factor did not even exist in a socially divided society where access to the Latin sphere of culture defined participation in regional power. Roumanian speakers were as invisible as their (poor) Hungarian or German counterparts. Note as well that Latin was the official language of state in the kingdom of Hungary right into the 19th century. In any case, the term minority would apply to Transsylvania as well, since the region formed an integral part of the kingdom of Hungary as a whole. ( Klaus rabe 14:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC))
Maybe it would be best to remember that there is a big difference between a formally sovereign state like Moldavia where a minority among a majority were able to rule based on a dominant power's influence, but where discrimination was political and not ethnic, and countries where a vernacular culture re-emerged through the ascent of 19th century nationalism and AS A REACTION TO THE SAME PHENOMENON LEADING TO THE REPLACEMENT OF LATIN by the newly-emerged Hungarian language in Hungary ... After all, it is the nationalist movements on all sides AND alphabetization, i.e. cultural modernization of non-urban or metropolitan areas which led and leads to clashes between ethnic groups: the concept of minorities could not appear as a political factor in a society deprived of literacy. Which is not, of course, an argument in favour of analphabetism ... but a reason to look very closely at these cultural conditions before transferring contemporary points of view to earlier epochs where the ethnic differences could sometimes much more easily be bridged than after the advent of education and emancipation of the underprivileged classes in very, very backward and yet rather peaceful societies. (
Klaus rabe 00:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC))
(I've restored the talk page and am placing my comment at the bottom. I first wrote this without noticing that there was a deleted talk page.)
The reference apparatus is a mess. Hand-entered footnotes like "[2]". Multiple references with the same number. This should adopt cite.php... if anyone can tell what references are for what statements. - Jmabel | Talk 23:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Trying to clean what I can of this, but: is
really an acceptable citation? (Before I got there, by the way, this was just a blind URL.) Looks to me like a propaganda sheet, not a newspaper. - Jmabel | Talk 23:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
The section on Serbia is only tangenitally connected to reality. All the five sources are from the same "alternative" website, which has as its motto the following conspiracy-minded quote: In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. (George Orwell) Intrigued, I took a look at the English language version, which has as its top story that " Black hatemongering robbers murdered a 5-year-old white girl". In the corner, we are informed the website is "for people of European descent". Another story informs us that a video of David Duke is the most popular on Youtube. You should get the picture by now that this is a racist blog (yep, it is a blog), and by no means qualifies as a reputable source. This should justify the POV tag, and I shall be rectifying the section in the days to come. -- Еstavisti 06:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Vlachs call themself Vlachs before romanian nation started to exist, after the unification of Valachia nad Moldavia in one state and nation. So, they (Valachs in Serbia) didnt change there own nation. Someone said things about denationalization of Valachs in Serbia. So how he can explain that after 150 years of Valachian life in Serbia they still today speaking vallachian language in their homes? They are werry proud about their origin and great patriots of Serbia. You could ask any about their ethnicity, they will tells you that they are Vallachs of Serbia, and they dont have anything with state of Romania or romanian people exept similar ethnic origin from the old times, like Serbs with Poles or Czechs anyway... -- Boris Godunov ( talk) 02:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
BTW, I found an 1952 interesting article in New York Times (reprinted from "The Party Worker", the official newspaper of the Serbian Communist Party) which names the Vlachs "savages" and describes some very unlikely customs:
Murder! Necrophilia! Cannibalism! Drunken orgies for teenagers!
Those Vlachs are fun people, eh? :-) bogdan 12:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
despite the similarity in name, the Roma are no more closely related to the Romanians than they are to the other peoples of Europe.
I think this comment, or explanation, is a bit unnecessary. It sounds more like an excuse than an explanation. It is also POV. Lastly, I'm not so sure that comment applies so well to Muntenians. -- Thus Spake Anittas 20:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no connection, the 2 romanian states are documented some 3-400 years before the arrival (and sadly prompt enslavement) of the first roma emigrants in their eastern migration. Regardless, it's not really that relevant. Well both groups have been discriminated against, roma probably even more then romanians (Hitler genocide and all that). -- Helixdq 19:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
As always, a few incompentent Romanian editors come here to write out of their memory on controversial topics such as this one without using sources. Because of their incompetence, others now want to delete the article. I say that all unsourced material is to be removed and only sourced statements and information should be kept. -- Thus Spake Anittas 17:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Where the mayor or Rome himself made some anti-Romanian declarations? Somebody whould include these recent news —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nergaal ( talk • contribs) 08:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
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