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On the main page, the first point on the news claims Uzbek troops kill over 300 but on the article it is perhaps 300, this means the actual number is unknown, just estimated. It disturbs me because lies and false claims to fix impact on a title, are for the news media not for Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia Mexaguil 07:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
that re-enforces my point, my point is: wikipedia should not fall into the trap that news media does and have vague claims Mexaguil 10:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
You are both right, which is why "X is true" in a case like this should be "x is true" says (reference) preferably as an exact quote preferably linking to an internet source. 4.250.201.173 14:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I've seen several media outlets in Norway who've started operating with (estimated) figures up in the 1000 to 2000 dead civillians. Nothing confirmed, naturally, but I'm upping the maximum estimated bit in the article intro to 1000 based on this. Also, I've seen a quote where the Uzbek government admits to having killed 160-something "militant extremists" several days after the massacre, despite sources in the army saying "at least 500". I can't find sources for any of these, though, as I mean to have picked them up from the text-TV of Norwegian NRK and TV2... so I'll just leave it in here, for now.-- TVPR 07:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
This article shows an over whelming anti-Uzbek bias and goes against the basic tenets of Wikipedia. [unsigned]
This article is highly inaccurate and has a pervasive anti-Uzbek pov. I will try to correct this as best I can. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "anti-Uzbek"? Don't you realize that it is because of a few very brave Uzbeks (many of whom are wanted by their government now) that we have any of this information at all? When you say "anti-Uzbek" pov, you mean "anti-Karimov Regime".
India is known as a peace loving country and this is not possible that India would under any circumstances support this massacre. The citations provided no-where have anything to relate Indian support to this massacre, hence I am editing the doc and removing India from the supporters list in the 3rd Para Bmayuresh ( talk) 11:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Other than complaints from anonymous users and
Sock puppets, do we have any other complaints of NPOV?
Djma12
13:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The previous introduction was confusing in chronology and also introduced ancillary issues that occured after the events of May 13th. The "Islamic state" portion, for example, was an isolated incident that occured afterwards and had marginal connection to the intent of the original protestors. Hope this clarifies the topic.
Djma12
14:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Who changed the title? I think it should be changed back to Andijan Massacre, since thats what you call an event like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KingFace ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
The consensus among Central Asian experts is that this was an inter-clan conflict between the Interior Ministry and the clan running the police department of Andijan. This is not the third or fourth time this issue has been raised, this is the only time it has been raised. Dont manufacture discussion that never took place. KazakhPol 02:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Djma12 02:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Djma12 03:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Also it's not about this article being in Terrorism in Uzbekistan category, it's just the whole article is focused on, and in a way sides with, the official Uzbek version of the story. That is what needs to be changed. TheColdTruth 05:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this conversation is muddled at the moment b/c we are addressing three seperate topics concurrently. As such, I have created three new headings. Djma12 13:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've watched the whole thing a couple of times and broadly speaking I agree with the NYT’s assessment. Like the shorter version the Uzbek Government released six months before, this shows that the protests in Andijan began with a violent uprising, possibly (though not necessarily) religiously inspired. This longer video actually helps to undermine the weaker portions of the Uzbek Government’s case though. It clearly shows a crowd of hundreds, many women and children, almost all unarmed. There is no evidence to show that they were rounded up by force and used as a human shield: the only hostages shown are militsiya being herded into the Hukumat building. That said, the militants must have had some idea that these people would be in danger - but it doesn’t sound as if they were given any chance to disperse by the troops before they opened fire. I just don’t understand why the Uzbek Government released this video, in this form (It was handed over by the distinguished Uzbek scholar Bakhtiyar Babajanov to Martha Olcott at a Carnegie Foundation meeting, and he seems to have been authorised to do this). Had the Uzbek regime published the footage in full, without editing or subtitles, but with a full transcript, in the immediate aftermath of the massacre, they might have received some plaudits for openness and taken the heat out of demands for an enquiry. Had they suppressed it altogether they could have kept us guessing, or at least reliant on the statements of eyewitnesses which they could deny, however unconvincingly. They could even have cut it a lot more drastically than they did. Instead they’ve sat on it for a year, in which time they could have doctored the footage in any manner they chose. They’ve edited it crudely, removed any footage of people actually being killed by Government troops, and provided subtitles for those bits of dialogue they want highlighted (every single cry of “Allahu Akbar”, in other words). But they’ve left the rest of the soundtrack in, without subtitles, but perfectly comprehensible to anyone who knows Uzbek (I can only pick up the odd word). Thus, as Chivers and Wilensky-Langford observe, you can hear the crowd quite clearly yelling “Azadlik” (freedom) as well as “Allahu Akbar”. People make speeches denouncing economic hardship and unjust imprisonment. For all their attempts to suggest that these are dangerous militants of the kind we see marching in Quetta burning US flags, the atmosphere, with its cheers, clapping and whistles, sounds more like a pop concert half the time, made all the more poignant because we know what follows. What is shocking in some ways is the normality of it all, people smiling, chatting, waving, lying on the grass, talking on their mobile phones, smoking a fag, looking excited or bewildered, amongst the burning buildings, the slightly hysterical speeches and the appeals for calm. I suppose the intention of the film is to make foreigners feel scared of this crowd of people, hundreds of whom are about to die. In this it singularly fails. Sikandarji 15:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I have to agree, there are parts that are good, but overall the article at least needs cleaning of biased parts, and expanding is a good idea too. I will keep providing some reliable sources, that will have a lot of facts needed for the article. Here are some, with quotations, but please take your time to read through all of it.
- "Activists and journalists who tried to tell the truth about the massacre have, the report says, "been arrested on spurious charges, detained, beaten, threatened, put under surveillance or under de facto house arrest, and have been set upon by mobs and humiliated through Soviet-style public denunciations..."
There will be more to come, but keep in mind that these are only quotations, and make sure to go through the links.
TheColdTruth 23:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've found it easy to just look through achieves of BBC, UN, HRW and others, relating Andijan Massacre, so here are links to them: BBC: [14] HRW: [15] UN: [16] If you are willing to help out with improving this article, please go through these links, you'll find everything you need. Thank you TheColdTruth 23:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
TheColdTruth, thank you for the suggestions. Here are my thoughts:
Djma12 02:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Before we go back and forth accusing each other of vandalism, let's review what WP:VANDAL defines as vandalism:
Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia.
The most common types of vandalism include the addition of obscenities to pages, page blanking, or the insertion of bad (or good) jokes or other nonsense. Fortunately, these types of vandalism are usually easy to spot.
Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism.
Though you may disagree with an edit, please refrain from characterizing edits as "vandalism" without evidence of such. Djma12 21:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ask Cs if he considers those edits reversions. Djma12 02:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Is a weak theory at best. More of a rumour. There are thousand tales told in the region. I dont understand how it goes to the top. cs 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody until now questioned the causality of businessmen issue. That is the primary reason cited by the participants of the protests. Clan dispute is different. Was there any recorded slogan about the fired governor? Were the protestors shouting slogans in support of the fired governor showing signs that indeed was a part of the protests? Is there any reference to it in the countless interviews with the protestors, published so far? Is there really a compelling causal link forcing us to rethink that in fact the protestors were there for a reason other than what they express? cs 18:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than a constant back-and-forth between 3-4 editors, why don't we ask for some
third-party evaluation of what a neutral introduction should be? We would appreciate evaluation on:
Regards, Djma12 00:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest:
A short introduction should merely introduce the issues and the major POV dispute. The KazakhPol version fails NPOV by endorsing the government version only (and not even the current government version at that). Both versions go into too much detail for an introduction. Both fail to identify the permanent damage done to US-Uzbek relations because of Andijan.
Note that I've added some additional sources above. TedFrank 08:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd support most of that (and am very glad to see Adeeb Khalid's book cited - it's excellent). One thing I would say is that even before the massacre the Uzbek Government had been gradually distancing itself from its western allies, and I suspect the airbase at Khanabad would have been closed that year anyway. Sikandarji 11:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tried and failed to find a source for: "There is some information that on May 14 nearly 200 people (possibly armed people, who tried to flee to Kyrgyzstan) were killed in Pahtaabad, 30 km north-west of Andijan." Can anyone find a source for this? This is an opportunity to help improve the article... KazakhPol 00:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This section as written is contradictory. The subsections need to be merged. - TedFrank 09:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I already provided a third party source for the clan dispute. There is no reason to remove it. KazakhPol 19:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
TheColdTruth removed the following content today:
In the same edits he removed to citation missing templates for an uncited paragraph, but did not add citations. When I reverted his edits, he posted the following message on my talkpage:
Note that nowhere in his edits to this page on March 22 did he change the date. Perhaps he/she is confused. KazakhPol 05:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
One user, KazakhPol in particular(who is known for pushing everything-terrorism subjects and views), wants this article to be part of Terrorism Category. However, the only thing related to terrorism is that the Uzbek government, which has been established as being corrupt by the Western World, blamed the massacre on terrorists, at first. The whole article has nothing to do with terrorism, in addition the Uzbek government has acknowledged that the mass killing of protesters was done by them, all though they are saying it was the solely local government's fault. Besides KazakhPol does anyone find this article appropriate being in terrorism category? If not it will be removed from the category. TheColdTruth 17:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You both have already stated your desire to have this category removed. This is nothing new. You have no grounds to remove the category, the statement that the government acknowledged a mass killing is false, and you apparently have not read the guideline on Category:Designated terrorist organizations which clearly applies in this case. KazakhPol 20:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
TCT, do you have a cite for the Uzbek government blaming it on the local government? I recall seeing that, too, but can't find it quickly. It is definitely the case that the government no longer claims that this was a terrorist attack. -- THF 14:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
As I promised March 11, I've done an extensive rewrite of the article ( before and after), reflecting the OSCE report, which is the most comprehensive report on the massacre, yet was not cited once in the main article. Main changes:
-- THF 14:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Reverting two hours of work that fixed an incoherent article is not productive. I've added an NPOV tag to reflect your concerns. Let's talk on the talk page. You haven't sourced any of your disputes. -- THF 14:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section is appropriate or adds anything encyclopedic. What basis is there for including it? -- THF 14:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The only cite for "interior ministry" in the old version was this article quoting a single anonymous soldier [22]; the words "Interior Ministry" are entirely absent. -- THF 15:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've looked at the old version of the article, and there are no sources disputing that the base was yanked because of American reaction to the Andijan massacre. If KazakhPol is going to dispute this, he needs a verifiable reliable source. -- THF 15:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
So what is your proposed language? Every source acknowledges that it had an effect, which is all the main text does. -- THF 15:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
-- THF 15:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Last few changes are good, but I would still prefer that the clan dispute be mentioned early on. I have found another source that discusses this in greater depth, but I am not sure how to best incorporate it. See [25] Could we get an outside opinion here? Perhaps post on the Central Asia wikiproject talkpage? KazakhPol 20:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
CA-Institute concluded the clan theory was accurate. Show changes does not work because he moved the paragraph so you cant see how it was altered. KazakhPol 20:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The "17th air-assault brigade and a battalion of specialized operations from the Eastern military district is part of the MVD-Interior Ministry. Could we change the intro to say "Interior Ministry and National Security Service" troops? KazakhPol 20:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
B-class seems awfully low given that it's a controversial topic without any real NPOV disputes, heavily cited, and fairly informative. THF 22:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to notice this, what does it have to do anything with the article, other than that Uzbek government () initially blamed the massacre on terrorists, in reality it is just a excuse the govt. uses against similar events in Uzbekistan(even the article has this quoted), anyways why does terrorism have to do anything with Andijan massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.243.173.33 ( talk) 01:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this section which read:
'Soldiers took protesters and witnesses hostage, tied them up, and beat them. According to Central Asia expert Shirin Akiner whose views are considered by many Western experts as pro-Uzbek government, others were "mutilated and shot; one man had both his ears sliced off and another had his eye poked out." [2]'
This is a blatant twisting of the original (cut and pasted from Akiner's report) :
"By about 8.00 am people were beginning to gather in the square. No one had any idea of what had happened and some people entered the building to go to work. They were taken hostage. Soldiers and others were also taken hostage. They were tied up and some were badly beaten. Others were mutilated and shot; one man had both his ears sliced off and another had his eye poked out (account given by hostage – Hos1)." (Akiner, op cit p 17) Camel droppings ( talk) 15:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
References
DOCUMENTING
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Hello, Your "A" class article is a good example for us and I have been looking it over closely.
I am one of the editors working hard on the 2010 Copiapó mining accident article. It has come a very long way in a very short period of time and now that it has fallen off the main page and pedestrian edits have subsided, we would like to prepare it for reassessment. The article is currently rated as "C" class across the board but much has been done since then.
I think one section, or series of sections our is missing is coverage of the international contributions to the effort. Another section that we may need to add is a professional critique of the government's handling of the entire search and rescue operation. The latter section may be difficult to do since most of the coverage appears to be laudatory in nature. Any advice on how to best present that or locating more professional, critical sources would be appreciated. Not looking to add anti-gov propaganda and hatred to it, just balanced critique.
I would like to invite the editors who have helped build this great article to visit our article and offer any gut level advice on what more we need to work on.
Sincerely, Veriss ( talk) 01:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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The title should be a bit more neutral. "Massacre" implies an attack on masses of unarmed civilians; in Andijan, like the massacres on unarmed Hindus in East Pakistan and the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The article itself notes that it began with violent revolts and a prison break, the introduction section reads "The Uzbek government at first said the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan organized the unrest and the protesters were members of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Critics argue that the Islamist radical label is just a pretext for maintaining a repressive regime in the country. Whether troops fired indiscriminately to prevent a color revolution or acted legitimately to quell a prison break is also disputed." While the exact motivations of troops are disputed, the title implies that there is no dispute at hand and the incident was purely a massacre. The prison revolt was led by armed gunmen, hence this is not a clear-cut massacre on unarmed individuals. More appropriate titles would be 2005 Andijan Unrest, 2005 Andijan Violence, 2005 Andijan Uprisings, 2005 Andijan Skirmishes...-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 23:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Lingveno is right. And contra PlanespotterA320, the title has made a judgment. 'Unrest' is without question making a judgment! I support the change of the title, and I ask for this discussion to be taken up by others. This was a massacre. There is no supposed technical or academic definition of the word 'massacre' that will be relevant: when events are named by the public, through a process involving many, they don't follow some sort of textbook definition of what someone might want the word 'massacre' to mean in some technical context. I'll appeal to any readers who came to this article and are now reading this talk page. Did you come here prompted by reading something about this event, or hearing or watching something about this event, and the something you read or heard or saw involved the word 'massacre'? I suspect for some of you the answer is, like me, yes. I was listening to a podcast, heard a reference to an Uzbekistan massacre, wanted to learn more about it, fired up Wikipedia, met the word 'unrest' and thought 'oh, here we go. someone cleaning this up.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.135.63 ( talk) 05:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
How is it that a massacre of this scale and article depth has no images documenting the event, mass graves, etc? Silenceisgod ( talk) 04:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)
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On the main page, the first point on the news claims Uzbek troops kill over 300 but on the article it is perhaps 300, this means the actual number is unknown, just estimated. It disturbs me because lies and false claims to fix impact on a title, are for the news media not for Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia Mexaguil 07:42, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
that re-enforces my point, my point is: wikipedia should not fall into the trap that news media does and have vague claims Mexaguil 10:32, 15 May 2005 (UTC)
You are both right, which is why "X is true" in a case like this should be "x is true" says (reference) preferably as an exact quote preferably linking to an internet source. 4.250.201.173 14:21, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I've seen several media outlets in Norway who've started operating with (estimated) figures up in the 1000 to 2000 dead civillians. Nothing confirmed, naturally, but I'm upping the maximum estimated bit in the article intro to 1000 based on this. Also, I've seen a quote where the Uzbek government admits to having killed 160-something "militant extremists" several days after the massacre, despite sources in the army saying "at least 500". I can't find sources for any of these, though, as I mean to have picked them up from the text-TV of Norwegian NRK and TV2... so I'll just leave it in here, for now.-- TVPR 07:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
This article shows an over whelming anti-Uzbek bias and goes against the basic tenets of Wikipedia. [unsigned]
This article is highly inaccurate and has a pervasive anti-Uzbek pov. I will try to correct this as best I can. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean "anti-Uzbek"? Don't you realize that it is because of a few very brave Uzbeks (many of whom are wanted by their government now) that we have any of this information at all? When you say "anti-Uzbek" pov, you mean "anti-Karimov Regime".
India is known as a peace loving country and this is not possible that India would under any circumstances support this massacre. The citations provided no-where have anything to relate Indian support to this massacre, hence I am editing the doc and removing India from the supporters list in the 3rd Para Bmayuresh ( talk) 11:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Other than complaints from anonymous users and
Sock puppets, do we have any other complaints of NPOV?
Djma12
13:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The previous introduction was confusing in chronology and also introduced ancillary issues that occured after the events of May 13th. The "Islamic state" portion, for example, was an isolated incident that occured afterwards and had marginal connection to the intent of the original protestors. Hope this clarifies the topic.
Djma12
14:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Who changed the title? I think it should be changed back to Andijan Massacre, since thats what you call an event like this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KingFace ( talk • contribs) 17:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
The consensus among Central Asian experts is that this was an inter-clan conflict between the Interior Ministry and the clan running the police department of Andijan. This is not the third or fourth time this issue has been raised, this is the only time it has been raised. Dont manufacture discussion that never took place. KazakhPol 02:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Djma12 02:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Djma12 03:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Also it's not about this article being in Terrorism in Uzbekistan category, it's just the whole article is focused on, and in a way sides with, the official Uzbek version of the story. That is what needs to be changed. TheColdTruth 05:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this conversation is muddled at the moment b/c we are addressing three seperate topics concurrently. As such, I have created three new headings. Djma12 13:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've watched the whole thing a couple of times and broadly speaking I agree with the NYT’s assessment. Like the shorter version the Uzbek Government released six months before, this shows that the protests in Andijan began with a violent uprising, possibly (though not necessarily) religiously inspired. This longer video actually helps to undermine the weaker portions of the Uzbek Government’s case though. It clearly shows a crowd of hundreds, many women and children, almost all unarmed. There is no evidence to show that they were rounded up by force and used as a human shield: the only hostages shown are militsiya being herded into the Hukumat building. That said, the militants must have had some idea that these people would be in danger - but it doesn’t sound as if they were given any chance to disperse by the troops before they opened fire. I just don’t understand why the Uzbek Government released this video, in this form (It was handed over by the distinguished Uzbek scholar Bakhtiyar Babajanov to Martha Olcott at a Carnegie Foundation meeting, and he seems to have been authorised to do this). Had the Uzbek regime published the footage in full, without editing or subtitles, but with a full transcript, in the immediate aftermath of the massacre, they might have received some plaudits for openness and taken the heat out of demands for an enquiry. Had they suppressed it altogether they could have kept us guessing, or at least reliant on the statements of eyewitnesses which they could deny, however unconvincingly. They could even have cut it a lot more drastically than they did. Instead they’ve sat on it for a year, in which time they could have doctored the footage in any manner they chose. They’ve edited it crudely, removed any footage of people actually being killed by Government troops, and provided subtitles for those bits of dialogue they want highlighted (every single cry of “Allahu Akbar”, in other words). But they’ve left the rest of the soundtrack in, without subtitles, but perfectly comprehensible to anyone who knows Uzbek (I can only pick up the odd word). Thus, as Chivers and Wilensky-Langford observe, you can hear the crowd quite clearly yelling “Azadlik” (freedom) as well as “Allahu Akbar”. People make speeches denouncing economic hardship and unjust imprisonment. For all their attempts to suggest that these are dangerous militants of the kind we see marching in Quetta burning US flags, the atmosphere, with its cheers, clapping and whistles, sounds more like a pop concert half the time, made all the more poignant because we know what follows. What is shocking in some ways is the normality of it all, people smiling, chatting, waving, lying on the grass, talking on their mobile phones, smoking a fag, looking excited or bewildered, amongst the burning buildings, the slightly hysterical speeches and the appeals for calm. I suppose the intention of the film is to make foreigners feel scared of this crowd of people, hundreds of whom are about to die. In this it singularly fails. Sikandarji 15:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I have to agree, there are parts that are good, but overall the article at least needs cleaning of biased parts, and expanding is a good idea too. I will keep providing some reliable sources, that will have a lot of facts needed for the article. Here are some, with quotations, but please take your time to read through all of it.
- "Activists and journalists who tried to tell the truth about the massacre have, the report says, "been arrested on spurious charges, detained, beaten, threatened, put under surveillance or under de facto house arrest, and have been set upon by mobs and humiliated through Soviet-style public denunciations..."
There will be more to come, but keep in mind that these are only quotations, and make sure to go through the links.
TheColdTruth 23:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I've found it easy to just look through achieves of BBC, UN, HRW and others, relating Andijan Massacre, so here are links to them: BBC: [14] HRW: [15] UN: [16] If you are willing to help out with improving this article, please go through these links, you'll find everything you need. Thank you TheColdTruth 23:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
TheColdTruth, thank you for the suggestions. Here are my thoughts:
Djma12 02:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Before we go back and forth accusing each other of vandalism, let's review what WP:VANDAL defines as vandalism:
Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia.
The most common types of vandalism include the addition of obscenities to pages, page blanking, or the insertion of bad (or good) jokes or other nonsense. Fortunately, these types of vandalism are usually easy to spot.
Any good-faith effort to improve the encyclopedia, even if misguided or ill-considered, is not vandalism.
Though you may disagree with an edit, please refrain from characterizing edits as "vandalism" without evidence of such. Djma12 21:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Ask Cs if he considers those edits reversions. Djma12 02:49, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Is a weak theory at best. More of a rumour. There are thousand tales told in the region. I dont understand how it goes to the top. cs 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Nobody until now questioned the causality of businessmen issue. That is the primary reason cited by the participants of the protests. Clan dispute is different. Was there any recorded slogan about the fired governor? Were the protestors shouting slogans in support of the fired governor showing signs that indeed was a part of the protests? Is there any reference to it in the countless interviews with the protestors, published so far? Is there really a compelling causal link forcing us to rethink that in fact the protestors were there for a reason other than what they express? cs 18:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than a constant back-and-forth between 3-4 editors, why don't we ask for some
third-party evaluation of what a neutral introduction should be? We would appreciate evaluation on:
Regards, Djma12 00:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest:
A short introduction should merely introduce the issues and the major POV dispute. The KazakhPol version fails NPOV by endorsing the government version only (and not even the current government version at that). Both versions go into too much detail for an introduction. Both fail to identify the permanent damage done to US-Uzbek relations because of Andijan.
Note that I've added some additional sources above. TedFrank 08:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd support most of that (and am very glad to see Adeeb Khalid's book cited - it's excellent). One thing I would say is that even before the massacre the Uzbek Government had been gradually distancing itself from its western allies, and I suspect the airbase at Khanabad would have been closed that year anyway. Sikandarji 11:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I have tried and failed to find a source for: "There is some information that on May 14 nearly 200 people (possibly armed people, who tried to flee to Kyrgyzstan) were killed in Pahtaabad, 30 km north-west of Andijan." Can anyone find a source for this? This is an opportunity to help improve the article... KazakhPol 00:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
This section as written is contradictory. The subsections need to be merged. - TedFrank 09:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I already provided a third party source for the clan dispute. There is no reason to remove it. KazakhPol 19:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
TheColdTruth removed the following content today:
In the same edits he removed to citation missing templates for an uncited paragraph, but did not add citations. When I reverted his edits, he posted the following message on my talkpage:
Note that nowhere in his edits to this page on March 22 did he change the date. Perhaps he/she is confused. KazakhPol 05:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
One user, KazakhPol in particular(who is known for pushing everything-terrorism subjects and views), wants this article to be part of Terrorism Category. However, the only thing related to terrorism is that the Uzbek government, which has been established as being corrupt by the Western World, blamed the massacre on terrorists, at first. The whole article has nothing to do with terrorism, in addition the Uzbek government has acknowledged that the mass killing of protesters was done by them, all though they are saying it was the solely local government's fault. Besides KazakhPol does anyone find this article appropriate being in terrorism category? If not it will be removed from the category. TheColdTruth 17:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You both have already stated your desire to have this category removed. This is nothing new. You have no grounds to remove the category, the statement that the government acknowledged a mass killing is false, and you apparently have not read the guideline on Category:Designated terrorist organizations which clearly applies in this case. KazakhPol 20:15, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
TCT, do you have a cite for the Uzbek government blaming it on the local government? I recall seeing that, too, but can't find it quickly. It is definitely the case that the government no longer claims that this was a terrorist attack. -- THF 14:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
As I promised March 11, I've done an extensive rewrite of the article ( before and after), reflecting the OSCE report, which is the most comprehensive report on the massacre, yet was not cited once in the main article. Main changes:
-- THF 14:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Reverting two hours of work that fixed an incoherent article is not productive. I've added an NPOV tag to reflect your concerns. Let's talk on the talk page. You haven't sourced any of your disputes. -- THF 14:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this section is appropriate or adds anything encyclopedic. What basis is there for including it? -- THF 14:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
The only cite for "interior ministry" in the old version was this article quoting a single anonymous soldier [22]; the words "Interior Ministry" are entirely absent. -- THF 15:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I've looked at the old version of the article, and there are no sources disputing that the base was yanked because of American reaction to the Andijan massacre. If KazakhPol is going to dispute this, he needs a verifiable reliable source. -- THF 15:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
So what is your proposed language? Every source acknowledges that it had an effect, which is all the main text does. -- THF 15:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
-- THF 15:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Last few changes are good, but I would still prefer that the clan dispute be mentioned early on. I have found another source that discusses this in greater depth, but I am not sure how to best incorporate it. See [25] Could we get an outside opinion here? Perhaps post on the Central Asia wikiproject talkpage? KazakhPol 20:44, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
CA-Institute concluded the clan theory was accurate. Show changes does not work because he moved the paragraph so you cant see how it was altered. KazakhPol 20:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The "17th air-assault brigade and a battalion of specialized operations from the Eastern military district is part of the MVD-Interior Ministry. Could we change the intro to say "Interior Ministry and National Security Service" troops? KazakhPol 20:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
B-class seems awfully low given that it's a controversial topic without any real NPOV disputes, heavily cited, and fairly informative. THF 22:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to notice this, what does it have to do anything with the article, other than that Uzbek government () initially blamed the massacre on terrorists, in reality it is just a excuse the govt. uses against similar events in Uzbekistan(even the article has this quoted), anyways why does terrorism have to do anything with Andijan massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.243.173.33 ( talk) 01:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I have removed this section which read:
'Soldiers took protesters and witnesses hostage, tied them up, and beat them. According to Central Asia expert Shirin Akiner whose views are considered by many Western experts as pro-Uzbek government, others were "mutilated and shot; one man had both his ears sliced off and another had his eye poked out." [2]'
This is a blatant twisting of the original (cut and pasted from Akiner's report) :
"By about 8.00 am people were beginning to gather in the square. No one had any idea of what had happened and some people entered the building to go to work. They were taken hostage. Soldiers and others were also taken hostage. They were tied up and some were badly beaten. Others were mutilated and shot; one man had both his ears sliced off and another had his eye poked out (account given by hostage – Hos1)." (Akiner, op cit p 17) Camel droppings ( talk) 15:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
References
DOCUMENTING
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Hello, Your "A" class article is a good example for us and I have been looking it over closely.
I am one of the editors working hard on the 2010 Copiapó mining accident article. It has come a very long way in a very short period of time and now that it has fallen off the main page and pedestrian edits have subsided, we would like to prepare it for reassessment. The article is currently rated as "C" class across the board but much has been done since then.
I think one section, or series of sections our is missing is coverage of the international contributions to the effort. Another section that we may need to add is a professional critique of the government's handling of the entire search and rescue operation. The latter section may be difficult to do since most of the coverage appears to be laudatory in nature. Any advice on how to best present that or locating more professional, critical sources would be appreciated. Not looking to add anti-gov propaganda and hatred to it, just balanced critique.
I would like to invite the editors who have helped build this great article to visit our article and offer any gut level advice on what more we need to work on.
Sincerely, Veriss ( talk) 01:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
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The title should be a bit more neutral. "Massacre" implies an attack on masses of unarmed civilians; in Andijan, like the massacres on unarmed Hindus in East Pakistan and the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The article itself notes that it began with violent revolts and a prison break, the introduction section reads "The Uzbek government at first said the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan organized the unrest and the protesters were members of Hizb ut-Tahrir. Critics argue that the Islamist radical label is just a pretext for maintaining a repressive regime in the country. Whether troops fired indiscriminately to prevent a color revolution or acted legitimately to quell a prison break is also disputed." While the exact motivations of troops are disputed, the title implies that there is no dispute at hand and the incident was purely a massacre. The prison revolt was led by armed gunmen, hence this is not a clear-cut massacre on unarmed individuals. More appropriate titles would be 2005 Andijan Unrest, 2005 Andijan Violence, 2005 Andijan Uprisings, 2005 Andijan Skirmishes...-- PlanespotterA320 ( talk) 23:25, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
Lingveno is right. And contra PlanespotterA320, the title has made a judgment. 'Unrest' is without question making a judgment! I support the change of the title, and I ask for this discussion to be taken up by others. This was a massacre. There is no supposed technical or academic definition of the word 'massacre' that will be relevant: when events are named by the public, through a process involving many, they don't follow some sort of textbook definition of what someone might want the word 'massacre' to mean in some technical context. I'll appeal to any readers who came to this article and are now reading this talk page. Did you come here prompted by reading something about this event, or hearing or watching something about this event, and the something you read or heard or saw involved the word 'massacre'? I suspect for some of you the answer is, like me, yes. I was listening to a podcast, heard a reference to an Uzbekistan massacre, wanted to learn more about it, fired up Wikipedia, met the word 'unrest' and thought 'oh, here we go. someone cleaning this up.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.135.63 ( talk) 05:33, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
How is it that a massacre of this scale and article depth has no images documenting the event, mass graves, etc? Silenceisgod ( talk) 04:06, 13 May 2021 (UTC)