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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Per WP:BRD, Francis Schonken should discuss these matters carefully. He should also follow WP:consensus. The sources are carefully and clearly sourced. It appears, however, that Francis Schonken is just objecting to some matters concerning the Reformation. On many cases he has been edit-warring on en.wikipedia and de.wikipedia. His edits do not reasonable or circumspect. Mathsci ( talk) 12:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
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Currently:Proposed rewrite:
Better phrasing (e.g. "now", "despite", as in the current version, are avoided per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch), and makes it clearer which content derives from which source. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC) For clarity, precision in the references is a tool to not deviate from what they say: e.g. "tract" seems a Wikipedia editor's invention: none of the sources seem to refer to Das dritt theil Straßburger kirchenampt (or the three-volume publication as a whole) as a "tract", which seems an incorrect denomination of that volume. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:00, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Returning to Appendix A:
It's hard to tell how many of these things involve the particular hymn. In one case that I checked, it didn't. Daniel T-L seems to have been fairly careful at looking at sources (including digital records). Mathsci ( talk) 16:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
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These paragraphs currently both present a problem described as "list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations", hence should be tagged {{ more footnotes}} until the problem is resolved. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
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I would like to make some comments on images here—why were some of these were created and which new ones could be used. I will think about this for a while. Mathsci ( talk) 14:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I have noticed that the whole first paragraph of the section of "History and context" seems to have major problems. The main statement about the kirchenampt (i.e. that it is lost) is incorrect: that is explained in one of the main 2015 references. The whole of the kirchenampt is readable. Another basic problem is that the kirchenampt and the only comprehensive version of the Straßburger Gesangbuch (1541) are all intimately related to the writing of Martin Bucer: images of documents by Bucer, Greiter and the printer are easy to find and instructive. In addition the references of Zahn are out of date. They have been superseded by these new versions, "Das Deutsche Kirchenlied. Kritische Gesamtausgabe der Melodien III/1,1" (1993) edited by Joachim Stalmann, Karl-Günther Hartmann and Hans-Otto Korth. The University Library, Cambridge has copies available at M259.b.6.1 in the Anderson Room. I am going to use several new images to modify the page using reliable secondary sources.
The other in-line citations seem fine at the moment: it is probably worth archiving that now. If any user has any reasonable questions about later paragraphs, they should explain it in a short and concise way. The source of Tocmé-Latter has been invaluable: it has unearthed documents—sometimes cryptic electronic links—that have been hard to find. It seems I am the only person to have used those on wikipedia. Mathsci ( talk) 06:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
I am going to handle these one at a time to resolve sourcing problems. Two of the main problems will be discussed later. The first concerns how to identify the key of a hymn, printed in text, such as Schemmeli's 1736 "Musikalisches Gesang-Buch." The second concerns a cantata-type movement omitted in the section. I will start with the first problematic source. Mathsci ( talk) 12:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Mathsci ( talk) 15:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
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Robin Leaver is one of the foremost scholars on Bach: he is editor-in-chief of the Routledge Research Companion to Johann Sebastian Bach. Specialising in musicology and theology at Princeton University, he is also an Anglican minister and organist. In the 1990s, Anne Leahy met Leaver in Princeton, when she was studying at University College, Dublin. Leahy shared the same interests and passions as Leaver, and he became one of her mentors; in 2002 he served as part of the jury for her Ph.D. dissertation at the University of Utrecht. His Netherlandish supervisor in Utrecht predeceased her in 2006; Leahy herself died in 2007, leaving her project for a book on the Leipzig chorales incomplete, particularly the unwritten concluding chapter. Leaver assisted in preparing a 2011 edition, including a long obituary and a newly written introduction. As explained by Leaver (and in David Yearsley's 2008 review of Leaver's Festschrift), the book was not in a wholly satisfactory state vis-a-vis the balance between music and theology. Leahy's interest in the particular article was an off-shoot of Leaver's specialty. Basing himself on Lutheran hymnbooks centred mostly around Erfurt, Leaver explains how hymn sheets or hymn books could be used as codes for keys and pitch in Thuringian congregations, allowing the most popular hymn tunes, melodia suavissima, to be easily recognised. The left hand side allows the key to be found from the hymn text (or an incipit); on the right hand side, if needed the organist can check the pitch (this involves the standard baroque method of transposition). Leaver explains these is a number of examples, most notably in the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch", printed and published with Bach's aid. In this example, page 401, No. 587, of the "Gesangbuch" is used for the key of D in "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" [7]; in page 60, No. 56, the incipit is used for the same melody but a different text in the key of G. [8] Mathsci ( talk) 08:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC) |
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Conclusions. Firstly, the Grove Music Online with its large number of specialist scholars is the first recourse for creating the content of this section. That is still ongoing. Secondly the discussion of keys has been solved. Indeed in Robin Leaver's chapter on Chorales in the Routledge Research Companion, page 371, he already gave the examples for "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and the 1736 Schemelli Gesangbuch. Items on Tomita and Leaver cover almost all that is needed here for Bach's Chorales, including details of the principal copyists; Tomita refers to Dürr Chr and Dürr Chr 2, which are the standard references for chronology. Hans-Joachim Schulze also covers this in Bach Perspectives 2 (1996)—see page 40. Lastly the large number of missing entries in the section has to be corrected. I will give more details of this, but I certainly will not be rushed into things. Mathsci ( talk) 18:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
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@Francis Schonken: It is impossible for there to be an edit war with only one editor. That is, if Mathsci is edit warring, then so are you. There is a simple solution for any edit war on this article and its talk page—find something else to do until Mathsci has finished his current work. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
In the Routledge Research Companion to JSB (2017), Yo Tomita and others have explained in great detail how Alfred Dürr determined the chronology of Bach's vocal works. The references are to Dürr Chr and Dürr Chr 2. These are very famous references which have stood up to all later checks. In the Routledge Research Companion, those iconic references are the first to appear. Mathsci ( talk) 14:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Why has Francis Schonken been posting this on wikipedia?
"Leipzig, Stadtbibliothek Leipzig, Musikbibliothek: D-LEb Peters Ms. R 18 = Choralsammlung Dietel (Depositum im Bach-Archiv)".
Bach Digital. 2017. Retrieved 4 June 2017. (description of Dietel's collection of four-part chorales by Johann Sebastian Bach) Mathsci ( talk) 20:20, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
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I don't see any speculation. I have written about 11 different composers in detail. For Bach, the content involves (a) how the manuscript was unearthed in Leipzig and (b) how keys can be determined using incipits written in the region and period of Bach. Both are interesting but not riveting. A diversion. The attempt to use raw Bach archive material to create wikipedia content is just misleading and confusing for general readers of wikipedia. In all these cases, proper scholarship is easy to identify from reliable secondary sources: that is the way to write content. Why mislead and confuse the reader? Mathsci ( talk) 01:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Moving to the first sentence of the paragraph: it contains "... composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276 ...", which is WP:OR. For most of the chorale harmonisations in the Dietel collection it is not known when Bach composed them: it contains a few from cantatas and other larger works that have a precise date, but for most of them, including BWV 276, it is not known when they were composed – c. 1735 is no more than a terminus ante quem for these settings, because that's the date of Dietel's copy. Bach may well have composed it ten or more years earlier. That's what the reliable sources say, so the WP:OR should go. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 00:34, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
The text you wrote for the Bach segment was like this two days ago:
Bach also composed a four-part setting, BWV 267, which appeared around 1735 in the Dietel manuscript. That harmonisation is found as well in G major and in A-flat major in 18th-century chorale collections, both as "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and as "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld". For instance, its publication in the Breitkopf edition of the 1780s has it as No. 5 in G major under the former title and as No. 308 in A-flat major under the latter title.
It involved the manipulation of the primary source from the entry in the Bach archive. [16] The way of using the raw list as a source for the article is just original research and synthesis. The fact that Luke Dahn's self-published document erroneously lists Matthias Greiter as the originator of the hymn tune has been ignored by Francis Schonken: it shows that Dahn is not a reliable secondary source. The best idea is to modify the first sentence to remove everything written by Francis Schonken. The creation of the link/article Dietel manuscript seems to have been created by Francis Schonken as some kind of trophy war. No normal wikipedian would have created that type of misleading link or article. Is this not just grudge or revenge editing? The pattern has been repeated many times: standard editing of the article continues for a period until Francis Schonken decides to put a spanner in the works, as some new ploy.
But I don't know how this is going to be handled by the arbitration committee. It's a bit similar to the "Echigo mole" problem, which involved five years of trolling 2009–2013. There has also been harassment off-wiki, which has been mentioned by a former administrator (again it concerns the arbitration committee). It's all the same kind of thing. Mathsci ( talk) 07:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose to replace:
moved below, see "entire paragraph, current (with references)"
currently the first half of the fifth paragraph of An Wasserflüssen Babylon#Vocal settings, containing original research as detailed above, and veering off-topic w.r.t. the topic of this article (Dachstein's "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" hymn), also as explained above, by:
moved below, see "entire paragraph, proposed (with references)"
For clarity:
The above sums up the most apparent advantages enough, I suppose, to proceed with such replacement. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC); updated, see full paragraph proposal below 10:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once.
Entire paragraph, current (with references):
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. [1] [2] [3] Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once. [4] [5]
Entire paragraph, proposed (with references):
Bach also composed a chorale harmonisation, BWV 267, which appeared around 1735 in the Dietel manuscript. [6] [7] [8] That harmonisation is found as well in G major and in A-flat major in 18th-century chorale collections, both as "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and as "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld". [7] For instance, its publication in the Breitkopf edition of the 1780s has it as No. 5 in G major under the former title and as No. 308 in A-flat major under the latter title. [7] [9] In Schemelli's 1736 hymnal, to which Bach collaborated, the key of the "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" hymn, No. 587, is given as "D", and that of seven other hymns sung to the same melody, including "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld", No. 259, as "G". [10] [11]
notes, references, sources
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This would be the entire paragraph, as suggested. Same reasoning as above; plus, phrasing somewhat clearer for the second half. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Replaced per above, replicating the replaced content here:
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 267 [1]. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. [2] [3] [4] Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once.
References
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Per WP:BRD, Francis Schonken should discuss these matters carefully. He should also follow WP:consensus. The sources are carefully and clearly sourced. It appears, however, that Francis Schonken is just objecting to some matters concerning the Reformation. On many cases he has been edit-warring on en.wikipedia and de.wikipedia. His edits do not reasonable or circumspect. Mathsci ( talk) 12:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
Currently:Proposed rewrite:
Better phrasing (e.g. "now", "despite", as in the current version, are avoided per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch), and makes it clearer which content derives from which source. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC) For clarity, precision in the references is a tool to not deviate from what they say: e.g. "tract" seems a Wikipedia editor's invention: none of the sources seem to refer to Das dritt theil Straßburger kirchenampt (or the three-volume publication as a whole) as a "tract", which seems an incorrect denomination of that volume. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 13:00, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Returning to Appendix A:
It's hard to tell how many of these things involve the particular hymn. In one case that I checked, it didn't. Daniel T-L seems to have been fairly careful at looking at sources (including digital records). Mathsci ( talk) 16:38, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
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This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
These paragraphs currently both present a problem described as "list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations", hence should be tagged {{ more footnotes}} until the problem is resolved. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 12:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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I would like to make some comments on images here—why were some of these were created and which new ones could be used. I will think about this for a while. Mathsci ( talk) 14:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I have noticed that the whole first paragraph of the section of "History and context" seems to have major problems. The main statement about the kirchenampt (i.e. that it is lost) is incorrect: that is explained in one of the main 2015 references. The whole of the kirchenampt is readable. Another basic problem is that the kirchenampt and the only comprehensive version of the Straßburger Gesangbuch (1541) are all intimately related to the writing of Martin Bucer: images of documents by Bucer, Greiter and the printer are easy to find and instructive. In addition the references of Zahn are out of date. They have been superseded by these new versions, "Das Deutsche Kirchenlied. Kritische Gesamtausgabe der Melodien III/1,1" (1993) edited by Joachim Stalmann, Karl-Günther Hartmann and Hans-Otto Korth. The University Library, Cambridge has copies available at M259.b.6.1 in the Anderson Room. I am going to use several new images to modify the page using reliable secondary sources.
The other in-line citations seem fine at the moment: it is probably worth archiving that now. If any user has any reasonable questions about later paragraphs, they should explain it in a short and concise way. The source of Tocmé-Latter has been invaluable: it has unearthed documents—sometimes cryptic electronic links—that have been hard to find. It seems I am the only person to have used those on wikipedia. Mathsci ( talk) 06:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
I am going to handle these one at a time to resolve sourcing problems. Two of the main problems will be discussed later. The first concerns how to identify the key of a hymn, printed in text, such as Schemmeli's 1736 "Musikalisches Gesang-Buch." The second concerns a cantata-type movement omitted in the section. I will start with the first problematic source. Mathsci ( talk) 12:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Mathsci ( talk) 15:49, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
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Robin Leaver is one of the foremost scholars on Bach: he is editor-in-chief of the Routledge Research Companion to Johann Sebastian Bach. Specialising in musicology and theology at Princeton University, he is also an Anglican minister and organist. In the 1990s, Anne Leahy met Leaver in Princeton, when she was studying at University College, Dublin. Leahy shared the same interests and passions as Leaver, and he became one of her mentors; in 2002 he served as part of the jury for her Ph.D. dissertation at the University of Utrecht. His Netherlandish supervisor in Utrecht predeceased her in 2006; Leahy herself died in 2007, leaving her project for a book on the Leipzig chorales incomplete, particularly the unwritten concluding chapter. Leaver assisted in preparing a 2011 edition, including a long obituary and a newly written introduction. As explained by Leaver (and in David Yearsley's 2008 review of Leaver's Festschrift), the book was not in a wholly satisfactory state vis-a-vis the balance between music and theology. Leahy's interest in the particular article was an off-shoot of Leaver's specialty. Basing himself on Lutheran hymnbooks centred mostly around Erfurt, Leaver explains how hymn sheets or hymn books could be used as codes for keys and pitch in Thuringian congregations, allowing the most popular hymn tunes, melodia suavissima, to be easily recognised. The left hand side allows the key to be found from the hymn text (or an incipit); on the right hand side, if needed the organist can check the pitch (this involves the standard baroque method of transposition). Leaver explains these is a number of examples, most notably in the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch", printed and published with Bach's aid. In this example, page 401, No. 587, of the "Gesangbuch" is used for the key of D in "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" [7]; in page 60, No. 56, the incipit is used for the same melody but a different text in the key of G. [8] Mathsci ( talk) 08:51, 9 April 2018 (UTC) |
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Conclusions. Firstly, the Grove Music Online with its large number of specialist scholars is the first recourse for creating the content of this section. That is still ongoing. Secondly the discussion of keys has been solved. Indeed in Robin Leaver's chapter on Chorales in the Routledge Research Companion, page 371, he already gave the examples for "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and the 1736 Schemelli Gesangbuch. Items on Tomita and Leaver cover almost all that is needed here for Bach's Chorales, including details of the principal copyists; Tomita refers to Dürr Chr and Dürr Chr 2, which are the standard references for chronology. Hans-Joachim Schulze also covers this in Bach Perspectives 2 (1996)—see page 40. Lastly the large number of missing entries in the section has to be corrected. I will give more details of this, but I certainly will not be rushed into things. Mathsci ( talk) 18:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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@Francis Schonken: It is impossible for there to be an edit war with only one editor. That is, if Mathsci is edit warring, then so are you. There is a simple solution for any edit war on this article and its talk page—find something else to do until Mathsci has finished his current work. Johnuniq ( talk) 07:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
In the Routledge Research Companion to JSB (2017), Yo Tomita and others have explained in great detail how Alfred Dürr determined the chronology of Bach's vocal works. The references are to Dürr Chr and Dürr Chr 2. These are very famous references which have stood up to all later checks. In the Routledge Research Companion, those iconic references are the first to appear. Mathsci ( talk) 14:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Why has Francis Schonken been posting this on wikipedia?
"Leipzig, Stadtbibliothek Leipzig, Musikbibliothek: D-LEb Peters Ms. R 18 = Choralsammlung Dietel (Depositum im Bach-Archiv)".
Bach Digital. 2017. Retrieved 4 June 2017. (description of Dietel's collection of four-part chorales by Johann Sebastian Bach) Mathsci ( talk) 20:20, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
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I don't see any speculation. I have written about 11 different composers in detail. For Bach, the content involves (a) how the manuscript was unearthed in Leipzig and (b) how keys can be determined using incipits written in the region and period of Bach. Both are interesting but not riveting. A diversion. The attempt to use raw Bach archive material to create wikipedia content is just misleading and confusing for general readers of wikipedia. In all these cases, proper scholarship is easy to identify from reliable secondary sources: that is the way to write content. Why mislead and confuse the reader? Mathsci ( talk) 01:41, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Moving to the first sentence of the paragraph: it contains "... composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276 ...", which is WP:OR. For most of the chorale harmonisations in the Dietel collection it is not known when Bach composed them: it contains a few from cantatas and other larger works that have a precise date, but for most of them, including BWV 276, it is not known when they were composed – c. 1735 is no more than a terminus ante quem for these settings, because that's the date of Dietel's copy. Bach may well have composed it ten or more years earlier. That's what the reliable sources say, so the WP:OR should go. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 00:34, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
The text you wrote for the Bach segment was like this two days ago:
Bach also composed a four-part setting, BWV 267, which appeared around 1735 in the Dietel manuscript. That harmonisation is found as well in G major and in A-flat major in 18th-century chorale collections, both as "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and as "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld". For instance, its publication in the Breitkopf edition of the 1780s has it as No. 5 in G major under the former title and as No. 308 in A-flat major under the latter title.
It involved the manipulation of the primary source from the entry in the Bach archive. [16] The way of using the raw list as a source for the article is just original research and synthesis. The fact that Luke Dahn's self-published document erroneously lists Matthias Greiter as the originator of the hymn tune has been ignored by Francis Schonken: it shows that Dahn is not a reliable secondary source. The best idea is to modify the first sentence to remove everything written by Francis Schonken. The creation of the link/article Dietel manuscript seems to have been created by Francis Schonken as some kind of trophy war. No normal wikipedian would have created that type of misleading link or article. Is this not just grudge or revenge editing? The pattern has been repeated many times: standard editing of the article continues for a period until Francis Schonken decides to put a spanner in the works, as some new ploy.
But I don't know how this is going to be handled by the arbitration committee. It's a bit similar to the "Echigo mole" problem, which involved five years of trolling 2009–2013. There has also been harassment off-wiki, which has been mentioned by a former administrator (again it concerns the arbitration committee). It's all the same kind of thing. Mathsci ( talk) 07:26, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
I propose to replace:
moved below, see "entire paragraph, current (with references)"
currently the first half of the fifth paragraph of An Wasserflüssen Babylon#Vocal settings, containing original research as detailed above, and veering off-topic w.r.t. the topic of this article (Dachstein's "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" hymn), also as explained above, by:
moved below, see "entire paragraph, proposed (with references)"
For clarity:
The above sums up the most apparent advantages enough, I suppose, to proceed with such replacement. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 08:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC); updated, see full paragraph proposal below 10:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once.
Entire paragraph, current (with references):
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 276. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. [1] [2] [3] Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once. [4] [5]
Entire paragraph, proposed (with references):
Bach also composed a chorale harmonisation, BWV 267, which appeared around 1735 in the Dietel manuscript. [6] [7] [8] That harmonisation is found as well in G major and in A-flat major in 18th-century chorale collections, both as "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" and as "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld". [7] For instance, its publication in the Breitkopf edition of the 1780s has it as No. 5 in G major under the former title and as No. 308 in A-flat major under the latter title. [7] [9] In Schemelli's 1736 hymnal, to which Bach collaborated, the key of the "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" hymn, No. 587, is given as "D", and that of seven other hymns sung to the same melody, including "Ein Lämmlein geht und trägt die Schuld", No. 259, as "G". [10] [11]
notes, references, sources
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References
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This would be the entire paragraph, as suggested. Same reasoning as above; plus, phrasing somewhat clearer for the second half. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:35, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Replaced per above, replicating the replaced content here:
Bach also composed a number of four-part chorale harmonisations around 1735, including one setting of "An Wasserflüssen Babylon", BWV 267 [1]. The main copyist was Johann Ludwig Dietel, one of Bach's pupils from the Thomasschule zu Leipzig. Although considered to have been lost by Philipp Spitta, Dietel's manuscript (R.18)—containing one hundred and fifty chorales—was discovered recently in the Musikbibliothek der Stadt, Leipzig. [2] [3] [4] Robin Leaver, the musicologist and theologian, has explained how to determine the key of a hymn tune from the text of an incipit: these apply to Bach's period and region. An example of Leaver's method is given from the 1736 Schemelli "Gesangbuch," taking "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" as the incipit: the key of G occurs 7 times and D once.
References