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Hey...Um, sorry about that. I accidentally deleted parts of the article after trying to access source code for another program...ASCII can be annoying. Anyway, it won't happen again. Cheers!
I think we need a better intro to this page. I don't know much about anatta, but that is after reading the intro. I just doesn't seem very elucidating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thenavigator1 ( talk • contribs) 00:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
Are you incapable of admitting the namo-rupic self of the 5-khandhas? This person so-and-so (“Bob, Sue, John”) which is “composed of the 5 khandhas”-SN 3, is “anicca, dukkha, anatta”. The empirical self is not in question, not by myself, nor any nihilist, nor Atheist, or otherwise. Said self of flesh and blood is fated to the grave “all which is born must pass”- Gotama Digha. Said self is anatta, said self is a conglomeration.
Your refutation: "A Dictionary of Pali" by Margaret Cone: Attan (atta): [Sanskrit Atman], The self, the soul, as a permanent unchangeable, autonomous entity; p.70, Pali Text Society.
Buddhadatta Mahathera's Pali-English Dictionary -page 8..Atta' [attan]: SOUL
Might I point you to the Pali scholars V. Perniola and Wilhelm Geiger, both of whom defacto state the obvious, that being there are no reflexive pronouns in Pali.
Like most uneducated “Buddhists”, Random, you confuse the self with The Self. The most common passages in Buddhism are that “these aggregates (the empirical namo rupic self) are AN-ATTA (not-Self, or, if you desire, not-mySelf). “Whenever we deny something unreal, is it in reference to something real”[Br. Sutra III.2.22].
One can only conclude that you entirely blinded your illogical position as pertains secular Buddhism. Certainly so you make no doctrinal citations nor logic to support your claims.
Like most Theravadins, you want a double standard; wanting anatta to mean “no Soul”, but where Atta’ is called the “only refuge”, the “light within”, you want atta’ in said instances to merely mean oneself, a reflexive.
Gotama himself would be the Supreme Fool without equal to BOTH state that the empirical self is "anicca, dukkha, anatta" and also claim "oneself" is also the "only refuge"-Dn 2.154, and the "light within", as well as the "Charioteer"-J-1441.
Its often seen that you, without substantiation, claim myself not to be a Pali scholar; however this, like your other claims, are merely countless baseless conjectures. I have been reading and translating Pali for longer than you have set foot upon this Earth. Unless you back up your future claims with scriptural citations, you cannot be taken seriously in the least.
The unending Strawman fallacies you commit in claiming that scriptural citations presented are either: A: mere POV, or B: "bad translations" is a very commmon sophistic ploy to divulge yourself of any responsibility in intelligently responding. Its profane and base at best.
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
Are you forgetting: Dhammapada Att. 3.407 “’Sabbe dharmas are the five aggregates in meaning”. Your refuted.
“The light (joti) within one’s mind/will (citta) is the very Soul (attano)” [DN2-Att. 2.479]
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168] "Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind (suppatitthitacitto)”
[SN 1.26] Those followers absorbed, their minds (citta) flawless having assimilated the Soul; a charioteer (Soul) in control of the reigns, sages like them guard this supranormal-power!
[AN 2.6] "Him who is Lord of the mind (citta) possessed with supernormal faculties and quelled, that One is called 'fixed-in-the-Soul' (thitattoti)"
[AN 1.196] "With mind (citta) emancipated from ignorance…this designates the Soul is having become-Brahman."
2. Nowhere is there such a tradition as ‘Hinduism’ or ‘Brahmanism’ which are terms coined by Occidental scholars. The claim than the Buddha was ‘anti-Hindu’ or ‘anti-Brahman’ is unproven.
3. Buddha’s unconditioned Attâ (soul) had nothing to do with the five khandhas schema which are conditioned and mere attributes. Nowhere in any five khandha scheme is Attâ refuted. What is refuted is that the five khandhas are the Attâ (soul).
4. The lexical rule that Attâ is to be used strictly in a pronominal fashion, or simply should be used as a signifier for the finite body, is unwarranted.
5. The Buddha never considered Attâ to be (wrong view).
6. If the Buddha disbelieved in an Attâ (soul) why did he not deny the Attâ unambiguously?
7. Why didn’t the Buddha identify the Attâ (soul) with the physical body?
8. Why is the Attâ (soul), in the Atthakatha (commentaries) squarely equated with the Tathagata which is considered to be transcendent?
9. Why is there no strict philosophical treatment of the Attâ in Occidental literature? It seems odd that an historic study and not a philosophic study is the preferred treatment of the Attâ/anattâ dispute by Western scholars.
10. Modern Buddhist commentators are certainly wrong when they assert that a work bears a certain meaning which it does not seem to possess in a particular context. This is to say, being more precise, modern Buddhist commentators are off the mark when their interpretation does not close down certain textual ambiguities and contradictions.
11. By denying outright the soul, by default, the Theravadins and modern Buddhists imply that the five aggregates are ultimate. This of course is absurd. They have merely shifted Buddhism to empiricism by ignoring pro-soul statements. According to them, what is real is what makes sensory knowledge possible, namely, the five aggregates which, ironically, according to the canon, are suffering being synonymous with Mara the Evil One (the Buddhist devil)!
12. It begs the question to assume that the no-soul doctrine had been established at the beginning of the Buddha’s ministry and that Attâ (soul) was, in every respect, an abhorrent term. Still, for such a supposedly abhorrent term, there are countless positive instances of Attâ used throughout the Nikayas, especially used in compounds which are easily glossed over by a prejudicial translator. In meeting these instances, not surprisingly, these same prejudicial translators have erected a theory that Attâ is a reflexive pronoun. This is rather hard to prove since Pali has no reflexive pronouns.
13. Much later, the Theravadins were compelled to invent a two truth theory. With the numerous instances of Attâ (soul) being found in the canon, without any pejorative implications, they fabricated the Abhidhamma taxonomy which they claim was first delivered in heavens by the Buddha to the gods who could better understand a no-soul theory than mere humans!
14. In the Nikayas, hetrodox uses of soul are noted, which are called ‘attânudittha’. One main hetrodox use of soul is in the idea of Eternalism in which the soul is regarded in a physical sense which lives in perpetuity like the cosmos.
15. What is sometimes elaborated upon in the Nikayas is the heterodox uses of Attâ (soul)‹not its outright, categorical rejection.
16. That the Buddha denied the theories of Perpetualists and Annihilationism is true. But Mahavira, the Jain, denied both positions as well. But did Mahavira deny, altogether, the principle of a soul? No he did not. Neither did Gotama the Buddha.
17. The Buddha says many times that we are not to regard our Attâ (soul) as being connected with the five aggregates. - S.A. Buddhologist, Pali translator, Author of books on Buddhist Philosophy. User Attasarana
That you have no "hesitation" in calling me unqualified is not in question,…. This, however, is all you have, one claim after another, like rubber checks written on an empty bank account.
Since you cannot support your claims with either citations or logical abductive reasoning, one can only conclude your secular and Nihilistic position has left you as immobile.
Might I remind you that one cannot even be religious or spiritual and deny the Soul, only a secular Humanist, nothing more than a "Moral Atheist",… as such, any connection you claim to any spirituality (Religion) must be rejected outright.
To claim liberation (Vimutta) and deny that which obtains it is both illogical and adoctrinal at its very core. The only noun in suttana which is liberated is the citta (cittavimutta), as well as the only noun “freed of the 5-khandhas” [Nettippakarana 44] “The mind (citta) is cleansed of the five khandhas (pañcakkhandha)”, as well as the only noun = Nibbana and Buddhahood.
‘the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling’ means Nibbana”[MN2-Att. 4.68]
“The purification of one’s own mind/will (citta); this is the Doctrine of the Buddha” [DN 2.49]
“How is it that one is called a ‘Buddha’?...gnosis that the mind/will (citta) is purified (visuddham)…such is how one is deemed a ‘Buddha’.” [MN 2.144]
[MN 1.301] "What is samadhi (the culmination of the entire Aryan path) for? Samadhi, friend, is for making the mind (citta) sovereign."
[AN 1.282] “He gathers the citta inside the immortal realm”.
Citta is the only noun in Buddhist doctrine which is said to be the basis/medium for the recollection of past lives: “directs his will (citta) to the recollection of past lives” [DN 1.81].
The anatta taught in the Nikayas has merely relative value, it is not an absolute one. It does not say simply that the Soul (atta, Atman) has no reality at all, but that certain things (5 aggregates), with which the unlearned man identifies himself, are not the Soul (anatta) and that is why one should grow disgusted with them, become detached from them and be liberated. Since this kind of anatta does not negate the Soul as such, but denies Selfhood to those things that constitute the non-self (anatta), showing them thereby to be empty of any ultimate value and to be repudiated, instead of nullifying the atta’ (Soul/Atman) doctrine, it in fact compliments it.
It is of course true that the Buddha denied the existence of the mere empirical “self” in the very meaning of “my-self” (this person so-and-so, namo-rupa,an-atta), one might say in accordance the Buddha frequently speaks of this Self, or Spirit (mahapurisha), and nowhere more clearly than in the too often repeated formula 'na me so atta’, “This/these are not my Soul” (na me so atta’= anatta/anatman), excluding body (rupa) and the components of empirical consciousness (vinnana/ nama), a statement to which the words of Sankhara are perculiary apposite.
Well, Stephen Hodge, after finding Nat Krause didnt know what Roman indexing in Pali was, he admitted the following on his discussion page, so your conclusion was correct:
RC: "In fact such a search yields only 603 hits -- a much less impressive total". SH: Yes, I was quite surprised myself at the initial large number of hits and realized that I had stupidly over-estimated in the manner you suggest. Anyway, as you say, it is a matter or no consequence.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: "Now, I have not seen you display any knowledge of Pali, and I find it troubling that you dismiss Attasarana's poor (or wrong) citations and bad translations". SH: I presume you mean "have ignored" or "have not dismissed" Attasarana's efforts. I might need to review all the acres of text that he and you have compiled, but since Attasarana's quotes are obviously from other sources, though occasionally modified, I have not thought it very important to comment on those. Looking through your comments, as far as I can see, your main contentions seem to be a couple of typos ("namo" for "nāma") and ("tathatta" for "tathāgata"), the admittedly bizarre explanation of sarve dhammā anattā, a misquote from the Nettipakarana, and frequent objections to his lexical translations. It is sometimes a bit difficult to sort out who is asserting what because name/date stamp are frequently missing. Anyway, the first category is not really worthy of mention. The second example does rightly deal with something that is totally incoherent. Now, just to show you that I do read Pali reasonably well, sabbe dhammā anattā must by any normal grammatical reading be understood as "all dhammas are anatta" -- sabbe: masc.pl.nom of the adj sabba, dhammā: pl.nom. of the masc. noun dhammo, and anattā: masc.pl.nom. of the adj anatta. These are combined as follows sabbe qualifies dhammā, hence "all dhammas"; with the addition of the adj anattā here, one gets what is sometimes called a nominal or equational sentence, extremely common in Sanskrit, Pali (and Latin, Greek etc), where A = B. Also something not often mentioned is the word order: In Sanskrit -- and similarly in Pali, I believe -- the logical subject often follows the comment in nominal sentences, so probably this should actually be read as "Not self are all the dhammas" -- which is thought-provoking. I have not dealt here with your probably mistaken understanding of the import of that sentence -- some other time perhaps, Next, there is the misquote from the Nettipakarana. You are, of course, quite right, Attasarana cannot have read the entire passage.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
SH: No major disagreements so far. It is your third category of criticisms that is open to question -- the translation of individual lexical units. Here I shall first let you into a little secret. The majority of people who translate pre-modern/religious texts start out with a theory of meaning. They have consciously or unconsciously decided in advance what the text ought to say, especially if they are members of the same faith body that reveres the texts they are translating. This in the case of Pali texts, most translators, like Bhikkhu Bodhi, Maurice Walshe or Nanamoli, adopt and apply the prevailing Theravadin assumptions to their translations. You do the same thing when you speak of "atta" and say that "its normal meaning is simply as a reflexive pronoun "myself, himself, oneself", that "atta is merely "oneself"; the conventional concept of a unified person to which one can reflexively refer" or "it has grammatical function but no more". Of course, this is the nub of the matter. You have adopted the prevailing Theravadin interpretation as though it were ipso fact true. The use of any translations done on this basis are actually not NPOV. You have not established that "atta" when used in apparently affirmative contexts (those contexts which talk of a real self that contrasts to the fake self denied by the anatta methodology) is merely a reflexive pronoun. What you are actually saying is that the prevailing Theravadin interpretation is such and such. Thus you assume your preferred translation of the famous "make atta an island/lamp" etc must be correct, while it can very naturally, logically and grammatically be translated as "make the [real] self an island/lamp". Speaking on this vary same passage, Alex Wayman says, "We can hardly imagine ātman being put on a par with the Dharma if ātman means the self of delusion." (The Sravakabhumi Manuscript, Univ of California Press, 1961; p167). GHe is not the only scholar to advance that view. If you want many dozens of more example where atta cannot logically be dismissed as a mere pronoun, I suggest you look at J Perez-Remon's Self and Non-Self in Early Buddhism (Mouton 1980). -- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: Formally, Attasarana's contributions are not less of a disaster. SH: I think I have already made my position on these quite clear by now.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: You accept Attasarana's claims of his own scholarship at face value. SH: No, I don't actually. This whole discussion began when somebody vandalized his contribution with scant discussion or negotiation. I deplore this kind of behaviour. What was needed was for somebody to edit the article properly, not to trash it. That is the principle I was and am defending.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: It is curious that you demand credentials from me, but none from Attasarana; you condemn me for using an internet handle, but this doesn't bother you about Attasarana. SH: Attasarana, for better or worse, gives his website address. You and Yoji made frequent reference to this website to attack Attasarana -- as well as Dr Page's own site to attack him. Given that, are not the pair of you a trifle cowardly in not providing any tangible information whatsoever about yourselves anywhere ? All that Google shows up are your contributions to Wikipedia and a few other inconsequential items. Yoji Hajime cannot be googled because I don't know the kanji for his name.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: [snip] opening myself up to hate mail, the entire spectrum of internet harassment, and other forms of attacks. SH: I wonder why ? I've never had that problem -- I just get mountains of spam.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest this page now be archived. It has grown extremely long and as all heated discussion seems to have come to an end or parinibbuta'ed, would it not be constructive to draw a line under this phase of the Anatta Talk in readiness for the next as and when it may arise ? Interested parties will still be able to access this page for their edification and amusement -- Stephen Hodge 22:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
In essence, what you have stated as fact, is that the nihilists have run out of conjecture, opinions, secular dogma, complete lack of doctrinal claim substantiation, and khandha-praising humanism. This of course is a logical conclusion, and of certainly true. - User Attasarana.
I had the opportunity to check the references cited by Attasarana from Studies in the Origins of Buddhism by G. C. Pande. I find it somewhat worrisome that none of the quotations he has given are actually verbatim from the book, although, apart from the dates given, they are generally similar. I'm not sure what conclusion to take from this in terms of evaluating Attasarana's conclusions and his other citations. Below, I compare the quotations as he gave them on this talk page with equivalent passage in Pande's book.
Attasarana: "It follows that only the Nikayas go back to a period which predate the formation of Buddhist sects, which is important in discerning doctrinal matters" (pg. 12)
Pande: "It follows that the scriptures, which are mostly the Nikayas, go back to a period whent he sects were, in important doctrinal matters at least, as yet one." (pg. 12)
Attasarana: Only the Nikayas thusly, reflect the first and earliest period of the history of Buddhist thought when the Sangha was in doctrine at one." (pg. 13)
Pande: "The Nikayas, thus, appear to reflect the first and earliest period of the history of Buddhist thought when the Sangha was, in appearance at least, doctrinally one." (pg. 13)
Attasarana: “The vast majority of the Nikayas appear to have existed in record no later then 460 B.C." (pg. 14)
Pande: "The major portion of the Nikayas, thus, appears to have certainly existed in the 4th cent. B.C." (pg. 15)
I also checked the following quotations from Attasaran's preferred version of Nikaya Buddhism:
Attasarana: Also it is of great note that from the standpoint of doctrinal evolution, that the stage of thought as reflected in sectarian controversies is much later that the formation and recording of the Nikayas." (pg. 13)
Pande: "Also, it should be noted that from the standpoint of doctinal evolution, the stage of thought reflected in sectarian controversies is latger than that common in the Nikayas." (pg. 13)
Attasarana: "An examination of the Sanchi inscriptions [one of Buddha’s stupas], show that some time before the early 4rd century B.C. there was already a well established collection of Buddhist sermons of the Nikayas ." (pg. 14)
Pande: "An examination of the Bharhut and Sanchi inscriptions shows that 'some time before the second century B.C. there was already a collection of Buddhist texts, which was called the "Pitakas", and was divided into five "Nikayas"...'" (pg. 15; contains a quote from Maurice Winternitz)
Attasarana: "Since only the Nikayas make no note of the massive schisms within the Buddhist Sangha, this is further evidence that it is only the Nikayas themselves that predate all sectarian divisions within the Buddhist Sangha." (pg. 16)
Pande: "The fact that the Nikayas take but slight notice of the issues contested by the earliest sects certainly suggests that they had practically reached completion in the 1st century A.B. [After Buddha]" (pg. 16)
— Nat Krause( Talk!) 23:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Stephen Hodge, with all respect, youve flipped your bean in not stating the obvious (incapacity to see the forest for the trees it seems). Foremostly, the Abhidhamma is an ENTIRELY diff. variety of Pali. Those who can read Pali will tell you this fact. Its as far apart as Gheto English and ancient Scottish English,...even someone who cannot read Pali, can even see the diff.
Second, the Katthavatthu, the 1st book of the profane Abhidhamma beings with a heated debate between two sects of "buddhism" regarding gotamas position on the Atman. Buddhaghosa and his Sarvastivada (Theravada ancestors) henchmen use and continue to use the Abhidhamma ("Highest-Dhamma") to surplant the Nikayas. Even demons Pali tranlators such as Bhikkhu Bodhi admit outright many 100s of points of doctrine in the Nikayas that "contradict" the Abhidhamma position, namely SN 4.400, for instance, where Antarabhava (in-between existence [after death, but before reincarnation]) is mentioned, and of which Bhikkhu Bodhi admits to in the Nikayas and states in his Samyutta translation footnotes "this contradicts the position of Theravada orthodoxy".
The Abhidhamma is entirely like the Book of Mormon, a "new improved doctrine" used by later-day sects to surplant the original doctrine. For Theravada, if it doesnt pass thru the "Abhidhamma-filter" of dogmatic Nihilism, it just doesnt exist.
The demon-Theravada position of a "Tipitaka" is a lie propogated for so long and so often, the common dolt hasnt a clue that this is nothing more than a religious joke nearly 1700 years in the making. The "Pali Canon" doesnt exist except in the dogma of several schools of Buddhism anymore than Jesus taught the "book or Mormon" written by Joseph Smith in 1800's America. - User Attasarna.
I would also like to make a suggestion regarding this Anatta article. Whether they like it or not, all editors must comply with the Wiki concepts of NPOV, which involves, among other things, presenting objectively, and in a non-disparaging manner, explanations or views they strongly disagree with as individuals, as well as their own favoured positions. Accurate citations and references are also a sine qua non. Providing these principles are adhered to, then the two (or possibly three) positions that have been the focus of considerable acrimony reecently will be fairly represented. It is up to the Wiki user to make up his/her/its mind which, if any, is the most likely and coherent account.
To this end, I suggest interested parties look at the revised Hinayana article sandbox and the related discussion at Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox. I think something along those lines should be implemented in the case of "anatta/atman" and the related "atta/atman" articles. A more satisfactory, and hopefully better, result is likely through cooperation rather than through vituperation. Any takers ?-- Stephen Hodge 23:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It is deeply disappointing to see such personal bickering between buddhists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.197.8.55 ( talk • contribs) .
As a reader interested in clarifying certain Buddhist concepts, I am disappointed with this article. In style it seems to me to be more argumentive than informative. But interestingly the form of its presentation reveals the flaw of its content.
Is not the author's insistence on demonstrating his version of a "Buddhist soul theory" use precisely the approach that the Buddha himself was negating? Specifically, using verbal arguments in an attempt to conceptualize what is ineffable? Does this not create greater ignorance by perpetuating a mental state that spawns meaningless generic propositions to be defended? Wouldn't mainstream Buddhists agree that futile arguments regarding the concept of soul are beside the point? Wouldn't they say our most important task would be an exhaustive personal examination of why as individuals we would need to advance such arguments in the first place?
It is said that the Buddha likened the mind that poses such questions to a man who when fatally wounded by an arrow insisted on knowing, before the arrow was removed, the name of the man that shot the arrow, how old he was, what tribe he was from, whether he was facing into or away from the sun, if seasoned wood was used to construct the arrow, whether that wood came from bark or senew, what season the wood was cut, on whose land the tree resided ...
Does not the author's insistence of using what he describes as interpretations based on original texts and rejection of later refinements and clarifications accepted by mainstream Buddhist thinkers such as the Dalai Lama remind one of the unbending religious fundamentalism that has become so prevalent as of late?
In my opinion, if the reader wants an intuitive realization of what constitutes clinging, whether it be what the author considers to be a soul or for that matter any other mental construct, all he or she needs to do is to read between the lines of this article. Furthermore, this article's argumentative and non-generalistic nature makes it unsuitable encyclopedic use. Those interested in an unbiased view of what mainstream Buddhism calls anatta would be better served looking somewhere else. Nakedzx 19:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
That the article on anatta should be such an ungodly mess is hardly surprising. But what I'd like to see done here, and what I've never seen done before, is to see this whole atta/anatta argument placed in its proper context. In reality, this argument has less to do with discussing Buddhist practice and dogma than it does with imagining a supposed "origin" of Buddhism and then fighting over what that origin must be, an hypostatized origin which by its very nature is not to be found in Buddhism as it was every actually practiced at any point in its history. This phenomenon of reconstructing "origins" is itself a late 19th century phenomenon, and by extension the whole atta/anatta argument is really working with concepts which can be traced back to Victorian Orientalists and what they wanted Buddhism to be. On the one hand, we have the rationalist camp of T.W. Rhy Davids who were working from the assumption that Buddhism was the "empirical" religion which threw away things which were not directly observable like souls and supreme deities. Anything that contradicted this assumption was termed obvious degeneration of the original teaching. On the other hand, you have the Upanishadic camp, people like Mrs. Rhys Davids and Edmund Holmes, who felt that Buddhism was really little more than Upanishads version 2.0, that everything in the Nikayas had to be translated as such, and that everything that went against this was obvious degeneration of the original teaching. Scholars in both camps had their own academic, psychological, and spiritual reasons (or should I say "hang-ups") which lead them to view Buddhism as they did. It's just as Stephen Hodge said in one of the above entries:
Indeed, it is also the case with the people on the other side of this argument who wish to see an Upanishadic Self in Buddhism. So, what do you do when everyone in this argument is seeing Buddhism only as they want to see it? And need I mention neither party giving a damn what practicing Buddhists, Eastern or Western, have to say about any of it (modern practitioners are just practicing a "corruption" of the "original" teaching, remember...) ?
I repeat, this argument has precious little to do with what Buddhism ever taught in its history, and has everything to do with what Victorian Orientalists wanted Buddhism to be. And what they wanted Buddhism to be was a dogmatic system only they had complete understanding of, and only they had complete access to, because, in reality, they were the ones who constructed it in the first place.
Stephen
My apologies for not signing. I am relatively new at this.
To the extent that I understand it, I find resonance it everything you have to say.
You have an interesting bio. I have a question that can be answered or treated rhetorically as you prefer. Do you meditate? I do. What brought me to the anatta page was a Google search from which I intended to find additional perspectives on perfecting my practice. Although I do not have your background or experience I have read more than a dozen books written or translated by authors that appear to be regarded as those that reflect the popularized version of Tibetan Buddhism. They include the Dalai Lama, Robert Thurman and numerous other Tibetan scholars that have translated the work of Candrakirti, Nagarjuna and others.
Does this soul/no-soul debate advance a greater understanding of the subject in question? My primary interest was not and is not the position of all participants. It is a greater understanding of what contemporary and ancient scholars call anatta.
Any suggestions on additional sources? Nakedzx 20:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Stephen, Tony
Thanks for your excellent observations and references. They are a reminder of what makes Wikipedia potentially great. In my practice, as in life, my goal is to develop a mind that assimilates and learns without formulating unfounded conclusions. Although I do not have sufficient knowledge of Buddhism to know whether its development parallels that of Christianity it does seem to me that its approach seems fundamentally different. That is, Buddhism seems to use a logic based, revise-whatever-does-not-work approach whereas popular representations of Christianity, at least in the U.S., seem rather dogmatic in comparison. I should also say, in an attempt to ward off further polarization, that when the dogma is removed there is much of value there. But I'm not sure how that comparison relates to difficulties in meditation practice. My current focus has been the development of equanimity which I would relate to non-conclusiveness, non-judgementalism or as you said Stephen, open-mindedness. In that effort I will look for whatever is available for Tillman Vetter and Dolpopa. In the meantime, don't consider this to be my final comments. Nakedzx 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't work out what people are arguing about. What is in despute above about?-- Timtak 22:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Attasarana is determined to have this page as *his* page, rather than a collaboratively written, consensus opinion piece with a npov as is the spirit and principle of wikipedia. His childish bias is evident in such NPOV defying antics as calling Theravada teaching as 'non-doctrinal'... it's so bad it's almost funny.
Personal conjecture cannot be tolerated when discussing doctrinal terms. -- Attasarana( talk)
The article entitled 'Anatta' contains inflammatory language that reflects all too clearly the personal passions of the writer. This does not belong in an encyclopedia article and should be confined to the discussion page.
The article entitled 'Anatta' is being used as a battleground for opposing points of view. Naturally, opposing points of view may be represented in an encyclopedia article, but unnecessary vehemence should and will be toned down, while retaining any factual information that may be present.
It is my intention to make the article easier to read by:
I am not a scholar of Buddhism, nor am I able to decipher Pali.
Furthermore I am not interested in canon.
Furthermore I am not unbiased
This may mean I shouldn’t have anything to do with this.
But I think I should.
I have been a Buddhist for most of my life, and have thought about Buddhist things for most of my life.
I came across this article because I had been listening to a monk who had visited our city recently. He had mentioned the term anatta. I was familiar with the term, however I was interested in both seeing a scholarly discussion on what it meant for me, and what it meant for others. Reading this article at first disturbed me. I am familiar with the concept of anatta presented in the article. It is not the only concept however. The article seemed to me to dismiss these other concepts as perhaps being 'un-Buddhist'. Buddhism as I find it is a very fragmented religion with significant deviation in thought to dismiss any one of them as 'un-Buddhist' is not helpful. The article only addresses one of these areas of thought. And that is central. It is not that it is biased, although I think it is, it is that it does not segment that bias and recognize it as such. As in 'the X school of thought, with whom I agree, says the following on the concept of no-self".
Although I am not a scholar I am very familiar with the argument(s)/debate(s) occurring here because I have had it with myself regularly. It is a source of suffering.
There are two things I would like to contribute to it.
1) The 'problem' that occurs when we describe things as not self and inadvertently indicate self I feel arises out of the way we think. We think in terms of self, and our language is spoken in terms of self. By having to describe self we place focus on self, we place focus on the duality of self-no self, which in turn creates self. In my opinion it is the question, 'what is self?', or 'what is not self?' that is at fault, not the Buddha’s answer, nor the modern Buddhist’s answer, which, given the pre-established focus provided by the self focused nature of the question, can only ever be half complete.
In my opinion the answer to the question “what is self?” can only be given in the negative because, in our minds and language, in our conception, this is the only part of the answer that can be correct. It appears to be an incomplete answer because of the nature of the question. To be a complete answer the Buddha, or the modern Buddhist or philosopher, would need to say what the self is, to which he can only answer, again, what it is not.
and as to the opposite question that then gets posed, 'is there then no self?' we are again posed with a similar difficulty in conception and language because to answer we must say that there 'is' a 'no self'. At which point we form a concept of a thing that is the no-self and create an identification with that thing, which creates self. Which is both illogical, and opposite to what I think Buddhism is about.
2) At the end of the last sentence I wanted to say 'the goal of Buddhism’ which brings me to the next issue. One 'problem' in Buddhism which arises from realizing, at the logical extreme, as noted in the article, that one cannot attain enlightenment and be pursuing the goal of attaining enlightenment at the same time. To have a goal is to be a thing which has a goal, to be a thing which has a goal is to not have become disillusioned of self, or of being a thing. Again I think this arises out of the focus we place on self in our minds and language. You cannot say, I am enlightened, and be enlightened, it is a contradiction. Our language does not let us say this logically. To say it logically would sound absurd and have no meaning; ' enlightened' it isn't even a sentence. However considering the focus that language/thought puts on self, in the context of that language/thought it cannot make sense if something is said which stops focusing in that way.
I would suggest, as one other poster here suggested, for the reader to look between the lines of the article and this conversation; that is self, that is suffering.
The more I come to understand, I think, the more I realize that, for me, Buddhism is very much something which must be 'observing', rather than 'something that I learn'.
No self IMO is the shifting of focus away from self. And even this still creates the self concept. I know it is incorrect even as I say it. Ultimately I think you must know what no-self means to know what no-self means. You must be enlightened to be enlightened. No-self no-self. Which is why it may be difficult to effectively communicate this concept in an encyclopedia.
Whether this has any place in an encyclopedia I will let others decide. To avoid being a hypocrite I will say that my thoughts have been strongly influenced by Theravada teaching, and then have progressed ( I imagine) from there, according to my own inquiry’s and experience into and on the subject and should be considered as coming from that context and bias.
18:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I note that a tag has been placed on this "anatta" entry, urging deletion. I would oppose such deletion at this stage -until a better version has been produced (here in the discussion pages on a trial basis)and received substantial support from Wiki editors. I have made a move towards improving the current article by restoring the section on "Tathagatagarbha and non-Self", which was unjustifiably removed. Other persons may like to help shape and improve the rest of the article. But until a better version of the entire article has been written and offered for consideration, I would say it is best not to delete the present article as it now stands, but to keep it, so that others may make suitable amendments. Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 17:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I do no think this sentence should be included in this article. It seems to make it sound like Nibbana is a place which can contain the self (or even just a place). Nibbana in the Pali Suttas is the cessation of anger, greed, and delusion. Anyways, the line in Dhammapada 20 is very curious since the first two statements on reality specifically mention conditioned phenomena as transitory and then as sorrowful, but the third statement mentions dhammas as not-self. Look at ( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/nibban2.htm)...it argues that the word dhamma might not always include Nibbana, but also explicitly gives a passage where Nibanna is included in the meaning of dhamma. The rest of the article focuses on how Nibanna is not "not-Self" although the author does state that this is a "tentative opinion" (and not an assertion) and so forth. Getting back to the point, to state that this passage does not include Nibbana is to put a POV...since it is very odd to have a sequence of conditioned, conditioned, and then dhamma. Why not just use conditioned phenomena (sankhara)in place of dhamma if he meant it in that way (everything would be consistent then!). Probably the best way to look at Nibbana is not in the context of Self or not-Self, since it really does not refer to that argument. Actually AN 4.174 quite clearly states that one should not look at Nibbana in that perspective. So I want to remove this statement or have it at least changed to something like there is "debate" on whether the Pali Buddha ever designated Nirvana as "not-Self". I think that would be more NPOV. Tony? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucifereri ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
""Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. 1 Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Note 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here — as a dhamma, or object of the intellect — even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn 5.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN 35.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done. Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10). This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN 4.174 states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to complicate the uncomplicated — see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all differentiation is allayed."
If the central teaching of the Pali Buddha was that absolutely everything is non-Self and that nirvana too is non-Self, one might expect him to say so very clearly and explicitly, at least once in the whole of his recorded career!! But he never does. Strange. So I think my sentence should remain, as being factually accurate.At the very least, one can say that there is ambiguity here - and so I have added the word "unambiguously" to try to be more fair to your side of the argument. But my statement that the Buddha does not categorically, and in terms, assert that Nirvana is non-Self is in fact correct. Thanks, though, for your reasonable and sensible comments. All best wishes. Tony. TonyMPNS 09:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
--
So, I agree with this statement "The use of the term "all" clearly does not always mean truly "all" (including Nirvana)". But the problem I have is that in some cases (and this does occur in the Suttas) dhamma is referenced to include formations and Nibbana. The following example:
Yávatá bhikkhave dhammá sankhatá vá asankhatá vá, virágo tesam dhammánam aggam akkháyati, yadidam madanimmadano pipásavinayo álayasamuggháto vattúpacchedo tanhakkhayo virágo nirodho nibbánam. (Anguttara 4.34)
Whatever things (dhammá), monks, there are, formed or unformed, the topmost of those things is declared to be dispassion, that is to say, the ending of intoxication, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of yearning, the interruption of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, extinction.
So the line from Dhammapada can be seen by both sides: one saying it refers to Nibanna, and the other saying no it does not. Those are two POVs then; furthermore, it is odd that the first two aspects of "Reality" (anicca and dukkha) are explicitly referenced to formations (sankhárás) while the third on not-self is to dhammas (dhammas include sankhárás), instead of the normal formations word (sankhárá). That change ("Sabbe sankhara ..., Sabbe sankhara ..., Sabbe dhamma ...) really confounds everything! The above statements by no way really prove that the term dhamma always includes Nibbana (look at the example you gave :)), but it does make one think about any statement concerning Nibanna. Anyways I suppose the problem I have then is that of ambiguity (as you noted) since it is not clear if he denied to Nibbana self or not-self. Furthermore, I might argue that having Nibbana be declared self or not-self is systematically incorrect with respect to the Pali Suttas. The problem is not all the POVs are represented. I do not think that the Buddha categorically affirmed self in Nibbana (actually his Noble Silence indicates he would not answer such questions).
So to conclude, I agree that that sentence is correct; I just do not think it is complete. I am going to edit it to also include that self (as well as not-self) is not categorically accepted in relation to Nibbana (AN 4.174)in an unambiguous and explicit way; if you do not agree please revert and discuss further :). Thanks for the insightful comments. Lucifereri 08:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Tony, thanks for the pleasant conversation. I also changed "non-Self" to "not-Self". Also, in regards to the Mahayana Sutras, I was hoping you could point me to some good parts of the Tathagatha-garbha Sutras about atman; I also remember a quote in one of the sutras that states that Tathagatha-garbha is also sunyata (if you know of it I would like to the know its location). I am not very familiar with the Mahayana, so that is why I ask; I just want to learn more about the other schools. I doubt this is the appropriate place to ask for this information but I do not know how to pm on wiki (if that is even possible).
Thanks! Lucifereri 09:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
-- I thought it was necessary to add an observation in this section regarding the Anguttara chapter 4 sutta 34 [AN II.34] citation in support of the idea that Nibbana can be classed as a thing amongst sabbe dhammaa (for the purpose of saying it is anatta). Even this passage can very naturally be interpreted in a different way, with only the effort of going back to examine it in context, to go back and read the entire sutta. Put back into context, the thing that immediately becomes evident is that the statements using the word dhammaa, back in their original context, occur sandwiched between statements about the Buddha and about the Sangha, and that the sutta speaks about faith in each one. So the sutta exhorts us to have faith in the Buddha, two kinds of dhammaa (the eightfold path being the example of a "sankhata" dhamma, and Nibbana as a "asankhata" dhamma and the highest of either sankhata or asankhata dhammas), and the Sangha. So it becomes rather clear that we are talking about the triple refuge/triple gem, which makes it entirely viable here to read dhammaa here as dhammaa in the sense of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha; in other words, "teaching, norm, discipline, ideal." So when we say of the eightfold path here that it is a "sankhata dhamma," it is in reference to it being eightfold, of eight parts, remembering of course that sankhata has a basic meaning of "made up of more than one thing; complex, compounded". So: "Of teachings that are complex, the eightfold path is the highest," and likewise: "Of teachings both complex and simplex, dispassion (etc: Nibbana) is the highest." The passage continues: Ye bhikkhave dhamme pasannà, agge te pasannà. "Bhikkhus, those who have placed faith in this teaching have place faith in the highest." So it seems to add up that, rather than obliquely classifying Nibbana as a thing amongst "sabbe dhammaa," as it has for so long been cited as doing, the passage in question merely names Nibbana as one of the Buddha's teachings, and not suprisingly, the highest! Vacchagotta 04:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't quite wrap my brain around this sentence to fix it: "However, the Buddha did explicitly teach anattā - the non-existence of a intrinsic, lasting person or ‘soul’ - throughout his teaching career; not in a negative, nihilistic way of 'non-reality', but rather by showing 'why it is' and how to see it integrated positively in the law of kamma ~ cause and effect, directing the contemplative “When you see with detachment, All fabrications are inconstant…” naturally leads one to the wisdom that “...All fabrications are unsatisfactory…” ~ because of unawareness and desire resulting in self-identification with the changing events, realization of which leads the mind to release of self-identification through restrained observation of things ‘as they are’ ~ tathatá, leading to pure awareness, seeing that ~ “...All phenomena are not-self...” , the direct realization of the impossibility of an everlasting anything, self or witness." For one thing, it seems to be a rather impressively-sized run-on sentence. I'm not sure what all the ~ are supposed to mean. I'm unclear on how some of the ideas expressed fit together. I'm also unclear on why some phrases are include within 'single quotes'; for instance, what does the phrase "but rather by showing 'why it is'" mean other than simply "but rather by showing why it is"?
Everybody should take note of the fact that this article was completely rewritten by an anonymous editor on November 13. That's why it's not wikified. I wasn't very familiar with the older version, so I have no opinion as to which is better.— Nat Krause( Talk!) 05:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I was pleased with the progress being made by Tony Page and everyone working on this article, when lo and behold, the content has been reverted to the old one sided and highly problematic article. Be forewarned, attasarana and his advaita bunch consider this their territory and they are not likely to give it up easily.
An editor shifted the carefully balanced Introduction of this entry to the end of the article (an incongruous position for it). The article then had no Introduction. I think this was utterly unjustified. I have restored the Intro and deleted the "unorthodox understanding" heading, which was unnecessary. Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 13:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The run-on sentence in this section of the article has been reorganized. I hope this helps for this sections presentation and readability.
"However, the Buddha did explicitly teach anattā - the non-existence of a intrinsic, lasting person or ‘soul’ - throughout his teaching career"
Fallacy of composition A is not X, B,C,D,E are also not X, therefore X doesnt exist.
To 'teach anatta' (which the Upanishads do as well as Samkara) is no denial of X, to deny X of Phenomena an-X (anatta) is common via negativa in sutta. "there are no Elephants in Alaska, only fish, bears, and deer; therefore Elephants dont exist", just such a fallacy of composition. I suggest intelligent thought in the future before making unintelligent statements.
"anatta, anatta, what does anatta mean Lord? Just this, form is not the atman (anatta), neither too feelings, etc." - SN 3.196
22 nouns are called anatta in Sutta, nothing more; ABCDEF are an-atta. -- Attasarana( talk)
INTRO:> The Buddhist teaching of "anatta" / "anatman" (non atma, non Self, non Soul) refers to what Rawson (1991: p.11) states as "...meaning non-selfhood, the absence of limiting self-identity in people and things..."……
This intro is both commentarial, conjecture and also, for a newcomer, very clouded as to meaning. All religious claims as pertains translation/meaning must be sola sciptura, ie with substantiation in sutta, even if in the extreme, Mahayana sutra.
Massive changes to this text require A: Substantiation, B: doctrinal support C: logical consistency. -- Attasarana( talk)
Noticeably, there are many baseless claims in the article starting with “contrary to Vedanta…….Buddhism taught…..”. This is a baseless claim. Accuracy requires evidences with book and verse (preferably standard roman indexing) from Sutta and or Sutra. There are countless time the Atman is referred to = nicca (permanent), namely such as SN 1.169, j-1441, Udana 94, Itivuttaka 83. To make the baseless claim that Gotama only talked about the objective and empirical self (namo-rupa/ 5 khandhas) is without substantiation in Sutta.
No claims of accuracy can be made about the adjective anatta without evidences from sutta, and that cannot be diverged from UNLESS under secular subsections such as “Theravada (view on anatta)”, etc. -- Attasarana( talk)
You have commited several fallacies in your above baseless statement. Secondary sources, as you mention them, are never a reference for doctrinal terms and elaboration, Sola scriptura, only doctrinal citations are, never conjecture, opinions, nor your sectarian mahayana "secondary sources"
As per your claims that you "cannot trust my citations" you give no evidences for same, NOR are you capaable of same.
Your Nazi-like attempt at dominating buddhism on wikipedia is both a travesty and a sectarian agenda based upon your skewed non-doctrinal indoctrination. As for translations, most i use are not my own, however since i know defacto that you cannot read Pali, then your CLAIM that "X citation/translation is untrustworthy" is a impossible statement for you to make. No massive changes to the article can be permited unless you can show by doctrine, that X statement is wrong, and of this i know you cannot achieve.
Your massive re-writes of this passage cannot be permited since you both DO NOT, and obviously CAN NOT discuss any and all changes-- Attasarana( talk)
"unenlightened discussion" is ad hominem, and a baseless claim, Nat, you should be above this. Ive provided endless citation on anatta in Sutta to refute you, of this you cannot argue, only pontificate and play cyberlord with wikipedia with blatent disregard for the primary source as reference, ie suttana.
In the future, unless you can deny such passages as SN 3.195 and the like, you should refrain from altering wikipedia to fit your sectarian and conjecture-based views upon the term anatta and all other buddhist philosophical lexicon....
Buddhism differs from the “nothing-morist” (Skt. Nastika, Pali natthika) in affirming a spiritual nature that is not in any wise, but immeasurable, inconnumerable, infinite, and inaccessible to observation; and of which, therefore, empirical science can neither affirm nor deny the reality thereof of him who has ‘Gone to That[Brahman]” (tathatta). It is to the Spirit (Skt. Atman, Pali attan) as distinguished from oneself (namo-rupa)-i.e., whatever is phenomenal and formal (Skt. and Pali nama-rupa, and savinnana-kaya) “name and appearance”, and the “body with its consciousness”.
Sutta states explicitly that natthatta’ (no-Soul) = natthika (nihilism) = ucchedavada (Annihilationism). If you do hold the view that there is "no-Soul", you are a Natthika (nihilist); i.e. a Ucchedavadin.
"In distinct contrast to the Vedic theories of the ‘Ātman’ contemporary to his time, the Buddha rejected these in one clean sweep in the doctrine of anattā".
This claim in the massive edit the nihilists keep reposting (along with countless others like it) is not only a baseless claim/conjecture of sectarian origins, but also contradicted in Vedantic texts.
The Upanishads and Samkara use the term Anatman as well as buddhism. to say the above is an outrageous fallacy and error without measure.
Samkara (founder of Advaita Vedanta) in his core text, the Upadisa Sahasri uses the term anatman no less than 20 times. To say buddhism is in "contrast" to Vedanta is utterly nonsensical and without basis. Anatta rejected nothing except the denial of Selfhood in Phenomena.
ABCDEF not X, therefore X is denied is a gigantic fallacy being commmited here by the corruptors of the anatta article. It belies an affirmation of an ignorance of via negativa (neti neti) common to buddhism same as all of Vedanta. -- webmaster attan.com Attasarana( talk)
“The Buddha is a teacher of non-dualism (advayavadin [i.e. Advaita])”[Mahavyutpatti; 23: Divyavadaana. 95.13]
"Gotama is a VEDASOTTHIM (Sage of the Vedas)"- Patisambhidamagga
[DN 3.84] "The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'." (this passage also proves [from earlier context] that Brahma (god/s) is utterly diffferent than the word Brahman). [DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”
[DN 1.248] ”all the peoples say that Gotama is the supreme teacher of the way leading to the Union with Brahman!” [3.646 Pat-Att.] “To have become Brahman [is the meaning of] Brahmabhuto.” [Atthakanipata-Att. 5.72] “To become Brahman is to become highest Svabhava (Self-nature).” [It 57] “Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata.” [SN 3.83] “Without taints, it meant ‘Become-Brahman’.” [SN 5.5] “The Aryan Eightfold Path is the designation for Brahmayana (path to Brahman).” [MN 1.341] “The Soul is having become Brahman.” [SN 4.117] "Found the ancient path leading to Brahman."
I don't know, being a little inexperienced on the subject but this article seems very POV on the issue of a soul in Buddhism. Consistently only one view is stated, which I would think is a problem with the amount of different interpretations on the issue. Also most of the basis for the one view comes from orthodoxy and tradition as supporting it and ruling out all others, which seems to run very opposite of the core tenants of Buddha. It just reeks of lacking objectivity. All the sources cite certain scholars who've taken to fully supporting their position, as well.
Baseless conjecture? I know for certain there are very many Buddhist scholars who happen to support the view of "no soul" in Buddhism, through brief research alone. The "intepretation" is "interpreting" the doctrines and writings themselves (and even if you don't agree with this view it's necessary in an unbiased encyclopedia to show this). Endless citations does not objectivity make, especially when the citations are in support of one view alone. The sources I referred to were George Grimm and Perez-Remon being cited (both known for a pro-soul view), your own uploaded image, and links to sites supporting this, not whatever scriptures that're being cited. The Brahmajala Sutta also states belief in a soul is wrong because it is because of clinging and longing.
"The Soul is the dearest beloved" [AN 4.97] "The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto" [KN Jatakapali 1441] "To be fixed in the Soul is to be flood crossed" [Mahavagga-Att. 2.692] "The Soul is Svabhava(Self-Nature)." [Maha’vagga-Att. 3.270] "The Soul is the refuge to be sought" [Suttanipata-Att. 1.129] --- Attasarana
1. Scholars like Davids, Conze, Humphrey, Schrader, Horner, Pande, Coomarswamy, Radhakrishnan, Sogen, Suzuki, Julius Evola, and Nakamura, just to name some important scholars, disagree with the claim that Buddha categorically denied an eternal (nicca) soul, whose teachings then, would be classified as Annihilationist and Materialist.
2. Nowhere is there such a tradition as ‘Hinduism’ or ‘Brahmanism’ which are terms coined by Occidental scholars. The claim than the Buddha was ‘anti-Hindu’ or ‘anti-Brahman’ is unproven.
3. Buddha’s unconditioned Attâ (soul) had nothing to do with the five khandhas schema which are conditioned and mere attributes. Nowhere in any five khandha scheme is Attâ refuted. What is refuted is that the five khandhas are the Attâ (soul).
4. The lexical rule that Attâ is to be used strictly in a pronominal fashion, or simply should be used as a signifier for the finite body, is unwarranted.
5. The Buddha never considered Attâ to be (wrong view).
6. If the Buddha disbelieved in an Attâ (soul) why did he not deny the Attâ unambiguously?
7. Why didn’t the Buddha identify the Attâ (soul) with the physical body?
8. Why is the Attâ (soul), in the Atthakatha (commentaries) squarely equated with the Tathagata which is considered to be transcendent?
9. Why is there no strict philosophical treatment of the Attâ in Occidental literature? It seems odd that an historic study and not a philosophic study is the preferred treatment of the Attâ/anattâ dispute by Western scholars.
10. Modern Buddhist commentators are certainly wrong when they assert that a work bears a certain meaning which it does not seem to possess in a particular context. This is to say, being more precise, modern Buddhist commentators are off the mark when their interpretation does not close down certain textual ambiguities and contradictions.
11. By denying outright the soul, by default, the Theravadins and modern Buddhists imply that the five aggregates are ultimate. This of course is absurd. They have merely shifted Buddhism to empiricism by ignoring pro-soul statements. According to them, what is real is what makes sensory knowledge possible, namely, the five aggregates which, ironically, according to the canon, are suffering being synonymous with Mara the Evil One (the Buddhist devil)!
12. It begs the question to assume that the no-soul doctrine had been established at the beginning of the Buddha’s ministry and that Attâ (soul) was, in every respect, an abhorrent term. Still, for such a supposedly abhorrent term, there are countless positive instances of Attâ used throughout the Nikayas, especially used in compounds which are easily glossed over by a prejudicial translator. In meeting these instances, not surprisingly, these same prejudicial translators have erected a theory that Attâ is a reflexive pronoun. This is rather hard to prove since sa and sayam are the reflexive pronouns of the Pali language, not Attâ.
13. Much later, the Theravadins were compelled to invent a two truth theory. With the numerous instances of Attâ (soul) being found in the canon, hardly any with pejorative implications, they fabricated the Abhidhamma taxonomy which they claim was first delivered in heavens by the Buddha to the gods who could better understand a no-soul theory than mere humans!
14. In the Nikayas, hetrodox uses of soul are noted, which are called ‘attânudittha’. One main hetrodox use of soul is in the idea of Perpetualism in which the soul is regarded in a physical sense which lives in perpetuity like the cosmos.
15. What is sometimes elaborated upon in the Nikayas is the heterodox uses of Attâ (soul)‹not its outright, categorical rejection.
16. That the Buddha denied the theories of Perpetualism and Annihilationism is true. But Mahavira, the Jain, denied both positions as well. But did Mahavira deny, altogether, the principle of a soul? No he did not. Neither did Gotama the Buddha.
17. The Buddha says many times that we are not to regard our Attâ (soul) as being connected with the five aggregates. webmaster attan.com--- Attasarana
Mahanidesapali 2.235 “niccato sukhato attatoti” Eternal bliss in the Soul Nettipakaranapali #86 “anicce niccanti, anattani attati” “What is anatta is impermanent, what is eternal is the Soul” Silakhandhavaggapali Att. 2.377 atta’nan niccameva “Soul is eternal”
Sassatavada is the Vaisesika school, comes from the word S’a’s (leaping, perpetual reoccurance). SN 2.20 “the experience and the experiencer were inseperable”, thereby creating a impossibility for disconjunction of causation.
sassatavada is the heresy that mere action (kamma) was Utmost, and that good rebirth/Heavens was the best one might achieve. As per: “The meritorious are REBORN in heavens (devaloka), the evil go to hell (niraya), but the WISE are nowhere reborn, theirs is emancipation (vimutta)"—Dhammapadanapali
You continue to insult yourself by making baseless claims, conjectures, fallacies and worst of all assuming your views or any others, superceeds doctrine, dont make that mistake again. For saving face, dont continue to belittle yourself by making unsubstantiated claims.--- Attasarana
You have said: "I do know however that a vocal segment of Buddhists contend that..." - this is called a 'BANDWAGGON FALLACY'. Your fallacy would also presume that since Muslims outnumber Buddhists 10,000 to 1, the "vocal segment", therefore its illogical to be a Buddhist.
The greatest fool in Buddhist doctrine was one who “saw Self (atman) in (mere) self (anatta)” (“anattani ca attati”) [AN 2.52], certainly one of the most common refrains in Buddhist sutta. Some of the greatest harbingers of the incapacity to differentiate the empirical (namo-rupic) self from The Self are most certainly the ‘Buddhists’ who never end in revelry of quoting Gotama to the effect that all ‘phenomena are Selfless (anattoti)’. The empirical self is = anatta, [SN 3.196], that very khandic (namo-rupic) self which modern ‘Buddhism’ alone acknowledges, but not that other Self which is the “light and refuge” [Dn 2.154].
What has Buddhism to say of the Self? "That's not my Self" (na me so atta); and the term "non Self-ishness" (anatta) are predicated of the world and all "things" (sabbe dhamma anatta; identical with the Brahmanical "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", (anatma hi martyah, [SB., II. 2. 2. 3]). [KN J-1441] “The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto”. For anatta is not said of the Self/Soul but what it is not. There is never a ‘doctrine of no-Soul’, but a doctrine of what the Soul (The Self) is not (form is anatta, feelings are anatta, etc.). It cannot be denied that what is anatta is indeed the mere and petty self for [SN 3.196], and countless other passages, the mere self of psycho-physicality is = anatta = khandhas; that same self which the disciple is instructed to have his will (ctta) reject in the face of illumination and insight.
sabbe (accusative plural). Dhamma is not the direct object of this sentence but rather the subject. One cannot know the meaning of this three-word phrase, which occurs 17 times in Sutta without knowing sabba's meaning at Samyutta Nikaya book 4 verse 15. The sectarian dogma that has grown around this three-word phrase is not found nor can it be attributed to these passages based upon Sutta, context, nor SN 4.15; but only on much later nihilistic slanted commentary. Dhamma in this three word phrase, as Dhammapada #277 and #278 show, is interchangeable with sankha’ra’.:Completely in line with the Sabbe sutta at SN 4.15, sabbe is "‘the ‘all’". This is shown above and below at the Dhammapada that the 17 occurrences of “sabbe dhamma’ anatta'” are occasioned by an.kha'ra' (phenomena). Sabba’s meaning is not "‘all’" nor the adjective of this phrase, that is reserved for anatta'. It has been falsely believed by many that Dhamma is the direct object of the sentence given it location of the middle in the phrase, but this is incorrect since it is undeclined and sabba in its many other occurrences above show in fact that sabba is the crux of what is anatta, afflictions, and ablaze. One might think Khandhas (skhandas), are the conventional term for ‘the ‘all’, but in actu’all’y khandhas means "mass" or "collection" and do not always carry negative connotation in Sutta as it pertains to the "five khadhas". The "five heaps" is a much more accurate translation for khandha. Khandha is also used in context pertaining to Gotama Buddhas' teachings as khandhas, or "collection/mass of doctrine". Khandha implies "masses", whereas sabba implies "matter/ ‘the ‘all’", especi’all’y sensory related matter; sabba: Lat. solidus & soldus "solid". Both mass (khandha) and matter (sabba) are encompassed by theterm san.kha'ra' (phenomena). --- Attasarana
Of the Metaphysician, the common-fool (puthujjana) who knows “only of his self, is fated to most certainly die when his time comes”, but of that noble Aryan sage who has claimed the summit of wisdom and is “freed the will/nous (cittavimuttati)”, he is a “dead man walking”; meaning he has “died to that mere self and lives in The Self”. Such a person in quest for same is commanded “die before ye die!”, or that before physical death come and lest you still suffer the delusion of The Self to be this (foul) self of flesh and bone you have dispirited and disobjectified the will (Self-assimilation = Atman) in upon itself (samadhi, liberation).
The common fool who ruminates over immortality envisages the survival of the personality (of person so-and-so; Bob, Sue); confusing the empirical self of “flesh, urine, blood, bone, feces” [Dhm] with the Spirit (atman). This empirical self is in doubt by none, that very same self “headed to the grave” and which “goes in its own time”. The Metaphysician knows that any ‘self’ created in time must also perish in those same (“fires of”) time. [Dhm. 147] "Behold! That painted puppet this body, riddled with oozing sores, an erected façade. Diseased heap that fools fancy and swoon over”; of which Buddhism in no way quarrels with modern and corrupt ‘Buddhism’, that of which this very self, the temporal phenomena of that person so-and-so is equally as much ‘dukkha, anicca, and anatta”.
The ‘reflexive position’ taken by illogical modern ‘Buddhism’ proclaims the Pali term Attan (Skt. Atman, Self) to be merely a reflexive term meaning “oneself, himself, herself”, however the reflexive and empirical mere self is, regardless of translation, “anatta” i.e. “na me so atta” (not my Soul), or also “eso khandhassa na me so atta” (these aggregates [forms, feelings, perceptions, experiences, consciousness =mere self] are no the Self, the Soul). As pertains the reflexive self, of who proclaim “myself, himself, herself” we are referring to “that person so-and-so (Larry, Sue, etc.)”, the empirical and psycho-physical (namo-rupa) self of blood and sinew which is “doomed to fall into the grave at long last”, the very same self the poetic dead are said to cry out to the living “what you are, we (the dead) once were,. what we are you shall be!”. Even more illogical is the double standard of commentarialist and sectarian ‘Buddhists’ who desire anatta to mean ‘no-Soul’ as well as atta to mean simply ‘myself, himself, herself’; wherein illogically atta in the adjective anatta is, to their ignorant minds = Soul (‘no-soul’), but atta in standalone = ‘myself’. As illogical an end result, modern Buddhism has proclaimed atta = anatta! Its quite hard to fathom any position more senseless than this, however this is one of the countless reasons modern ‘Buddhism’ is illogical without end. However doctrinally and logically so, what IS anatta (the five psycho-physical aggregates of the mere self) are indeed ‘myself’, in so meaning the mortal (mata) self composed of the bodily humors which is fated to death. That mere self is never implied nor meant when Buddhism speaks of immortality and the path leading to same (amatagamimagga) [SN 5.9], of which “the body cannot pass that gate to fare beyond,..only the Soul (The Self)” - Homer
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.009.bodh.html? -- Lucifereri
The great dictum of the Upanishads is “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course, the Atman or Spirit, Sanctus Spiritus, the Greek pneuma; this Atman is the spiritual essence, impartite whether transcendent or immanent; and however many and various directions to which it may extend or from which it may withdraw, it is the unmoved mover in both intransitive and transitive senses. It lends itself to all modalities of being but never itself becomes anyone or anything. That than which all else is vexation- That thou art. “That”, in other words, is Brahman, or Godhead in the general sense of Logos or Being, considered as the universal source of all Being. That which is “in” him as the finite (1) in the infinite (2-infinity, i.e. phenomena, namo-rupa), though not a “part” of him.
Referring back to "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", the common fool doesn’t have an atman as such that we might agree with heretical modern ‘Buddhism’ which denies Selfhood in the absolute; for those same peoples who, in the grand bloom of ignorance, accept the foul self and deny the Great-Self, they are objectively (self-khandhas) assured that no underlying Subject (The Self) is immanent, or transcendent. Just as a man might have gold on his land, undiscovered and unknown, he has no gold, no wealth, even though it be his by measure of being present upon his very lands; so too those common fools (puthujjana), the ‘Buddhists’ who are certain and proud in their ignorance that this temporal personality, this self, is all there is. Theravada, in great illogic, goes one further to say that Gotama’s denial of nihilism (ucchedavada) was aimed at meaning that even the empirical self, since it itself was merely a composite and temporal construct, had no existence to be annihilated; thereby subverting the doctrinal ‘heresy of nihilism’ to be placed upon the view of denying the empirical self rather than The Self, the Atman. Of course, to ‘have an atman’ implies possession, and certainly so the immanent Subject, The Self, is a possession by nothing and by nobody; in this too the wiseman agrees with the common materialist who ignorantly proclaims “I don’t have an atman/Soul”, most certainly that foul self does not ‘have’ The Self any more so than that object which is illuminated from afar ‘has (of itself) light’.
“There are two within us” [Plato’s Republic 439d, 604b]; in the expression of “self-control” implying that there is one that controls and the other (self) subject to control, for we know that “nothing acts upon itself”; for the one self “becomes”, and the other self “is”. “The ‘fair’ self (kalyanam attanam)…the ‘foul’ self (papam attanam)” [AN 1.149]; i.e. the “great Self” (mahatta) and the “petty” (appatumo) [AN 1.249], or that “self whose Lord is the Self” [Dhm 380]. In that modern so-called Buddhism has denied The Self, it has constructed an illogical impossibility in thereby positing empirical purity of which the doctrine of Buddhism itself, not to mention logic alone most heartily protests, for there is no possibility of empirical purity within the teachings of Buddhism.
It is of course true that the Buddha denied the existence of the mere empirical “self” in the very meaning of “my-self” (this person so-and-so, namo-rupa, an-atta), one might say in accordance with the command ‘denegat seipsum, [Mark VII.34]; but this is not what modern so-called Buddhism means to say, or are understood by their readers to say; what they mean to say is that the Buddha denied the immortal (amata), the unborn (ajata) and Supreme-Self (mahatta’) of the Upanishads. And that is palpably false, for he frequently speaks of this Self, or Spirit (mahapurisha), and nowhere more clearly than in the too often repeated formula 'na me so atta’, “This/these are not my Soul” (na me so atta’= anatta/anatman), excluding body (rupa) and the components of empirical consciousness (vinnana/ nama). "What of this short-lived body which is clung to by means of craving? There is nothing in it to say ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘me’." [MN 1.185]. "What do you suppose, followers, if people were carrying off into the Jeta grove bunches of sticks, grasses, branches, and leaves and did with them as they wished or burned them up, would it occur to you: These people are carrying us off, are doing as they please with us, and are burning us? No, indeed not Lord. And how so? Because Lord, none of that is our Soul." [MN 1.141]. “What do you think, is form lasting or impermanent? Impermanent Gotama. Is that which is impermanent suffering or blissful? Indeed its suffering Gotama. Is that which is impermanent and suffering and subject to perpetual change; is it fit to declare of such things ‘this is mine, this is what I am, this is my Soul? Indeed not Gotama!” [MN 1.232].
"What do you think, monks: if people were to carry away the grass, sticks, branches and leaves in this Jeta Grove, or burnt them or did with them what they pleased, would you think: These people carry us away, or burn us, or do with us as they please?" — "No, Lord." — "Why not?" Because, Lord, that is neither our self nor the property of our self." — "So, too, monks, give up what is not yours! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. What is it that is not yours? Corporeality... feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness are not yours. Give them up! Your giving them up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness." -- Lucifereri
Buddhism’s command, same as that of Plotinus and the Pythagoreans before him, was the utter disobjectification of the will by inversion of that primordial attribute which is uncaused and without beginning (attribute/avijja). For only the wise and illuminated fully know the two selves, differentiate the two by means of wisdom with which they are endowed, and certainly do not see “Self in what is (mere) self (anatta)”. webmaster attan.com -- Attasarana( talk)
This article will be pretty fun to rewrite\revert. This is full of POVs and uncited meanings. Webpages should not be cited for this (unless it has been accademically reviewed in a PROPER way...usually books are better, which I see none of). This is also disturbing because the view this article portrays is not a majority view. Once I rewrite this article (whenever I get around to it), it will have citations to sites like accesstoinsight or to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the Pali scriptures. If u want to use ur own please, show clearly where they come from (I do not want to search a web page for the translations, just a link to the place called translated suttas or whatever). Have any of those translations been peer-reviewed?
Your position that Buddhism is Empiricist psychology instead of a liberation ontology of a class of fine Metaphysics in the Vedantic tradition is without support in the Nikayas. That you suffer the delusion that the Nikayas 'belong' to the Theravada is both illogical and not even a 'consensus' view by the vast majority of Buddhologists. --- Attasarana
No-Soul: NATTHATTA'.(literally “there is not/no[nattha]+atta’[Soul]) has only five occurrences (all at SN 4.400) anywhere in Sutta/Atthakatha. Anatta’ is not “no-Soul”, but natthatta’ which is deemed, by Gotama, to be ucchedavada annihilationist heresy.
[SN 3.196] Anatta = 5 khandhas = mere self; nothing more.
[SN 3.196] At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: “Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?” “Just this Radha, form is not the Soul, sensations are not the Soul, perceptions are not the Soul, assemblages are not the Soul, consciousness is not the Soul. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled.” --webmaster attan.com Attasarana( talk)
Attasarana, gives us the translation of his moniker as “The Soul is Refuge”; is merely a back-read atmavādic translation of a line from Dīgha Nikaya 16 2.25-26 ‘… bhikkhu attadīpo viharati attasaraṇo…’ “Monks, abide as islands unto yourselves, as a refuge unto yourselves…” - ‘atta’ in this case read as a reflexive pronoun. - - His name is Ken Lee Wheeler. He has published hack literature on Buddhist topics under the penname Shakya Aryanatta and divides up his time otherwise in Yahoo Buddhism chat rooms as ancientbuddhism, where he and his sycophant followers harass and propagate his schlock translations from the Pali Canon - he is infamous for bombarding the private mailboxes of his critics with unsolicited obnoxious messages and calls private phones to leave unsolicited obnoxious voice messages to those dislikes.
- As anyone here can see, he is easy enough to refute, although he will never accept correction when valid translations and academics are presented. - - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.95.203.235 ( talk) 07:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
I need a good reason why I should not take this website link down. First of all, who translated the suttas they quote in the page (with this information, I can then look up academic info on the source, ie, critiques, ideology of the translator, how respected the transalator in regards to his peers, and such...the reason for this is nobody was faulty translations :))? Second I have a problem with the almost propagandist view it puts up on "Soul" in Buddhism. Quotes on the page are used many times out of context...example: the quote about union with bhramha (NOT bhraman as the web page uses...there really is no reference to a neuter bhraman in Pali Buddhism that I know of...there can be, please point it out) was given to an individual who asked how to achieve union with bhrama. This was explained by attaining the jhanas...later on (in a different sutta), that same monk lets go of that jhana to attain Nibanna, which is achieved through Vipassanna! Union with bhrama here means being born in the bhrama world, and in another sutta bhrama is denied the charactersitic of the all-powerful god head. Being the largest website makes no difference at all and having a label such as "original Buddhism" is so mis-leading...this is not a majority viewpoint on original Buddhism. To talk about "original Buddhism" one must at least talk about the various schools that existed after the Parinibanna of the Buddha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucifereri ( talk • contribs).
contribs) 03:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 23:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, for Mahayana, I am sure there might be positive teachings...for Theravada I am not so sure :-P. -- Lucifereri 03:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Written to goethean by wiki moderator: Hi there. When you're in a content dispute with other editors, please don't write "rv v" as your edit summary. This implies that the other users' edits are vandalism. Content disputes and vandalism are two different things, and calling another user's edits vandalism is uncivil. Thanks. Heimstern Läufer 05:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Luciferereri, I see you are tempted to rewrite this article. I look forward to reading your endeavour with interest. Note that "discussions" about this page have been going on for a very long time without resolution. I suggest, if you have not done so already, that you read all the previous messages, including the archived ones.
Given the nature of the topic of the article, I think it will be very difficult ever to reach a consensus over its contents. One problem that I note in these discussions is a confusion between what the Buddha may or may not have taught and what later Buddhist schools say he taught. There is potentially a very large chasm between the two.
The first step would be to present a reconstruction of what the Buddha probably DID actually teach -- along the lines of Tillman Vetter's well known study of early Buddhist teachings and practices. Much of this confirms Attasarana's basic position. Thus, there are now a number of recent bona fide scholars who seem willing to concede that there is no evidence in the Pali Nikāyas that the Buddha actually denied the existence of a Self (ātman), though this understanding has failed to percolate down to the general Wiki type of editor. Vetter suggests that the Buddha himself only critiqued the pudgala type of concept or the sat-kāya view. At a later stage, the subtle differences were lost and, with the rise of the Pudgalavādins within Buddhism, denial of the existence of the Self was introduced as a defensive knee-jerk reaction. It should be noted, in passing, that the stratified nature of the Nikayas is well-known and this should be taken into account -- much of what is attributed to the Buddha anyway was probably never taught by him, even such hoary favourites as the pratītya-samutpāda, the five skandhas etc etc, counter-intuitive though this may seem. You might also like to look up Lambert Schmithausen's paper on the two approaches within early Buddhism, those based on dhyana and on prajna without dhyana respectively. I would suggest that the originators of many cherished Buddhist tenets were the pro-prajna monks who never bothered to practice dhyana -- there is much more to this, but cannot go into it right now.
So, a sensible way to construct this article would be to present what the Buddha himself may or may not have taught about a Self -- taking into consideration the various synonyms that occur on occasion such as citta and vijñāna. But this presentation should be based solely on the scriptural evidence -- WITHOUT the interpretative use of the atthakathas etc. But this is where Attasarana's problem lies. BhB's translation that you think are so praiseworthy rely heavily on the atthakathas -- thus presenting, by definition, the Theravadin viewpoint. There is no reason why we should accept atthakatha explanations as ipso facto true and reliable. Thus, I mention in passing, I have just finished a translation of the huge Vastu-samgraha by Asanga contained within the Yogacara-bhumi-shastra. This is a summary commentary on most of the Samyukta-āgama. While going through it, I was surprised to find that there virtually no points of exegetical agreement between it and the Pali atthakatha. This shows that within Indian Buddhism there was a wide range of interpretational positions.
If Attasarana feels that he can demonstrate that BhB's translations, for example, are inaccurate or misleading, then what is he to do to satisfy you ? I think he gives the Pali text and location of most of his quotes, so the really interested can look them up elsewhere. Interestingly, there does not seem to be a a hard and fast Wiki rule about sourcing translations. I believe that the relevent guideline merely says that a recognized, published version is to be preferred. You say that you have found glowing praise for BhB's translations -- would the monastery you mention happen to be Theravadin ?
So, after the part of the article dealing with what the Buddha may or may not have actually taught -- with all the proof quotes one might want, then the article should move onto the anatta position of the various Buddhist schools, which should be more straightforward and less contentious. But here again a note of caution. I assume that you think that the predominant position throughout Buddhist history was "no self", but you would be wrong there. The school of Buddhism thought to have had the largest number of adherents by a long chalk was the Sammitiya which espoused Pudgalavada. It is merely a historical accident that their literature has not survived, thus distorting the picture.
Anyway, that's enough for the moment.-- Stephen Hodge 19:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
A.P. Buddhadatta, the well known Sinhalese Pali scholar and head of the Aggarama at Ambalangoda in Ceylon (appointed as the Agga-Mahapandita at the Council of Rangoon) wrote on 4th March 1947 concerning the English edition of George Grimm's main work in a letter to his daughter: " I read that book [DOCTRINE OF THE BUDDHA by George Grimm] , and (found it to be) as you have stated in your letter that ‘he (Grimm) recovered of the old genuine doctrine of the Buddha which had been submerged'. When we (Theravada) read our Pali texts (Abhidhamma) and commentaries (Buddhaghosa, Vishudhamagga), we get the idea that Buddhism is a sort of Nihilism….Thus I was puzzled for a long time to understand the true meaning of Buddhism though I was born a Buddhist. Many peoples do not go so far in these matters (of doctrine)."[Doctrine of the Buddha, ISBN 81-208-1194-1; publ. Montilal Banarsidass publishers. First Edition: Berlin, 1958; reprint 1999. Preface, page 9]. - Attasarana
attasarana, That is a typical specious argument of yours. The Buddha explicitly denied the existence of an eternal self throughout the Nikāyas.
"Venerable Sir, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent, Venerable Sir, is there right view?" ... “The world, Kaccāna, is usually exerted and inclined to being bound to attachments; its things to be identified with and preferences. Although such a one [posessed of Right-View] does not identify with or make determinations of these attachments; its things to be identified with and preferences, nor does he take up the thought “I have a ‘Self’”(na upādiyati nādhiṭṭhāti– ‘attā me’ti). Of this there is no waver or doubt - ‘It is only the arising of affliction that comes into existence; it is only the decline of affliction that is extinguished.’ Knowledge of this does not depend on others. It is to this extent, Kaccāna, that there is right view. SN. 2.15
Please note, Sephen and Tony, that Attasarana is now adding arguments to the middle of the doc above some points others made that never meant to address that insertion. This thread will be pretty hard to read moving forward. -- Lucifereri 11:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Attasarana, why not go back to the "Two Selves in Buddhism" topic and finish the argument there...this thread is a mess, at least that was in much better condition, and you failed to respond to the arguments I presented. Thanks! -- Lucifereri 12:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
HELLO? Does anyone have a copy of this (apprently horrible and expensive) book: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhisms-Highest-Revelation-Shakya-Aryanatta/dp/0971254117/sr=1-1/qid=1172345722/ref=sr_1_1/104-9656467-2115919?ie=UTF8&s=books ? I would like to see if any of the above (which I did not really bother reading, except for a couple of sentances) came from it... Thanks. -- Lucifereri 19:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
“How is it that one is called a ‘Buddha’?...gnosis that the mind/will (citta) is purified (visuddham)…such is how one is deemed a ‘Buddha’.” [MN 2.144] - Attasarana
“The purification of one’s own mind/will (citta); this is the Doctrine of the Buddha” [DN 2.49]
“This is immortality, that being the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling (after anything)” [MN 2.265]
“This said: ‘the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling’ means Nibbana”[MN2-Att. 4.68]
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
“'The purification of one’s own mind/will', this means the light (joti) within one’s mind/will (citta) is the very Soul(attano)” [DN2-Att. 2.479] - Attasarana
[DN 2.157] “No longer with (subsists by) in-breath nor out-breath, so is him (Gotama) who is steadfast in mind (citta), inherently quelled from all desires the mighty sage has passed beyond. With mind (citta) limitless (Brahman) he no longer bears sensations; illumined and unbound (nibbana), his mind (citta) is definitely (ahu) liberated.” The perfect (anasava) mind (citta) being = parinirvana: [SN 3.45] “The mind (citta) being so liberated and arisen from defilements, one is fixed in the Soul as liberation, one is quelled in fixation upon the Soul. Quelled in the Soul one is unshakable. So being unshakable, the very Soul is thoroughly unbound (parinirvana).”- Attasarana
I am new here to Buddhist discussions, but I must say I am heartily dismayed at the false representation that Buddhism had at some point given dismissal to the atman, or the purisha as common to the sanata dharma. I grew up being taught and instructed in the equal representation of Advaita Vedantic interpretations of the Upanishads and that Buddhism found no fault in same.
I have reinstated the correct scriptural position on anatman in the main page. I read that discussion is of paramount importance when doing so, therein I am making the proposition for myself to discuss anatman here in talk, as I am sure I can make reasonable positions from my spiritual education in the teachings of Buddhism that Gautama Shakyamuni had not denied the atman in his dharma. Respectfully signed, Dr.Sanjay Krishnan, professor of Philosophy @ C.D.U. Dr.SanjayKrishnan 21:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Attasarana, gives us the translation of his moniker as “The Soul is Refuge”; is merely a back-read atmavādic translation of a line from Dīgha Nikaya 16 2.25-26 ‘… bhikkhu attadīpo viharati attasaraṇo…’ “Monks, abide as islands unto yourselves, as a refuge unto yourselves…” - ‘atta’ in this case read as a reflexive pronoun.
Please do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia. Your edits could be considered vandalism, and they have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.
His name is . He has published hack literature on Buddhist topics under the penname ,,,,and divides up his time otherwise in Yahoo Buddhism chat rooms as ancientbuddhism, where he and his XXX followers harass and propagate his XXXXX translations from the Pali Canon - he is infamous for bombarding the XXXXX of his critics with XXXXXX and XXXXXX to those dislikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/69.95.62.153
Please do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia. Your edits could be considered vandalism, and they have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.
"Once again, you have shown that you have no interest in being neutral." "You clearly don't know what you are talking about." "This is just typical for you and your ilk." are all considered forms of personal attacks) from Attasarana calling others arguments "pathetic" and "laughable" and using "ilk", too, to my saying that his arguments are not neutral, and even the mention of that book. So I think this is just unfair to single out one individual when there are multiple people who are doing it to varying degrees. Thanks. -- Lucifereri 07:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
13:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This will continue until attasarana is removed and banned from here as he has been on other respectable discussion boards. Thank You!
I have taken the first step to get this article into shape. I have just re-arranged the component sections into a more logical sequence. The next task that needs to be done is to reduce the verbosity of the very long "Anatman in the Nikayas" section. It overwhelms the reader with too much information that comes across as polemical in intent -- plus it introduces irrelevent material that might be more appropriate for an essay rather than an encyclopaedia article. I personally might not be able to do this immediately as I am due to have an eye operation in a couple of days :( However, if nobody else has done so by the time I can work again, I'll have a go.-- Stephen Hodge 20:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephen Hodge, please read carefully the following website, owned and maintained by Attasarana, and tell us if this is the POV of Buddhism wikipedia wants here.
http://www.attan.com/start.html
The numbering system of the sutta references in this section are unknown. Also the translations and interpretations are more than a little suspect. I will try to help clear this up if I have time.
Below are two references on numbering systems in use:
http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/abbrev.html
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html
[User:70.108.148.28|70.108.148.28]
The citation system is not at all unknown. It's the PTS Roman indexing system, which is used widely, preferred for its precision and simplicity. It refers to the volume and page number of the PTS Roman Pali edition such that, for example MN 2.265 refers to the PTS Romanized Pali Majjhima Nikaya Volume 2, page 265. It should be noted that these numbers refer to page numbers in the Pali, NOT to the page numbers in the translation as Nat mistakenly said. For example, the reference to the Deathless (amata) that occurs at MN 2.265 cited in the article ends up on 873 of the PTS english-language volume. So in PTS English translations, Romanized Pali page numbers occur in brackets in the text (e.g."What exists, [265] what has come to be, that I am abandoning.'"--marks the start of page 265 of the corresponding Pali text, but occurs on page 872 of the translation). In the PTS translations, the volume and page numbers of the corresponding Romanized Pali generally also appear in the header of each page of translated text for quick reference.
So far as I could tell, Attasarana's denial was not a denial of using the PTS Roman indexing. He was just insisting that the second numbers involved referred to verse numbers rather than page numbers. While this is strictly incorrect, I suspect that he insisted it to distinguish between the numbers as they refer to the Pali version, and the page numbers of the English translation volumes(which would yield incorrect results if used). In other words he didn't want people looking for MN2.265 on page 265 of the translation, when the correct way is to look for [265] in the text itself (which makes it look like a verse number reference, even though it isn't).
It should also be noted that the PTS Roman edition is not the same as the BJT (Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka of Sri Lanka), which is available for free from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics.-- Vacchagotta 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I took it upon myself to reformat the Anatta in the Nikayas section; my small contribution to cleaning it up, I only standardized the sutta citations to PTS Roman indexing given in footnotes following each citation, for clarity. Vacchagotta 17:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The current intro of the article makes the following important set of claims:
The majority view amongst present-day Buddhists is that the non-Self doctrine means that no ultimate, eternal Self of any kind exists at all within any being—no super-Soul, no enduring Essence, no deathless core. For a minority of Buddhists, however, (particularly within Mahayana Buddhism, such as followers of the Jonangpa School and of Tathagatagarbha Buddhism), the correct understanding is that there is, in fact, a True Self that is not confined within the transitory and suffering-generating skandhas. This True Self is the transcendent, all-pervasive Self of the Buddha himself and is one with Nirvana and is present within all beings. This beilef correlates with the Trikaya Doctrine of Vajrayana Buddhism.
Is this really true? How do we know or estimate the majority view among Buddhists? Tathagatagarbha thought, as far as I'm aware, is quite influential in East Asia and Tibet, where a lot of Buddhists live. The view described here might well be the consensus view in Theravada (I would imagine so, but there may be facts I'm unaware of), but I don't see how we can say more than that with confidence. Also, trikaya doctrine is, unless I'm mistaken, important in all forms of Mahayana, not just Vajrayana.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 05:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
On the question of "another undertanding" (rather than a "variant understanding): yes, I agree with you, Lucifereri. Your suggestion is more neutral, certainly. Anyway, my thanks to yourself and to Nat for your work on this "anatta" entry. Best wishes to you both. From Tony. TonyMPNS 11:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not an "academic ploy". It's standard Mahayana practice from the time of the Lotus Sutra. It presented the early Buddhist teachings as merely skilful means. The Sandhinirmocana Sutra presented the emptiness teachings as merely skilful means. Throughout Mahayana history, each version describes all the others as merely skilful means. Perhaps Mahayanists have no right to complain if scholars do it back to them? How is anyone supposed to tell what the "real" Mahayana is? How is Wikipedia supposed to cope? Peter jackson ( talk) 12:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The new attempt at a compromise version is now inhabiting this article. If you wish to edit it further, please have at it.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 06:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
ī== A preliminary attempt at the Anatta in the Nikayas section==
Although the below is not the final version of my take on this section (it uses quotes to a some translation I do not know of...we need to discuss this somewhere else :-P; citations need to be more clearly made; I need to combine the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs or maybe separte them into two better paragraphs; and some extra examples): the essential structure is here, though. But more importantly, am I missing something here, or am I incorrect in something, or is the neutrality of this article in question? Sorry in advance for posting it here, but I would prefer getting comments on it before moving on... -- Lucifereri 12:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
“Whatever form, feelings, perceptions, experiences, or consciousness there is (the five aggregates), these he sees to be without permanence, as suffering, as ill, as a plague, a boil, a sting, a pain, an affliction, as foreign, as otherness, as empty (suññato), as Selfless (anattato). So he turns his mind away from these and gathers his mind/will within the realm of Immortality (amataya dhatuya). This is tranquility; this is that which is most excellent!” [MN 1.436]
The Buddhist term anatta (anatman in Sanskrit), which means "not-self," is considered one of the three seals of reality; the other two seals being anicca (impermanence) and dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). In the suttas, the co ncept of anatta generally refers to the nature of phenomena as being devoid of the Self (or soul) and explains how the five skandhas (or five aggregates: body, consciousness, feelings, perception, and volition) cannot in part or as a whole be seen as the Self. However, attempting to use anatta to describe Nibanna is controversial. One of the most cited quotes in scripture used to apply anatta to Nibanna is "Sabbe dhammá anattá" [Dhp. 277-279], which generally translates to "All dhammas are not-self". The controversy surrounds the meaning of the word dhamma: in some suttas the meaning of dhamma connotates both the five skandhas and Nibanna, while in other suttas the term dhamma is equivalent only to the five skandhas. Further complicating the matter is the fact that "Sabbe dhammá anattá" is perceeded by "Sabbe sankhárá aniccá" (All formations are impermanent) and "Sabbe sankhárá dukkhá" (All formations are suffering), where anicca and dukkha are explicity applied only to conditioned phenomena (sankhara) instead of dhamma. Thus, If dhamma's meaning includes Nibanna then that would imply Nibanna to be not-Self; if dhamma's meaning does not include Nibanna, only the five skandhas are not-Self (with no implication to what Nibanna is) [citation: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/nibban2.htm. This is a document by Ñánavíra Thera...I need a proper citation here]. Also, depending on the translation, certain suttas seem to imply that there truly is a Self that one awakens to in Nibanna. <need some examples here>. Finally, the suttas have the Buddha claiming that he neither taught the (extreme) view of eternalism nor the (extreme) view of nihilism (“Both formerly and now, I’ve never been a nihilist (vinayika), never been one who teaches the annihilation of a being, rather taught only the source of suffering, and its ending” [MN 1.140.). Thus, three possible interpretations of anatta emerge, each depending on how one interprets the Pali Suttas: there is no-Self one awakens to, there is a Self one awakens to, and the question of whether one awakens to a Self or not is inappropriate.
Also of importance, there exists a scriptural passage where the Buddha is asked by a layperson what the meaning of anatta: “At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: ‘Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?’ ‘Just this Radha, form is not the Soul (anatta), sensations are not the Soul (anatta), perceptions are not the Soul (anatta), assemblages are not the Soul (anatta), consciousness is not the Soul (anatta). Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled, what must be done has been done’” [Samyutta Nikaya 3.196]. -- Lucifereri 12:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
So a couple comments on this. First, I see "island" (as well as "lamp") being an acceptable translation for this word from PTS...I also read that dipa in Pali = dvipa in Sk not dipa in Sk (this is sort of claimed by Walshe...he says something to the effect that this is what it should be, but we are not completely sure...at least that is what I think he is saying). Can you explain further why it is suspect, or is the answer too technical (I am no Pali scholar)? (This is just a curiosity, since I do not see how using "island" or "lamp" changes the definition of the sentance either way). Anyways, for the second comment (DN 16 2.25-26 also appears basically in the same form at DN. 26), the text that follows DN 16 2.25-26 explains the methodology of viewing "himself(?)\Self(?) as a refuge" as none other than practicing the four foundations of Mindfulness. So it seems to mean that to view himself (or possibly Self) as a refuge is to be mindful of body, feelings, mind, and the so-called mind made objects (I am using Walshe's translation of DN). So I am finding it hard to see absurdities in either interpretation. Thanks ahead of time. --Lucifereri 00:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the illuminating analysis of that famous "Self as island" passage. What you say makes eminent sense to me. Yes, the Dhamma is equated with the Atta here, both in terms of grammatical structure and in terms of the content - where "and nothing else" (to be taken as one's island and refuge) applies equally to "Dhamma" and "Atta". They are clearly intimately linked, if not identical. In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, interestingly, this tradition is continued: the Buddha specifically says that Dharma is Atman. It would be absurd to suggest that at the end of his life (in the Pali sutta), after a lifetime of teaching that there is no Self and that this is the core of his Dhamma, the Buddha would then say "rely on Dhamma, which is basically your changing, impermanent skandhas". That type of "island" would soon get washed away by the flood of change! Also, in the Vinaya we read of how the Buddha tells a group of young men who are in search of a particular woman, "What is better for you: that you seek after this woman, or that you seek after the Self?" Clearly an interior reality of great value is being referenced here. Also, the idea that the Buddha has no Self and is not a "witness" (as is often asserted by the "conventionalists") is provably wrong, since during the actual experience of Awakening no less, what does he do? He WATCHES the play of samsara; he WATCHES and WITNESSES the dying of beings and their re-arising according to their karma; he WATCHES and WITNESSES all his own past lives (not the lives of someone else - not of dehumanised "causes and conditions", but of himself in other bodies); he WATCHES and WITNESSES the destruction of the negative factors which hinder the obtention of Awakening. There is very much a witness Self in operation here - although it is not the ordinary ego of daily experience. It is a Buddhic Self. And the argument that this is while the Buddha has his skandhas and so is not definitive does not hold water, since the Buddha says elsewhere in the Pali texts that even now, in his present embodiment, he cannot be determned or found. In other words: he is not those remaining skandhas! He is mysteriously beyond. But he is always a Seer. Hope this adds a little to the discussion. All best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 10:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm glad to see some progress with the anatta article! I think outlining the interpretive problems in dealing with it, and then describing all the possible ways the doctrine of anatta has been historically understood without pursuing the, in my opinion, fruitless question of which may have been the "original" position taught by the Buddha, is the best way to go. [User:Lotus]
Now to bring up some issues for consideration in this discussion happening on the talk page. [ Let me apologize in advance for my shaky Pāli, I'm still just a grad student, but I hope you won't hold that against me :-) ] I've been thinking about passages like "kacci pana tvaṃ bhikkhu attā sīlato na upavadatī'ti" at SN 35.75, where the Buddha asks a monk if he has any reason to find fault with himself with regard to virtue/moral conduct. The same kind of thing can be seen at AN 4.121, where, explaining attānuvādabhayaṃ, the Buddha describes a monk asking himself "kiñca taṃ yaṃ maṃ attā sīlato na upavadeyyā'ti." Also, at MN 65, we see the phrase: "Attāpi attānaṃ upavadati." Now, I've seen instances in the work of Caroline Rhys Davids where she translates such passages as having to do with a Self (big "S") blaming the naughty self (little "s") which has committed the misdeeds (specifically referring, if I remember correctly, to the explanation of "attādhipateyyaka" given in AN 3.40). A more "conventional" translation (as a side-note, I wonder whether "conventional"/ "conventionalist" has become a dirty word in this discussion?) would be something along the lines of "you find fault with yourself" "I might blame myself" "He censures himself." [User: Lotus]
However "atta" is to be taken here, it is obviously an important part of a monk's moral practice, one of the things that keeps him on track (one of four, according to the list at AN 4.121; one of three, according to AN 3.40). If it is indeed to be taken as "Self" with a capital "S", that would be a major doctrinal point, that a transcendent, pure, eternal, immanent (one of C.A.F. Rhys Davids' favorite words) "Self" is present and evaluating one's conduct here on earth at every step. One would expect copious amounts of religious writings on the topic, chapters and chapters even, explaining what would be a sublime and complicated teaching. And yet we find nothing, just a bunch of ambiguous passages where "atta" could be this, but it could also be that. [user:Lotus]
For those who think that such teachings were originally there but that later "monkish" Theravada editors simply edited it all out.... there's only so much editing a person, a school, a tradition can do... I really don't think there would be any way to coordinate such a massive re-editing campaign so that all texts in all of the Theravada world would have the Self cut out of them. I'm not denying that passages like the one you guys have been considering in the Mahāparinibānna Sutta can be read in a variety of different ways, but to call one reading the "original" or the only possible one, is an exercise in orthodoxy. In the attempt of uncovering the "original," it denounces all other readings as "deviations," "corruptions," "perversions." What about the possibility that these passages were purposefully left ambiguous from the very start? [user:Lotus]
And I think that I can reach at least a somewhat plausible reading of the atta-dīpo atta-saraṇo... passage. In a religion where self-dependence and self-reliance seem to be highly valued and praised (one of the epithets of the Buddha, after all, being sayambhū; also, consider the Buddha comparing a monk who has cast off the five fetters to a slave who has become "attādhīno" at DN 2, or the common description of someone becoming aparappaccayo satthusāsane), the idea that the Buddha would command monks to be self-reliant (but not Self-reliant) is definitely a possibility worth considering. If we view this in light of Occam's razor, this would probably be the easiest conclusion to come to, in that it wouldn't require one to make the grand leap of positing that centuries of Buddhist thinkers and commentators have gotten it all wrong (although, in general, Buddhist scholars seem to get a kick out of saying Buddhaghosa always gets it all wrong...I never was able to figure out why), or making some crass statement about "monkish editors" butchering texts. Still, razors aside, I would have to concede that the "pro-Atta" reading is a possible one, and a significant one, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject :-) Lotus 22:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what "as pertains" means in the article? I have a vague idea what the writer is getting at, but I am not sure. I do not think it is standard English and I would like to change it to something that is. Will check back later.
How do you write "anātman" or "anatta" in Devanagari? Le Anh-Huy 05:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The article mentions pain in passing, as one of the impermanent stimuli from which one can turn his mind away. This seems a very fundamental issue, as many people's belief systems regard pain as more fundamental than morality; for example, the Christian who accepts that something is wrong because you'll go to hell (in vulgar conception) if you do it. It also seems an issue that is experimentally testable and practically useful, as the alleviation of pain is a major industry.
I know next to nothing of Buddhism, but the description in this article rings true to me - while I certainly have not suffered the pains borne heroically by a large percentage of ordinary people, such pains as I have experienced have seemed to be ameliorated to a fair degree by taking time to consider the nature of pain and what meaning it actually has, and whether it is fundamental to the conscious experience or somehow an illusion or instinctive reaction external to the core of one's being.
I think that experts in Buddhism could better clarify things to the uninitiated by considering narrowly the phenomenon of pain and explaining, in simple terms, what mental methods can be used to reduce its impact in the short term. Wnt ( talk) 08:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is it Pali? Standard practice is to use Sanskrit for pan-Buddhist terms. Is it being implied that it's mainly Theravada? That may be so, as seems to be suggested above (Carmen Blacker told us the Japanese are not interested in this "Hinayana" doctrine), but that would have to be properly sourced. Peter jackson ( talk) 12:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
In contrast with the uncited material in this excuse for an article, "the 'tathagatagarbha'/Buddha nature does not represent a substantial self ('atman'); rather, it is a positive language and expression of 'sunyata' (emptiness) and represents the potentiality to realize Buddhahood through Buddhist practices." as Buddhist nun and PhD holder in Buddhist studies Heng-Ching Shih reports. Mitsube ( talk) 20:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is a problem all over wikipedia. Whenever there is mention of the Buddha's core message of anatta/sunyata it is always contradicted immediately after by a "but this isn't actually true." It's only in wikipedia that this is seen. Texts on Buddhism simply aren't like this. The confusing imbalance between Buddhism on the one hand and misinterpretation of some late non-Buddha vacana texts on the otherhand is worrisome. It reflects badly on wikipedia. Can it be fixed? I'm not sure. Mitsube ( talk) 05:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Hey...Um, sorry about that. I accidentally deleted parts of the article after trying to access source code for another program...ASCII can be annoying. Anyway, it won't happen again. Cheers!
I think we need a better intro to this page. I don't know much about anatta, but that is after reading the intro. I just doesn't seem very elucidating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thenavigator1 ( talk • contribs) 00:02, 29 January 2007 (UTC).
Are you incapable of admitting the namo-rupic self of the 5-khandhas? This person so-and-so (“Bob, Sue, John”) which is “composed of the 5 khandhas”-SN 3, is “anicca, dukkha, anatta”. The empirical self is not in question, not by myself, nor any nihilist, nor Atheist, or otherwise. Said self of flesh and blood is fated to the grave “all which is born must pass”- Gotama Digha. Said self is anatta, said self is a conglomeration.
Your refutation: "A Dictionary of Pali" by Margaret Cone: Attan (atta): [Sanskrit Atman], The self, the soul, as a permanent unchangeable, autonomous entity; p.70, Pali Text Society.
Buddhadatta Mahathera's Pali-English Dictionary -page 8..Atta' [attan]: SOUL
Might I point you to the Pali scholars V. Perniola and Wilhelm Geiger, both of whom defacto state the obvious, that being there are no reflexive pronouns in Pali.
Like most uneducated “Buddhists”, Random, you confuse the self with The Self. The most common passages in Buddhism are that “these aggregates (the empirical namo rupic self) are AN-ATTA (not-Self, or, if you desire, not-mySelf). “Whenever we deny something unreal, is it in reference to something real”[Br. Sutra III.2.22].
One can only conclude that you entirely blinded your illogical position as pertains secular Buddhism. Certainly so you make no doctrinal citations nor logic to support your claims.
Like most Theravadins, you want a double standard; wanting anatta to mean “no Soul”, but where Atta’ is called the “only refuge”, the “light within”, you want atta’ in said instances to merely mean oneself, a reflexive.
Gotama himself would be the Supreme Fool without equal to BOTH state that the empirical self is "anicca, dukkha, anatta" and also claim "oneself" is also the "only refuge"-Dn 2.154, and the "light within", as well as the "Charioteer"-J-1441.
Its often seen that you, without substantiation, claim myself not to be a Pali scholar; however this, like your other claims, are merely countless baseless conjectures. I have been reading and translating Pali for longer than you have set foot upon this Earth. Unless you back up your future claims with scriptural citations, you cannot be taken seriously in the least.
The unending Strawman fallacies you commit in claiming that scriptural citations presented are either: A: mere POV, or B: "bad translations" is a very commmon sophistic ploy to divulge yourself of any responsibility in intelligently responding. Its profane and base at best.
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
Are you forgetting: Dhammapada Att. 3.407 “’Sabbe dharmas are the five aggregates in meaning”. Your refuted.
“The light (joti) within one’s mind/will (citta) is the very Soul (attano)” [DN2-Att. 2.479]
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168] "Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind (suppatitthitacitto)”
[SN 1.26] Those followers absorbed, their minds (citta) flawless having assimilated the Soul; a charioteer (Soul) in control of the reigns, sages like them guard this supranormal-power!
[AN 2.6] "Him who is Lord of the mind (citta) possessed with supernormal faculties and quelled, that One is called 'fixed-in-the-Soul' (thitattoti)"
[AN 1.196] "With mind (citta) emancipated from ignorance…this designates the Soul is having become-Brahman."
2. Nowhere is there such a tradition as ‘Hinduism’ or ‘Brahmanism’ which are terms coined by Occidental scholars. The claim than the Buddha was ‘anti-Hindu’ or ‘anti-Brahman’ is unproven.
3. Buddha’s unconditioned Attâ (soul) had nothing to do with the five khandhas schema which are conditioned and mere attributes. Nowhere in any five khandha scheme is Attâ refuted. What is refuted is that the five khandhas are the Attâ (soul).
4. The lexical rule that Attâ is to be used strictly in a pronominal fashion, or simply should be used as a signifier for the finite body, is unwarranted.
5. The Buddha never considered Attâ to be (wrong view).
6. If the Buddha disbelieved in an Attâ (soul) why did he not deny the Attâ unambiguously?
7. Why didn’t the Buddha identify the Attâ (soul) with the physical body?
8. Why is the Attâ (soul), in the Atthakatha (commentaries) squarely equated with the Tathagata which is considered to be transcendent?
9. Why is there no strict philosophical treatment of the Attâ in Occidental literature? It seems odd that an historic study and not a philosophic study is the preferred treatment of the Attâ/anattâ dispute by Western scholars.
10. Modern Buddhist commentators are certainly wrong when they assert that a work bears a certain meaning which it does not seem to possess in a particular context. This is to say, being more precise, modern Buddhist commentators are off the mark when their interpretation does not close down certain textual ambiguities and contradictions.
11. By denying outright the soul, by default, the Theravadins and modern Buddhists imply that the five aggregates are ultimate. This of course is absurd. They have merely shifted Buddhism to empiricism by ignoring pro-soul statements. According to them, what is real is what makes sensory knowledge possible, namely, the five aggregates which, ironically, according to the canon, are suffering being synonymous with Mara the Evil One (the Buddhist devil)!
12. It begs the question to assume that the no-soul doctrine had been established at the beginning of the Buddha’s ministry and that Attâ (soul) was, in every respect, an abhorrent term. Still, for such a supposedly abhorrent term, there are countless positive instances of Attâ used throughout the Nikayas, especially used in compounds which are easily glossed over by a prejudicial translator. In meeting these instances, not surprisingly, these same prejudicial translators have erected a theory that Attâ is a reflexive pronoun. This is rather hard to prove since Pali has no reflexive pronouns.
13. Much later, the Theravadins were compelled to invent a two truth theory. With the numerous instances of Attâ (soul) being found in the canon, without any pejorative implications, they fabricated the Abhidhamma taxonomy which they claim was first delivered in heavens by the Buddha to the gods who could better understand a no-soul theory than mere humans!
14. In the Nikayas, hetrodox uses of soul are noted, which are called ‘attânudittha’. One main hetrodox use of soul is in the idea of Eternalism in which the soul is regarded in a physical sense which lives in perpetuity like the cosmos.
15. What is sometimes elaborated upon in the Nikayas is the heterodox uses of Attâ (soul)‹not its outright, categorical rejection.
16. That the Buddha denied the theories of Perpetualists and Annihilationism is true. But Mahavira, the Jain, denied both positions as well. But did Mahavira deny, altogether, the principle of a soul? No he did not. Neither did Gotama the Buddha.
17. The Buddha says many times that we are not to regard our Attâ (soul) as being connected with the five aggregates. - S.A. Buddhologist, Pali translator, Author of books on Buddhist Philosophy. User Attasarana
That you have no "hesitation" in calling me unqualified is not in question,…. This, however, is all you have, one claim after another, like rubber checks written on an empty bank account.
Since you cannot support your claims with either citations or logical abductive reasoning, one can only conclude your secular and Nihilistic position has left you as immobile.
Might I remind you that one cannot even be religious or spiritual and deny the Soul, only a secular Humanist, nothing more than a "Moral Atheist",… as such, any connection you claim to any spirituality (Religion) must be rejected outright.
To claim liberation (Vimutta) and deny that which obtains it is both illogical and adoctrinal at its very core. The only noun in suttana which is liberated is the citta (cittavimutta), as well as the only noun “freed of the 5-khandhas” [Nettippakarana 44] “The mind (citta) is cleansed of the five khandhas (pañcakkhandha)”, as well as the only noun = Nibbana and Buddhahood.
‘the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling’ means Nibbana”[MN2-Att. 4.68]
“The purification of one’s own mind/will (citta); this is the Doctrine of the Buddha” [DN 2.49]
“How is it that one is called a ‘Buddha’?...gnosis that the mind/will (citta) is purified (visuddham)…such is how one is deemed a ‘Buddha’.” [MN 2.144]
[MN 1.301] "What is samadhi (the culmination of the entire Aryan path) for? Samadhi, friend, is for making the mind (citta) sovereign."
[AN 1.282] “He gathers the citta inside the immortal realm”.
Citta is the only noun in Buddhist doctrine which is said to be the basis/medium for the recollection of past lives: “directs his will (citta) to the recollection of past lives” [DN 1.81].
The anatta taught in the Nikayas has merely relative value, it is not an absolute one. It does not say simply that the Soul (atta, Atman) has no reality at all, but that certain things (5 aggregates), with which the unlearned man identifies himself, are not the Soul (anatta) and that is why one should grow disgusted with them, become detached from them and be liberated. Since this kind of anatta does not negate the Soul as such, but denies Selfhood to those things that constitute the non-self (anatta), showing them thereby to be empty of any ultimate value and to be repudiated, instead of nullifying the atta’ (Soul/Atman) doctrine, it in fact compliments it.
It is of course true that the Buddha denied the existence of the mere empirical “self” in the very meaning of “my-self” (this person so-and-so, namo-rupa,an-atta), one might say in accordance the Buddha frequently speaks of this Self, or Spirit (mahapurisha), and nowhere more clearly than in the too often repeated formula 'na me so atta’, “This/these are not my Soul” (na me so atta’= anatta/anatman), excluding body (rupa) and the components of empirical consciousness (vinnana/ nama), a statement to which the words of Sankhara are perculiary apposite.
Well, Stephen Hodge, after finding Nat Krause didnt know what Roman indexing in Pali was, he admitted the following on his discussion page, so your conclusion was correct:
RC: "In fact such a search yields only 603 hits -- a much less impressive total". SH: Yes, I was quite surprised myself at the initial large number of hits and realized that I had stupidly over-estimated in the manner you suggest. Anyway, as you say, it is a matter or no consequence.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: "Now, I have not seen you display any knowledge of Pali, and I find it troubling that you dismiss Attasarana's poor (or wrong) citations and bad translations". SH: I presume you mean "have ignored" or "have not dismissed" Attasarana's efforts. I might need to review all the acres of text that he and you have compiled, but since Attasarana's quotes are obviously from other sources, though occasionally modified, I have not thought it very important to comment on those. Looking through your comments, as far as I can see, your main contentions seem to be a couple of typos ("namo" for "nāma") and ("tathatta" for "tathāgata"), the admittedly bizarre explanation of sarve dhammā anattā, a misquote from the Nettipakarana, and frequent objections to his lexical translations. It is sometimes a bit difficult to sort out who is asserting what because name/date stamp are frequently missing. Anyway, the first category is not really worthy of mention. The second example does rightly deal with something that is totally incoherent. Now, just to show you that I do read Pali reasonably well, sabbe dhammā anattā must by any normal grammatical reading be understood as "all dhammas are anatta" -- sabbe: masc.pl.nom of the adj sabba, dhammā: pl.nom. of the masc. noun dhammo, and anattā: masc.pl.nom. of the adj anatta. These are combined as follows sabbe qualifies dhammā, hence "all dhammas"; with the addition of the adj anattā here, one gets what is sometimes called a nominal or equational sentence, extremely common in Sanskrit, Pali (and Latin, Greek etc), where A = B. Also something not often mentioned is the word order: In Sanskrit -- and similarly in Pali, I believe -- the logical subject often follows the comment in nominal sentences, so probably this should actually be read as "Not self are all the dhammas" -- which is thought-provoking. I have not dealt here with your probably mistaken understanding of the import of that sentence -- some other time perhaps, Next, there is the misquote from the Nettipakarana. You are, of course, quite right, Attasarana cannot have read the entire passage.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
SH: No major disagreements so far. It is your third category of criticisms that is open to question -- the translation of individual lexical units. Here I shall first let you into a little secret. The majority of people who translate pre-modern/religious texts start out with a theory of meaning. They have consciously or unconsciously decided in advance what the text ought to say, especially if they are members of the same faith body that reveres the texts they are translating. This in the case of Pali texts, most translators, like Bhikkhu Bodhi, Maurice Walshe or Nanamoli, adopt and apply the prevailing Theravadin assumptions to their translations. You do the same thing when you speak of "atta" and say that "its normal meaning is simply as a reflexive pronoun "myself, himself, oneself", that "atta is merely "oneself"; the conventional concept of a unified person to which one can reflexively refer" or "it has grammatical function but no more". Of course, this is the nub of the matter. You have adopted the prevailing Theravadin interpretation as though it were ipso fact true. The use of any translations done on this basis are actually not NPOV. You have not established that "atta" when used in apparently affirmative contexts (those contexts which talk of a real self that contrasts to the fake self denied by the anatta methodology) is merely a reflexive pronoun. What you are actually saying is that the prevailing Theravadin interpretation is such and such. Thus you assume your preferred translation of the famous "make atta an island/lamp" etc must be correct, while it can very naturally, logically and grammatically be translated as "make the [real] self an island/lamp". Speaking on this vary same passage, Alex Wayman says, "We can hardly imagine ātman being put on a par with the Dharma if ātman means the self of delusion." (The Sravakabhumi Manuscript, Univ of California Press, 1961; p167). GHe is not the only scholar to advance that view. If you want many dozens of more example where atta cannot logically be dismissed as a mere pronoun, I suggest you look at J Perez-Remon's Self and Non-Self in Early Buddhism (Mouton 1980). -- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: Formally, Attasarana's contributions are not less of a disaster. SH: I think I have already made my position on these quite clear by now.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: You accept Attasarana's claims of his own scholarship at face value. SH: No, I don't actually. This whole discussion began when somebody vandalized his contribution with scant discussion or negotiation. I deplore this kind of behaviour. What was needed was for somebody to edit the article properly, not to trash it. That is the principle I was and am defending.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: It is curious that you demand credentials from me, but none from Attasarana; you condemn me for using an internet handle, but this doesn't bother you about Attasarana. SH: Attasarana, for better or worse, gives his website address. You and Yoji made frequent reference to this website to attack Attasarana -- as well as Dr Page's own site to attack him. Given that, are not the pair of you a trifle cowardly in not providing any tangible information whatsoever about yourselves anywhere ? All that Google shows up are your contributions to Wikipedia and a few other inconsequential items. Yoji Hajime cannot be googled because I don't know the kanji for his name.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
RC: [snip] opening myself up to hate mail, the entire spectrum of internet harassment, and other forms of attacks. SH: I wonder why ? I've never had that problem -- I just get mountains of spam.-- Stephen Hodge 21:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest this page now be archived. It has grown extremely long and as all heated discussion seems to have come to an end or parinibbuta'ed, would it not be constructive to draw a line under this phase of the Anatta Talk in readiness for the next as and when it may arise ? Interested parties will still be able to access this page for their edification and amusement -- Stephen Hodge 22:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
In essence, what you have stated as fact, is that the nihilists have run out of conjecture, opinions, secular dogma, complete lack of doctrinal claim substantiation, and khandha-praising humanism. This of course is a logical conclusion, and of certainly true. - User Attasarana.
I had the opportunity to check the references cited by Attasarana from Studies in the Origins of Buddhism by G. C. Pande. I find it somewhat worrisome that none of the quotations he has given are actually verbatim from the book, although, apart from the dates given, they are generally similar. I'm not sure what conclusion to take from this in terms of evaluating Attasarana's conclusions and his other citations. Below, I compare the quotations as he gave them on this talk page with equivalent passage in Pande's book.
Attasarana: "It follows that only the Nikayas go back to a period which predate the formation of Buddhist sects, which is important in discerning doctrinal matters" (pg. 12)
Pande: "It follows that the scriptures, which are mostly the Nikayas, go back to a period whent he sects were, in important doctrinal matters at least, as yet one." (pg. 12)
Attasarana: Only the Nikayas thusly, reflect the first and earliest period of the history of Buddhist thought when the Sangha was in doctrine at one." (pg. 13)
Pande: "The Nikayas, thus, appear to reflect the first and earliest period of the history of Buddhist thought when the Sangha was, in appearance at least, doctrinally one." (pg. 13)
Attasarana: “The vast majority of the Nikayas appear to have existed in record no later then 460 B.C." (pg. 14)
Pande: "The major portion of the Nikayas, thus, appears to have certainly existed in the 4th cent. B.C." (pg. 15)
I also checked the following quotations from Attasaran's preferred version of Nikaya Buddhism:
Attasarana: Also it is of great note that from the standpoint of doctrinal evolution, that the stage of thought as reflected in sectarian controversies is much later that the formation and recording of the Nikayas." (pg. 13)
Pande: "Also, it should be noted that from the standpoint of doctinal evolution, the stage of thought reflected in sectarian controversies is latger than that common in the Nikayas." (pg. 13)
Attasarana: "An examination of the Sanchi inscriptions [one of Buddha’s stupas], show that some time before the early 4rd century B.C. there was already a well established collection of Buddhist sermons of the Nikayas ." (pg. 14)
Pande: "An examination of the Bharhut and Sanchi inscriptions shows that 'some time before the second century B.C. there was already a collection of Buddhist texts, which was called the "Pitakas", and was divided into five "Nikayas"...'" (pg. 15; contains a quote from Maurice Winternitz)
Attasarana: "Since only the Nikayas make no note of the massive schisms within the Buddhist Sangha, this is further evidence that it is only the Nikayas themselves that predate all sectarian divisions within the Buddhist Sangha." (pg. 16)
Pande: "The fact that the Nikayas take but slight notice of the issues contested by the earliest sects certainly suggests that they had practically reached completion in the 1st century A.B. [After Buddha]" (pg. 16)
— Nat Krause( Talk!) 23:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Mr. Stephen Hodge, with all respect, youve flipped your bean in not stating the obvious (incapacity to see the forest for the trees it seems). Foremostly, the Abhidhamma is an ENTIRELY diff. variety of Pali. Those who can read Pali will tell you this fact. Its as far apart as Gheto English and ancient Scottish English,...even someone who cannot read Pali, can even see the diff.
Second, the Katthavatthu, the 1st book of the profane Abhidhamma beings with a heated debate between two sects of "buddhism" regarding gotamas position on the Atman. Buddhaghosa and his Sarvastivada (Theravada ancestors) henchmen use and continue to use the Abhidhamma ("Highest-Dhamma") to surplant the Nikayas. Even demons Pali tranlators such as Bhikkhu Bodhi admit outright many 100s of points of doctrine in the Nikayas that "contradict" the Abhidhamma position, namely SN 4.400, for instance, where Antarabhava (in-between existence [after death, but before reincarnation]) is mentioned, and of which Bhikkhu Bodhi admits to in the Nikayas and states in his Samyutta translation footnotes "this contradicts the position of Theravada orthodoxy".
The Abhidhamma is entirely like the Book of Mormon, a "new improved doctrine" used by later-day sects to surplant the original doctrine. For Theravada, if it doesnt pass thru the "Abhidhamma-filter" of dogmatic Nihilism, it just doesnt exist.
The demon-Theravada position of a "Tipitaka" is a lie propogated for so long and so often, the common dolt hasnt a clue that this is nothing more than a religious joke nearly 1700 years in the making. The "Pali Canon" doesnt exist except in the dogma of several schools of Buddhism anymore than Jesus taught the "book or Mormon" written by Joseph Smith in 1800's America. - User Attasarna.
I would also like to make a suggestion regarding this Anatta article. Whether they like it or not, all editors must comply with the Wiki concepts of NPOV, which involves, among other things, presenting objectively, and in a non-disparaging manner, explanations or views they strongly disagree with as individuals, as well as their own favoured positions. Accurate citations and references are also a sine qua non. Providing these principles are adhered to, then the two (or possibly three) positions that have been the focus of considerable acrimony reecently will be fairly represented. It is up to the Wiki user to make up his/her/its mind which, if any, is the most likely and coherent account.
To this end, I suggest interested parties look at the revised Hinayana article sandbox and the related discussion at Talk:Hinayana/Article Sandbox. I think something along those lines should be implemented in the case of "anatta/atman" and the related "atta/atman" articles. A more satisfactory, and hopefully better, result is likely through cooperation rather than through vituperation. Any takers ?-- Stephen Hodge 23:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It is deeply disappointing to see such personal bickering between buddhists. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.197.8.55 ( talk • contribs) .
As a reader interested in clarifying certain Buddhist concepts, I am disappointed with this article. In style it seems to me to be more argumentive than informative. But interestingly the form of its presentation reveals the flaw of its content.
Is not the author's insistence on demonstrating his version of a "Buddhist soul theory" use precisely the approach that the Buddha himself was negating? Specifically, using verbal arguments in an attempt to conceptualize what is ineffable? Does this not create greater ignorance by perpetuating a mental state that spawns meaningless generic propositions to be defended? Wouldn't mainstream Buddhists agree that futile arguments regarding the concept of soul are beside the point? Wouldn't they say our most important task would be an exhaustive personal examination of why as individuals we would need to advance such arguments in the first place?
It is said that the Buddha likened the mind that poses such questions to a man who when fatally wounded by an arrow insisted on knowing, before the arrow was removed, the name of the man that shot the arrow, how old he was, what tribe he was from, whether he was facing into or away from the sun, if seasoned wood was used to construct the arrow, whether that wood came from bark or senew, what season the wood was cut, on whose land the tree resided ...
Does not the author's insistence of using what he describes as interpretations based on original texts and rejection of later refinements and clarifications accepted by mainstream Buddhist thinkers such as the Dalai Lama remind one of the unbending religious fundamentalism that has become so prevalent as of late?
In my opinion, if the reader wants an intuitive realization of what constitutes clinging, whether it be what the author considers to be a soul or for that matter any other mental construct, all he or she needs to do is to read between the lines of this article. Furthermore, this article's argumentative and non-generalistic nature makes it unsuitable encyclopedic use. Those interested in an unbiased view of what mainstream Buddhism calls anatta would be better served looking somewhere else. Nakedzx 19:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
That the article on anatta should be such an ungodly mess is hardly surprising. But what I'd like to see done here, and what I've never seen done before, is to see this whole atta/anatta argument placed in its proper context. In reality, this argument has less to do with discussing Buddhist practice and dogma than it does with imagining a supposed "origin" of Buddhism and then fighting over what that origin must be, an hypostatized origin which by its very nature is not to be found in Buddhism as it was every actually practiced at any point in its history. This phenomenon of reconstructing "origins" is itself a late 19th century phenomenon, and by extension the whole atta/anatta argument is really working with concepts which can be traced back to Victorian Orientalists and what they wanted Buddhism to be. On the one hand, we have the rationalist camp of T.W. Rhy Davids who were working from the assumption that Buddhism was the "empirical" religion which threw away things which were not directly observable like souls and supreme deities. Anything that contradicted this assumption was termed obvious degeneration of the original teaching. On the other hand, you have the Upanishadic camp, people like Mrs. Rhys Davids and Edmund Holmes, who felt that Buddhism was really little more than Upanishads version 2.0, that everything in the Nikayas had to be translated as such, and that everything that went against this was obvious degeneration of the original teaching. Scholars in both camps had their own academic, psychological, and spiritual reasons (or should I say "hang-ups") which lead them to view Buddhism as they did. It's just as Stephen Hodge said in one of the above entries:
Indeed, it is also the case with the people on the other side of this argument who wish to see an Upanishadic Self in Buddhism. So, what do you do when everyone in this argument is seeing Buddhism only as they want to see it? And need I mention neither party giving a damn what practicing Buddhists, Eastern or Western, have to say about any of it (modern practitioners are just practicing a "corruption" of the "original" teaching, remember...) ?
I repeat, this argument has precious little to do with what Buddhism ever taught in its history, and has everything to do with what Victorian Orientalists wanted Buddhism to be. And what they wanted Buddhism to be was a dogmatic system only they had complete understanding of, and only they had complete access to, because, in reality, they were the ones who constructed it in the first place.
Stephen
My apologies for not signing. I am relatively new at this.
To the extent that I understand it, I find resonance it everything you have to say.
You have an interesting bio. I have a question that can be answered or treated rhetorically as you prefer. Do you meditate? I do. What brought me to the anatta page was a Google search from which I intended to find additional perspectives on perfecting my practice. Although I do not have your background or experience I have read more than a dozen books written or translated by authors that appear to be regarded as those that reflect the popularized version of Tibetan Buddhism. They include the Dalai Lama, Robert Thurman and numerous other Tibetan scholars that have translated the work of Candrakirti, Nagarjuna and others.
Does this soul/no-soul debate advance a greater understanding of the subject in question? My primary interest was not and is not the position of all participants. It is a greater understanding of what contemporary and ancient scholars call anatta.
Any suggestions on additional sources? Nakedzx 20:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Stephen, Tony
Thanks for your excellent observations and references. They are a reminder of what makes Wikipedia potentially great. In my practice, as in life, my goal is to develop a mind that assimilates and learns without formulating unfounded conclusions. Although I do not have sufficient knowledge of Buddhism to know whether its development parallels that of Christianity it does seem to me that its approach seems fundamentally different. That is, Buddhism seems to use a logic based, revise-whatever-does-not-work approach whereas popular representations of Christianity, at least in the U.S., seem rather dogmatic in comparison. I should also say, in an attempt to ward off further polarization, that when the dogma is removed there is much of value there. But I'm not sure how that comparison relates to difficulties in meditation practice. My current focus has been the development of equanimity which I would relate to non-conclusiveness, non-judgementalism or as you said Stephen, open-mindedness. In that effort I will look for whatever is available for Tillman Vetter and Dolpopa. In the meantime, don't consider this to be my final comments. Nakedzx 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't work out what people are arguing about. What is in despute above about?-- Timtak 22:25, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Attasarana is determined to have this page as *his* page, rather than a collaboratively written, consensus opinion piece with a npov as is the spirit and principle of wikipedia. His childish bias is evident in such NPOV defying antics as calling Theravada teaching as 'non-doctrinal'... it's so bad it's almost funny.
Personal conjecture cannot be tolerated when discussing doctrinal terms. -- Attasarana( talk)
The article entitled 'Anatta' contains inflammatory language that reflects all too clearly the personal passions of the writer. This does not belong in an encyclopedia article and should be confined to the discussion page.
The article entitled 'Anatta' is being used as a battleground for opposing points of view. Naturally, opposing points of view may be represented in an encyclopedia article, but unnecessary vehemence should and will be toned down, while retaining any factual information that may be present.
It is my intention to make the article easier to read by:
I am not a scholar of Buddhism, nor am I able to decipher Pali.
Furthermore I am not interested in canon.
Furthermore I am not unbiased
This may mean I shouldn’t have anything to do with this.
But I think I should.
I have been a Buddhist for most of my life, and have thought about Buddhist things for most of my life.
I came across this article because I had been listening to a monk who had visited our city recently. He had mentioned the term anatta. I was familiar with the term, however I was interested in both seeing a scholarly discussion on what it meant for me, and what it meant for others. Reading this article at first disturbed me. I am familiar with the concept of anatta presented in the article. It is not the only concept however. The article seemed to me to dismiss these other concepts as perhaps being 'un-Buddhist'. Buddhism as I find it is a very fragmented religion with significant deviation in thought to dismiss any one of them as 'un-Buddhist' is not helpful. The article only addresses one of these areas of thought. And that is central. It is not that it is biased, although I think it is, it is that it does not segment that bias and recognize it as such. As in 'the X school of thought, with whom I agree, says the following on the concept of no-self".
Although I am not a scholar I am very familiar with the argument(s)/debate(s) occurring here because I have had it with myself regularly. It is a source of suffering.
There are two things I would like to contribute to it.
1) The 'problem' that occurs when we describe things as not self and inadvertently indicate self I feel arises out of the way we think. We think in terms of self, and our language is spoken in terms of self. By having to describe self we place focus on self, we place focus on the duality of self-no self, which in turn creates self. In my opinion it is the question, 'what is self?', or 'what is not self?' that is at fault, not the Buddha’s answer, nor the modern Buddhist’s answer, which, given the pre-established focus provided by the self focused nature of the question, can only ever be half complete.
In my opinion the answer to the question “what is self?” can only be given in the negative because, in our minds and language, in our conception, this is the only part of the answer that can be correct. It appears to be an incomplete answer because of the nature of the question. To be a complete answer the Buddha, or the modern Buddhist or philosopher, would need to say what the self is, to which he can only answer, again, what it is not.
and as to the opposite question that then gets posed, 'is there then no self?' we are again posed with a similar difficulty in conception and language because to answer we must say that there 'is' a 'no self'. At which point we form a concept of a thing that is the no-self and create an identification with that thing, which creates self. Which is both illogical, and opposite to what I think Buddhism is about.
2) At the end of the last sentence I wanted to say 'the goal of Buddhism’ which brings me to the next issue. One 'problem' in Buddhism which arises from realizing, at the logical extreme, as noted in the article, that one cannot attain enlightenment and be pursuing the goal of attaining enlightenment at the same time. To have a goal is to be a thing which has a goal, to be a thing which has a goal is to not have become disillusioned of self, or of being a thing. Again I think this arises out of the focus we place on self in our minds and language. You cannot say, I am enlightened, and be enlightened, it is a contradiction. Our language does not let us say this logically. To say it logically would sound absurd and have no meaning; ' enlightened' it isn't even a sentence. However considering the focus that language/thought puts on self, in the context of that language/thought it cannot make sense if something is said which stops focusing in that way.
I would suggest, as one other poster here suggested, for the reader to look between the lines of the article and this conversation; that is self, that is suffering.
The more I come to understand, I think, the more I realize that, for me, Buddhism is very much something which must be 'observing', rather than 'something that I learn'.
No self IMO is the shifting of focus away from self. And even this still creates the self concept. I know it is incorrect even as I say it. Ultimately I think you must know what no-self means to know what no-self means. You must be enlightened to be enlightened. No-self no-self. Which is why it may be difficult to effectively communicate this concept in an encyclopedia.
Whether this has any place in an encyclopedia I will let others decide. To avoid being a hypocrite I will say that my thoughts have been strongly influenced by Theravada teaching, and then have progressed ( I imagine) from there, according to my own inquiry’s and experience into and on the subject and should be considered as coming from that context and bias.
18:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
I note that a tag has been placed on this "anatta" entry, urging deletion. I would oppose such deletion at this stage -until a better version has been produced (here in the discussion pages on a trial basis)and received substantial support from Wiki editors. I have made a move towards improving the current article by restoring the section on "Tathagatagarbha and non-Self", which was unjustifiably removed. Other persons may like to help shape and improve the rest of the article. But until a better version of the entire article has been written and offered for consideration, I would say it is best not to delete the present article as it now stands, but to keep it, so that others may make suitable amendments. Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 17:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I do no think this sentence should be included in this article. It seems to make it sound like Nibbana is a place which can contain the self (or even just a place). Nibbana in the Pali Suttas is the cessation of anger, greed, and delusion. Anyways, the line in Dhammapada 20 is very curious since the first two statements on reality specifically mention conditioned phenomena as transitory and then as sorrowful, but the third statement mentions dhammas as not-self. Look at ( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/nibban2.htm)...it argues that the word dhamma might not always include Nibbana, but also explicitly gives a passage where Nibanna is included in the meaning of dhamma. The rest of the article focuses on how Nibanna is not "not-Self" although the author does state that this is a "tentative opinion" (and not an assertion) and so forth. Getting back to the point, to state that this passage does not include Nibbana is to put a POV...since it is very odd to have a sequence of conditioned, conditioned, and then dhamma. Why not just use conditioned phenomena (sankhara)in place of dhamma if he meant it in that way (everything would be consistent then!). Probably the best way to look at Nibbana is not in the context of Self or not-Self, since it really does not refer to that argument. Actually AN 4.174 quite clearly states that one should not look at Nibbana in that perspective. So I want to remove this statement or have it at least changed to something like there is "debate" on whether the Pali Buddha ever designated Nirvana as "not-Self". I think that would be more NPOV. Tony? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucifereri ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
""Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. 1 Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Note 1. The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation. Secondly, the Commentary includes nibbana (unbinding) within the scope of the All described here — as a dhamma, or object of the intellect — even though there are many other discourses in the Canon specifically stating that nibbana lies beyond the range of the six senses and their objects. Sn 5.6, for instance, indicates that a person who has attained nibbana has gone beyond all phenomena (sabbe dhamma), and therefore cannot be described. MN 49 discusses a "consciousness without feature" (viññanam anidassanam) that does not partake of the "Allness of the All." Furthermore, the following discourse (SN 35.24) says that the "All" is to be abandoned. At no point does the Canon say that nibbana is to be abandoned. Nibbana follows on cessation (nirodha), which is to be realized. Once nibbana is realized, there are no further tasks to be done. Thus it seems more this discourse's discussion of "All" is meant to limit the use of the word "all" throughout the Buddha's teachings to the six sense spheres and their objects. As the following discourse shows, this would also include the consciousness, contact, and feelings connected with the sense spheres and their objects. Nibbana would lie outside of the word, "all." This would fit in with another point made several times in the Canon: that dispassion is the highest of all dhammas (Iti 90), while the arahant has gone beyond even dispassion (Sn 4.6; Sn 4.10). This raises the question, if the word "all" does not include nibbana, does that mean that one may infer from the statement, "all phenomena are not-self" that nibbana is self? The answer is no. As AN 4.174 states, to even ask if there is anything remaining or not remaining (or both, or neither) after the cessation of the six sense spheres is to differentiate what is by nature undifferentiated (or to complicate the uncomplicated — see the Introduction to MN 18). The range of differentiation goes only as far as the "All." Perceptions of self or not-self, which would count as differentiation, would not apply beyond the "All." When the cessation of the "All" is experienced, all differentiation is allayed."
If the central teaching of the Pali Buddha was that absolutely everything is non-Self and that nirvana too is non-Self, one might expect him to say so very clearly and explicitly, at least once in the whole of his recorded career!! But he never does. Strange. So I think my sentence should remain, as being factually accurate.At the very least, one can say that there is ambiguity here - and so I have added the word "unambiguously" to try to be more fair to your side of the argument. But my statement that the Buddha does not categorically, and in terms, assert that Nirvana is non-Self is in fact correct. Thanks, though, for your reasonable and sensible comments. All best wishes. Tony. TonyMPNS 09:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
--
So, I agree with this statement "The use of the term "all" clearly does not always mean truly "all" (including Nirvana)". But the problem I have is that in some cases (and this does occur in the Suttas) dhamma is referenced to include formations and Nibbana. The following example:
Yávatá bhikkhave dhammá sankhatá vá asankhatá vá, virágo tesam dhammánam aggam akkháyati, yadidam madanimmadano pipásavinayo álayasamuggháto vattúpacchedo tanhakkhayo virágo nirodho nibbánam. (Anguttara 4.34)
Whatever things (dhammá), monks, there are, formed or unformed, the topmost of those things is declared to be dispassion, that is to say, the ending of intoxication, the removal of thirst, the uprooting of yearning, the interruption of the round, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, extinction.
So the line from Dhammapada can be seen by both sides: one saying it refers to Nibanna, and the other saying no it does not. Those are two POVs then; furthermore, it is odd that the first two aspects of "Reality" (anicca and dukkha) are explicitly referenced to formations (sankhárás) while the third on not-self is to dhammas (dhammas include sankhárás), instead of the normal formations word (sankhárá). That change ("Sabbe sankhara ..., Sabbe sankhara ..., Sabbe dhamma ...) really confounds everything! The above statements by no way really prove that the term dhamma always includes Nibbana (look at the example you gave :)), but it does make one think about any statement concerning Nibanna. Anyways I suppose the problem I have then is that of ambiguity (as you noted) since it is not clear if he denied to Nibbana self or not-self. Furthermore, I might argue that having Nibbana be declared self or not-self is systematically incorrect with respect to the Pali Suttas. The problem is not all the POVs are represented. I do not think that the Buddha categorically affirmed self in Nibbana (actually his Noble Silence indicates he would not answer such questions).
So to conclude, I agree that that sentence is correct; I just do not think it is complete. I am going to edit it to also include that self (as well as not-self) is not categorically accepted in relation to Nibbana (AN 4.174)in an unambiguous and explicit way; if you do not agree please revert and discuss further :). Thanks for the insightful comments. Lucifereri 08:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi Tony, thanks for the pleasant conversation. I also changed "non-Self" to "not-Self". Also, in regards to the Mahayana Sutras, I was hoping you could point me to some good parts of the Tathagatha-garbha Sutras about atman; I also remember a quote in one of the sutras that states that Tathagatha-garbha is also sunyata (if you know of it I would like to the know its location). I am not very familiar with the Mahayana, so that is why I ask; I just want to learn more about the other schools. I doubt this is the appropriate place to ask for this information but I do not know how to pm on wiki (if that is even possible).
Thanks! Lucifereri 09:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
-- I thought it was necessary to add an observation in this section regarding the Anguttara chapter 4 sutta 34 [AN II.34] citation in support of the idea that Nibbana can be classed as a thing amongst sabbe dhammaa (for the purpose of saying it is anatta). Even this passage can very naturally be interpreted in a different way, with only the effort of going back to examine it in context, to go back and read the entire sutta. Put back into context, the thing that immediately becomes evident is that the statements using the word dhammaa, back in their original context, occur sandwiched between statements about the Buddha and about the Sangha, and that the sutta speaks about faith in each one. So the sutta exhorts us to have faith in the Buddha, two kinds of dhammaa (the eightfold path being the example of a "sankhata" dhamma, and Nibbana as a "asankhata" dhamma and the highest of either sankhata or asankhata dhammas), and the Sangha. So it becomes rather clear that we are talking about the triple refuge/triple gem, which makes it entirely viable here to read dhammaa here as dhammaa in the sense of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha; in other words, "teaching, norm, discipline, ideal." So when we say of the eightfold path here that it is a "sankhata dhamma," it is in reference to it being eightfold, of eight parts, remembering of course that sankhata has a basic meaning of "made up of more than one thing; complex, compounded". So: "Of teachings that are complex, the eightfold path is the highest," and likewise: "Of teachings both complex and simplex, dispassion (etc: Nibbana) is the highest." The passage continues: Ye bhikkhave dhamme pasannà, agge te pasannà. "Bhikkhus, those who have placed faith in this teaching have place faith in the highest." So it seems to add up that, rather than obliquely classifying Nibbana as a thing amongst "sabbe dhammaa," as it has for so long been cited as doing, the passage in question merely names Nibbana as one of the Buddha's teachings, and not suprisingly, the highest! Vacchagotta 04:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't quite wrap my brain around this sentence to fix it: "However, the Buddha did explicitly teach anattā - the non-existence of a intrinsic, lasting person or ‘soul’ - throughout his teaching career; not in a negative, nihilistic way of 'non-reality', but rather by showing 'why it is' and how to see it integrated positively in the law of kamma ~ cause and effect, directing the contemplative “When you see with detachment, All fabrications are inconstant…” naturally leads one to the wisdom that “...All fabrications are unsatisfactory…” ~ because of unawareness and desire resulting in self-identification with the changing events, realization of which leads the mind to release of self-identification through restrained observation of things ‘as they are’ ~ tathatá, leading to pure awareness, seeing that ~ “...All phenomena are not-self...” , the direct realization of the impossibility of an everlasting anything, self or witness." For one thing, it seems to be a rather impressively-sized run-on sentence. I'm not sure what all the ~ are supposed to mean. I'm unclear on how some of the ideas expressed fit together. I'm also unclear on why some phrases are include within 'single quotes'; for instance, what does the phrase "but rather by showing 'why it is'" mean other than simply "but rather by showing why it is"?
Everybody should take note of the fact that this article was completely rewritten by an anonymous editor on November 13. That's why it's not wikified. I wasn't very familiar with the older version, so I have no opinion as to which is better.— Nat Krause( Talk!) 05:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I was pleased with the progress being made by Tony Page and everyone working on this article, when lo and behold, the content has been reverted to the old one sided and highly problematic article. Be forewarned, attasarana and his advaita bunch consider this their territory and they are not likely to give it up easily.
An editor shifted the carefully balanced Introduction of this entry to the end of the article (an incongruous position for it). The article then had no Introduction. I think this was utterly unjustified. I have restored the Intro and deleted the "unorthodox understanding" heading, which was unnecessary. Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 13:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The run-on sentence in this section of the article has been reorganized. I hope this helps for this sections presentation and readability.
"However, the Buddha did explicitly teach anattā - the non-existence of a intrinsic, lasting person or ‘soul’ - throughout his teaching career"
Fallacy of composition A is not X, B,C,D,E are also not X, therefore X doesnt exist.
To 'teach anatta' (which the Upanishads do as well as Samkara) is no denial of X, to deny X of Phenomena an-X (anatta) is common via negativa in sutta. "there are no Elephants in Alaska, only fish, bears, and deer; therefore Elephants dont exist", just such a fallacy of composition. I suggest intelligent thought in the future before making unintelligent statements.
"anatta, anatta, what does anatta mean Lord? Just this, form is not the atman (anatta), neither too feelings, etc." - SN 3.196
22 nouns are called anatta in Sutta, nothing more; ABCDEF are an-atta. -- Attasarana( talk)
INTRO:> The Buddhist teaching of "anatta" / "anatman" (non atma, non Self, non Soul) refers to what Rawson (1991: p.11) states as "...meaning non-selfhood, the absence of limiting self-identity in people and things..."……
This intro is both commentarial, conjecture and also, for a newcomer, very clouded as to meaning. All religious claims as pertains translation/meaning must be sola sciptura, ie with substantiation in sutta, even if in the extreme, Mahayana sutra.
Massive changes to this text require A: Substantiation, B: doctrinal support C: logical consistency. -- Attasarana( talk)
Noticeably, there are many baseless claims in the article starting with “contrary to Vedanta…….Buddhism taught…..”. This is a baseless claim. Accuracy requires evidences with book and verse (preferably standard roman indexing) from Sutta and or Sutra. There are countless time the Atman is referred to = nicca (permanent), namely such as SN 1.169, j-1441, Udana 94, Itivuttaka 83. To make the baseless claim that Gotama only talked about the objective and empirical self (namo-rupa/ 5 khandhas) is without substantiation in Sutta.
No claims of accuracy can be made about the adjective anatta without evidences from sutta, and that cannot be diverged from UNLESS under secular subsections such as “Theravada (view on anatta)”, etc. -- Attasarana( talk)
You have commited several fallacies in your above baseless statement. Secondary sources, as you mention them, are never a reference for doctrinal terms and elaboration, Sola scriptura, only doctrinal citations are, never conjecture, opinions, nor your sectarian mahayana "secondary sources"
As per your claims that you "cannot trust my citations" you give no evidences for same, NOR are you capaable of same.
Your Nazi-like attempt at dominating buddhism on wikipedia is both a travesty and a sectarian agenda based upon your skewed non-doctrinal indoctrination. As for translations, most i use are not my own, however since i know defacto that you cannot read Pali, then your CLAIM that "X citation/translation is untrustworthy" is a impossible statement for you to make. No massive changes to the article can be permited unless you can show by doctrine, that X statement is wrong, and of this i know you cannot achieve.
Your massive re-writes of this passage cannot be permited since you both DO NOT, and obviously CAN NOT discuss any and all changes-- Attasarana( talk)
"unenlightened discussion" is ad hominem, and a baseless claim, Nat, you should be above this. Ive provided endless citation on anatta in Sutta to refute you, of this you cannot argue, only pontificate and play cyberlord with wikipedia with blatent disregard for the primary source as reference, ie suttana.
In the future, unless you can deny such passages as SN 3.195 and the like, you should refrain from altering wikipedia to fit your sectarian and conjecture-based views upon the term anatta and all other buddhist philosophical lexicon....
Buddhism differs from the “nothing-morist” (Skt. Nastika, Pali natthika) in affirming a spiritual nature that is not in any wise, but immeasurable, inconnumerable, infinite, and inaccessible to observation; and of which, therefore, empirical science can neither affirm nor deny the reality thereof of him who has ‘Gone to That[Brahman]” (tathatta). It is to the Spirit (Skt. Atman, Pali attan) as distinguished from oneself (namo-rupa)-i.e., whatever is phenomenal and formal (Skt. and Pali nama-rupa, and savinnana-kaya) “name and appearance”, and the “body with its consciousness”.
Sutta states explicitly that natthatta’ (no-Soul) = natthika (nihilism) = ucchedavada (Annihilationism). If you do hold the view that there is "no-Soul", you are a Natthika (nihilist); i.e. a Ucchedavadin.
"In distinct contrast to the Vedic theories of the ‘Ātman’ contemporary to his time, the Buddha rejected these in one clean sweep in the doctrine of anattā".
This claim in the massive edit the nihilists keep reposting (along with countless others like it) is not only a baseless claim/conjecture of sectarian origins, but also contradicted in Vedantic texts.
The Upanishads and Samkara use the term Anatman as well as buddhism. to say the above is an outrageous fallacy and error without measure.
Samkara (founder of Advaita Vedanta) in his core text, the Upadisa Sahasri uses the term anatman no less than 20 times. To say buddhism is in "contrast" to Vedanta is utterly nonsensical and without basis. Anatta rejected nothing except the denial of Selfhood in Phenomena.
ABCDEF not X, therefore X is denied is a gigantic fallacy being commmited here by the corruptors of the anatta article. It belies an affirmation of an ignorance of via negativa (neti neti) common to buddhism same as all of Vedanta. -- webmaster attan.com Attasarana( talk)
“The Buddha is a teacher of non-dualism (advayavadin [i.e. Advaita])”[Mahavyutpatti; 23: Divyavadaana. 95.13]
"Gotama is a VEDASOTTHIM (Sage of the Vedas)"- Patisambhidamagga
[DN 3.84] "The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'." (this passage also proves [from earlier context] that Brahma (god/s) is utterly diffferent than the word Brahman). [DN 1.249] “ I teach the way to the union with Brahman, I know the way to the supreme union with Brahman, and the path and means leading to Brahman, whereby the world of Brahman may be gained.”
[DN 1.248] ”all the peoples say that Gotama is the supreme teacher of the way leading to the Union with Brahman!” [3.646 Pat-Att.] “To have become Brahman [is the meaning of] Brahmabhuto.” [Atthakanipata-Att. 5.72] “To become Brahman is to become highest Svabhava (Self-nature).” [It 57] “Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata.” [SN 3.83] “Without taints, it meant ‘Become-Brahman’.” [SN 5.5] “The Aryan Eightfold Path is the designation for Brahmayana (path to Brahman).” [MN 1.341] “The Soul is having become Brahman.” [SN 4.117] "Found the ancient path leading to Brahman."
I don't know, being a little inexperienced on the subject but this article seems very POV on the issue of a soul in Buddhism. Consistently only one view is stated, which I would think is a problem with the amount of different interpretations on the issue. Also most of the basis for the one view comes from orthodoxy and tradition as supporting it and ruling out all others, which seems to run very opposite of the core tenants of Buddha. It just reeks of lacking objectivity. All the sources cite certain scholars who've taken to fully supporting their position, as well.
Baseless conjecture? I know for certain there are very many Buddhist scholars who happen to support the view of "no soul" in Buddhism, through brief research alone. The "intepretation" is "interpreting" the doctrines and writings themselves (and even if you don't agree with this view it's necessary in an unbiased encyclopedia to show this). Endless citations does not objectivity make, especially when the citations are in support of one view alone. The sources I referred to were George Grimm and Perez-Remon being cited (both known for a pro-soul view), your own uploaded image, and links to sites supporting this, not whatever scriptures that're being cited. The Brahmajala Sutta also states belief in a soul is wrong because it is because of clinging and longing.
"The Soul is the dearest beloved" [AN 4.97] "The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto" [KN Jatakapali 1441] "To be fixed in the Soul is to be flood crossed" [Mahavagga-Att. 2.692] "The Soul is Svabhava(Self-Nature)." [Maha’vagga-Att. 3.270] "The Soul is the refuge to be sought" [Suttanipata-Att. 1.129] --- Attasarana
1. Scholars like Davids, Conze, Humphrey, Schrader, Horner, Pande, Coomarswamy, Radhakrishnan, Sogen, Suzuki, Julius Evola, and Nakamura, just to name some important scholars, disagree with the claim that Buddha categorically denied an eternal (nicca) soul, whose teachings then, would be classified as Annihilationist and Materialist.
2. Nowhere is there such a tradition as ‘Hinduism’ or ‘Brahmanism’ which are terms coined by Occidental scholars. The claim than the Buddha was ‘anti-Hindu’ or ‘anti-Brahman’ is unproven.
3. Buddha’s unconditioned Attâ (soul) had nothing to do with the five khandhas schema which are conditioned and mere attributes. Nowhere in any five khandha scheme is Attâ refuted. What is refuted is that the five khandhas are the Attâ (soul).
4. The lexical rule that Attâ is to be used strictly in a pronominal fashion, or simply should be used as a signifier for the finite body, is unwarranted.
5. The Buddha never considered Attâ to be (wrong view).
6. If the Buddha disbelieved in an Attâ (soul) why did he not deny the Attâ unambiguously?
7. Why didn’t the Buddha identify the Attâ (soul) with the physical body?
8. Why is the Attâ (soul), in the Atthakatha (commentaries) squarely equated with the Tathagata which is considered to be transcendent?
9. Why is there no strict philosophical treatment of the Attâ in Occidental literature? It seems odd that an historic study and not a philosophic study is the preferred treatment of the Attâ/anattâ dispute by Western scholars.
10. Modern Buddhist commentators are certainly wrong when they assert that a work bears a certain meaning which it does not seem to possess in a particular context. This is to say, being more precise, modern Buddhist commentators are off the mark when their interpretation does not close down certain textual ambiguities and contradictions.
11. By denying outright the soul, by default, the Theravadins and modern Buddhists imply that the five aggregates are ultimate. This of course is absurd. They have merely shifted Buddhism to empiricism by ignoring pro-soul statements. According to them, what is real is what makes sensory knowledge possible, namely, the five aggregates which, ironically, according to the canon, are suffering being synonymous with Mara the Evil One (the Buddhist devil)!
12. It begs the question to assume that the no-soul doctrine had been established at the beginning of the Buddha’s ministry and that Attâ (soul) was, in every respect, an abhorrent term. Still, for such a supposedly abhorrent term, there are countless positive instances of Attâ used throughout the Nikayas, especially used in compounds which are easily glossed over by a prejudicial translator. In meeting these instances, not surprisingly, these same prejudicial translators have erected a theory that Attâ is a reflexive pronoun. This is rather hard to prove since sa and sayam are the reflexive pronouns of the Pali language, not Attâ.
13. Much later, the Theravadins were compelled to invent a two truth theory. With the numerous instances of Attâ (soul) being found in the canon, hardly any with pejorative implications, they fabricated the Abhidhamma taxonomy which they claim was first delivered in heavens by the Buddha to the gods who could better understand a no-soul theory than mere humans!
14. In the Nikayas, hetrodox uses of soul are noted, which are called ‘attânudittha’. One main hetrodox use of soul is in the idea of Perpetualism in which the soul is regarded in a physical sense which lives in perpetuity like the cosmos.
15. What is sometimes elaborated upon in the Nikayas is the heterodox uses of Attâ (soul)‹not its outright, categorical rejection.
16. That the Buddha denied the theories of Perpetualism and Annihilationism is true. But Mahavira, the Jain, denied both positions as well. But did Mahavira deny, altogether, the principle of a soul? No he did not. Neither did Gotama the Buddha.
17. The Buddha says many times that we are not to regard our Attâ (soul) as being connected with the five aggregates. webmaster attan.com--- Attasarana
Mahanidesapali 2.235 “niccato sukhato attatoti” Eternal bliss in the Soul Nettipakaranapali #86 “anicce niccanti, anattani attati” “What is anatta is impermanent, what is eternal is the Soul” Silakhandhavaggapali Att. 2.377 atta’nan niccameva “Soul is eternal”
Sassatavada is the Vaisesika school, comes from the word S’a’s (leaping, perpetual reoccurance). SN 2.20 “the experience and the experiencer were inseperable”, thereby creating a impossibility for disconjunction of causation.
sassatavada is the heresy that mere action (kamma) was Utmost, and that good rebirth/Heavens was the best one might achieve. As per: “The meritorious are REBORN in heavens (devaloka), the evil go to hell (niraya), but the WISE are nowhere reborn, theirs is emancipation (vimutta)"—Dhammapadanapali
You continue to insult yourself by making baseless claims, conjectures, fallacies and worst of all assuming your views or any others, superceeds doctrine, dont make that mistake again. For saving face, dont continue to belittle yourself by making unsubstantiated claims.--- Attasarana
You have said: "I do know however that a vocal segment of Buddhists contend that..." - this is called a 'BANDWAGGON FALLACY'. Your fallacy would also presume that since Muslims outnumber Buddhists 10,000 to 1, the "vocal segment", therefore its illogical to be a Buddhist.
The greatest fool in Buddhist doctrine was one who “saw Self (atman) in (mere) self (anatta)” (“anattani ca attati”) [AN 2.52], certainly one of the most common refrains in Buddhist sutta. Some of the greatest harbingers of the incapacity to differentiate the empirical (namo-rupic) self from The Self are most certainly the ‘Buddhists’ who never end in revelry of quoting Gotama to the effect that all ‘phenomena are Selfless (anattoti)’. The empirical self is = anatta, [SN 3.196], that very khandic (namo-rupic) self which modern ‘Buddhism’ alone acknowledges, but not that other Self which is the “light and refuge” [Dn 2.154].
What has Buddhism to say of the Self? "That's not my Self" (na me so atta); and the term "non Self-ishness" (anatta) are predicated of the world and all "things" (sabbe dhamma anatta; identical with the Brahmanical "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", (anatma hi martyah, [SB., II. 2. 2. 3]). [KN J-1441] “The Soul is the refuge that I have gone unto”. For anatta is not said of the Self/Soul but what it is not. There is never a ‘doctrine of no-Soul’, but a doctrine of what the Soul (The Self) is not (form is anatta, feelings are anatta, etc.). It cannot be denied that what is anatta is indeed the mere and petty self for [SN 3.196], and countless other passages, the mere self of psycho-physicality is = anatta = khandhas; that same self which the disciple is instructed to have his will (ctta) reject in the face of illumination and insight.
sabbe (accusative plural). Dhamma is not the direct object of this sentence but rather the subject. One cannot know the meaning of this three-word phrase, which occurs 17 times in Sutta without knowing sabba's meaning at Samyutta Nikaya book 4 verse 15. The sectarian dogma that has grown around this three-word phrase is not found nor can it be attributed to these passages based upon Sutta, context, nor SN 4.15; but only on much later nihilistic slanted commentary. Dhamma in this three word phrase, as Dhammapada #277 and #278 show, is interchangeable with sankha’ra’.:Completely in line with the Sabbe sutta at SN 4.15, sabbe is "‘the ‘all’". This is shown above and below at the Dhammapada that the 17 occurrences of “sabbe dhamma’ anatta'” are occasioned by an.kha'ra' (phenomena). Sabba’s meaning is not "‘all’" nor the adjective of this phrase, that is reserved for anatta'. It has been falsely believed by many that Dhamma is the direct object of the sentence given it location of the middle in the phrase, but this is incorrect since it is undeclined and sabba in its many other occurrences above show in fact that sabba is the crux of what is anatta, afflictions, and ablaze. One might think Khandhas (skhandas), are the conventional term for ‘the ‘all’, but in actu’all’y khandhas means "mass" or "collection" and do not always carry negative connotation in Sutta as it pertains to the "five khadhas". The "five heaps" is a much more accurate translation for khandha. Khandha is also used in context pertaining to Gotama Buddhas' teachings as khandhas, or "collection/mass of doctrine". Khandha implies "masses", whereas sabba implies "matter/ ‘the ‘all’", especi’all’y sensory related matter; sabba: Lat. solidus & soldus "solid". Both mass (khandha) and matter (sabba) are encompassed by theterm san.kha'ra' (phenomena). --- Attasarana
Of the Metaphysician, the common-fool (puthujjana) who knows “only of his self, is fated to most certainly die when his time comes”, but of that noble Aryan sage who has claimed the summit of wisdom and is “freed the will/nous (cittavimuttati)”, he is a “dead man walking”; meaning he has “died to that mere self and lives in The Self”. Such a person in quest for same is commanded “die before ye die!”, or that before physical death come and lest you still suffer the delusion of The Self to be this (foul) self of flesh and bone you have dispirited and disobjectified the will (Self-assimilation = Atman) in upon itself (samadhi, liberation).
The common fool who ruminates over immortality envisages the survival of the personality (of person so-and-so; Bob, Sue); confusing the empirical self of “flesh, urine, blood, bone, feces” [Dhm] with the Spirit (atman). This empirical self is in doubt by none, that very same self “headed to the grave” and which “goes in its own time”. The Metaphysician knows that any ‘self’ created in time must also perish in those same (“fires of”) time. [Dhm. 147] "Behold! That painted puppet this body, riddled with oozing sores, an erected façade. Diseased heap that fools fancy and swoon over”; of which Buddhism in no way quarrels with modern and corrupt ‘Buddhism’, that of which this very self, the temporal phenomena of that person so-and-so is equally as much ‘dukkha, anicca, and anatta”.
The ‘reflexive position’ taken by illogical modern ‘Buddhism’ proclaims the Pali term Attan (Skt. Atman, Self) to be merely a reflexive term meaning “oneself, himself, herself”, however the reflexive and empirical mere self is, regardless of translation, “anatta” i.e. “na me so atta” (not my Soul), or also “eso khandhassa na me so atta” (these aggregates [forms, feelings, perceptions, experiences, consciousness =mere self] are no the Self, the Soul). As pertains the reflexive self, of who proclaim “myself, himself, herself” we are referring to “that person so-and-so (Larry, Sue, etc.)”, the empirical and psycho-physical (namo-rupa) self of blood and sinew which is “doomed to fall into the grave at long last”, the very same self the poetic dead are said to cry out to the living “what you are, we (the dead) once were,. what we are you shall be!”. Even more illogical is the double standard of commentarialist and sectarian ‘Buddhists’ who desire anatta to mean ‘no-Soul’ as well as atta to mean simply ‘myself, himself, herself’; wherein illogically atta in the adjective anatta is, to their ignorant minds = Soul (‘no-soul’), but atta in standalone = ‘myself’. As illogical an end result, modern Buddhism has proclaimed atta = anatta! Its quite hard to fathom any position more senseless than this, however this is one of the countless reasons modern ‘Buddhism’ is illogical without end. However doctrinally and logically so, what IS anatta (the five psycho-physical aggregates of the mere self) are indeed ‘myself’, in so meaning the mortal (mata) self composed of the bodily humors which is fated to death. That mere self is never implied nor meant when Buddhism speaks of immortality and the path leading to same (amatagamimagga) [SN 5.9], of which “the body cannot pass that gate to fare beyond,..only the Soul (The Self)” - Homer
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.009.bodh.html? -- Lucifereri
The great dictum of the Upanishads is “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course, the Atman or Spirit, Sanctus Spiritus, the Greek pneuma; this Atman is the spiritual essence, impartite whether transcendent or immanent; and however many and various directions to which it may extend or from which it may withdraw, it is the unmoved mover in both intransitive and transitive senses. It lends itself to all modalities of being but never itself becomes anyone or anything. That than which all else is vexation- That thou art. “That”, in other words, is Brahman, or Godhead in the general sense of Logos or Being, considered as the universal source of all Being. That which is “in” him as the finite (1) in the infinite (2-infinity, i.e. phenomena, namo-rupa), though not a “part” of him.
Referring back to "of those who are mortal, there is no Self/Soul", the common fool doesn’t have an atman as such that we might agree with heretical modern ‘Buddhism’ which denies Selfhood in the absolute; for those same peoples who, in the grand bloom of ignorance, accept the foul self and deny the Great-Self, they are objectively (self-khandhas) assured that no underlying Subject (The Self) is immanent, or transcendent. Just as a man might have gold on his land, undiscovered and unknown, he has no gold, no wealth, even though it be his by measure of being present upon his very lands; so too those common fools (puthujjana), the ‘Buddhists’ who are certain and proud in their ignorance that this temporal personality, this self, is all there is. Theravada, in great illogic, goes one further to say that Gotama’s denial of nihilism (ucchedavada) was aimed at meaning that even the empirical self, since it itself was merely a composite and temporal construct, had no existence to be annihilated; thereby subverting the doctrinal ‘heresy of nihilism’ to be placed upon the view of denying the empirical self rather than The Self, the Atman. Of course, to ‘have an atman’ implies possession, and certainly so the immanent Subject, The Self, is a possession by nothing and by nobody; in this too the wiseman agrees with the common materialist who ignorantly proclaims “I don’t have an atman/Soul”, most certainly that foul self does not ‘have’ The Self any more so than that object which is illuminated from afar ‘has (of itself) light’.
“There are two within us” [Plato’s Republic 439d, 604b]; in the expression of “self-control” implying that there is one that controls and the other (self) subject to control, for we know that “nothing acts upon itself”; for the one self “becomes”, and the other self “is”. “The ‘fair’ self (kalyanam attanam)…the ‘foul’ self (papam attanam)” [AN 1.149]; i.e. the “great Self” (mahatta) and the “petty” (appatumo) [AN 1.249], or that “self whose Lord is the Self” [Dhm 380]. In that modern so-called Buddhism has denied The Self, it has constructed an illogical impossibility in thereby positing empirical purity of which the doctrine of Buddhism itself, not to mention logic alone most heartily protests, for there is no possibility of empirical purity within the teachings of Buddhism.
It is of course true that the Buddha denied the existence of the mere empirical “self” in the very meaning of “my-self” (this person so-and-so, namo-rupa, an-atta), one might say in accordance with the command ‘denegat seipsum, [Mark VII.34]; but this is not what modern so-called Buddhism means to say, or are understood by their readers to say; what they mean to say is that the Buddha denied the immortal (amata), the unborn (ajata) and Supreme-Self (mahatta’) of the Upanishads. And that is palpably false, for he frequently speaks of this Self, or Spirit (mahapurisha), and nowhere more clearly than in the too often repeated formula 'na me so atta’, “This/these are not my Soul” (na me so atta’= anatta/anatman), excluding body (rupa) and the components of empirical consciousness (vinnana/ nama). "What of this short-lived body which is clung to by means of craving? There is nothing in it to say ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘me’." [MN 1.185]. "What do you suppose, followers, if people were carrying off into the Jeta grove bunches of sticks, grasses, branches, and leaves and did with them as they wished or burned them up, would it occur to you: These people are carrying us off, are doing as they please with us, and are burning us? No, indeed not Lord. And how so? Because Lord, none of that is our Soul." [MN 1.141]. “What do you think, is form lasting or impermanent? Impermanent Gotama. Is that which is impermanent suffering or blissful? Indeed its suffering Gotama. Is that which is impermanent and suffering and subject to perpetual change; is it fit to declare of such things ‘this is mine, this is what I am, this is my Soul? Indeed not Gotama!” [MN 1.232].
"What do you think, monks: if people were to carry away the grass, sticks, branches and leaves in this Jeta Grove, or burnt them or did with them what they pleased, would you think: These people carry us away, or burn us, or do with us as they please?" — "No, Lord." — "Why not?" Because, Lord, that is neither our self nor the property of our self." — "So, too, monks, give up what is not yours! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. What is it that is not yours? Corporeality... feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness are not yours. Give them up! Your giving them up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness." -- Lucifereri
Buddhism’s command, same as that of Plotinus and the Pythagoreans before him, was the utter disobjectification of the will by inversion of that primordial attribute which is uncaused and without beginning (attribute/avijja). For only the wise and illuminated fully know the two selves, differentiate the two by means of wisdom with which they are endowed, and certainly do not see “Self in what is (mere) self (anatta)”. webmaster attan.com -- Attasarana( talk)
This article will be pretty fun to rewrite\revert. This is full of POVs and uncited meanings. Webpages should not be cited for this (unless it has been accademically reviewed in a PROPER way...usually books are better, which I see none of). This is also disturbing because the view this article portrays is not a majority view. Once I rewrite this article (whenever I get around to it), it will have citations to sites like accesstoinsight or to Bhikkhu Bodhi's translations of the Pali scriptures. If u want to use ur own please, show clearly where they come from (I do not want to search a web page for the translations, just a link to the place called translated suttas or whatever). Have any of those translations been peer-reviewed?
Your position that Buddhism is Empiricist psychology instead of a liberation ontology of a class of fine Metaphysics in the Vedantic tradition is without support in the Nikayas. That you suffer the delusion that the Nikayas 'belong' to the Theravada is both illogical and not even a 'consensus' view by the vast majority of Buddhologists. --- Attasarana
No-Soul: NATTHATTA'.(literally “there is not/no[nattha]+atta’[Soul]) has only five occurrences (all at SN 4.400) anywhere in Sutta/Atthakatha. Anatta’ is not “no-Soul”, but natthatta’ which is deemed, by Gotama, to be ucchedavada annihilationist heresy.
[SN 3.196] Anatta = 5 khandhas = mere self; nothing more.
[SN 3.196] At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: “Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?” “Just this Radha, form is not the Soul, sensations are not the Soul, perceptions are not the Soul, assemblages are not the Soul, consciousness is not the Soul. Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled.” --webmaster attan.com Attasarana( talk)
Attasarana, gives us the translation of his moniker as “The Soul is Refuge”; is merely a back-read atmavādic translation of a line from Dīgha Nikaya 16 2.25-26 ‘… bhikkhu attadīpo viharati attasaraṇo…’ “Monks, abide as islands unto yourselves, as a refuge unto yourselves…” - ‘atta’ in this case read as a reflexive pronoun. - - His name is Ken Lee Wheeler. He has published hack literature on Buddhist topics under the penname Shakya Aryanatta and divides up his time otherwise in Yahoo Buddhism chat rooms as ancientbuddhism, where he and his sycophant followers harass and propagate his schlock translations from the Pali Canon - he is infamous for bombarding the private mailboxes of his critics with unsolicited obnoxious messages and calls private phones to leave unsolicited obnoxious voice messages to those dislikes.
- As anyone here can see, he is easy enough to refute, although he will never accept correction when valid translations and academics are presented. - - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.95.203.235 ( talk) 07:12, 24 February 2007 (UTC).
I need a good reason why I should not take this website link down. First of all, who translated the suttas they quote in the page (with this information, I can then look up academic info on the source, ie, critiques, ideology of the translator, how respected the transalator in regards to his peers, and such...the reason for this is nobody was faulty translations :))? Second I have a problem with the almost propagandist view it puts up on "Soul" in Buddhism. Quotes on the page are used many times out of context...example: the quote about union with bhramha (NOT bhraman as the web page uses...there really is no reference to a neuter bhraman in Pali Buddhism that I know of...there can be, please point it out) was given to an individual who asked how to achieve union with bhrama. This was explained by attaining the jhanas...later on (in a different sutta), that same monk lets go of that jhana to attain Nibanna, which is achieved through Vipassanna! Union with bhrama here means being born in the bhrama world, and in another sutta bhrama is denied the charactersitic of the all-powerful god head. Being the largest website makes no difference at all and having a label such as "original Buddhism" is so mis-leading...this is not a majority viewpoint on original Buddhism. To talk about "original Buddhism" one must at least talk about the various schools that existed after the Parinibanna of the Buddha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucifereri ( talk • contribs).
contribs) 03:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC).
Best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 23:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, for Mahayana, I am sure there might be positive teachings...for Theravada I am not so sure :-P. -- Lucifereri 03:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Written to goethean by wiki moderator: Hi there. When you're in a content dispute with other editors, please don't write "rv v" as your edit summary. This implies that the other users' edits are vandalism. Content disputes and vandalism are two different things, and calling another user's edits vandalism is uncivil. Thanks. Heimstern Läufer 05:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Luciferereri, I see you are tempted to rewrite this article. I look forward to reading your endeavour with interest. Note that "discussions" about this page have been going on for a very long time without resolution. I suggest, if you have not done so already, that you read all the previous messages, including the archived ones.
Given the nature of the topic of the article, I think it will be very difficult ever to reach a consensus over its contents. One problem that I note in these discussions is a confusion between what the Buddha may or may not have taught and what later Buddhist schools say he taught. There is potentially a very large chasm between the two.
The first step would be to present a reconstruction of what the Buddha probably DID actually teach -- along the lines of Tillman Vetter's well known study of early Buddhist teachings and practices. Much of this confirms Attasarana's basic position. Thus, there are now a number of recent bona fide scholars who seem willing to concede that there is no evidence in the Pali Nikāyas that the Buddha actually denied the existence of a Self (ātman), though this understanding has failed to percolate down to the general Wiki type of editor. Vetter suggests that the Buddha himself only critiqued the pudgala type of concept or the sat-kāya view. At a later stage, the subtle differences were lost and, with the rise of the Pudgalavādins within Buddhism, denial of the existence of the Self was introduced as a defensive knee-jerk reaction. It should be noted, in passing, that the stratified nature of the Nikayas is well-known and this should be taken into account -- much of what is attributed to the Buddha anyway was probably never taught by him, even such hoary favourites as the pratītya-samutpāda, the five skandhas etc etc, counter-intuitive though this may seem. You might also like to look up Lambert Schmithausen's paper on the two approaches within early Buddhism, those based on dhyana and on prajna without dhyana respectively. I would suggest that the originators of many cherished Buddhist tenets were the pro-prajna monks who never bothered to practice dhyana -- there is much more to this, but cannot go into it right now.
So, a sensible way to construct this article would be to present what the Buddha himself may or may not have taught about a Self -- taking into consideration the various synonyms that occur on occasion such as citta and vijñāna. But this presentation should be based solely on the scriptural evidence -- WITHOUT the interpretative use of the atthakathas etc. But this is where Attasarana's problem lies. BhB's translation that you think are so praiseworthy rely heavily on the atthakathas -- thus presenting, by definition, the Theravadin viewpoint. There is no reason why we should accept atthakatha explanations as ipso facto true and reliable. Thus, I mention in passing, I have just finished a translation of the huge Vastu-samgraha by Asanga contained within the Yogacara-bhumi-shastra. This is a summary commentary on most of the Samyukta-āgama. While going through it, I was surprised to find that there virtually no points of exegetical agreement between it and the Pali atthakatha. This shows that within Indian Buddhism there was a wide range of interpretational positions.
If Attasarana feels that he can demonstrate that BhB's translations, for example, are inaccurate or misleading, then what is he to do to satisfy you ? I think he gives the Pali text and location of most of his quotes, so the really interested can look them up elsewhere. Interestingly, there does not seem to be a a hard and fast Wiki rule about sourcing translations. I believe that the relevent guideline merely says that a recognized, published version is to be preferred. You say that you have found glowing praise for BhB's translations -- would the monastery you mention happen to be Theravadin ?
So, after the part of the article dealing with what the Buddha may or may not have actually taught -- with all the proof quotes one might want, then the article should move onto the anatta position of the various Buddhist schools, which should be more straightforward and less contentious. But here again a note of caution. I assume that you think that the predominant position throughout Buddhist history was "no self", but you would be wrong there. The school of Buddhism thought to have had the largest number of adherents by a long chalk was the Sammitiya which espoused Pudgalavada. It is merely a historical accident that their literature has not survived, thus distorting the picture.
Anyway, that's enough for the moment.-- Stephen Hodge 19:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
A.P. Buddhadatta, the well known Sinhalese Pali scholar and head of the Aggarama at Ambalangoda in Ceylon (appointed as the Agga-Mahapandita at the Council of Rangoon) wrote on 4th March 1947 concerning the English edition of George Grimm's main work in a letter to his daughter: " I read that book [DOCTRINE OF THE BUDDHA by George Grimm] , and (found it to be) as you have stated in your letter that ‘he (Grimm) recovered of the old genuine doctrine of the Buddha which had been submerged'. When we (Theravada) read our Pali texts (Abhidhamma) and commentaries (Buddhaghosa, Vishudhamagga), we get the idea that Buddhism is a sort of Nihilism….Thus I was puzzled for a long time to understand the true meaning of Buddhism though I was born a Buddhist. Many peoples do not go so far in these matters (of doctrine)."[Doctrine of the Buddha, ISBN 81-208-1194-1; publ. Montilal Banarsidass publishers. First Edition: Berlin, 1958; reprint 1999. Preface, page 9]. - Attasarana
attasarana, That is a typical specious argument of yours. The Buddha explicitly denied the existence of an eternal self throughout the Nikāyas.
"Venerable Sir, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent, Venerable Sir, is there right view?" ... “The world, Kaccāna, is usually exerted and inclined to being bound to attachments; its things to be identified with and preferences. Although such a one [posessed of Right-View] does not identify with or make determinations of these attachments; its things to be identified with and preferences, nor does he take up the thought “I have a ‘Self’”(na upādiyati nādhiṭṭhāti– ‘attā me’ti). Of this there is no waver or doubt - ‘It is only the arising of affliction that comes into existence; it is only the decline of affliction that is extinguished.’ Knowledge of this does not depend on others. It is to this extent, Kaccāna, that there is right view. SN. 2.15
Please note, Sephen and Tony, that Attasarana is now adding arguments to the middle of the doc above some points others made that never meant to address that insertion. This thread will be pretty hard to read moving forward. -- Lucifereri 11:39, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi Attasarana, why not go back to the "Two Selves in Buddhism" topic and finish the argument there...this thread is a mess, at least that was in much better condition, and you failed to respond to the arguments I presented. Thanks! -- Lucifereri 12:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
HELLO? Does anyone have a copy of this (apprently horrible and expensive) book: http://www.amazon.com/Buddhisms-Highest-Revelation-Shakya-Aryanatta/dp/0971254117/sr=1-1/qid=1172345722/ref=sr_1_1/104-9656467-2115919?ie=UTF8&s=books ? I would like to see if any of the above (which I did not really bother reading, except for a couple of sentances) came from it... Thanks. -- Lucifereri 19:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
“How is it that one is called a ‘Buddha’?...gnosis that the mind/will (citta) is purified (visuddham)…such is how one is deemed a ‘Buddha’.” [MN 2.144] - Attasarana
“The purification of one’s own mind/will (citta); this is the Doctrine of the Buddha” [DN 2.49]
“This is immortality, that being the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling (after anything)” [MN 2.265]
“This said: ‘the liberated mind/will (citta) which does not cling’ means Nibbana”[MN2-Att. 4.68]
"Steadfast-in-the-Soul (thitattoti) means one is supremely-fixed within the mind/will (citta)”[Silakkhandhavagga-Att. 1.168]
“'The purification of one’s own mind/will', this means the light (joti) within one’s mind/will (citta) is the very Soul(attano)” [DN2-Att. 2.479] - Attasarana
[DN 2.157] “No longer with (subsists by) in-breath nor out-breath, so is him (Gotama) who is steadfast in mind (citta), inherently quelled from all desires the mighty sage has passed beyond. With mind (citta) limitless (Brahman) he no longer bears sensations; illumined and unbound (nibbana), his mind (citta) is definitely (ahu) liberated.” The perfect (anasava) mind (citta) being = parinirvana: [SN 3.45] “The mind (citta) being so liberated and arisen from defilements, one is fixed in the Soul as liberation, one is quelled in fixation upon the Soul. Quelled in the Soul one is unshakable. So being unshakable, the very Soul is thoroughly unbound (parinirvana).”- Attasarana
I am new here to Buddhist discussions, but I must say I am heartily dismayed at the false representation that Buddhism had at some point given dismissal to the atman, or the purisha as common to the sanata dharma. I grew up being taught and instructed in the equal representation of Advaita Vedantic interpretations of the Upanishads and that Buddhism found no fault in same.
I have reinstated the correct scriptural position on anatman in the main page. I read that discussion is of paramount importance when doing so, therein I am making the proposition for myself to discuss anatman here in talk, as I am sure I can make reasonable positions from my spiritual education in the teachings of Buddhism that Gautama Shakyamuni had not denied the atman in his dharma. Respectfully signed, Dr.Sanjay Krishnan, professor of Philosophy @ C.D.U. Dr.SanjayKrishnan 21:23, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Attasarana, gives us the translation of his moniker as “The Soul is Refuge”; is merely a back-read atmavādic translation of a line from Dīgha Nikaya 16 2.25-26 ‘… bhikkhu attadīpo viharati attasaraṇo…’ “Monks, abide as islands unto yourselves, as a refuge unto yourselves…” - ‘atta’ in this case read as a reflexive pronoun.
Please do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia. Your edits could be considered vandalism, and they have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.
His name is . He has published hack literature on Buddhist topics under the penname ,,,,and divides up his time otherwise in Yahoo Buddhism chat rooms as ancientbuddhism, where he and his XXX followers harass and propagate his XXXXX translations from the Pali Canon - he is infamous for bombarding the XXXXX of his critics with XXXXXX and XXXXXX to those dislikes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/69.95.62.153
Please do not add unhelpful and non-constructive information to Wikipedia. Your edits could be considered vandalism, and they have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.
"Once again, you have shown that you have no interest in being neutral." "You clearly don't know what you are talking about." "This is just typical for you and your ilk." are all considered forms of personal attacks) from Attasarana calling others arguments "pathetic" and "laughable" and using "ilk", too, to my saying that his arguments are not neutral, and even the mention of that book. So I think this is just unfair to single out one individual when there are multiple people who are doing it to varying degrees. Thanks. -- Lucifereri 07:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
13:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
This will continue until attasarana is removed and banned from here as he has been on other respectable discussion boards. Thank You!
I have taken the first step to get this article into shape. I have just re-arranged the component sections into a more logical sequence. The next task that needs to be done is to reduce the verbosity of the very long "Anatman in the Nikayas" section. It overwhelms the reader with too much information that comes across as polemical in intent -- plus it introduces irrelevent material that might be more appropriate for an essay rather than an encyclopaedia article. I personally might not be able to do this immediately as I am due to have an eye operation in a couple of days :( However, if nobody else has done so by the time I can work again, I'll have a go.-- Stephen Hodge 20:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Stephen Hodge, please read carefully the following website, owned and maintained by Attasarana, and tell us if this is the POV of Buddhism wikipedia wants here.
http://www.attan.com/start.html
The numbering system of the sutta references in this section are unknown. Also the translations and interpretations are more than a little suspect. I will try to help clear this up if I have time.
Below are two references on numbering systems in use:
http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/abbrev.html
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html
[User:70.108.148.28|70.108.148.28]
The citation system is not at all unknown. It's the PTS Roman indexing system, which is used widely, preferred for its precision and simplicity. It refers to the volume and page number of the PTS Roman Pali edition such that, for example MN 2.265 refers to the PTS Romanized Pali Majjhima Nikaya Volume 2, page 265. It should be noted that these numbers refer to page numbers in the Pali, NOT to the page numbers in the translation as Nat mistakenly said. For example, the reference to the Deathless (amata) that occurs at MN 2.265 cited in the article ends up on 873 of the PTS english-language volume. So in PTS English translations, Romanized Pali page numbers occur in brackets in the text (e.g."What exists, [265] what has come to be, that I am abandoning.'"--marks the start of page 265 of the corresponding Pali text, but occurs on page 872 of the translation). In the PTS translations, the volume and page numbers of the corresponding Romanized Pali generally also appear in the header of each page of translated text for quick reference.
So far as I could tell, Attasarana's denial was not a denial of using the PTS Roman indexing. He was just insisting that the second numbers involved referred to verse numbers rather than page numbers. While this is strictly incorrect, I suspect that he insisted it to distinguish between the numbers as they refer to the Pali version, and the page numbers of the English translation volumes(which would yield incorrect results if used). In other words he didn't want people looking for MN2.265 on page 265 of the translation, when the correct way is to look for [265] in the text itself (which makes it look like a verse number reference, even though it isn't).
It should also be noted that the PTS Roman edition is not the same as the BJT (Buddha Jayanti Tripitaka of Sri Lanka), which is available for free from the Journal of Buddhist Ethics.-- Vacchagotta 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I took it upon myself to reformat the Anatta in the Nikayas section; my small contribution to cleaning it up, I only standardized the sutta citations to PTS Roman indexing given in footnotes following each citation, for clarity. Vacchagotta 17:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
The current intro of the article makes the following important set of claims:
The majority view amongst present-day Buddhists is that the non-Self doctrine means that no ultimate, eternal Self of any kind exists at all within any being—no super-Soul, no enduring Essence, no deathless core. For a minority of Buddhists, however, (particularly within Mahayana Buddhism, such as followers of the Jonangpa School and of Tathagatagarbha Buddhism), the correct understanding is that there is, in fact, a True Self that is not confined within the transitory and suffering-generating skandhas. This True Self is the transcendent, all-pervasive Self of the Buddha himself and is one with Nirvana and is present within all beings. This beilef correlates with the Trikaya Doctrine of Vajrayana Buddhism.
Is this really true? How do we know or estimate the majority view among Buddhists? Tathagatagarbha thought, as far as I'm aware, is quite influential in East Asia and Tibet, where a lot of Buddhists live. The view described here might well be the consensus view in Theravada (I would imagine so, but there may be facts I'm unaware of), but I don't see how we can say more than that with confidence. Also, trikaya doctrine is, unless I'm mistaken, important in all forms of Mahayana, not just Vajrayana.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 05:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
On the question of "another undertanding" (rather than a "variant understanding): yes, I agree with you, Lucifereri. Your suggestion is more neutral, certainly. Anyway, my thanks to yourself and to Nat for your work on this "anatta" entry. Best wishes to you both. From Tony. TonyMPNS 11:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
It's not an "academic ploy". It's standard Mahayana practice from the time of the Lotus Sutra. It presented the early Buddhist teachings as merely skilful means. The Sandhinirmocana Sutra presented the emptiness teachings as merely skilful means. Throughout Mahayana history, each version describes all the others as merely skilful means. Perhaps Mahayanists have no right to complain if scholars do it back to them? How is anyone supposed to tell what the "real" Mahayana is? How is Wikipedia supposed to cope? Peter jackson ( talk) 12:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
The new attempt at a compromise version is now inhabiting this article. If you wish to edit it further, please have at it.— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 06:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
ī== A preliminary attempt at the Anatta in the Nikayas section==
Although the below is not the final version of my take on this section (it uses quotes to a some translation I do not know of...we need to discuss this somewhere else :-P; citations need to be more clearly made; I need to combine the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs or maybe separte them into two better paragraphs; and some extra examples): the essential structure is here, though. But more importantly, am I missing something here, or am I incorrect in something, or is the neutrality of this article in question? Sorry in advance for posting it here, but I would prefer getting comments on it before moving on... -- Lucifereri 12:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
“Whatever form, feelings, perceptions, experiences, or consciousness there is (the five aggregates), these he sees to be without permanence, as suffering, as ill, as a plague, a boil, a sting, a pain, an affliction, as foreign, as otherness, as empty (suññato), as Selfless (anattato). So he turns his mind away from these and gathers his mind/will within the realm of Immortality (amataya dhatuya). This is tranquility; this is that which is most excellent!” [MN 1.436]
The Buddhist term anatta (anatman in Sanskrit), which means "not-self," is considered one of the three seals of reality; the other two seals being anicca (impermanence) and dukkha (unsatisfactoriness). In the suttas, the co ncept of anatta generally refers to the nature of phenomena as being devoid of the Self (or soul) and explains how the five skandhas (or five aggregates: body, consciousness, feelings, perception, and volition) cannot in part or as a whole be seen as the Self. However, attempting to use anatta to describe Nibanna is controversial. One of the most cited quotes in scripture used to apply anatta to Nibanna is "Sabbe dhammá anattá" [Dhp. 277-279], which generally translates to "All dhammas are not-self". The controversy surrounds the meaning of the word dhamma: in some suttas the meaning of dhamma connotates both the five skandhas and Nibanna, while in other suttas the term dhamma is equivalent only to the five skandhas. Further complicating the matter is the fact that "Sabbe dhammá anattá" is perceeded by "Sabbe sankhárá aniccá" (All formations are impermanent) and "Sabbe sankhárá dukkhá" (All formations are suffering), where anicca and dukkha are explicity applied only to conditioned phenomena (sankhara) instead of dhamma. Thus, If dhamma's meaning includes Nibanna then that would imply Nibanna to be not-Self; if dhamma's meaning does not include Nibanna, only the five skandhas are not-Self (with no implication to what Nibanna is) [citation: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9366/nibban2.htm. This is a document by Ñánavíra Thera...I need a proper citation here]. Also, depending on the translation, certain suttas seem to imply that there truly is a Self that one awakens to in Nibanna. <need some examples here>. Finally, the suttas have the Buddha claiming that he neither taught the (extreme) view of eternalism nor the (extreme) view of nihilism (“Both formerly and now, I’ve never been a nihilist (vinayika), never been one who teaches the annihilation of a being, rather taught only the source of suffering, and its ending” [MN 1.140.). Thus, three possible interpretations of anatta emerge, each depending on how one interprets the Pali Suttas: there is no-Self one awakens to, there is a Self one awakens to, and the question of whether one awakens to a Self or not is inappropriate.
Also of importance, there exists a scriptural passage where the Buddha is asked by a layperson what the meaning of anatta: “At one time in Savatthi, the venerable Radha seated himself and asked of the Blessed Lord Buddha: ‘Anatta, anatta I hear said venerable. What pray tell does Anatta mean?’ ‘Just this Radha, form is not the Soul (anatta), sensations are not the Soul (anatta), perceptions are not the Soul (anatta), assemblages are not the Soul (anatta), consciousness is not the Soul (anatta). Seeing thusly, this is the end of birth, the Brahman life has been fulfilled, what must be done has been done’” [Samyutta Nikaya 3.196]. -- Lucifereri 12:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
So a couple comments on this. First, I see "island" (as well as "lamp") being an acceptable translation for this word from PTS...I also read that dipa in Pali = dvipa in Sk not dipa in Sk (this is sort of claimed by Walshe...he says something to the effect that this is what it should be, but we are not completely sure...at least that is what I think he is saying). Can you explain further why it is suspect, or is the answer too technical (I am no Pali scholar)? (This is just a curiosity, since I do not see how using "island" or "lamp" changes the definition of the sentance either way). Anyways, for the second comment (DN 16 2.25-26 also appears basically in the same form at DN. 26), the text that follows DN 16 2.25-26 explains the methodology of viewing "himself(?)\Self(?) as a refuge" as none other than practicing the four foundations of Mindfulness. So it seems to mean that to view himself (or possibly Self) as a refuge is to be mindful of body, feelings, mind, and the so-called mind made objects (I am using Walshe's translation of DN). So I am finding it hard to see absurdities in either interpretation. Thanks ahead of time. --Lucifereri 00:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the illuminating analysis of that famous "Self as island" passage. What you say makes eminent sense to me. Yes, the Dhamma is equated with the Atta here, both in terms of grammatical structure and in terms of the content - where "and nothing else" (to be taken as one's island and refuge) applies equally to "Dhamma" and "Atta". They are clearly intimately linked, if not identical. In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, interestingly, this tradition is continued: the Buddha specifically says that Dharma is Atman. It would be absurd to suggest that at the end of his life (in the Pali sutta), after a lifetime of teaching that there is no Self and that this is the core of his Dhamma, the Buddha would then say "rely on Dhamma, which is basically your changing, impermanent skandhas". That type of "island" would soon get washed away by the flood of change! Also, in the Vinaya we read of how the Buddha tells a group of young men who are in search of a particular woman, "What is better for you: that you seek after this woman, or that you seek after the Self?" Clearly an interior reality of great value is being referenced here. Also, the idea that the Buddha has no Self and is not a "witness" (as is often asserted by the "conventionalists") is provably wrong, since during the actual experience of Awakening no less, what does he do? He WATCHES the play of samsara; he WATCHES and WITNESSES the dying of beings and their re-arising according to their karma; he WATCHES and WITNESSES all his own past lives (not the lives of someone else - not of dehumanised "causes and conditions", but of himself in other bodies); he WATCHES and WITNESSES the destruction of the negative factors which hinder the obtention of Awakening. There is very much a witness Self in operation here - although it is not the ordinary ego of daily experience. It is a Buddhic Self. And the argument that this is while the Buddha has his skandhas and so is not definitive does not hold water, since the Buddha says elsewhere in the Pali texts that even now, in his present embodiment, he cannot be determned or found. In other words: he is not those remaining skandhas! He is mysteriously beyond. But he is always a Seer. Hope this adds a little to the discussion. All best wishes. From Tony. TonyMPNS 10:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I'm glad to see some progress with the anatta article! I think outlining the interpretive problems in dealing with it, and then describing all the possible ways the doctrine of anatta has been historically understood without pursuing the, in my opinion, fruitless question of which may have been the "original" position taught by the Buddha, is the best way to go. [User:Lotus]
Now to bring up some issues for consideration in this discussion happening on the talk page. [ Let me apologize in advance for my shaky Pāli, I'm still just a grad student, but I hope you won't hold that against me :-) ] I've been thinking about passages like "kacci pana tvaṃ bhikkhu attā sīlato na upavadatī'ti" at SN 35.75, where the Buddha asks a monk if he has any reason to find fault with himself with regard to virtue/moral conduct. The same kind of thing can be seen at AN 4.121, where, explaining attānuvādabhayaṃ, the Buddha describes a monk asking himself "kiñca taṃ yaṃ maṃ attā sīlato na upavadeyyā'ti." Also, at MN 65, we see the phrase: "Attāpi attānaṃ upavadati." Now, I've seen instances in the work of Caroline Rhys Davids where she translates such passages as having to do with a Self (big "S") blaming the naughty self (little "s") which has committed the misdeeds (specifically referring, if I remember correctly, to the explanation of "attādhipateyyaka" given in AN 3.40). A more "conventional" translation (as a side-note, I wonder whether "conventional"/ "conventionalist" has become a dirty word in this discussion?) would be something along the lines of "you find fault with yourself" "I might blame myself" "He censures himself." [User: Lotus]
However "atta" is to be taken here, it is obviously an important part of a monk's moral practice, one of the things that keeps him on track (one of four, according to the list at AN 4.121; one of three, according to AN 3.40). If it is indeed to be taken as "Self" with a capital "S", that would be a major doctrinal point, that a transcendent, pure, eternal, immanent (one of C.A.F. Rhys Davids' favorite words) "Self" is present and evaluating one's conduct here on earth at every step. One would expect copious amounts of religious writings on the topic, chapters and chapters even, explaining what would be a sublime and complicated teaching. And yet we find nothing, just a bunch of ambiguous passages where "atta" could be this, but it could also be that. [user:Lotus]
For those who think that such teachings were originally there but that later "monkish" Theravada editors simply edited it all out.... there's only so much editing a person, a school, a tradition can do... I really don't think there would be any way to coordinate such a massive re-editing campaign so that all texts in all of the Theravada world would have the Self cut out of them. I'm not denying that passages like the one you guys have been considering in the Mahāparinibānna Sutta can be read in a variety of different ways, but to call one reading the "original" or the only possible one, is an exercise in orthodoxy. In the attempt of uncovering the "original," it denounces all other readings as "deviations," "corruptions," "perversions." What about the possibility that these passages were purposefully left ambiguous from the very start? [user:Lotus]
And I think that I can reach at least a somewhat plausible reading of the atta-dīpo atta-saraṇo... passage. In a religion where self-dependence and self-reliance seem to be highly valued and praised (one of the epithets of the Buddha, after all, being sayambhū; also, consider the Buddha comparing a monk who has cast off the five fetters to a slave who has become "attādhīno" at DN 2, or the common description of someone becoming aparappaccayo satthusāsane), the idea that the Buddha would command monks to be self-reliant (but not Self-reliant) is definitely a possibility worth considering. If we view this in light of Occam's razor, this would probably be the easiest conclusion to come to, in that it wouldn't require one to make the grand leap of positing that centuries of Buddhist thinkers and commentators have gotten it all wrong (although, in general, Buddhist scholars seem to get a kick out of saying Buddhaghosa always gets it all wrong...I never was able to figure out why), or making some crass statement about "monkish editors" butchering texts. Still, razors aside, I would have to concede that the "pro-Atta" reading is a possible one, and a significant one, which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the subject :-) Lotus 22:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone explain what "as pertains" means in the article? I have a vague idea what the writer is getting at, but I am not sure. I do not think it is standard English and I would like to change it to something that is. Will check back later.
How do you write "anātman" or "anatta" in Devanagari? Le Anh-Huy 05:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The article mentions pain in passing, as one of the impermanent stimuli from which one can turn his mind away. This seems a very fundamental issue, as many people's belief systems regard pain as more fundamental than morality; for example, the Christian who accepts that something is wrong because you'll go to hell (in vulgar conception) if you do it. It also seems an issue that is experimentally testable and practically useful, as the alleviation of pain is a major industry.
I know next to nothing of Buddhism, but the description in this article rings true to me - while I certainly have not suffered the pains borne heroically by a large percentage of ordinary people, such pains as I have experienced have seemed to be ameliorated to a fair degree by taking time to consider the nature of pain and what meaning it actually has, and whether it is fundamental to the conscious experience or somehow an illusion or instinctive reaction external to the core of one's being.
I think that experts in Buddhism could better clarify things to the uninitiated by considering narrowly the phenomenon of pain and explaining, in simple terms, what mental methods can be used to reduce its impact in the short term. Wnt ( talk) 08:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Why is it Pali? Standard practice is to use Sanskrit for pan-Buddhist terms. Is it being implied that it's mainly Theravada? That may be so, as seems to be suggested above (Carmen Blacker told us the Japanese are not interested in this "Hinayana" doctrine), but that would have to be properly sourced. Peter jackson ( talk) 12:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
In contrast with the uncited material in this excuse for an article, "the 'tathagatagarbha'/Buddha nature does not represent a substantial self ('atman'); rather, it is a positive language and expression of 'sunyata' (emptiness) and represents the potentiality to realize Buddhahood through Buddhist practices." as Buddhist nun and PhD holder in Buddhist studies Heng-Ching Shih reports. Mitsube ( talk) 20:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is a problem all over wikipedia. Whenever there is mention of the Buddha's core message of anatta/sunyata it is always contradicted immediately after by a "but this isn't actually true." It's only in wikipedia that this is seen. Texts on Buddhism simply aren't like this. The confusing imbalance between Buddhism on the one hand and misinterpretation of some late non-Buddha vacana texts on the otherhand is worrisome. It reflects badly on wikipedia. Can it be fixed? I'm not sure. Mitsube ( talk) 05:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
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