This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
As @ User:Nbauman and I discussed above, to compromise and keep the text heavily compressed, we were thinking of including the following sentence at the end of the criticism section:
“Several other articles have also been critical about the movie. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]”
However, we should apparently preferably keep it to around 6-8 references to avoid the term linkfarm. The question then is which of the above articles that are considered the most notable and informative? Helpful input would be very appreciated. Thank you. David A ( talk) 08:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
@ DHeyward:: Please do not edit war on the article, or you could be blocked from further editing.
Your personal views, and those of your friends or family, are important. They are valued, and must be respected. However, per WP policy ( WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV), these views carry exactly zero weight in editorial decisions. I served in the Israeli military, and I, as well as my family and friends (almost all of whom are veterans), each have our own personal views of the film and of Kyle and Eastwood, but my personal views are worthless to Wikipedia. The same for David A's views, or anybody and everybody else's. The only views that have non-zero weight are citations from published sources. If you want your views (or your friends' or family's) expressed in the article, get them published elsewhere, and then we can debate on this talk page if they merit inclusion in this WP article.
Independent of whether you like it or not, the criticism of the political/ historical/ social/ cultural/ racial/ ethnic/ moral/ ethical as well as other aspects of the film (i.e. not related to e.g. acting, cinematography, sets, costumes, storytelling, editing, slick presentation, etc), and the criticism of Kyle's own words and deeds, merits inclusion here, as long as it is published in sources that are reliable for the specific context of the 'controversies' section, e.g. Counterpunch, Salon, TheIntercept, AntiWar, MondoWeiss, as well as other reliable sources. IjonTichy ( talk) 16:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
This could be a case study in slanted presentation. The quote in our article is:
"In the universe of his films - a universe where the existence of evil is a given - violence is a moral necessity, albeit one that often exacts a cost from those who must wield it in the service of good. The real-life merits of this idea are arguable, to say the least."
In the linked source, that last sentence is the first sentence of the next paragraph:
"The real-life merits of this idea are arguable, to say the least. As an ethical touchstone or a political principle, it certainly has its dangers. But a lot of great movies, including several of Mr. Eastwood’s, arise from the simple premise of a fight to the death between good guys and bad guys. 'American Sniper' is not quite among them, but much of its considerable power derives from the clarity and sincerity of its bedrock convictions. Less a war movie than a western - the story of a lone gunslinger facing down his nemesis in a dusty, lawless place - it is blunt and effective, though also troubling." [1]
Combining parts of two paragraphs, and ending the quote just where the second paragraph begins gives a misleading impression of the review.
What we need to do is identify the common themes from main-stream reviews and present them, with representative citations. Tom Harrison Talk 19:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The 'Controversies' section currently contains a quote from Michelle Obama. This quote isn't raising a controversy; quite the opposite, it's admiring of the film. I would remove it, but a comment from someone as high-profile as the First Lady is probably worth including somewhere. Perhaps it belongs in the general Reception section instead? Robofish ( talk) 02:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
As other users have stated that we should start categorising the Controversies section into different sentiments, as a first step/draft, I have now read through all of the articles referenced within it, and attempted to summarise the contents into brief snippets as best that I can (which admittedly doesn't mean much). Regardless, I hope that this can serve as a springboard for others to help to more easily structure and organise the sentences of the section into eventually flowing better as a coherent text:
The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee said that the release of the movie coincided with increased threats against Arabs and Muslims. [1]
Matt Taibbi, of Rolling Stone Magazine, considered the real problem of the movie to be that it is popular and makes sense to so many people, despite idiotically and arrogantly turning the complicated moral morass and mass-bloodshed of the Iraq occupation into a black and white baby food fairy tale that merely options to go for cheap applause, without presenting the historical context of the disastrous effects of the invasion. He also stated that both the movie and the critics have made a mistake in focusing on the merits of a single soldier, rather than the people who put him there to fight in the first place. [2]
Chris Hedges, of Truthdig, criticized the film for lionizing "the most despicable aspects of U.S. society—the gun culture, the blind adoration of the military, the belief that we have an innate right as a “Christian” nation to exterminate the “lesser breeds” of the earth, a grotesque hypermasculinity that banishes compassion and pity, a denial of inconvenient facts and historical truth, and a belittling of critical thinking and artistic expression." [3]
Zaid Jilani in Salon criticized that the movie suggests that the Iraq War was in response To 9/11. That it fabricates most of the story concerning Kyle's opposing nemesis. That it portrays Chris Kyle as tormented by his actions, despite that this is absent from the book the film is based on. That he supposedly told various lies concerning other issues. And that he only donated 2% of the book profits to veteran's charity, while claiming otherwise. [4]
John Wight, writing for Russia Today, lamented that, similarly to how Western movies used to portray Indians, American Sniper depicted the Iraqi people as a dehumanized mass of savages, which the white man was in the process of civilizing. He also stated that anything resembling balance and perspective was sacrificed to the more pressing needs of US propaganda. [5]
Max Blumenthal, of The Real News, stated that the film distorts the truth, including that during Chris Kyle’s first tour in Iraq in 2003, there was no al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia; as well as that locally based resistance fighters were portrayed as foreign fighters with international ambitions to kill Americans. He also considered the movie to have turned into a vehicle for ongoing Islamophobia-inspiring culture wars, which taken together inspire hatred and incite violence against Muslims and Arabs, as exemplified by the following trend of extreme threats through social media. [6]
Professor Noam Chomsky, and comedian Bill Maher criticized the film and Kyle's popularity with audiences. [7] [8]
Lindy West of The Guardian criticized that much of the US right wing appeared to have seized upon American Sniper with the same unconsidered reverence that they would to the flag or the national anthem, and that the film had been flattened into a symbol to serve the interests of an ideology that runs counter to the ethos of the film itself. She stated that a stream of supposed patriots have rushed in to call for the rape, torture, or death of critics, in defence of a simplified view of country and culture, without any nuance, subtlety or ambiguity. She noted that you can support your country while thinking critically about its actions and its citizenry, and that many truths can be true at once. [9]
Sarah Pulliam Bailey of The Washington Post displayed the sentiments expressed in quotations taken from Kyle, contrasting Kyle’s Christian faith with quotes of self-stated deeply rooted hatred, complete ambivalence towards the Iraqis, a kept in check will to kill anybody with a Koran, and a clear conscience about all the people he had killed. [10]
Zack Beauchamp of Vox considered the film to wildly misrepresent the truth of the war to the point of whitewashing history. This includes falsely suggesting that the United States invaded Iraq due to the September 11 attacks; presenting the fighting as a response against al-Qaeda at the outset of the war, rather than something it used as a recruitment tool; portraying Iraqis in general as savages and evil terrorists; and that the simplified good versus evil narrative implies that opposing the war is tantamount to betrayal. He considered the worst aspect of the movie to be that it condescended by acting as if Americans cannot handle moral ambiguity, and that those affected by the war deserve to have that story told honestly. [11]
Dennis Jet, of The New Republic, criticized Kyle’s lamentations about the existence of rules of engagement, and stated that the citizens that elected president George W. Bush had culpability in pulling Kyle’s triggers. [12]
Alex von Tunzelmann, of The Guardian criticized the simplified black and white portrayal of the Iraq war, and the distortion of facts into unreliable myths based upon previous legends. [13]
Film historian Max Alvarez, in CounterPunch, lamented that a heroic portrayal of snipers risks to influence certain audience members to regard the proceedings as a tutorial. [14]
US Marine Ross Caputi criticized the moral disengagement of society’s celebratory reactions to Kyle and his story, despite its factual inaccuracies, and his participation in the destruction of the city of Fallujah. [15]
Janet Weil, of Antiwar.com, considered American Sniper as a very dangerous film, due to objectifying the Iraqis into kills to be counted, turning children into legitimate targets, and invaders into good guys, while avoiding more complex political and historical information, to turn the narrative into an isolated, tragic white male cliché. [16]
David Masciotra, of Salon, criticized the movie’s focus on physical rather than moral courage as the ultimate manly virtue, and a dangerous glorification of violence, as well as a simplified video game conception of masculinity, and lamented that the former gains more attention and adulation through award ceremonies and ticket booths. [17]
Former Cavalry Scout Sniper Garett Reppenhagen stated that he didn’t view Iraqi civilians as savages, but as part of a friendly culture for which the movie has furthered ignorance, fear, and bigotry. He also criticized the movie’s lack of nuance, or political and regional context, and that the limited view it offered would be perceived as the true story about the war, with the reservation that it is just a movie, but that this also means that the audience should educate themselves before jumping to conclusions. [18]
Cinematographer Paul Edwards wrote that the key dangerous ethical problem with the film is that, rather than presenting killing as a regrettable last option for good men trying to do the right thing, all that matters to the protagonist is that revenge and retribution are ferocious and absolute, as a simplistic, cartoonish, vacuous, brutal, sadistic, and complete destruction of “evildoers”, in an infantile mutilation of the classic heros journey. [19]
One of the reasons for the Iraq Resolution was 9/11. The Vox piece in hindsight is debateable but in realtime there was a connection made between Al Qaeda and the Iraq War (77% of senators signed on to that belief) and it is expressly listed in our article as a reason. The question is how wide is the view that the film depicted the belief at the time as being controversial? I'm betting all the troops were expecting to find WMD's and Al Qaeda and all the other laundry list items listed as a cause so I am not sure the "controversy" is very widespread. -- DHeyward ( talk) 02:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Another point. Chomsky didn't see the film. Not sure how he can be considered a critic of it. -- DHeyward ( talk) 02:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
For a better comparison see the film "Lawrence of Arabia". He talks of "savages" and expressly takes pleasure in an execution on screen. Yet no massive criticism of the film or the protaganist in the article either. Quite the opposite. -- DHeyward ( talk) 07:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/wilkerson.html Politics and Economy: Iraq Pre-War Intelligence PBS Now 2.03.06 Lawrence B. Wilkerson was Chief of Staff at the Department of State from August 2002 to January 2005.
LAWRENCE WILKERSON: It makes me feel terrible. I've said in other places that it was-- constitutes the lowest point in my professional life. My participation in that presentation at the UN constitutes the lowest point in my professional life.
I participated in a hoax on the American people, the international community and the United Nations Security Council. How do you think that makes me feel? Thirty-one years in the United States Army and I more or less end my career with that kind of a blot on my record? That's not a very comforting thing.
DAVID BRANCACCIO: A hoax? That's quite a word.
LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Well, let's face it, it was. It was not a hoax that the Secretary in any way was complicit in. In fact he did his best-- I watched him work. Two AM in the morning on the DCI and the Deputy DCI, John McLaughlin.
And to try and hone the presentation down to what was, in the DCI's own words, a slam dunk. Firm. Iron clad. We threw many things out. We threw the script that Scooter Libby had given the-- Secretary of State. Forty-eight page script on WMD. We threw that out the first day.
And we turned to the National Intelligence estimate as part of the recommendation of George Tenent and my agreement with. But even that turned out to be, in its substantive parts-- that is stockpiles of chemicals, biologicals and production capability that was hot and so forth, and an active nuclear program. The three most essential parts of that presentation turned out to be absolutely false. -- Nbauman ( talk) 17:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 01:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
{{
requested move/dated}}
– I know the movie is recent, but the film article received 6.3 times more views in the last 90 days than the book article. The views for the book article also spiked around the release of the movie, indicating that the book is not the primary topic. [4] [5] With the film receiving unusual amounts of media attention and with it being an Oscar Best Picture nominee, I would imagine the film would remain the primary topic in the long run, making this more than just a case of recentism. – Chase ( talk / contribs) 01:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
As @ User:Nbauman and I discussed above, to compromise and keep the text heavily compressed, we were thinking of including the following sentence at the end of the criticism section:
“Several other articles have also been critical about the movie. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]”
However, we should apparently preferably keep it to around 6-8 references to avoid the term linkfarm. The question then is which of the above articles that are considered the most notable and informative? Helpful input would be very appreciated. Thank you. David A ( talk) 08:07, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
@ DHeyward:: Please do not edit war on the article, or you could be blocked from further editing.
Your personal views, and those of your friends or family, are important. They are valued, and must be respected. However, per WP policy ( WP:NOR, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NPOV), these views carry exactly zero weight in editorial decisions. I served in the Israeli military, and I, as well as my family and friends (almost all of whom are veterans), each have our own personal views of the film and of Kyle and Eastwood, but my personal views are worthless to Wikipedia. The same for David A's views, or anybody and everybody else's. The only views that have non-zero weight are citations from published sources. If you want your views (or your friends' or family's) expressed in the article, get them published elsewhere, and then we can debate on this talk page if they merit inclusion in this WP article.
Independent of whether you like it or not, the criticism of the political/ historical/ social/ cultural/ racial/ ethnic/ moral/ ethical as well as other aspects of the film (i.e. not related to e.g. acting, cinematography, sets, costumes, storytelling, editing, slick presentation, etc), and the criticism of Kyle's own words and deeds, merits inclusion here, as long as it is published in sources that are reliable for the specific context of the 'controversies' section, e.g. Counterpunch, Salon, TheIntercept, AntiWar, MondoWeiss, as well as other reliable sources. IjonTichy ( talk) 16:47, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
This could be a case study in slanted presentation. The quote in our article is:
"In the universe of his films - a universe where the existence of evil is a given - violence is a moral necessity, albeit one that often exacts a cost from those who must wield it in the service of good. The real-life merits of this idea are arguable, to say the least."
In the linked source, that last sentence is the first sentence of the next paragraph:
"The real-life merits of this idea are arguable, to say the least. As an ethical touchstone or a political principle, it certainly has its dangers. But a lot of great movies, including several of Mr. Eastwood’s, arise from the simple premise of a fight to the death between good guys and bad guys. 'American Sniper' is not quite among them, but much of its considerable power derives from the clarity and sincerity of its bedrock convictions. Less a war movie than a western - the story of a lone gunslinger facing down his nemesis in a dusty, lawless place - it is blunt and effective, though also troubling." [1]
Combining parts of two paragraphs, and ending the quote just where the second paragraph begins gives a misleading impression of the review.
What we need to do is identify the common themes from main-stream reviews and present them, with representative citations. Tom Harrison Talk 19:09, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
The 'Controversies' section currently contains a quote from Michelle Obama. This quote isn't raising a controversy; quite the opposite, it's admiring of the film. I would remove it, but a comment from someone as high-profile as the First Lady is probably worth including somewhere. Perhaps it belongs in the general Reception section instead? Robofish ( talk) 02:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
As other users have stated that we should start categorising the Controversies section into different sentiments, as a first step/draft, I have now read through all of the articles referenced within it, and attempted to summarise the contents into brief snippets as best that I can (which admittedly doesn't mean much). Regardless, I hope that this can serve as a springboard for others to help to more easily structure and organise the sentences of the section into eventually flowing better as a coherent text:
The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee said that the release of the movie coincided with increased threats against Arabs and Muslims. [1]
Matt Taibbi, of Rolling Stone Magazine, considered the real problem of the movie to be that it is popular and makes sense to so many people, despite idiotically and arrogantly turning the complicated moral morass and mass-bloodshed of the Iraq occupation into a black and white baby food fairy tale that merely options to go for cheap applause, without presenting the historical context of the disastrous effects of the invasion. He also stated that both the movie and the critics have made a mistake in focusing on the merits of a single soldier, rather than the people who put him there to fight in the first place. [2]
Chris Hedges, of Truthdig, criticized the film for lionizing "the most despicable aspects of U.S. society—the gun culture, the blind adoration of the military, the belief that we have an innate right as a “Christian” nation to exterminate the “lesser breeds” of the earth, a grotesque hypermasculinity that banishes compassion and pity, a denial of inconvenient facts and historical truth, and a belittling of critical thinking and artistic expression." [3]
Zaid Jilani in Salon criticized that the movie suggests that the Iraq War was in response To 9/11. That it fabricates most of the story concerning Kyle's opposing nemesis. That it portrays Chris Kyle as tormented by his actions, despite that this is absent from the book the film is based on. That he supposedly told various lies concerning other issues. And that he only donated 2% of the book profits to veteran's charity, while claiming otherwise. [4]
John Wight, writing for Russia Today, lamented that, similarly to how Western movies used to portray Indians, American Sniper depicted the Iraqi people as a dehumanized mass of savages, which the white man was in the process of civilizing. He also stated that anything resembling balance and perspective was sacrificed to the more pressing needs of US propaganda. [5]
Max Blumenthal, of The Real News, stated that the film distorts the truth, including that during Chris Kyle’s first tour in Iraq in 2003, there was no al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia; as well as that locally based resistance fighters were portrayed as foreign fighters with international ambitions to kill Americans. He also considered the movie to have turned into a vehicle for ongoing Islamophobia-inspiring culture wars, which taken together inspire hatred and incite violence against Muslims and Arabs, as exemplified by the following trend of extreme threats through social media. [6]
Professor Noam Chomsky, and comedian Bill Maher criticized the film and Kyle's popularity with audiences. [7] [8]
Lindy West of The Guardian criticized that much of the US right wing appeared to have seized upon American Sniper with the same unconsidered reverence that they would to the flag or the national anthem, and that the film had been flattened into a symbol to serve the interests of an ideology that runs counter to the ethos of the film itself. She stated that a stream of supposed patriots have rushed in to call for the rape, torture, or death of critics, in defence of a simplified view of country and culture, without any nuance, subtlety or ambiguity. She noted that you can support your country while thinking critically about its actions and its citizenry, and that many truths can be true at once. [9]
Sarah Pulliam Bailey of The Washington Post displayed the sentiments expressed in quotations taken from Kyle, contrasting Kyle’s Christian faith with quotes of self-stated deeply rooted hatred, complete ambivalence towards the Iraqis, a kept in check will to kill anybody with a Koran, and a clear conscience about all the people he had killed. [10]
Zack Beauchamp of Vox considered the film to wildly misrepresent the truth of the war to the point of whitewashing history. This includes falsely suggesting that the United States invaded Iraq due to the September 11 attacks; presenting the fighting as a response against al-Qaeda at the outset of the war, rather than something it used as a recruitment tool; portraying Iraqis in general as savages and evil terrorists; and that the simplified good versus evil narrative implies that opposing the war is tantamount to betrayal. He considered the worst aspect of the movie to be that it condescended by acting as if Americans cannot handle moral ambiguity, and that those affected by the war deserve to have that story told honestly. [11]
Dennis Jet, of The New Republic, criticized Kyle’s lamentations about the existence of rules of engagement, and stated that the citizens that elected president George W. Bush had culpability in pulling Kyle’s triggers. [12]
Alex von Tunzelmann, of The Guardian criticized the simplified black and white portrayal of the Iraq war, and the distortion of facts into unreliable myths based upon previous legends. [13]
Film historian Max Alvarez, in CounterPunch, lamented that a heroic portrayal of snipers risks to influence certain audience members to regard the proceedings as a tutorial. [14]
US Marine Ross Caputi criticized the moral disengagement of society’s celebratory reactions to Kyle and his story, despite its factual inaccuracies, and his participation in the destruction of the city of Fallujah. [15]
Janet Weil, of Antiwar.com, considered American Sniper as a very dangerous film, due to objectifying the Iraqis into kills to be counted, turning children into legitimate targets, and invaders into good guys, while avoiding more complex political and historical information, to turn the narrative into an isolated, tragic white male cliché. [16]
David Masciotra, of Salon, criticized the movie’s focus on physical rather than moral courage as the ultimate manly virtue, and a dangerous glorification of violence, as well as a simplified video game conception of masculinity, and lamented that the former gains more attention and adulation through award ceremonies and ticket booths. [17]
Former Cavalry Scout Sniper Garett Reppenhagen stated that he didn’t view Iraqi civilians as savages, but as part of a friendly culture for which the movie has furthered ignorance, fear, and bigotry. He also criticized the movie’s lack of nuance, or political and regional context, and that the limited view it offered would be perceived as the true story about the war, with the reservation that it is just a movie, but that this also means that the audience should educate themselves before jumping to conclusions. [18]
Cinematographer Paul Edwards wrote that the key dangerous ethical problem with the film is that, rather than presenting killing as a regrettable last option for good men trying to do the right thing, all that matters to the protagonist is that revenge and retribution are ferocious and absolute, as a simplistic, cartoonish, vacuous, brutal, sadistic, and complete destruction of “evildoers”, in an infantile mutilation of the classic heros journey. [19]
One of the reasons for the Iraq Resolution was 9/11. The Vox piece in hindsight is debateable but in realtime there was a connection made between Al Qaeda and the Iraq War (77% of senators signed on to that belief) and it is expressly listed in our article as a reason. The question is how wide is the view that the film depicted the belief at the time as being controversial? I'm betting all the troops were expecting to find WMD's and Al Qaeda and all the other laundry list items listed as a cause so I am not sure the "controversy" is very widespread. -- DHeyward ( talk) 02:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
Another point. Chomsky didn't see the film. Not sure how he can be considered a critic of it. -- DHeyward ( talk) 02:20, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
For a better comparison see the film "Lawrence of Arabia". He talks of "savages" and expressly takes pleasure in an execution on screen. Yet no massive criticism of the film or the protaganist in the article either. Quite the opposite. -- DHeyward ( talk) 07:40, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/wilkerson.html Politics and Economy: Iraq Pre-War Intelligence PBS Now 2.03.06 Lawrence B. Wilkerson was Chief of Staff at the Department of State from August 2002 to January 2005.
LAWRENCE WILKERSON: It makes me feel terrible. I've said in other places that it was-- constitutes the lowest point in my professional life. My participation in that presentation at the UN constitutes the lowest point in my professional life.
I participated in a hoax on the American people, the international community and the United Nations Security Council. How do you think that makes me feel? Thirty-one years in the United States Army and I more or less end my career with that kind of a blot on my record? That's not a very comforting thing.
DAVID BRANCACCIO: A hoax? That's quite a word.
LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Well, let's face it, it was. It was not a hoax that the Secretary in any way was complicit in. In fact he did his best-- I watched him work. Two AM in the morning on the DCI and the Deputy DCI, John McLaughlin.
And to try and hone the presentation down to what was, in the DCI's own words, a slam dunk. Firm. Iron clad. We threw many things out. We threw the script that Scooter Libby had given the-- Secretary of State. Forty-eight page script on WMD. We threw that out the first day.
And we turned to the National Intelligence estimate as part of the recommendation of George Tenent and my agreement with. But even that turned out to be, in its substantive parts-- that is stockpiles of chemicals, biologicals and production capability that was hot and so forth, and an active nuclear program. The three most essential parts of that presentation turned out to be absolutely false. -- Nbauman ( talk) 17:06, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. EdJohnston ( talk) 01:08, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
{{
requested move/dated}}
– I know the movie is recent, but the film article received 6.3 times more views in the last 90 days than the book article. The views for the book article also spiked around the release of the movie, indicating that the book is not the primary topic. [4] [5] With the film receiving unusual amounts of media attention and with it being an Oscar Best Picture nominee, I would imagine the film would remain the primary topic in the long run, making this more than just a case of recentism. – Chase ( talk / contribs) 01:40, 31 January 2015 (UTC)