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In an attempt to put an end to the edit-warring, I combined the images into a block of photos.
Here's an explanation of why I put the pictures where I did:
There you have it. Please discuss changes here rather than starting another edit war. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 04:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Beats me. I'll see if I can fix it. —
Malik Shabazz (
talk ·
contribs)
20:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is somehow confusing: the article states there is about 3750000 Jews in New York metropolitan area, and it says this is 9.3% of NY population. But link provided there to the article "New York metropolitan area" clearly shows us a page where the number of New Yorkers is something above 18800000. That would make the Jews some 20% of NY population. Or, if we use the biggest estimation on this page, which is exactly 21,961,994 inhabitants of NY met. area, still a percentage of the Jews would be much higher than 9.3%, it would be some 17%. Could someone explain, or correct this? Tivran ( talk) 04:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I noticed there is no photo of as famous Jewish natural scientist although it is considered one of the fields Jewish Americans have made large contributions to. I think it would be appropriate to replace one of the entertainment or jurisdiction personalities by a natural scientist, I think Albert Einstein or Richrad Feynman would be a good choice. 88.77.203.29 ( talk) 20:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Grouchomarxpromophoto.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 07:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know about demographic data of American Jews like natural increasing rates, fertility rates, divorcing rates and so on...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.111.56 ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following poorly sourced original research to Talk: for further discussion:
Today, American Jews exert a disproportionate force in American politics, some in the form of Israel lobby groups. Mitchell Bard writes, "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor," citing that Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group. While 2.3% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, states which are enough alone to elect the president. American Jews are also major contributors to political causes.
The claim is sourced to these two articles: [1] [2] The second is a dead link. The first is a single article from a single source. In addition, the "Israel lobby" is not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination, and the author of the article doesn't reach the same conclusion as the author of this paragraph. Jayjg (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, since I haven't seen any objections regarding high voter turnout in key electoral states or major political contributions, I'm going to assume people are OK with them and reinsert them on the article. If I'm wrong, I'll willingly revert.-- Loodog ( talk) 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know about demographic data of American Jews like natural increasing rates, fertility rates, divorcing rates and so on...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.111.56 ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following poorly sourced original research to Talk: for further discussion:
Today, American Jews exert a disproportionate force in American politics, some in the form of Israel lobby groups. Mitchell Bard writes, "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor," citing that Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group. While 2.3% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, states which are enough alone to elect the president. American Jews are also major contributors to political causes.
The claim is sourced to these two articles: [3] [4] The second is a dead link. The first is a single article from a single source. In addition, the "Israel lobby" is not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination, and the author of the article doesn't reach the same conclusion as the author of this paragraph. Jayjg (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, since I haven't seen any objections regarding high voter turnout in key electoral states or major political contributions, I'm going to assume people are OK with them and reinsert them on the article. If I'm wrong, I'll willingly revert.-- Loodog ( talk) 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I've found a fascinating article [5] that explains how the Jewish vote is so influential: political and media power are overestimated, Jews have political importance because they vote in large numbers in swing states and are a swayable bloc because of Israel. Didn't know if anyone would raise objection to adding this since these are, of course, blanket statements about a large group of people. Thoughts?-- Loodog ( talk) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss latest edit, "The largest states: New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, California, and Michigan have voted straight Democrat since 1992 with pluralities almost always larger than the total possible Jewish votes in those states. Florida voted Democrat but once in that period, when Bill Clinton took outpolled Bob Dole by 8.5% nationally, but only by 5.7% in Florida.[28]"
The first sentence does establish that Jews were not a deciding factor in those six states, but only since 1992. That's a set size of four elections, unlike the historical politics section which establishes consistency over a period of time dating back to FDR. Though, the article I read credits Bush's alienation of Jewish voters from his Middle East policy as one of the reasons for Clinton's 1992 electoral victory. Florida was close that year.
Of course, it also doesn't mean Jews had influence in elections before those states went Dem. Reagan won a resounding victory with Jews, but hell, he won just about everyone over too.
As for Florida. Oh, Florida. You didn't give margins in Florida except for in '96, when Jews when along with everybody else. '92 was close. 2000 was absurdly close (and the fair and square thing, the Supreme Court ordered the recount stopped and it was never conclusively decided but that's another issue.) and the article I posted credits Bush's Israel stance for the results there. 2004 was close, though I don't know if close enough to be decided by Jews.-- Loodog ( talk) 17:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, there was the disturbing Jewish push-polling in Ohio revealed a couple weeks ago.-- Loodog ( talk) 20:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Back to the point, 78% of Jews voted for Obama versus 21% for McCain, despite the fact that McCain was considerably more hawkish on Israel. Kind of puts the lie to the claim that it is the issue of Israel that swings the American Jewish electorate. Jayjg (talk) 05:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The addition following the semicolon more fully summarizes the facts presented in the subsequent section paragraphs and is as neutral as I could devise. The previous version was incomplete and avoided noting the reality. I hope it meets and keeps consensus. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The argument about who is a Jew is typically discussed regarding people that are religiously Jewish, but do not identify as such, because they are either atheist or do not follow the religion any longer. It is not correct to consider people Jewish that are not religiously Jewish, even if they identify as socially "Jewish". You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish (although some Reform Jews accept patrilineal descent too, this is not accepted universally by Reform Jews and is not at all accepted by normative Judaism). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent).
1 & 2 -> 3
3. Practicing and believing the principles of Judaism is sufficient but not necessary to be labeled a Jew according to the definition.
You are contesting #3. Is this because you contest #1, #2, or simple logic?-- Loodog ( talk) 03:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg is right. There is nobody that considers "calling oneself Jewish" enough, even if they practice. You must go through a formal conversion. What you need to understand is that Judaism requires you to show commitment (as per your Merriam Webster definition) to the religion via a ceremonial conversion or via matrilineal descent. Definition 4 outright mentions conversion. Conversion is a formal ceremony, not saying you are a Jew. The definition of religion is fine, but what commitment to the religion is varies by religion. Catholics require Baptism. Moslems require you to state your desire to follow Islam's precepts. Judiasm requires matrilineal descent or formal conversion. You are the one interpreting a general definition and wholly incorrectly applying it to something very specific. It does not make the person a liar that he calls himself Jewish. He can call himself Jewish all he/she wants, but he won't be considered Jewish unless he meets either the matrilineal descent requirement, or he/she undergoes the formal commitment via a conversion.
You are stuck on a definition that completely agrees with what Jayjg and I are saying, but seem to be misinterpreting it, which of course is your right, but it is not commonly accepted among Jews. Jews decide who are Jews, not the dictionary anyway, but the dictionary definition you gave, if you don't misinterpret it, fully meets the Jewish religious requirements anyway. You are Jewish if you commit via conversion or are Jewish by matrilineal descent. The Jew definition does not mention matrilineal, but that is how almost all accept it. And, definition #4 outright states conversion for the Jew definition. As for the religion defintion, I've already gone through that - you commit by converting (or you are by matrilineal descent). Please stop making up your own definitions. Sposer ( talk) 03:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Jews are an ethnic group, while Judaism is a religion. Lenny Kravitz, to use an example cited earlier, is 50% ethnically Jewish through his father. A book written 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat doesn't change the fact 50% of a person's genes come through the father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CommanderJamesBond ( talk • contribs) 09:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
"Religion Judaism"
Not all Jews believe in Judaism, some are Christians, Muslims or Atheists as well.
I think that the picture of teenage jews in Kiryas Joel is somewhat misleading. It implies that those pictured are typical residents, and that is certainly not the case. The typical resident is Chassidic. Those pictured are undoubtedly tourists, and it is probably just a vanity photograph because some people thought it would be cool to have their picture in Wikipedia. - Ezra Wax ( talk) 08:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC
how can we get ride of it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.159.202 ( talk) 05:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Joe Lieberman should be in the infobox. He is the most well known Jewish senator, and the first Jewish VP nominee on a major party. I think he can replace Louis Brandeis. Rockyobody ( talk) 01:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Theres a section in Irish american for stereo types.
Irish Catholics were popular targets for stereotyping. According to historian George Potter, the media often stereotyped the Irish in America as being boss-controlled, violent (both among themselves and with those of other ethnic groups), voting illegally, prone to alcoholism, and dependent on street gangs that were often violent or criminal. Potter quotes contemporary newspaper images:
You will scarcely ever find an Irishman dabbling in counterfeit money, or breaking into houses, or swindling; but if there is any fighting to be done, he is very apt to have a hand in it." Even though Pat might "'meet with a friend and for love knock him down,'" noted a Montreal paper, the fighting usually resulted from a sudden excitement, allowing there was "but little 'malice prepense' in his whole composition." The Catholic Telegraph of Cincinnati in 1853, saying that the "name of 'Irish' has become identified in the minds of many, with almost every species of outlawry," distinguished the Irish vices as "not of a deep malignant nature," arising rather from the "transient burst of undisciplined passion," like "drunk, disorderly, fighting, etc., not like robbery, cheating, swindling, counterfeiting, slandering, calumniating, blasphemy, using obscene language, &c.[11]
The Irish had many humorists of their own, but were scathingly attacked in German American cartoons, especially those in Puck magazine from the 1870s to 1900. In addition, the cartoons of German American Thomas Nast were especially hostile; for example, he depicted the Irish-dominated Tammany Hall machine in New York City as a ferocious tiger.
Pretty sure there is one for italian americans aswell. But I see none for jews....These page needs a little lightening up and a little less accusations of antisemite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.234.194 ( talk) 03:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Jon Stewart and Jerry Seinfeld should be included in the infobox, they are classic examples, of american celebrities who are also jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.203.128 ( talk) 20:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Do they consider themselves Jews who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Jewish? DHN ( talk) 03:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Why Jew at all since it is a religion, not an ethnicity or race? Why don't they call themselves Germans, Pols or Russians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.93.188 ( talk) 23:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand, the "Jewish American" terminology might be considered an assimilationist or ‘universalist’ point of view, while the terminology "American Jews" might be considered a non-assimilationist point of view, and the one favored by Jewish nationalists and the more religiously orthodox. This general difference has deep roots both within the religion and within this particular national group. It is also noted by the difference between American Jewish voting habits (discussed) and lobbying and PAC donation habits [11] (undiscussed). This seems similar to the disconnected logic indicated by innumerable references to Jews and Judaism on Zionist pages, while a linked Zionism reference only rates a 'See also' on the Judaism page. This certainly seems to be a proper page for some discussion of these differences. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 03:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I say we add Mr.Madoff to the picture listing. Plz add kthnxbai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.227.170 ( talk) 17:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
~In all seriousness why wouldnt you put Dr.Theodore Kaczynski? He is polish american isnt he? Do we want this encyclopedia to be completely lopsided and only show the "successful and prosperous" people? Shouldnt we show both sides of the spectrum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.234.194 ( talk) 03:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Bernard Madoff should be included under subsection Popular culture of section Notable American Jews: Jewish_American#Popular_culture. As WP:WELLKNOWN states, "In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." To exclude Bernard_Madoff because of the negative publicity violates WP:NPOV . Magemirlen ( talk) 15:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Many articles about ethnic, national and religious groups have these photo arrays showing famous members of these groups. I just looked at Germans, Spanish people, Austrians, English people, Italians and a few others, to see whether they have a mixture of great and notorious people, glorious people and criminals. They do not. I see photos of Claudia Schiffer, Andrea Merkel, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Michelangelo, Picasso, King Juan Carlos, and many many others in a positive vein. I see no Nazis, no Mussolini, no Franco, no thieves, no robbers, no bad guys. I looked at Italian Americans and I see people who played mobsters in movies, directed mob movies, a singer who hung out with mobsters, but I see no actual mobsters. If we are going to start having a mixture of good and bad role models, lets do it uniformly, not just here on this page. As it is, there seems to have been a conscious decision across Wikipedia that these photo arrays are composed of "good guys", and while one could argue that it should not be that way, I think it is a defensible position. Let's not try to change it in one place without a global discussion about all similar situations. That might be a good topic for the Village Pump, but not for here. 6SJ7 ( talk) 04:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
ALbert Einstein's picture is amongst those of American Jews. DO we consider him American because he emigrated to the US? Truly is he not a German Jew? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.29.83 ( talk) 00:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I suggest replacing Rahm Emmanuel with Michael Bloomberg on the picture list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.192.97.43 ( talk) 14:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Not Jewish, edits to the article to reflect this fact have been erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.78.87 ( talk) 07:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose we keep the newly-restored section in the article listing cities or communities with large American Jewish populations, but we need to vote on whether the list is strictly WP:OR or we must find a reliable demographic source. A few of the cities mentioned like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Miami are centers of American Jewish culture by word of mouth, except Wikipedia doesn't want edits not originating from word of mouth or cultural perception. Should we contact an independent or Jewish community-run demographic group to get the info. or properly examine the numbers of Jews in these communities or states? + 71.102.2.206 ( talk) 06:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The similarity between the historic and legal framework of the United States of America and the predominant social and cultural beliefs of European Jews citation needed, near the turn of the twentieth century, gave hope and encouraged massive immigration. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk)
Obviously, there's no piece of evidence, source, text or anything to support this. All this is an opinion. While I respect who ever's opinion it is, wide-spread unacknowledged opinions are not valuable without links (especially to start out a section). If you elobarated on this, perhaps it'd make more sense to readers. I just don't see the logic in this statement though. For example, it mentions massive European Jewish immigration. Take a look at Israel for example. Wouldn't have that country been more reflective of their social and cultural values since they were the one's who virtually created the state? Is state and religion separate there? No. Is it in the U.S.? Yes. The U.S. was not the only country large numbers of Jews immigrated too in the late-nineteenth century either (ex. Canada). There's no mentioning of what those social and cultural values are either. If it's religious, it's irrelevant. Educational? I don't see how the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights supports that explicitly supports it more than any other historical document. Capitalistic? Says who? Weren't there many Jews in Hollywood a half-century ago who are black balled for associating with communism? What else did the Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence permit? Slavery? The point is I don't see how this statement is necessary. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC).
Seems a bit undue weight; there are plenty of Jews in American Finance present and past of far more repute. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Kinda barely qualifies as Jewish; he doesn't actually seem to self-identify as one. Rather a marginal example. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 20:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I see no reason to have Noam Chomsky be listed in the pictures of well known American Jews. This man is a obscure person who's jewish-ness (not really a word I know) is often put into question. There are many American Jews who are far more well known. I think that he should be replaced with Alan Dershowitz or Jonathan Pollard. Nekng ( talk) 05:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Nekng, WP:BLP applies to Talk pages. Since Chomsky has, to the best of my knowledge, never BLP violation removed, I would advise you to refactor your comments concerning him. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 02:13, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Let me go on the record as requesting that Chomsky stay, and prominently so. He is by far the most cited Jewish American ever, and is in the top 10 of most cited authors ever (the only one alive, in fact). His contributions and influence (and hence renown) far outstrip Dershowitz's; the latter is known mostly in American legal and some intellectual circles, while Chomsky is known around the world, both in scientific circles (he received the Kyoto prize, for example) and in intellectual/political circles. And while 30 years ago he defended the right to publish of a Holocaust-denier, he himself has never BLP violation removed. (And I'd be very surprised if he hasn't sold more books than Dershowitz as well: don't forget that he writes about one a year.) As a linguist, I also want to stress that Chomsky essentially founded the modern, scientific discipline (whether one agrees with him or not, no-one doubts his stature). Mundart ( talk) 20:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the image gallery because:
PS: I think we ought to take a weed whacker to Notable American Jews. We already have links to long lists of Jewish Americans; we don't need to repeat their names here too. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 00:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is actually in kilometers and labeled "miles", or if the wrong formula was used, but the US is approximately 1,000 miles from north to south, and approx. 3,000 from east coast to west coast. The scale provided with this map shows the U.S. as being twice that size. I have also entered this comment on the discussion page for the image file itself.. Ilyse Kazar ( talk) 15:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I tried to add the Ethnic Group project tag to Talk:History of the Jews in the United States but was told I needed a reliable source, even though the American Jews article is listed as part of the project. What was the source used to justify including this page as part of the project? I want to use it for the other page. Thanks. Aristophanes68 ( talk) 04:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) Jayjg, we go by reliable sources. Furthermore we try not to give undue weight to little held views. Jews, as an ethnicity, represents only a minority view. In support of that contention, examine these dictionary definitions of the word "Jewish" found here:
American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Jewish: Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion.
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition: Jewish: 1. of Judaism: relating to or practicing Judaism; 2. of Jews: relating to or belonging to a people descended from the ancient Hebrews
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition: Jewish: of, relating to, or characteristic of the Jews; also : being a Jew
Cambridge International Dictionary of English: Jewish: a member of a race of people whose traditional religion is Judaism
Wiktionary: Jewish: 1. Being a Jew, or relating to Jews, their religion or their culture; 2. Yiddish
Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed.: Jewish: of or having to do with Jews or Judaism; loosely, Yiddish
The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus: Jewish: 1. of or pertaining to Jews, their customs, or their religion; 2. (informal) Yiddish
Infoplease Dictionary: Jewish: 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Jews or Judaism: Jewish customs; 2. Informal.Yiddish
Dictionary.com: Jewish: 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Jews or Judaism: Jewish customs; 2. Informal, Yiddish.
UltraLingua English Dictionary: Jewish: Of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion: “a Jewish wedding”; Also called: Judaic
Cambridge Dictionary of American English: Jewish: Jew, a person whose religion is Judaism, or a person related by birth to the ancient peoples of Israel; Jewish: of or related to Jews
Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia: Jewish: Jew: entire article, too long to quote
Online Plain Text English Dictionary: Jewish: Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish
Webster's Revised Unabridged, 1913 Edition: Jewish: Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish
Rhymezone: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion
AllWords.com Multi-Lingual Dictionary: Jewish: 1. The Yiddish language; 2. Of or relating to Jews, their religion or their culture
Webster's 1828 Dictionary: Jewish: Pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews
Free Dictionary: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion; Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish; Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Judaism
Mnemonic Dictionary: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion
WordNet 1.7 Vocabulary Helper: Jewish: Jewish, Judaic -- (of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion; Jew, Hebrew, Israelite -- (a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties)
LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus: Jewish: Jew Hebrew Israelite; synonym Judaic
Dictionary/thesaurus: Jewish: Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion; See Usage Note at Jew: Jew: 1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture; 2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism; 3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah
The above are all under the word "Jewish," except where a direct link suggested looking at the word "Jew" in the entry. Here is the same sort of a collection of dictionaries and other sorts of reference matter, in this case relating specifically to the word "Jew." When I get a chance I may try to look through it. But the message from the above entries seems to say that little emphasis is put on "Jewish" as relating to ethnicity. Culture, yes. Religion, yes. Dictionary definitions tend not to ascribe "ethnicity" to Jews. Bus stop ( talk) 00:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
One argument used by pro-ethnicity types is that Jews use matrilineal descent for determining whether one is Jewish, and some rabbis will tell you, "Once a Jew, always a Jew, even if you convert out." Of course, using that definition, there are probably several hundred million Jews in the world, little do they know! And, although I am no fan of it, Reform Judiasm decided pretty much that children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers can be considered Jewish if they go through a B'nai Mitzvah. If not, they are not Jewish, although the ethnic definition makes them 50% Jew I guess.
The simple fact that Ashkenazim are as much European as they are "Semetic", and that the are truly African Jews, Oriental Jews, and thousands of converts is totally lost on people that want to ascribe Jews to an ethnicity, which does not in reality exist. The first Jews are of the same "race" as the Arabs, for all intents and purposes. Since that time there have been conversions, intermarriage, and at time proselityzing, etc. To call Jews a race is done by people who want to destroy the Jewish religion. I know Jayjg doesn't want that, and I do not understand why he supports this (sometimes academic) misconception. I certainly am not accusing him of anything nefarious.
The bottom line, is that based on any reasonable Wiki way of determination, one cannot argue against an ethnicity tag, no matter how wrong and misguided you or I believe it may truly be. I don't like and you don't either, but it is not worth fighting over. Neither of us are going to change it, until one can cite academic and general research that properly identify Judaism as a religion, and Jews as people that are either religiously or culturally Jewish only. Sposer ( talk) 01:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
(unindent)Even among Sephardim and Ashkenazim, there are substantial differences. "German" Jews are Ashkenazim I guess, but they are very different from Polish and Russian Jews. Polish and Russian Jews consider themselves to be very different from each other too. Dutch Jews are European, but many are of Sephardic background. Lots of intermarriage, rape, etc., makes great difference. Jews are multi-ethnic. To call them an ethnic group is sort of ridiculous. The only commonality amongst all Jews is the religion. My father was born in Belgium and calls himself a Polish Jew. My mother was born in the U.S. (as was her mother), and considers herself of Russian descent. My father's mother was born in Germany and said she was Polish. As far as I am concerned, I am an American whose religion is Jewish. Just because 98% of Jews can be called Sephardic or Ashkenazi doesn't mean that it represents just two ethnic groups. Moroccan Jews have a very different heritage from Egyptian Jews. Different culture. Different world views. Same is true of Russian vs. German, or Israelis vs. American. I am as Russian as I am African, as far as anything is concerned. I eat much more Korean food, than I eat borscht! My race is Caucasian. My ethnicity is Brooklyn, NY (a little levity). My religion is Jewish. I am willing to accept the broad categorization of ethnic having cultural/religious/heritage ties, but that is solely because of the common religion factor, and nothing else. If I did start seeing the race/descendancy stuff being used as justification, I will change my mind and stand with Bus stop. Jews are 100% not a race or ethnic group on that basis and there is zero justification for it. Sposer ( talk) 18:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't advocating for anything particularly, and I jumped in late anyway. I just wanted to point out that the concept of Judaism being intertwined with ethnicity isn't easily dismissed because 98-99% of Jews belong to an ethnically Jewish heritage. The concept of Jewishness is a complex one that includes both aspects of a religion because it concerns certain beliefs and practices, as well as aspects of culture and descended tradition since a number of Jews don't believe (19% believe God does not exist) or practice but still consider themselves Jewish. As the President of Hillel so emphatically delivers to all Birthright kids: "Judaism is not a religion".-- Louiedog ( talk) 21:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Bus stop, what has brought on this bout of hysteria? You're throwing around phrases like "original research", "synthesis", "undue weight", and "reliable sources"—and for what? Because you don't like the fact that another editor wants to include History of the Jews in the United States in the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups.
What are you afraid of? That the presence of the WikiProject Ethnic groups banner will somehow tarnish that article? It hasn't damaged Jew or American Jews, so why the worry? — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 04:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Despite the fact that Gloria Steinem is not a Jew, her photo is shown on the header of the page "American Jews." As stated in the article on Gloria Steinem in Wikipedia: Steinem was born in Toledo, Ohio. Her mother, Ruth (née Nuneviller), was of part German descent. Her Jewish father, Leo Steinem, was a traveling antiques dealer (with trailer and family in tow) and the son of immigrants from Germany and Poland.[1] The family split in 1944, when he went to California to find work while Gloria lived with her mother in Toledo.
Her photo should be removed, but by policy it can only be removed after discussion. 69.114.217.217 ( talk) 03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Why isn't there a single religious (Orthodox) person there? How about, I don't know, Michael Medved? 84.228.107.45 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC).
This section seems to be devoted to the bizarre notion that anti-Zionist attitudes among Jews contributed to the Holocaust. Regardless of personal feelings about Zionism, I think it's pretty clear that this section is both inaccurate and highly biased. Bluemonkee ( talk) 06:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a constant attempt to add Agnosticism or Atheism to the religion tags of American Jews. American Jews are of the Jewish religion, by definition, whether they practice it or not. I know there seem to be all sorts of polls that say that there are a whole lot of Agnostic or Atheistic American Jews. I know they exist. But, I think that is more a city/coast thing more than Jewish. Growing up in NYC, I know far more none-practicing Catholics than I do Jews. If you took a poll of NYers or Los Angelans, or Chicagoans, I suspect that you'd find high numbers of agnostics and atheists there amongst all religious groups. Judaism is a religion, and there are a few cultural similarities among the world's Jews that allow some to mischaracterize it as an ethnic group too. But the religion of Jews, is Judaism, plain and simple, not Agnostic, not Atheist, not Protestant, etc. Sposer ( talk) 21:44, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
In an attempt to put an end to the edit-warring, I combined the images into a block of photos.
Here's an explanation of why I put the pictures where I did:
There you have it. Please discuss changes here rather than starting another edit war. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 04:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
::::Beats me. I'll see if I can fix it. —
Malik Shabazz (
talk ·
contribs)
20:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
This is somehow confusing: the article states there is about 3750000 Jews in New York metropolitan area, and it says this is 9.3% of NY population. But link provided there to the article "New York metropolitan area" clearly shows us a page where the number of New Yorkers is something above 18800000. That would make the Jews some 20% of NY population. Or, if we use the biggest estimation on this page, which is exactly 21,961,994 inhabitants of NY met. area, still a percentage of the Jews would be much higher than 9.3%, it would be some 17%. Could someone explain, or correct this? Tivran ( talk) 04:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I noticed there is no photo of as famous Jewish natural scientist although it is considered one of the fields Jewish Americans have made large contributions to. I think it would be appropriate to replace one of the entertainment or jurisdiction personalities by a natural scientist, I think Albert Einstein or Richrad Feynman would be a good choice. 88.77.203.29 ( talk) 20:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Grouchomarxpromophoto.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
The following images also have this problem:
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I would like to know about demographic data of American Jews like natural increasing rates, fertility rates, divorcing rates and so on...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.111.56 ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following poorly sourced original research to Talk: for further discussion:
Today, American Jews exert a disproportionate force in American politics, some in the form of Israel lobby groups. Mitchell Bard writes, "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor," citing that Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group. While 2.3% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, states which are enough alone to elect the president. American Jews are also major contributors to political causes.
The claim is sourced to these two articles: [1] [2] The second is a dead link. The first is a single article from a single source. In addition, the "Israel lobby" is not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination, and the author of the article doesn't reach the same conclusion as the author of this paragraph. Jayjg (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, since I haven't seen any objections regarding high voter turnout in key electoral states or major political contributions, I'm going to assume people are OK with them and reinsert them on the article. If I'm wrong, I'll willingly revert.-- Loodog ( talk) 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to know about demographic data of American Jews like natural increasing rates, fertility rates, divorcing rates and so on...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.111.56 ( talk) 07:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I've moved the following poorly sourced original research to Talk: for further discussion:
Today, American Jews exert a disproportionate force in American politics, some in the form of Israel lobby groups. Mitchell Bard writes, "Jews have devoted themselves to politics with almost religious fervor," citing that Jews have the highest percentage voter turnout of any ethnic group. While 2.3% of the United States population is Jewish, 94% live in 13 key electoral college states, states which are enough alone to elect the president. American Jews are also major contributors to political causes.
The claim is sourced to these two articles: [3] [4] The second is a dead link. The first is a single article from a single source. In addition, the "Israel lobby" is not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination, and the author of the article doesn't reach the same conclusion as the author of this paragraph. Jayjg (talk) 00:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, since I haven't seen any objections regarding high voter turnout in key electoral states or major political contributions, I'm going to assume people are OK with them and reinsert them on the article. If I'm wrong, I'll willingly revert.-- Loodog ( talk) 02:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
I've found a fascinating article [5] that explains how the Jewish vote is so influential: political and media power are overestimated, Jews have political importance because they vote in large numbers in swing states and are a swayable bloc because of Israel. Didn't know if anyone would raise objection to adding this since these are, of course, blanket statements about a large group of people. Thoughts?-- Loodog ( talk) 22:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss latest edit, "The largest states: New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, California, and Michigan have voted straight Democrat since 1992 with pluralities almost always larger than the total possible Jewish votes in those states. Florida voted Democrat but once in that period, when Bill Clinton took outpolled Bob Dole by 8.5% nationally, but only by 5.7% in Florida.[28]"
The first sentence does establish that Jews were not a deciding factor in those six states, but only since 1992. That's a set size of four elections, unlike the historical politics section which establishes consistency over a period of time dating back to FDR. Though, the article I read credits Bush's alienation of Jewish voters from his Middle East policy as one of the reasons for Clinton's 1992 electoral victory. Florida was close that year.
Of course, it also doesn't mean Jews had influence in elections before those states went Dem. Reagan won a resounding victory with Jews, but hell, he won just about everyone over too.
As for Florida. Oh, Florida. You didn't give margins in Florida except for in '96, when Jews when along with everybody else. '92 was close. 2000 was absurdly close (and the fair and square thing, the Supreme Court ordered the recount stopped and it was never conclusively decided but that's another issue.) and the article I posted credits Bush's Israel stance for the results there. 2004 was close, though I don't know if close enough to be decided by Jews.-- Loodog ( talk) 17:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Also, there was the disturbing Jewish push-polling in Ohio revealed a couple weeks ago.-- Loodog ( talk) 20:15, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Back to the point, 78% of Jews voted for Obama versus 21% for McCain, despite the fact that McCain was considerably more hawkish on Israel. Kind of puts the lie to the claim that it is the issue of Israel that swings the American Jewish electorate. Jayjg (talk) 05:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The addition following the semicolon more fully summarizes the facts presented in the subsequent section paragraphs and is as neutral as I could devise. The previous version was incomplete and avoided noting the reality. I hope it meets and keeps consensus. CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 06:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The argument about who is a Jew is typically discussed regarding people that are religiously Jewish, but do not identify as such, because they are either atheist or do not follow the religion any longer. It is not correct to consider people Jewish that are not religiously Jewish, even if they identify as socially "Jewish". You are Jewish if your mother is Jewish (although some Reform Jews accept patrilineal descent too, this is not accepted universally by Reform Jews and is not at all accepted by normative Judaism). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sposer ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
(undent).
1 & 2 -> 3
3. Practicing and believing the principles of Judaism is sufficient but not necessary to be labeled a Jew according to the definition.
You are contesting #3. Is this because you contest #1, #2, or simple logic?-- Loodog ( talk) 03:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg is right. There is nobody that considers "calling oneself Jewish" enough, even if they practice. You must go through a formal conversion. What you need to understand is that Judaism requires you to show commitment (as per your Merriam Webster definition) to the religion via a ceremonial conversion or via matrilineal descent. Definition 4 outright mentions conversion. Conversion is a formal ceremony, not saying you are a Jew. The definition of religion is fine, but what commitment to the religion is varies by religion. Catholics require Baptism. Moslems require you to state your desire to follow Islam's precepts. Judiasm requires matrilineal descent or formal conversion. You are the one interpreting a general definition and wholly incorrectly applying it to something very specific. It does not make the person a liar that he calls himself Jewish. He can call himself Jewish all he/she wants, but he won't be considered Jewish unless he meets either the matrilineal descent requirement, or he/she undergoes the formal commitment via a conversion.
You are stuck on a definition that completely agrees with what Jayjg and I are saying, but seem to be misinterpreting it, which of course is your right, but it is not commonly accepted among Jews. Jews decide who are Jews, not the dictionary anyway, but the dictionary definition you gave, if you don't misinterpret it, fully meets the Jewish religious requirements anyway. You are Jewish if you commit via conversion or are Jewish by matrilineal descent. The Jew definition does not mention matrilineal, but that is how almost all accept it. And, definition #4 outright states conversion for the Jew definition. As for the religion defintion, I've already gone through that - you commit by converting (or you are by matrilineal descent). Please stop making up your own definitions. Sposer ( talk) 03:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Jews are an ethnic group, while Judaism is a religion. Lenny Kravitz, to use an example cited earlier, is 50% ethnically Jewish through his father. A book written 2000 years ago by people who thought the world was flat doesn't change the fact 50% of a person's genes come through the father. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CommanderJamesBond ( talk • contribs) 09:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
"Religion Judaism"
Not all Jews believe in Judaism, some are Christians, Muslims or Atheists as well.
I think that the picture of teenage jews in Kiryas Joel is somewhat misleading. It implies that those pictured are typical residents, and that is certainly not the case. The typical resident is Chassidic. Those pictured are undoubtedly tourists, and it is probably just a vanity photograph because some people thought it would be cool to have their picture in Wikipedia. - Ezra Wax ( talk) 08:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC
how can we get ride of it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.140.159.202 ( talk) 05:44, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Joe Lieberman should be in the infobox. He is the most well known Jewish senator, and the first Jewish VP nominee on a major party. I think he can replace Louis Brandeis. Rockyobody ( talk) 01:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Theres a section in Irish american for stereo types.
Irish Catholics were popular targets for stereotyping. According to historian George Potter, the media often stereotyped the Irish in America as being boss-controlled, violent (both among themselves and with those of other ethnic groups), voting illegally, prone to alcoholism, and dependent on street gangs that were often violent or criminal. Potter quotes contemporary newspaper images:
You will scarcely ever find an Irishman dabbling in counterfeit money, or breaking into houses, or swindling; but if there is any fighting to be done, he is very apt to have a hand in it." Even though Pat might "'meet with a friend and for love knock him down,'" noted a Montreal paper, the fighting usually resulted from a sudden excitement, allowing there was "but little 'malice prepense' in his whole composition." The Catholic Telegraph of Cincinnati in 1853, saying that the "name of 'Irish' has become identified in the minds of many, with almost every species of outlawry," distinguished the Irish vices as "not of a deep malignant nature," arising rather from the "transient burst of undisciplined passion," like "drunk, disorderly, fighting, etc., not like robbery, cheating, swindling, counterfeiting, slandering, calumniating, blasphemy, using obscene language, &c.[11]
The Irish had many humorists of their own, but were scathingly attacked in German American cartoons, especially those in Puck magazine from the 1870s to 1900. In addition, the cartoons of German American Thomas Nast were especially hostile; for example, he depicted the Irish-dominated Tammany Hall machine in New York City as a ferocious tiger.
Pretty sure there is one for italian americans aswell. But I see none for jews....These page needs a little lightening up and a little less accusations of antisemite —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.234.194 ( talk) 03:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Jon Stewart and Jerry Seinfeld should be included in the infobox, they are classic examples, of american celebrities who are also jewish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.194.203.128 ( talk) 20:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Do they consider themselves Jews who happen to be Americans instead of Americans who happen to be Jewish? DHN ( talk) 03:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
Why Jew at all since it is a religion, not an ethnicity or race? Why don't they call themselves Germans, Pols or Russians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.93.188 ( talk) 23:07, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
On the other hand, the "Jewish American" terminology might be considered an assimilationist or ‘universalist’ point of view, while the terminology "American Jews" might be considered a non-assimilationist point of view, and the one favored by Jewish nationalists and the more religiously orthodox. This general difference has deep roots both within the religion and within this particular national group. It is also noted by the difference between American Jewish voting habits (discussed) and lobbying and PAC donation habits [11] (undiscussed). This seems similar to the disconnected logic indicated by innumerable references to Jews and Judaism on Zionist pages, while a linked Zionism reference only rates a 'See also' on the Judaism page. This certainly seems to be a proper page for some discussion of these differences. Regards, CasualObserver'48 ( talk) 03:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I say we add Mr.Madoff to the picture listing. Plz add kthnxbai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.227.170 ( talk) 17:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
~In all seriousness why wouldnt you put Dr.Theodore Kaczynski? He is polish american isnt he? Do we want this encyclopedia to be completely lopsided and only show the "successful and prosperous" people? Shouldnt we show both sides of the spectrum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.23.234.194 ( talk) 03:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Bernard Madoff should be included under subsection Popular culture of section Notable American Jews: Jewish_American#Popular_culture. As WP:WELLKNOWN states, "In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." To exclude Bernard_Madoff because of the negative publicity violates WP:NPOV . Magemirlen ( talk) 15:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
Many articles about ethnic, national and religious groups have these photo arrays showing famous members of these groups. I just looked at Germans, Spanish people, Austrians, English people, Italians and a few others, to see whether they have a mixture of great and notorious people, glorious people and criminals. They do not. I see photos of Claudia Schiffer, Andrea Merkel, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Michelangelo, Picasso, King Juan Carlos, and many many others in a positive vein. I see no Nazis, no Mussolini, no Franco, no thieves, no robbers, no bad guys. I looked at Italian Americans and I see people who played mobsters in movies, directed mob movies, a singer who hung out with mobsters, but I see no actual mobsters. If we are going to start having a mixture of good and bad role models, lets do it uniformly, not just here on this page. As it is, there seems to have been a conscious decision across Wikipedia that these photo arrays are composed of "good guys", and while one could argue that it should not be that way, I think it is a defensible position. Let's not try to change it in one place without a global discussion about all similar situations. That might be a good topic for the Village Pump, but not for here. 6SJ7 ( talk) 04:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
ALbert Einstein's picture is amongst those of American Jews. DO we consider him American because he emigrated to the US? Truly is he not a German Jew? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.29.83 ( talk) 00:12, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I suggest replacing Rahm Emmanuel with Michael Bloomberg on the picture list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.192.97.43 ( talk) 14:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Not Jewish, edits to the article to reflect this fact have been erased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.78.87 ( talk) 07:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
I propose we keep the newly-restored section in the article listing cities or communities with large American Jewish populations, but we need to vote on whether the list is strictly WP:OR or we must find a reliable demographic source. A few of the cities mentioned like New York City, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Miami are centers of American Jewish culture by word of mouth, except Wikipedia doesn't want edits not originating from word of mouth or cultural perception. Should we contact an independent or Jewish community-run demographic group to get the info. or properly examine the numbers of Jews in these communities or states? + 71.102.2.206 ( talk) 06:24, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
The similarity between the historic and legal framework of the United States of America and the predominant social and cultural beliefs of European Jews citation needed, near the turn of the twentieth century, gave hope and encouraged massive immigration. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk)
Obviously, there's no piece of evidence, source, text or anything to support this. All this is an opinion. While I respect who ever's opinion it is, wide-spread unacknowledged opinions are not valuable without links (especially to start out a section). If you elobarated on this, perhaps it'd make more sense to readers. I just don't see the logic in this statement though. For example, it mentions massive European Jewish immigration. Take a look at Israel for example. Wouldn't have that country been more reflective of their social and cultural values since they were the one's who virtually created the state? Is state and religion separate there? No. Is it in the U.S.? Yes. The U.S. was not the only country large numbers of Jews immigrated too in the late-nineteenth century either (ex. Canada). There's no mentioning of what those social and cultural values are either. If it's religious, it's irrelevant. Educational? I don't see how the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights supports that explicitly supports it more than any other historical document. Capitalistic? Says who? Weren't there many Jews in Hollywood a half-century ago who are black balled for associating with communism? What else did the Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence permit? Slavery? The point is I don't see how this statement is necessary. Tom Nyj0127 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC).
Seems a bit undue weight; there are plenty of Jews in American Finance present and past of far more repute. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 19:46, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Kinda barely qualifies as Jewish; he doesn't actually seem to self-identify as one. Rather a marginal example. -- jpgordon ::==( o ) 20:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
I see no reason to have Noam Chomsky be listed in the pictures of well known American Jews. This man is a obscure person who's jewish-ness (not really a word I know) is often put into question. There are many American Jews who are far more well known. I think that he should be replaced with Alan Dershowitz or Jonathan Pollard. Nekng ( talk) 05:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Nekng, WP:BLP applies to Talk pages. Since Chomsky has, to the best of my knowledge, never BLP violation removed, I would advise you to refactor your comments concerning him. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 02:13, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Let me go on the record as requesting that Chomsky stay, and prominently so. He is by far the most cited Jewish American ever, and is in the top 10 of most cited authors ever (the only one alive, in fact). His contributions and influence (and hence renown) far outstrip Dershowitz's; the latter is known mostly in American legal and some intellectual circles, while Chomsky is known around the world, both in scientific circles (he received the Kyoto prize, for example) and in intellectual/political circles. And while 30 years ago he defended the right to publish of a Holocaust-denier, he himself has never BLP violation removed. (And I'd be very surprised if he hasn't sold more books than Dershowitz as well: don't forget that he writes about one a year.) As a linguist, I also want to stress that Chomsky essentially founded the modern, scientific discipline (whether one agrees with him or not, no-one doubts his stature). Mundart ( talk) 20:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the image gallery because:
PS: I think we ought to take a weed whacker to Notable American Jews. We already have links to long lists of Jewish Americans; we don't need to repeat their names here too. — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 00:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know whether this is actually in kilometers and labeled "miles", or if the wrong formula was used, but the US is approximately 1,000 miles from north to south, and approx. 3,000 from east coast to west coast. The scale provided with this map shows the U.S. as being twice that size. I have also entered this comment on the discussion page for the image file itself.. Ilyse Kazar ( talk) 15:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I tried to add the Ethnic Group project tag to Talk:History of the Jews in the United States but was told I needed a reliable source, even though the American Jews article is listed as part of the project. What was the source used to justify including this page as part of the project? I want to use it for the other page. Thanks. Aristophanes68 ( talk) 04:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
(unindent) Jayjg, we go by reliable sources. Furthermore we try not to give undue weight to little held views. Jews, as an ethnicity, represents only a minority view. In support of that contention, examine these dictionary definitions of the word "Jewish" found here:
American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Jewish: Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion.
Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition: Jewish: 1. of Judaism: relating to or practicing Judaism; 2. of Jews: relating to or belonging to a people descended from the ancient Hebrews
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition: Jewish: of, relating to, or characteristic of the Jews; also : being a Jew
Cambridge International Dictionary of English: Jewish: a member of a race of people whose traditional religion is Judaism
Wiktionary: Jewish: 1. Being a Jew, or relating to Jews, their religion or their culture; 2. Yiddish
Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed.: Jewish: of or having to do with Jews or Judaism; loosely, Yiddish
The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus: Jewish: 1. of or pertaining to Jews, their customs, or their religion; 2. (informal) Yiddish
Infoplease Dictionary: Jewish: 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Jews or Judaism: Jewish customs; 2. Informal.Yiddish
Dictionary.com: Jewish: 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the Jews or Judaism: Jewish customs; 2. Informal, Yiddish.
UltraLingua English Dictionary: Jewish: Of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion: “a Jewish wedding”; Also called: Judaic
Cambridge Dictionary of American English: Jewish: Jew, a person whose religion is Judaism, or a person related by birth to the ancient peoples of Israel; Jewish: of or related to Jews
Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia: Jewish: Jew: entire article, too long to quote
Online Plain Text English Dictionary: Jewish: Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish
Webster's Revised Unabridged, 1913 Edition: Jewish: Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish
Rhymezone: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion
AllWords.com Multi-Lingual Dictionary: Jewish: 1. The Yiddish language; 2. Of or relating to Jews, their religion or their culture
Webster's 1828 Dictionary: Jewish: Pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews
Free Dictionary: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion; Of or pertaining to the Jews or Hebrews; characteristic of or resembling the Jews or their customs; Israelitish; Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Judaism
Mnemonic Dictionary: Jewish: of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion
WordNet 1.7 Vocabulary Helper: Jewish: Jewish, Judaic -- (of or relating to Jews or their culture or religion; Jew, Hebrew, Israelite -- (a person belonging to the worldwide group claiming descent from Jacob (or converted to it) and connected by cultural or religious ties)
LookWAYup Translating Dictionary/Thesaurus: Jewish: Jew Hebrew Israelite; synonym Judaic
Dictionary/thesaurus: Jewish: Of or relating to the Jews or their culture or religion; See Usage Note at Jew: Jew: 1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture; 2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism; 3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah
The above are all under the word "Jewish," except where a direct link suggested looking at the word "Jew" in the entry. Here is the same sort of a collection of dictionaries and other sorts of reference matter, in this case relating specifically to the word "Jew." When I get a chance I may try to look through it. But the message from the above entries seems to say that little emphasis is put on "Jewish" as relating to ethnicity. Culture, yes. Religion, yes. Dictionary definitions tend not to ascribe "ethnicity" to Jews. Bus stop ( talk) 00:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
One argument used by pro-ethnicity types is that Jews use matrilineal descent for determining whether one is Jewish, and some rabbis will tell you, "Once a Jew, always a Jew, even if you convert out." Of course, using that definition, there are probably several hundred million Jews in the world, little do they know! And, although I am no fan of it, Reform Judiasm decided pretty much that children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers can be considered Jewish if they go through a B'nai Mitzvah. If not, they are not Jewish, although the ethnic definition makes them 50% Jew I guess.
The simple fact that Ashkenazim are as much European as they are "Semetic", and that the are truly African Jews, Oriental Jews, and thousands of converts is totally lost on people that want to ascribe Jews to an ethnicity, which does not in reality exist. The first Jews are of the same "race" as the Arabs, for all intents and purposes. Since that time there have been conversions, intermarriage, and at time proselityzing, etc. To call Jews a race is done by people who want to destroy the Jewish religion. I know Jayjg doesn't want that, and I do not understand why he supports this (sometimes academic) misconception. I certainly am not accusing him of anything nefarious.
The bottom line, is that based on any reasonable Wiki way of determination, one cannot argue against an ethnicity tag, no matter how wrong and misguided you or I believe it may truly be. I don't like and you don't either, but it is not worth fighting over. Neither of us are going to change it, until one can cite academic and general research that properly identify Judaism as a religion, and Jews as people that are either religiously or culturally Jewish only. Sposer ( talk) 01:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
(unindent)Even among Sephardim and Ashkenazim, there are substantial differences. "German" Jews are Ashkenazim I guess, but they are very different from Polish and Russian Jews. Polish and Russian Jews consider themselves to be very different from each other too. Dutch Jews are European, but many are of Sephardic background. Lots of intermarriage, rape, etc., makes great difference. Jews are multi-ethnic. To call them an ethnic group is sort of ridiculous. The only commonality amongst all Jews is the religion. My father was born in Belgium and calls himself a Polish Jew. My mother was born in the U.S. (as was her mother), and considers herself of Russian descent. My father's mother was born in Germany and said she was Polish. As far as I am concerned, I am an American whose religion is Jewish. Just because 98% of Jews can be called Sephardic or Ashkenazi doesn't mean that it represents just two ethnic groups. Moroccan Jews have a very different heritage from Egyptian Jews. Different culture. Different world views. Same is true of Russian vs. German, or Israelis vs. American. I am as Russian as I am African, as far as anything is concerned. I eat much more Korean food, than I eat borscht! My race is Caucasian. My ethnicity is Brooklyn, NY (a little levity). My religion is Jewish. I am willing to accept the broad categorization of ethnic having cultural/religious/heritage ties, but that is solely because of the common religion factor, and nothing else. If I did start seeing the race/descendancy stuff being used as justification, I will change my mind and stand with Bus stop. Jews are 100% not a race or ethnic group on that basis and there is zero justification for it. Sposer ( talk) 18:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I wasn't advocating for anything particularly, and I jumped in late anyway. I just wanted to point out that the concept of Judaism being intertwined with ethnicity isn't easily dismissed because 98-99% of Jews belong to an ethnically Jewish heritage. The concept of Jewishness is a complex one that includes both aspects of a religion because it concerns certain beliefs and practices, as well as aspects of culture and descended tradition since a number of Jews don't believe (19% believe God does not exist) or practice but still consider themselves Jewish. As the President of Hillel so emphatically delivers to all Birthright kids: "Judaism is not a religion".-- Louiedog ( talk) 21:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Bus stop, what has brought on this bout of hysteria? You're throwing around phrases like "original research", "synthesis", "undue weight", and "reliable sources"—and for what? Because you don't like the fact that another editor wants to include History of the Jews in the United States in the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups.
What are you afraid of? That the presence of the WikiProject Ethnic groups banner will somehow tarnish that article? It hasn't damaged Jew or American Jews, so why the worry? — Malik Shabazz ( talk · contribs) 04:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Despite the fact that Gloria Steinem is not a Jew, her photo is shown on the header of the page "American Jews." As stated in the article on Gloria Steinem in Wikipedia: Steinem was born in Toledo, Ohio. Her mother, Ruth (née Nuneviller), was of part German descent. Her Jewish father, Leo Steinem, was a traveling antiques dealer (with trailer and family in tow) and the son of immigrants from Germany and Poland.[1] The family split in 1944, when he went to California to find work while Gloria lived with her mother in Toledo.
Her photo should be removed, but by policy it can only be removed after discussion. 69.114.217.217 ( talk) 03:25, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Why isn't there a single religious (Orthodox) person there? How about, I don't know, Michael Medved? 84.228.107.45 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC).
This section seems to be devoted to the bizarre notion that anti-Zionist attitudes among Jews contributed to the Holocaust. Regardless of personal feelings about Zionism, I think it's pretty clear that this section is both inaccurate and highly biased. Bluemonkee ( talk) 06:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a constant attempt to add Agnosticism or Atheism to the religion tags of American Jews. American Jews are of the Jewish religion, by definition, whether they practice it or not. I know there seem to be all sorts of polls that say that there are a whole lot of Agnostic or Atheistic American Jews. I know they exist. But, I think that is more a city/coast thing more than Jewish. Growing up in NYC, I know far more none-practicing Catholics than I do Jews. If you took a poll of NYers or Los Angelans, or Chicagoans, I suspect that you'd find high numbers of agnostics and atheists there amongst all religious groups. Judaism is a religion, and there are a few cultural similarities among the world's Jews that allow some to mischaracterize it as an ethnic group too. But the religion of Jews, is Judaism, plain and simple, not Agnostic, not Atheist, not Protestant, etc. Sposer ( talk) 21:44, 29 November 2009 (UTC)