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In the second paragraph of the article, it says that the ancient near east was the first to have slavery. This seems a bit wierd to me. Is there no known hunter-gatherer society before that that had slaves? Couldn't the absence of a knowledge of such a society have more to do with the fact that they didn't write down their history. There should at least be a reference to the statement because it is not obvious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.152.125 ( talk) 19:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Merged with Ancient Orient. I changed the definition of the end of the period to "rise of the Persian empire" – "Ancient Near East" is not commonly used to include times contemporary with Classical Antiquity. If there are usages/definitions that require it to reach until the rise of Islam, we can put that back in, saying that definitions vary. dab 10:12, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
see Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near East dab 21:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just thought I'd say so.-- Rob117 02:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the proper geographical designation as western, rather than eastern? Is this not the heritage of the Western, as opposed to Eastern world? Rhode Islander 07:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There's no chance the change above is going to happen prior to Western civ's wholesale replacement by the Middle Kingdom's, but if someone with a LEXUSNEXUS or other academic account could at least post some numbers on the frequency of "ANCIENT NEAR EAST" versus "ANCIENT MIDDLE EAST," it'd make me feel better about the current title. It's simultaneously less accessible (inter alia, it's about 30x less common on Google) and more ambiguous, not to mention less wrong-headed (Egypt and Bahrain generally aren't considered part of the Near East, but were certainly within the orbit of the ancient Mesopotamian civilizations.)
If for whatever reasons, the professional scholarly concensus is firmly behind it, we oughtn't ignore that, but otherwise it'd be better to see a move. - LlywelynII ( talk) 13:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
so, instead of a clean list, we just have the copy-pasted vesions of the intros of each article linked, stacked on top of one another without rhyme or reason. I'm not sure that's an improvement. But it may be a first step in expanding the article into prose, I suppose. Much work is needed, then. dab (𒁳) 15:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I object to being chastised as an "era warrior". [1] I respect the "BC(E) armistice", but this goes both ways. I can claim to have a long-standing involvement with this article, since late 2004 [2]. The era style used was BC well into 2006, until it was changed without discussion by an anonymous editor in July 2006 [3]. If we're going to regularize the era style, I do suggest it should be back to "BC". dab (𒁳) 17:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
dates in periodisation for kingdom of israel seem wrong, according to kingdom of israel page dates were from 1050 BCE until 930 BCE. Periodisation currently places it in the category 900 to 700 BCE. This is a bit different isn't it? Also Phrygia date seems to be 1200 BCE on the Phrygia page and is also in this 900 to 700 BCE category. Who did this periodisation page? I am not used to wikipedia editing, so someone else who is better at clearing up and checking all these dates please clear up periodisation section for me. Israel should clearly be higher up in the timeline than it has been made to appear.
Don't write "modern..." regarding the middle east. If it has to be there, don't be surprised if it's being changed to fit the accepted NPOV. TFighterPilot ( talk) 14:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The topic is of course somewhat confusing because of the variable definitions of Near East and the question of Middle East. These questions have been addressed on WP with an acceptable definitions of the terms. The problem is, this article does not seem to know a thing about it. It seems to me it needs a brief introduction to the concept of Near East. I have written it. It should go a long way toward easing the inner anguish of those who long have understood the Near East to be something else. This section basically summarizes concepts presented in Near East. It does not therefore need to reinvent the wheel with references. I feel the blue links to other, heavily referenced articles, covers the matter for this section. Dave ( talk) 14:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Civilizations arise in agricultural nuclear areas. The Neolithic creates enough wealth to start a bronze age. So Braidwood spenda a lot of time developing "the nuclear area" from which the civilization of the ancient near east develops. That is all still true except for one development since Braidwood: the discovery of multiple nuclear areas and multiple cradles of civilization. They aren't the ones us white folks came from. They were all contributary to the matrix that is modern technological civilization but that event was not discovered until the late 20th. So, a major philosophic problem with this article is that it talks about THE cradle of civilization, just as Breasted once talked about the great white race until his students scrubbed his work up. The article in essence is an imperial British one. So, to fix it, someone needs to go through and remove all the implications that civilization began in this region. That was only one beginning. We must be able to do that without covering the others here but linking in to what WP has on them. It is the implications that often make an article right or wrong. Dave ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I researched the history of this concept under Near East and found considerable misunderstandings. Some of these were mine, as I possess the standard education also. As it is seldom too late to reform, and never too late to repent, I corrected this subsection, which now must be seen as a lead-in to the Near East article. Dave ( talk) 14:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Why is "Ancient" capitalized in "Ancient Near East" throughout the article? I don't see why it should be; see [4] for example. InverseHypercube 00:23, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I supose that Levant has a relation with Lebanon. Apart from that Cyprus and Crete are too far away from Palaistine, Israel and Syria. Secondly, the population of these islands was greek and not semitic, so there is no reason that these islands were included in Levant. -- Περίεργος ( talk) 05:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I rewrote the second paragraph of the lead for better readability. Hope it meets with approval. SereneRain ( talk) 00:16, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
On this topic I'm just a regular user. The page does not define a time frame in the lead, just a geographical one, and that leaves users like me highly unsatisfied.
If you are dealing with prehistory just for offering a CONTEXT, then pls. write this explicitely. Thank you, Arminden ( talk) 22:25, 15 February 2016 (UTC)Arminden
John, hi. The confusing bit is that the article includes quite a lot about prehistory. It's either in (shouldn't - ?), or out, or if it's just helping with the wider context, then it should be clearly indicated. Agree? Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 17:16, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Aha. I thought it does depend on the appearance of literacy. Then back to square one: what DOES define it? It's not clearly stated. Why Sumer and not earlier Anatolian temple builders? Once I can read the lead and get an answer to this simple question, I'll stop annoying :-)
As long as the definition is not clear, there's no firm ground for the rest. Dates as such vary widely out there. I was just about to include the following in the article, but then I stopped waiting for more opinions:
Alternative definitions push the end of the era all the way until the Arab conquest of the Sasanian Empire and the eastern parts of the Byzantine Empire during the 7th century AD. [1]
Definition problem... The Parthian and Sasanian empires could be included, the Hellenistic civilisations maybe too, pushing the end date by a full millennium. The Met seems to include parts of the prehistory, too, but where is the limit? We cannot ignore this wide range of dates, but a few solid sources would close the issue.
Here an example: Brian A. Brown, Marian H. Feldman (editors; 2013). Critical Approaches to Ancient Near Eastern Art. Ancient Near East at Google Books It goes by the current, "classical" time frame, but says that current research is pushing the starting date farther & farther back, and that Parthians and Sasanians are floating uneasily in a no-man's land between ANE and Islamic era. My whole point is: one gets confused bumping into contradictory sources, comes to WP for clarification - and finds that the ANE article, nice and systematic as it is, offers no clear definition, supports a rather conservative and undifferentiated view, and doesn't support it with sufficient sources. I just looked up the German WP article, and that is by far more elaborate [5]. They make a difference between the working domain of ANE archaeologists, ending with the fall of the Sassanian Empire (651 CE), and that of ANE historians, which is usually ending in ca. 332 BC, and for some with the fall of the Parthian Empire (early C3 CE). So I'm sorted, those who don't read German - less so. Cheers, Arminden Arminden ( talk) 19:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
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Last mention of Canaan and/or Israelites is in the Middle Bronze Age? On the other hand, somebody introduced, unopposed, the "Kingdom of Israel" in the Middle BA, and linked (the State of) Israel into a BA context. So the Canaan/Israel & Judah topic within the article has been left to Hisballah & the Jewish settler movement to be taken care of. Wikipedia, sweet dreams & good riddance. Arminden ( talk) 14:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Iron Age II is a nonsensical redirect leading straight back to Iron Age. It needs to be removed. I made a note on the talk-page there, but who does ever read redirect talk-page posts?
What's the correct removal application procedure?
However, we would very much need at least a dedicated section if not an article for each subset of the Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages. Those will indeed need to be wikilinked to the respective periods, everywhere. Creating redirects will also start making sense. Arminden ( talk) 09:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
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In the second paragraph of the article, it says that the ancient near east was the first to have slavery. This seems a bit wierd to me. Is there no known hunter-gatherer society before that that had slaves? Couldn't the absence of a knowledge of such a society have more to do with the fact that they didn't write down their history. There should at least be a reference to the statement because it is not obvious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.152.125 ( talk) 19:28, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Merged with Ancient Orient. I changed the definition of the end of the period to "rise of the Persian empire" – "Ancient Near East" is not commonly used to include times contemporary with Classical Antiquity. If there are usages/definitions that require it to reach until the rise of Islam, we can put that back in, saying that definitions vary. dab 10:12, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
see Wikipedia:WikiProject Ancient Near East dab 21:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Just thought I'd say so.-- Rob117 02:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the proper geographical designation as western, rather than eastern? Is this not the heritage of the Western, as opposed to Eastern world? Rhode Islander 07:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
There's no chance the change above is going to happen prior to Western civ's wholesale replacement by the Middle Kingdom's, but if someone with a LEXUSNEXUS or other academic account could at least post some numbers on the frequency of "ANCIENT NEAR EAST" versus "ANCIENT MIDDLE EAST," it'd make me feel better about the current title. It's simultaneously less accessible (inter alia, it's about 30x less common on Google) and more ambiguous, not to mention less wrong-headed (Egypt and Bahrain generally aren't considered part of the Near East, but were certainly within the orbit of the ancient Mesopotamian civilizations.)
If for whatever reasons, the professional scholarly concensus is firmly behind it, we oughtn't ignore that, but otherwise it'd be better to see a move. - LlywelynII ( talk) 13:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
so, instead of a clean list, we just have the copy-pasted vesions of the intros of each article linked, stacked on top of one another without rhyme or reason. I'm not sure that's an improvement. But it may be a first step in expanding the article into prose, I suppose. Much work is needed, then. dab (𒁳) 15:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I object to being chastised as an "era warrior". [1] I respect the "BC(E) armistice", but this goes both ways. I can claim to have a long-standing involvement with this article, since late 2004 [2]. The era style used was BC well into 2006, until it was changed without discussion by an anonymous editor in July 2006 [3]. If we're going to regularize the era style, I do suggest it should be back to "BC". dab (𒁳) 17:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
dates in periodisation for kingdom of israel seem wrong, according to kingdom of israel page dates were from 1050 BCE until 930 BCE. Periodisation currently places it in the category 900 to 700 BCE. This is a bit different isn't it? Also Phrygia date seems to be 1200 BCE on the Phrygia page and is also in this 900 to 700 BCE category. Who did this periodisation page? I am not used to wikipedia editing, so someone else who is better at clearing up and checking all these dates please clear up periodisation section for me. Israel should clearly be higher up in the timeline than it has been made to appear.
Don't write "modern..." regarding the middle east. If it has to be there, don't be surprised if it's being changed to fit the accepted NPOV. TFighterPilot ( talk) 14:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
The topic is of course somewhat confusing because of the variable definitions of Near East and the question of Middle East. These questions have been addressed on WP with an acceptable definitions of the terms. The problem is, this article does not seem to know a thing about it. It seems to me it needs a brief introduction to the concept of Near East. I have written it. It should go a long way toward easing the inner anguish of those who long have understood the Near East to be something else. This section basically summarizes concepts presented in Near East. It does not therefore need to reinvent the wheel with references. I feel the blue links to other, heavily referenced articles, covers the matter for this section. Dave ( talk) 14:28, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Civilizations arise in agricultural nuclear areas. The Neolithic creates enough wealth to start a bronze age. So Braidwood spenda a lot of time developing "the nuclear area" from which the civilization of the ancient near east develops. That is all still true except for one development since Braidwood: the discovery of multiple nuclear areas and multiple cradles of civilization. They aren't the ones us white folks came from. They were all contributary to the matrix that is modern technological civilization but that event was not discovered until the late 20th. So, a major philosophic problem with this article is that it talks about THE cradle of civilization, just as Breasted once talked about the great white race until his students scrubbed his work up. The article in essence is an imperial British one. So, to fix it, someone needs to go through and remove all the implications that civilization began in this region. That was only one beginning. We must be able to do that without covering the others here but linking in to what WP has on them. It is the implications that often make an article right or wrong. Dave ( talk) 17:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I researched the history of this concept under Near East and found considerable misunderstandings. Some of these were mine, as I possess the standard education also. As it is seldom too late to reform, and never too late to repent, I corrected this subsection, which now must be seen as a lead-in to the Near East article. Dave ( talk) 14:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Why is "Ancient" capitalized in "Ancient Near East" throughout the article? I don't see why it should be; see [4] for example. InverseHypercube 00:23, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
I supose that Levant has a relation with Lebanon. Apart from that Cyprus and Crete are too far away from Palaistine, Israel and Syria. Secondly, the population of these islands was greek and not semitic, so there is no reason that these islands were included in Levant. -- Περίεργος ( talk) 05:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I rewrote the second paragraph of the lead for better readability. Hope it meets with approval. SereneRain ( talk) 00:16, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
On this topic I'm just a regular user. The page does not define a time frame in the lead, just a geographical one, and that leaves users like me highly unsatisfied.
If you are dealing with prehistory just for offering a CONTEXT, then pls. write this explicitely. Thank you, Arminden ( talk) 22:25, 15 February 2016 (UTC)Arminden
John, hi. The confusing bit is that the article includes quite a lot about prehistory. It's either in (shouldn't - ?), or out, or if it's just helping with the wider context, then it should be clearly indicated. Agree? Cheers, Arminden ( talk) 17:16, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
Aha. I thought it does depend on the appearance of literacy. Then back to square one: what DOES define it? It's not clearly stated. Why Sumer and not earlier Anatolian temple builders? Once I can read the lead and get an answer to this simple question, I'll stop annoying :-)
As long as the definition is not clear, there's no firm ground for the rest. Dates as such vary widely out there. I was just about to include the following in the article, but then I stopped waiting for more opinions:
Alternative definitions push the end of the era all the way until the Arab conquest of the Sasanian Empire and the eastern parts of the Byzantine Empire during the 7th century AD. [1]
Definition problem... The Parthian and Sasanian empires could be included, the Hellenistic civilisations maybe too, pushing the end date by a full millennium. The Met seems to include parts of the prehistory, too, but where is the limit? We cannot ignore this wide range of dates, but a few solid sources would close the issue.
Here an example: Brian A. Brown, Marian H. Feldman (editors; 2013). Critical Approaches to Ancient Near Eastern Art. Ancient Near East at Google Books It goes by the current, "classical" time frame, but says that current research is pushing the starting date farther & farther back, and that Parthians and Sasanians are floating uneasily in a no-man's land between ANE and Islamic era. My whole point is: one gets confused bumping into contradictory sources, comes to WP for clarification - and finds that the ANE article, nice and systematic as it is, offers no clear definition, supports a rather conservative and undifferentiated view, and doesn't support it with sufficient sources. I just looked up the German WP article, and that is by far more elaborate [5]. They make a difference between the working domain of ANE archaeologists, ending with the fall of the Sassanian Empire (651 CE), and that of ANE historians, which is usually ending in ca. 332 BC, and for some with the fall of the Parthian Empire (early C3 CE). So I'm sorted, those who don't read German - less so. Cheers, Arminden Arminden ( talk) 19:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
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Last mention of Canaan and/or Israelites is in the Middle Bronze Age? On the other hand, somebody introduced, unopposed, the "Kingdom of Israel" in the Middle BA, and linked (the State of) Israel into a BA context. So the Canaan/Israel & Judah topic within the article has been left to Hisballah & the Jewish settler movement to be taken care of. Wikipedia, sweet dreams & good riddance. Arminden ( talk) 14:35, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
Iron Age II is a nonsensical redirect leading straight back to Iron Age. It needs to be removed. I made a note on the talk-page there, but who does ever read redirect talk-page posts?
What's the correct removal application procedure?
However, we would very much need at least a dedicated section if not an article for each subset of the Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages. Those will indeed need to be wikilinked to the respective periods, everywhere. Creating redirects will also start making sense. Arminden ( talk) 09:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)