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Perhaps it would be better to whittle this down to elements which were more purely Anarchist and Musilm. Hakim Bey seems relevant but I'm not sure if he says he is Muslim. Yakoub Islam seems to fit the bill. And possibly a discussion of the Green book. But other elements seem to fit better in an article about liberal Islam, or revolutionary movements within Islam (e.g. Shariati) or leftist tendancies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.70.79.124 ( talk) 22:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I am replacing the npov tag. While i initially thought that it's placement was vandalism/nonsense, I now realize that it was placed because the article reads like the script of an after-school special. This article needs to be cleaned up as well, and I will do as best as I can before I must leave the country this afternoon. -- jonasaurus 17:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a lot of new stuff and I'll try to clean up the old text a bit (can be found under "Modern Muslim Anarchism and the Internet"). I'm interested in feedback. I've moved the stuff about Yakoub Islam to a new article and I've also removed the NPOV and cleanup tags, as the article looks much cleaner and more complete now. Funkybeat 03:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
"Kharijites... believed that non-believers had no rights, and could be killed" this is non-sense what, if any, sorce is this from? The Kharijites respected the Dhimmi status of Jews and Christians even while they disagreed with the legitimacy of the islamic state and felt that opressive muslims could be killed; this is what led to a decline in their popularity. See Montgommery Watt's "formative period of Islamic thought" for more details.
As both Sunni and Shia strands of Islam developed into authoritarian ideologies,... Can this be elaborated? Sunni and Shi'a Islam developed in very different ways, with one the key differences being the Shi'a belief in a hereditary leadership while the Sunni believed leaders should be chosen through consensus. As far as I know, much of the anti-auhoritarian ideals of anarchism are actually compatable with Sunni tradition in Islam. -- Yodakii 07:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems important for the purposes of this article to differenciate between Islamic religious doctrine, or faith, and cultural tendencies in the "Muslim World." Wahaiyya is a good example of this. While backed up by specious passages from the Qur'an and the ahadith, Wahabi Sunniyya mostly comes from misunderstood writings of ibn al-Wahab, who himself was a reformer. His ideas caught on, but with folks who were mostly nationalists and conservative, I'll say, junkheads. The treatment of women, homosexuals, property and economics in, say, Wahabi Saudi Arabia are were much at odds with many many many passages from the Qur'an and the ahadith, not the least of which prohibits chargine interest on debt. They get around this by charging and "user fee on a sliding scale, dependent on time, for loans." But this is a historic cultural issue, not a doctrinal one.
Whoever has issues with neutrality should bring them up here so they can be discussed. Funkybeat 18:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has severe problems in terms of its tone and voice. At times it seems to attack Islam for its treatment of women, at others praises it for it compatability with Anarchism. It reads more like an argument for Islamic reform than it does an article about an existing undercurrent in Islam. As for the Christian anarchism article, that's as much of a mess as this one is. I agree that there should possibly be some sort of larger methodology for these types of articles, possibly a sub-set navigation bar for religious anarchism, but these two artcles, when set in comparison, simply point out how much work has to be done, without giving any tools to get there.-- dionysius84 10:24, March 16
I don't see how most of the "Anarchist criticisms of Islam" currently in the article are actually "Anarchist" criticisms. In particular:
ntennis 01:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(looking at graves of rich men):
(against orthodoxy:)
In contrast, here's a quote from the Anarchist Federation's "resistance" magazine (December 2001): "...Revolutionary anarchism is atheist. Anarchists have always rejected all authority, not least that of a mythical god. Islam in contrast is all about submission to such a nonentity. Muslims are essentially enslaved not to a god but to a set of bogus revelations found in the Koran. And, it is the task of Islam to ensure that all of the peoples in the world are similarly enslaved. ... So, Islam is an enemy of all freedom loving people. Anarchism alone recognises the need to destroy all gods and replace them with human solidarity, freedom and equality. It is certain that, if given the opportunity, Islam would introduce another form of authoritarianism in Britain and across the globe. It must be resisted." full article here.
ntennis 02:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I added the tag because this article has a few problems.
Although anarchism is commonly associated with atheism and rejection of organized religion, and Islam is often associated with authoritarian regimes and criticised for human rights violations in some parts of the Islamic world, there have also been significant anarchist undercurrents throughout the history of Islam.
This opening is not very good. Firstly is plays to stereotypes of both Islam and anarchism instead of addressing how they relate. If we are going to have something of that nature we first need some good sources using such wording. It will not do if that is our intro uncited. We go on to see:
This became increasingly the case at the end of the 20th century with the rise of liberal movements within Islam, when the concept of Muslim anarchism first appears.
This may be true in a certain sense of the word "anarchism", however, when we have papers called "Ninth-Century Muslim Anarchists" by Patricia Crone we must at least give some explanation as to what type of Muslim anarchism appears in the 20th century. This article's sources don't appear to be especially notable but even at that we need to clarify what comes from what source. This is especially important since there is no dogmatic opinion on this... just minor groups (at least in present times). gren グレン 02:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Although anarchism is commonly associated rejection of organized religion (see anarchism and religion), and Islam is condemned by some critics for perceived human rights violations in some parts of the Islamic world (see women in islam and homosexuality in islam), there have also been significant anarchist undercurrents throughout the history of Islam.
As to the Crone article, sorry I should have been more explicit in what I meant by that. Her article expressly denies that these Muslims should be refered to in either a cpntemorary or anachronistic sense. Her article demonstraotes that while there are certain passages written by the Mutaziliyya that sound anarchistic, the doctrine is hardly anti-authoritarian. They would mke a poor addition to the history section. Dionysius84 23:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
A general problem I am seeing in this article and the Christian Anarchism one is that while one can infinitely support an argument for a religious anarchism, there is no published material other than bits and scattered pieces here and there. I could run down all of the anarchistsic passages of the Qur'an in this article, and there are hundreds, but without anyone to cite as believing these to be anarchistic, what would that do. A lot of re-thinking how to do this article has to be done. Dionysius84 17:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this whole article is problematic
Well it seems from this very article that there is no Islamic Anarchism! So far there are no movements, books, history. All I can see are 3 personalities: Hakim Bey (is he even Muslim?), Yakoub Islam and Ali Shariati (was he an Anarchist; sounds like he was more a socialst / third world-ist).
I'd say that there's the possibility, at least intellectually (or theoretically), of seeing Anarchism through Islamic eyes. However, at this stage it's nothing more than some interesting ideas. It's definitely not a movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezra haSofer ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
An important and influential figure in the 20th century was Ali Shariati, one of the ideologues of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and of whom Jean Paul Sartre said: "I have no religion, but if I were to choose one, it would be Shariati's". After the Islamic Revolution took on a particularly vicious authoritarian note, Shariati was imprisoned for his lectures, which were extremely popular with the students, and was forced to flee Iran. He was assassinated shortly afterwards. Ahem, this is sheer nonsense.
First of all, Shariati was not an "ideologue" of the Islamic Revolution in Iran (unless Marx was an "ideologue" of the Russian Revolution or Wagner an "ideologue" of the Nazi Party.) Second, the "particularly vicious authoritarian" who imprisoned Shariati was none other than HIM Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi (not your typical "Islamic Revolutionary.") Thirdly, Shariati died of a heart attack -- if we want to say that Shariati's "heart attack" was induced by an assassin (the way some conspiracy theorists say the aforementioned Shah "caught" cancer from the CIA) we should just say it, instead of using factual sounding vague statements like "He was assassinated shortly afterwards." Whomever posted the Shariati segment in "Islam and Anarchism" should consult the "Ali Shariati" article on Wikipedia first ....
The article says that Shariati was killed "After the Islamic Revolution took on a particularly vicious authoritarian note". The Islamic Revolution happened in 1979 and Shariati was assasinated in 1977.
I realize I'm in no way an expert or even especially knowledgeable on the topic of Islam, however the bits of this article that state a lack of hierarchies within Islam either ignores Shi'a Islam entirely, or just plain eats failure for dinner. Far as I know, though I can only support this from other Wikipedia articles, the Shias most certainly do have a system of hierarchical religious authority, and they're the second largest denomination of Islam and thus hardly something to gloss over! If it were up to me, I'd chop this article down to listings of Anarchist Islamic groups and movements and perhaps some paragraphs about how they're not exactly like whichever denominations of mainstream Islam they originated in. 88.112.3.21 16:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm new and I'm not sure I'm doing this right (Wikipedia's "guidelines" could be a short tech college course!). However, I want to address the "Anarchism in Islam" question, speaking as an active Australian Anarchist of 30 years standing and an admirer of some Sufi tendencies. There is an elephant in the room and that elephant is Libya. The ideology of Libya as expressed in the Green Book is "well-known" among Anarchists in my parts to be heavily influenced by classical Anarchism, especially anarcho-syndicalism of the Spanish type. I have spoken to several travellers returning from Libya who report much Bakunin in the libraries in Libya, and certainly in 1980s Melbourne Palestinain Libya-supporters were pitching Libya as Anarchism realised.....at least to Anarchists. But you do not need to rely on such vague anecdotal claims (as I realise you must not). You just have to read the Green Book and compare it with classical Anarchism, especially what might be called its more authoritarian manifestations. The Spanish civil war document Towards a Fresh Revolution by disappointed Anarchist militants envisages a military junta sort of floating on top of a system of self-management, much as the Green Book implies and as travellers were reporting from Libya in the 1980s/early 1990s.
Much of the Green Book could come from any anarcho-syndicalist text, I quote from part one on the problem of democracy: - "A party that is formed in the name of a class inevitably becomes a substitute for that class and continues in the process of spontaneous transformation until it becomes hostile to the class that it replaces." Like much else in the Green Book this could have been written by Bakunin. For anyone even slightly familiar with collectivist Anarchist writings the Green Book's debt really is the elephant in the room. Although there are other anarchistic elements in Islam which I will get back to if I can.
The Green Book - http://www.mathaba.net/gci/theory/gb.htm
Towards a Fresh Revolution - http://recollectionbooks.com/anow/arch/tafr/index.html, http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/fod/towardsintro.html
Bakunin Archive - http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_Archives/bakunin/Bakuninarchive.html Jeremytrewindixon 03:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
What I added today are the bare-bones points Crone mentions in "Ninth-Century Muslim Anarchists". Basically they weren't individualists, secularists, revolutionaries, or socialists. They were an-archists in the classical sense of not having a leader or not wanting one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeBryan ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I question whether this article is actually useful. I do not believe it touches deeply on the subject of Islam and Anarchism and the sections it does have are extremely weak/lacking.
For instance:
- the Kharijites section discusses about having a minimal government, or a system in which authority can be questioned. This is not anarchy. Anarchy is the elimination of government altogether. What this section touches upon is libertarianism/democracy if anything.
- The Najdiyya section seems to display some anarchist views but doesn't go into enough detail or give citations.
- How is Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan an anarchist or having anarchist tendencies? Advocating non-violence (in terms of militarily) does not make you an anarchist. I am sure billions are pacifists but you cannot therefore call them anarchists.
- Ali Shariati section is useless without citation and quotes. If he is not an anarchist, why mention his name, especially if no quotations/citations of any writings by him relating to anarchism.
- The Hardline section offers nothing to the article in knowing more about anarchy and Islam.
- I do not see how Hakim Bey's section is relevant
-- Waqas1987 ( talk) 00:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
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Perhaps it would be better to whittle this down to elements which were more purely Anarchist and Musilm. Hakim Bey seems relevant but I'm not sure if he says he is Muslim. Yakoub Islam seems to fit the bill. And possibly a discussion of the Green book. But other elements seem to fit better in an article about liberal Islam, or revolutionary movements within Islam (e.g. Shariati) or leftist tendancies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.70.79.124 ( talk) 22:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
I am replacing the npov tag. While i initially thought that it's placement was vandalism/nonsense, I now realize that it was placed because the article reads like the script of an after-school special. This article needs to be cleaned up as well, and I will do as best as I can before I must leave the country this afternoon. -- jonasaurus 17:12, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I've added a lot of new stuff and I'll try to clean up the old text a bit (can be found under "Modern Muslim Anarchism and the Internet"). I'm interested in feedback. I've moved the stuff about Yakoub Islam to a new article and I've also removed the NPOV and cleanup tags, as the article looks much cleaner and more complete now. Funkybeat 03:50, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
"Kharijites... believed that non-believers had no rights, and could be killed" this is non-sense what, if any, sorce is this from? The Kharijites respected the Dhimmi status of Jews and Christians even while they disagreed with the legitimacy of the islamic state and felt that opressive muslims could be killed; this is what led to a decline in their popularity. See Montgommery Watt's "formative period of Islamic thought" for more details.
As both Sunni and Shia strands of Islam developed into authoritarian ideologies,... Can this be elaborated? Sunni and Shi'a Islam developed in very different ways, with one the key differences being the Shi'a belief in a hereditary leadership while the Sunni believed leaders should be chosen through consensus. As far as I know, much of the anti-auhoritarian ideals of anarchism are actually compatable with Sunni tradition in Islam. -- Yodakii 07:42, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
It seems important for the purposes of this article to differenciate between Islamic religious doctrine, or faith, and cultural tendencies in the "Muslim World." Wahaiyya is a good example of this. While backed up by specious passages from the Qur'an and the ahadith, Wahabi Sunniyya mostly comes from misunderstood writings of ibn al-Wahab, who himself was a reformer. His ideas caught on, but with folks who were mostly nationalists and conservative, I'll say, junkheads. The treatment of women, homosexuals, property and economics in, say, Wahabi Saudi Arabia are were much at odds with many many many passages from the Qur'an and the ahadith, not the least of which prohibits chargine interest on debt. They get around this by charging and "user fee on a sliding scale, dependent on time, for loans." But this is a historic cultural issue, not a doctrinal one.
Whoever has issues with neutrality should bring them up here so they can be discussed. Funkybeat 18:45, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
This article has severe problems in terms of its tone and voice. At times it seems to attack Islam for its treatment of women, at others praises it for it compatability with Anarchism. It reads more like an argument for Islamic reform than it does an article about an existing undercurrent in Islam. As for the Christian anarchism article, that's as much of a mess as this one is. I agree that there should possibly be some sort of larger methodology for these types of articles, possibly a sub-set navigation bar for religious anarchism, but these two artcles, when set in comparison, simply point out how much work has to be done, without giving any tools to get there.-- dionysius84 10:24, March 16
I don't see how most of the "Anarchist criticisms of Islam" currently in the article are actually "Anarchist" criticisms. In particular:
ntennis 01:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
(looking at graves of rich men):
(against orthodoxy:)
In contrast, here's a quote from the Anarchist Federation's "resistance" magazine (December 2001): "...Revolutionary anarchism is atheist. Anarchists have always rejected all authority, not least that of a mythical god. Islam in contrast is all about submission to such a nonentity. Muslims are essentially enslaved not to a god but to a set of bogus revelations found in the Koran. And, it is the task of Islam to ensure that all of the peoples in the world are similarly enslaved. ... So, Islam is an enemy of all freedom loving people. Anarchism alone recognises the need to destroy all gods and replace them with human solidarity, freedom and equality. It is certain that, if given the opportunity, Islam would introduce another form of authoritarianism in Britain and across the globe. It must be resisted." full article here.
ntennis 02:50, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I added the tag because this article has a few problems.
Although anarchism is commonly associated with atheism and rejection of organized religion, and Islam is often associated with authoritarian regimes and criticised for human rights violations in some parts of the Islamic world, there have also been significant anarchist undercurrents throughout the history of Islam.
This opening is not very good. Firstly is plays to stereotypes of both Islam and anarchism instead of addressing how they relate. If we are going to have something of that nature we first need some good sources using such wording. It will not do if that is our intro uncited. We go on to see:
This became increasingly the case at the end of the 20th century with the rise of liberal movements within Islam, when the concept of Muslim anarchism first appears.
This may be true in a certain sense of the word "anarchism", however, when we have papers called "Ninth-Century Muslim Anarchists" by Patricia Crone we must at least give some explanation as to what type of Muslim anarchism appears in the 20th century. This article's sources don't appear to be especially notable but even at that we need to clarify what comes from what source. This is especially important since there is no dogmatic opinion on this... just minor groups (at least in present times). gren グレン 02:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
Although anarchism is commonly associated rejection of organized religion (see anarchism and religion), and Islam is condemned by some critics for perceived human rights violations in some parts of the Islamic world (see women in islam and homosexuality in islam), there have also been significant anarchist undercurrents throughout the history of Islam.
As to the Crone article, sorry I should have been more explicit in what I meant by that. Her article expressly denies that these Muslims should be refered to in either a cpntemorary or anachronistic sense. Her article demonstraotes that while there are certain passages written by the Mutaziliyya that sound anarchistic, the doctrine is hardly anti-authoritarian. They would mke a poor addition to the history section. Dionysius84 23:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
A general problem I am seeing in this article and the Christian Anarchism one is that while one can infinitely support an argument for a religious anarchism, there is no published material other than bits and scattered pieces here and there. I could run down all of the anarchistsic passages of the Qur'an in this article, and there are hundreds, but without anyone to cite as believing these to be anarchistic, what would that do. A lot of re-thinking how to do this article has to be done. Dionysius84 17:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this whole article is problematic
Well it seems from this very article that there is no Islamic Anarchism! So far there are no movements, books, history. All I can see are 3 personalities: Hakim Bey (is he even Muslim?), Yakoub Islam and Ali Shariati (was he an Anarchist; sounds like he was more a socialst / third world-ist).
I'd say that there's the possibility, at least intellectually (or theoretically), of seeing Anarchism through Islamic eyes. However, at this stage it's nothing more than some interesting ideas. It's definitely not a movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezra haSofer ( talk • contribs) 13:17, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
An important and influential figure in the 20th century was Ali Shariati, one of the ideologues of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and of whom Jean Paul Sartre said: "I have no religion, but if I were to choose one, it would be Shariati's". After the Islamic Revolution took on a particularly vicious authoritarian note, Shariati was imprisoned for his lectures, which were extremely popular with the students, and was forced to flee Iran. He was assassinated shortly afterwards. Ahem, this is sheer nonsense.
First of all, Shariati was not an "ideologue" of the Islamic Revolution in Iran (unless Marx was an "ideologue" of the Russian Revolution or Wagner an "ideologue" of the Nazi Party.) Second, the "particularly vicious authoritarian" who imprisoned Shariati was none other than HIM Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi (not your typical "Islamic Revolutionary.") Thirdly, Shariati died of a heart attack -- if we want to say that Shariati's "heart attack" was induced by an assassin (the way some conspiracy theorists say the aforementioned Shah "caught" cancer from the CIA) we should just say it, instead of using factual sounding vague statements like "He was assassinated shortly afterwards." Whomever posted the Shariati segment in "Islam and Anarchism" should consult the "Ali Shariati" article on Wikipedia first ....
The article says that Shariati was killed "After the Islamic Revolution took on a particularly vicious authoritarian note". The Islamic Revolution happened in 1979 and Shariati was assasinated in 1977.
I realize I'm in no way an expert or even especially knowledgeable on the topic of Islam, however the bits of this article that state a lack of hierarchies within Islam either ignores Shi'a Islam entirely, or just plain eats failure for dinner. Far as I know, though I can only support this from other Wikipedia articles, the Shias most certainly do have a system of hierarchical religious authority, and they're the second largest denomination of Islam and thus hardly something to gloss over! If it were up to me, I'd chop this article down to listings of Anarchist Islamic groups and movements and perhaps some paragraphs about how they're not exactly like whichever denominations of mainstream Islam they originated in. 88.112.3.21 16:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm new and I'm not sure I'm doing this right (Wikipedia's "guidelines" could be a short tech college course!). However, I want to address the "Anarchism in Islam" question, speaking as an active Australian Anarchist of 30 years standing and an admirer of some Sufi tendencies. There is an elephant in the room and that elephant is Libya. The ideology of Libya as expressed in the Green Book is "well-known" among Anarchists in my parts to be heavily influenced by classical Anarchism, especially anarcho-syndicalism of the Spanish type. I have spoken to several travellers returning from Libya who report much Bakunin in the libraries in Libya, and certainly in 1980s Melbourne Palestinain Libya-supporters were pitching Libya as Anarchism realised.....at least to Anarchists. But you do not need to rely on such vague anecdotal claims (as I realise you must not). You just have to read the Green Book and compare it with classical Anarchism, especially what might be called its more authoritarian manifestations. The Spanish civil war document Towards a Fresh Revolution by disappointed Anarchist militants envisages a military junta sort of floating on top of a system of self-management, much as the Green Book implies and as travellers were reporting from Libya in the 1980s/early 1990s.
Much of the Green Book could come from any anarcho-syndicalist text, I quote from part one on the problem of democracy: - "A party that is formed in the name of a class inevitably becomes a substitute for that class and continues in the process of spontaneous transformation until it becomes hostile to the class that it replaces." Like much else in the Green Book this could have been written by Bakunin. For anyone even slightly familiar with collectivist Anarchist writings the Green Book's debt really is the elephant in the room. Although there are other anarchistic elements in Islam which I will get back to if I can.
The Green Book - http://www.mathaba.net/gci/theory/gb.htm
Towards a Fresh Revolution - http://recollectionbooks.com/anow/arch/tafr/index.html, http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/fod/towardsintro.html
Bakunin Archive - http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_Archives/bakunin/Bakuninarchive.html Jeremytrewindixon 03:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
What I added today are the bare-bones points Crone mentions in "Ninth-Century Muslim Anarchists". Basically they weren't individualists, secularists, revolutionaries, or socialists. They were an-archists in the classical sense of not having a leader or not wanting one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MikeBryan ( talk • contribs) 16:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I question whether this article is actually useful. I do not believe it touches deeply on the subject of Islam and Anarchism and the sections it does have are extremely weak/lacking.
For instance:
- the Kharijites section discusses about having a minimal government, or a system in which authority can be questioned. This is not anarchy. Anarchy is the elimination of government altogether. What this section touches upon is libertarianism/democracy if anything.
- The Najdiyya section seems to display some anarchist views but doesn't go into enough detail or give citations.
- How is Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan an anarchist or having anarchist tendencies? Advocating non-violence (in terms of militarily) does not make you an anarchist. I am sure billions are pacifists but you cannot therefore call them anarchists.
- Ali Shariati section is useless without citation and quotes. If he is not an anarchist, why mention his name, especially if no quotations/citations of any writings by him relating to anarchism.
- The Hardline section offers nothing to the article in knowing more about anarchy and Islam.
- I do not see how Hakim Bey's section is relevant
-- Waqas1987 ( talk) 00:52, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on Anarchism and Islam. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:57, 12 October 2016 (UTC)