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This is fascinating, and i presume that it is accurate, but some reliable sources need to be cited. There are also a good many "weasel words" that need to be clarified.
They are in Reference 2 of Cherokee.
Yes. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument
Done. References section updated. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument
See References. Already Done. Wilma Mankiller is one of the References. I think she is credible.
67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Cherokee, Google 491 sites and on-line discussions, and the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya writings.
Done. See References. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Writings and history of An-ni-ku-ta-ni, Can be obtained from Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya in Grassy, MO. Published in ancient writings, also republished in Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya newsletters sent monthly. See Ref 3.
Have to dig for that one. The date was October of 2002. I will update the References Section. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Central Organization also has them.
Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Religious Organization also has them.
Done. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Only the Mormons believe this. Its contained in their Journal of Discourses, and the Archives of the Mormom Church.
I will have the mormons do this one. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Three references are currently given, but it is not clear which statements in the article are supported by which references. I hope that more detailed citations will be provided to support the statements in the article. DES (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll put the cites in the references section, and you can footnote the article. The newletters don't have versions and they are written in Syllabary (most folks can't read them probably). But there is some english text in them that headline events. I can ask for english only versions.
67.137.28.187 19:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added what notes I could in the standard Wikipedia:Footnote3 style. Please check them for accuracy, and provide any further specific source citations available. Thanks. DES (talk) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Your are awesome! Wa-do Tsv-ge-na-li (Thanks my friend). I will go through all the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya postings when I get home. 67.137.28.187 23:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Complete and balanced (this has nothing to do with languages, and the article is terrible anyway) ----
Waya sahoni (22 Feb 06)
The information regarding the AniKutani is interesting however I see no point of reference. As a Keetoowah person and Historian, I would like to point out an historic reference that places the "Destruction" of the anikutani beginning in 1760. A trader- John Long- (Journal available) notes the morning mist brought with it an attack on the town he was residing in, (Chestua), rabbit town, a Yuchee/Cherokee town, and the "Cherokee" warriors swept through the town destroying the "priest" etc. This coincides with oral history in my family that indicates that the Christian Cherokees (ofthe newly reorganized Cherokee lower towns Government), began destroying any and all AniKutani throughout Cherokee country. Further, that the AniKutani (phonetic- Ani K'u tani--meaning of high knowledge) were also seen among other nations e.g. Iroquois, Algonquians -Muskogee etc and known to those as Inihi- Micco etc. My family record also states re Cherokee that Cherokee is not as is assumed, of Muskogee language derivation but is, from- Cheriaki anhaka, and Cheriaki targhe (Variously seen in early Spanish Journals), freely understood- (those of) the Fire. Acherra is the Keetoowah reference for Fire as is also Ocherra in Mohawk, (a related language). Three things must occur in placing a "word/ term", A. Location- (geographic) B. Time-and C. Intent. Asseen in Traditional records ofthe related Nations, Cayuga, Mohawk, Onondaga, Senneca, Oneida, (and Wyandotte), the "Cherokee" were traditionaly known and freely refered to by all surrounding Native Nations as the "People of the Fire". In the case of Cheriaki anhaka, the reference is originally to the Central Fire. The location of the Central / Principal seat-Fire of the Cherokee. This location is seen on a British War department map -c. 1755 The map is "The British Colonies in America": and clearly shows the great Ohio Valley region and the Appalachians and specifically the Cumberland’s of E Kentucky. Along the Cumberland’s is written "Ouscioto Mountains". Ouscioto is translated as Was Cherra Oto. Understood as (the) Central Fire. Oscioto being an adapted British form of Wascherra oto. More literally it is aWasCherra- (primary/ core/ Fire- and Oto "Lodge". Various references of the Lene Lenape circa 13-1500's identify this geographic as the center of the Alligewi (a term used by Lenepes to define those of the cave country) The Keetoowah. Time (C13-1400s & 1755) Geography-Map Cumberland’s -and Intent-the "intention of the term as a describer of (a) central Fire all come together to define Ouscito as the ancient (pre 1492) central home/ fire of the body later known commonly as Cherokee. That this body was (over a 350 year period C.1300s to 1600s,) driven from the central home lands to more southern reaches by a combined Wyandotte and Lene Lenape push from the North, seems to escaped the notice of contemporary history. Also not seen is any indication that any descendants of AniKutani survive, and I assure you, they do. Staiyu', Wahya, AniKituwagi
Siyo,
As to all the upstart talk pretaining to Ani-yunwiya = Ani-kituwahni (Keetoowah) = Tsalagi = Cherokee. The Real History is before us all in plain sigth, yet we are use to golden BS....
All Cherokee are Ani-yunwiya, regardless if we perfer to say Kituwak, Keetoowah, Tsalagi, or just plain Cherokee.
The Lenape History, as well as a host of other Tribal History speaks of our Ancestors. We were the Mound Builders, than the Western Invansion of the Lenape brougth about the 350 year war which raged, that is where the concept of a South movenment came about and the fall of our Priesthood.
We did had a form of writting back than before the fall of Ani-yunwiya (even though we still are Ani-yunwiya) Each Village have a scribe. As for the attack in the early 1700s by the Southern Cherokee village on other Cherokee Villages, it did not pretain to any of the Old Priesthood, it was on due to that the Southern Cherokee Band attack those that would not embrace the new religion, which in turn they lost their land base. The Treaty of 1721 brougth that in to existance.
At no time there any of us had the right to kill.... Know and learn our Blood Law first and foremost before speaking. Otherwise, why do you think know one speaks of the old Legends any more at our Ceremonies ?
Wado Crazysun
The citations regarding the killing of men, women and children are disputable. While Cherokee priests may have killed men, women and children, there is no reliable record of these killings. The legends were probably stories exaggerated by European settlers whose racism, cultural dominance and ignorance of the native population lead ultimately to their demise. No full-blooded Cherokee live today; even the tribal elders are 50% or less Cherokee blood. The stories are shrouded in mystery; their origins, as well, seem to lack precise citation in this article. - signed by anon IP
+ 71.102.32.144 ( talk) 05:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
There is simply no convincing evidence as to the truth of this article. Stories about a pre-Sequoyah writing system, for instance, are not supported by any serious scientific evidence.
Much of this sounds like "New Age" revisionism of traditional Cherokee culture. - signed by anon IP
For the "claimed historians" the preceeding sections on this talk page demonstrate A) the person commenting is not a Native Speaker of Cherokee. (Wahya is not spelled this way in phonetics or syllabary) and B) they have little or no contact with the Aniyvwiya or Cherokee Society and are quoting out of the same inaccurate books (which do not even mention the AniKutani). There are sections on Cherokee Mythology listed here and the existence of this mythology is verifiable and meets WP:RS and is accurate.
I do agree that the comments about baby killing are unsourced -- and have been removed. TsiGeGa 23:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I would say that this article is a "New Age" hoax and distortion of a Cherokee myth or legend. It appears that the distortion is driven by a desire to high jack the Cherokee. Also are there any state or federal recognized cherokee tribes in the state of Missouri? Just asking. I have added to this article what I can validate from the Cherokee history written by James Mooney., LoveMonkey 04:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I updated and cleaned up the section on James Mooney, added Benny Smith of the Cherokee Nation Oral Traditions and creation stories, removed POV materials, cleaned up artcle, updated sources.
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 02:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article contains a great amount of material that is uncited and seems highly speculative. I would like to encourage one of the article's regular contributor's to attempt to find citations, or remove the uncited and speculative material. If preferred, I could do this myself. The Jade Knight 01:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The organization of this article might need to be re-visited. Under the "Current Status" section, most of the information seems to relate to origin legends/mythology/beliefs. This information might be better located in the "History" section, or in an entirely seperate section? Mylorin 21:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.semissourian.com/story/1188119.html
The Grassy, MO group have sent me a formal request to remove any information about them from Wikipedia they considered confidential or that is classified as native american antiquities. They further stated they felt that editors on Wikipedia were responsible for creating a barrage of harassment including harassing telephone calls by being listed here. Since WP:BLP may apply in this case, I have honored their request and removed all uncited materials from the article. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit, it would be logical for THEM to make the request directly. -- Kebron 19:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
From above...
I have personally seen documents and carvings that are thousands of years old, and I even paid to have one of these items radio-carbon dated -- it was written circa 4200 B.C. Now its your turn. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Siyo.
Again this individual will try to shed some form of Ligth upon this issue. No, I don't have no documents, nor any educable degrees in any fields, except in life. So my words are just my words, yet with common sense.
Our Traditional name was, and is, and shall always be "Ani-yunwiya", translated into English (American verison) meaning "Pricinple Stock/Root" though normarly know as Pricinple people.
There did exist a Society of Ani-kutani, and in some ways still exist in one formare another. Yes, we could use the words "priest-hood". But those individual lost control, power way before the Mound Building era.... That is where the story/legend of the "Four Brothers" came into existence, comonly known as the "Pale Face One" that went East into the sea's.
The Story of the Four Brothers, is what brang into existence of the seven day fire Ceremony that is no longer preform in modern times. Back before Colonial times, every Village would build a gaint Bomn Fire facing the Eastern sea/ocean and it would burn for seven days and seven nigths diuring the spring storms, so that the Brothers and Sisters that traveled into the Eastern Sea would be able to return to their Home land. This went on through out the Mound Building Era.
Than many generations later, back around 800 Ad, when the lenape people invaded the East through the crossing of the Mississippe (Known as the Great River), at first it was a small group of Lenape families, Counicl was called and all the major red leaders wanted nothing to do with the Lenape, Yet the Medicine Society (which was never housed under any Band or Clan) thougth that maybe these werid (Lenape) people were kin of our Brothers and Sisters that went Eastward into the Sea.
Well word was sent out to all the Major Bands (Mound Villages) which was well over ninty some Bands, that Cahokia was goning to have a Grand Counicl pretaining to these lenapes.... It took years to accomplish this, bu by than more Lenape People cross the Great River, and little minor incidents delevoped, and as more happen people of both cultures were being killed, war soon delevoped.
Buy this time, Another Group of Lenape People were entering into modern day New England area through Canada.... And certain Bands of Ani-yuniwya in that area embrace the new people as being a part of them, while others didn't so war4 between familys delevoped, and after many generations of figthing, that is how the original Iroquois League began.
And at the same time, at Cahokia and a host of other major Mound sites (villages) fell to the Lenapes. The war reached all the way into the Ohio Valley. Through Out this time a lot of the Priest-Hood was being killed off due to the fact that they are the ones that were willing to embrace the new strangers (Lenape People), yet at the Same time abunch of minor Priest gather together in the East, which later formed in to what we know today as the Susquehanna (Priest/Warriors).
When the spanish touch down on the Island in the gulf of Mexico, Ani-yunwiya was a couple of gernations into rebuilding their Society back into their original form, where upon new diseases traveled northward and beganing killing off a lot of our Elders that still held on to a lot of ancient knowledge. Yes we still had a forn of Ani-kutanie in existent., and there were still Lunar as well as Solictis Priest men as well as women.
I think, not sure, but the last person that is know as holding knowledge of the Lunar was Dragging Canoe, though there are some today that do lay claim to some of the knowledge as well as a title, which the last part is debatable.
It is also a known fact that when a host of Southern Ani-yunwiya embrace the new religion in the mid to late 1500's, they began to build a power base, and as their power grew, they destoryed many of Traditional Villages and such that refused to give up their Tradiutional base of power which wasn't a power base.
Think, you take a hunderd people which all have equal rigths, equal voice.... It takes time to organize anything of importance. Now you take two individuals , sereparte them and give them a host of gifts to distute among the other ninty eigth people. those two people began to create self people of importance. As time goes on, you began to favor one of them buy gifting them more gifts then the other. The rest is plain common sense....
Now we are here in modern times, with three Federal base of Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), and each one lays claim to holding true Traditions, yet a lot of our Ceremonies are not performed no more, the Law of Blood is forebidden, and all three are control by rules that are not of their making. Two of those federal bases lay claim to beginning the real Treaty Holders.
Than we have the sad fact that yes there are many of us that are living and breathing that are Ani-yunwiya that are not a part of neither Three Federal Base, and at the same time there are a host of others that may or may not have any true claim to the heritage that confess to being a Big Shot Medicine or Chief.
I for one, was born being of the Cherokee Heritage, and yes I have another heritages flo9wing through my veins being Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), Chickasaw, Choctaw, Susquehanna, Mohawk, Creek, (And other unknown tribal Heritages) as well as German, Irish, Scott and other unknown heritages. Which one am I, I am all of them, but I was born and rise with the knowledge of being Cherokee, I didn't know anything of the other heritages into I was past the age of twentyone. Now I am in my fiftys....
Any one from the three Federal base, are no more and no less Cherokee/Ani-yunwiya than me or anyone else that has the heritage flowing within their veins. A person that is part Black (African) and part White (European-American) marries a Spanish-Japanisn, and has a child, what is the Child ? better still what is the person that is part Black and part White ?
Wado Crazysun
Email crazysunzak@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.84.137.125 ( talk) 02:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if someone with a better grasp of Ani Yvwiya history than myself would research the claims that the Ani Kutani had a written language and post their findings here. I recall that many were initially troubled by Sequoyah's syllabary because they thought it was sorcery, presumably recalling the writing of the Ani Kutani. Any insight would be appreciated. 70.144.30.122 ( talk) 16:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the "Different story" material because the contributor cites two books that both quote a paragraph from the same source. This is Raymond Fogelson - "Who Were the Ani-Katani". He states in the original that he is discussing two different things, the Ani-Katani and the "Cherokee Fire Kings". What was added to this wikipedia article relates to the Fire Kings, not the Ani-Katani. Fogelson also notes that he is taking dramatic license with both to explore Cherokee thought. Odestiny ( talk) 05:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Would "shaman" be a better word to use?... AnonMoos ( talk) 01:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
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This is fascinating, and i presume that it is accurate, but some reliable sources need to be cited. There are also a good many "weasel words" that need to be clarified.
They are in Reference 2 of Cherokee.
Yes. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument
Done. References section updated. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Current Theory from online discussions -- see 491 hits on Google. Several websites of Cherokees make this argument
See References. Already Done. Wilma Mankiller is one of the References. I think she is credible.
67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Cherokee, Google 491 sites and on-line discussions, and the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya writings.
Done. See References. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Writings and history of An-ni-ku-ta-ni, Can be obtained from Paul Smith, leader of the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya in Grassy, MO. Published in ancient writings, also republished in Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya newsletters sent monthly. See Ref 3.
Have to dig for that one. The date was October of 2002. I will update the References Section. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Central Organization also has them.
Yes. Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Newletters, published monthly, and sent out everymonth from the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya Religious Organization. (I have copies) Can be faxed if you provide fax number. Religious Organization also has them.
Done. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Only the Mormons believe this. Its contained in their Journal of Discourses, and the Archives of the Mormom Church.
I will have the mormons do this one. 67.137.28.187 20:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Three references are currently given, but it is not clear which statements in the article are supported by which references. I hope that more detailed citations will be provided to support the statements in the article. DES (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll put the cites in the references section, and you can footnote the article. The newletters don't have versions and they are written in Syllabary (most folks can't read them probably). But there is some english text in them that headline events. I can ask for english only versions.
67.137.28.187 19:24, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added what notes I could in the standard Wikipedia:Footnote3 style. Please check them for accuracy, and provide any further specific source citations available. Thanks. DES (talk) 22:46, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Your are awesome! Wa-do Tsv-ge-na-li (Thanks my friend). I will go through all the Ah-ni-yv-wi-ya postings when I get home. 67.137.28.187 23:05, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Complete and balanced (this has nothing to do with languages, and the article is terrible anyway) ----
Waya sahoni (22 Feb 06)
The information regarding the AniKutani is interesting however I see no point of reference. As a Keetoowah person and Historian, I would like to point out an historic reference that places the "Destruction" of the anikutani beginning in 1760. A trader- John Long- (Journal available) notes the morning mist brought with it an attack on the town he was residing in, (Chestua), rabbit town, a Yuchee/Cherokee town, and the "Cherokee" warriors swept through the town destroying the "priest" etc. This coincides with oral history in my family that indicates that the Christian Cherokees (ofthe newly reorganized Cherokee lower towns Government), began destroying any and all AniKutani throughout Cherokee country. Further, that the AniKutani (phonetic- Ani K'u tani--meaning of high knowledge) were also seen among other nations e.g. Iroquois, Algonquians -Muskogee etc and known to those as Inihi- Micco etc. My family record also states re Cherokee that Cherokee is not as is assumed, of Muskogee language derivation but is, from- Cheriaki anhaka, and Cheriaki targhe (Variously seen in early Spanish Journals), freely understood- (those of) the Fire. Acherra is the Keetoowah reference for Fire as is also Ocherra in Mohawk, (a related language). Three things must occur in placing a "word/ term", A. Location- (geographic) B. Time-and C. Intent. Asseen in Traditional records ofthe related Nations, Cayuga, Mohawk, Onondaga, Senneca, Oneida, (and Wyandotte), the "Cherokee" were traditionaly known and freely refered to by all surrounding Native Nations as the "People of the Fire". In the case of Cheriaki anhaka, the reference is originally to the Central Fire. The location of the Central / Principal seat-Fire of the Cherokee. This location is seen on a British War department map -c. 1755 The map is "The British Colonies in America": and clearly shows the great Ohio Valley region and the Appalachians and specifically the Cumberland’s of E Kentucky. Along the Cumberland’s is written "Ouscioto Mountains". Ouscioto is translated as Was Cherra Oto. Understood as (the) Central Fire. Oscioto being an adapted British form of Wascherra oto. More literally it is aWasCherra- (primary/ core/ Fire- and Oto "Lodge". Various references of the Lene Lenape circa 13-1500's identify this geographic as the center of the Alligewi (a term used by Lenepes to define those of the cave country) The Keetoowah. Time (C13-1400s & 1755) Geography-Map Cumberland’s -and Intent-the "intention of the term as a describer of (a) central Fire all come together to define Ouscito as the ancient (pre 1492) central home/ fire of the body later known commonly as Cherokee. That this body was (over a 350 year period C.1300s to 1600s,) driven from the central home lands to more southern reaches by a combined Wyandotte and Lene Lenape push from the North, seems to escaped the notice of contemporary history. Also not seen is any indication that any descendants of AniKutani survive, and I assure you, they do. Staiyu', Wahya, AniKituwagi
Siyo,
As to all the upstart talk pretaining to Ani-yunwiya = Ani-kituwahni (Keetoowah) = Tsalagi = Cherokee. The Real History is before us all in plain sigth, yet we are use to golden BS....
All Cherokee are Ani-yunwiya, regardless if we perfer to say Kituwak, Keetoowah, Tsalagi, or just plain Cherokee.
The Lenape History, as well as a host of other Tribal History speaks of our Ancestors. We were the Mound Builders, than the Western Invansion of the Lenape brougth about the 350 year war which raged, that is where the concept of a South movenment came about and the fall of our Priesthood.
We did had a form of writting back than before the fall of Ani-yunwiya (even though we still are Ani-yunwiya) Each Village have a scribe. As for the attack in the early 1700s by the Southern Cherokee village on other Cherokee Villages, it did not pretain to any of the Old Priesthood, it was on due to that the Southern Cherokee Band attack those that would not embrace the new religion, which in turn they lost their land base. The Treaty of 1721 brougth that in to existance.
At no time there any of us had the right to kill.... Know and learn our Blood Law first and foremost before speaking. Otherwise, why do you think know one speaks of the old Legends any more at our Ceremonies ?
Wado Crazysun
The citations regarding the killing of men, women and children are disputable. While Cherokee priests may have killed men, women and children, there is no reliable record of these killings. The legends were probably stories exaggerated by European settlers whose racism, cultural dominance and ignorance of the native population lead ultimately to their demise. No full-blooded Cherokee live today; even the tribal elders are 50% or less Cherokee blood. The stories are shrouded in mystery; their origins, as well, seem to lack precise citation in this article. - signed by anon IP
+ 71.102.32.144 ( talk) 05:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
There is simply no convincing evidence as to the truth of this article. Stories about a pre-Sequoyah writing system, for instance, are not supported by any serious scientific evidence.
Much of this sounds like "New Age" revisionism of traditional Cherokee culture. - signed by anon IP
For the "claimed historians" the preceeding sections on this talk page demonstrate A) the person commenting is not a Native Speaker of Cherokee. (Wahya is not spelled this way in phonetics or syllabary) and B) they have little or no contact with the Aniyvwiya or Cherokee Society and are quoting out of the same inaccurate books (which do not even mention the AniKutani). There are sections on Cherokee Mythology listed here and the existence of this mythology is verifiable and meets WP:RS and is accurate.
I do agree that the comments about baby killing are unsourced -- and have been removed. TsiGeGa 23:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I would say that this article is a "New Age" hoax and distortion of a Cherokee myth or legend. It appears that the distortion is driven by a desire to high jack the Cherokee. Also are there any state or federal recognized cherokee tribes in the state of Missouri? Just asking. I have added to this article what I can validate from the Cherokee history written by James Mooney., LoveMonkey 04:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I updated and cleaned up the section on James Mooney, added Benny Smith of the Cherokee Nation Oral Traditions and creation stories, removed POV materials, cleaned up artcle, updated sources.
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 02:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
This article contains a great amount of material that is uncited and seems highly speculative. I would like to encourage one of the article's regular contributor's to attempt to find citations, or remove the uncited and speculative material. If preferred, I could do this myself. The Jade Knight 01:08, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The organization of this article might need to be re-visited. Under the "Current Status" section, most of the information seems to relate to origin legends/mythology/beliefs. This information might be better located in the "History" section, or in an entirely seperate section? Mylorin 21:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
http://www.semissourian.com/story/1188119.html
The Grassy, MO group have sent me a formal request to remove any information about them from Wikipedia they considered confidential or that is classified as native american antiquities. They further stated they felt that editors on Wikipedia were responsible for creating a barrage of harassment including harassing telephone calls by being listed here. Since WP:BLP may apply in this case, I have honored their request and removed all uncited materials from the article. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that ANYONE can edit, it would be logical for THEM to make the request directly. -- Kebron 19:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
From above...
I have personally seen documents and carvings that are thousands of years old, and I even paid to have one of these items radio-carbon dated -- it was written circa 4200 B.C. Now its your turn. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 19:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Siyo.
Again this individual will try to shed some form of Ligth upon this issue. No, I don't have no documents, nor any educable degrees in any fields, except in life. So my words are just my words, yet with common sense.
Our Traditional name was, and is, and shall always be "Ani-yunwiya", translated into English (American verison) meaning "Pricinple Stock/Root" though normarly know as Pricinple people.
There did exist a Society of Ani-kutani, and in some ways still exist in one formare another. Yes, we could use the words "priest-hood". But those individual lost control, power way before the Mound Building era.... That is where the story/legend of the "Four Brothers" came into existence, comonly known as the "Pale Face One" that went East into the sea's.
The Story of the Four Brothers, is what brang into existence of the seven day fire Ceremony that is no longer preform in modern times. Back before Colonial times, every Village would build a gaint Bomn Fire facing the Eastern sea/ocean and it would burn for seven days and seven nigths diuring the spring storms, so that the Brothers and Sisters that traveled into the Eastern Sea would be able to return to their Home land. This went on through out the Mound Building Era.
Than many generations later, back around 800 Ad, when the lenape people invaded the East through the crossing of the Mississippe (Known as the Great River), at first it was a small group of Lenape families, Counicl was called and all the major red leaders wanted nothing to do with the Lenape, Yet the Medicine Society (which was never housed under any Band or Clan) thougth that maybe these werid (Lenape) people were kin of our Brothers and Sisters that went Eastward into the Sea.
Well word was sent out to all the Major Bands (Mound Villages) which was well over ninty some Bands, that Cahokia was goning to have a Grand Counicl pretaining to these lenapes.... It took years to accomplish this, bu by than more Lenape People cross the Great River, and little minor incidents delevoped, and as more happen people of both cultures were being killed, war soon delevoped.
Buy this time, Another Group of Lenape People were entering into modern day New England area through Canada.... And certain Bands of Ani-yuniwya in that area embrace the new people as being a part of them, while others didn't so war4 between familys delevoped, and after many generations of figthing, that is how the original Iroquois League began.
And at the same time, at Cahokia and a host of other major Mound sites (villages) fell to the Lenapes. The war reached all the way into the Ohio Valley. Through Out this time a lot of the Priest-Hood was being killed off due to the fact that they are the ones that were willing to embrace the new strangers (Lenape People), yet at the Same time abunch of minor Priest gather together in the East, which later formed in to what we know today as the Susquehanna (Priest/Warriors).
When the spanish touch down on the Island in the gulf of Mexico, Ani-yunwiya was a couple of gernations into rebuilding their Society back into their original form, where upon new diseases traveled northward and beganing killing off a lot of our Elders that still held on to a lot of ancient knowledge. Yes we still had a forn of Ani-kutanie in existent., and there were still Lunar as well as Solictis Priest men as well as women.
I think, not sure, but the last person that is know as holding knowledge of the Lunar was Dragging Canoe, though there are some today that do lay claim to some of the knowledge as well as a title, which the last part is debatable.
It is also a known fact that when a host of Southern Ani-yunwiya embrace the new religion in the mid to late 1500's, they began to build a power base, and as their power grew, they destoryed many of Traditional Villages and such that refused to give up their Tradiutional base of power which wasn't a power base.
Think, you take a hunderd people which all have equal rigths, equal voice.... It takes time to organize anything of importance. Now you take two individuals , sereparte them and give them a host of gifts to distute among the other ninty eigth people. those two people began to create self people of importance. As time goes on, you began to favor one of them buy gifting them more gifts then the other. The rest is plain common sense....
Now we are here in modern times, with three Federal base of Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), and each one lays claim to holding true Traditions, yet a lot of our Ceremonies are not performed no more, the Law of Blood is forebidden, and all three are control by rules that are not of their making. Two of those federal bases lay claim to beginning the real Treaty Holders.
Than we have the sad fact that yes there are many of us that are living and breathing that are Ani-yunwiya that are not a part of neither Three Federal Base, and at the same time there are a host of others that may or may not have any true claim to the heritage that confess to being a Big Shot Medicine or Chief.
I for one, was born being of the Cherokee Heritage, and yes I have another heritages flo9wing through my veins being Ani-yunwiya (Cherokee), Chickasaw, Choctaw, Susquehanna, Mohawk, Creek, (And other unknown tribal Heritages) as well as German, Irish, Scott and other unknown heritages. Which one am I, I am all of them, but I was born and rise with the knowledge of being Cherokee, I didn't know anything of the other heritages into I was past the age of twentyone. Now I am in my fiftys....
Any one from the three Federal base, are no more and no less Cherokee/Ani-yunwiya than me or anyone else that has the heritage flowing within their veins. A person that is part Black (African) and part White (European-American) marries a Spanish-Japanisn, and has a child, what is the Child ? better still what is the person that is part Black and part White ?
Wado Crazysun
Email crazysunzak@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.84.137.125 ( talk) 02:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if someone with a better grasp of Ani Yvwiya history than myself would research the claims that the Ani Kutani had a written language and post their findings here. I recall that many were initially troubled by Sequoyah's syllabary because they thought it was sorcery, presumably recalling the writing of the Ani Kutani. Any insight would be appreciated. 70.144.30.122 ( talk) 16:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I removed the "Different story" material because the contributor cites two books that both quote a paragraph from the same source. This is Raymond Fogelson - "Who Were the Ani-Katani". He states in the original that he is discussing two different things, the Ani-Katani and the "Cherokee Fire Kings". What was added to this wikipedia article relates to the Fire Kings, not the Ani-Katani. Fogelson also notes that he is taking dramatic license with both to explore Cherokee thought. Odestiny ( talk) 05:19, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Would "shaman" be a better word to use?... AnonMoos ( talk) 01:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)