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Am I correct in believing that the Hesychius Glosses contained rare words that Hesychius considered dialectic? With regard to the more detailed material in the Talk section, the treatment in the article is rather cursory. The so-called Properties might give the impression of there being special features, especially with some morphology noted by Panayotou being contrasted with 'standard Greek', the definition of which is uncertain, since some of the Macedonian forms (which were not unique or even uncommon) became standard (e.g. the first declension noun grammar and the loss of 'sth' aspiration), or were the standard (e.g. syncope). The proposed 'occasional' examples of voiced aspirates (if that is what they were, which Babiniotis doubts) pronounced as voiced stops are not unique to ancient Macedonian. In any case, of the properties given, none seems exclusive to ancient Macedonian. Ancient Macedonian could be more usefully compared to ancient Epirotan or Thessalian, which are neighbouring forms. Attic is obviously a standard reference but not always a useful comparison. Late Attic itself is quite unusual in its peculiar orthography following the 403BC reform and is also atypical in some of its morphology. Is ancient Macedonian truly special with some such regard, when compared to Epirotan or Thessalian? If so, any such genuine peculiarities should be included in the article. Other than the few interesting Macedonian words in the Glosses, is there something that is especially unique about ancient Macedonian, except of course for the hot air? Skamnelis ( talk) 17:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Please, do not revert solely due to no consensus, read WP:DRNC. Judist ( talk) 05:56, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
There are no examples of literature surviving which makes it difficult to investigate Ancient Macedonian precisely, which is also the case for the neighbouring Illyrian languages and Thracian languages. There is a disagreement among scholars as to whether Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect or a separate language.<ref>[[Jackson J. Spielvogel]].''Western Civilization: A Brief History, Volume I: To 1715''. Cengage Learning, 2013. p. 70</ref>
There is a disagreement among scholars as to whether Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect or a separate language.is full of weasel-type generalisations. "Disagreement" is a vague weasel word. How big is the disagreement? Who disagrees? What does the majority of the scholars think? etc.. Please do not continue to add this until there is agreement at the talkpage as to the inclusion of this material in the article and in what form. Dr. K. 18:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone know if there is a published comparative analysis of the Macedonian words in Hesychius' glossary to the ones in Pella curse tablet? Is that the same language/dialect? To me, as a non-linguist and also a person who speaks neither Ancient nor Modern Greek the language of the Pella curse tablet seems more Greek than the one in Hesychius' glossary. Some words from the latter source are said to "reveal, for example, voiced stops where Greek shows voiceless aspirates". Does this phonetic feature occur in Pella curse tablet words too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91EF:FFFF:0:0:4F72:9391 ( talk) 20:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
The infobox should follow the labels that Wikipedia assigns to the classification of any language. The top node for Ancient Macedonian is Indo-European. The classification labels adopted by Wikipedia for the next level in Ancient Macedonian's ancestry is not "Greek", but Hellenic. Whether Ancient Macedonian falls under the aegis of Greek proper or is a closely related language is immaterial. The first-order branch of Indo-European to which it belongs is "Hellenic" per Wikipedia's labeling. The article then proceeds to describe the debate over Ancient Macedonia's relation to Greek, but that is immaterial to the label for the first-order branch of Indo-European to which it belongs--it's in Hellenic either way. -- Taivo ( talk) 13:49, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
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An editor recently added the following to the lead:
I removed it, because it seems redundant, especially in the lead, and because the cited source is old and is an overview of I-E, not a research publication; all the author says is "it is generally held that the evidence suggests rather an aberrant form of Greek than an independent language". That is, the author is summarizing others' positions ("it is generally held"). By the way, the direct word-for-word quotation is also inappropriate. For that matter, Lockwood was primarily a specialist in German, and published almost nothing on Greek, and nothing at all on Macedonian.
The other editor put it back. Rather than edit-war, I moved it to the Classification section, where it seems more appropriate. But I still think it's not a useful addition. What is meant by "aberrant"? What particular varieties of Greek is it close to? etc. What do others think? -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. Certainly not an "act of war". The book is of 1972 (not obsolete) and seems to summarize the author's view of previous works. Also includes the point of loans from other languages, which is not found in the rest of the article. Since 70's, I think we don't have any breakthrough regarding the pre-classic macedonian language. We have only new interpretations of the old stuff, some influenced by the post-yugoslavian nationalistic endeavours. Although Lockwood's opinion is not a θέσφατον, it doesn't do any harm to the artilce or the reader, me thinks.--
Skylax30 (
talk)
21:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it would, if we assume that WP articles are academic papers. But they aren't. This work of Lockwood is cited by at least 73 other scholarly papers [4] , and should be OK for WP. It seems that W.B. Lockwood has authored several text-books for linguistics for the general public, with no bibliography, and this is fine for an academic of his calibre. On the other hand, we know well the quality of sources like (Macedo-bulgarian) Eugene Borza, co-worker with Palagia in that failed attempt (full of bibliography) to claim that in the royal tomb of Vergina is not Philip II but Philip III. Fortunately for archaeology, they are not the only scientists around and the case is closed.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian language is much more similar to Ancient Greek than Latin or any other ancient language is to Ancient Greek. They might not have been been two dialects of the same language but then again there is no precise criterion for distinguishing bewteen language and dialect. The most similar Indo-European languages to the Slavic languages are the Baltic languages. Let's image that nowadays there exists only 1 Slavic language (for instance Russian) and no Baltic language anymore. In such a case the Russian nation is the sole descendant not only of all the other Slavic nations but also of the Baltic nations. This means that in a potential conflict between Russians and Germans or Finno-Ugrics (Finns/Estonians) for the territories of the former Baltic nations Russians are the only ones with historical rights to own and inhabit them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:54DB ( talk) 02:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Greek dialect, of the Northwestern group —->> [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.70.172.119 ( talk) 14:27, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
References
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@ TaivoLinguist and Future Perfect at Sunrise: I am curious on your opinions on whether we should include the recent view of Claude Brixhe (2018) here [ [5]]. He seems to suggest that the Koine of Macedonia seems to suggest a Doric substrate (page 1863), while also thinking there may have been (at least) two divergent Hellenic language varieties in the area (1864). I'm definitely less versed in Hellenic linguistics than you guys, so I figured I'd check before adding something. Cheers! -- Calthinus ( talk) 15:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a present-day language closely related to Modern Greek. It's called Tsakonian. Even though it's no longer mutually intelligible with Greek it's still Greek, meaning it's a different variation of Modern Greek. According to the logic some of you employ to (attempt to) prove that ancient Macedonian was a different language from ancient Greek, Tsakonian and (standard) Modern Greek both descend from a common non-Greek proto-language when in fact Tsakonian is derived from a previous stage of the Greek language, it's a former Greek dialect turned language (similar to Afrikaans vs. Dutch). There is no shred of evidence to prove that ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek had been in the same relationship as proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic (or as the modern Baltic languages and the modern Slavic ones) whereas the there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that ancient Macedonian was an ancient Greek dialect or dialect turned language. The fact that ancient Macedonian was only written using Greek alphabet, it's similarities to other ancient Greek dialects and the existence of Tsakonian as a second Modern Greek language all point to the fact that ancient Macedonian was indeed Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:93FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:416D ( talk) 06:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
You are wrong. Tsakonian is derived from Greek, just like Afrikaans is derived from Dutch. Tsakonian is a Greek language. For your information there are 2 Norwegian languages, 2 standards, 2 codified Norwegian languages (nynorsk and bokmal. If there are 2 different Nowegian languages who are you to say that Tsakonian isn't the 2nd Modern Greek language? There are 2 Modern Greek languages and there were 2 Ancient Greek languages in ancient times: Macedonian Greek and the other ancient Greek dialects. The fact that Nynorsk and Bokmal are mutually intelligible whereas Tsakonian and regular Modern Greek are not is irrelevant. Both Norwegian languages are mutually intelligible with Danish and that doesn't make Danish a Norwegian dialect, nor vice versa. Moreover mutual intelligibility is no criterion for distinguishing languages from dialects. There are many German or Italian dialects who are not mutually intelligible with standard German/Italian and/or other dialects of the respective languages. That doesn't make them separate languages. Stop reverting my changes in the main article on Ancient Macedonian language. You have no argument for a truly scientific debate. There is no shred of evidence that the relationship between ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek was of the Baltic-Slavic type even though you keep pushing this idea citing the Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev and few other marginals. For your information Bulgarian historians and linguists have always claimed that Greek Macedonia should be part of Bulgaria. This means Georgiev was biased against Greece. You claim, per Georgiev, that ancient Macedonian has never been Greek, that it hadn't derived from an early form of ancient Greek (meaning Archaic Greek) just like ancient common Baltic (with modern descendants Latvian and Lithuanian) has never been Slavic and ancient common Slavic (with modern descendants Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Slovene, Bulgarian and so on) has never been Baltic. The fact that modern Baltic languages are most similar with modern Slavic languages out of all the other Indo-European languages is indeed no proof that the common Baltic language has ever a dialect of common Slavic. Their similarity is due to geographical vicinity. However that is not the case with ancient Macedonian. The fact that ancient Macedonians conquered the (other) Greeks and despite being the conquerors ended up renouncing their ancient Macedonian 'language' in favor of Greek (koine Greek), which was the language of the conquered ones is an argument that they considered Ancient Macedonian as a divergent dialect of Ancient Greek and wanted to speak just like the other Greeks, in order to make themselves understood more easily by them. Again: there is no evidence whatsoever to prove that ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek had been in the same relationship as proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic, whereas the there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that ancient Macedonian was an ancient Greek dialect or dialect turned language. Besides the aforementioned voluntary, self-imposed relinquishing of their own 'language' on the part of ancient Macedonians in favor of Greek there are other proofs too: the fact that ancient Macedonian was only written using Greek alphabet and the existence of Tsakonian as a second Modern Greek language all point to the fact that ancient Macedonian was indeed Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:92FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:6B36 ( talk) 20:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
There are 2 Norwegian languages. Both are totally mutually intelligible with Danish and nearly totally mutually intelligible with Swedish. According to your logic either Danish is a Norwegian dialect (regardless of whether a Nynorsk or Bokmal dialect) or vice versa. Mutual intelligibility is no criterion for distinguishing between languages and dialects. If that were the case Slovak would be considered a Czech dialect, Belarusian a Ukrainian dialect and so on. You seem to fail to understand that there can be 2 or more different languages for the same ethnicity. Not only are there 2 different Norwegian languages, there are also 2 different Sorbian ones (Upper and Lower Sorbian). There are also 2-3 distinct French languages: standard French and Occitan (and also Franco-Provencal also known as Arpitan). Even though there is an Occitan language there is no Occitan ethnicity or nation. Also the fact that there are some historical sources which seem to suggest that Ancient Macedonian didn't consider themselves to be Greeks is totally irrelevant. Not only are there historical sources to the opposite but also there are analogue situations that can function as counter-arguments to the claim that ancient Macedonians were no Greeks: Austrians and Luxembourg people don't consider themselves to be Germans nowadays but they did so in the past. Dutch people nowadays don't consider themselves to be German even though they did so in the past. The English word 'Dutch' itself comes from the Dutch word Duits that only means German nowadays (corresponding to the German Deutsche). In English language 'Pennsylvania Dutch' and 'Pennsylvania German(s)' can be used interchangeably. Afrikaaners don't consider themselves to be Dutch anymore but they did so in the past. Also explain to me why my comparison with the Balto-Slavic languages is not correct. Ancient Macedonians were Greeks who spoke a diverging Greek dialect. Even though they conquered the other Greeks they ended up speaking Greek and abandoning their 'Ancient Macedonian language' in favor of koine Greek. That is the only explanation why they were not able to impose their so-called language unto the defeated and conquered Greeks and actually allowed their defeated 'enemies' to impose their language unto them. There is no other instance of a conquering nation ending up losing its own language in favor of the conquered nation's language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:94FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:4084 ( talk) 01:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
off-topic rants and personal attacks by IP
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This guy claims to be a linguist but has never heard of the 2 Norwegian/Sorbian/French languages. Also Belarusian means White Russian. There are 2 Russian lanugages: Russian and Byelorussian/Belarusian. Also he claims I don't understand the meaning of the word 'Greek' but he is promoting the stupid theory that both Ancient Macedonian and Ancient Greek were derived from a common proto-language (that would be for Ancient Greek and 'Ancient Macedonian' what the common Balto-Slavic proto-language was for both common Slavic and common Baltic) that he (and the other authors of this wikipage who agree with him) calls 'Hellenic', when it is a known fact that 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' mean the same thing in English. Ethnic Greeks tend to avoid using the word 'Greek' when speaking/writing in English and only use 'Hellenic'. Other people only use 'Greek'. According to them the Indo-European language 'Hellenic' split into Greek (sic) and Ancient Macedonian. Also according to them Ancient Macedonian was not Greek, therefore was not Hellenic either!!! Proto-Balto-Slavic (or common Balto-Slavic) language is a language from which both Proto-Slavic and Proto-Baltic were derived. Unlike other Indo-European languages (Proto-Germanic/Common Germanic, Proto-Celtic/Common Celtic and so on) Proto-Slavic and Proto-Baltic continued to be dialects of the same language and they only became stand-alone languages much after the of 'birth' of Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:92FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:7304 ( talk) 15:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC) As for the vocabulary: wikipedia says Proto-Germanic is a synonym for Common Germanic: 'Proto-Germanic (abbreviated PGmc; also called Common Germanic) is the reconstructed proto-language of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages.' Also Proto-Celtic is a synonym for Common Celtic: 'The Proto-Celtic language, also called Common Celtic, is the partially reconstructed proto-language of all the known Celtic languages.' Therefore the terms used by me Common Baltic, Common Slavic and Common Balto-Slavic are correct and they mean Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic and Proto-Balto-Slavic. As for Common Slavic not being a synonym for Proto-Slavic this is debatable: some use 'Common Slavic' as a synonym for 'Proto-Slavic' and subdivide it into Early and Late Common/Proto Slavic. Others use Proto-Slavic for 'Early Common Slavic' and 'Common Slavic' for 'Late Common Slavic'. Therefore my usage of Common Slavic as a synonym for Proto-Slavic is not incorrect. This is what wikipedia page for Proto-Slavic says: 'Proto-Slavic is the unattested, reconstructed proto-language of all the Slavic languages. It represents Slavic speech approximately from the 2nd millennium B.C. through the 6th century A.D.[1] [...] Rapid development of Slavic speech occurred during the Proto-Slavic period, coinciding with the massive expansion of the Slavic-speaking area. Dialectal differentiation occurred early on during this period, but overall linguistic unity and mutual intelligibility continued for several centuries, into the 10th century or later. [...] This makes it inconvenient to maintain the traditional definition of a proto-language as the latest reconstructable common ancestor of a language group, with no dialectal differentiation. [...] Instead, Slavicists typically handle the entire period of dialectally-differentiated linguistic unity as Common Slavic.' [...] 'There is no scholarly consensus concerning either the number of stages involved in the development of the language (its periodization) or the terms used to describe them.' Seems that Taivo is an Estonian name. Given that Estonian is related to Finnish, I suppose it could be a Finnish name too, although I'm not sure. If he/she indeed is an ethnical Estonian (born and educated in Estonia) and a linguist I'm afraid he/she is making Estonian teachers/professors and Estonians in general ashamed of themselves. He supposedly is a linguist but has never heard of the existence of 2 standalone language bearing the same name: Sorbian (Upper and Lower), Norwegian (Bokmal and Nynorsk) and so on. BTW the name 'Sorbian' is etymologically related to Serbian, meaning there are actually 3 Sorbian languages. Also the names Russian, Belarusian and Rusyn are all etymologically related. Rusyn is a minor Slavic language. There is no country with Rusyn as national/official language. Belarusian/Byelorussian/Belorussian means White Russian. In German language Belarus is called 'Weissrussland' which translates to White Russia. 'Russland' is Russia and 'weiss' is white. 'Weissrussisch' (Belarusian language) translates as White Russian ('Russisch' = Russian language). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:5D44 ( talk) 23:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC) |
Why is it so important to prove that the Ancient Macedonian language was a North Greek dialect or a separate language? Wikipedia must include all possibilities (with reliable sources). Jestmoon(talk) 12:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I have made some changes to lede with the main objective of emphasizing the meagre attestation of Ancient Macedonian, and also in order to put the epigraphic situation into the right perspective. I am not very committed to the last sentence. Something like "This local variety is usually classified by scholars as a variety of North Western Ancient Greek, or occasionally as a distinct sister language of Ancient Greek" would be just as fine for me. – Austronesier ( talk) 11:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
I removed the following view:
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European
substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and M. Hatzopoulos (2011).
Sakellariou (1983) lacks WP:Verifiability, and even if this is indeed his actual view, it predates recent epigraphic discoveries such as the Pella curse tablet; thus, the guideline of WP:AGE MATTERS applies here. Furthermore, Hatzopoulos (2011) actually states the following on page 44 (which was referenced):
In the last thirty years the discovery, systematic collection and publication of a large number of inscriptions, sometimes of an early date, has made possible to study in perspective proper names and technical terms that preserve phonetic and morphological features, as well as their divergences from the norms of the koine. Very recently a couple of longer texts entirely written in the local idiom have come to light and been published . They leave no doubt that Macedonian was a Greek dialect presenting affinities partly with the dialects attested in the inscriptions of Thessaly and partly with those known from documents discovered in north-western Greece. Moreover its phonology seems to have been influenced to a limited extent by the languages of the conquered peoples, in which the distinction between voiced and unvoiced consonants tended to be blurred.
So, a more accurate summary would be something like the following:
A Greek dialect related to those of Thessaly and northwestern Greece, but with its phonology having been "influenced to a limited extent by the languages of the conquered peoples"; suggested by Hatzopoulos (2011).
[1]
However, Hatzopoulos (2020) – which is a more recent publication – is also cited among the scholars who support the Northwest Doric classification, and on page 77 he mentions the following:
His [Brixhe's] present views, to most of which I gladly adhere, are the following: the conquering Argead Macedonians, who spoke a North-Western Greek dialect, upon their descent from Mount Pindos down to the plains, met Achaean Greeks intermingled with non-Greek speakers.
[2]
I believe the above statement corresponds better to the "Northwest Doric" classification than to an independent one; despite the seeming implication of a substrate (Achaean Greek and non-Greek). But if anyone disagrees, it can be reinstated and rephrased per the aforementioned proposed summary.
References
Demetrios1993 ( talk) 02:29, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
The whole article is not corresponding with the references. It's like living in parallel reality. The majority of references saying that was either a language related with Illyrian or Thracian, or with Doric and Aeolic. All sources saying that Macedonian were barbaric people (which actually means foreign speaking) and they spoke a language that was unintelligible to Greeks. I would like to change the first paragraph that is more objective
Ancient Macedonian, was the language of the ancient Macedonians. There is a debate within the scientific community about the origin of ancient Macedonian language and distinction should be made between the era before Alexander the Great and after, and also between the language that was used in every day life and the language that was used in administration. Regarding the language spoken in everyday life, before Alexander the Great, there are different opinions raging from a barbarian language that was more closely related to Thracian and Illyrian, to an Aeolic or Dorian Greek dialect. After the conquests of Alexander the Great, Attic Greek was adopted and Macedonian gradually fell out. Regarding the language used in court, Perdiccas II of Macedon(r. c. 448 BC to c. 413 BC) made Attic Greek the language used for administration purposes that later became the basis of Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the Hellenistic period. HelenHIL ( talk) 11:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
the majority of references saying that was either a language related with Illyrian or Thracian, or with Doric and Aeolicboils down to some sources mentioning that there are different theories, and
All sources saying that [...] they spoke a language that was unintelligible to Greekturns out to be not only inaccurate, but completely false. How about learning how wiki works before wasting everybody's time? -- T*U ( talk) 14:49, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
@ HelenHIL: The article is fine. The references you tried to include ( diff) were actually removed on 10 May 2021 by User:Kwamikagami ( diff1, diff2, diff3); per WP:OLDSOURCES. Furthermore, Sakellariou (1983) was removed some weeks ago due to lack of WP:Verifiability, and even if it was an accurate summary of his view, it would fall under WP:OLDSOURCES as well; as explained in the previous thread. In the past, there were indeed a number of hypotheses regarding the classification of Ancient Macedonian, but nowadays, it is viewed either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, or a distinct sister language of Greek. Furthermore, we also have to adhere to WP:UNDUE, since most of the modern scholars who are cited, support the former view. Last, just because you initiated an SPI, it doesn't give you the right to go around different articles and cast the allegation that i am a sockpuppet; the CU will prove that i have nothing to do with Khirurg. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:15, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
An anon IP is edit warring over whether Ancient Macedonian was "Hellenic (?)" or "Doric (with no question)". The scholarly literature seems pretty clear and doesn't appear to have changed since the last time we argued this. Unless the anon IP who is edit warring has a more up-to-date reference, the text should remain what the consensus has been for the last several years. -- Taivo ( talk) 14:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Although the Macedonians claimed to be Doric during the reign of Philip, their language is closer related to Ionian. Rancid Boar ( talk) 01:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Khirurg Take a look into this article: Paleo-Balkanic languages. And where is it discussed that Ancient Macedonian has been influenced by Illyrian and Thracian "anyways"? AlexBachmann ( talk) 23:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Most of the vocabulary seems to be regular Greek, but other words show separate, non-Greek roots and are borrowed from common Indo-European roots, or from Thracian and Illyrian. In other words, something completely different from what you are claiming. A few borrowings is not "influence", all languages borrow from neighboring languages. Btw, ctrl+F searches on google witg "Macedonian influenced by Illyrian" is not how to build a neutral encyclopedia, but rather a textbook case of POV editing. Khirurg ( talk) 02:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed and discussed recently by Kalleris 1954,1976(0 54) and Hammond and Griffith 1979(0 50)43—54, both contending that it was a dialect of Greek, a view now opposed by Badian 1982(0 12). The increasing volume of surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy, but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There is no evidence for a different 'Macedonian' language that cannot be as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.Which is very much at odds with the text that is claimed to be supported by this source in these edits [6] [7]. – Austronesier ( talk) 21:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Just saw this [8] outrageously distorting edit.
For the record: The LinguistList tree shows a structure that looks like this [9]:
Hellenic |_ Greek |_ Macedonian
further expanded to:
Hellenic |_ Greek |_ Greek, Ancient |_ Mycenean Greek |_ Attic |_ Doric |_ Macedonian |_ Ancient Macedonian
So, the only correct way to describe this is indeed: "Hellenic" as a subfamily uniting Macedonian and "Greek proper". "Macedonian and the other Greek dialects" is a patent falsification of what this tree means.
The same is true for the wording of the B. Joseph quote that's referenced in the same context: "Macedonian and Greek would be the two subbranches of a group within Indo-European which could more properly be called Hellenic." [10] The sole point of this statement is to describe a model where XMK was not "another Greek dialect". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
What's the difference between Hellenic and Greek??? They mean the same thing. Greek Macedon ( talk) 16:04, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
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Am I correct in believing that the Hesychius Glosses contained rare words that Hesychius considered dialectic? With regard to the more detailed material in the Talk section, the treatment in the article is rather cursory. The so-called Properties might give the impression of there being special features, especially with some morphology noted by Panayotou being contrasted with 'standard Greek', the definition of which is uncertain, since some of the Macedonian forms (which were not unique or even uncommon) became standard (e.g. the first declension noun grammar and the loss of 'sth' aspiration), or were the standard (e.g. syncope). The proposed 'occasional' examples of voiced aspirates (if that is what they were, which Babiniotis doubts) pronounced as voiced stops are not unique to ancient Macedonian. In any case, of the properties given, none seems exclusive to ancient Macedonian. Ancient Macedonian could be more usefully compared to ancient Epirotan or Thessalian, which are neighbouring forms. Attic is obviously a standard reference but not always a useful comparison. Late Attic itself is quite unusual in its peculiar orthography following the 403BC reform and is also atypical in some of its morphology. Is ancient Macedonian truly special with some such regard, when compared to Epirotan or Thessalian? If so, any such genuine peculiarities should be included in the article. Other than the few interesting Macedonian words in the Glosses, is there something that is especially unique about ancient Macedonian, except of course for the hot air? Skamnelis ( talk) 17:02, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Please, do not revert solely due to no consensus, read WP:DRNC. Judist ( talk) 05:56, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
There are no examples of literature surviving which makes it difficult to investigate Ancient Macedonian precisely, which is also the case for the neighbouring Illyrian languages and Thracian languages. There is a disagreement among scholars as to whether Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect or a separate language.<ref>[[Jackson J. Spielvogel]].''Western Civilization: A Brief History, Volume I: To 1715''. Cengage Learning, 2013. p. 70</ref>
There is a disagreement among scholars as to whether Ancient Macedonian was a Greek dialect or a separate language.is full of weasel-type generalisations. "Disagreement" is a vague weasel word. How big is the disagreement? Who disagrees? What does the majority of the scholars think? etc.. Please do not continue to add this until there is agreement at the talkpage as to the inclusion of this material in the article and in what form. Dr. K. 18:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone know if there is a published comparative analysis of the Macedonian words in Hesychius' glossary to the ones in Pella curse tablet? Is that the same language/dialect? To me, as a non-linguist and also a person who speaks neither Ancient nor Modern Greek the language of the Pella curse tablet seems more Greek than the one in Hesychius' glossary. Some words from the latter source are said to "reveal, for example, voiced stops where Greek shows voiceless aspirates". Does this phonetic feature occur in Pella curse tablet words too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91EF:FFFF:0:0:4F72:9391 ( talk) 20:25, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
The infobox should follow the labels that Wikipedia assigns to the classification of any language. The top node for Ancient Macedonian is Indo-European. The classification labels adopted by Wikipedia for the next level in Ancient Macedonian's ancestry is not "Greek", but Hellenic. Whether Ancient Macedonian falls under the aegis of Greek proper or is a closely related language is immaterial. The first-order branch of Indo-European to which it belongs is "Hellenic" per Wikipedia's labeling. The article then proceeds to describe the debate over Ancient Macedonia's relation to Greek, but that is immaterial to the label for the first-order branch of Indo-European to which it belongs--it's in Hellenic either way. -- Taivo ( talk) 13:49, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
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An editor recently added the following to the lead:
I removed it, because it seems redundant, especially in the lead, and because the cited source is old and is an overview of I-E, not a research publication; all the author says is "it is generally held that the evidence suggests rather an aberrant form of Greek than an independent language". That is, the author is summarizing others' positions ("it is generally held"). By the way, the direct word-for-word quotation is also inappropriate. For that matter, Lockwood was primarily a specialist in German, and published almost nothing on Greek, and nothing at all on Macedonian.
The other editor put it back. Rather than edit-war, I moved it to the Classification section, where it seems more appropriate. But I still think it's not a useful addition. What is meant by "aberrant"? What particular varieties of Greek is it close to? etc. What do others think? -- Macrakis ( talk) 20:21, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. Certainly not an "act of war". The book is of 1972 (not obsolete) and seems to summarize the author's view of previous works. Also includes the point of loans from other languages, which is not found in the rest of the article. Since 70's, I think we don't have any breakthrough regarding the pre-classic macedonian language. We have only new interpretations of the old stuff, some influenced by the post-yugoslavian nationalistic endeavours. Although Lockwood's opinion is not a θέσφατον, it doesn't do any harm to the artilce or the reader, me thinks.--
Skylax30 (
talk)
21:29, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, it would, if we assume that WP articles are academic papers. But they aren't. This work of Lockwood is cited by at least 73 other scholarly papers [4] , and should be OK for WP. It seems that W.B. Lockwood has authored several text-books for linguistics for the general public, with no bibliography, and this is fine for an academic of his calibre. On the other hand, we know well the quality of sources like (Macedo-bulgarian) Eugene Borza, co-worker with Palagia in that failed attempt (full of bibliography) to claim that in the royal tomb of Vergina is not Philip II but Philip III. Fortunately for archaeology, they are not the only scientists around and the case is closed.-- Skylax30 ( talk) 09:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Ancient Macedonian language is much more similar to Ancient Greek than Latin or any other ancient language is to Ancient Greek. They might not have been been two dialects of the same language but then again there is no precise criterion for distinguishing bewteen language and dialect. The most similar Indo-European languages to the Slavic languages are the Baltic languages. Let's image that nowadays there exists only 1 Slavic language (for instance Russian) and no Baltic language anymore. In such a case the Russian nation is the sole descendant not only of all the other Slavic nations but also of the Baltic nations. This means that in a potential conflict between Russians and Germans or Finno-Ugrics (Finns/Estonians) for the territories of the former Baltic nations Russians are the only ones with historical rights to own and inhabit them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:54DB ( talk) 02:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
Greek dialect, of the Northwestern group —->> [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.70.172.119 ( talk) 14:27, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
References
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@ TaivoLinguist and Future Perfect at Sunrise: I am curious on your opinions on whether we should include the recent view of Claude Brixhe (2018) here [ [5]]. He seems to suggest that the Koine of Macedonia seems to suggest a Doric substrate (page 1863), while also thinking there may have been (at least) two divergent Hellenic language varieties in the area (1864). I'm definitely less versed in Hellenic linguistics than you guys, so I figured I'd check before adding something. Cheers! -- Calthinus ( talk) 15:45, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
There is a present-day language closely related to Modern Greek. It's called Tsakonian. Even though it's no longer mutually intelligible with Greek it's still Greek, meaning it's a different variation of Modern Greek. According to the logic some of you employ to (attempt to) prove that ancient Macedonian was a different language from ancient Greek, Tsakonian and (standard) Modern Greek both descend from a common non-Greek proto-language when in fact Tsakonian is derived from a previous stage of the Greek language, it's a former Greek dialect turned language (similar to Afrikaans vs. Dutch). There is no shred of evidence to prove that ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek had been in the same relationship as proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic (or as the modern Baltic languages and the modern Slavic ones) whereas the there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that ancient Macedonian was an ancient Greek dialect or dialect turned language. The fact that ancient Macedonian was only written using Greek alphabet, it's similarities to other ancient Greek dialects and the existence of Tsakonian as a second Modern Greek language all point to the fact that ancient Macedonian was indeed Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:93FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:416D ( talk) 06:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
You are wrong. Tsakonian is derived from Greek, just like Afrikaans is derived from Dutch. Tsakonian is a Greek language. For your information there are 2 Norwegian languages, 2 standards, 2 codified Norwegian languages (nynorsk and bokmal. If there are 2 different Nowegian languages who are you to say that Tsakonian isn't the 2nd Modern Greek language? There are 2 Modern Greek languages and there were 2 Ancient Greek languages in ancient times: Macedonian Greek and the other ancient Greek dialects. The fact that Nynorsk and Bokmal are mutually intelligible whereas Tsakonian and regular Modern Greek are not is irrelevant. Both Norwegian languages are mutually intelligible with Danish and that doesn't make Danish a Norwegian dialect, nor vice versa. Moreover mutual intelligibility is no criterion for distinguishing languages from dialects. There are many German or Italian dialects who are not mutually intelligible with standard German/Italian and/or other dialects of the respective languages. That doesn't make them separate languages. Stop reverting my changes in the main article on Ancient Macedonian language. You have no argument for a truly scientific debate. There is no shred of evidence that the relationship between ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek was of the Baltic-Slavic type even though you keep pushing this idea citing the Bulgarian linguist Vladimir Georgiev and few other marginals. For your information Bulgarian historians and linguists have always claimed that Greek Macedonia should be part of Bulgaria. This means Georgiev was biased against Greece. You claim, per Georgiev, that ancient Macedonian has never been Greek, that it hadn't derived from an early form of ancient Greek (meaning Archaic Greek) just like ancient common Baltic (with modern descendants Latvian and Lithuanian) has never been Slavic and ancient common Slavic (with modern descendants Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Slovene, Bulgarian and so on) has never been Baltic. The fact that modern Baltic languages are most similar with modern Slavic languages out of all the other Indo-European languages is indeed no proof that the common Baltic language has ever a dialect of common Slavic. Their similarity is due to geographical vicinity. However that is not the case with ancient Macedonian. The fact that ancient Macedonians conquered the (other) Greeks and despite being the conquerors ended up renouncing their ancient Macedonian 'language' in favor of Greek (koine Greek), which was the language of the conquered ones is an argument that they considered Ancient Macedonian as a divergent dialect of Ancient Greek and wanted to speak just like the other Greeks, in order to make themselves understood more easily by them. Again: there is no evidence whatsoever to prove that ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek had been in the same relationship as proto-Baltic and proto-Slavic, whereas the there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that ancient Macedonian was an ancient Greek dialect or dialect turned language. Besides the aforementioned voluntary, self-imposed relinquishing of their own 'language' on the part of ancient Macedonians in favor of Greek there are other proofs too: the fact that ancient Macedonian was only written using Greek alphabet and the existence of Tsakonian as a second Modern Greek language all point to the fact that ancient Macedonian was indeed Greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:92FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:6B36 ( talk) 20:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
There are 2 Norwegian languages. Both are totally mutually intelligible with Danish and nearly totally mutually intelligible with Swedish. According to your logic either Danish is a Norwegian dialect (regardless of whether a Nynorsk or Bokmal dialect) or vice versa. Mutual intelligibility is no criterion for distinguishing between languages and dialects. If that were the case Slovak would be considered a Czech dialect, Belarusian a Ukrainian dialect and so on. You seem to fail to understand that there can be 2 or more different languages for the same ethnicity. Not only are there 2 different Norwegian languages, there are also 2 different Sorbian ones (Upper and Lower Sorbian). There are also 2-3 distinct French languages: standard French and Occitan (and also Franco-Provencal also known as Arpitan). Even though there is an Occitan language there is no Occitan ethnicity or nation. Also the fact that there are some historical sources which seem to suggest that Ancient Macedonian didn't consider themselves to be Greeks is totally irrelevant. Not only are there historical sources to the opposite but also there are analogue situations that can function as counter-arguments to the claim that ancient Macedonians were no Greeks: Austrians and Luxembourg people don't consider themselves to be Germans nowadays but they did so in the past. Dutch people nowadays don't consider themselves to be German even though they did so in the past. The English word 'Dutch' itself comes from the Dutch word Duits that only means German nowadays (corresponding to the German Deutsche). In English language 'Pennsylvania Dutch' and 'Pennsylvania German(s)' can be used interchangeably. Afrikaaners don't consider themselves to be Dutch anymore but they did so in the past. Also explain to me why my comparison with the Balto-Slavic languages is not correct. Ancient Macedonians were Greeks who spoke a diverging Greek dialect. Even though they conquered the other Greeks they ended up speaking Greek and abandoning their 'Ancient Macedonian language' in favor of koine Greek. That is the only explanation why they were not able to impose their so-called language unto the defeated and conquered Greeks and actually allowed their defeated 'enemies' to impose their language unto them. There is no other instance of a conquering nation ending up losing its own language in favor of the conquered nation's language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:94FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:4084 ( talk) 01:10, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
off-topic rants and personal attacks by IP
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This guy claims to be a linguist but has never heard of the 2 Norwegian/Sorbian/French languages. Also Belarusian means White Russian. There are 2 Russian lanugages: Russian and Byelorussian/Belarusian. Also he claims I don't understand the meaning of the word 'Greek' but he is promoting the stupid theory that both Ancient Macedonian and Ancient Greek were derived from a common proto-language (that would be for Ancient Greek and 'Ancient Macedonian' what the common Balto-Slavic proto-language was for both common Slavic and common Baltic) that he (and the other authors of this wikipage who agree with him) calls 'Hellenic', when it is a known fact that 'Hellenic' and 'Greek' mean the same thing in English. Ethnic Greeks tend to avoid using the word 'Greek' when speaking/writing in English and only use 'Hellenic'. Other people only use 'Greek'. According to them the Indo-European language 'Hellenic' split into Greek (sic) and Ancient Macedonian. Also according to them Ancient Macedonian was not Greek, therefore was not Hellenic either!!! Proto-Balto-Slavic (or common Balto-Slavic) language is a language from which both Proto-Slavic and Proto-Baltic were derived. Unlike other Indo-European languages (Proto-Germanic/Common Germanic, Proto-Celtic/Common Celtic and so on) Proto-Slavic and Proto-Baltic continued to be dialects of the same language and they only became stand-alone languages much after the of 'birth' of Proto-Germanic and Proto-Celtic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:92FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:7304 ( talk) 15:18, 17 August 2020 (UTC) As for the vocabulary: wikipedia says Proto-Germanic is a synonym for Common Germanic: 'Proto-Germanic (abbreviated PGmc; also called Common Germanic) is the reconstructed proto-language of the Germanic branch of the Indo-European languages.' Also Proto-Celtic is a synonym for Common Celtic: 'The Proto-Celtic language, also called Common Celtic, is the partially reconstructed proto-language of all the known Celtic languages.' Therefore the terms used by me Common Baltic, Common Slavic and Common Balto-Slavic are correct and they mean Proto-Baltic, Proto-Slavic and Proto-Balto-Slavic. As for Common Slavic not being a synonym for Proto-Slavic this is debatable: some use 'Common Slavic' as a synonym for 'Proto-Slavic' and subdivide it into Early and Late Common/Proto Slavic. Others use Proto-Slavic for 'Early Common Slavic' and 'Common Slavic' for 'Late Common Slavic'. Therefore my usage of Common Slavic as a synonym for Proto-Slavic is not incorrect. This is what wikipedia page for Proto-Slavic says: 'Proto-Slavic is the unattested, reconstructed proto-language of all the Slavic languages. It represents Slavic speech approximately from the 2nd millennium B.C. through the 6th century A.D.[1] [...] Rapid development of Slavic speech occurred during the Proto-Slavic period, coinciding with the massive expansion of the Slavic-speaking area. Dialectal differentiation occurred early on during this period, but overall linguistic unity and mutual intelligibility continued for several centuries, into the 10th century or later. [...] This makes it inconvenient to maintain the traditional definition of a proto-language as the latest reconstructable common ancestor of a language group, with no dialectal differentiation. [...] Instead, Slavicists typically handle the entire period of dialectally-differentiated linguistic unity as Common Slavic.' [...] 'There is no scholarly consensus concerning either the number of stages involved in the development of the language (its periodization) or the terms used to describe them.' Seems that Taivo is an Estonian name. Given that Estonian is related to Finnish, I suppose it could be a Finnish name too, although I'm not sure. If he/she indeed is an ethnical Estonian (born and educated in Estonia) and a linguist I'm afraid he/she is making Estonian teachers/professors and Estonians in general ashamed of themselves. He supposedly is a linguist but has never heard of the existence of 2 standalone language bearing the same name: Sorbian (Upper and Lower), Norwegian (Bokmal and Nynorsk) and so on. BTW the name 'Sorbian' is etymologically related to Serbian, meaning there are actually 3 Sorbian languages. Also the names Russian, Belarusian and Rusyn are all etymologically related. Rusyn is a minor Slavic language. There is no country with Rusyn as national/official language. Belarusian/Byelorussian/Belorussian means White Russian. In German language Belarus is called 'Weissrussland' which translates to White Russia. 'Russland' is Russia and 'weiss' is white. 'Weissrussisch' (Belarusian language) translates as White Russian ('Russisch' = Russian language). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F07:91FF:FFFF:0:0:6460:5D44 ( talk) 23:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC) |
Why is it so important to prove that the Ancient Macedonian language was a North Greek dialect or a separate language? Wikipedia must include all possibilities (with reliable sources). Jestmoon(talk) 12:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
I have made some changes to lede with the main objective of emphasizing the meagre attestation of Ancient Macedonian, and also in order to put the epigraphic situation into the right perspective. I am not very committed to the last sentence. Something like "This local variety is usually classified by scholars as a variety of North Western Ancient Greek, or occasionally as a distinct sister language of Ancient Greek" would be just as fine for me. – Austronesier ( talk) 11:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
I removed the following view:
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European
substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and M. Hatzopoulos (2011).
Sakellariou (1983) lacks WP:Verifiability, and even if this is indeed his actual view, it predates recent epigraphic discoveries such as the Pella curse tablet; thus, the guideline of WP:AGE MATTERS applies here. Furthermore, Hatzopoulos (2011) actually states the following on page 44 (which was referenced):
In the last thirty years the discovery, systematic collection and publication of a large number of inscriptions, sometimes of an early date, has made possible to study in perspective proper names and technical terms that preserve phonetic and morphological features, as well as their divergences from the norms of the koine. Very recently a couple of longer texts entirely written in the local idiom have come to light and been published . They leave no doubt that Macedonian was a Greek dialect presenting affinities partly with the dialects attested in the inscriptions of Thessaly and partly with those known from documents discovered in north-western Greece. Moreover its phonology seems to have been influenced to a limited extent by the languages of the conquered peoples, in which the distinction between voiced and unvoiced consonants tended to be blurred.
So, a more accurate summary would be something like the following:
A Greek dialect related to those of Thessaly and northwestern Greece, but with its phonology having been "influenced to a limited extent by the languages of the conquered peoples"; suggested by Hatzopoulos (2011).
[1]
However, Hatzopoulos (2020) – which is a more recent publication – is also cited among the scholars who support the Northwest Doric classification, and on page 77 he mentions the following:
His [Brixhe's] present views, to most of which I gladly adhere, are the following: the conquering Argead Macedonians, who spoke a North-Western Greek dialect, upon their descent from Mount Pindos down to the plains, met Achaean Greeks intermingled with non-Greek speakers.
[2]
I believe the above statement corresponds better to the "Northwest Doric" classification than to an independent one; despite the seeming implication of a substrate (Achaean Greek and non-Greek). But if anyone disagrees, it can be reinstated and rephrased per the aforementioned proposed summary.
References
Demetrios1993 ( talk) 02:29, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
The whole article is not corresponding with the references. It's like living in parallel reality. The majority of references saying that was either a language related with Illyrian or Thracian, or with Doric and Aeolic. All sources saying that Macedonian were barbaric people (which actually means foreign speaking) and they spoke a language that was unintelligible to Greeks. I would like to change the first paragraph that is more objective
Ancient Macedonian, was the language of the ancient Macedonians. There is a debate within the scientific community about the origin of ancient Macedonian language and distinction should be made between the era before Alexander the Great and after, and also between the language that was used in every day life and the language that was used in administration. Regarding the language spoken in everyday life, before Alexander the Great, there are different opinions raging from a barbarian language that was more closely related to Thracian and Illyrian, to an Aeolic or Dorian Greek dialect. After the conquests of Alexander the Great, Attic Greek was adopted and Macedonian gradually fell out. Regarding the language used in court, Perdiccas II of Macedon(r. c. 448 BC to c. 413 BC) made Attic Greek the language used for administration purposes that later became the basis of Koine Greek, the lingua franca of the Hellenistic period. HelenHIL ( talk) 11:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
the majority of references saying that was either a language related with Illyrian or Thracian, or with Doric and Aeolicboils down to some sources mentioning that there are different theories, and
All sources saying that [...] they spoke a language that was unintelligible to Greekturns out to be not only inaccurate, but completely false. How about learning how wiki works before wasting everybody's time? -- T*U ( talk) 14:49, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
@ HelenHIL: The article is fine. The references you tried to include ( diff) were actually removed on 10 May 2021 by User:Kwamikagami ( diff1, diff2, diff3); per WP:OLDSOURCES. Furthermore, Sakellariou (1983) was removed some weeks ago due to lack of WP:Verifiability, and even if it was an accurate summary of his view, it would fall under WP:OLDSOURCES as well; as explained in the previous thread. In the past, there were indeed a number of hypotheses regarding the classification of Ancient Macedonian, but nowadays, it is viewed either as a dialect of Ancient Greek, or a distinct sister language of Greek. Furthermore, we also have to adhere to WP:UNDUE, since most of the modern scholars who are cited, support the former view. Last, just because you initiated an SPI, it doesn't give you the right to go around different articles and cast the allegation that i am a sockpuppet; the CU will prove that i have nothing to do with Khirurg. Demetrios1993 ( talk) 15:15, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
An anon IP is edit warring over whether Ancient Macedonian was "Hellenic (?)" or "Doric (with no question)". The scholarly literature seems pretty clear and doesn't appear to have changed since the last time we argued this. Unless the anon IP who is edit warring has a more up-to-date reference, the text should remain what the consensus has been for the last several years. -- Taivo ( talk) 14:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Although the Macedonians claimed to be Doric during the reign of Philip, their language is closer related to Ionian. Rancid Boar ( talk) 01:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
@ Khirurg Take a look into this article: Paleo-Balkanic languages. And where is it discussed that Ancient Macedonian has been influenced by Illyrian and Thracian "anyways"? AlexBachmann ( talk) 23:30, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Most of the vocabulary seems to be regular Greek, but other words show separate, non-Greek roots and are borrowed from common Indo-European roots, or from Thracian and Illyrian. In other words, something completely different from what you are claiming. A few borrowings is not "influence", all languages borrow from neighboring languages. Btw, ctrl+F searches on google witg "Macedonian influenced by Illyrian" is not how to build a neutral encyclopedia, but rather a textbook case of POV editing. Khirurg ( talk) 02:26, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
The evidence for the language of the Macedonians has been reviewed and discussed recently by Kalleris 1954,1976(0 54) and Hammond and Griffith 1979(0 50)43—54, both contending that it was a dialect of Greek, a view now opposed by Badian 1982(0 12). The increasing volume of surviving public and private inscriptions makes it quite clear that there was no written language but Greek. There may be room for argument over spoken forms, or at least over local survivals of earlier occupancy, but it is hard to imagine what kind of authority might sustain that. There is no evidence for a different 'Macedonian' language that cannot be as easily explained in terms of dialect or accent.Which is very much at odds with the text that is claimed to be supported by this source in these edits [6] [7]. – Austronesier ( talk) 21:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Just saw this [8] outrageously distorting edit.
For the record: The LinguistList tree shows a structure that looks like this [9]:
Hellenic |_ Greek |_ Macedonian
further expanded to:
Hellenic |_ Greek |_ Greek, Ancient |_ Mycenean Greek |_ Attic |_ Doric |_ Macedonian |_ Ancient Macedonian
So, the only correct way to describe this is indeed: "Hellenic" as a subfamily uniting Macedonian and "Greek proper". "Macedonian and the other Greek dialects" is a patent falsification of what this tree means.
The same is true for the wording of the B. Joseph quote that's referenced in the same context: "Macedonian and Greek would be the two subbranches of a group within Indo-European which could more properly be called Hellenic." [10] The sole point of this statement is to describe a model where XMK was not "another Greek dialect". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
What's the difference between Hellenic and Greek??? They mean the same thing. Greek Macedon ( talk) 16:04, 8 June 2016 (UTC)