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Ann would not have known in the summer of 1961 that Obama Sr would be going to Harvard over a year later, so this interpretation of Maraniss's report about Botkin's "and others" recollections can't be right. Maraniss says it was in 1962, after her husband went to Cambridge, so the assertion that she said she was going to join him in Cambridge in 1961 is not supported by that source - so what is the implication here (and why are we making an implication)? Maraniss reports that Botkin and others recall that she was on the way to Boston when she visited in 1962 and that she returned to Seattle because it didn't work out. How are we to understand "she was leaving the next day to join her husband in Boston"? That someone was lying? All of these statements are largely based on old memories, and the details may be off, but we should not be interpreting them. This section is veering into synthesis and OR - we do not have reliable sources that clearly lay out the scenario that has been included in the article, and I think we need to wait until we do, since we have sources that contradict parts of it I also question the reliability of the Seattle Museum of Mysteries website. Tvoz/ talk 08:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Further: several sources refer to the 1961 Seattle appearance with the infant Barack as a "visit" (Brodeur, Martin, Blake interview), "brief" (Martin, Blake interview), "passed through"(Montgomery) - which lends credence to the possibility that she visited Seattle in 1961 when the baby was born, and returned sometime later. And there are many sources that talk about Obama Sr leaving Ann and the baby, not the other way around which is being suggested here. We need to accommodate differing sources. Tvoz/ talk 09:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
←I've said it over and over. Maraniss - again, a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist - says that what happened in 1961/62 is not clear. All I am trying to do right now is to have our article reflect that it is not clear - not just buried in a footnote, but in the text, as I had it. Some sources say one thing, others say something else, and yes, I give an in-depth researched article more weight than a sketchy travel piece. You are making definitive statements about this, and I am saying that we need to allow that recollections differ and say so in the text. And yes, I think the Washington Post's editorial oversight is more reliable than the Seattle Gay News in this instance who merely lifted a local-interest piece and reprinted it. Time magazine, the NYT, Washpo, and the others I cited above paint a picture of Sr leaving Ann and Barack, not the other way around, as I've said repeatedly. I don't know which one is true, and neither do you, but you insist on spelling out your belief that she left him, for what reason I don't know. I have offered compromise wording several times here that accommodates both scenarios and yet your edits always come back to an insistence on the narrative you prefer. You have ignored my question about undue weight, and when I asked why this matter is important I clearly was not suggesting that it is not important to be accurate - you know better than that, but that's how you answered. Try the compromise - I for one am tired of this back and forth and maybe you have better things to do too. And finally, you asked for a citation in a footnote that was itself the citation - I don't know what you want there. The article cited has erroneous information, which Newross listed in the footnote when he wrote it, and it follows the colon in the footnote: Ann did not die of breast cancer, Barack did not go to Kenya in 1985, Sr was not a Muslim, said twice. I would be happy to leave off the entire source and the text it is attached to - I believe Newross is making the point that the quote from the Daily Mail should be viewed in the context of the fact that the article is full of other errors. Tvoz/ talk 00:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Susan [Botkin] Blake (Stanley Ann Dunham's high school classmate):
She came to visit briefly one afternoon in 1961 when Barry was just a few weeks old.
Um, she, we were sitting at my Mom’s house, late August afternoon, ...
Box last saw her friend in 1961, when she visited Seattle on her way from Honolulu to Massachusetts, where her then-husband was attending Harvard.
"She seemed very happy and very proud," she said.
"She had this beautiful, healthy baby.
I can see them right now."
Susan Blake, another high-school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya.
"We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself," said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman.
The marriage was brief.
By 1962, Dunham had returned to Seattle as a single mother, enrolling in the UW for spring quarter and living in an apartment on Capitol Hill.
But friends said she got overwhelmed and returned to her family in Hawaii, and formally divorced Obama Sr. in 1964.
But all doubts dissipated when she passed through Mercer Island in 1961 with her month-old son.
"She was so proud of her baby, so relaxed, so self-possessed - excited about the future," said Blake, who changed Barry's diaper.
Her husband finished his degree, graduating in June 1962, after three years in Hawaii, as a Phi Beta Kappa straight-A student.
Then, before the month was out, he took off, leaving behind his still-teenage wife and namesake child.
He did not return for 10 years, and then only briefly.
A story in the Star-Bulletin on the day he left, June 22, said Obama planned a several-weeks grand tour of mainland universities before he arrived at Harvard to study economics on a graduate faculty fellowship.
But there is an unresolved part of the story: Did Ann try to follow him to Cambridge?
Her friends from Mercer Island were left with that impression.
Susan Botkin, Maxine Box and John W. Hunt all remember Ann showing up in Seattle late that summer with little Barry, as her son was called.
"She was on her way from her mother's house to Boston to be with her husband," Botkin recalled.
"[She said] he had transferred to grad school and she was going to join him.
And I was intrigued with who she was and what she was doing.
Stanley was an intense person . . . but I remember that afternoon, sitting in my mother's living room, drinking iced tea and eating sugar cookies.
She had her baby and was talking about her husband, and what life held in store for her.
She seemed so confident and self-assured and relaxed.
She was leaving the next day to fly on to Boston."
But as Botkin and others later remembered it, something happened in Cambridge, and Stanley Ann returned to Seattle.
They saw her a few more times, and they thought she even tried to enroll in classes at the University of Washington, before she packed up and returned to Hawaii.
The real purpose of this trip, however, may have been different than Stanley Ann Dunham described to her friends. In August, 1961, she enrolled in a University of Washington extension course. Between August, 1961 and March 1962, she enrolled in a total of four extension courses at the University of Washington, earning a total of 20 credits for her work in those courses, no small feat, considering that graduation required 180 credits, and the typical full time student earned 45 credits a year. Neither Box nor Blake has any recollection of Stanley Ann telling them she was enrolling on that same trip in extension courses at the University of Washington. (40)
(40) Stanley Ann Dunham’s enrollment at the University of Washington in the spring of 1962 was originally reported by Jonathan Martin of the Seattle Times in his April 8, 2008 article “Obama’s Mother Known Here as Uncommon.” The details of her enrollment were confirmed by the author in a phone interview with Tina Peterson, Academic Specialist of the University of Washington. Ms. Peterson reported that Stanley Dunham Obama registered first in four extension courses beginning in August, 1961 and ending in March, 1962. She earned 20 credits for successfully completing this courses. She also enrolled as a full time student in the spring quarter of 1962, which began in March 1962 and ended in June, 1962. She earned 10 credits that quarter.
During these months though she was visited by some classmates, she did not actively seek to re-connect with many of her Mercer High School friends, suggesting that perhaps she was not interesting in letting them know the painful details of her personal story. Good friend Maxine Box, whose mother fed her chocolate cake after school while the two girls did their home work, attended the University of Washington during this time, and was not even aware that Dunham was living in Seattle and also attending the University of Washington at this time.
High school friend John W. Hunt apparently visited her at her Laurelhurst student apartment or her Capitol Hill apartment, as did another class mate, Barbara Cannon Rusk. Rusk recalls visiting Stanley Ann Dunham and her baby son Barack at her apartment on Capitol Hill in Seattle shortly after the end of these spring quarter classes.
I had moved to Utah for a while after high school, and I came back to Seattle in the summer of 1962. I remember visiting the World's Fair, and then stopping by Stanley Ann's apartment on Capitol Hill. It was a small apartment, upstairs. It was after June, and could have been as late as September, 1962. I visited her for half a day or so. It was after the end of the spring quarter classes, and she wasn't in classes, and didn't have a job. I recall her being melancholy at the time. I had a sense that something wasn't right in her marriage. It was all very mysterious. First, her husband wasn't there, he was already off in Harvard. I didn't ask her about the relationship, feeling it was a private matter. My daughter Michelle was just a few weeks younger than Stanley's son, who she called Barry, and they played together on the floor. (44)
(44) Phone interview of Barbara Cannon Rusk by the author, August 23, 2008.
Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham was enrolled at the University of Washington for:
Autumn 1961
Winter 1962
Spring 1962
The records responsive to your request from the University of Washington are above as provided by the Public Disclosure Laws of Washington State. This concludes the University’s response to your Public Records request. Please feel free to contact our office if you have any questions or concerns.
Madolyne Lawson
Office of Public Records
206-543-9180
"The University of Hawaii at Manoa is only able to provide the following information for Stanley Ann Dunham:
Dates of attendance:
Fall 1960 (First day of instruction 9/26/1960)
Spring 1963 - Summer 1966
Fall 1972 - Fall 1974
Summer 1976
Spring 1978
Fall 1984 - Summer 1992
Degrees awarded:
BA - Mathematics, Summer 1967 (August 6, 1967)
MA - Anthropology, Fall 1983 (December 18, 1983)
PhD - Anthropology, Summer 1992 (August 9, 1992)
Sincerely,
Stuart Lau"
Stuart Lau
University Registrar
Office of Admissions and Records
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Ph: (808) 956-8010
Very little has been written about President-elect Barack Obama's mother Stanley Ann Dunham's time here in Seattle.
Brief articles and even briefer accounts from schoolmates make the person who was the most influential person in Obama's life all the more intriguing.
A single mother who enrolled in the University of Washington in 1961 and signed up for 1962 extension program, ...
Remembrance of the 44th president as a 7-month-old baby.
Toutonghi used to baby-sit President Obama when she was neighbors with his mother.
Dunham attended night classes a few days a week at the University of Washington, and needed someone to take care of her son.
She watched Obama a few times a week, for about three hours at a time.
Barack Obama II was born Aug. 4, 1961, when Dunham was 18.
Dunham left school to take care of the baby, and returned to Seattle while Obama Sr. finished college in Hawaii and left for graduate school at Harvard University.
She baby-sat for Dunham for two months, then she and her husband bought a house in the Government Hill section of Seattle and moved there, ...
She recalls as best she can the dates she baby sat Barack as her daughter was 18 months old and was born in July of 1959 and that would have placed the months of baby sitting Barack in January and February of 1962.
Mary strains to remember the days back over forty five years ago and relates that she did not know why Anna was in Seattle but remembers she was "anxious to get back to her husband."
Anna was taking night classes at the University of Washington and according to the University of Washington's registrar's office her major was listed as History.
She was enrolled at the University of Washington in the fall of 1961, took a full course load in the Spring of 1962 and had her transcript transferred to the University of Hawaii in the Fall of 1962.
Along with the Seattle Polk Directory, Marc Leavipp of the University of Washington Registrar¹s office confirms 516 13th Ave. E. was the address Ann Dunham had given upon registering at the University.
Soon after Barack was born, Dunham and her new son moved to Seattle.
They lived in Apartment 2 of the Villa Ria Apartments at 516 13th Avenue E on Capitol Hill, and she enrolled at the University of Washington.
But their stay was fairly short -- about a year -- and in 1962 they returned to Hawaii.
By this time the senior Barack Obama had left Hawaii to continue his education at Harvard, with eventual plans to return to his native Kenya with his family.
Dunham felt otherwise and filed for divorce in 1964.
Sources:
Ripley, Amanda (Apr 09, 2008). The story of Barack Obama’s mother. Time magazine
Jones, Tim (Mar 27, 2007). Barack Obama: Mother not just a girl from Kansas. Chicago Tribune
Martin, Jonathan (Apr 08, 2008). Obama's mother known here as "uncommon". Seattle Times
Payne, Patti (Jan 11, 2008). Obama’s mother went to Mercer Island High School; Rossi recalls WSJ. Puget Sound Business Journal
LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times
Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Iona Stenhouse, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington.
Barack Obama moves to Seattle in August or early September 1961.
Shortly after his birth on August 4, 1961, Barack Obama and his mother, 18-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham Obama, move to Seattle and rent an apartment in the Capitol Hill neighborhood.
She attends classes at the University of Washington during the 1961-1962 school year while simultaneously raising her infant son.
They will remain in Seattle for about a year; later in 1962 they will return to Hawaii.
President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, ...
... and not long after young Barack was born, she and her son -- her husband remained behind in Hawaii -- moved to Seattle.
It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time.
The new arrivals soon moved into an apartment house on Capitol Hill known as the Villa Ria Apartments, located at 516 13th Avenue E in Seattle (the building was torn down in 1985).
Dunham wasted no time getting on with her life once she and Barack settled in to their new apartment.
Records from the University of Washington confirm that she registered for the autumn 1961 quarter at the University of Washington, which began on September 25, 1961.
She listed her major as history.
However, other details are sketchy about their stay in Seattle.
Most of Dunham’s friends saw her only briefly, if at all.
But Maxine Box, Dunham’s closest friend in high school, describes a visit in the spring of 1962 with Dunham and Barack at the Capitol Hill apartment: ...
Dunham also registered for classes at the University of Washington for both the winter and spring quarters of 1962, taking a full load of classes that spring, and neighbor Toutonghi periodically babysat Barack for a couple of months while Dunham attended night classes.
But what Dunham and her young son did in Seattle after the end of the 1962 spring quarter is mostly a mystery, though they stayed for at least part of the summer of 1962.
High school classmate Barbara Rusk recalls visiting them at the Capitol Hill apartment during that summer, noting that Dunham was not in school or working at the time.
Other friends have also suggested the two stayed through at least part if not all of the summer.
But in the autumn of 1962 Dunham transferred her transcript to the University of Hawaii, and enrolled there in the spring quarter of 1963.
Sources:
Dougherty, Phil (Feb 07, 2009). Stanley Ann Dunham, mother of Barack Obama, graduates from Mercer Island High School in 1960. HistoryLink.org
LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times
Neyman, Jenny (Jan 20, 200). Obama Baby Sitter Awaits New Era -- Soldotna Woman Eager For Former Charge’s Reign. Redoubt Reporter
LeFevre, Charlette; Lipson, Philip; co-directors, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 28, 2009). Baby Sitting Barack Obama on Seattle's Capitol Hill. Seattle Museum of the Mysteries
Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, and February 7, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington.
I'm willing to believe that Ann and her newborn son Barack Obama moved to Seattle by August or September 1961 and that Ann attended the University of Washington for the 1961–1962 academic year, I just wish the sourcing for this didn't rely so heavily on articles by the co-directors of "Washington State's only paranormal science museum." Newross ( talk) 06:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC) Newross ( talk) 15:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Per Template: Infobox Person, we do not use both the "nationality" and "citizenship" parameters when they are the same: Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ. Tvoz/ talk 02:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Do her friends and family most commonly call her Ann or Anna or?-- 69.196.188.171 ( talk) 21:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
It's nice that Duke University Press will publish Dunham's dissertation as a book, but the proper time to put this in the article is when it comes out. As I know too well, not all announced books ever make it to print, although this time, the author can't make revisions;-) Bellagio99 ( talk) 01:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Paternal and maternal is jargon, it just means the direct line. Was changing it because not ALL of her father's ancestor were from Indiana, just the the direct paternal line (father's father's parents) and same with the Arkansas maternal line (mother's mother' parents) Cladeal832 ( talk) 19:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I've consolidated the sections on her ancestry to one, by moving the text down to where the chart is . Although obviously chronologically her ancestry comes before her early life, having a separate section up front as the first section of text doesn't make sense for a biography of her whole life, and then having a second section below for the chart (which I am not sure is even needed here) I think gives more weight than is appropriate. I also rearranged the early life section which jumped around and was repetitive. Tvoz/ talk 00:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems a bit misleading to describe her only a "liberal" and "feminist". [1] Kauffner ( talk) 04:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor would like to expand the Ann Dunham page to include purported details about Ann's father's "native European" ancestry. I have reverted twice, and would appreciate some comment. My reasons for reverting:
Bellagio99 ( talk) 13:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
← I agree with Bellagio's reverts and the arguments stated here by him and Viriditas. This is not an article on Ann Dunham's ancestry, it's her overall biography. Indeed, I think there is more emphasis here even now on ancestry than is warranted - I would like to shorten the section, remove the chart, and point to the individual articles on her parents where the reconstructed charts could go. Tvoz/ talk 19:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
A paragraph has been added regarding a posthumous baptism by the Mormon church. Seems to me that this does not belong in this biography, as it is not reflective of her own beliefs or decisions. Posthumous studying of her anthropological work is relevant, because it is of her work - but this baptism really seems to have nothing to do with her. Thoughts? Tvoz/ talk 06:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
She was posthumously baptized by the Mormon church during Barack Obama's presidential campaign. [1]
I am glad to see this item was removed. In relation to posthumous or vicarious baptisms, the likelihood is that this a case of straw man rhetoric. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has specific guidelines outlining the appropriateness of performing family proxy ordinances.
in the article posted on Wikipedia (Baptism for the Dead) we read, "..To be sensitive to the issue of proxy baptizing for non-Mormons that are not related to Church members, the Church in recent years has published a general policy of performing temple ordinances only for direct ancestors of Church members. For example, the Church is in the process of removing sensitive names (such as Jewish Holocaust victims) from its International Genealogical Index (IGI)."
It is also important to recognize the spirit with which the LDS people approach Baptism for the Dead. When a proxy baptism is performed it is clearly understood that it is completely predicated upon the principle of free agency, or the deceased individual's acceptance of the ordinance. As the Church teaches, "God will force no man to Heaven." For this reason it is important to recognize that while it is against Church policy to perform proxy baptisms for individuals not directly related to a Church member, there are likely to be cases of well-intending Church members performing baptisms which might contradict this Church policy. But from my observations, the Church is moving very quickly and sincerely to inform members of these policies and to remove names which might be inappropriately insensitive to others (as is the case with Holocaust victims).
From this perspective and context it should be clear that listing information (true or speculative) on whether a famous individual has been a recipient of proxy LDS work is in many cases simply inflammatory. If an individual has a sincere concern concerning whether a deceased person has received proxy work, they would be better off expressing their concerns by contacting the Church directly (lds.org) and communicating their concerns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.147.225 ( talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed the part of the article mentioning stomach pain after dinner, and a diagnosis of indigestion by a local doctor. Since none of us were there in the consultation room, it seems that inclusion of this anecdote is overweighted. There's an inference of negligence in my mind, against the physician that saw her, and maybe as well some inference about medical attention in general in Indonesia. There's also some sense of proximate cause resulting in death due to an untimely diagnosis of cancer. Without a finding of fact by a medical board, or an opinion by a medical professional that can be cited, it is irresponsible to include this information from a Time magazine article. For all we really know, that incidence may have been in part indigestion, or probably the doctor's opinion would have been totally discounted, and a second opinion sought. See where this goes sliding into conjecture within seconds? Stick to relevent proveable facts, please. 121.1.18.242 ( talk) 02:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
There is substantial, documented evidence, including a transcript, that Dunham attended the University of Washington in August 1961. You may not like the source (WND) but a transcript is a transcript: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=106018 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.40.2 ( talk) 23:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The transcript shown by the link is substantial, documented evidence that Dunham DID NOT attend the University of Washington in August 1961. The classes cited are under the section titled EXTENSION & CORRESPONDENCE COURSES, which means that they were not taken on campus. Her first courses actually taken on campus are posted in the main section and dated SPRING QTR 62, which points to a timeframe around April thru June of '62. Notice how the other set of extension courses end on 03/15/62. If she had attended the University of Washington starting Fall Qtr 61, the classes and grades would posted in the main section and WOULD NOT have been preceded by an X (for extension courses).
It appears that despite having an infant to take care of, she continued her studies for two quarters by taking a pair of extension classes (possibly night classes). JackOL31 ( talk) 17:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
More info at http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107889
This is what we know from the images only.
and Spring '62 courses.
With extension courses one doesn't know the actual timeframe of study. Extension courses are mainly self-study so while technically enrolled from 08/19/61-12/12/61, she could have started in say, September after the clock started ticking. If there was an actual class, she could have missed the initial classes. So, all we know is that she did attend UW during the Fall '61 Quarter and completed those courses, but the information on the transcripts does not necessarily support WND's conclusion that she was physically present on 8/19. So, we could show the transcript information, but we have no solid information regarding dates for her arrival in Seattle. I can't find transcript information anywhere other than WND (or forks) so I guess there is nothing to add. JackOL31 ( talk) 03:47, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Currently the page says "Dunham met Lolo Soetoro, a student from Indonesia.[28] They married in 1966 or 1967" Are we sure they got married since we don't have an exact date and are fuzzy on the year? 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 15:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
A user has repeatedly inserted extended discussion into the Ann Dunham page about other wives. Without commenting on the reliability of this material, I have reverted it because it would be more appropriately placed -- if valid and reliable -- on President Obama's father's page with a brief mention here. The paragraph is not really about Ann Dunham but about her ex-husband. Bellagio99 ( talk) 18:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia's policy is to avoid extra emphasize on ethnicity unless it is relevant to the article. Therefore, I will remove ethnicity from her infobox unless good reasons are proposed. -- And Rew 21:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be some dispute about whether Dunham's University of Hawaii BA was in Anthropology or Mathematics. All the objective sources(articles in the newspapers; the 1/09 issue of the UH magazine Malamala, etc.) support the latter. There is also a scan of a letter from the Registrar to this effect, though that seems to only be available for viewing on 'birther' sites so could be forged (though it is hard to imagine how the field of the degree would help their argument).
On the other hand, in comments to the Malamalama article op cit, someone in the UH Anthropology Dept. recalls her studying there as an undergraduate, and this is repeated in the Dewey article now linked to. These recollections are hardly definitive as to the official degree, unless the UH Anthropolgy Dept. at that time categorically did not accept students with degrees in other fields. Dunham probably did study in that department as an undergrad, but that doesn't mean her BA was there; she might have changed her declaration for technical reasons (eg, to better meet distribution requirements). This is not uncommon, especially for nontraditional students, though if she really had enough upper-division mathematics to switch majors at the last minute that would be very impressive.
On balance, there seems to be at least as much evidence that the degree was in math as that the degree was in anthro; the article should either be changed back, or made neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.210.136 ( talk) 22:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Ann would not have known in the summer of 1961 that Obama Sr would be going to Harvard over a year later, so this interpretation of Maraniss's report about Botkin's "and others" recollections can't be right. Maraniss says it was in 1962, after her husband went to Cambridge, so the assertion that she said she was going to join him in Cambridge in 1961 is not supported by that source - so what is the implication here (and why are we making an implication)? Maraniss reports that Botkin and others recall that she was on the way to Boston when she visited in 1962 and that she returned to Seattle because it didn't work out. How are we to understand "she was leaving the next day to join her husband in Boston"? That someone was lying? All of these statements are largely based on old memories, and the details may be off, but we should not be interpreting them. This section is veering into synthesis and OR - we do not have reliable sources that clearly lay out the scenario that has been included in the article, and I think we need to wait until we do, since we have sources that contradict parts of it I also question the reliability of the Seattle Museum of Mysteries website. Tvoz/ talk 08:38, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Further: several sources refer to the 1961 Seattle appearance with the infant Barack as a "visit" (Brodeur, Martin, Blake interview), "brief" (Martin, Blake interview), "passed through"(Montgomery) - which lends credence to the possibility that she visited Seattle in 1961 when the baby was born, and returned sometime later. And there are many sources that talk about Obama Sr leaving Ann and the baby, not the other way around which is being suggested here. We need to accommodate differing sources. Tvoz/ talk 09:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
←I've said it over and over. Maraniss - again, a Pulitzer-Prize winning journalist - says that what happened in 1961/62 is not clear. All I am trying to do right now is to have our article reflect that it is not clear - not just buried in a footnote, but in the text, as I had it. Some sources say one thing, others say something else, and yes, I give an in-depth researched article more weight than a sketchy travel piece. You are making definitive statements about this, and I am saying that we need to allow that recollections differ and say so in the text. And yes, I think the Washington Post's editorial oversight is more reliable than the Seattle Gay News in this instance who merely lifted a local-interest piece and reprinted it. Time magazine, the NYT, Washpo, and the others I cited above paint a picture of Sr leaving Ann and Barack, not the other way around, as I've said repeatedly. I don't know which one is true, and neither do you, but you insist on spelling out your belief that she left him, for what reason I don't know. I have offered compromise wording several times here that accommodates both scenarios and yet your edits always come back to an insistence on the narrative you prefer. You have ignored my question about undue weight, and when I asked why this matter is important I clearly was not suggesting that it is not important to be accurate - you know better than that, but that's how you answered. Try the compromise - I for one am tired of this back and forth and maybe you have better things to do too. And finally, you asked for a citation in a footnote that was itself the citation - I don't know what you want there. The article cited has erroneous information, which Newross listed in the footnote when he wrote it, and it follows the colon in the footnote: Ann did not die of breast cancer, Barack did not go to Kenya in 1985, Sr was not a Muslim, said twice. I would be happy to leave off the entire source and the text it is attached to - I believe Newross is making the point that the quote from the Daily Mail should be viewed in the context of the fact that the article is full of other errors. Tvoz/ talk 00:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Susan [Botkin] Blake (Stanley Ann Dunham's high school classmate):
She came to visit briefly one afternoon in 1961 when Barry was just a few weeks old.
Um, she, we were sitting at my Mom’s house, late August afternoon, ...
Box last saw her friend in 1961, when she visited Seattle on her way from Honolulu to Massachusetts, where her then-husband was attending Harvard.
"She seemed very happy and very proud," she said.
"She had this beautiful, healthy baby.
I can see them right now."
Susan Blake, another high-school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya.
"We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself," said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman.
The marriage was brief.
By 1962, Dunham had returned to Seattle as a single mother, enrolling in the UW for spring quarter and living in an apartment on Capitol Hill.
But friends said she got overwhelmed and returned to her family in Hawaii, and formally divorced Obama Sr. in 1964.
But all doubts dissipated when she passed through Mercer Island in 1961 with her month-old son.
"She was so proud of her baby, so relaxed, so self-possessed - excited about the future," said Blake, who changed Barry's diaper.
Her husband finished his degree, graduating in June 1962, after three years in Hawaii, as a Phi Beta Kappa straight-A student.
Then, before the month was out, he took off, leaving behind his still-teenage wife and namesake child.
He did not return for 10 years, and then only briefly.
A story in the Star-Bulletin on the day he left, June 22, said Obama planned a several-weeks grand tour of mainland universities before he arrived at Harvard to study economics on a graduate faculty fellowship.
But there is an unresolved part of the story: Did Ann try to follow him to Cambridge?
Her friends from Mercer Island were left with that impression.
Susan Botkin, Maxine Box and John W. Hunt all remember Ann showing up in Seattle late that summer with little Barry, as her son was called.
"She was on her way from her mother's house to Boston to be with her husband," Botkin recalled.
"[She said] he had transferred to grad school and she was going to join him.
And I was intrigued with who she was and what she was doing.
Stanley was an intense person . . . but I remember that afternoon, sitting in my mother's living room, drinking iced tea and eating sugar cookies.
She had her baby and was talking about her husband, and what life held in store for her.
She seemed so confident and self-assured and relaxed.
She was leaving the next day to fly on to Boston."
But as Botkin and others later remembered it, something happened in Cambridge, and Stanley Ann returned to Seattle.
They saw her a few more times, and they thought she even tried to enroll in classes at the University of Washington, before she packed up and returned to Hawaii.
The real purpose of this trip, however, may have been different than Stanley Ann Dunham described to her friends. In August, 1961, she enrolled in a University of Washington extension course. Between August, 1961 and March 1962, she enrolled in a total of four extension courses at the University of Washington, earning a total of 20 credits for her work in those courses, no small feat, considering that graduation required 180 credits, and the typical full time student earned 45 credits a year. Neither Box nor Blake has any recollection of Stanley Ann telling them she was enrolling on that same trip in extension courses at the University of Washington. (40)
(40) Stanley Ann Dunham’s enrollment at the University of Washington in the spring of 1962 was originally reported by Jonathan Martin of the Seattle Times in his April 8, 2008 article “Obama’s Mother Known Here as Uncommon.” The details of her enrollment were confirmed by the author in a phone interview with Tina Peterson, Academic Specialist of the University of Washington. Ms. Peterson reported that Stanley Dunham Obama registered first in four extension courses beginning in August, 1961 and ending in March, 1962. She earned 20 credits for successfully completing this courses. She also enrolled as a full time student in the spring quarter of 1962, which began in March 1962 and ended in June, 1962. She earned 10 credits that quarter.
During these months though she was visited by some classmates, she did not actively seek to re-connect with many of her Mercer High School friends, suggesting that perhaps she was not interesting in letting them know the painful details of her personal story. Good friend Maxine Box, whose mother fed her chocolate cake after school while the two girls did their home work, attended the University of Washington during this time, and was not even aware that Dunham was living in Seattle and also attending the University of Washington at this time.
High school friend John W. Hunt apparently visited her at her Laurelhurst student apartment or her Capitol Hill apartment, as did another class mate, Barbara Cannon Rusk. Rusk recalls visiting Stanley Ann Dunham and her baby son Barack at her apartment on Capitol Hill in Seattle shortly after the end of these spring quarter classes.
I had moved to Utah for a while after high school, and I came back to Seattle in the summer of 1962. I remember visiting the World's Fair, and then stopping by Stanley Ann's apartment on Capitol Hill. It was a small apartment, upstairs. It was after June, and could have been as late as September, 1962. I visited her for half a day or so. It was after the end of the spring quarter classes, and she wasn't in classes, and didn't have a job. I recall her being melancholy at the time. I had a sense that something wasn't right in her marriage. It was all very mysterious. First, her husband wasn't there, he was already off in Harvard. I didn't ask her about the relationship, feeling it was a private matter. My daughter Michelle was just a few weeks younger than Stanley's son, who she called Barry, and they played together on the floor. (44)
(44) Phone interview of Barbara Cannon Rusk by the author, August 23, 2008.
Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham was enrolled at the University of Washington for:
Autumn 1961
Winter 1962
Spring 1962
The records responsive to your request from the University of Washington are above as provided by the Public Disclosure Laws of Washington State. This concludes the University’s response to your Public Records request. Please feel free to contact our office if you have any questions or concerns.
Madolyne Lawson
Office of Public Records
206-543-9180
"The University of Hawaii at Manoa is only able to provide the following information for Stanley Ann Dunham:
Dates of attendance:
Fall 1960 (First day of instruction 9/26/1960)
Spring 1963 - Summer 1966
Fall 1972 - Fall 1974
Summer 1976
Spring 1978
Fall 1984 - Summer 1992
Degrees awarded:
BA - Mathematics, Summer 1967 (August 6, 1967)
MA - Anthropology, Fall 1983 (December 18, 1983)
PhD - Anthropology, Summer 1992 (August 9, 1992)
Sincerely,
Stuart Lau"
Stuart Lau
University Registrar
Office of Admissions and Records
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Ph: (808) 956-8010
Very little has been written about President-elect Barack Obama's mother Stanley Ann Dunham's time here in Seattle.
Brief articles and even briefer accounts from schoolmates make the person who was the most influential person in Obama's life all the more intriguing.
A single mother who enrolled in the University of Washington in 1961 and signed up for 1962 extension program, ...
Remembrance of the 44th president as a 7-month-old baby.
Toutonghi used to baby-sit President Obama when she was neighbors with his mother.
Dunham attended night classes a few days a week at the University of Washington, and needed someone to take care of her son.
She watched Obama a few times a week, for about three hours at a time.
Barack Obama II was born Aug. 4, 1961, when Dunham was 18.
Dunham left school to take care of the baby, and returned to Seattle while Obama Sr. finished college in Hawaii and left for graduate school at Harvard University.
She baby-sat for Dunham for two months, then she and her husband bought a house in the Government Hill section of Seattle and moved there, ...
She recalls as best she can the dates she baby sat Barack as her daughter was 18 months old and was born in July of 1959 and that would have placed the months of baby sitting Barack in January and February of 1962.
Mary strains to remember the days back over forty five years ago and relates that she did not know why Anna was in Seattle but remembers she was "anxious to get back to her husband."
Anna was taking night classes at the University of Washington and according to the University of Washington's registrar's office her major was listed as History.
She was enrolled at the University of Washington in the fall of 1961, took a full course load in the Spring of 1962 and had her transcript transferred to the University of Hawaii in the Fall of 1962.
Along with the Seattle Polk Directory, Marc Leavipp of the University of Washington Registrar¹s office confirms 516 13th Ave. E. was the address Ann Dunham had given upon registering at the University.
Soon after Barack was born, Dunham and her new son moved to Seattle.
They lived in Apartment 2 of the Villa Ria Apartments at 516 13th Avenue E on Capitol Hill, and she enrolled at the University of Washington.
But their stay was fairly short -- about a year -- and in 1962 they returned to Hawaii.
By this time the senior Barack Obama had left Hawaii to continue his education at Harvard, with eventual plans to return to his native Kenya with his family.
Dunham felt otherwise and filed for divorce in 1964.
Sources:
Ripley, Amanda (Apr 09, 2008). The story of Barack Obama’s mother. Time magazine
Jones, Tim (Mar 27, 2007). Barack Obama: Mother not just a girl from Kansas. Chicago Tribune
Martin, Jonathan (Apr 08, 2008). Obama's mother known here as "uncommon". Seattle Times
Payne, Patti (Jan 11, 2008). Obama’s mother went to Mercer Island High School; Rossi recalls WSJ. Puget Sound Business Journal
LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times
Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Iona Stenhouse, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington.
Barack Obama moves to Seattle in August or early September 1961.
Shortly after his birth on August 4, 1961, Barack Obama and his mother, 18-year-old Stanley Ann Dunham Obama, move to Seattle and rent an apartment in the Capitol Hill neighborhood.
She attends classes at the University of Washington during the 1961-1962 school year while simultaneously raising her infant son.
They will remain in Seattle for about a year; later in 1962 they will return to Hawaii.
President Barack Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961, ...
... and not long after young Barack was born, she and her son -- her husband remained behind in Hawaii -- moved to Seattle.
It appears that they arrived around the end of August 1961, as two of her friends recall Dunham returning to Mercer Island and visiting her and the new baby about this time.
The new arrivals soon moved into an apartment house on Capitol Hill known as the Villa Ria Apartments, located at 516 13th Avenue E in Seattle (the building was torn down in 1985).
Dunham wasted no time getting on with her life once she and Barack settled in to their new apartment.
Records from the University of Washington confirm that she registered for the autumn 1961 quarter at the University of Washington, which began on September 25, 1961.
She listed her major as history.
However, other details are sketchy about their stay in Seattle.
Most of Dunham’s friends saw her only briefly, if at all.
But Maxine Box, Dunham’s closest friend in high school, describes a visit in the spring of 1962 with Dunham and Barack at the Capitol Hill apartment: ...
Dunham also registered for classes at the University of Washington for both the winter and spring quarters of 1962, taking a full load of classes that spring, and neighbor Toutonghi periodically babysat Barack for a couple of months while Dunham attended night classes.
But what Dunham and her young son did in Seattle after the end of the 1962 spring quarter is mostly a mystery, though they stayed for at least part of the summer of 1962.
High school classmate Barbara Rusk recalls visiting them at the Capitol Hill apartment during that summer, noting that Dunham was not in school or working at the time.
Other friends have also suggested the two stayed through at least part if not all of the summer.
But in the autumn of 1962 Dunham transferred her transcript to the University of Hawaii, and enrolled there in the spring quarter of 1963.
Sources:
Dougherty, Phil (Feb 07, 2009). Stanley Ann Dunham, mother of Barack Obama, graduates from Mercer Island High School in 1960. HistoryLink.org
LeFevre, Charlette; co-director, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 09, 2009). Barack Obama: From Capitol Hill to Capitol Hill. Capitol Hill Times
Neyman, Jenny (Jan 20, 200). Obama Baby Sitter Awaits New Era -- Soldotna Woman Eager For Former Charge’s Reign. Redoubt Reporter
LeFevre, Charlette; Lipson, Philip; co-directors, Seattle Museum of the Mysteries (Jan 28, 2009). Baby Sitting Barack Obama on Seattle's Capitol Hill. Seattle Museum of the Mysteries
Dougherty, Phil interview of Maxine Box, February 5, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Susan Blake, January 18, 2009, Seattle Washington
Dougherty, Phil interview of Tony Nugent, January 13, 2009, Seattle, Washington
Dougherty, Phil emails from Tony Nugent, January 19, January 23, January 31, February 2, and February 7, 2009, in possession of Phil Dougherty, Sammamish, Washington.
I'm willing to believe that Ann and her newborn son Barack Obama moved to Seattle by August or September 1961 and that Ann attended the University of Washington for the 1961–1962 academic year, I just wish the sourcing for this didn't rely so heavily on articles by the co-directors of "Washington State's only paranormal science museum." Newross ( talk) 06:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC) Newross ( talk) 15:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Per Template: Infobox Person, we do not use both the "nationality" and "citizenship" parameters when they are the same: Nationality. May be used instead of citizenship (below) or vice versa in cases where any confusion could result. Should only be used with citizenship when they somehow differ. Tvoz/ talk 02:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Do her friends and family most commonly call her Ann or Anna or?-- 69.196.188.171 ( talk) 21:16, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
It's nice that Duke University Press will publish Dunham's dissertation as a book, but the proper time to put this in the article is when it comes out. As I know too well, not all announced books ever make it to print, although this time, the author can't make revisions;-) Bellagio99 ( talk) 01:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Paternal and maternal is jargon, it just means the direct line. Was changing it because not ALL of her father's ancestor were from Indiana, just the the direct paternal line (father's father's parents) and same with the Arkansas maternal line (mother's mother' parents) Cladeal832 ( talk) 19:13, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
I've consolidated the sections on her ancestry to one, by moving the text down to where the chart is . Although obviously chronologically her ancestry comes before her early life, having a separate section up front as the first section of text doesn't make sense for a biography of her whole life, and then having a second section below for the chart (which I am not sure is even needed here) I think gives more weight than is appropriate. I also rearranged the early life section which jumped around and was repetitive. Tvoz/ talk 00:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems a bit misleading to describe her only a "liberal" and "feminist". [1] Kauffner ( talk) 04:23, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
An IP editor would like to expand the Ann Dunham page to include purported details about Ann's father's "native European" ancestry. I have reverted twice, and would appreciate some comment. My reasons for reverting:
Bellagio99 ( talk) 13:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
← I agree with Bellagio's reverts and the arguments stated here by him and Viriditas. This is not an article on Ann Dunham's ancestry, it's her overall biography. Indeed, I think there is more emphasis here even now on ancestry than is warranted - I would like to shorten the section, remove the chart, and point to the individual articles on her parents where the reconstructed charts could go. Tvoz/ talk 19:50, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
A paragraph has been added regarding a posthumous baptism by the Mormon church. Seems to me that this does not belong in this biography, as it is not reflective of her own beliefs or decisions. Posthumous studying of her anthropological work is relevant, because it is of her work - but this baptism really seems to have nothing to do with her. Thoughts? Tvoz/ talk 06:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
She was posthumously baptized by the Mormon church during Barack Obama's presidential campaign. [1]
I am glad to see this item was removed. In relation to posthumous or vicarious baptisms, the likelihood is that this a case of straw man rhetoric. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has specific guidelines outlining the appropriateness of performing family proxy ordinances.
in the article posted on Wikipedia (Baptism for the Dead) we read, "..To be sensitive to the issue of proxy baptizing for non-Mormons that are not related to Church members, the Church in recent years has published a general policy of performing temple ordinances only for direct ancestors of Church members. For example, the Church is in the process of removing sensitive names (such as Jewish Holocaust victims) from its International Genealogical Index (IGI)."
It is also important to recognize the spirit with which the LDS people approach Baptism for the Dead. When a proxy baptism is performed it is clearly understood that it is completely predicated upon the principle of free agency, or the deceased individual's acceptance of the ordinance. As the Church teaches, "God will force no man to Heaven." For this reason it is important to recognize that while it is against Church policy to perform proxy baptisms for individuals not directly related to a Church member, there are likely to be cases of well-intending Church members performing baptisms which might contradict this Church policy. But from my observations, the Church is moving very quickly and sincerely to inform members of these policies and to remove names which might be inappropriately insensitive to others (as is the case with Holocaust victims).
From this perspective and context it should be clear that listing information (true or speculative) on whether a famous individual has been a recipient of proxy LDS work is in many cases simply inflammatory. If an individual has a sincere concern concerning whether a deceased person has received proxy work, they would be better off expressing their concerns by contacting the Church directly (lds.org) and communicating their concerns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.199.147.225 ( talk) 07:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I noticed the part of the article mentioning stomach pain after dinner, and a diagnosis of indigestion by a local doctor. Since none of us were there in the consultation room, it seems that inclusion of this anecdote is overweighted. There's an inference of negligence in my mind, against the physician that saw her, and maybe as well some inference about medical attention in general in Indonesia. There's also some sense of proximate cause resulting in death due to an untimely diagnosis of cancer. Without a finding of fact by a medical board, or an opinion by a medical professional that can be cited, it is irresponsible to include this information from a Time magazine article. For all we really know, that incidence may have been in part indigestion, or probably the doctor's opinion would have been totally discounted, and a second opinion sought. See where this goes sliding into conjecture within seconds? Stick to relevent proveable facts, please. 121.1.18.242 ( talk) 02:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
There is substantial, documented evidence, including a transcript, that Dunham attended the University of Washington in August 1961. You may not like the source (WND) but a transcript is a transcript: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=106018 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.40.2 ( talk) 23:05, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
The transcript shown by the link is substantial, documented evidence that Dunham DID NOT attend the University of Washington in August 1961. The classes cited are under the section titled EXTENSION & CORRESPONDENCE COURSES, which means that they were not taken on campus. Her first courses actually taken on campus are posted in the main section and dated SPRING QTR 62, which points to a timeframe around April thru June of '62. Notice how the other set of extension courses end on 03/15/62. If she had attended the University of Washington starting Fall Qtr 61, the classes and grades would posted in the main section and WOULD NOT have been preceded by an X (for extension courses).
It appears that despite having an infant to take care of, she continued her studies for two quarters by taking a pair of extension classes (possibly night classes). JackOL31 ( talk) 17:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
More info at http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=107889
This is what we know from the images only.
and Spring '62 courses.
With extension courses one doesn't know the actual timeframe of study. Extension courses are mainly self-study so while technically enrolled from 08/19/61-12/12/61, she could have started in say, September after the clock started ticking. If there was an actual class, she could have missed the initial classes. So, all we know is that she did attend UW during the Fall '61 Quarter and completed those courses, but the information on the transcripts does not necessarily support WND's conclusion that she was physically present on 8/19. So, we could show the transcript information, but we have no solid information regarding dates for her arrival in Seattle. I can't find transcript information anywhere other than WND (or forks) so I guess there is nothing to add. JackOL31 ( talk) 03:47, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Currently the page says "Dunham met Lolo Soetoro, a student from Indonesia.[28] They married in 1966 or 1967" Are we sure they got married since we don't have an exact date and are fuzzy on the year? 75.57.121.90 ( talk) 15:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
A user has repeatedly inserted extended discussion into the Ann Dunham page about other wives. Without commenting on the reliability of this material, I have reverted it because it would be more appropriately placed -- if valid and reliable -- on President Obama's father's page with a brief mention here. The paragraph is not really about Ann Dunham but about her ex-husband. Bellagio99 ( talk) 18:59, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia's policy is to avoid extra emphasize on ethnicity unless it is relevant to the article. Therefore, I will remove ethnicity from her infobox unless good reasons are proposed. -- And Rew 21:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
There seems to be some dispute about whether Dunham's University of Hawaii BA was in Anthropology or Mathematics. All the objective sources(articles in the newspapers; the 1/09 issue of the UH magazine Malamala, etc.) support the latter. There is also a scan of a letter from the Registrar to this effect, though that seems to only be available for viewing on 'birther' sites so could be forged (though it is hard to imagine how the field of the degree would help their argument).
On the other hand, in comments to the Malamalama article op cit, someone in the UH Anthropology Dept. recalls her studying there as an undergraduate, and this is repeated in the Dewey article now linked to. These recollections are hardly definitive as to the official degree, unless the UH Anthropolgy Dept. at that time categorically did not accept students with degrees in other fields. Dunham probably did study in that department as an undergrad, but that doesn't mean her BA was there; she might have changed her declaration for technical reasons (eg, to better meet distribution requirements). This is not uncommon, especially for nontraditional students, though if she really had enough upper-division mathematics to switch majors at the last minute that would be very impressive.
On balance, there seems to be at least as much evidence that the degree was in math as that the degree was in anthro; the article should either be changed back, or made neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.210.136 ( talk) 22:10, 23 November 2010 (UTC)