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"Pavelic's Ustashe regime was the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe?" Who is writing these articles, Chetnik Youth? This whole paragraph (all the way to Malaparte quotes) should be deleted for two reasons: 1) Useless, non-encyclopedical garbage that can be used for propaganda only 2) Even if you ignore that you can see how badly is that text incorporated with the rest of the article (i.e. you just can't put such paragraph on the end of the article. Articles should end with place, time and circumstances of death info). - Yes my croatian brother, you are right, Pavelic was patriot and a good man, and all the Croatians loved him, and still love him.
Snowspinner ????
First you revert kucan and drnovsek articles and than you just revert this article not because of the size but because you didn`t like that I was wright when I said pavelic was fascist.
-- Avala
For me it is unexpected. I always fix if I am able to.
Well I took those pics for Belgrade from German wiki and you know that they use ADSL with 3mb/s!
:D-- Avala 15:25, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a person claiming as if
The person's identification - 72.139.243.79 (IP Address)
To disjudge those who might trust this person - here are the quotes worth of reading:
In April 1941 separatist Croats of the fascist terrorist organization 'Ustasha' set up in Zagreb an Independent Croat regime with Dr. Ante Pavelic as fuehrer, or "Poglavnik," and with Marshal Slavko Kvaternik as minister of war.
The new state, organized on strictly fascist and authoritarian lines, excelled quickly by the special ruthlessness and cruelty with which it persecuted, and partially exterminated the large Serb minority and the small Jewish population...
"Encyclopedia Britannica, 1943 - Book of the year," page 215, Entry: 'Croatia'
Slavko Kvaternik explained [in a radio program on April 10, 1941, the day the 'Independent State of Croatia' was formed] how a pure Croatia should be built - by forcing one third of the Serbs to leave Croatia, one third to convert to Catholicism, and one third to be exterminated. Soon Ustasha bands initiated a bloody orgy of mass murder of Serbs unfortunate enough not to have converted or left Croatia on time.
The enormity of such criminal behavior shocked even the conscience of German commanders, but Pavelic had Hitler's personal support for such actions which resulted in the loss of the lives of hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
'Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations,' Europe, edition 1995, page 91, entry: 'Croatia.'
The Orthodox recipe of Ante Pavelic, Ustashi leader and Croatian Fuehrer, reminds one of the religious wars in [their] bloodiest aspects: one-third must become Catholic, one-third must leave the country and one-third must die. The last item was executed. When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three-quarters of a million.
Herman Naubacher, "Sonderauftrag Sudosten 1940-1945. Bericht eines fliegenden Diplomate," Goettingen, 1956
In Croatia the indigenous fascist regime set about a policy of 'racial purification' that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated, as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one third liquidated. ... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside. The partial collaboration of the Catholic clergy in these practices continues to be a component of Serb-Croat suspicion.
'Encyclopaedia Britannica,' Edition 1991, Macropedia, Vol. 29, page 1111.
Nonpartisan sources agree that mass genocide was authorized by the state of Croatia. They concur the state instigated, planned, and executed masses against the Serbian Orthodox minority... and that the Catholic clergy approved, led, or failed to denounce these massacres. The Croats' collective hatred of the Orthodox Serbs was explicit in folk sayings such as ["Srbe o vrbe" -] "Serbs to the willows [hang the Serbs]."
...
By June 1941, signs on public establishments read, 'NO SERBS, JEWS, NOMADS ['Gypsies'] AND DOGS ALLOWED."
Helen Fein, "Accounting for Genocide - Victims and Survivors of the Holocaust," The Free Press, New York, Edition 1979, pages 102, 103.
Even the most extraordinary massacres in the darkest era of history would not soil its name - Croatia... Kill, kill, scream the Ustashi against Serbs. And they cut their heads off and throw bodies away into the Sava River which flows slowly and gravely in the direction of Belgrade...
"Go back to your motherland, go back to your motherland."
"Neither Fascists nor Nazi have the remotest resemblance to the Ustashi, they are a fauna absolutely extraordinary and strange..."
Alfio Russo, "Revoluzione in Jugoslavia," Roma 1944
For now I began to get news from Croatia that told of slowly rising tide of murders, of unrepeatable atrocities, of massacres of defenceless Serbs by berserk-mad Croatians and by [fascist] Moslems in Bosnian Croatia. In the little back parlors of trusty men, the tales were whispered. I could not believe a quarter of them. Unfortunately, I was soon to know that they were a weak understatement of the truth. Men were to arrive in Dubrovnik itself, hung with strings of Serbian tongues and with bowls of Serbian eyes for sale.
Ruth Mitchell, "The Serbs Choose War," Doubleday, Doran, 1943, page 148
Jasenovac [was] the largest concentration camp in Croatia. Jasenovac was in fact a complex of several subcamps, in close proximity to each other, on the bank of the Sava River... established in August 1941 and was dismantled only on April 1945...
Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime... The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe... A particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustashe guards...
The acts of murder and of the cruelty in the camp reached their peak in the late summer of 1942, when tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the area of the fighting against the partisans in the Kozara Mountains.
'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,' Vol. 2, page 739.
In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, on the night of August 29, 1942, orders were issued for executions. Bets were made as to who could liquidate the largest number of inmates. Peter Brzica cut the throats of 1,360 prisoners with a specially sharp butcher's knife. Having been proclaimed the prizewinner of the competition, he was elected King of the Cutthroats. A gold watch, a silver service, and a roasted sucking pig and wine were his other rewards...
Avro Manhattan, "The Vatican's Holocaust," 1986, page 48.
Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999 Page 500
In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children, from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described what happened next.
The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.
"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event. They were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered in this fashion"
The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in
Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945 Stuttgart, 1964, page 101
"The horrors that the Ustashi have committed over the Serbian small girls is beyond all words. There are hundreds of photographs confirming these deeds because those of them who have survived the torture: bayonet stabs, pulling of tongues and teeth, nails and breast tips - all this after they were raped. Survivors were taken in by our officers and transported to Italian hospitals where these documents and facts were gathered."
(Commander of the Italian Sassari Division in Croatia, 1941)
"Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."
(Report to Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler from the GeheimeStaatspolizei - GESTAPO - dated February 17, 1942)
Hermann Heubacher, the German Minister to Belgrade (1941) Hitler's personal assistant for the South-East Europe and the Balkan affairs in Zagreb (1942-1944), a witness at Nuremberg Trial in his book
Sonderauftrag Suedost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten,2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957
page 31.
Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegensaetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven und Muselmanen. Als ich einmal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete, di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic, erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.
WENN FUEHRENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GESCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE UEBERTREIBUNG. AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.
Translation of the capital lettering only:
When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three quarter of a million.
End of translation
Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte mir Adolf Hitler:
"Ich habe dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minderheit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"
page 18.
Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Racheund Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Serbentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Weltgeschichte: ..... -- Purger 16:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Everyking, it's unclear to me what the long paragraph about the book accomplishes. If the eye-basket is really a figment of the author's imagination, then don't mention it, otherwise readers can draw the conclusion that it was a normal feature for writers to go around publishing fabricated horror stories about the poor old innocent person. -- Shallot 00:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Huh? Don't lecture me, I just made a few minor fixes to the paragraph. I have no opinion on whether it should be included, I've never even heard of the book. Everyking 00:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999 Page 500
In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children, from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described what happened next.
The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.
"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event. They were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered in this fashion"
The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in
Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945 Stuttgart, 1964, page 101
"The horrors that the Ustashi have committed over the Serbian small girls is beyond all words. There are hundreds of photographs confirming these deeds because those of them who have survived the torture: bayonet stabs, pulling of tongues and teeth, nails and breast tips - all this after they were raped. Survivors were taken in by our officers and transported to Italian hospitals where these documents and facts were gathered."
(Commander of the Italian Sassari Division in Croatia, 1941)
"Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."
(Report to Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler from the GeheimeStaatspolizei - GESTAPO - dated February 17, 1942)
Hermann Heubacher, the German Minister to Belgrade (1941) Hitler's personal assistant for the South-East Europe and the Balkan affairs in Zagreb (1942-1944), a witness at Nuremberg Trial in his book
Sonderauftrag Suedost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten,2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957
page 31.
Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegensaetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven und Muselmanen. Als ich einmal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete, di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic, erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.
WENN FUEHRENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GESCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE UEBERTREIBUNG. AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.
Translation of the capital lettering only:
When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three quarter of a million.
End of translation
Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte mir Adolf Hitler:
"Ich habe dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minderheit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"
page 18.
Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Racheund Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Serbentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Weltgeschichte: ..... -- Purger 16:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394929
"They started with one huge husky peasant who began singing an old historicalheroic song of the Serbs. They put his head on the table and as he continued to sing they slit his throat and then the next squad moved in to smash his skull. 'This is what you are all getting' an USTASA (Croatian Nazi) screamed. USTASE surrounded us. ..Then the slaughter began...Within a matter of minutes we stood in a lake of blood."
Ljubo Jadnak, Survivor, Yugoslavia
"This State, our country is only for Croatians, and not for anyone else. There are no ways and means which we Croatians will not use to make our country truly ours and to clean it of all Jews and orthodox Serbs. All those who came to our country 300 years ago must disappear. We do not hide this our intention."
Milovan Zanic, Minister of Justice, Croatia
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395075
The crimes of the Ustasha documented by the Zagreb indictment included the murder of hundreds of specifically named Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews; the creation of the Jasenovac concentration camp, where hundreds of thousands of individuals were killed; and the following specific cases of barbarism:
1. tying families by their hands with wire, forcing them into a pit, and cracking their skulls with sledgehammers;
2. operating a crematorium at Jasenovac into which persons were flung alive;
3. herding Serbs into their Orthodox churches ... and then butchering them with knives;
4. medical experiments into the perseverance of human organisms;
5. slitting open the bellies of pregnant women;
6. drinking blood from the slashed throats of the victims;
7. inducing cannibalism among camp inmates;
8. mutilation of the living and the dead;
9. raping schoolgirls before their mothers;
10. catching infants on bayonets;
11. inventing new methods of torture;
12. throwing burning lime on the living in execution pits;
13. feeding food laced with caustic soda to starving children.38
The evidence against Artukovic also included, in addition to evidence about his role in the above activities of the Ustasha, various affidavits from witnesses who had been in a position to observe his activities during World War II.
C. Malaparte, Kaputt, page 266 Nortwestern University Press, Evanston, IL
A basket of oysters
While he spoke, I gazed at a wicker basket on the Poglawnik's desk. The lid was raised and the basket seemed to be filled with mussels, or shelled oysters - as they are occasionally displayed in the windows of Fortnum and Mason in Piccadilly in London. Casertano looked at me and winked, 'Would you like a nice oyster stew?'
'Are they Dalmatian oysters?' I asked the Poglawnik
Ante Pavelic removed the lid from the basket and revealed the mussels, the slimy and jelly-like mass, and he said smiling, with that tired good-natured smile of his,
'It is a present from my loyal ustashis. Twenty kilos of human eyes.'
Pavelic's regime was clearly not "the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe". In fact, Ustasha murders and crimes were nowhere near as organized as German or even Soviet/Allied ones. Most of the people comitting these crimes were uneducated thugs. Gestapo certainly had more organized methods of torture, while concentration camps in Germany took far more lives than those in Croatia.
Why did the above pro-Croat Ustasha supporter not have the courage to leave his name or username, before spouting his pro-Ustase rhetoric??
No courage, I guess, just like his fascist murderous countrymen, the Ustasha??? Brandubh Blathmac 15:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
And, as has already been said, literature and poetry have no place as sources of an encyclopedia article.
Having had a private audience with the Pope during WWII when his state was slaughtering hundreds of thousands of non Catholic people, and given his own personal rescue by the Roman Catholic church after WW2 and the relationship between his political party and his state with the RC church, Ante Pavelić is certainly Catholic enough to be categorized as such in the categories listed at the end of the page.
To do otherwise is to be dishonest in every sense.
Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
NOTE: DEMIURGE REVISIONISM ON THE PROWL -- JUST LIKE WITH DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN USA; PRE-CODE MOVIES AND ROMAN CATHOLIC PRODUCTION CODE OF CENSORSHIP IN MOVIES IN 20TH CENTURY, ETC.!!
Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The latest edit now has it as 'semi national socialist/fascist' which is ungainly and confusing. What is a semi-nazi? Personally I would keep it simple and just go for the most general term - fascist, though if people feel we need to be more specific there is clerical fascist which fits them like a glove. Bengalski 16:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
This is conjecture and as such has no place in Wikipedia. The fact that the author cannot cite definite numbers and uses generalisations: "close to one third Serbs, even if not more." weakens the text. For this reason alone it should be removed.
The extent of this campaign against the Serbs was a real genocide, because they aimed to exterminate a third of them, expel another third, and Catholicize another. The Ustaše succeeded in reaching their first goal - they exterminated close to one third Serbs, even if not more.
What place has this discussion of literature and poetic descriptions of Ustashe activities got in a encyclopedic article about the leader of the Ustashe? If it belongs anywhere (which is quite questionable) it belongs under the Ustashe entry.
Utashe atrocities made a strong impression on literature and poetry. "Basket of Oysters", a chapter of Curzio Malaparte's novel Kaputt, depicted Ustashe's widespread practice of gouging out the eyes of Serbs. In Jama ("The Pit"), Ivan Goran Kovačić wrote of how Serbs were wrapped in barbed wire and dropped into pits. Other works inspired by the Ustashe were Oljača's Kozara and Svetina's Volčiči ("The Wolf Puppies").
What did Chetniks do???? So innocent ay....two sides to every story ...flip the coin.... I think more Croats died by Serbs, most is hidden in POV....look at Bosnia my friend...who did the mass killing there
A lot that is written about Pavelic is fiction and propagnada. Yes he was a Nazi but more like a Nazi Puppet. He had little power. This guy just did as ordered by nazis. But wait a minute didnt most of Europe..wasnt just him. One has to remember the Ustashe and Ante Pavelic were a ""minority"" of Croats who fought alongside the Nazis. ""Most Croats"" and Tito himself fought against the Nazis. It hurts me when people label Croats and single them out ---but forget all the other countries who had nazi forces and in much bigger numbers. WW1--- WW2 was a dark time in history but the truth needs to be told and not hyped up by ignorance. ANTE PAVELIC was anti his own people ...he disliked the Dalmatian Coast (Croats too) and offered them to Italy...so i wouldnt say he was very Croat in any shape or form. Pavelic was just a puppet on a string...but so was most of Europe..including Italy France Hungary Estonia Serbia etc...
The claim that Pavelic was just a puppet rates with similar ones like "all of the Nazis were just listening to what Hitler ordered". And why would you need a lot of power to commit murders or genocide? -- Dultz 18:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
..........stop blowing Serbian POV on this page............ half of what you say is untrue............Pavelic was a puppet...he had no power to do such things.....just propaganda and that has no room on wikipedia.... War is war...killings went on all sides...no good guys in war...wake up Evergreen Montenegro1 03:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone is a puppet, then they should do the job properly by killing their victims straightforwardly, and not make them die in agony and in a humiliating way such as by forcing them to drink battery acid or plucking their eyes out and selling them on the market as 'good luck charms'.
Why is there no mention of of the fact that Ante Pavelic had a Serbian bodyguard. This bodyguard was with him right up until Pavelic fled to Argentina. Some of the Ustashe troops where in fact Serbs by blood. These are known facts and should be mentioned. Source....some books i have read while living in Yugoslavia ...very unbias books as it was time of Yugoslvia. Title ...it was so long ago...but one might check with historians.
This statment (coming from "some books") is close to those that claim that most of the Nazis were Jews, so it was Jews who killed the Jews, don't blame the Germans! Bollocks. -- Dultz 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the Partizan football club in Belgrade was run for many years by former Croat President Franjo Tudjman...he was president when the club was founded in around 1945 and spent many years involved with the club.
And what should this tell us? I don't understand. -- Dultz 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Evergreen Montenegro1 03:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic was kind but nieve because he agreed to Italy if Hitler won the war the region of Istria and Dalmatia would be given to Italy. Even though Ustahes did Kill a lot of serbs it wasn't that much as the serbs clamied. Franjo Tudman had a look at how many Serbs were killed during the Second world war he got a total of 38,000. But the Ustashe army treated most allied prisoner with kindness. -- Marbus2 5 11:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all i read the artical and somewhere there it saids that there was a lack of Documented evdience to show how many serbs were killed by the Ustase. They say a estimate of 25,000 to 1,000,000. But ask yourself where did the estimates come from, Probley from the communist of Yugoslavia who won the war which was lead by Tito Brojz and we know how much propaganda the communist Yugoslavs have put on Croatia after World War 2 and onwards. -- Marbus2 5 13:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, would you like to deny
Holocaust for the record as well? And please, brush up on your English, or otherwise don't contribute. Thanks, --
C-c-c-c
20:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The holocaust is also full of properganda 1,000,000 Jews died in Poland in a Concentration Camp, Yeah right how could 1,000,000 jews die and there is no mention on how many other national's died. Its as if their were no other nationalitys in the concentration camp accept jews. Now honostly could have 1,000,000 jews died in poland or was it form all diffrent nationalitys. -- Marbus2 5 10:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, Pavelic was kind man.... and Hitler worked for the Red Cross. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.105.48.93 ( talk) 12:11, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
I see some anon editors have been engaged in revert-warring, to the point of removing the {{NPOV}} tag. I've no particular opinion on who's right or wrong here, but compromise needs to be reached.
Pretty much every reputable source (including Britannica, Great Soviet and Brockhaus) calls him a fascist leader. The Nazi thing seems a bit like OR – "Nazi" is mostly reserved for the NSDAP people themselves. See e.g. Ion Antonescu. -- Elephantus 23:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I've requested semi-protection for this page. Let's see what happens. But please, can we resolve this here rather than engaging in revert wars? - Ali-oops ✍ 14:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
A request has been made that this article be unprotected. Is it ready for unprotection? I don't see a lot of talking going on over the past few days, but then it was a weekend. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 23:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a wiki. Pages can't stay protected forever, particularly when there's no discussion toward resolving the disputes that caused the protection in the first place. I'd rather just block bad actors and let the rest of us get on with building an encyclopedia. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
NOTICE: 64.18.16.251 and a number of other users have been identified as sock puppets of Purger. See here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Purger. -- Zmaj 09:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Kovacic, himself Croat, never mentioned ustashe or Serbs in his poem "Jama". He was talking about innocent victims of war and their inhumane executors that were present on all sides with nationalist hatred during the WW2. Not to mention that the poet himself was killed by the Serb nationalist chetniks! This shameful abuse of a great poem for Serbian nationalist propaganda is a disgrace for Wikipedia. Things like this should be moderated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.152.217.129 ( talk • contribs) 09:46, 17 Jul 2006 (UTC)
Kovacic did not talk about 'innocent victims of war and their inhumane executors that were present on all sides' - he was talking about Ustashi - even when not mentioning them. Kovacic was killed by Tito's henchmen - the same way they killed Mladen Stojanovic. Then he invented stories about chetniks - as their killers.-- 72.75.55.21 21:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that mentioning of Kovacic is not really appropriate in this place. No nationalities nor ideologies were mentioned in the poem. I would like to remind people that Italians made many crimes in Istria and Primorje region, and there isn't much talk about it. I see that as preferring Italia ahead of Croatia and Slovenia by most of the world. That occurs in changing names that exist in both Italian and Croatian/Slovenian versions to Italian, and decrementing crimes made by Italian fascists which consequences are still visible in many villages. Kovacic's poem "Jama", is a poem about war crime and death. It doesn't say who are the victims and who are murderers. They could be Ustashe, Chetnics, Italian fascists or partisans taking revenge. Crime and death are universal. Martin 17:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand why people would call Ante a war criminal (in my opinion, deservedly so). However, the Wikipedia Category:War Criminals is for people convicted of war crimes (or at least so the description on its page says). Therefore, if Ante was never convicted of war crimes, neither during his life nor posthumously, he should not be put into that category, though I see nothing wrong in saying somewhere in the article that he fits the conventional definition of a war criminal pretty well. -- int19h 07:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic got the Death penalty - he was convicted by the Partisan court. Ante was convicted; the difference is that punishment wasn't executed. -- PaxEquilibrium 18:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
He was never convicted in any court. Show trials in dictatorships without rule of law, and withouth any jurisdiction over Pavelić, who lived in a different country and was a citizen of a different state (Croatia), doesn't count. North Corea may declare Bush to be a war criminal, but it's only the POV of North Corea and no basis for categorizing him as such. Shgoals 02:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic was the leader of Ustase, but the Ustase were not national-socialists (who were the German NSAPD party led by Adolf Hitler) nor were they fascists (who were Italian led by Mussolini). The Ustase were a nationalist party (movement) and their agenda was that of Croatian nationalists (establishment of the Croatian state). However, they did not share the same ideology as the NSAPD or the Italian Fascists. Their ideology would find a counterpart in Franco's Spain, perhaps. Lusich 04:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Clearly this article has heavy POV problems, including both Anti-Pavelić and Anti-Croatian (denying the Croatian people the right to independence) as well as pro-communist/pro-Serbian bias. Shgoals 02:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness, Ustasha should be referred to as a political and nationalist organization, in lieu of "terrorist" organization as written in this article.
In comparison, the Nazi Party of Germany was just that: a political/nationalist party, not a terrorist organization.
The reference to the NDH (Independant State of Croatia as a "puppet Nazi(German) regime is likewise totally off-base. As the Croatians are culturally and historically a part of Western Europe, they are also the traditional allies of the Germanic peoples. After being forcibly pushed into the previous "Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes", the Croatians were primed for a nationalist movement.
I have revised the article with a more neutral standpoint for people new/researching the subject. I have removed terms such as "terrorist organization, puppet regime, etc, only to have the article changed again to a more opinionated, Serbian perspective.
The term terrorist organiztion needs to be left out indefinitely; it is a biased term for a neutral arcticle.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center likewise is not an unbiased source of information. They do have an agenda, and hence should not be used for factual information.
We are going around in circles here. Until this article is free and clear of opinionated statements, is should not be considered as a legitimate source of information for any person looking for information regarding Ante Pavelic. The utter lack of neutrality, incorrect historical statements, and the use of agenda-driven entities for information, have rendered this article unreadable to a person genuinely researching the subject. Nathraq 18:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)nathraq
I have previously corrected only POV and opinionated statements in this article, that seemed to have been a problem for you. Why would I go about wasting my time and energy fixing historical inaccuracies, only to have the page switching back and forth between edits by certain people with an slanted view of the subject? Until Wiki gets involved, and semi-blocks this article after POV and bias oriented statements have been removed, I will leave it alone. Or maybe a person with a more commanding knowledge of the English language other than the person who added statements such as "puppet-state", "terrorist" etc. will come along and reiterate that this article is not neutral. Nathraq 11:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is a number of reputable references confirming this as true:
Pavelic and his followers eventually decided to strike down the head of state. In collusion with IMRO, the Macedonian terrorist organization, three Ustashi agents were the direct accomplices of the IMRO assassins who murdered King Alexander and the French foreign minister in Marseilles in October 1934.
In November 1990 the first free elections were held in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). The undisputed winner was the extremist nationalist IMRO-DPMNU (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization - Democratic Party of Macedonian National Unity). Both its name and its manifesto refer directly to the organization of the same name that was active at the end of the ninetheenth century. Nor is it a coincidence that a report published by the US Department of State in 1991 describes IMRO-DPMNU as a terrorist organization modelling itself on the old IMRO.
Indeed, the Kosove Committee signed an agreement on co-operation with the Bulgarian terrorist organization IMRO in 1920, on joint actions against the young South Slav state
Hovever, the Balkans have a long tradition of terrorism in which the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) played a leading role as well as Croat Ustasha.
With the assistance of the army and the moderate wing of IMRO, the government was able to disband the terrorist organization; its leader, Ivan Mihailov fled.
Ideological similarities and the goal of destroying Yugoslavia provided basis for co-operation between Pavelic's party and the IMRO (Inner Macedonian Revolutionary Organization), a Bulgarian right-wing terrorist organization.
Operatives of the Macedonian terrorist organization IMRO assassinated Stamboliski's close adviser Alexander Dimitrov.
In 1903 the IMRO (a terrorist organization founded in Thessaloniki in 1893) orchestrated the 1903 Ilinden uprising (for details, see Chapter 5).
-- Standshown ( talk) 00:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Standshown ( talk) 02:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have not expected jokes in so serious discussion (neutral point of view is something I follow strictly) :)) In wikipedia this organizations are not terrorist organizations:
Do you want to say that IMRO is terrorist organizations but this 3 are not ?? If you still think that IMRO is terrorist organization then you are using double standards because it is not possible that this 3 are not terrorist organizations but IMRO is !! -- Rjecina ( talk)
First claim
World Service never uses the term "terrorist" exept when it is attributed to third parties. The reason? Its use implies a judgment and a point of view. And the World Service, like Wikipedia, strives not to have a point of view. Kirker ( talk) 09:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Second claim
Do you want to say that IMRO is terrorist organizations but this 3 are not ?? If you still think that IMRO is terrorist organization then you are using double standards because it is not possible that this 3 are not terrorist organizations but IMRO is !! -- Rjecina ( talk)
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
Al-Qaeda has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United Nations Security Council, [1] the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General, [2] [3] the Commission of the European Communities of the European Union, [4] the United States Department of State, [5] the Australian Government, [6] Public Safety Canada, [7] the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [8] Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook, [9] South Korean Foreign Ministry, [10] the Dutch Military Intelligence and Security Service, [11] the United Kingdom Home Office, [12] Russia, [13] the Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs, [14] and the Swiss Government. [15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel,[7] Japan,[8] and the United States,[9] and is banned in Jordan.[10] Australia [11] and the United Kingdom [12] list the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. In recent years Hamas has grown in popularity, though in the last year Hamas's popularity has started to wane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO
According to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report, the PLO was "the richest of all terrorist organizations" with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc.". The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world including Zimbabwe and Somalia.[5]
-- Standshown ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have now restored some of the editing reverted by Stagalj, with appropriate references. Some of the changes are simply to remove sloppy wording. (For instance Pavelić did not "act" as defence counsel, he WAS defence counsel. And "the Skopje trials" was an inappropriate phrase since it would embrace many scores of trials that have taken place in Skopje.) I hope the present wording re IMRO will be acceptable to Stagalj. It indicates that IMRO members were charged with terrorist offences (fact) but without defining IMRO as "terrorist" (opinion). With the POV description deleted, a series of lengthy references became redundant since they had been provided only to show that IMRO has sometimes been described as a terrorist organisation. I have therefore deleted them. As I have previously suggested to Stagalj, there may be a case for Wikipedia citing the various ways that IMRO has been described. But the place for that is in the IMRO article, to which this article links. The last point to note is that I have moved the edited text back to where I had it before, under the heading 1920s and 1930s. I hope that this at least is beyond contention. Kirker ( talk) 15:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
To reference Kaputt is complete nonsense and Harvard scholar Michael McAdams has proved otherwise in his book "Croatia: Myth&Reality" - which is much more credible than anything presented here. I would like to add much to this, but what is the point of writing something out and referencing it, when someone can just erase it the next day? Is there a way around this?
I am new to Wikipedia and the whole lay out of these discussions is very confusing so please correct my placing of this if it is in an inappropriate place. AP1929 ( talk) 07:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The links at the bottom of this article are so bad it is almost laughable. - all of the sources are Serbian or Jewish - not to mention that the Jasenovac website has lost all credibility considering it's totally bogus list of victims (my own family is listed as being killed at Jasenovac ... don't believe me, find a Croatian friend/acquaintance and he will easily locate one of his family members who obviously did not perish there.) AP1929 ( talk) 08:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Fascist ? Pavelic took on some fascist principles, but he himself was not a fascist and the NDH was not a fascist state - not to mention we live in the 21st century and the term "fascist" doesn't really mean anything anymore. When I see "fascist" - unless it is in regards to Mussolini's Italy or Spain etc (States that openly identified themselves as fascist, and had their own defined form of fascism) - then I see that the person who wrote that in the article clearly has some sort of bias.
Pavelic's stance on fascism is quite clear in his own book "Strahote Zabluda" which was written prior to NDH IN fascist Italy. AP1929 ( talk) 07:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ustasa movement was not a ""extremist catholic/nationalist and genocidal organisation". Why ? Well... many people who were not Catholic were Muslims - 80 percent of the most elite Ustasa formation known as Crna Legija / Black Legion was that of Islamic faith, not to mention that the country itself was only about 50 percent Catholic. It is understandable for someone to get that impression becausei n the 90s when war broke out, the Serbian propaganda machine started reeling out pictures of Ustase with priests etc, Bishops that supported the Ustase, this all had to do with the "revival of NDH" which the serbs 'feared' and it was easy to use things like this when the Pope himself and the Vatican recognized the Republic of Croatia early on in the days of the war.
Dr. Ante Pavelic said it himself :
Brat je mio koje vjere bio.Mi imamo jedan veliki dio naroda,koji je katoličke vjere.Imamo muslimana,imamo evangeličke vjere ,ima i pučanstva koje je u pravoslavlju.Državni je interes da ne bude u državi nikakvih nesporazuma,a najmanje vjerskih trzavica.Nama je to posebni interes,jer znamo da smo na granici Balkana,mi znamo da smo s istim Balkanom osobito bili vjekovima u doticaju.Mi znamo,da smo bili i pod balkanskim pritiskom,mi znamo da se na Balkanu do nedavna narod razlikovao po vjerama,da je narodnost bila,ne ću reći,zamrla,ali tako prikrivena uslied dogadjaja,da je vidljiva bila samo vjera i da su se ljudi po vjeri razlikovali.To je momenat prošlosti.Danas smo svi jedno,mi smo u jednoj državi,jer imamao narodnu nacionalnu sviest i obilježje i ne možemo i ne smiemo da bi drugi momenti-pa i vjerski momenti-unosili u našu zajednicu trzavice. Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic,28.veljače 1942
A brother is a friend no matter what religion he may be. We have one large portion of our population which is of the Catholic faith. We have Muslims, we have Evangelists, we even have a Orthodox population. The nations interests are that there are no misunderstandings, especially those of ones to do with faith. It is in our greatest interest because we know that we are on the border of the "Balkan", we know that we have suffered greatly under the thumb of the Balkan and we know that until not too long ago many people identified themselves with their faith. That is a part of history. Today we are all one, we are one nation, we have a peoples national mark and we can not let faith get between us. Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic. February 28, 1942
As for "genocide" highly doubtful. Once again, Croatian history is very tainted and everyday some type of new discovery makes it's way out. Take a look at the principles of the Ustasa movement it was founded upon. Cheers, AP1929 ( talk) 21:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
My friend, you still have a long way to go - I - someone who knows actual Ustase and living Ministers of NDH, someone who has collected hundreds of Ustasa magazines in the Croatian diaspora, someone who spends most of his life studying NDH and Ustastvo, still does not know it all - but I can tell you, you have a long, long, long way to go. Don't let it discourage you.
Now - The information you have put in the WW2 sections is in great majority incorrect, even down to simple things - "Domobran's were unequipped soldiers who did not commit crimes" lol ... I think you should take a look at Hrvatsko Domobranstvo a little better. Oh and Ustasa was a paramilitary ? Do you know what a paramilitary is ? A paramilitary is something like blackwter or HOS during the Croatian war of independence (until HOS was recognized as a fighting for in BiH by the Bosnian government of course) Ustaska vojnica was a massive army and that as one recognized and set up by the state of NDH. Paramilitaries and guerrilla armies are those which are set up a part from the state and are not recognized fighting forces i.e partizans etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AP1929 ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
UGH ! I would like to have the user who keeps changing all of this banned ! I put so much work into finding the original record of the "Proglas" of NDH (announcement) and writing it all out in Croatian and then translating it into english but this imbeciles still wants to tell me because he thinks he knows something about Slavko Kvatrenik. Slavko Kvatrenik did not proclaim NDH on April 10th 1941, it was Marko Dosen.
Not to mention, the person who did this also snuck in "fascist" before Ustase in some parts of the article. I shall be making a complaint to wikipedia right now ! Cheers to everyone who is willing to learn/debate !
AP1929 ( talk) 19:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Croatian revisionism is in full sway. Pavelic was not a fascist or a nazi? Something worse than both - there are numerous reference already given here (on the talk page) and in the very article, too.
-- Standshown ( talk) 02:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
@ User:Rjecina My suggestions to you are as follows : Don't even go to school to be as credible as I am, don't study NDH like I do - but atleast learn how to speak/read/write in the english language before you plan on making contributions to an encyclopedic article. If you are fluent in Croatian, or Serbian, discuss and edit the Serbian/Croatian wikipedia versions, as you can clearly communicate and add to those articles in the language at hand.
NDH was not a "puppet state" and labeling it as so is against wikipedia regulations. End of story. NDH is only a puppet state in the former-Yugoslavia who either have very strong hatred toward NDH or want to distance it self from NDH. We here in the modern, civilized world have different means of communication. The parts that I had edited out were incorrect and bias, if I had the time to correct such nonsense I would have done so, but instead I left it open for everyone. You have deleted my vital information about HOP (which most non-Croats have means to find out what HOP even is), you have deleted my section about Islam in the NDH , and about the Orthodox church in NDH. You have also deleted the numerous image contributions I have made, which I find fairly offensive as I took the time to upload those images (from my own archives) and display them to the rest of the world. Next time I will make sure to copy/paste and save my version, so that I may do the exact same childish thing you just did to me - vise versa.
Now....
@ User:Kirker Never once did I say that the NDH was innocent, but it is hard to remain 'neutral' with people spewing such undoubted Yugoslav/Zionist/Serbian propaganda ! I am giving you my two cents, which should be very valuable as I have access to actual NDH archives, books, information, eyewitness accounts ! Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic had his own men sentenced to death for the mistreatment of inmates in Jasenovac ? Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic put an end to the 'wild Ustase' (non-sworn herzegovinian peasants rampaging and slaughtering Serbian civilians in southeastern Herzegovina). Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic founded the Croatian Orthodox church in 1942 to try to appease to the Serbs living within NDH who were rampaging and massacring all along the countryside? Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic did not want anything to do with the persecution of the Jew in NDH and by 1943 released Jewish inmates to the Germans? Did you know that NDH did not have ONE not ONE death camp ? There were no places in NDH where people were systematically killed. People died of poor conditions in camps and at the hand of lunatic guards, but there was no actual camp policy (even at Jasenovac) that indicated the large scale systematic slaughter of the people there ? There were no gas chambers, no crematoriums like at Auschwitz - there were however lunatic Ustase guards who really hated serbs and chose to act on their own ! No one is denying that ! BUT, to generalize everyone, the entire group, is purely ridiculous and is unlike our civilized western society. My whole point here is, many myths have been created about NDH and people really need to look into them. No one is saying that NDH was some totally innocent country that committed no crimes, because that is as much nonsense as "NDH was a brutal killing machine and everyday it rained there because if a superior being was to put pathetic false on one place in the world at that time it was NDH because it was just that bad!" come on !
The NDH had many intellectual institutions, released an encyclopedia edition every year it existed, it had schools, theaters, people practiced their faith openly, celebrated culture - lived life !
AP1929 ( talk) 04:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
@ User:Kirker Actually, I had simply made *one* spelling error, and that is pretaining to the word "fallacy" (as I had not used it in quite some time).
Pathetic Fallacy : or anthropomorphic fallacy is the description of inanimate natural objects in a manner that endows them with human feelings, thoughts and sensations.
Not to mention that it is a total run-on sentence without punctuation, thus making a mockery of Serbian/Zionist/Yugoslav propaganda, which isn't even well-written in the first place.
And now let's get something straight about my Poglavnik - to me, he is a Croatian hero, probably one of the greatest of all time (my opinion) but he is still a human being and I know his flaws and mistakes very well - and will acknowledge them. When my 'zeal' comes out is when some uneducated hoodlum comes on here trying to tell me completely made up garbage about him or NDH. I am not here to paint pretty pictures of Poglavnik, rather share the truth, and correct the incorrect. Thanks, AP1929 ( talk) 23:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
AP1929 has made sweeping changes to the content and balance of the article without attempting to explain them here. He has also removed a whole raft of references (including, for instance, Neubacher's contemporary, on-the-spot observations) presumably because they do not accord with his own views. Also some of his changes are decidedly POV - for instance it was "unfortunate" that Croatians came to feel betrayed by Pavelić. (My view is that it was not before time, but as with AP1929's, my view should not come into it.) As he understands how Wikipedia works, his editing borders on bad faith. Moreover the English he has used is at best slovenly, with bizarre lapses into the present tense, etc. Yet he presumes to lecture others on their spelling and use of English. The article was fairly poor to start with and I am not, myself, wholly opposed to everything AP1929 has tried to do. But I would suggest that he needs to stand back a little and take a more objective view of the guy he clearly adulates if he wants his edits to survive. However much he wants to pass the blame on to others, the fact is that vast and grotesque crimes occured on Pavelić's watch and no encyclopedia entry can overlook that. Maybe the best way forward is to undo all AP1929's recent edits, protect the article from further editing and only lift that protection when we have reached a consensus here about how to improve it. Any views? Kirker ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Because this user and his puppets have edited this and many articles in times when they have been banned I will in this month revert all changes which has been writen against wikipedia rules. -- Rjecina ( talk) 20:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
@
User:Rjecina How mature. You will not win. I guarantee it.
For the rest of the nonCroatian speaking world, Rjecina's above title "Pederkovic Ante" means "Faggot Ante".
What I am doing is in good faith, I have presented the facts, and now will work on the tenses and such. User:AniMate had removed my article on the grounds that it ignores what happened during World War Two and because of improper tenses. The original edit ignores the majority of Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic's life, and basically goes into irrelevant ramblings in order to degrade him - not to mention that the punctuation and writing was even more brutal then my trouble with tenses which I agreed to fix up. I know what people like you, and Rjecina want, and it is the constant reminder of Croatia being a Nazi-ally, Ustase being Nazis, and 'crimes' of the "Ustasa regime". The fact of the matter is this, NDH crimes, belong in their own article which should be referenced in this one. To blame Dr.Pavelic for the crimes of individuals and to label him a fascist criminal is incorrect and is not a neutral description. AP1929 ( talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I used Poglavnik Title during WW2 and Dr. title throughout the rest of his life, if someone has the time, remove them and fix up my past/present mistakes.
I would like my article to be the template for this page (as it is much better than the one before), so if you would like to add to it, go right ahead ! Post your edits here and we will discuss (kind of fresh start). AP1929 ( talk) 18:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I've filed two RFCs in the History and Biography sections asking for some outside opinions. Obviously, the two "sides" are pretty far apart and this is a way for us to gain consensus about the direction of this article. AniMate 03:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Ante Pavelić (July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) was the Head (Poglavnik) and founding member of the Croatian fascist Ustaše movement in the 1930s and later the leader of the Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state[1] [2] of Nazi Germany during World War II.
My version:Dr. Ante Pavelic ( July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) Croatian politician, head of state, and revolutionary. Dr. Ante Pavelic was the founder of " Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization" (UHRO) and later the leader - "Poglavnik" - of the Independent State of Croatia.
The Ustasa movement was NOT a "fascist" movement, if it was I'm sure they would have had no problem identifying themselves as that - this is moreso a branding from the YugoSerb perspective.
Taken from wikipedia's article on "fascism": The key attribute of fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc
Above I have written a quote coming from Pavelic himself, where he explains that he is completely against religious division within the state. The Ustasa movement had many Muslims in it, none of their traditions and or cultural practices were outlawed. The only people who were persecuted were Serbs who were against the state and Jews due to pressure coming from Germany. By 1943 NDH didn't want anything to do with the persecution of Jews and handed them to the Germans (not that that makes it any better but is proof that Croats didn't really want to be part of the Final solution), by 1942 Pavelic tried to appease to the Serbian minority in NDH by forming a Croatian Orthodox church - why, because any Orthodox church is a national church i.e Greek orthodox. Pavelic had no problem with Serbs who accepted Croatia as their homeland.
As for language - also widely acceptable in NDH. NDH had a "pravopis" which solidified the Croatian language after centuries of foreign adaptations etc, but it had nothing against other languages:
"9. Strane se riječi pišu:
1) kako se pišu u jeziku, iz kog potječu, na pr. Rousseau, Dumas, Goethe, Shakespeare; "
Translation : Foreign words are written: 1) how they are written in the language which they derive from i.e Rousseau, Dumas, Goethe, Shakespeare.
This is taken right from a proclamation made in Zagreb by Mile Budak in 1941 and is apart of the Law of NDH.
The only economic system that the NDH did not agree with was communism, which most of the modern world disagrees with and has proven time in and out to be inn affective.
AP1929 ( talk) 04:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
From article #1 : As the leader of the Ustaše he directly ordered, organized and conducted a campaign of terror against Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and communist Croats. It is possible that Pavelić's Ustaše regime was the most murderous Nazi puppet state in the whole of occupied Europe
If this isn't POV I don't know what is. Pavelic never directly ordered a 'campaign of terror' againse Serbs Jews Gypsies and Communist croats, and there is absolutely no proof of this. Anti-semetic laws were pushed upon Croatia by it's German ally, and everyone else that was prosecuted was "Enemy of the State", they weren't in those camps because of their nationality they were there because they were a possible threat to the existence of NDH - many Serbs lived normal lives in NDH - they were either a-political or found Croatia to be their homeland. Once again I disagree with the use of the term "puppet state" and it is a violation of wikipedia itself. Not to mention that that entire statement is simply crazy and doesn't hold any water.
The tales of Fra Majstorovic are simply irrelevant and have been proven to be complete nonsense i.e "Srbosjek", killing competitions which even with a margin of error don't make any mathematical sense. The Vatican deFacto recognized NDH and had a representative living in the country every year of it's existence.
From article #1 : In May 1945 Pavelić fled via Bleiburg to Austria, where he stayed for a few months before transferring to Rome, where he was hidden by members of the Roman Catholic Church (as is documented in de-classified US Intelligence documents
I'm pretty sure this was pulled frm "paveli-papers" which is not a credible source at all and is more of a conspiracy theory site built to deface Ustase and Pavelic more and more, and even this simple information is incorrect. Why ?
Ante Pavelic did not step foot in Rome when he went into exile, all this is is an attempt to tie Croatians to the Catholic church and make both of them look bad : the primary goal of Serbian radicals during the Croatian homeland war.
Pavelic went as following, according to Krizman and Pavelic's very own memoirs... (Not to mention that I know people that traveled with him as protection) ....
Zagreb ---> Slatina ---> Rogaska ----> Maribor ----> Leingreith----> Napulj----> Buenos Aires
AP1929 ( talk) 04:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
No where did I say "a few" enemies of the state were imprisoned, the numbers are clearly in the 100 thousand rage - and Jasenovac was a labor camp and doesn't meet the requirements of a concentration camp - at Jasenovac, death was an acceptable by-product, not camp policy. Thousands still lost their lives, and I am NOT denying that, I am just trying to bring correctness into the picture - or at least the "view from the other side" (even though I think I've been fairly neutral) so that non-Croats/Serbs/Muslims can come to a neutral conclusion and a better understanding of the situation. Pavelic became more of a figure mid-NDH, the people who had the actual power were known as the "rasovi" and you may want to look that up on the Axis History Forum, where actual specialists of World War Two come together to come to facts Vs fiction. The 'consensus' on this talk page are compliments of "Antifascist" in otherwords, communist 'croats' and even Serbs (look at their profiles - user Rjecina even has a little box that says "I am an anti-fascist therefor i do not like the NDH and the third reich), if you would like me to make the situation much different - by brining a pack of people who REALLY 'glorify' the man we are here debating about I will be glad to do so ! Try to not do so much research on NDH, rather research simply the terms that are being used to describe it and the people who are writing about it. AP1929 ( talk) 06:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
AP1929, for the sake of clarity please be consistent with your indenting. (I've tidied them up for you again.)
Take away Axis signatories and countries that were invaded by the Axis, and your list above begins to look very feeble. And when you're talking about the law, de facto doesn't come into it. Only de jure counts. Another point: "Croatia" is not acceptable shorthand for ISC/NDH. The latter, by German decree, also included the Bosnia and Hercegovina regions of Yugoslavia. Much as some Croats in Hercegovina may have welcomed the Nazis with open arms, the population of Bosnia certainly did not. And it speaks volumes that the NDH could not win recognition even from a Holy See that, at the time, was at least sanguine about nazism and fascism.
You have made some valid points. It might be best to concentrate on those first, before moving on to battles that you're never likely to win. Kirker ( talk) 11:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Edits of AP1929 and Stagalj (aka Velebit aka Purger aka ...) are very interesting. Now is possible to see difference in 1 article when we use POV croatian and POV serbian sources. I will use this versions of article every time when another editor in another controversial article use obscure books like his source. In our discussions all books are obscure because other editors are not having possibility to look this "sources".-- Rjecina ( talk) 17:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What are you saying ?! Go BACK TO SCHOOL, learn HOW to speak and write in ENGLISH, and THEN come to the here and debate ! For now I am putting my article back, edit war or not. AP1929 ( talk) 19:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
As for what is written below .... The fact that many people credit Kaputt does not make it true, it just goes to show how little they know, and how much research they actually did. The book is a work of fiction, end of story. AP1929 ( talk) 07:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed Pavelic's titles "Dr." and or "Poglavnik" from the article for neutral ground. Any future editing should be to this brushed up version of the article, which is very fair/neutral and unbias - we are speaking of events, and the life of this man - not Ustasa attrocities or Jasenovac - which are to be on their own page and mentioned on this one.
Also, I have fixed-up tenses and other grammatical errors, if anyone spots any others, please feel free to correct. Cheers. AP1929 ( talk) 08:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
In writing last lines I have become tired of writing new comments.
"Bring down Yugoslavia" - by any means, is the only goal of HNO - and this is outlined by Maks Luburic himself : "Nas stav je jasan : Rusiti svaku Jugoslaviju, Rusite je s Rusima i Amerikancima, s komunistima i nekomunistima i s antikomunistima: rusite ju sa svakim koji ju rusi; rusite ju dialektom rijeci i dinamitom ali ju rusite, jer i ako jedna drzava nema pravo obstajati jest samo i jedino Jugoslavija !"
-Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic
Translation: Our stance is loud and clear : To bring down every Yugoslavia, bring it down with Russians, Americans, with communists and anti-communists: bring it down with everyone else who is bringing it down; bring it down with words and with dynamite but bring it down, because if there is one country that doesn't have the right to exist, it is Yugoslavia !" - Maks Luburic AP1929 ( talk) 18:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
(I have reorganised my recent arguments with AP1929 into this separate section so that is easier for others to bypass if they wish!)
First, AP1929, when you discuss things here, please don't put your responses in the middle of other people's comments, as you seem to have done above. I assume the comments were made by Rjecina, who possibly did not sign off. But even if he did, your interruptions would still have made it very difficult for others to understand who was saying what.
Now... Your rewrite is a shoddy piece of work. I have already suggested it would be better if you introduced changes one by one, so that we could discuss, find consensus and move forward a step at a time. When you chuck away a whole load of work that had involved many people over a long period, you run the risk of having the whole of your contribution thrown away in a single "undo". And as it stands now, that is the best thing that could happen to it.
To suggest that P led a "major party" in 1923 or thereabouts is ridiculous. Stjepan Radić was the almost unquestioned voice of Yugoslavia's Croatians and P was a tiny figure in comparison.
Maček did not in any sense proclaim the NDH, he merely wrote a statement (read in a radio broadcast by someone else) asking Croatians to support the new authorities.
A Belgrade court sentenced P to death for, among other things, an agreement he reached with Mihailov. If you don't explain exactly why he got so severe a sentence, obviously anyone is entitled to ask. (Your reference to the other death sentence is a muddle. He was arrested and detained in Italy, but the death sentence was passed in France. That is far from clear from what you have written.)
Both P and Budak made statements explaining their crude plan to dispose of all Serbs in the NDH and to leave out all mention of such matters is just to whitewash the man. You turn to your Rasovi article to defend yourself, but where in that article - either as you wrote it, or as I edited it - is there any suggestion that Eugen Kvaternik, Maks Luburić, etc were beyond P's control? They were P's closest and most trusted aides and they were running a reign of terror. To imply that P had nothing to do with it is risible.
Why no mention of Vatican authorities giving P safe haven when he was en route to South America? You may not think that happened, but you know very well that documents were found in the files of America's CIA that say it did happen. Any neutral article should mention that claim, even if it is balanced by another conflicting claim.
Like Rjecina I could go on and on, but I've run out of stamina. Kirker ( talk) 02:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Of course Maček's anger about the NDH came after the NDH. (Well, also "during.") How could anyone have foreseen what depravities would accompany P's regime? I'm sorry, but your bland dismissal of all sources less than adulatory about P suggest to me that you have a very narrow perspective on the subject of this article. And it was simply wrong-headed to delete an article to which many had contributed in favour of your own hopelessly skewed version. Kirker ( talk) 14:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Kirker has put this better than I ever could. My current participation on Wikipedia is limited due to an influx of work with the end of the US screenwriters strike. That being said, my opinion is that this rewrite is absolutely terrible. There's a huge difference between adding balance, and adding bias. You've added bias, rather poorly I might add, and I'm tempted to simply revert you but cannot muster the energy to really care enough right now. Frankly, I'm stunned no one has gone back to the better version already.
Finally, do not insult other editors on my page either. Personal attacks say much more about the attacker than the subject. AniMate 04:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have returned the article to 'my' - much more factual version. This article should be a template for future editing. If non-Croat/Serb users see parts of the article which appear to be POV I would like them to present that particular part of the article here on the discussion page where we can come to a conclusion. I plan on (with the help of others) creating a Holocaust / Atrocities section on this page, however up until then, this article is much more factual and has many more references to actual events in Pavelic's life with dates included and political life post-NDH. I am trying to come to a clean/neutral encyclopedic article on Pavelic without the terms "puppet state" or "fascist" - which are both terms of political criticism - thus not POV - not to mention that term "puppet state" in relation to Croatia is against wiki rules and regulations. AP1929 ( talk) 00:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Article : 1889 – December 28, 1959) was the Head (Poglavnik) and founding member of the Croatian fascist Ustaše movement in the 1930s and later the leader of the Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state[1] [2] of Nazi Germany during World War II.
Suggested change : 1889 Dember 28, 1959) was a Croatian writer, politician, revolutionary and the founding member of the Croatian "Ustasa" movement - UHRO [Ustasa - Hrvatska Revolucionarna Organizacija] [Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization]and later the leader (Poglavnik) of the Independent State of Croatia, a minor Axis nation during the second World War. AP1929 ( talk) 07:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
For starters Kirker, it is 2008 and there is no such thing as "Yugoslavia" - I, and millions of Croatians globe-wide find people like you calling Croatia "Yugoslavia" today despicably offensive.
The Ustasa movement WAS a Revolutionary movement by all definitions, however the NDH was not a 'client' or 'puppet' state. Croatia only really had one policy that was 'determined' from outside, moreso imposed, and those were racial laws against Jews, which were abolished by 1943. In 1941, Croatia did NOT breach the rules of sovereign succession - it was created by the Croatian people at the will of the Croatian people - and both terms are nothing but terms of political criticism which does not make for a NEUTRAL article. AP1929 ( talk) 06:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand, when I want to edit something, it gets changed immediately without any type of consensus. Kirker has constantly agreed that the article 'isn't that great', and without me here it seems to be left at a standstill - I wonder why - maybe because the other editors are dreaming of "Yugoslavia". "Pavelic's quarrelsome nature" - like how is that encyclopedic ? "....he sulked in his seat" - "Pavelic fled through Austria to Rome where he was hidden by the Pope himself" - who writes this garbage ? The historical committee of "Yugoslavia" as Kirker calls it? OH - and BIG NEWS - guess what Kirker - I found Vladko Macek's proclamation of NDH and NDH newspapers with his proclamation on them - like I said and promised to present. A REFERENCE on this page - is to a website that claims that Fr. Majstorovic killed 'countless Serbs with his BARE HANDS". This article is a JOKE ! Where is the neutrality ? The two of you govern this page and have not a clue as to what Ustase were let alone what Croatia is - heck, one of the 'main editors' here just called Croatia "Yugoslavia" ! The wikipedia page on HITLER is more neutral than it is on Pavelic ! The references are nothing but Serbian/Zionist/Serbo-Communist "Yugoslav" propaganda. AP1929 ( talk) 06:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia.pdf
This is the same material but in a different format> http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia(n)-1.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Objective Truth ( talk • contribs) 04:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
It's inactive,so i removed it.
-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 13:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
New change : Dr. Ante Pavelic (July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) Croatian politician, head of state, and revolutionary.Ante Pavelic was the founder of "Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization" (UHRO) and later the leader - "Poglavnik" - of the Independent State of Croatia.
If anyone here thinks that Jozo Tomasevic's book about the Serbian Chetnik movement is a reliable source to brand NDH a "puppet" state - why don't they look at the actual reference and see what it says. A proclamation of NDH occurred without 'German/Italian bayonets' - Germany didn't even recognize Croatia until 5 days after it was proclaimed! AP1929 ( talk) 06:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
So I guess you could say you will be amongst the select few who were the first to note the mistake of labeling the NDH as a "puppet". AP1929 ( talk) 01:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
This matter was concluded long ago on the NDH article. Sources overwhelmingly refer to the NDH as a puppet state. Not a "member" state, not a "client" state, not a "satellite" state, but simply puppet state. Of course the "country" was a member of the Axis, but it was also most certainly a puppet state of Nazi Germany. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 08:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Kirker, with all due respect, please don't preach Wikipedia values. Objectively speaking, if one wanted to present an example of a typically "puppet state", I can't think of a better example. In other words, it would be very hard to find a country that was more thoroughly under the control of another. Furthermore, "puppet" state is not a pejorative, "puppet" is not an insult. It may be an insult to the national pride of those who support the state's existence and consider it "their own", but this does not qualify the term as "pejorative". The sources we have are hardly insignificant, and I can think of no better source for public usage of a scientific term than Britannica.
Also, I am fully aware of the politics in occupied Yugoslavia, and I do know that Aimone of Spoleto was given the title, I also know that Pavelić was in Mussolini's debt for his pre-war support, and that he was Italy's candidate for Croatian dictator. However, these nominal facts are irrelevant, as Italy exerted incomparably less influence over the country than Germany due to Italy's annexation of Dalmatia. The NDH (backed by Germany) and Italy were constantly in conflict over this issue. Italy was also getting weaker (diplomatically and militarily) by the month, being a far weaker country than Germany from the start. In short, "equal" influence between Italy and Germany was the original diplomatically conceived idea, but de-facto existed only in the first months, if even then. Also, one should note that when the state ceased to exist, it was a puppet state of Germany alone. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
22:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic did not hold any such title as "Head of the NDH" from 1941 to 1945. Pavelic's role as Poglavnik was a title which was held within the UHRO, and not directly a governmental position. As head of the UHRO he controlled the Glavni Ustaski Stan one of the main institutions in the NDH. He held the position of president of the government (premier) from 1941 to 1943. After this point he exited the government. Although heading the Ustashe may have been a more powerful position than president of the government, as the NDH didn't have a constitution it is impossible to say which of the two actually functioned as head of state. Pavelic's successor as president, Nikola Mandic, is the one who remained in Zagreb the longest and actually attempted to engage the Allies with the remaining Croatian state apparatus in the waning days of the war. -- Thewanderer ( talk) 23:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Head paragraph - the Croatian paramilitary separatist movement, the Ustaše. phrase is defunct. Ustashe were from the very beginning an illegal terrorist organization supported only by Nazi Germany and the fascist Italy governments and later - a nazi/fascist organization. Replaced citation needed by a credible reference
Removed bizarre text about Ustashe dignitaries
In September of 1942, Pavelić traveled to the Eastern Front along with Jure Francetić where he met Hitler at Vinnytsia on September 23.[20] The following day the two met Croatian legionnaires serving in the 369th Reinforced Croatian Infantry Regiment. Pavelić met with general Friedrich Paulus and decorated several of the legionnaires with military awards.[21]
This is an encyclopedia biography - not a Pavelic's personal diary. -- 72.75.24.245 ( talk) 00:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Good work. It reads a lot better. Kirker ( talk) 22:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be stated explicitly that Pavelić together with the Roman Catholic prelate Aloysius Stepinac were responsible for devising (or at least pursued) the ignominious "convert or die" policy. __ meco ( talk) 16:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Look, its simple: you think Yugoslav sources are POV, the vast majority of the world does not. Accordingly, I too do not give a damn about your own personal standards about sources. Also, I dare claim that not a single historian on the face of this planet would describe the NDH as a religiously tolerant state. You also accept that forced conversions took place, but try and display the Ustaše in a tolerant light. Do you have any idea how that sounds?
Further, proving that the Ustaše were lenient towards one minority religion, and aimed to exterminate the other does not really do much to prove your point. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
08:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I see this article is still a piece of junk, and I love how all of the side bar information is mine, including the photo, but all my other contributions are less valuable than those of the Yugoslav user DIREKTOR. What is pro-fascist now ? Does that still mean the NDH was or wasn't fascist, reads funny. How can the Ustasa movement or the NDH be fascist when fascism is anti-christian and is intolerant of various faiths? Fascists might support as civic religion, which is outlined by wikipedia itself, and usually involved imperialism. Can someone please enlighten me as to how the NDH was either of the two. How can Croatia be a state of Germany? Pavelic was not part of the "pure" party of rights, such a party exists today, but he was only part of the Croatian Party of Right. Land gain? AP1929 ( talk) 05:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I am coming late to this discussion but can you AP1929 enlighten me ? You are saying that fascism is anti-christian and because of that Ustaše are not fascists. If this statement is true then Mussolini is not fascist and National Fascist Party is not fascist party ???? -- Rjecina ( talk) 18:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Problem 1: the terms "fascist" and "puppet state" do not make for a neutral encyclopedic article.
Problem 2: Pavelić would later cede parts of Dalmatia and some Adriatic islands to Italy in exchange for being allowed to take all of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina into the NDH.
Pavelic did not cede parts of Dalmatia to Italy, Pavelic did however reinstate Italy's Adriatic border in accord with the Treaty of Rappallo between Italy and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, these and the Rome Accords were however void as of September of 1943 - after the defeat of Mussolini. The idea that Pavelic did so to gain Bosnia is insane and incorrect as there was no question as to Bosnia being part of Croatia at that point in time. Bosnia went into the Hapsburg empire with Croatia and was a region in that empire as were other Croatian regions: Slavonia, Dalmatia etc. There were absolutely no agreements made in regards to Croatia's borders prior to the Rome Agreements - the Croatian people proclaimed their state on their ethnic and historic boundaries, and discussed it's Italian border months later.
Problem 3: after the Axis powers had agreed to formation of the Independent State of Croatia, Pavelić returned to Zagreb and became leader of the State throughout its existence.
Another weak attempt by communists to make the NDH seem more and more fictional than factional. The Axis did not agree to any formation of a Croatian state, if they had done so, they would have recognized it on the day of proclamation, and the state borders would have been discussed. The fact the Italy and Germany were the first amongst Axis nations - and key factors - to recognize the state days after proclamation proves this as do the Rome Agreements. The Axis DID agree to attack Yugoslavia, however, there is no proof of them agreeing to forming a Croatian state, there is not one document, not one anything.
Problem 4: Official policy against the Serbs was extermination, expulsion, and conversion to the Roman Catholicism. This is completely unfounded and untrue. I would like to see one single document from this time which would indicate this.
AP1929 ( talk) 05:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Problem 1: Actually, it is also the opinion of wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a forum, and you are not a historian or an archivist, simply a pawn with too much time on his hands willing to misinform the general public in protection of your communist ideals and family.
Problem 2 Pavelic did not give Italy anything. The fact that you say he gave them and then the sentence after say that he had to is contradictory. Pavelic could not be replaced months after the creation of NDH, note, the Rome Agreements took place months after establishment. The last part of your argument is sheer idiocy at it's best.
Problem 3 Actually, if Germany would have had it's true way, a Yugoslavia would have existed, and that is why Yugoslavia was Germany's first option. Nedic's Serbia was controlled by the Germans - militarily, as was Montenegro, whereas NDH was not. The border discussion took place months after either of those two entities deJure recognized Croatia, therefor your argument is completely void. Talks with Macek took place long before the proclamation of NDH, it was Germany's third best interest to keep intact a "Banovina Hrvatska" which existed within Yugoslavia in 1939. As of April 10th, 1941, there was a Croatia and it's leader was undisputed, even Vlatko Macek recognized him and the state and called his followers to do the same. He did this via radio and print media. Therefor, the delay in recognition has nothing to do with who the Germans or Italians wanted to install as the head of state. If the Germans and Italians truly formed the NDH, there would have been no talks in regards to borders, they would have been implemented from the first day. If the Germans and Italians truly formed the NDH, the German military would not have been under local command and the Italians would not have had to sign an agreement in regards to UV troops entering the Italian occupation zone which was in place for the first few months so that the newly created state could get to its feet.
Problem 4 Jasenovac - the place, and dr. Mile Budak are not documents, I asked you for legal documents - they exist for Jews, why do they not exist for Serbs ? Unfortunately you can no provide me with any, as you can not even properly argue with me - which makes sense I mean it would be quite disappointing if you could. AP1929 ( talk) 09:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
AP1929 ( talk) 01:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Whatever, your list of fascist Bosniaks proves nothing. As I pointed out very plainly: this is all besides the point. Your thesis that the Ustaše were not fascist because they "supported multiple religions" is complete and utter nonsense. Even if I conceded all your points, even if I said, yes, "Bosniaks were Croats during World War II", yes, "the NDH was a religiously tolerant state" (LoL), even then what is your point!? Are you saying that religious tolerance makes the country "non-fascist", what!? If granting Muslims religious freedom is a mark of "non-fascists", can you point out a fascist state that denied Muslims their religious freedom? -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 08:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
User:AP1929, if I understood you correctly (in spite of my apparent lack of reading skills), you believe that the
Independent State of Croatia was not a fascist state, and would like to edit the article to that effect, am I right? Well then, please present published sources to that effect or stop using this page as a forum. Remember, though, your sources must be in accordance with Wikipedia policy: they must be neutral,
WP:NPOV (no Croatian radical nationalist crap), and they must be in accordance with
WP:V.
Fire away. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
00:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, and some of us are serious users and others are weekend-editors, etc... I am not interested in your opinion. Wikipedia is not a forum. I do not care about your ideological views. I will not "give" you anything, you can keep your own little "theories" for your publisher (LoL). Your "gun", it is still very much silent on the sources front, whereas on the forum front it never stopped spewing. Where is the (published, reliable, scholarly) source that states the NDH was not a fascist state? You see, I can find you about twenty (published, reliable, scholarly) sources that state it was indeed a fascist state.
Found all this in 10 minutes on Google. I think that I actually could find twenty published sources describing the NDH as a fascist state, if I took the time. But wait, let me guess Ante: its all Jewish/Serb propaganda directed at world-domination, am I right? xD -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
No one asked me? I KNOW no one "asked me", if you had the mental capability you might have figured out that I'm posting this to show how plentiful and abundant the "pro-fascist" sources are. Oh, and I have to say you are priceless! :) I can not believe you're actually claiming Britannica is biased?! Those poor professional historians and encyclopedia scholars, they've been deluded by Serbian propaganda, right? They should have seen through the yugocommunist-serbochetnik crap they've been using as primary sources. Looks like a lifetime of experience and historical study is insufficient to see through propaganda. Luckily old Ante is here to tell us about The TruthTM, aren't you A.P.? How do you know this about the bibliographies of Britannica and the two other works? Can you show us their bibliography, I didn't notice a link? What? are we supposed to take your word for the unreliability of the authors' sources?
The level of your indoctrination is unprecedented in my experience. However, let us concentrate for now on the fact that you have not yet presented a single professional opinion that even hinted to the possibility that the NDH was somehow not a fascist state.
Not that it would make much difference, though. Even if you did somehow manage to find some loon out there with a degree that's as indoctrinated as you are, he'd be outnumbered ten to one. There is absolutely no way you will ever be able to remove the epithet "fascist" from the NDH on this encyclopedia (or on any encyclopedia, for that matter).
Sigh. I asked you to please stop using this page as a forum on the NDH. This page is for discussing changes to the article. Your changes are completely inconceivable without sources. A discussion (without sources) on this issue is an empty chat-room-like debate. I will respond only to sources you may present (everyone else will probably ignore even that), any unfounded controversial edits to the article will be reverted. Edit-warring will be reported. You should also know that removing pointless chatter from the article talkpage is encouraged (in accordance with WP:NOTFORUM). I'll be sure to read it first, though: it may be useful for my psychiatry studies, as well a being among the funniest stuff one can expect to hear around Wikipedia. Have fun. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 23:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The fact that my level of indoctrination is unprecedented is because I actually know about NDH. Not every NDH entry in every piece of literature calls NDH a fascist state - the problem lies within the actual minimal knowledge people have about the politics, geopolitics, demographics and economics of NDH. If anyone were to understand that, they could logically - without any sources on NDH itself, merely just on fascism, could determine that it was not in fact fascist. It was a very national, authoritative state; even then more so due to the circumstances Croats were surrounded by thanks to Versailles, but according to logical breakdown in comparisons with real self-proclaimed fascist state, NDH does not meet the standard. AP1929 ( talk) 17:36, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Again old story and old editorial style. Statements like "Pavelić's Ustaše regime was arguably the most murderous, in relation to its size, in Axis-occupied Europe" are 100 % against wikipedia editorial style. I can maybe agree with that because in NDH around 10 % of population is killed during WWII, but it is still against wikipedia editorial style.
We can all agree that Pol Pot regime is most murderous, in relation to its size during 20 century, but we are without this sort of statements. I have not deleted statement, only because of my other disputes.-- Rjecina ( talk) 06:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
'...Around twenty-four concentration camps were set up in Croatia, the most deadly of them being at Jasenovac where Allied estimates prove that 750,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were murdered...'
Actually, if one goes to the Wikipedia article for 'Ustashi,' there is an exhaustive discussion of the total number of deaths at Jasenovac.
The gist is that just what that number would be is quite uncertain -- but '750,000' is clearly at the high end. The range starts around 60,000. Certainly it's inaccurate to claim that the higher figure has been 'proven' to be accurate. It could easily be eight times the true figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.248.92 ( talk) 06:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
"Pavelic's Ustashe regime was the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe?" Who is writing these articles, Chetnik Youth? This whole paragraph (all the way to Malaparte quotes) should be deleted for two reasons: 1) Useless, non-encyclopedical garbage that can be used for propaganda only 2) Even if you ignore that you can see how badly is that text incorporated with the rest of the article (i.e. you just can't put such paragraph on the end of the article. Articles should end with place, time and circumstances of death info). - Yes my croatian brother, you are right, Pavelic was patriot and a good man, and all the Croatians loved him, and still love him.
Snowspinner ????
First you revert kucan and drnovsek articles and than you just revert this article not because of the size but because you didn`t like that I was wright when I said pavelic was fascist.
-- Avala
For me it is unexpected. I always fix if I am able to.
Well I took those pics for Belgrade from German wiki and you know that they use ADSL with 3mb/s!
:D-- Avala 15:25, 14 May 2004 (UTC)
There is a person claiming as if
The person's identification - 72.139.243.79 (IP Address)
To disjudge those who might trust this person - here are the quotes worth of reading:
In April 1941 separatist Croats of the fascist terrorist organization 'Ustasha' set up in Zagreb an Independent Croat regime with Dr. Ante Pavelic as fuehrer, or "Poglavnik," and with Marshal Slavko Kvaternik as minister of war.
The new state, organized on strictly fascist and authoritarian lines, excelled quickly by the special ruthlessness and cruelty with which it persecuted, and partially exterminated the large Serb minority and the small Jewish population...
"Encyclopedia Britannica, 1943 - Book of the year," page 215, Entry: 'Croatia'
Slavko Kvaternik explained [in a radio program on April 10, 1941, the day the 'Independent State of Croatia' was formed] how a pure Croatia should be built - by forcing one third of the Serbs to leave Croatia, one third to convert to Catholicism, and one third to be exterminated. Soon Ustasha bands initiated a bloody orgy of mass murder of Serbs unfortunate enough not to have converted or left Croatia on time.
The enormity of such criminal behavior shocked even the conscience of German commanders, but Pavelic had Hitler's personal support for such actions which resulted in the loss of the lives of hundreds of thousands of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina.
'Worldmark Encyclopedia of the Nations,' Europe, edition 1995, page 91, entry: 'Croatia.'
The Orthodox recipe of Ante Pavelic, Ustashi leader and Croatian Fuehrer, reminds one of the religious wars in [their] bloodiest aspects: one-third must become Catholic, one-third must leave the country and one-third must die. The last item was executed. When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three-quarters of a million.
Herman Naubacher, "Sonderauftrag Sudosten 1940-1945. Bericht eines fliegenden Diplomate," Goettingen, 1956
In Croatia the indigenous fascist regime set about a policy of 'racial purification' that went beyond even Nazi practices. Minority groups such as Jews and Gypsies were to be eliminated, as were the Serbs: it was declared that one-third of the Serbian population would be deported, one-third converted to Roman Catholicism, and one third liquidated. ... Ustasha bands terrorized the countryside. The partial collaboration of the Catholic clergy in these practices continues to be a component of Serb-Croat suspicion.
'Encyclopaedia Britannica,' Edition 1991, Macropedia, Vol. 29, page 1111.
Nonpartisan sources agree that mass genocide was authorized by the state of Croatia. They concur the state instigated, planned, and executed masses against the Serbian Orthodox minority... and that the Catholic clergy approved, led, or failed to denounce these massacres. The Croats' collective hatred of the Orthodox Serbs was explicit in folk sayings such as ["Srbe o vrbe" -] "Serbs to the willows [hang the Serbs]."
...
By June 1941, signs on public establishments read, 'NO SERBS, JEWS, NOMADS ['Gypsies'] AND DOGS ALLOWED."
Helen Fein, "Accounting for Genocide - Victims and Survivors of the Holocaust," The Free Press, New York, Edition 1979, pages 102, 103.
Even the most extraordinary massacres in the darkest era of history would not soil its name - Croatia... Kill, kill, scream the Ustashi against Serbs. And they cut their heads off and throw bodies away into the Sava River which flows slowly and gravely in the direction of Belgrade...
"Go back to your motherland, go back to your motherland."
"Neither Fascists nor Nazi have the remotest resemblance to the Ustashi, they are a fauna absolutely extraordinary and strange..."
Alfio Russo, "Revoluzione in Jugoslavia," Roma 1944
For now I began to get news from Croatia that told of slowly rising tide of murders, of unrepeatable atrocities, of massacres of defenceless Serbs by berserk-mad Croatians and by [fascist] Moslems in Bosnian Croatia. In the little back parlors of trusty men, the tales were whispered. I could not believe a quarter of them. Unfortunately, I was soon to know that they were a weak understatement of the truth. Men were to arrive in Dubrovnik itself, hung with strings of Serbian tongues and with bowls of Serbian eyes for sale.
Ruth Mitchell, "The Serbs Choose War," Doubleday, Doran, 1943, page 148
Jasenovac [was] the largest concentration camp in Croatia. Jasenovac was in fact a complex of several subcamps, in close proximity to each other, on the bank of the Sava River... established in August 1941 and was dismantled only on April 1945...
Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime... The living conditions in the camp were extremely severe... A particularly cruel regime, and unbelievably cruel behavior by the Ustashe guards...
The acts of murder and of the cruelty in the camp reached their peak in the late summer of 1942, when tens of thousands of Serbian villagers were deported to Jasenovac from the area of the fighting against the partisans in the Kozara Mountains.
'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust,' Vol. 2, page 739.
In the concentration camp at Jasenovac, on the night of August 29, 1942, orders were issued for executions. Bets were made as to who could liquidate the largest number of inmates. Peter Brzica cut the throats of 1,360 prisoners with a specially sharp butcher's knife. Having been proclaimed the prizewinner of the competition, he was elected King of the Cutthroats. A gold watch, a silver service, and a roasted sucking pig and wine were his other rewards...
Avro Manhattan, "The Vatican's Holocaust," 1986, page 48.
Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999 Page 500
In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children, from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described what happened next.
The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.
"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event. They were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered in this fashion"
The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in
Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945 Stuttgart, 1964, page 101
"The horrors that the Ustashi have committed over the Serbian small girls is beyond all words. There are hundreds of photographs confirming these deeds because those of them who have survived the torture: bayonet stabs, pulling of tongues and teeth, nails and breast tips - all this after they were raped. Survivors were taken in by our officers and transported to Italian hospitals where these documents and facts were gathered."
(Commander of the Italian Sassari Division in Croatia, 1941)
"Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."
(Report to Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler from the GeheimeStaatspolizei - GESTAPO - dated February 17, 1942)
Hermann Heubacher, the German Minister to Belgrade (1941) Hitler's personal assistant for the South-East Europe and the Balkan affairs in Zagreb (1942-1944), a witness at Nuremberg Trial in his book
Sonderauftrag Suedost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten,2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957
page 31.
Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegensaetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven und Muselmanen. Als ich einmal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete, di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic, erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.
WENN FUEHRENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GESCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE UEBERTREIBUNG. AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.
Translation of the capital lettering only:
When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three quarter of a million.
End of translation
Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte mir Adolf Hitler:
"Ich habe dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minderheit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"
page 18.
Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Racheund Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Serbentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Weltgeschichte: ..... -- Purger 16:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Everyking, it's unclear to me what the long paragraph about the book accomplishes. If the eye-basket is really a figment of the author's imagination, then don't mention it, otherwise readers can draw the conclusion that it was a normal feature for writers to go around publishing fabricated horror stories about the poor old innocent person. -- Shallot 00:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Huh? Don't lecture me, I just made a few minor fixes to the paragraph. I have no opinion on whether it should be included, I've never even heard of the book. Everyking 00:23, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Misha Glenny, The Balkans, Penguin Books 1999 Page 500
In July 1941, for example, some 500 Serbs, including women and children, from Glina, a small town 65 kilometres south-east of Zagreb, were arested and shot dead. As a consequence, the peasants from the surrounding villages hid themselves in the woods. The Nuremberg Tribunal described what happened next.
The Ustase offered an amnesty if they would convert to Roman Catholicism. A majority of peasants agreed and returned to their villages.
"The mass conversion was organized and the peasants duly arrived at the Serbian Orthodox church in Glina. 250 people turned up for the event. They were greeted by six members of Ustase. When all were inside, the chuch doors were locked shut. The peasants were forced to lie on the ground and the six Ustase begin hitting them with spiked clubs. More Ustase appeared and one after another every single peasant was murdered in this fashion"
The quote above comes from the Nuremberg Trials, quoted in
Ladislaus Hory and Martin Broszat Der kroatische Ustascha-Staat, 1941-1945 Stuttgart, 1964, page 101
"The horrors that the Ustashi have committed over the Serbian small girls is beyond all words. There are hundreds of photographs confirming these deeds because those of them who have survived the torture: bayonet stabs, pulling of tongues and teeth, nails and breast tips - all this after they were raped. Survivors were taken in by our officers and transported to Italian hospitals where these documents and facts were gathered."
(Commander of the Italian Sassari Division in Croatia, 1941)
"Increased activity of the bands is chiefly due to atrocities carried out by Ustasha units in Croatia against the Orthodox population. The Ustashas committed their deeds in a bestial manner not only against males of conscript age, but especially against helpless old people, women and children. The number of the Orthodox that the Croats have massacred and sadistically tortured to death is about three hundred thousand."
(Report to Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler from the GeheimeStaatspolizei - GESTAPO - dated February 17, 1942)
Hermann Heubacher, the German Minister to Belgrade (1941) Hitler's personal assistant for the South-East Europe and the Balkan affairs in Zagreb (1942-1944), a witness at Nuremberg Trial in his book
Sonderauftrag Suedost 1940-1945, Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten,2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957
page 31.
Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegensaetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven und Muselmanen. Als ich einmal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete, di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic, erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.
WENN FUEHRENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GESCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE UEBERTREIBUNG. AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.
Translation of the capital lettering only:
When the leading men of the Ustashi movement are stating that they have slaughtered one million Serbs (including infants, children, women and aged) this in my opinion is a self-praising exaggeration. According to the reports that have reached me, my estimate is that the number of those defenseless slaughtered is some three quarter of a million.
End of translation
Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte mir Adolf Hitler:
"Ich habe dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minderheit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"
page 18.
Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Racheund Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Serbentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Weltgeschichte: ..... -- Purger 16:46, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394929
"They started with one huge husky peasant who began singing an old historicalheroic song of the Serbs. They put his head on the table and as he continued to sing they slit his throat and then the next squad moved in to smash his skull. 'This is what you are all getting' an USTASA (Croatian Nazi) screamed. USTASE surrounded us. ..Then the slaughter began...Within a matter of minutes we stood in a lake of blood."
Ljubo Jadnak, Survivor, Yugoslavia
"This State, our country is only for Croatians, and not for anyone else. There are no ways and means which we Croatians will not use to make our country truly ours and to clean it of all Jews and orthodox Serbs. All those who came to our country 300 years ago must disappear. We do not hide this our intention."
Milovan Zanic, Minister of Justice, Croatia
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395075
The crimes of the Ustasha documented by the Zagreb indictment included the murder of hundreds of specifically named Serbs, Gypsies, and Jews; the creation of the Jasenovac concentration camp, where hundreds of thousands of individuals were killed; and the following specific cases of barbarism:
1. tying families by their hands with wire, forcing them into a pit, and cracking their skulls with sledgehammers;
2. operating a crematorium at Jasenovac into which persons were flung alive;
3. herding Serbs into their Orthodox churches ... and then butchering them with knives;
4. medical experiments into the perseverance of human organisms;
5. slitting open the bellies of pregnant women;
6. drinking blood from the slashed throats of the victims;
7. inducing cannibalism among camp inmates;
8. mutilation of the living and the dead;
9. raping schoolgirls before their mothers;
10. catching infants on bayonets;
11. inventing new methods of torture;
12. throwing burning lime on the living in execution pits;
13. feeding food laced with caustic soda to starving children.38
The evidence against Artukovic also included, in addition to evidence about his role in the above activities of the Ustasha, various affidavits from witnesses who had been in a position to observe his activities during World War II.
C. Malaparte, Kaputt, page 266 Nortwestern University Press, Evanston, IL
A basket of oysters
While he spoke, I gazed at a wicker basket on the Poglawnik's desk. The lid was raised and the basket seemed to be filled with mussels, or shelled oysters - as they are occasionally displayed in the windows of Fortnum and Mason in Piccadilly in London. Casertano looked at me and winked, 'Would you like a nice oyster stew?'
'Are they Dalmatian oysters?' I asked the Poglawnik
Ante Pavelic removed the lid from the basket and revealed the mussels, the slimy and jelly-like mass, and he said smiling, with that tired good-natured smile of his,
'It is a present from my loyal ustashis. Twenty kilos of human eyes.'
Pavelic's regime was clearly not "the most murderous regime in the whole that time occupied Europe". In fact, Ustasha murders and crimes were nowhere near as organized as German or even Soviet/Allied ones. Most of the people comitting these crimes were uneducated thugs. Gestapo certainly had more organized methods of torture, while concentration camps in Germany took far more lives than those in Croatia.
Why did the above pro-Croat Ustasha supporter not have the courage to leave his name or username, before spouting his pro-Ustase rhetoric??
No courage, I guess, just like his fascist murderous countrymen, the Ustasha??? Brandubh Blathmac 15:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
And, as has already been said, literature and poetry have no place as sources of an encyclopedia article.
Having had a private audience with the Pope during WWII when his state was slaughtering hundreds of thousands of non Catholic people, and given his own personal rescue by the Roman Catholic church after WW2 and the relationship between his political party and his state with the RC church, Ante Pavelić is certainly Catholic enough to be categorized as such in the categories listed at the end of the page.
To do otherwise is to be dishonest in every sense.
Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
NOTE: DEMIURGE REVISIONISM ON THE PROWL -- JUST LIKE WITH DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN USA; PRE-CODE MOVIES AND ROMAN CATHOLIC PRODUCTION CODE OF CENSORSHIP IN MOVIES IN 20TH CENTURY, ETC.!!
Brandubh Blathmac 02:57, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The latest edit now has it as 'semi national socialist/fascist' which is ungainly and confusing. What is a semi-nazi? Personally I would keep it simple and just go for the most general term - fascist, though if people feel we need to be more specific there is clerical fascist which fits them like a glove. Bengalski 16:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
This is conjecture and as such has no place in Wikipedia. The fact that the author cannot cite definite numbers and uses generalisations: "close to one third Serbs, even if not more." weakens the text. For this reason alone it should be removed.
The extent of this campaign against the Serbs was a real genocide, because they aimed to exterminate a third of them, expel another third, and Catholicize another. The Ustaše succeeded in reaching their first goal - they exterminated close to one third Serbs, even if not more.
What place has this discussion of literature and poetic descriptions of Ustashe activities got in a encyclopedic article about the leader of the Ustashe? If it belongs anywhere (which is quite questionable) it belongs under the Ustashe entry.
Utashe atrocities made a strong impression on literature and poetry. "Basket of Oysters", a chapter of Curzio Malaparte's novel Kaputt, depicted Ustashe's widespread practice of gouging out the eyes of Serbs. In Jama ("The Pit"), Ivan Goran Kovačić wrote of how Serbs were wrapped in barbed wire and dropped into pits. Other works inspired by the Ustashe were Oljača's Kozara and Svetina's Volčiči ("The Wolf Puppies").
What did Chetniks do???? So innocent ay....two sides to every story ...flip the coin.... I think more Croats died by Serbs, most is hidden in POV....look at Bosnia my friend...who did the mass killing there
A lot that is written about Pavelic is fiction and propagnada. Yes he was a Nazi but more like a Nazi Puppet. He had little power. This guy just did as ordered by nazis. But wait a minute didnt most of Europe..wasnt just him. One has to remember the Ustashe and Ante Pavelic were a ""minority"" of Croats who fought alongside the Nazis. ""Most Croats"" and Tito himself fought against the Nazis. It hurts me when people label Croats and single them out ---but forget all the other countries who had nazi forces and in much bigger numbers. WW1--- WW2 was a dark time in history but the truth needs to be told and not hyped up by ignorance. ANTE PAVELIC was anti his own people ...he disliked the Dalmatian Coast (Croats too) and offered them to Italy...so i wouldnt say he was very Croat in any shape or form. Pavelic was just a puppet on a string...but so was most of Europe..including Italy France Hungary Estonia Serbia etc...
The claim that Pavelic was just a puppet rates with similar ones like "all of the Nazis were just listening to what Hitler ordered". And why would you need a lot of power to commit murders or genocide? -- Dultz 18:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
..........stop blowing Serbian POV on this page............ half of what you say is untrue............Pavelic was a puppet...he had no power to do such things.....just propaganda and that has no room on wikipedia.... War is war...killings went on all sides...no good guys in war...wake up Evergreen Montenegro1 03:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
If someone is a puppet, then they should do the job properly by killing their victims straightforwardly, and not make them die in agony and in a humiliating way such as by forcing them to drink battery acid or plucking their eyes out and selling them on the market as 'good luck charms'.
Why is there no mention of of the fact that Ante Pavelic had a Serbian bodyguard. This bodyguard was with him right up until Pavelic fled to Argentina. Some of the Ustashe troops where in fact Serbs by blood. These are known facts and should be mentioned. Source....some books i have read while living in Yugoslavia ...very unbias books as it was time of Yugoslvia. Title ...it was so long ago...but one might check with historians.
This statment (coming from "some books") is close to those that claim that most of the Nazis were Jews, so it was Jews who killed the Jews, don't blame the Germans! Bollocks. -- Dultz 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Also the Partizan football club in Belgrade was run for many years by former Croat President Franjo Tudjman...he was president when the club was founded in around 1945 and spent many years involved with the club.
And what should this tell us? I don't understand. -- Dultz 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Evergreen Montenegro1 03:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic was kind but nieve because he agreed to Italy if Hitler won the war the region of Istria and Dalmatia would be given to Italy. Even though Ustahes did Kill a lot of serbs it wasn't that much as the serbs clamied. Franjo Tudman had a look at how many Serbs were killed during the Second world war he got a total of 38,000. But the Ustashe army treated most allied prisoner with kindness. -- Marbus2 5 11:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
First of all i read the artical and somewhere there it saids that there was a lack of Documented evdience to show how many serbs were killed by the Ustase. They say a estimate of 25,000 to 1,000,000. But ask yourself where did the estimates come from, Probley from the communist of Yugoslavia who won the war which was lead by Tito Brojz and we know how much propaganda the communist Yugoslavs have put on Croatia after World War 2 and onwards. -- Marbus2 5 13:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Right, would you like to deny
Holocaust for the record as well? And please, brush up on your English, or otherwise don't contribute. Thanks, --
C-c-c-c
20:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
The holocaust is also full of properganda 1,000,000 Jews died in Poland in a Concentration Camp, Yeah right how could 1,000,000 jews die and there is no mention on how many other national's died. Its as if their were no other nationalitys in the concentration camp accept jews. Now honostly could have 1,000,000 jews died in poland or was it form all diffrent nationalitys. -- Marbus2 5 10:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, Pavelic was kind man.... and Hitler worked for the Red Cross. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.105.48.93 ( talk) 12:11, August 21, 2007 (UTC)
I see some anon editors have been engaged in revert-warring, to the point of removing the {{NPOV}} tag. I've no particular opinion on who's right or wrong here, but compromise needs to be reached.
Pretty much every reputable source (including Britannica, Great Soviet and Brockhaus) calls him a fascist leader. The Nazi thing seems a bit like OR – "Nazi" is mostly reserved for the NSDAP people themselves. See e.g. Ion Antonescu. -- Elephantus 23:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I've requested semi-protection for this page. Let's see what happens. But please, can we resolve this here rather than engaging in revert wars? - Ali-oops ✍ 14:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
A request has been made that this article be unprotected. Is it ready for unprotection? I don't see a lot of talking going on over the past few days, but then it was a weekend. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 23:32, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is a wiki. Pages can't stay protected forever, particularly when there's no discussion toward resolving the disputes that caused the protection in the first place. I'd rather just block bad actors and let the rest of us get on with building an encyclopedia. · Ka t efan0 (scribble) 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
(UTC)
NOTICE: 64.18.16.251 and a number of other users have been identified as sock puppets of Purger. See here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Purger. -- Zmaj 09:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Kovacic, himself Croat, never mentioned ustashe or Serbs in his poem "Jama". He was talking about innocent victims of war and their inhumane executors that were present on all sides with nationalist hatred during the WW2. Not to mention that the poet himself was killed by the Serb nationalist chetniks! This shameful abuse of a great poem for Serbian nationalist propaganda is a disgrace for Wikipedia. Things like this should be moderated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.152.217.129 ( talk • contribs) 09:46, 17 Jul 2006 (UTC)
Kovacic did not talk about 'innocent victims of war and their inhumane executors that were present on all sides' - he was talking about Ustashi - even when not mentioning them. Kovacic was killed by Tito's henchmen - the same way they killed Mladen Stojanovic. Then he invented stories about chetniks - as their killers.-- 72.75.55.21 21:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree that mentioning of Kovacic is not really appropriate in this place. No nationalities nor ideologies were mentioned in the poem. I would like to remind people that Italians made many crimes in Istria and Primorje region, and there isn't much talk about it. I see that as preferring Italia ahead of Croatia and Slovenia by most of the world. That occurs in changing names that exist in both Italian and Croatian/Slovenian versions to Italian, and decrementing crimes made by Italian fascists which consequences are still visible in many villages. Kovacic's poem "Jama", is a poem about war crime and death. It doesn't say who are the victims and who are murderers. They could be Ustashe, Chetnics, Italian fascists or partisans taking revenge. Crime and death are universal. Martin 17:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
I understand why people would call Ante a war criminal (in my opinion, deservedly so). However, the Wikipedia Category:War Criminals is for people convicted of war crimes (or at least so the description on its page says). Therefore, if Ante was never convicted of war crimes, neither during his life nor posthumously, he should not be put into that category, though I see nothing wrong in saying somewhere in the article that he fits the conventional definition of a war criminal pretty well. -- int19h 07:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic got the Death penalty - he was convicted by the Partisan court. Ante was convicted; the difference is that punishment wasn't executed. -- PaxEquilibrium 18:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
He was never convicted in any court. Show trials in dictatorships without rule of law, and withouth any jurisdiction over Pavelić, who lived in a different country and was a citizen of a different state (Croatia), doesn't count. North Corea may declare Bush to be a war criminal, but it's only the POV of North Corea and no basis for categorizing him as such. Shgoals 02:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic was the leader of Ustase, but the Ustase were not national-socialists (who were the German NSAPD party led by Adolf Hitler) nor were they fascists (who were Italian led by Mussolini). The Ustase were a nationalist party (movement) and their agenda was that of Croatian nationalists (establishment of the Croatian state). However, they did not share the same ideology as the NSAPD or the Italian Fascists. Their ideology would find a counterpart in Franco's Spain, perhaps. Lusich 04:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Clearly this article has heavy POV problems, including both Anti-Pavelić and Anti-Croatian (denying the Croatian people the right to independence) as well as pro-communist/pro-Serbian bias. Shgoals 02:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness, Ustasha should be referred to as a political and nationalist organization, in lieu of "terrorist" organization as written in this article.
In comparison, the Nazi Party of Germany was just that: a political/nationalist party, not a terrorist organization.
The reference to the NDH (Independant State of Croatia as a "puppet Nazi(German) regime is likewise totally off-base. As the Croatians are culturally and historically a part of Western Europe, they are also the traditional allies of the Germanic peoples. After being forcibly pushed into the previous "Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenes", the Croatians were primed for a nationalist movement.
I have revised the article with a more neutral standpoint for people new/researching the subject. I have removed terms such as "terrorist organization, puppet regime, etc, only to have the article changed again to a more opinionated, Serbian perspective.
The term terrorist organiztion needs to be left out indefinitely; it is a biased term for a neutral arcticle.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center likewise is not an unbiased source of information. They do have an agenda, and hence should not be used for factual information.
We are going around in circles here. Until this article is free and clear of opinionated statements, is should not be considered as a legitimate source of information for any person looking for information regarding Ante Pavelic. The utter lack of neutrality, incorrect historical statements, and the use of agenda-driven entities for information, have rendered this article unreadable to a person genuinely researching the subject. Nathraq 18:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)nathraq
I have previously corrected only POV and opinionated statements in this article, that seemed to have been a problem for you. Why would I go about wasting my time and energy fixing historical inaccuracies, only to have the page switching back and forth between edits by certain people with an slanted view of the subject? Until Wiki gets involved, and semi-blocks this article after POV and bias oriented statements have been removed, I will leave it alone. Or maybe a person with a more commanding knowledge of the English language other than the person who added statements such as "puppet-state", "terrorist" etc. will come along and reiterate that this article is not neutral. Nathraq 11:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Here is a number of reputable references confirming this as true:
Pavelic and his followers eventually decided to strike down the head of state. In collusion with IMRO, the Macedonian terrorist organization, three Ustashi agents were the direct accomplices of the IMRO assassins who murdered King Alexander and the French foreign minister in Marseilles in October 1934.
In November 1990 the first free elections were held in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). The undisputed winner was the extremist nationalist IMRO-DPMNU (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization - Democratic Party of Macedonian National Unity). Both its name and its manifesto refer directly to the organization of the same name that was active at the end of the ninetheenth century. Nor is it a coincidence that a report published by the US Department of State in 1991 describes IMRO-DPMNU as a terrorist organization modelling itself on the old IMRO.
Indeed, the Kosove Committee signed an agreement on co-operation with the Bulgarian terrorist organization IMRO in 1920, on joint actions against the young South Slav state
Hovever, the Balkans have a long tradition of terrorism in which the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) played a leading role as well as Croat Ustasha.
With the assistance of the army and the moderate wing of IMRO, the government was able to disband the terrorist organization; its leader, Ivan Mihailov fled.
Ideological similarities and the goal of destroying Yugoslavia provided basis for co-operation between Pavelic's party and the IMRO (Inner Macedonian Revolutionary Organization), a Bulgarian right-wing terrorist organization.
Operatives of the Macedonian terrorist organization IMRO assassinated Stamboliski's close adviser Alexander Dimitrov.
In 1903 the IMRO (a terrorist organization founded in Thessaloniki in 1893) orchestrated the 1903 Ilinden uprising (for details, see Chapter 5).
-- Standshown ( talk) 00:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
-- Standshown ( talk) 02:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have not expected jokes in so serious discussion (neutral point of view is something I follow strictly) :)) In wikipedia this organizations are not terrorist organizations:
Do you want to say that IMRO is terrorist organizations but this 3 are not ?? If you still think that IMRO is terrorist organization then you are using double standards because it is not possible that this 3 are not terrorist organizations but IMRO is !! -- Rjecina ( talk)
First claim
World Service never uses the term "terrorist" exept when it is attributed to third parties. The reason? Its use implies a judgment and a point of view. And the World Service, like Wikipedia, strives not to have a point of view. Kirker ( talk) 09:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Second claim
Do you want to say that IMRO is terrorist organizations but this 3 are not ?? If you still think that IMRO is terrorist organization then you are using double standards because it is not possible that this 3 are not terrorist organizations but IMRO is !! -- Rjecina ( talk)
From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
Al-Qaeda has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United Nations Security Council, [1] the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General, [2] [3] the Commission of the European Communities of the European Union, [4] the United States Department of State, [5] the Australian Government, [6] Public Safety Canada, [7] the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, [8] Japan's Diplomatic Bluebook, [9] South Korean Foreign Ministry, [10] the Dutch Military Intelligence and Security Service, [11] the United Kingdom Home Office, [12] Russia, [13] the Swedish Ministry for Foreign Affairs, [14] and the Swiss Government. [15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[5] the European Union,[6] Israel,[7] Japan,[8] and the United States,[9] and is banned in Jordan.[10] Australia [11] and the United Kingdom [12] list the militant wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. In recent years Hamas has grown in popularity, though in the last year Hamas's popularity has started to wane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLO
According to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report, the PLO was "the richest of all terrorist organizations" with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from "donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc.". The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world including Zimbabwe and Somalia.[5]
-- Standshown ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I have now restored some of the editing reverted by Stagalj, with appropriate references. Some of the changes are simply to remove sloppy wording. (For instance Pavelić did not "act" as defence counsel, he WAS defence counsel. And "the Skopje trials" was an inappropriate phrase since it would embrace many scores of trials that have taken place in Skopje.) I hope the present wording re IMRO will be acceptable to Stagalj. It indicates that IMRO members were charged with terrorist offences (fact) but without defining IMRO as "terrorist" (opinion). With the POV description deleted, a series of lengthy references became redundant since they had been provided only to show that IMRO has sometimes been described as a terrorist organisation. I have therefore deleted them. As I have previously suggested to Stagalj, there may be a case for Wikipedia citing the various ways that IMRO has been described. But the place for that is in the IMRO article, to which this article links. The last point to note is that I have moved the edited text back to where I had it before, under the heading 1920s and 1930s. I hope that this at least is beyond contention. Kirker ( talk) 15:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
To reference Kaputt is complete nonsense and Harvard scholar Michael McAdams has proved otherwise in his book "Croatia: Myth&Reality" - which is much more credible than anything presented here. I would like to add much to this, but what is the point of writing something out and referencing it, when someone can just erase it the next day? Is there a way around this?
I am new to Wikipedia and the whole lay out of these discussions is very confusing so please correct my placing of this if it is in an inappropriate place. AP1929 ( talk) 07:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The links at the bottom of this article are so bad it is almost laughable. - all of the sources are Serbian or Jewish - not to mention that the Jasenovac website has lost all credibility considering it's totally bogus list of victims (my own family is listed as being killed at Jasenovac ... don't believe me, find a Croatian friend/acquaintance and he will easily locate one of his family members who obviously did not perish there.) AP1929 ( talk) 08:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Fascist ? Pavelic took on some fascist principles, but he himself was not a fascist and the NDH was not a fascist state - not to mention we live in the 21st century and the term "fascist" doesn't really mean anything anymore. When I see "fascist" - unless it is in regards to Mussolini's Italy or Spain etc (States that openly identified themselves as fascist, and had their own defined form of fascism) - then I see that the person who wrote that in the article clearly has some sort of bias.
Pavelic's stance on fascism is quite clear in his own book "Strahote Zabluda" which was written prior to NDH IN fascist Italy. AP1929 ( talk) 07:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The Ustasa movement was not a ""extremist catholic/nationalist and genocidal organisation". Why ? Well... many people who were not Catholic were Muslims - 80 percent of the most elite Ustasa formation known as Crna Legija / Black Legion was that of Islamic faith, not to mention that the country itself was only about 50 percent Catholic. It is understandable for someone to get that impression becausei n the 90s when war broke out, the Serbian propaganda machine started reeling out pictures of Ustase with priests etc, Bishops that supported the Ustase, this all had to do with the "revival of NDH" which the serbs 'feared' and it was easy to use things like this when the Pope himself and the Vatican recognized the Republic of Croatia early on in the days of the war.
Dr. Ante Pavelic said it himself :
Brat je mio koje vjere bio.Mi imamo jedan veliki dio naroda,koji je katoličke vjere.Imamo muslimana,imamo evangeličke vjere ,ima i pučanstva koje je u pravoslavlju.Državni je interes da ne bude u državi nikakvih nesporazuma,a najmanje vjerskih trzavica.Nama je to posebni interes,jer znamo da smo na granici Balkana,mi znamo da smo s istim Balkanom osobito bili vjekovima u doticaju.Mi znamo,da smo bili i pod balkanskim pritiskom,mi znamo da se na Balkanu do nedavna narod razlikovao po vjerama,da je narodnost bila,ne ću reći,zamrla,ali tako prikrivena uslied dogadjaja,da je vidljiva bila samo vjera i da su se ljudi po vjeri razlikovali.To je momenat prošlosti.Danas smo svi jedno,mi smo u jednoj državi,jer imamao narodnu nacionalnu sviest i obilježje i ne možemo i ne smiemo da bi drugi momenti-pa i vjerski momenti-unosili u našu zajednicu trzavice. Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic,28.veljače 1942
A brother is a friend no matter what religion he may be. We have one large portion of our population which is of the Catholic faith. We have Muslims, we have Evangelists, we even have a Orthodox population. The nations interests are that there are no misunderstandings, especially those of ones to do with faith. It is in our greatest interest because we know that we are on the border of the "Balkan", we know that we have suffered greatly under the thumb of the Balkan and we know that until not too long ago many people identified themselves with their faith. That is a part of history. Today we are all one, we are one nation, we have a peoples national mark and we can not let faith get between us. Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic. February 28, 1942
As for "genocide" highly doubtful. Once again, Croatian history is very tainted and everyday some type of new discovery makes it's way out. Take a look at the principles of the Ustasa movement it was founded upon. Cheers, AP1929 ( talk) 21:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
My friend, you still have a long way to go - I - someone who knows actual Ustase and living Ministers of NDH, someone who has collected hundreds of Ustasa magazines in the Croatian diaspora, someone who spends most of his life studying NDH and Ustastvo, still does not know it all - but I can tell you, you have a long, long, long way to go. Don't let it discourage you.
Now - The information you have put in the WW2 sections is in great majority incorrect, even down to simple things - "Domobran's were unequipped soldiers who did not commit crimes" lol ... I think you should take a look at Hrvatsko Domobranstvo a little better. Oh and Ustasa was a paramilitary ? Do you know what a paramilitary is ? A paramilitary is something like blackwter or HOS during the Croatian war of independence (until HOS was recognized as a fighting for in BiH by the Bosnian government of course) Ustaska vojnica was a massive army and that as one recognized and set up by the state of NDH. Paramilitaries and guerrilla armies are those which are set up a part from the state and are not recognized fighting forces i.e partizans etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AP1929 ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
UGH ! I would like to have the user who keeps changing all of this banned ! I put so much work into finding the original record of the "Proglas" of NDH (announcement) and writing it all out in Croatian and then translating it into english but this imbeciles still wants to tell me because he thinks he knows something about Slavko Kvatrenik. Slavko Kvatrenik did not proclaim NDH on April 10th 1941, it was Marko Dosen.
Not to mention, the person who did this also snuck in "fascist" before Ustase in some parts of the article. I shall be making a complaint to wikipedia right now ! Cheers to everyone who is willing to learn/debate !
AP1929 ( talk) 19:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Looks like Croatian revisionism is in full sway. Pavelic was not a fascist or a nazi? Something worse than both - there are numerous reference already given here (on the talk page) and in the very article, too.
-- Standshown ( talk) 02:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
@ User:Rjecina My suggestions to you are as follows : Don't even go to school to be as credible as I am, don't study NDH like I do - but atleast learn how to speak/read/write in the english language before you plan on making contributions to an encyclopedic article. If you are fluent in Croatian, or Serbian, discuss and edit the Serbian/Croatian wikipedia versions, as you can clearly communicate and add to those articles in the language at hand.
NDH was not a "puppet state" and labeling it as so is against wikipedia regulations. End of story. NDH is only a puppet state in the former-Yugoslavia who either have very strong hatred toward NDH or want to distance it self from NDH. We here in the modern, civilized world have different means of communication. The parts that I had edited out were incorrect and bias, if I had the time to correct such nonsense I would have done so, but instead I left it open for everyone. You have deleted my vital information about HOP (which most non-Croats have means to find out what HOP even is), you have deleted my section about Islam in the NDH , and about the Orthodox church in NDH. You have also deleted the numerous image contributions I have made, which I find fairly offensive as I took the time to upload those images (from my own archives) and display them to the rest of the world. Next time I will make sure to copy/paste and save my version, so that I may do the exact same childish thing you just did to me - vise versa.
Now....
@ User:Kirker Never once did I say that the NDH was innocent, but it is hard to remain 'neutral' with people spewing such undoubted Yugoslav/Zionist/Serbian propaganda ! I am giving you my two cents, which should be very valuable as I have access to actual NDH archives, books, information, eyewitness accounts ! Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic had his own men sentenced to death for the mistreatment of inmates in Jasenovac ? Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic put an end to the 'wild Ustase' (non-sworn herzegovinian peasants rampaging and slaughtering Serbian civilians in southeastern Herzegovina). Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic founded the Croatian Orthodox church in 1942 to try to appease to the Serbs living within NDH who were rampaging and massacring all along the countryside? Did you know that Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic did not want anything to do with the persecution of the Jew in NDH and by 1943 released Jewish inmates to the Germans? Did you know that NDH did not have ONE not ONE death camp ? There were no places in NDH where people were systematically killed. People died of poor conditions in camps and at the hand of lunatic guards, but there was no actual camp policy (even at Jasenovac) that indicated the large scale systematic slaughter of the people there ? There were no gas chambers, no crematoriums like at Auschwitz - there were however lunatic Ustase guards who really hated serbs and chose to act on their own ! No one is denying that ! BUT, to generalize everyone, the entire group, is purely ridiculous and is unlike our civilized western society. My whole point here is, many myths have been created about NDH and people really need to look into them. No one is saying that NDH was some totally innocent country that committed no crimes, because that is as much nonsense as "NDH was a brutal killing machine and everyday it rained there because if a superior being was to put pathetic false on one place in the world at that time it was NDH because it was just that bad!" come on !
The NDH had many intellectual institutions, released an encyclopedia edition every year it existed, it had schools, theaters, people practiced their faith openly, celebrated culture - lived life !
AP1929 ( talk) 04:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
@ User:Kirker Actually, I had simply made *one* spelling error, and that is pretaining to the word "fallacy" (as I had not used it in quite some time).
Pathetic Fallacy : or anthropomorphic fallacy is the description of inanimate natural objects in a manner that endows them with human feelings, thoughts and sensations.
Not to mention that it is a total run-on sentence without punctuation, thus making a mockery of Serbian/Zionist/Yugoslav propaganda, which isn't even well-written in the first place.
And now let's get something straight about my Poglavnik - to me, he is a Croatian hero, probably one of the greatest of all time (my opinion) but he is still a human being and I know his flaws and mistakes very well - and will acknowledge them. When my 'zeal' comes out is when some uneducated hoodlum comes on here trying to tell me completely made up garbage about him or NDH. I am not here to paint pretty pictures of Poglavnik, rather share the truth, and correct the incorrect. Thanks, AP1929 ( talk) 23:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
AP1929 has made sweeping changes to the content and balance of the article without attempting to explain them here. He has also removed a whole raft of references (including, for instance, Neubacher's contemporary, on-the-spot observations) presumably because they do not accord with his own views. Also some of his changes are decidedly POV - for instance it was "unfortunate" that Croatians came to feel betrayed by Pavelić. (My view is that it was not before time, but as with AP1929's, my view should not come into it.) As he understands how Wikipedia works, his editing borders on bad faith. Moreover the English he has used is at best slovenly, with bizarre lapses into the present tense, etc. Yet he presumes to lecture others on their spelling and use of English. The article was fairly poor to start with and I am not, myself, wholly opposed to everything AP1929 has tried to do. But I would suggest that he needs to stand back a little and take a more objective view of the guy he clearly adulates if he wants his edits to survive. However much he wants to pass the blame on to others, the fact is that vast and grotesque crimes occured on Pavelić's watch and no encyclopedia entry can overlook that. Maybe the best way forward is to undo all AP1929's recent edits, protect the article from further editing and only lift that protection when we have reached a consensus here about how to improve it. Any views? Kirker ( talk) 15:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Because this user and his puppets have edited this and many articles in times when they have been banned I will in this month revert all changes which has been writen against wikipedia rules. -- Rjecina ( talk) 20:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
@
User:Rjecina How mature. You will not win. I guarantee it.
For the rest of the nonCroatian speaking world, Rjecina's above title "Pederkovic Ante" means "Faggot Ante".
What I am doing is in good faith, I have presented the facts, and now will work on the tenses and such. User:AniMate had removed my article on the grounds that it ignores what happened during World War Two and because of improper tenses. The original edit ignores the majority of Poglavnik Dr. Ante Pavelic's life, and basically goes into irrelevant ramblings in order to degrade him - not to mention that the punctuation and writing was even more brutal then my trouble with tenses which I agreed to fix up. I know what people like you, and Rjecina want, and it is the constant reminder of Croatia being a Nazi-ally, Ustase being Nazis, and 'crimes' of the "Ustasa regime". The fact of the matter is this, NDH crimes, belong in their own article which should be referenced in this one. To blame Dr.Pavelic for the crimes of individuals and to label him a fascist criminal is incorrect and is not a neutral description. AP1929 ( talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I used Poglavnik Title during WW2 and Dr. title throughout the rest of his life, if someone has the time, remove them and fix up my past/present mistakes.
I would like my article to be the template for this page (as it is much better than the one before), so if you would like to add to it, go right ahead ! Post your edits here and we will discuss (kind of fresh start). AP1929 ( talk) 18:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I've filed two RFCs in the History and Biography sections asking for some outside opinions. Obviously, the two "sides" are pretty far apart and this is a way for us to gain consensus about the direction of this article. AniMate 03:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Ante Pavelić (July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) was the Head (Poglavnik) and founding member of the Croatian fascist Ustaše movement in the 1930s and later the leader of the Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state[1] [2] of Nazi Germany during World War II.
My version:Dr. Ante Pavelic ( July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) Croatian politician, head of state, and revolutionary. Dr. Ante Pavelic was the founder of " Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization" (UHRO) and later the leader - "Poglavnik" - of the Independent State of Croatia.
The Ustasa movement was NOT a "fascist" movement, if it was I'm sure they would have had no problem identifying themselves as that - this is moreso a branding from the YugoSerb perspective.
Taken from wikipedia's article on "fascism": The key attribute of fascism is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc
Above I have written a quote coming from Pavelic himself, where he explains that he is completely against religious division within the state. The Ustasa movement had many Muslims in it, none of their traditions and or cultural practices were outlawed. The only people who were persecuted were Serbs who were against the state and Jews due to pressure coming from Germany. By 1943 NDH didn't want anything to do with the persecution of Jews and handed them to the Germans (not that that makes it any better but is proof that Croats didn't really want to be part of the Final solution), by 1942 Pavelic tried to appease to the Serbian minority in NDH by forming a Croatian Orthodox church - why, because any Orthodox church is a national church i.e Greek orthodox. Pavelic had no problem with Serbs who accepted Croatia as their homeland.
As for language - also widely acceptable in NDH. NDH had a "pravopis" which solidified the Croatian language after centuries of foreign adaptations etc, but it had nothing against other languages:
"9. Strane se riječi pišu:
1) kako se pišu u jeziku, iz kog potječu, na pr. Rousseau, Dumas, Goethe, Shakespeare; "
Translation : Foreign words are written: 1) how they are written in the language which they derive from i.e Rousseau, Dumas, Goethe, Shakespeare.
This is taken right from a proclamation made in Zagreb by Mile Budak in 1941 and is apart of the Law of NDH.
The only economic system that the NDH did not agree with was communism, which most of the modern world disagrees with and has proven time in and out to be inn affective.
AP1929 ( talk) 04:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
From article #1 : As the leader of the Ustaše he directly ordered, organized and conducted a campaign of terror against Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and communist Croats. It is possible that Pavelić's Ustaše regime was the most murderous Nazi puppet state in the whole of occupied Europe
If this isn't POV I don't know what is. Pavelic never directly ordered a 'campaign of terror' againse Serbs Jews Gypsies and Communist croats, and there is absolutely no proof of this. Anti-semetic laws were pushed upon Croatia by it's German ally, and everyone else that was prosecuted was "Enemy of the State", they weren't in those camps because of their nationality they were there because they were a possible threat to the existence of NDH - many Serbs lived normal lives in NDH - they were either a-political or found Croatia to be their homeland. Once again I disagree with the use of the term "puppet state" and it is a violation of wikipedia itself. Not to mention that that entire statement is simply crazy and doesn't hold any water.
The tales of Fra Majstorovic are simply irrelevant and have been proven to be complete nonsense i.e "Srbosjek", killing competitions which even with a margin of error don't make any mathematical sense. The Vatican deFacto recognized NDH and had a representative living in the country every year of it's existence.
From article #1 : In May 1945 Pavelić fled via Bleiburg to Austria, where he stayed for a few months before transferring to Rome, where he was hidden by members of the Roman Catholic Church (as is documented in de-classified US Intelligence documents
I'm pretty sure this was pulled frm "paveli-papers" which is not a credible source at all and is more of a conspiracy theory site built to deface Ustase and Pavelic more and more, and even this simple information is incorrect. Why ?
Ante Pavelic did not step foot in Rome when he went into exile, all this is is an attempt to tie Croatians to the Catholic church and make both of them look bad : the primary goal of Serbian radicals during the Croatian homeland war.
Pavelic went as following, according to Krizman and Pavelic's very own memoirs... (Not to mention that I know people that traveled with him as protection) ....
Zagreb ---> Slatina ---> Rogaska ----> Maribor ----> Leingreith----> Napulj----> Buenos Aires
AP1929 ( talk) 04:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
No where did I say "a few" enemies of the state were imprisoned, the numbers are clearly in the 100 thousand rage - and Jasenovac was a labor camp and doesn't meet the requirements of a concentration camp - at Jasenovac, death was an acceptable by-product, not camp policy. Thousands still lost their lives, and I am NOT denying that, I am just trying to bring correctness into the picture - or at least the "view from the other side" (even though I think I've been fairly neutral) so that non-Croats/Serbs/Muslims can come to a neutral conclusion and a better understanding of the situation. Pavelic became more of a figure mid-NDH, the people who had the actual power were known as the "rasovi" and you may want to look that up on the Axis History Forum, where actual specialists of World War Two come together to come to facts Vs fiction. The 'consensus' on this talk page are compliments of "Antifascist" in otherwords, communist 'croats' and even Serbs (look at their profiles - user Rjecina even has a little box that says "I am an anti-fascist therefor i do not like the NDH and the third reich), if you would like me to make the situation much different - by brining a pack of people who REALLY 'glorify' the man we are here debating about I will be glad to do so ! Try to not do so much research on NDH, rather research simply the terms that are being used to describe it and the people who are writing about it. AP1929 ( talk) 06:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
AP1929, for the sake of clarity please be consistent with your indenting. (I've tidied them up for you again.)
Take away Axis signatories and countries that were invaded by the Axis, and your list above begins to look very feeble. And when you're talking about the law, de facto doesn't come into it. Only de jure counts. Another point: "Croatia" is not acceptable shorthand for ISC/NDH. The latter, by German decree, also included the Bosnia and Hercegovina regions of Yugoslavia. Much as some Croats in Hercegovina may have welcomed the Nazis with open arms, the population of Bosnia certainly did not. And it speaks volumes that the NDH could not win recognition even from a Holy See that, at the time, was at least sanguine about nazism and fascism.
You have made some valid points. It might be best to concentrate on those first, before moving on to battles that you're never likely to win. Kirker ( talk) 11:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Edits of AP1929 and Stagalj (aka Velebit aka Purger aka ...) are very interesting. Now is possible to see difference in 1 article when we use POV croatian and POV serbian sources. I will use this versions of article every time when another editor in another controversial article use obscure books like his source. In our discussions all books are obscure because other editors are not having possibility to look this "sources".-- Rjecina ( talk) 17:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What are you saying ?! Go BACK TO SCHOOL, learn HOW to speak and write in ENGLISH, and THEN come to the here and debate ! For now I am putting my article back, edit war or not. AP1929 ( talk) 19:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
As for what is written below .... The fact that many people credit Kaputt does not make it true, it just goes to show how little they know, and how much research they actually did. The book is a work of fiction, end of story. AP1929 ( talk) 07:47, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed Pavelic's titles "Dr." and or "Poglavnik" from the article for neutral ground. Any future editing should be to this brushed up version of the article, which is very fair/neutral and unbias - we are speaking of events, and the life of this man - not Ustasa attrocities or Jasenovac - which are to be on their own page and mentioned on this one.
Also, I have fixed-up tenses and other grammatical errors, if anyone spots any others, please feel free to correct. Cheers. AP1929 ( talk) 08:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
In writing last lines I have become tired of writing new comments.
"Bring down Yugoslavia" - by any means, is the only goal of HNO - and this is outlined by Maks Luburic himself : "Nas stav je jasan : Rusiti svaku Jugoslaviju, Rusite je s Rusima i Amerikancima, s komunistima i nekomunistima i s antikomunistima: rusite ju sa svakim koji ju rusi; rusite ju dialektom rijeci i dinamitom ali ju rusite, jer i ako jedna drzava nema pravo obstajati jest samo i jedino Jugoslavija !"
-Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic
Translation: Our stance is loud and clear : To bring down every Yugoslavia, bring it down with Russians, Americans, with communists and anti-communists: bring it down with everyone else who is bringing it down; bring it down with words and with dynamite but bring it down, because if there is one country that doesn't have the right to exist, it is Yugoslavia !" - Maks Luburic AP1929 ( talk) 18:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
(I have reorganised my recent arguments with AP1929 into this separate section so that is easier for others to bypass if they wish!)
First, AP1929, when you discuss things here, please don't put your responses in the middle of other people's comments, as you seem to have done above. I assume the comments were made by Rjecina, who possibly did not sign off. But even if he did, your interruptions would still have made it very difficult for others to understand who was saying what.
Now... Your rewrite is a shoddy piece of work. I have already suggested it would be better if you introduced changes one by one, so that we could discuss, find consensus and move forward a step at a time. When you chuck away a whole load of work that had involved many people over a long period, you run the risk of having the whole of your contribution thrown away in a single "undo". And as it stands now, that is the best thing that could happen to it.
To suggest that P led a "major party" in 1923 or thereabouts is ridiculous. Stjepan Radić was the almost unquestioned voice of Yugoslavia's Croatians and P was a tiny figure in comparison.
Maček did not in any sense proclaim the NDH, he merely wrote a statement (read in a radio broadcast by someone else) asking Croatians to support the new authorities.
A Belgrade court sentenced P to death for, among other things, an agreement he reached with Mihailov. If you don't explain exactly why he got so severe a sentence, obviously anyone is entitled to ask. (Your reference to the other death sentence is a muddle. He was arrested and detained in Italy, but the death sentence was passed in France. That is far from clear from what you have written.)
Both P and Budak made statements explaining their crude plan to dispose of all Serbs in the NDH and to leave out all mention of such matters is just to whitewash the man. You turn to your Rasovi article to defend yourself, but where in that article - either as you wrote it, or as I edited it - is there any suggestion that Eugen Kvaternik, Maks Luburić, etc were beyond P's control? They were P's closest and most trusted aides and they were running a reign of terror. To imply that P had nothing to do with it is risible.
Why no mention of Vatican authorities giving P safe haven when he was en route to South America? You may not think that happened, but you know very well that documents were found in the files of America's CIA that say it did happen. Any neutral article should mention that claim, even if it is balanced by another conflicting claim.
Like Rjecina I could go on and on, but I've run out of stamina. Kirker ( talk) 02:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Of course Maček's anger about the NDH came after the NDH. (Well, also "during.") How could anyone have foreseen what depravities would accompany P's regime? I'm sorry, but your bland dismissal of all sources less than adulatory about P suggest to me that you have a very narrow perspective on the subject of this article. And it was simply wrong-headed to delete an article to which many had contributed in favour of your own hopelessly skewed version. Kirker ( talk) 14:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Kirker has put this better than I ever could. My current participation on Wikipedia is limited due to an influx of work with the end of the US screenwriters strike. That being said, my opinion is that this rewrite is absolutely terrible. There's a huge difference between adding balance, and adding bias. You've added bias, rather poorly I might add, and I'm tempted to simply revert you but cannot muster the energy to really care enough right now. Frankly, I'm stunned no one has gone back to the better version already.
Finally, do not insult other editors on my page either. Personal attacks say much more about the attacker than the subject. AniMate 04:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have returned the article to 'my' - much more factual version. This article should be a template for future editing. If non-Croat/Serb users see parts of the article which appear to be POV I would like them to present that particular part of the article here on the discussion page where we can come to a conclusion. I plan on (with the help of others) creating a Holocaust / Atrocities section on this page, however up until then, this article is much more factual and has many more references to actual events in Pavelic's life with dates included and political life post-NDH. I am trying to come to a clean/neutral encyclopedic article on Pavelic without the terms "puppet state" or "fascist" - which are both terms of political criticism - thus not POV - not to mention that term "puppet state" in relation to Croatia is against wiki rules and regulations. AP1929 ( talk) 00:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Article : 1889 – December 28, 1959) was the Head (Poglavnik) and founding member of the Croatian fascist Ustaše movement in the 1930s and later the leader of the Independent State of Croatia, a puppet state[1] [2] of Nazi Germany during World War II.
Suggested change : 1889 Dember 28, 1959) was a Croatian writer, politician, revolutionary and the founding member of the Croatian "Ustasa" movement - UHRO [Ustasa - Hrvatska Revolucionarna Organizacija] [Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization]and later the leader (Poglavnik) of the Independent State of Croatia, a minor Axis nation during the second World War. AP1929 ( talk) 07:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
For starters Kirker, it is 2008 and there is no such thing as "Yugoslavia" - I, and millions of Croatians globe-wide find people like you calling Croatia "Yugoslavia" today despicably offensive.
The Ustasa movement WAS a Revolutionary movement by all definitions, however the NDH was not a 'client' or 'puppet' state. Croatia only really had one policy that was 'determined' from outside, moreso imposed, and those were racial laws against Jews, which were abolished by 1943. In 1941, Croatia did NOT breach the rules of sovereign succession - it was created by the Croatian people at the will of the Croatian people - and both terms are nothing but terms of political criticism which does not make for a NEUTRAL article. AP1929 ( talk) 06:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand, when I want to edit something, it gets changed immediately without any type of consensus. Kirker has constantly agreed that the article 'isn't that great', and without me here it seems to be left at a standstill - I wonder why - maybe because the other editors are dreaming of "Yugoslavia". "Pavelic's quarrelsome nature" - like how is that encyclopedic ? "....he sulked in his seat" - "Pavelic fled through Austria to Rome where he was hidden by the Pope himself" - who writes this garbage ? The historical committee of "Yugoslavia" as Kirker calls it? OH - and BIG NEWS - guess what Kirker - I found Vladko Macek's proclamation of NDH and NDH newspapers with his proclamation on them - like I said and promised to present. A REFERENCE on this page - is to a website that claims that Fr. Majstorovic killed 'countless Serbs with his BARE HANDS". This article is a JOKE ! Where is the neutrality ? The two of you govern this page and have not a clue as to what Ustase were let alone what Croatia is - heck, one of the 'main editors' here just called Croatia "Yugoslavia" ! The wikipedia page on HITLER is more neutral than it is on Pavelic ! The references are nothing but Serbian/Zionist/Serbo-Communist "Yugoslav" propaganda. AP1929 ( talk) 06:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia.pdf
This is the same material but in a different format> http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/croatia(n)-1.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Objective Truth ( talk • contribs) 04:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
It's inactive,so i removed it.
-- (GriffinSB) ( talk) 13:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
New change : Dr. Ante Pavelic (July 14, 1889 – December 28, 1959) Croatian politician, head of state, and revolutionary.Ante Pavelic was the founder of "Ustasa - Croatian Revolutionary Organization" (UHRO) and later the leader - "Poglavnik" - of the Independent State of Croatia.
If anyone here thinks that Jozo Tomasevic's book about the Serbian Chetnik movement is a reliable source to brand NDH a "puppet" state - why don't they look at the actual reference and see what it says. A proclamation of NDH occurred without 'German/Italian bayonets' - Germany didn't even recognize Croatia until 5 days after it was proclaimed! AP1929 ( talk) 06:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
So I guess you could say you will be amongst the select few who were the first to note the mistake of labeling the NDH as a "puppet". AP1929 ( talk) 01:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
This matter was concluded long ago on the NDH article. Sources overwhelmingly refer to the NDH as a puppet state. Not a "member" state, not a "client" state, not a "satellite" state, but simply puppet state. Of course the "country" was a member of the Axis, but it was also most certainly a puppet state of Nazi Germany. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 08:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Kirker, with all due respect, please don't preach Wikipedia values. Objectively speaking, if one wanted to present an example of a typically "puppet state", I can't think of a better example. In other words, it would be very hard to find a country that was more thoroughly under the control of another. Furthermore, "puppet" state is not a pejorative, "puppet" is not an insult. It may be an insult to the national pride of those who support the state's existence and consider it "their own", but this does not qualify the term as "pejorative". The sources we have are hardly insignificant, and I can think of no better source for public usage of a scientific term than Britannica.
Also, I am fully aware of the politics in occupied Yugoslavia, and I do know that Aimone of Spoleto was given the title, I also know that Pavelić was in Mussolini's debt for his pre-war support, and that he was Italy's candidate for Croatian dictator. However, these nominal facts are irrelevant, as Italy exerted incomparably less influence over the country than Germany due to Italy's annexation of Dalmatia. The NDH (backed by Germany) and Italy were constantly in conflict over this issue. Italy was also getting weaker (diplomatically and militarily) by the month, being a far weaker country than Germany from the start. In short, "equal" influence between Italy and Germany was the original diplomatically conceived idea, but de-facto existed only in the first months, if even then. Also, one should note that when the state ceased to exist, it was a puppet state of Germany alone. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
22:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Ante Pavelic did not hold any such title as "Head of the NDH" from 1941 to 1945. Pavelic's role as Poglavnik was a title which was held within the UHRO, and not directly a governmental position. As head of the UHRO he controlled the Glavni Ustaski Stan one of the main institutions in the NDH. He held the position of president of the government (premier) from 1941 to 1943. After this point he exited the government. Although heading the Ustashe may have been a more powerful position than president of the government, as the NDH didn't have a constitution it is impossible to say which of the two actually functioned as head of state. Pavelic's successor as president, Nikola Mandic, is the one who remained in Zagreb the longest and actually attempted to engage the Allies with the remaining Croatian state apparatus in the waning days of the war. -- Thewanderer ( talk) 23:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Head paragraph - the Croatian paramilitary separatist movement, the Ustaše. phrase is defunct. Ustashe were from the very beginning an illegal terrorist organization supported only by Nazi Germany and the fascist Italy governments and later - a nazi/fascist organization. Replaced citation needed by a credible reference
Removed bizarre text about Ustashe dignitaries
In September of 1942, Pavelić traveled to the Eastern Front along with Jure Francetić where he met Hitler at Vinnytsia on September 23.[20] The following day the two met Croatian legionnaires serving in the 369th Reinforced Croatian Infantry Regiment. Pavelić met with general Friedrich Paulus and decorated several of the legionnaires with military awards.[21]
This is an encyclopedia biography - not a Pavelic's personal diary. -- 72.75.24.245 ( talk) 00:47, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
Good work. It reads a lot better. Kirker ( talk) 22:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it should be stated explicitly that Pavelić together with the Roman Catholic prelate Aloysius Stepinac were responsible for devising (or at least pursued) the ignominious "convert or die" policy. __ meco ( talk) 16:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Look, its simple: you think Yugoslav sources are POV, the vast majority of the world does not. Accordingly, I too do not give a damn about your own personal standards about sources. Also, I dare claim that not a single historian on the face of this planet would describe the NDH as a religiously tolerant state. You also accept that forced conversions took place, but try and display the Ustaše in a tolerant light. Do you have any idea how that sounds?
Further, proving that the Ustaše were lenient towards one minority religion, and aimed to exterminate the other does not really do much to prove your point. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
08:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I see this article is still a piece of junk, and I love how all of the side bar information is mine, including the photo, but all my other contributions are less valuable than those of the Yugoslav user DIREKTOR. What is pro-fascist now ? Does that still mean the NDH was or wasn't fascist, reads funny. How can the Ustasa movement or the NDH be fascist when fascism is anti-christian and is intolerant of various faiths? Fascists might support as civic religion, which is outlined by wikipedia itself, and usually involved imperialism. Can someone please enlighten me as to how the NDH was either of the two. How can Croatia be a state of Germany? Pavelic was not part of the "pure" party of rights, such a party exists today, but he was only part of the Croatian Party of Right. Land gain? AP1929 ( talk) 05:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I am coming late to this discussion but can you AP1929 enlighten me ? You are saying that fascism is anti-christian and because of that Ustaše are not fascists. If this statement is true then Mussolini is not fascist and National Fascist Party is not fascist party ???? -- Rjecina ( talk) 18:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Problem 1: the terms "fascist" and "puppet state" do not make for a neutral encyclopedic article.
Problem 2: Pavelić would later cede parts of Dalmatia and some Adriatic islands to Italy in exchange for being allowed to take all of modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina into the NDH.
Pavelic did not cede parts of Dalmatia to Italy, Pavelic did however reinstate Italy's Adriatic border in accord with the Treaty of Rappallo between Italy and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, these and the Rome Accords were however void as of September of 1943 - after the defeat of Mussolini. The idea that Pavelic did so to gain Bosnia is insane and incorrect as there was no question as to Bosnia being part of Croatia at that point in time. Bosnia went into the Hapsburg empire with Croatia and was a region in that empire as were other Croatian regions: Slavonia, Dalmatia etc. There were absolutely no agreements made in regards to Croatia's borders prior to the Rome Agreements - the Croatian people proclaimed their state on their ethnic and historic boundaries, and discussed it's Italian border months later.
Problem 3: after the Axis powers had agreed to formation of the Independent State of Croatia, Pavelić returned to Zagreb and became leader of the State throughout its existence.
Another weak attempt by communists to make the NDH seem more and more fictional than factional. The Axis did not agree to any formation of a Croatian state, if they had done so, they would have recognized it on the day of proclamation, and the state borders would have been discussed. The fact the Italy and Germany were the first amongst Axis nations - and key factors - to recognize the state days after proclamation proves this as do the Rome Agreements. The Axis DID agree to attack Yugoslavia, however, there is no proof of them agreeing to forming a Croatian state, there is not one document, not one anything.
Problem 4: Official policy against the Serbs was extermination, expulsion, and conversion to the Roman Catholicism. This is completely unfounded and untrue. I would like to see one single document from this time which would indicate this.
AP1929 ( talk) 05:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Problem 1: Actually, it is also the opinion of wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a forum, and you are not a historian or an archivist, simply a pawn with too much time on his hands willing to misinform the general public in protection of your communist ideals and family.
Problem 2 Pavelic did not give Italy anything. The fact that you say he gave them and then the sentence after say that he had to is contradictory. Pavelic could not be replaced months after the creation of NDH, note, the Rome Agreements took place months after establishment. The last part of your argument is sheer idiocy at it's best.
Problem 3 Actually, if Germany would have had it's true way, a Yugoslavia would have existed, and that is why Yugoslavia was Germany's first option. Nedic's Serbia was controlled by the Germans - militarily, as was Montenegro, whereas NDH was not. The border discussion took place months after either of those two entities deJure recognized Croatia, therefor your argument is completely void. Talks with Macek took place long before the proclamation of NDH, it was Germany's third best interest to keep intact a "Banovina Hrvatska" which existed within Yugoslavia in 1939. As of April 10th, 1941, there was a Croatia and it's leader was undisputed, even Vlatko Macek recognized him and the state and called his followers to do the same. He did this via radio and print media. Therefor, the delay in recognition has nothing to do with who the Germans or Italians wanted to install as the head of state. If the Germans and Italians truly formed the NDH, there would have been no talks in regards to borders, they would have been implemented from the first day. If the Germans and Italians truly formed the NDH, the German military would not have been under local command and the Italians would not have had to sign an agreement in regards to UV troops entering the Italian occupation zone which was in place for the first few months so that the newly created state could get to its feet.
Problem 4 Jasenovac - the place, and dr. Mile Budak are not documents, I asked you for legal documents - they exist for Jews, why do they not exist for Serbs ? Unfortunately you can no provide me with any, as you can not even properly argue with me - which makes sense I mean it would be quite disappointing if you could. AP1929 ( talk) 09:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
AP1929 ( talk) 01:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Whatever, your list of fascist Bosniaks proves nothing. As I pointed out very plainly: this is all besides the point. Your thesis that the Ustaše were not fascist because they "supported multiple religions" is complete and utter nonsense. Even if I conceded all your points, even if I said, yes, "Bosniaks were Croats during World War II", yes, "the NDH was a religiously tolerant state" (LoL), even then what is your point!? Are you saying that religious tolerance makes the country "non-fascist", what!? If granting Muslims religious freedom is a mark of "non-fascists", can you point out a fascist state that denied Muslims their religious freedom? -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 08:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
User:AP1929, if I understood you correctly (in spite of my apparent lack of reading skills), you believe that the
Independent State of Croatia was not a fascist state, and would like to edit the article to that effect, am I right? Well then, please present published sources to that effect or stop using this page as a forum. Remember, though, your sources must be in accordance with Wikipedia policy: they must be neutral,
WP:NPOV (no Croatian radical nationalist crap), and they must be in accordance with
WP:V.
Fire away. --
DIREKTOR (
TALK)
00:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, and some of us are serious users and others are weekend-editors, etc... I am not interested in your opinion. Wikipedia is not a forum. I do not care about your ideological views. I will not "give" you anything, you can keep your own little "theories" for your publisher (LoL). Your "gun", it is still very much silent on the sources front, whereas on the forum front it never stopped spewing. Where is the (published, reliable, scholarly) source that states the NDH was not a fascist state? You see, I can find you about twenty (published, reliable, scholarly) sources that state it was indeed a fascist state.
Found all this in 10 minutes on Google. I think that I actually could find twenty published sources describing the NDH as a fascist state, if I took the time. But wait, let me guess Ante: its all Jewish/Serb propaganda directed at world-domination, am I right? xD -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 12:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
No one asked me? I KNOW no one "asked me", if you had the mental capability you might have figured out that I'm posting this to show how plentiful and abundant the "pro-fascist" sources are. Oh, and I have to say you are priceless! :) I can not believe you're actually claiming Britannica is biased?! Those poor professional historians and encyclopedia scholars, they've been deluded by Serbian propaganda, right? They should have seen through the yugocommunist-serbochetnik crap they've been using as primary sources. Looks like a lifetime of experience and historical study is insufficient to see through propaganda. Luckily old Ante is here to tell us about The TruthTM, aren't you A.P.? How do you know this about the bibliographies of Britannica and the two other works? Can you show us their bibliography, I didn't notice a link? What? are we supposed to take your word for the unreliability of the authors' sources?
The level of your indoctrination is unprecedented in my experience. However, let us concentrate for now on the fact that you have not yet presented a single professional opinion that even hinted to the possibility that the NDH was somehow not a fascist state.
Not that it would make much difference, though. Even if you did somehow manage to find some loon out there with a degree that's as indoctrinated as you are, he'd be outnumbered ten to one. There is absolutely no way you will ever be able to remove the epithet "fascist" from the NDH on this encyclopedia (or on any encyclopedia, for that matter).
Sigh. I asked you to please stop using this page as a forum on the NDH. This page is for discussing changes to the article. Your changes are completely inconceivable without sources. A discussion (without sources) on this issue is an empty chat-room-like debate. I will respond only to sources you may present (everyone else will probably ignore even that), any unfounded controversial edits to the article will be reverted. Edit-warring will be reported. You should also know that removing pointless chatter from the article talkpage is encouraged (in accordance with WP:NOTFORUM). I'll be sure to read it first, though: it may be useful for my psychiatry studies, as well a being among the funniest stuff one can expect to hear around Wikipedia. Have fun. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 23:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
The fact that my level of indoctrination is unprecedented is because I actually know about NDH. Not every NDH entry in every piece of literature calls NDH a fascist state - the problem lies within the actual minimal knowledge people have about the politics, geopolitics, demographics and economics of NDH. If anyone were to understand that, they could logically - without any sources on NDH itself, merely just on fascism, could determine that it was not in fact fascist. It was a very national, authoritative state; even then more so due to the circumstances Croats were surrounded by thanks to Versailles, but according to logical breakdown in comparisons with real self-proclaimed fascist state, NDH does not meet the standard. AP1929 ( talk) 17:36, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Again old story and old editorial style. Statements like "Pavelić's Ustaše regime was arguably the most murderous, in relation to its size, in Axis-occupied Europe" are 100 % against wikipedia editorial style. I can maybe agree with that because in NDH around 10 % of population is killed during WWII, but it is still against wikipedia editorial style.
We can all agree that Pol Pot regime is most murderous, in relation to its size during 20 century, but we are without this sort of statements. I have not deleted statement, only because of my other disputes.-- Rjecina ( talk) 06:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
'...Around twenty-four concentration camps were set up in Croatia, the most deadly of them being at Jasenovac where Allied estimates prove that 750,000 Serbs, Jews and Gypsies were murdered...'
Actually, if one goes to the Wikipedia article for 'Ustashi,' there is an exhaustive discussion of the total number of deaths at Jasenovac.
The gist is that just what that number would be is quite uncertain -- but '750,000' is clearly at the high end. The range starts around 60,000. Certainly it's inaccurate to claim that the higher figure has been 'proven' to be accurate. It could easily be eight times the true figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.207.248.92 ( talk) 06:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
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