![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
DferDaisy Hi there, in regards to the changes you made to the categorization of this article I recently created, I agree with the removal of the ranching categories. I even think I should probably remove the category American cattlemen. However, removal from the category Bulls does not make sense. The category is so small already and filled with pages of all different types of articles. If an article about a cattle breed and registry does not belong in a Bulls category, then I am really at a loss? Same argument for the Livestock category but more flexible on that one. But even more unfounded is the removal of the Cattle and Cattle:Breeding categories. The category Canadian Cattlemen's Association is in the Cattle category but American Bucking Bull is not relevant there? But on to the last category Cattle:Breeding. American Bucking Bull is a registered cattle breed. How is it not relevant in a category about cattle breeding?? I don't want to play around with edit reverting so I'm bringing this to a discussion. What say you? Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 02:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
No reply from editor so went ahead and added categories back. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
DferDaisy Hi, thanks for pointing out all of those things, I did not realize. I will remove all but one. Professional Bull Riders owns half of the organization American Bucking Bulls currently. Their first CEO, Randy Bernard, bought the registry from Buckers, Inc., and started the American Bucking Bull organization. I believe that is a defining characteristic. Besides the fact that the PBR also runs events in conjunction with the ABBI like the Classic Event at the PBR World Finals, where the ABBI World Champion Classic Bull is crowned. Also, ABBI bulls buck at PBR events and are awarded World Champion Bull, and also the Brand of Honor. It's what makes a bull notable for inclusion into Wikipedia. In fact, I will edit the article to make that Classic event at the PBR World Finals clearer. But I get your point about defining characteristics. I appreciate your efforts very much. And will pay more attention next time to make sure I'm not putting an article into a category and its sub-category. dawnleelynn (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Tigerboy1966 Thank you Tigerboy1996, for the idea of adding photographs to this article, it was a lovely thought. However, it's a whoops! Because the images are fair use only and the rules stated in their use say they can only be used once in the bull's article, we can't use them here. However, montanabw did provide a rationale for using Bodacious in the article, this one: Bodacious is deceased now, but he is the inspiration for the creation of the American bucking bull breed. As such, exemplifies the ideal for the cattle breed. I'm going to try it, and the editor who usually pulls the fair use images out of articles will either pull it out or let us use it. It's worth a try. There is an automated system that notifies editors who patrol fair use image usage. Thanks again, I'm also going to add a couple images from commons, including an image of a bull 909 Runaway Train, who I took a picture of myself at last year's Cheyenne Frontier Days when I was behind the chutes and maybe a photo from the bull or bucking bull articles. Thank you again. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, SMcCandlish I appreciate your thought in this edit, but I need to revert this edit because the American Bucking Bull actually is a registered cattle breed according to many sources:
dawnleelynn (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
There's a
WP:COATRACK here, where an animal breed article's content is basically hidden inside an article on an organization. This is not how we do things. The breed article should be split out to
American Bucking Bull cattle, with {{
Infobox cattle breed}}
and the normal sections for a breed article, like "Breed characteristics", "History", "Genetics", or whatever we'll have the sources for. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 18:46, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
My thoughts - multiple breeds/mixed breeds comprise the American Bucking Bull Inc., which is a "DNA registry" dedicated less to establishing a breed, and more to the purpose of the registry which is basically to reproduce the best bucking stock with hopes of achieving inheritable conformity/consistency through genetics. They are breeding lineage with the desirable characteristics of bucking bulls, specifically bad tempers and a propensity to buck, and are utilizing science to do it; i.e., molecular techniques and genetic mapping. Without the registry, "American bucking bull" is a ubiquitous term better suited for Wiktionary rather than a WP article; therefore, I could see changing the name of the article (a move to American Bucking Bull Inc. or a section in this article that speaks to the registry) along with some copyediting here and there. I don't think a fork (or separate article) is necessary. Atsme 📞 📧 21:22, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, it's not actually a "breed". In an article in American Cattleman, a former exec of ABBI said, "“There’s no set breed, there’s just a lot of Heinz 57 sauce to make bucking bulls,” Simpson explained. “We don’t look for one set breed. We just look for the best cow and best bull to mate.” It's appears to be a privately held for-profit corporation with shareholders. The ABBI sponsors shows and doles out prize money, and are owned 50/50 by PBR and some stock contractors. It's a commercial enterprise working to maintain a healthy bottomline. Passing mention in the NYTimes said ABBI helps owners who are looking to breed potential bucking prospects: "the A.B.B.I. tracks the lineage of every premier dam and sire and the bucking success of their offspring." Hope that information helps. Atsme 📞 📧 04:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
(moved from here) Hey, Mac - American Bucking Bull - re: your proposed split. The ABBI is a division of PBR (they own part of that private corporation along with a group of stock contractors), but the article is not ready for any content forks. They refer to it as a "breed" but that questionable at this point in time because there are multiple breeds involved - it's more like hoping the right genetic mix will create the desirable characteristics - so all they really have is a DNA database. I doubt it would pass WP:CORP as a standalone. I'm not familiar with the process at Wikipedia talk:Proposed mergers#Proposed splits, so would it be easier if you withdraw it, or do can we proceed with a local close? Thx in advance.... Atsme 📞 📧 22:14, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
[7] Is that finally good enough to show they are serious about breeding? They may be more, I'm still researching. How about Bushwacker who has a breeders certificate and was worth $1 million at the top of his bucking career in 2014. These are not games to the PBR and the stock contractors; this is serious business. There are many more bulls listed on that participants page who are champions or high level buckers worth six figures at the top of their careers, yes careers.
References
The USDA does not "recognize" breeds to speak of and has not done so for 100 years. They may keep some lists of some breeds just to make the EU happy, but that is almost entirely import/export driven and all a breed group has to do is fill out paperwork as far as I can tell. I think this is the only registry that records rodeo bulls in the USA and their use of DNA parentage testing is a big deal. We have the "generic" article at Bucking bull. Probably need to redirect the redirect. Montanabw (talk) 21:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Conservation status | Least Concern |
---|---|
Country of origin | United States |
Distribution | North America, South America, Europe, Australia |
Use | Rodeo Bucking Bull |
Traits | |
Weight |
|
Skin color | Multiple |
Coat | Multiple |
Horn status | Polled, Horned |
|
The American Bucking Bull breed is a breed of cattle bred to buck for rodeo and bull riding circuits. It is an American breed tracked and registered by the American Bucking Bull, Inc., corporation. The breed is a mixture of several different breeds, selected for their ornery dispositions and propensity to buck. Bulls are many different coat colors and sizes. The breed can be polled or horned. Cattle that naturally do not have horns are referred to as polled, or muleys.
Through the registration of bull DNA, the American Bucking Bull, Inc., records and maintains the pedigrees of preeminent livestock. The organization provides services to assist with bull practices. By recording and registering bucking bulls and their progeny, the registry promotes the American Bucking Bull breed and encourages growth. The ABBI also produces many competitive events for bucking bulls, some in conjunction with the Professional Bull Riders (PBR).
I've now blanked this page because of this. There's also a good deal of (relatively) minor copying and/or close following of several other sources. The whole text needs to be checked or rewritten from scratch. To create a rewrite page, please follow this link. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:33, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Bodacious changed the way rodeo animals are bred. Before him, most bulls were a dubious commodity—worth more for beef than for bucking cowboys. A rancher might get a hundred dollars every time his bull was ridden, twice that much at big events. The riders made the real money—they were the ones that people came to see. Bodacious changed that equation. People who’d never heard of Tuff Hedeman knew the name of the bull who’d “rearranged his face,” as Hedeman’s wife later put it. | Bodacious changed the way rodeo animals are bred. Before him, most bulls were a dubious commodity—worth more for beef than for bucking cowboys. A rancher might get a hundred dollars every time his bull was ridden, twice that much at big events. The riders made the real money—they were the ones that people came to see. Bodacious changed that equation. People who’d never heard of Tuff Hedeman knew the name of the bull who’d “rearranged his face,” as Hedeman’s wife later put it. |
Justlettersandnumbers, thank you for overseeing the issues and for explaining to Dawnleelynn. Atsme 📞 📧 12:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers Just a note saying I've been working on a new draft of the article in the temp space. I wasn't sure if I made it clear. You said it had to be done from scratch, that the one I fixed wasn't usable. I want to make you knew I was doing this as it states in the directions I am supposed to leave a note on the talk page. It is close to being completed, actually. Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
Just a quick drive-by comment on all this drama. First off, by American standards, yes, this is a breed. Most American animal breeds have one national registry, and most national registries do promotion of the breed. So whether we go cattle breed or organization, ABBI will pass GNG. This is, I think the only organization that does record bucking bulls, and the big deal is that the verify parentage via DNA. In that sense, it's a
open registry of sorts, but perfectly legitimate. Other than that, the
stock contractors just name their string, but no independent records are kept. I suppose there's an argument for a generic "rodeo bull" article,but and we also already have
bull riding, which talks about rodeo bulls. Also, a generic article would be 90% about ABBI bulls and 10% about stock contractors. Bottom line is that I think this conversation is getting bogged down in a discussion of HOW to rewrite, not WHAT to rewrite. My thinking is that all that matters now is what earwig says about the most current version, and if the most current version is about the best topic and right focus.
Montanabw
(talk) 20:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Uricarrillo94 Hi, thanks for all the work you did on this article! dawnleelynn (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Happy to help when I can, Dawn. Uricarrillo94 ( talk) 02:08, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
DferDaisy Hi there, in regards to the changes you made to the categorization of this article I recently created, I agree with the removal of the ranching categories. I even think I should probably remove the category American cattlemen. However, removal from the category Bulls does not make sense. The category is so small already and filled with pages of all different types of articles. If an article about a cattle breed and registry does not belong in a Bulls category, then I am really at a loss? Same argument for the Livestock category but more flexible on that one. But even more unfounded is the removal of the Cattle and Cattle:Breeding categories. The category Canadian Cattlemen's Association is in the Cattle category but American Bucking Bull is not relevant there? But on to the last category Cattle:Breeding. American Bucking Bull is a registered cattle breed. How is it not relevant in a category about cattle breeding?? I don't want to play around with edit reverting so I'm bringing this to a discussion. What say you? Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 02:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
No reply from editor so went ahead and added categories back. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
DferDaisy Hi, thanks for pointing out all of those things, I did not realize. I will remove all but one. Professional Bull Riders owns half of the organization American Bucking Bulls currently. Their first CEO, Randy Bernard, bought the registry from Buckers, Inc., and started the American Bucking Bull organization. I believe that is a defining characteristic. Besides the fact that the PBR also runs events in conjunction with the ABBI like the Classic Event at the PBR World Finals, where the ABBI World Champion Classic Bull is crowned. Also, ABBI bulls buck at PBR events and are awarded World Champion Bull, and also the Brand of Honor. It's what makes a bull notable for inclusion into Wikipedia. In fact, I will edit the article to make that Classic event at the PBR World Finals clearer. But I get your point about defining characteristics. I appreciate your efforts very much. And will pay more attention next time to make sure I'm not putting an article into a category and its sub-category. dawnleelynn (talk) 16:24, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Tigerboy1966 Thank you Tigerboy1996, for the idea of adding photographs to this article, it was a lovely thought. However, it's a whoops! Because the images are fair use only and the rules stated in their use say they can only be used once in the bull's article, we can't use them here. However, montanabw did provide a rationale for using Bodacious in the article, this one: Bodacious is deceased now, but he is the inspiration for the creation of the American bucking bull breed. As such, exemplifies the ideal for the cattle breed. I'm going to try it, and the editor who usually pulls the fair use images out of articles will either pull it out or let us use it. It's worth a try. There is an automated system that notifies editors who patrol fair use image usage. Thanks again, I'm also going to add a couple images from commons, including an image of a bull 909 Runaway Train, who I took a picture of myself at last year's Cheyenne Frontier Days when I was behind the chutes and maybe a photo from the bull or bucking bull articles. Thank you again. dawnleelynn (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, SMcCandlish I appreciate your thought in this edit, but I need to revert this edit because the American Bucking Bull actually is a registered cattle breed according to many sources:
dawnleelynn (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
There's a
WP:COATRACK here, where an animal breed article's content is basically hidden inside an article on an organization. This is not how we do things. The breed article should be split out to
American Bucking Bull cattle, with {{
Infobox cattle breed}}
and the normal sections for a breed article, like "Breed characteristics", "History", "Genetics", or whatever we'll have the sources for. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 18:46, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
My thoughts - multiple breeds/mixed breeds comprise the American Bucking Bull Inc., which is a "DNA registry" dedicated less to establishing a breed, and more to the purpose of the registry which is basically to reproduce the best bucking stock with hopes of achieving inheritable conformity/consistency through genetics. They are breeding lineage with the desirable characteristics of bucking bulls, specifically bad tempers and a propensity to buck, and are utilizing science to do it; i.e., molecular techniques and genetic mapping. Without the registry, "American bucking bull" is a ubiquitous term better suited for Wiktionary rather than a WP article; therefore, I could see changing the name of the article (a move to American Bucking Bull Inc. or a section in this article that speaks to the registry) along with some copyediting here and there. I don't think a fork (or separate article) is necessary. Atsme 📞 📧 21:22, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, it's not actually a "breed". In an article in American Cattleman, a former exec of ABBI said, "“There’s no set breed, there’s just a lot of Heinz 57 sauce to make bucking bulls,” Simpson explained. “We don’t look for one set breed. We just look for the best cow and best bull to mate.” It's appears to be a privately held for-profit corporation with shareholders. The ABBI sponsors shows and doles out prize money, and are owned 50/50 by PBR and some stock contractors. It's a commercial enterprise working to maintain a healthy bottomline. Passing mention in the NYTimes said ABBI helps owners who are looking to breed potential bucking prospects: "the A.B.B.I. tracks the lineage of every premier dam and sire and the bucking success of their offspring." Hope that information helps. Atsme 📞 📧 04:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
(moved from here) Hey, Mac - American Bucking Bull - re: your proposed split. The ABBI is a division of PBR (they own part of that private corporation along with a group of stock contractors), but the article is not ready for any content forks. They refer to it as a "breed" but that questionable at this point in time because there are multiple breeds involved - it's more like hoping the right genetic mix will create the desirable characteristics - so all they really have is a DNA database. I doubt it would pass WP:CORP as a standalone. I'm not familiar with the process at Wikipedia talk:Proposed mergers#Proposed splits, so would it be easier if you withdraw it, or do can we proceed with a local close? Thx in advance.... Atsme 📞 📧 22:14, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
[7] Is that finally good enough to show they are serious about breeding? They may be more, I'm still researching. How about Bushwacker who has a breeders certificate and was worth $1 million at the top of his bucking career in 2014. These are not games to the PBR and the stock contractors; this is serious business. There are many more bulls listed on that participants page who are champions or high level buckers worth six figures at the top of their careers, yes careers.
References
The USDA does not "recognize" breeds to speak of and has not done so for 100 years. They may keep some lists of some breeds just to make the EU happy, but that is almost entirely import/export driven and all a breed group has to do is fill out paperwork as far as I can tell. I think this is the only registry that records rodeo bulls in the USA and their use of DNA parentage testing is a big deal. We have the "generic" article at Bucking bull. Probably need to redirect the redirect. Montanabw (talk) 21:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Conservation status | Least Concern |
---|---|
Country of origin | United States |
Distribution | North America, South America, Europe, Australia |
Use | Rodeo Bucking Bull |
Traits | |
Weight |
|
Skin color | Multiple |
Coat | Multiple |
Horn status | Polled, Horned |
|
The American Bucking Bull breed is a breed of cattle bred to buck for rodeo and bull riding circuits. It is an American breed tracked and registered by the American Bucking Bull, Inc., corporation. The breed is a mixture of several different breeds, selected for their ornery dispositions and propensity to buck. Bulls are many different coat colors and sizes. The breed can be polled or horned. Cattle that naturally do not have horns are referred to as polled, or muleys.
Through the registration of bull DNA, the American Bucking Bull, Inc., records and maintains the pedigrees of preeminent livestock. The organization provides services to assist with bull practices. By recording and registering bucking bulls and their progeny, the registry promotes the American Bucking Bull breed and encourages growth. The ABBI also produces many competitive events for bucking bulls, some in conjunction with the Professional Bull Riders (PBR).
I've now blanked this page because of this. There's also a good deal of (relatively) minor copying and/or close following of several other sources. The whole text needs to be checked or rewritten from scratch. To create a rewrite page, please follow this link. Justlettersandnumbers ( talk) 13:33, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Our article | The source |
---|---|
Bodacious changed the way rodeo animals are bred. Before him, most bulls were a dubious commodity—worth more for beef than for bucking cowboys. A rancher might get a hundred dollars every time his bull was ridden, twice that much at big events. The riders made the real money—they were the ones that people came to see. Bodacious changed that equation. People who’d never heard of Tuff Hedeman knew the name of the bull who’d “rearranged his face,” as Hedeman’s wife later put it. | Bodacious changed the way rodeo animals are bred. Before him, most bulls were a dubious commodity—worth more for beef than for bucking cowboys. A rancher might get a hundred dollars every time his bull was ridden, twice that much at big events. The riders made the real money—they were the ones that people came to see. Bodacious changed that equation. People who’d never heard of Tuff Hedeman knew the name of the bull who’d “rearranged his face,” as Hedeman’s wife later put it. |
Justlettersandnumbers, thank you for overseeing the issues and for explaining to Dawnleelynn. Atsme 📞 📧 12:54, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Justlettersandnumbers Just a note saying I've been working on a new draft of the article in the temp space. I wasn't sure if I made it clear. You said it had to be done from scratch, that the one I fixed wasn't usable. I want to make you knew I was doing this as it states in the directions I am supposed to leave a note on the talk page. It is close to being completed, actually. Thanks. dawnleelynn (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
Just a quick drive-by comment on all this drama. First off, by American standards, yes, this is a breed. Most American animal breeds have one national registry, and most national registries do promotion of the breed. So whether we go cattle breed or organization, ABBI will pass GNG. This is, I think the only organization that does record bucking bulls, and the big deal is that the verify parentage via DNA. In that sense, it's a
open registry of sorts, but perfectly legitimate. Other than that, the
stock contractors just name their string, but no independent records are kept. I suppose there's an argument for a generic "rodeo bull" article,but and we also already have
bull riding, which talks about rodeo bulls. Also, a generic article would be 90% about ABBI bulls and 10% about stock contractors. Bottom line is that I think this conversation is getting bogged down in a discussion of HOW to rewrite, not WHAT to rewrite. My thinking is that all that matters now is what earwig says about the most current version, and if the most current version is about the best topic and right focus.
Montanabw
(talk) 20:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Uricarrillo94 Hi, thanks for all the work you did on this article! dawnleelynn (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Happy to help when I can, Dawn. Uricarrillo94 ( talk) 02:08, 4 December 2022 (UTC)