This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article is within the scope of
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Page move
Considering the bolded page title "Surat an-Nas", should this page be moved to "Surat an-Nas", rather than its current location of An-Nas?--
Commander Keane 06:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
88.153.92.14720:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"Surat an-Nas" means The Surah Which Men, and that title is a syntax error and doesn't make any sense. The correct name of this surah is "Surat (Al)-Nas", The Surah of Men.reply
(EC) From "
Arabic definite article", my emphasis: The sound of the final -l consonant can vary; when followed by a
sun letter such as n, it is replaced by the sound of the initial consonant of the following noun, thus doubling it. For example: for "the Nile", one does not say al-Nīl, but an-Nīl. This affects only the pronunciation and not the spelling of the article A Google search turns up al Nās in equal measure:
JorgeLaArdilla (
talk)
09:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I admit that
Ngram supports "al-Nas" in books.
[1] However, An-Nas leads on the first page of Google searches; and using quotes, Googe finds 1.9 million results for "An Nas" compared to 1 million for "Al Nas". Please paste a link for equal measure on Google search. –
FayenaticLondon09:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:MOSISLAM, "As a general rule, diacritical marks over and under the letters should not be used in article titles or text." So the title should be Al-Nas or An-Nas.
WP:MOSAR says, "Both the non-assimilated (al-) or the assimilated (ad-) form appear in various standards of transliteration, and both allow the recreation of the original Arabic. For this Manual of Style, assimilated letters will be used, as it aids readers in the correct pronunciation." MOSAR is just a proposed guideline though and the sun letter issue is
disputed. Personally I'd prefer Al-Nas. --
Cerebellum (
talk)
12:09, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
JorgeLaArdilla: Stop moving pages before reaching consensus! Most sura articles used titles and leads with a common style, so you are in fact acting against the consensus of other editors. You have been asked to discuss such changes, yet you continue to make them against other editors. If you don't get others to agree with you on talk pages, your edits will only get reverted. Diacritical marks should not be used in article tiles or text, and starting the lead with lowercase 'al nās' as you did is just nonsense. Both An-Nas and Al-Nas are fine by me.
Tokenzero (
talk)
12:07, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
My main point is that there is no consensus for the opposite. You should always seek one before moving any series of pages. This is only more evident from the fact that your moves keep getting reverted, on various articles, by various editors.
Now for existing consensus, the most obvious example is that the lead of articles starting with 'al' should not start with lowercase — are you also questioning that? (The infobox usually contains more technical information, so diacritics are more suitable there; as they are in the first sentence of the lead, and whenever discussing linguistics, e.g. etymology sections).
Tokenzero (
talk)
12:56, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Even the edit summary "Narrated by at-Trim idea"
[2] is plain wrong.
Consistent use of "surah" changed to a inconsistent use of sura, surah, Surah, although he changed this to "chapter" a few edits later
"God" changed to "Allah", although he selectively reverted himself on this a few edits later
"Name" paragraph: phrase moved to next line, changing clear sentences into meaningless text; when he edited this a few edits later, it was only to insert a space, not to repair the damage.
Right-alignment in a table that has only English text, no Arabic or numerical columns
Garbage at end of citation "HTML, PDF, Free Download"
at-Tirm idhee changed deliberately to "at-Trim idea" as referred to in the edit summary. The Wikipedia article is
Al-Tirmidhi, and the link
At-Tirmidhi is used at the start of the "Implcations" section, so the first was better.
Im aam Al-Albaanee changed to "I'm aam Al-Albaanee". This is about Imam
Al-Albani, so the apostrophe is completely wrong.
Empty half row added at end of table
I have no exe to grind on "surah" or "chapter", but it would be appropriate to seek consensus at
WT:ISLAM before making wholesale changes to articles on surahs.
I believe most of the garbage was introduced by IP edits and only accidentally, temporarily reintroduced by JorgeLaArdilla. Changes by JorgeLaArdilla amount to
this diff where most changes are beneficial (a nice addition to the lead, a good rearranging of section, a lot of wikization) or neutral. The only thing I'd complain about are the rendering of the title in the lead, the edit summaries, and (less importantly) the introduced diacritics.
Tokenzero (
talk)
13:33, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, but JorgeLaArdilla reinstated the IP garbage edits twice on 29 May (
special:diff/899342935 and
special:diff/899351122), ignored the request to discuss them per
WP:BRD (
special:diff/899349525), and only corrected them after I spelled them out to him in the above post. In the intervening two days he moved the page again and then neglected it (editing other pages instead
[3]) until I prompted him to sort it out, above. That is why I disputed his claim that "I am trying to clear up"; he wasn't, but he has since done so. –
FayenaticLondon15:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
This article is within the scope of
WikiProject Religious texts, a project which is currently considered to be defunct.Religious textsWikipedia:WikiProject Religious textsTemplate:WikiProject Religious textsReligious texts articles
Page move
Considering the bolded page title "Surat an-Nas", should this page be moved to "Surat an-Nas", rather than its current location of An-Nas?--
Commander Keane 06:11, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
88.153.92.14720:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
"Surat an-Nas" means The Surah Which Men, and that title is a syntax error and doesn't make any sense. The correct name of this surah is "Surat (Al)-Nas", The Surah of Men.reply
(EC) From "
Arabic definite article", my emphasis: The sound of the final -l consonant can vary; when followed by a
sun letter such as n, it is replaced by the sound of the initial consonant of the following noun, thus doubling it. For example: for "the Nile", one does not say al-Nīl, but an-Nīl. This affects only the pronunciation and not the spelling of the article A Google search turns up al Nās in equal measure:
JorgeLaArdilla (
talk)
09:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
I admit that
Ngram supports "al-Nas" in books.
[1] However, An-Nas leads on the first page of Google searches; and using quotes, Googe finds 1.9 million results for "An Nas" compared to 1 million for "Al Nas". Please paste a link for equal measure on Google search. –
FayenaticLondon09:51, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:MOSISLAM, "As a general rule, diacritical marks over and under the letters should not be used in article titles or text." So the title should be Al-Nas or An-Nas.
WP:MOSAR says, "Both the non-assimilated (al-) or the assimilated (ad-) form appear in various standards of transliteration, and both allow the recreation of the original Arabic. For this Manual of Style, assimilated letters will be used, as it aids readers in the correct pronunciation." MOSAR is just a proposed guideline though and the sun letter issue is
disputed. Personally I'd prefer Al-Nas. --
Cerebellum (
talk)
12:09, 31 May 2019 (UTC)reply
@
JorgeLaArdilla: Stop moving pages before reaching consensus! Most sura articles used titles and leads with a common style, so you are in fact acting against the consensus of other editors. You have been asked to discuss such changes, yet you continue to make them against other editors. If you don't get others to agree with you on talk pages, your edits will only get reverted. Diacritical marks should not be used in article tiles or text, and starting the lead with lowercase 'al nās' as you did is just nonsense. Both An-Nas and Al-Nas are fine by me.
Tokenzero (
talk)
12:07, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
My main point is that there is no consensus for the opposite. You should always seek one before moving any series of pages. This is only more evident from the fact that your moves keep getting reverted, on various articles, by various editors.
Now for existing consensus, the most obvious example is that the lead of articles starting with 'al' should not start with lowercase — are you also questioning that? (The infobox usually contains more technical information, so diacritics are more suitable there; as they are in the first sentence of the lead, and whenever discussing linguistics, e.g. etymology sections).
Tokenzero (
talk)
12:56, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Even the edit summary "Narrated by at-Trim idea"
[2] is plain wrong.
Consistent use of "surah" changed to a inconsistent use of sura, surah, Surah, although he changed this to "chapter" a few edits later
"God" changed to "Allah", although he selectively reverted himself on this a few edits later
"Name" paragraph: phrase moved to next line, changing clear sentences into meaningless text; when he edited this a few edits later, it was only to insert a space, not to repair the damage.
Right-alignment in a table that has only English text, no Arabic or numerical columns
Garbage at end of citation "HTML, PDF, Free Download"
at-Tirm idhee changed deliberately to "at-Trim idea" as referred to in the edit summary. The Wikipedia article is
Al-Tirmidhi, and the link
At-Tirmidhi is used at the start of the "Implcations" section, so the first was better.
Im aam Al-Albaanee changed to "I'm aam Al-Albaanee". This is about Imam
Al-Albani, so the apostrophe is completely wrong.
Empty half row added at end of table
I have no exe to grind on "surah" or "chapter", but it would be appropriate to seek consensus at
WT:ISLAM before making wholesale changes to articles on surahs.
I believe most of the garbage was introduced by IP edits and only accidentally, temporarily reintroduced by JorgeLaArdilla. Changes by JorgeLaArdilla amount to
this diff where most changes are beneficial (a nice addition to the lead, a good rearranging of section, a lot of wikization) or neutral. The only thing I'd complain about are the rendering of the title in the lead, the edit summaries, and (less importantly) the introduced diacritics.
Tokenzero (
talk)
13:33, 1 June 2019 (UTC)reply
Yes, but JorgeLaArdilla reinstated the IP garbage edits twice on 29 May (
special:diff/899342935 and
special:diff/899351122), ignored the request to discuss them per
WP:BRD (
special:diff/899349525), and only corrected them after I spelled them out to him in the above post. In the intervening two days he moved the page again and then neglected it (editing other pages instead
[3]) until I prompted him to sort it out, above. That is why I disputed his claim that "I am trying to clear up"; he wasn't, but he has since done so. –
FayenaticLondon15:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)reply