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I made a larger edit today, which was surprisingly contested and almost entirely reverted by my dear colleague Debresser.
Here are my arguments, one by one.
Why a distinct paragraph about "Second Temple Period synagogues". The pre-/post- 70 CE distinction is essential. Pre-70 CE synagogues are of high interest to both Jews (before Yavneh and Yohanan ben Zakkai they only served as place of reading the Bible, not for prayer), and Christians (Jesus preached in many of them).
I used the term Land of Israel in the context of ancient synagogues because synagogues are, by definition, places of religious activity, and in Judaism the religious activities within the halakhically clearly defined borders of the "Land of Israel" are radically different from those outside these borders. The Byzantine-era mosaic of Rehob, among others, proves how well-aware Jews were of these borders, even if they meant economic hardship (sabbatical year obligation of [not] harvesting the fields), and even in times when no worldly authority was around to enforce them - on the contrary, when defining oneself as Jewish led to persecution.
The Capernaum synagogue as "the best preserved" one: a) The older (basalt) structure is not proven to be a synagogue, and is anything but well-preserved. The comment only refers to the 4th-century "white synagogue", which is not made clear. b) The 2012 comment is outdated. Umm el-Kanatir can easily contest the title: a 2-floor structure that seems to be pretty much complete to the last stone; is being reconstructed by an Israeli archaeologist who has already reached the 2nd floor level. It was found collapsed, but the "white synagogue" of Capernaum was also reconstructed by Franciscans using collapsed elements, there was almost nothing left standing when they first arrived. c) It's a silly topic to begin with.
"Gamla - oldest known Palestinian synagogue": maybe as of 2012, but outdated by now - see Modi'in's Kh. Umm el-Umdan, dated to the end of the 2nd c. - beginning of the 1st c. BCE.
Migdal/Magdala: Magdala is the Aramaic name, which was in use at the time when the synagogue was built. It is also how the most recognisable name associated with it came to be: Mary Magdalene = Mary of Magdala. So adding it makes perfect sense. FYI: Migdal (Hebr.), Magdala (Aramaic), al-Majdal/el-Mejdel (Arabic).
Adding "Tulul Abu el-Alayiq" to "Wadi Qelt": That's how it's known from those who discovered it, i.e. Ehud Netzer & Co. The Wadi is long, the site's name is Tulul Abu el-Alayiq, period. There are many sites in Wadi Qelt, which are not at Alayiq.
Added"refers to the modern State of Israel" next to the link Ancient synagogues in Israel: WHO can really be bothered by this?!! OK, and beyond that: Making a clear distinction between State of Israel and in the scope of the two pages dealing with Ancient synagogues in Israel and Ancient synagogues in Palestine is more than needed. Israel is shorthand for Jacob, the children of Israel, the Land of Israel, the United Monarchy, the northern kingdom, AND the modern state. Sufficiently argued? Concrete case of confusion: I looked up smth. on the "Israel" page and thought I'm reading a Hamas brochure till I understood that it's an (as such almost useless) sub-page of the larger "Palestine" page, which was only mentioned at "Also see", a category easily missed by most. Arminden ( talk) 18:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I introduced the following sub-paragraph, and Debresser removed it for formal reasons (not discussed on talk-page). I am convinced - no, I know - this info is needed and useful, so I place it here so it can be reintroduced by whoever as soon as the opposition to it ceases. Of course, reference and reformatting as a table can only enhance it, but that's how material usually makes it into articles: step by step. As it is, it's already a) up-to-date and complete, b) properly linked to WP articles, and c) useful to students and other users, which should always be our main (if not only) criterium. Cheeres, Arminden ( talk) 06:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Here is a list of all the structures from the Land of Israel discovered so far and interpreted by some as Second Temple Period synagogues. The list is set up in a tentatively chronological order according to the excavators' estimate of the time of construction.
Location -- Built; in use till -- Discovered by -- Comments/reservations
-- Also suggested --
I updated the list and added sources. I added an intro regarding the fact that Second Temple period synagogues served a different purpose than those in use after 70 CE.
Debresser: "Palestine" is clearly defined here in the lead as Palestine (region), which is about the same as the Land of Israel. Nothing to do with modern politics. So then yes, Masada, Capernaum, Tel Rekhesh, Chorazin, Qumran are indeed in this geographical region. Btw, Ancient synagogues in Israel is a lost case, utterly abandoned, incomplete, and I dare say, useless, since the "politically correct" camp disconnected it from its logical & archaeological context - leaving us now with this article instead. I linked that article by hattag or what it's called to this, and that's all one can do. Arminden ( talk) 14:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
The Golan Heights were - all or partially - part of: the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Alexander Jannaeus' Hasmonean kingdom after his last campaign, Herod's kingdom, his son's Philip the Tetrarch's realm (in Jesus' time!), Syria Palaestina, Palaestina Secunda... Golan was for a looong time undisputed part of Palestine. Just check the scholarly sources in the "References": Gamla synagogue had the most seating places IN PALESTINE. Etc. The synagogues we're talking about here are precisely from these periods: the Hasmonean, Herodian, Roman and Byzantine periods. When there was a continuum of culture and habitation for Jews from Judaea, Perea, Galilee and Gaulanitis. Enough argued? Meant for Greyshark09 and anyone who mixes up politics with scholarly discussions. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 19:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
"Ancient" in English covers everything from before the modern era (19th c., probably the Egyptian invasion is the best time limit). But those can be made part of another category, say "Synagogues in Muslim-era Palestine", to include 638-1918. There are very few examples from the Early Muslim period, about the rest I'm not informed. The Crusader/Ayyubid period is probably not represented, or very little, and about the Mamluk and Early Ottoman periods we need somebody knowledgeable. In Jerusalem there are a few. Arminden ( talk) 17:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Synagogues are a religious institution in Judaism and Samaritanism, where the "Land of Israel", Eretz Israel, is a religious concept with well-defined borders in the specific periods we're talking about, borders which are very relevant in the conduct of religious life (see Laws and customs of the Land of Israel in Judaism). There is no connection whatsoever between the concept of "ancient synagogues in the Land of Israel", which only refers a) to synagogues, and b) to the time span when they flourished, i.e. between the Late Second Temple/Roman period and the Byzantine period, and modern political discussions on what the "Promised Land" encompasses or not. The term Palestine is misleading and out of place in this context, adds nothing, is quite naturally uncommon in academic literature dealing with the topic, and gives rise here to a lot of confusion and to comments like those above, including "why the Golan" etc.. You may also check the Rehov synagogue inscription (section "Legal (halakhic) background") to remember what the topic is about and that the definition was back then literally "set in stone". So for the time period we're dealing with here, "Land of Israel" is not just the correct and very precise term, but a highly significant one in religious practice in Judaism - and we're talking synagogues.
The leading authors in the field wouldn't even consider a different term and regularly split their works in chapters about "The Land of Israel" and "The Diaspora" - see for instance A. Runesson, D. Binder, B. Olsson (BRILL, 2008), The Ancient Synagogue from its Origins to 200 C.E.: A Sourcebook, Steven Fine, ed. (Oxford U. Press & Yeshiva University Museum, 1996), Sacred Realm: The Emergence of the Synagogue in the Ancient World, or Rachel Hachlili (BRILL, 1988), Ancient Jewish Art and Archaeology in the Land of Israel.
So, can we do the right thing and forget for once about "The Conflict" (still not enough capital letters...) when dealing with topics 1.5-2 millennia old? Arminden ( talk) 17:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Lots of anonymous vandalism lately.
I still believe in what I wrote here-above (see last posting, from 5 Dec 2021), but once we have agreed on a definition, as long as it stands, it should be protected. Who can put in the proper protection? Thanks. Arminden ( talk) 10:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
has been protected for a week, I meant that it was protected for a week starting from 02:10, 31 May. That means that the protection will expire at 02:10, 7 June, one week after the protection began. Hopefully it'll be clearer looking at the article history. Sdrqaz ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Gerasa had a relatively large Jewish community whose synagogue was confiscated in the 6th c. and transformed into a church. Its mosaic floor is well documented, see Synagogue-Church at Gerasa. I am not aware of other synagogue remains in Jordan, but given the fact that the Hasmoneans and Herod ruled over parts of Transjordan, I'd be surprised if Gerasa were the only place. Arminden ( talk) 02:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Eretz Yisrael, lit. Land of Israel, is and has been for at least 2 millennia the name used by Jews. Palestine region is a Wikipedia construct. The ancient synagogues who are the very topic of this article were built by Jews and Samaritans, who have never used "Palestine" in their own liturgical and vernacular languages of the time. It's beyond illogical to remove Land of Israel and keep Palestine region: it's the exact opposite of logical. Not unexpected, but still reaching a level of militant Wiki activism that puts the whole project to shame. When "struggle for the cause" (whichever cause) becomes "struggle against intelligence", Newspeak-style "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength" patterns have been hit and we've reached Orwellian rock bottom. Good night eveybody, daylight is far away. Arminden ( talk) 23:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This page has archives. Sections older than 365 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 8 sections are present. |
I made a larger edit today, which was surprisingly contested and almost entirely reverted by my dear colleague Debresser.
Here are my arguments, one by one.
Why a distinct paragraph about "Second Temple Period synagogues". The pre-/post- 70 CE distinction is essential. Pre-70 CE synagogues are of high interest to both Jews (before Yavneh and Yohanan ben Zakkai they only served as place of reading the Bible, not for prayer), and Christians (Jesus preached in many of them).
I used the term Land of Israel in the context of ancient synagogues because synagogues are, by definition, places of religious activity, and in Judaism the religious activities within the halakhically clearly defined borders of the "Land of Israel" are radically different from those outside these borders. The Byzantine-era mosaic of Rehob, among others, proves how well-aware Jews were of these borders, even if they meant economic hardship (sabbatical year obligation of [not] harvesting the fields), and even in times when no worldly authority was around to enforce them - on the contrary, when defining oneself as Jewish led to persecution.
The Capernaum synagogue as "the best preserved" one: a) The older (basalt) structure is not proven to be a synagogue, and is anything but well-preserved. The comment only refers to the 4th-century "white synagogue", which is not made clear. b) The 2012 comment is outdated. Umm el-Kanatir can easily contest the title: a 2-floor structure that seems to be pretty much complete to the last stone; is being reconstructed by an Israeli archaeologist who has already reached the 2nd floor level. It was found collapsed, but the "white synagogue" of Capernaum was also reconstructed by Franciscans using collapsed elements, there was almost nothing left standing when they first arrived. c) It's a silly topic to begin with.
"Gamla - oldest known Palestinian synagogue": maybe as of 2012, but outdated by now - see Modi'in's Kh. Umm el-Umdan, dated to the end of the 2nd c. - beginning of the 1st c. BCE.
Migdal/Magdala: Magdala is the Aramaic name, which was in use at the time when the synagogue was built. It is also how the most recognisable name associated with it came to be: Mary Magdalene = Mary of Magdala. So adding it makes perfect sense. FYI: Migdal (Hebr.), Magdala (Aramaic), al-Majdal/el-Mejdel (Arabic).
Adding "Tulul Abu el-Alayiq" to "Wadi Qelt": That's how it's known from those who discovered it, i.e. Ehud Netzer & Co. The Wadi is long, the site's name is Tulul Abu el-Alayiq, period. There are many sites in Wadi Qelt, which are not at Alayiq.
Added"refers to the modern State of Israel" next to the link Ancient synagogues in Israel: WHO can really be bothered by this?!! OK, and beyond that: Making a clear distinction between State of Israel and in the scope of the two pages dealing with Ancient synagogues in Israel and Ancient synagogues in Palestine is more than needed. Israel is shorthand for Jacob, the children of Israel, the Land of Israel, the United Monarchy, the northern kingdom, AND the modern state. Sufficiently argued? Concrete case of confusion: I looked up smth. on the "Israel" page and thought I'm reading a Hamas brochure till I understood that it's an (as such almost useless) sub-page of the larger "Palestine" page, which was only mentioned at "Also see", a category easily missed by most. Arminden ( talk) 18:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
I introduced the following sub-paragraph, and Debresser removed it for formal reasons (not discussed on talk-page). I am convinced - no, I know - this info is needed and useful, so I place it here so it can be reintroduced by whoever as soon as the opposition to it ceases. Of course, reference and reformatting as a table can only enhance it, but that's how material usually makes it into articles: step by step. As it is, it's already a) up-to-date and complete, b) properly linked to WP articles, and c) useful to students and other users, which should always be our main (if not only) criterium. Cheeres, Arminden ( talk) 06:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
Here is a list of all the structures from the Land of Israel discovered so far and interpreted by some as Second Temple Period synagogues. The list is set up in a tentatively chronological order according to the excavators' estimate of the time of construction.
Location -- Built; in use till -- Discovered by -- Comments/reservations
-- Also suggested --
I updated the list and added sources. I added an intro regarding the fact that Second Temple period synagogues served a different purpose than those in use after 70 CE.
Debresser: "Palestine" is clearly defined here in the lead as Palestine (region), which is about the same as the Land of Israel. Nothing to do with modern politics. So then yes, Masada, Capernaum, Tel Rekhesh, Chorazin, Qumran are indeed in this geographical region. Btw, Ancient synagogues in Israel is a lost case, utterly abandoned, incomplete, and I dare say, useless, since the "politically correct" camp disconnected it from its logical & archaeological context - leaving us now with this article instead. I linked that article by hattag or what it's called to this, and that's all one can do. Arminden ( talk) 14:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
The Golan Heights were - all or partially - part of: the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Alexander Jannaeus' Hasmonean kingdom after his last campaign, Herod's kingdom, his son's Philip the Tetrarch's realm (in Jesus' time!), Syria Palaestina, Palaestina Secunda... Golan was for a looong time undisputed part of Palestine. Just check the scholarly sources in the "References": Gamla synagogue had the most seating places IN PALESTINE. Etc. The synagogues we're talking about here are precisely from these periods: the Hasmonean, Herodian, Roman and Byzantine periods. When there was a continuum of culture and habitation for Jews from Judaea, Perea, Galilee and Gaulanitis. Enough argued? Meant for Greyshark09 and anyone who mixes up politics with scholarly discussions. Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 19:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
"Ancient" in English covers everything from before the modern era (19th c., probably the Egyptian invasion is the best time limit). But those can be made part of another category, say "Synagogues in Muslim-era Palestine", to include 638-1918. There are very few examples from the Early Muslim period, about the rest I'm not informed. The Crusader/Ayyubid period is probably not represented, or very little, and about the Mamluk and Early Ottoman periods we need somebody knowledgeable. In Jerusalem there are a few. Arminden ( talk) 17:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)
Synagogues are a religious institution in Judaism and Samaritanism, where the "Land of Israel", Eretz Israel, is a religious concept with well-defined borders in the specific periods we're talking about, borders which are very relevant in the conduct of religious life (see Laws and customs of the Land of Israel in Judaism). There is no connection whatsoever between the concept of "ancient synagogues in the Land of Israel", which only refers a) to synagogues, and b) to the time span when they flourished, i.e. between the Late Second Temple/Roman period and the Byzantine period, and modern political discussions on what the "Promised Land" encompasses or not. The term Palestine is misleading and out of place in this context, adds nothing, is quite naturally uncommon in academic literature dealing with the topic, and gives rise here to a lot of confusion and to comments like those above, including "why the Golan" etc.. You may also check the Rehov synagogue inscription (section "Legal (halakhic) background") to remember what the topic is about and that the definition was back then literally "set in stone". So for the time period we're dealing with here, "Land of Israel" is not just the correct and very precise term, but a highly significant one in religious practice in Judaism - and we're talking synagogues.
The leading authors in the field wouldn't even consider a different term and regularly split their works in chapters about "The Land of Israel" and "The Diaspora" - see for instance A. Runesson, D. Binder, B. Olsson (BRILL, 2008), The Ancient Synagogue from its Origins to 200 C.E.: A Sourcebook, Steven Fine, ed. (Oxford U. Press & Yeshiva University Museum, 1996), Sacred Realm: The Emergence of the Synagogue in the Ancient World, or Rachel Hachlili (BRILL, 1988), Ancient Jewish Art and Archaeology in the Land of Israel.
So, can we do the right thing and forget for once about "The Conflict" (still not enough capital letters...) when dealing with topics 1.5-2 millennia old? Arminden ( talk) 17:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Lots of anonymous vandalism lately.
I still believe in what I wrote here-above (see last posting, from 5 Dec 2021), but once we have agreed on a definition, as long as it stands, it should be protected. Who can put in the proper protection? Thanks. Arminden ( talk) 10:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
has been protected for a week, I meant that it was protected for a week starting from 02:10, 31 May. That means that the protection will expire at 02:10, 7 June, one week after the protection began. Hopefully it'll be clearer looking at the article history. Sdrqaz ( talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Gerasa had a relatively large Jewish community whose synagogue was confiscated in the 6th c. and transformed into a church. Its mosaic floor is well documented, see Synagogue-Church at Gerasa. I am not aware of other synagogue remains in Jordan, but given the fact that the Hasmoneans and Herod ruled over parts of Transjordan, I'd be surprised if Gerasa were the only place. Arminden ( talk) 02:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Eretz Yisrael, lit. Land of Israel, is and has been for at least 2 millennia the name used by Jews. Palestine region is a Wikipedia construct. The ancient synagogues who are the very topic of this article were built by Jews and Samaritans, who have never used "Palestine" in their own liturgical and vernacular languages of the time. It's beyond illogical to remove Land of Israel and keep Palestine region: it's the exact opposite of logical. Not unexpected, but still reaching a level of militant Wiki activism that puts the whole project to shame. When "struggle for the cause" (whichever cause) becomes "struggle against intelligence", Newspeak-style "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength" patterns have been hit and we've reached Orwellian rock bottom. Good night eveybody, daylight is far away. Arminden ( talk) 23:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)