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While it is true that the ABI and others market plaques etc. as a bye-product of being listed, this is never a criteria for being listed. Each firm is entitled to their business model and its naive to expect a plaque to be issued free (perhaps the Nobel...) or for them not to earn any money (they do not represent the government).
There is a genuine review process of persons listed although like any other human process it has its error rate. There are some real examples of errors of judgement of these institutes but many of the articles attempting to pull down this business model are by people who are either too idealistic (read "stupid") or simply plain jealous of a peer who got listed but they did not! The ABI for example, is quoted on the bio of many leading persons (including graduates from Harvard) who do respect the fact that they got listed in the first place - its naive to expect all of them to be "suckers". Its more strategic where these people like the branding that these publications confer on them.
By and large the publications are of a decent 95-97% quality with a 3-5% error rate. Also true that they do rely on other prestigous listings (such as Marquis) and there is a whole load of internet research which gets done. The latter is the principal source of risk.
The most prestigious listing is Marquis (over 100 years) who have been reviewed by The New York Times, 2005 where they called them an "authoritative tool and valid portrait of [American] society". Forbes 2006 lists refers to Marquis as one source. An earlier 1999 article by Forbes criticised Marquis, but it's since been taken over and their current reference to Marquis obviously reflects their confidence.
In conclusion, yes these products are imperfect but are still a valuable source of information - they profile people from around the world in different walks of life (nothing wrong with a leading Chef being listed unless we're saying that Chefs don't contribute...). There is currently no valid replacement for these products as the free awards (like the Nobel or a specific countries national awards) go to a handful of people (and there are political undercurrents to these awards...) who are a fraction of the achievers in different walks of life who much deserve recognition/ are an important source of information for researchers.
Hence instead of making a webpage on ABI under fraud, the author would do well to do proper research and think out his arguements. Regards, Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 05:14- 05:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (Note: A url in this post was changed in the 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC) revision by user Dominique Blanc.)
Well, I'm not sure how good or bad your credentials are... it is true that both ABI and IBC Cambridge titles are "sensationalist" in nature but that is the way they market their products. Both products are used by numerous libraries. Marquis for example, is used by the US Embassy librariesand also by respected universities such as Northwesternand Harvard's Biography Resource Center.
Specificly, on ABI (and I have seen their offer letters to senior people) - they have a covering letter confirming selection and a questionnaire asking for details. A third form allows you to select a Plaque should you want one - this is always always optional. You seem to be against them for some reason, did your peer get selected who you're trying to pull down?
Maustrauser - I suspect that ABI will view your article as Defamation. I am also amazed that you simply deleted my para - you obviously don't want another point-of-view to be even given a chance! I'm adding my piece as a SEE ALSO URL - don't delete it again or I will take up the matter with WIKIPEDIA that you're suppressing another's opinion.
Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:05- 07:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (Note: A url in this post was changed in the 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC) revision by Dominique Blanc.)
The main article must quote third party opinions, not the TALK PAGE - that's my view of the topic (thats why its called a discussion page...) Point is that there is another point-of-view which is not being currently taken up by your article (or even recognised). Why don't you recognise it? Yes, I agree that Marquis is the most respected of the Who's Who publications.
Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added my comments under the dispute page
I have NOT suggested that you have made DELETIONS FROM THE TALK PAGE - you've made deletions from the main article as if its your exclusive right to display one point of view! I have raised the issue that your own article is based more on your personal opinion and are unsubstantiated allegations against a 40 year old firm and does not admit to a contrarian opinion/is not balanced. I have serious reservations on your approach as it amounts to DEFAMATION. If ABI was a fraudulent institution, why has the US GOVERNMENT not shut it down over 40 years?? Paul Davies (I will NOT sign with four tildes as it links up to another PAUL DAVIES different from me) 10:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 10:00- 10:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
You've registered the article under the FRAUD section and disclaim responsibility... I suspect that ABI would not take that view. Please specify that Tucker's Forbes article is dated 1999, and they themselves refer to Marquis today for their 2006 lists. Paul Davies 10:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 10:50- 11:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Have you fellows worked this out? I read the article, and it looks pretty good to me. Atom 23:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The article looks fine to me and Maustrauser seems ot be going otu of his way to be fair about what is in essence a company which dupes the foolish and vain. StuartDouglas 15:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article says the ABI "operates by writing to individuals who have been cited elsewhere and invites them to be included for a fee." That would seem to indicate that they have some standards. But when this guy, a bar owner/crackpot historian, receives several ABI awards (including "ambassador of grand eminence"), I have a hard time believing the ABI has any kind of standards for who gets an award. -- Mwalcoff 23:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting link but it does not refer to any ABI award! I'm seeing this article as a diliberate attempt by a group of people to defame ABI. Paul Davies 02:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 02:10- 02:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You must check out your facts before spreading misinformation (or is this deliberate…). Please check out the ABI and IBC publications at the links provided - ABI Publications, and IBC Publications. These chaps don’t market any product for “Ambassador of Grand Eminence” (and neither does the gent specify either ABI or IBC). Both publications are quoted on the CVs of leading academics who have obviously checked them out. PLEASE STOP YOUR DEFAMATION ATTEMPT. Paul Davies 03:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 03:04- 03:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This was unacceptable in its previous form, and I hope those readers who voiced their complaints about the previous biased and cynical tone and content will approve the changes. The references remain, however, but can now be evaluated in the context of a more positive evaluation of an organisation which I believe is motivated by good and by faith in the human race, even if they have somehow to confront the critics by the inevitable need to finance their work! Dominique 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems - unless I am mistaken - that you entered the debate well after the present form of the article was established. The 'Ambassador of Grand Eminence' issue I regarded as 'comic relief', assigning it to the 3-5% error rate mooted by one contributor. I myself have had reservations about the 'Awards' market, but have taken the view that it is up to the recipients themselves - who are by and large intelligent and perceptive honorees - to decide whether it is worth forking out for an acknowledgement of their work and distinctiveness within the human scheme of accomplishment (as assessed by the ABI or similar). My position however is that however flawed the qualification, the individuals singled out for special mention in the (basically free) publications, and/or selected for special attainment awards, are gifted and dedicated members of the human race, and by mounting an attack on the instigator of their elevation to international uniqueness, one is doing them a disservice. Hence my view that the acceptability of the article depends on avoiding any imbalance between exposing alleged 'fraudulence' in the operation of the publishers, and the benefits which may well accrue to those individuals whose work and dedication are acknowledged in the pages of their publications. After all, not all of the biographees succumb to the allure of beautifully crafted plaques and medals, and may be content to settle for lower-level documentation of their accomplishments. It is probably true to say that there are many deserving people who are destined for a life of obscurity unlikely to be alleviated by major awards. You mention Rfc and third opinion. The first has already been tried somewhat ineffectively judging by one or two third-party comments such as ...."a company which dupes the foolish and vain." Third-party opinions may not be any more objective.
If you are serious in wishing to balance the article, I would suggest a re-write of the first paragraph avoiding subjective expressions such as 'professes', claims, vanity press, operates etc., which would immediately raise the level to 'encyclopedic' objectivity. I note that in my own version I did raise a note of negativity in the first paragraph, but ideally this should be delayed until the main body of information is delivered without subjective comment. The awards can be listed, and at this point it would be quite legitimate to make a point about the 'multiplicity' of the awards, and the 'difficulty' of allocating them. I found one interesting reference which says it all: http://timgoodwin.tripod.com/biography.htm
Re sources, it is not enough merely to concentrate on ill-written letters and journalistic comments by cynical or disaffected people of doubtful accreditation. How representative are they? Similarly, on the positive side, one has to rely almost exclusively on the body of biographees as evidence of their faith in the validity of their inclusion or awards. So it is difficult to avoid the charge of 'taking up a position' or venting 'an opinion'. This is why, for an objective statement, one has to state facts, and facts alone.
I hope this is of some relevance. Dominique 23:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I see that my original assessment of any exchange on these issues was right - you are not going to change your mind. Your basic approach is that the ABI are fraudulent, and that this should be exposed. My position is that they do perform a service, and that many individuals and institutions acknowledge this. Unfortunately I have no ABI publication to refer to, but I do possess a copy of the IBC 'Cambridge Blue Book' which I - as a biographee - chose to purchase, although I didn't have to. (The IBC is also classed in WP as 'vanity press') It would be of interest to know if these organisations are at all interested in the unfavorable press they have in WP, or indeed whether the disparaging descriptions of their work has any effect on the take-up of citations and awards. I note incidentally that Juan Carlos (King of Spain) and George W Bush are biographees in the IBC publication.
Mr Bush also has coverage in a WP dedicated article. This can afford us an interesting illustration of how a controversial - indeed much criticised - subject can treated in a professional and balanced way. The writers of the article do not avoid mentioning controversy or criticism, or even the dubious nature of his election success, but this in no way dominates the profile, though doubtless there are many who would wish otherwise. The language is measured and objective, and the negatives are stated without giving the impression that the writer (or writers) is expressing a personal opinion.
Obviously, the matter of the ABI article will now need input from (qualified) third-parties. At least they will have plenty of material to assist their enquiry. Incidentally, my biography in the ABI publication was written by the publishers, and as I have said there was no charge for inclusion. Dominique 14:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, the entire lead paragraph needs to be re-worked. Using a derogatory phrase like "vanity press" without a supporting citation is a clear violation of WP:NPOV. The lead paragraph also uses scare quotes, which conveys a negative, not neutral impression. Furthermore, there is no reason to quote the web site in the lead; it's enough present the claim with a reference. The lead paragraph gives the distinct impression that Wikipedia has taken the position that ABI is a scam. Wikipedia can't take such positions about any subject, which is why the WP:NPOV policy exists.
While you're at it, you might also want to clean up the inconsistency in references; some are footnotes, some are direct links in the text. - Amatulic 21:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Since my re-write started the current argument, I would be grateful for a 'third opinion' on the lead paragraph in that version. It is wrong to concentrate on the 'honors for sale' argument at the outset. The honorees are genuinely distinguished – some very eminent indeed - and would not have paid a cent for inclusion. The prizes and awards are a separate issue, and should be dealt with separately, and accurately. The books are by the way sold also to libraries and other institutions. The ‘vanity press’ expression is thus too controversial to be part of the initial definition of the subject.
Earlier revision of 13 July in full (Link keeps reverting, hence need to quote text here):
The American Biographical Institute, Inc is a United States based company based in North Carolina, which - like its sister company in Cambridge, England (the 'International Biographical Centre') - publishes biographical information about people based on their achievements. It has, however, attracted criticism from some quarters, since it offers awards of various kinds to selected biographees on payment of a fee, though by and large entries in the various publications are made without charge.
“ Participants in the American Biographical Institute's books write their own biographies and submit their own photos, according to the preface of the Great Minds of the 21st Century. ”
[1]
As their website states, it is: One of the world’s leading biographical reference publishers and authorities on global contemporary achievement. Founded in 1967, the Institute has exposed the biographies of outstanding men and women, the world over, in more than 150 separate reference volumes. During its nearly forty-year history, the ABI has recognized the deeds of outstanding men and women through the acknowledgement of professional documentation, and the tradition of biographical research and record. [3]
The position is clarified: Inclusion in an ABI reference title is based on personal achievement alone and is not available for purchase, [4]. Information about potential candidates for inclusion is drawn from various sources including recommendations by biographees already selected. The screening and selection of candidates is subject to rigorous evaluation by the Governing Board of the ABI under the direction of the President/Chairman, J M Evans.
The viability and appropriateness ofthe work of the Institute is vindicated by the large number of acceptances and support from distinguished individuals world-wide. By offering civil awards and certification of achievement across the gamut of cultural, scientific, educational and political fields, the ABI recognises - if imperfectly - the work of thousands of deserving professionals for whom there are too few governmental, national or international honors available. Thecynics andcritics must have a voice, though the principal charge of 'commercialism' does not stand up against the positive outcome of the Institute's commitment to human effort and accomplishment across the globe.[2] ABI reference books (incl. The World Book of Knowledge which retails for US$795) [3] ), are made available to libraries and universities worldwide. [4]
Strike-out phrases can be deleted. Italicised sentence (or sentiments) should appear later.
The following statement (from ABI) is a negation of the accusing tone of the current format:
Copies of all American Biographical Institute publications are correctly registered and sent to the Library of Congress, Washington D.C.; official U.S. state libraries; major international libraries and archives; specialized libraries and businesses the world over. Publications are distributed also to public, private, and international libraries that have placed individual or standing orders, as well as to professional agencies and organizations. Included biographies also have the option to place a personal reservation, but only if they so choose.
Refer [2]
Regarding citations in the article, many of these are by investigative journalists and cannot be seen as fair judgement. These include Australian press comment which is hardly conclusive: note the 'Peace Prize Scam' fiasco: [3] The inclusion, by way of reference, of cv's and illustrations of awards or certificates in no way advances the 'scam' argument. Dominique 10:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Dominique: In my opinion, your version is even more of a violation of the WP:NPOV policy than the version to which I originally offered a third opinion. I'll make some points:
The purpose of a third opinion is to serve as a tie-breaking vote between two disagreeing editors. When I came to this article, however, I didn't agree with either of you. The lead paragraph has improved over the version I saw initially, but Dominique's proposal to include glowing language about ABI with only passing mention (and dismissal) of criticism would skew the POV in the other direction. That is unacceptable. - Amatulic 20:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A proper evaluation will of course need input from more users, though I respect the intelligence that you bring to bear on this interpretation. Certainly my version was written as a 'corrective' to the existing article, since I was rather shocked at the language! You will notice that I have not been active in insisting on its 'publication'. Basically, an encyclopedic article should - as you implied in your opening remarks - avoid opinions or what sounds like opinions, and concentrate on substance. In this case the priority at the beginning would be surely to say that ABI is a publishing co., specify what it does, its significance i.e. size, coverage, its connections. Its methods, business practice should come second. Suggestions of duping the public (which in this case represent the higher echelons of intelligent humanity) and running a scam should certainly come third or later, unless you feel the whole outfit is a scam.
If you felt that my input (revision effort and talk page) was more POV than the version at present representing the interests of 'truth and legitimacy', you should have made that clear from the beginning. Your challenge to the original author was quite strong, but you seem to be very quickly mollified by his cosmetic changes which did not remove the POV effect, even if the 'vanity press' description became acceptable to you. As for the citations, these seem to relate to prizes and awards rather than the business of publishing biographies, and are journalistic in tone.
The problem is that it is much easier to find vociferous critics of an International Publishing Co who get revenue from awards to their nominees than advocates of the work that they do. These advocates include institutions who buy the books, and the biographees themselves whatever their motives, and whether they buy copies or not. Many of the 'distinguished persons' represented have no reason to give opinions good or bad about the publisher, but they can't think it is a bad idea otherwise why would they bother getting involved. My reference was not an 'argumentum ad numerum', but rather an 'argumentum ab auctoritate'. Incidentally encyclopedias do not command a large buying public, so the publisher has to make ends meet somehow. Personally I don't see anything wrong with offering (reduced price) copies to persons represented in the pages. And I don't think it is particularly 'vain' for those persons to consider buying. The question of the awards is, as I've said, a separate matter.
Re Library of Congress etc you say "Mentioning this fact seems like a misleading way to inflate a presumption of significance and notability." But it is a fact, and not an assumption or a way of sustaining a dubious argument. Should it not be mentioned in order to avoid giving the impression of significance or notability? In any case, it is important to rectify the omission in the article by stating that the ABI sells to libraries and other institutions and not just to honorees. The other 'significant' fact is of course 'no payment for entry', and at this time I can only verify that from experience (ABI and IBC publications). (One can pay for an enhanced entry e.g. with a photo, which a few choose to do). Therein lies the difficulty of verifying the 'positive', no problem it seems with the 'negative'.
'Conflict of interest', not exactly (I do ask questions about the awards), but in a sense I back my own argument in saying that you would have to look to the honorees to say positive things about the ABI!
'Glowing language' - only insofar as I felt it necessary to quote from the ABI website or the current article quotes for information. I certainly didn't want to rely on journalism or 'anti-elitist' Australian politicians (many of whom are intent on rubbishing the British monarchy, for a start).
I note that you borrowed the phrase 'an advertisement for the ABI' from the other party to the dispute.
I doubt if the ABI or IBC would be particularly concerned about the description of their enterprise (business, if you prefer) as it is portrayed in these pages. They are unlikely to see it as authoritative. Do you know of any published encyclopedias which list biographical dictionaries? I wonder what they say about the ABI? Dominique 23:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Responses in order:
Conclusion: I can only feel confirmed in my opinion that the application of the term ‘vanity press’, which you see as ‘uncontroversial’, may have to be looked at more closely. The definition afforded through the link is:
1. A vanity press or vanity publisher is a book printer which, while claiming to be a publisher, charges writers a fee in return for publishing their books or otherwise makes most of its money from the author rather than from the public….2.In its very simplest terms, while a commercial publisher's intended market is the general public, a vanity publisher's intended market are the authors themselves….3. Commercial publishers, on the other hand, derive their profit from sales of the book, and must therefore be cautious and deliberate in choosing to publish works that will sell…
Comment:
1. Putting aside the awards question for the moment, the publication of the books does not strictly conform to the Vanity label, since the ‘authors’ (biographees) don’t actually pay for the publication unless they buy the book, the books being otherwise sold to libraries etc.
2. The general public cannot be relied on to buy biographical encyclopedias, so a commercial publisher’s natural retail outlet is denied to specialist producers like ABI, IBC
3. The second part (saleability) does not apply for the same reason
The following definition may be closer:
A vanity publisher is:
"any company which charges a client to publish a book; or offers to include short stories, poems or other literary or artistic material in an anthology and then invites those included in it to buy a copy of that anthology."
(British Advertising Standards Authority Advice Note, Vanity Publishing, July 1997)
But again, this is not a parallel, and I am still persuaded that such publishers as ABI have little choice in the way they market their books. The awards, on the other hand, may be a more legitimate target for the critics, and should accordingly receive – as you seem to agree – separate treatment. Dominique 22:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In offering the following suggested solution, I am conscious of the fact that recent debate on the article has been limited to three editors, my own input being uncomfortably predominant. I hope that the following format will attract further impartial interest (and relevant debate) if not outright approval: it is not intended as a final draft. The main points arising from the recent discussion are:
Re-structured article
The American Biographical Institute is a United States organisation based in North Carolina, which - like its sister company in Cambridge, England (the 'International Biographical Centre')- publishes biographical information about people, their careers and their achievements. The organisation’s website [4] provides the following description:
One of the world’s leading biographical reference publishers and authorities on global contemporary achievement. Founded in 1967, the Institute has exposed the biographies of outstanding men and women, the world over, in more than 150 separate reference volumes. During its nearly forty-year history, the ABI has recognized the deeds of outstanding men and women through the acknowledgement of professional documentation, and the tradition of biographical research and record.
The Institute’s work is based on stated principles:
Funding
ABI receives no revenue from governmental or educational bodies (cf O.U.P.; Australian Dictionary of Biography, Biographical Dictionary of the US. Congress etc), and has limited circulation among the general public.
Vanity Press
Critics have employed the term ‘vanity press’ to describe the business practice of the ABI. Such accusations emanate largely from the ‘popular’ press or personal comments by public figures who base their attacks on the costs levied on honorees who choose to purchase books or to accept awards. The underlying principle, however, of ‘free inclusion’ of selected biographees means that those represented do not pay for publication of their cv’s: a basic tenet of ‘vanity publishing’ is therefore not fulfilled. (See also Marquis Who’s Who)
Awards
With respect to awards, on the other hand, there are recipients who have listed ABI honors and memberships in their cv’s, or who have taken up offers to have their biographies enhanced (e.g. by photos) or highlighted. Such offers require payment to cover costs, which critics see as being appeals to ‘vanity’.* It is again up to individual honorees selected by the Governing Board to decide for themselves the usefulness (or appropriateness) of such ‘symbols’ of achievement, a number of which are reserved for ‘special’ (elite) recipients. The reliability of the selection process relates to the criteria for selection by the Board, who themselves are dependent on internationally established research bodies (ref ABI/research). It is inevitably an imperfect system, but there is evidence (eg Internet) that many distinguished entrants avail themselves of the award choices available, just as there are occasional examples of ‘trophy-hunters’.
*a parallel in the academic world would be a the purchase of robes and hoods to proclaim one’s degree status
Critics have focused on:(i) the multiplicity of the awards available (ii) the marketing of awards (iii) value or prestige to recipients
Sources
Apart from negative articles by journalists in the popular press, and occasional comments by minor public figures who may have been contacted by ABI for possible inclusion, there is a virtual vacuum of information impartial or otherwise about the business practices of the ABI and similar organizations. Critical reviews of publications may provide an insight, or relevant information may be obtained from the analysis of statistical data which, however, would have to be obtained from the company itself.
List of Awards etc
See current article
Published titles include:
Refer ABI website
Dominique
13:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. I'm afraid that in spite of all the work and thought over two weeks, our relative positions remain much the same. The points you make, I believe have been dealt with in some detail already. The two main concerns - conflation and the press - underly your argument: (i) the awards 'scam' (if it is proven) cannot be used to denigrate the publishing activity (the prime activity of the company) (ii) colourful press articles and an absence of serious critiques cannot be seen as a licence to present a profile based on the former. Comparable situation: Have a look at the WP article & talk on 'Jonathan King', a well-known British music entrepreneur arrested on child sex charges. Much debate over the use of 'disgraced' in the opening para - generally felt that media language (newspapers or BBC) relating to a particular circumstance is not appropriate when introducing the subject and his achievements. Some statistical info from ABI could be useful e.g. how many entrants purchase books or awards (if offered)? How much revenue is acquired from the sale of books to libraries and institutions?
I'm sorry not to be able to continue with this project at this time, and hope you can find a resolution of remaining conflicts. I am sure you will want the article to progress beyond its present form, and that you would wish more input - contentious or supportive - from a wider range of editors. Good luck! Dominique 22:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I have researched the “prestigious” awards from the American Biographical Institute (ABI) and from the International Biographical Centre (IBC)…of course not “center”; that would be rather ordinary.
After quite some research there is obviously no doubt in my mind that these organizations are vanity scams based on vanity publications which contain self-published biographies and basically anything you want the award to say for a buck…or in this case more like 200-700 bucks per award, or publication which contains the award. But of course, you don’t just buy your own award of choice, but you have to buy the publication which has your award as well, which itself costs hundreds of dollars, because it is a big book that contains thousands of phony awards…and you can buy some for your friends too, and recommend them as well, or anyone for that matter at their websites.
I don’t know if the situation about these scams is more silly than clever…I mean it is pretty silly for anyone with a few brain cells to give importance to being nominated for such highly claimed international award for having done nothing worth mentioning in their lives, and also for that nothing to have been researched by no one. There is tons of cases when these institutions address a guy with Mrs. and vice versa, even print the award as such…they don’t even bother to research or verify their names and gender, let alone to research their work some state far away, nor some countries oceans away.
On the other hand it is pretty clever scam…you come up with an organization that operates within the loopholes of the law. You are not breaking any promise; people give you money and you give them awards…the money of course to cover the expenses (such a hundreds of dollars for a book or wooden award?!). And you set up your organization for success because you are selling people self-esteem and international recognition. There is that little fact that all of this is false and unsubstantiated by any research (at least for most awards given to most people). But hey, what matters to you is the money, since you are a commercial company, not a scholarly entity. You know that there are lots of people out there who are either stupid or vain, or both, that would buy ABI or IBC rewards and publications of those rewards. So not only do you keep up the business, but you also come to various websites to confront the people who are not stupid enough to buy into your ABI and IBC scam, and have enough integrity and decency to speak up about these scams and caution the others.
Makes me puke…Ralph! - John Q Public 66.197.176.115 12:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following text:
The American Biographical Institute and the International Biographical Centre hold an annual convention each year known as the International Congress on Science, Culture and Arts in the 21st Century. The Congress provides a forum for the artists, scientists, professionals and educators who are biographees to show their works. Selected biographees also conduct seminars at the Congress.[ ABICongress.htm
Simply because the website only refers to the 2005 conference, doesn't mention the IBC and doesn't provide the details as claimed in the para. Further the reference is from ABI itself. Are there any third party references to this "International Congress"? If so, this would make a much better reference. Gillyweed 11:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Addition: People want controversy whereever they can possibly find it, saddeningly enough, people throw stones to decide the better man, woman or intellectual without knowing who or what we are talking about causing scandle and anything derogatory for the sole purpose of this. Has anyone been to the conference? Than how can they slam except from personal experience? Allot of oddballs here who simply conjecture from their moralistic sense and viewpoint which is infact contrary to their own perfectible sense! This discussion is libelous for many, and slanderous for many. Delete! CommonSense Oct.11 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.233.244 ( talk) 17:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
While it is true that the ABI and others market plaques etc. as a bye-product of being listed, this is never a criteria for being listed. Each firm is entitled to their business model and its naive to expect a plaque to be issued free (perhaps the Nobel...) or for them not to earn any money (they do not represent the government).
There is a genuine review process of persons listed although like any other human process it has its error rate. There are some real examples of errors of judgement of these institutes but many of the articles attempting to pull down this business model are by people who are either too idealistic (read "stupid") or simply plain jealous of a peer who got listed but they did not! The ABI for example, is quoted on the bio of many leading persons (including graduates from Harvard) who do respect the fact that they got listed in the first place - its naive to expect all of them to be "suckers". Its more strategic where these people like the branding that these publications confer on them.
By and large the publications are of a decent 95-97% quality with a 3-5% error rate. Also true that they do rely on other prestigous listings (such as Marquis) and there is a whole load of internet research which gets done. The latter is the principal source of risk.
The most prestigious listing is Marquis (over 100 years) who have been reviewed by The New York Times, 2005 where they called them an "authoritative tool and valid portrait of [American] society". Forbes 2006 lists refers to Marquis as one source. An earlier 1999 article by Forbes criticised Marquis, but it's since been taken over and their current reference to Marquis obviously reflects their confidence.
In conclusion, yes these products are imperfect but are still a valuable source of information - they profile people from around the world in different walks of life (nothing wrong with a leading Chef being listed unless we're saying that Chefs don't contribute...). There is currently no valid replacement for these products as the free awards (like the Nobel or a specific countries national awards) go to a handful of people (and there are political undercurrents to these awards...) who are a fraction of the achievers in different walks of life who much deserve recognition/ are an important source of information for researchers.
Hence instead of making a webpage on ABI under fraud, the author would do well to do proper research and think out his arguements. Regards, Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 05:14- 05:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (Note: A url in this post was changed in the 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC) revision by user Dominique Blanc.)
Well, I'm not sure how good or bad your credentials are... it is true that both ABI and IBC Cambridge titles are "sensationalist" in nature but that is the way they market their products. Both products are used by numerous libraries. Marquis for example, is used by the US Embassy librariesand also by respected universities such as Northwesternand Harvard's Biography Resource Center.
Specificly, on ABI (and I have seen their offer letters to senior people) - they have a covering letter confirming selection and a questionnaire asking for details. A third form allows you to select a Plaque should you want one - this is always always optional. You seem to be against them for some reason, did your peer get selected who you're trying to pull down?
Maustrauser - I suspect that ABI will view your article as Defamation. I am also amazed that you simply deleted my para - you obviously don't want another point-of-view to be even given a chance! I'm adding my piece as a SEE ALSO URL - don't delete it again or I will take up the matter with WIKIPEDIA that you're suppressing another's opinion.
Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:05- 07:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC) (Note: A url in this post was changed in the 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC) revision by Dominique Blanc.)
The main article must quote third party opinions, not the TALK PAGE - that's my view of the topic (thats why its called a discussion page...) Point is that there is another point-of-view which is not being currently taken up by your article (or even recognised). Why don't you recognise it? Yes, I agree that Marquis is the most respected of the Who's Who publications.
Paul Davies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 07:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I have added my comments under the dispute page
I have NOT suggested that you have made DELETIONS FROM THE TALK PAGE - you've made deletions from the main article as if its your exclusive right to display one point of view! I have raised the issue that your own article is based more on your personal opinion and are unsubstantiated allegations against a 40 year old firm and does not admit to a contrarian opinion/is not balanced. I have serious reservations on your approach as it amounts to DEFAMATION. If ABI was a fraudulent institution, why has the US GOVERNMENT not shut it down over 40 years?? Paul Davies (I will NOT sign with four tildes as it links up to another PAUL DAVIES different from me) 10:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 10:00- 10:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
You've registered the article under the FRAUD section and disclaim responsibility... I suspect that ABI would not take that view. Please specify that Tucker's Forbes article is dated 1999, and they themselves refer to Marquis today for their 2006 lists. Paul Davies 10:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 10:50- 11:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Have you fellows worked this out? I read the article, and it looks pretty good to me. Atom 23:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
The article looks fine to me and Maustrauser seems ot be going otu of his way to be fair about what is in essence a company which dupes the foolish and vain. StuartDouglas 15:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The article says the ABI "operates by writing to individuals who have been cited elsewhere and invites them to be included for a fee." That would seem to indicate that they have some standards. But when this guy, a bar owner/crackpot historian, receives several ABI awards (including "ambassador of grand eminence"), I have a hard time believing the ABI has any kind of standards for who gets an award. -- Mwalcoff 23:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Interesting link but it does not refer to any ABI award! I'm seeing this article as a diliberate attempt by a group of people to defame ABI. Paul Davies 02:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 02:10- 02:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
You must check out your facts before spreading misinformation (or is this deliberate…). Please check out the ABI and IBC publications at the links provided - ABI Publications, and IBC Publications. These chaps don’t market any product for “Ambassador of Grand Eminence” (and neither does the gent specify either ABI or IBC). Both publications are quoted on the CVs of leading academics who have obviously checked them out. PLEASE STOP YOUR DEFAMATION ATTEMPT. Paul Davies 03:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.142.231 ( talk • contribs) 03:04- 03:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
This was unacceptable in its previous form, and I hope those readers who voiced their complaints about the previous biased and cynical tone and content will approve the changes. The references remain, however, but can now be evaluated in the context of a more positive evaluation of an organisation which I believe is motivated by good and by faith in the human race, even if they have somehow to confront the critics by the inevitable need to finance their work! Dominique 00:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems - unless I am mistaken - that you entered the debate well after the present form of the article was established. The 'Ambassador of Grand Eminence' issue I regarded as 'comic relief', assigning it to the 3-5% error rate mooted by one contributor. I myself have had reservations about the 'Awards' market, but have taken the view that it is up to the recipients themselves - who are by and large intelligent and perceptive honorees - to decide whether it is worth forking out for an acknowledgement of their work and distinctiveness within the human scheme of accomplishment (as assessed by the ABI or similar). My position however is that however flawed the qualification, the individuals singled out for special mention in the (basically free) publications, and/or selected for special attainment awards, are gifted and dedicated members of the human race, and by mounting an attack on the instigator of their elevation to international uniqueness, one is doing them a disservice. Hence my view that the acceptability of the article depends on avoiding any imbalance between exposing alleged 'fraudulence' in the operation of the publishers, and the benefits which may well accrue to those individuals whose work and dedication are acknowledged in the pages of their publications. After all, not all of the biographees succumb to the allure of beautifully crafted plaques and medals, and may be content to settle for lower-level documentation of their accomplishments. It is probably true to say that there are many deserving people who are destined for a life of obscurity unlikely to be alleviated by major awards. You mention Rfc and third opinion. The first has already been tried somewhat ineffectively judging by one or two third-party comments such as ...."a company which dupes the foolish and vain." Third-party opinions may not be any more objective.
If you are serious in wishing to balance the article, I would suggest a re-write of the first paragraph avoiding subjective expressions such as 'professes', claims, vanity press, operates etc., which would immediately raise the level to 'encyclopedic' objectivity. I note that in my own version I did raise a note of negativity in the first paragraph, but ideally this should be delayed until the main body of information is delivered without subjective comment. The awards can be listed, and at this point it would be quite legitimate to make a point about the 'multiplicity' of the awards, and the 'difficulty' of allocating them. I found one interesting reference which says it all: http://timgoodwin.tripod.com/biography.htm
Re sources, it is not enough merely to concentrate on ill-written letters and journalistic comments by cynical or disaffected people of doubtful accreditation. How representative are they? Similarly, on the positive side, one has to rely almost exclusively on the body of biographees as evidence of their faith in the validity of their inclusion or awards. So it is difficult to avoid the charge of 'taking up a position' or venting 'an opinion'. This is why, for an objective statement, one has to state facts, and facts alone.
I hope this is of some relevance. Dominique 23:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I see that my original assessment of any exchange on these issues was right - you are not going to change your mind. Your basic approach is that the ABI are fraudulent, and that this should be exposed. My position is that they do perform a service, and that many individuals and institutions acknowledge this. Unfortunately I have no ABI publication to refer to, but I do possess a copy of the IBC 'Cambridge Blue Book' which I - as a biographee - chose to purchase, although I didn't have to. (The IBC is also classed in WP as 'vanity press') It would be of interest to know if these organisations are at all interested in the unfavorable press they have in WP, or indeed whether the disparaging descriptions of their work has any effect on the take-up of citations and awards. I note incidentally that Juan Carlos (King of Spain) and George W Bush are biographees in the IBC publication.
Mr Bush also has coverage in a WP dedicated article. This can afford us an interesting illustration of how a controversial - indeed much criticised - subject can treated in a professional and balanced way. The writers of the article do not avoid mentioning controversy or criticism, or even the dubious nature of his election success, but this in no way dominates the profile, though doubtless there are many who would wish otherwise. The language is measured and objective, and the negatives are stated without giving the impression that the writer (or writers) is expressing a personal opinion.
Obviously, the matter of the ABI article will now need input from (qualified) third-parties. At least they will have plenty of material to assist their enquiry. Incidentally, my biography in the ABI publication was written by the publishers, and as I have said there was no charge for inclusion. Dominique 14:37, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, the entire lead paragraph needs to be re-worked. Using a derogatory phrase like "vanity press" without a supporting citation is a clear violation of WP:NPOV. The lead paragraph also uses scare quotes, which conveys a negative, not neutral impression. Furthermore, there is no reason to quote the web site in the lead; it's enough present the claim with a reference. The lead paragraph gives the distinct impression that Wikipedia has taken the position that ABI is a scam. Wikipedia can't take such positions about any subject, which is why the WP:NPOV policy exists.
While you're at it, you might also want to clean up the inconsistency in references; some are footnotes, some are direct links in the text. - Amatulic 21:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Since my re-write started the current argument, I would be grateful for a 'third opinion' on the lead paragraph in that version. It is wrong to concentrate on the 'honors for sale' argument at the outset. The honorees are genuinely distinguished – some very eminent indeed - and would not have paid a cent for inclusion. The prizes and awards are a separate issue, and should be dealt with separately, and accurately. The books are by the way sold also to libraries and other institutions. The ‘vanity press’ expression is thus too controversial to be part of the initial definition of the subject.
Earlier revision of 13 July in full (Link keeps reverting, hence need to quote text here):
The American Biographical Institute, Inc is a United States based company based in North Carolina, which - like its sister company in Cambridge, England (the 'International Biographical Centre') - publishes biographical information about people based on their achievements. It has, however, attracted criticism from some quarters, since it offers awards of various kinds to selected biographees on payment of a fee, though by and large entries in the various publications are made without charge.
“ Participants in the American Biographical Institute's books write their own biographies and submit their own photos, according to the preface of the Great Minds of the 21st Century. ”
[1]
As their website states, it is: One of the world’s leading biographical reference publishers and authorities on global contemporary achievement. Founded in 1967, the Institute has exposed the biographies of outstanding men and women, the world over, in more than 150 separate reference volumes. During its nearly forty-year history, the ABI has recognized the deeds of outstanding men and women through the acknowledgement of professional documentation, and the tradition of biographical research and record. [3]
The position is clarified: Inclusion in an ABI reference title is based on personal achievement alone and is not available for purchase, [4]. Information about potential candidates for inclusion is drawn from various sources including recommendations by biographees already selected. The screening and selection of candidates is subject to rigorous evaluation by the Governing Board of the ABI under the direction of the President/Chairman, J M Evans.
The viability and appropriateness ofthe work of the Institute is vindicated by the large number of acceptances and support from distinguished individuals world-wide. By offering civil awards and certification of achievement across the gamut of cultural, scientific, educational and political fields, the ABI recognises - if imperfectly - the work of thousands of deserving professionals for whom there are too few governmental, national or international honors available. Thecynics andcritics must have a voice, though the principal charge of 'commercialism' does not stand up against the positive outcome of the Institute's commitment to human effort and accomplishment across the globe.[2] ABI reference books (incl. The World Book of Knowledge which retails for US$795) [3] ), are made available to libraries and universities worldwide. [4]
Strike-out phrases can be deleted. Italicised sentence (or sentiments) should appear later.
The following statement (from ABI) is a negation of the accusing tone of the current format:
Copies of all American Biographical Institute publications are correctly registered and sent to the Library of Congress, Washington D.C.; official U.S. state libraries; major international libraries and archives; specialized libraries and businesses the world over. Publications are distributed also to public, private, and international libraries that have placed individual or standing orders, as well as to professional agencies and organizations. Included biographies also have the option to place a personal reservation, but only if they so choose.
Refer [2]
Regarding citations in the article, many of these are by investigative journalists and cannot be seen as fair judgement. These include Australian press comment which is hardly conclusive: note the 'Peace Prize Scam' fiasco: [3] The inclusion, by way of reference, of cv's and illustrations of awards or certificates in no way advances the 'scam' argument. Dominique 10:16, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Dominique: In my opinion, your version is even more of a violation of the WP:NPOV policy than the version to which I originally offered a third opinion. I'll make some points:
The purpose of a third opinion is to serve as a tie-breaking vote between two disagreeing editors. When I came to this article, however, I didn't agree with either of you. The lead paragraph has improved over the version I saw initially, but Dominique's proposal to include glowing language about ABI with only passing mention (and dismissal) of criticism would skew the POV in the other direction. That is unacceptable. - Amatulic 20:33, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
A proper evaluation will of course need input from more users, though I respect the intelligence that you bring to bear on this interpretation. Certainly my version was written as a 'corrective' to the existing article, since I was rather shocked at the language! You will notice that I have not been active in insisting on its 'publication'. Basically, an encyclopedic article should - as you implied in your opening remarks - avoid opinions or what sounds like opinions, and concentrate on substance. In this case the priority at the beginning would be surely to say that ABI is a publishing co., specify what it does, its significance i.e. size, coverage, its connections. Its methods, business practice should come second. Suggestions of duping the public (which in this case represent the higher echelons of intelligent humanity) and running a scam should certainly come third or later, unless you feel the whole outfit is a scam.
If you felt that my input (revision effort and talk page) was more POV than the version at present representing the interests of 'truth and legitimacy', you should have made that clear from the beginning. Your challenge to the original author was quite strong, but you seem to be very quickly mollified by his cosmetic changes which did not remove the POV effect, even if the 'vanity press' description became acceptable to you. As for the citations, these seem to relate to prizes and awards rather than the business of publishing biographies, and are journalistic in tone.
The problem is that it is much easier to find vociferous critics of an International Publishing Co who get revenue from awards to their nominees than advocates of the work that they do. These advocates include institutions who buy the books, and the biographees themselves whatever their motives, and whether they buy copies or not. Many of the 'distinguished persons' represented have no reason to give opinions good or bad about the publisher, but they can't think it is a bad idea otherwise why would they bother getting involved. My reference was not an 'argumentum ad numerum', but rather an 'argumentum ab auctoritate'. Incidentally encyclopedias do not command a large buying public, so the publisher has to make ends meet somehow. Personally I don't see anything wrong with offering (reduced price) copies to persons represented in the pages. And I don't think it is particularly 'vain' for those persons to consider buying. The question of the awards is, as I've said, a separate matter.
Re Library of Congress etc you say "Mentioning this fact seems like a misleading way to inflate a presumption of significance and notability." But it is a fact, and not an assumption or a way of sustaining a dubious argument. Should it not be mentioned in order to avoid giving the impression of significance or notability? In any case, it is important to rectify the omission in the article by stating that the ABI sells to libraries and other institutions and not just to honorees. The other 'significant' fact is of course 'no payment for entry', and at this time I can only verify that from experience (ABI and IBC publications). (One can pay for an enhanced entry e.g. with a photo, which a few choose to do). Therein lies the difficulty of verifying the 'positive', no problem it seems with the 'negative'.
'Conflict of interest', not exactly (I do ask questions about the awards), but in a sense I back my own argument in saying that you would have to look to the honorees to say positive things about the ABI!
'Glowing language' - only insofar as I felt it necessary to quote from the ABI website or the current article quotes for information. I certainly didn't want to rely on journalism or 'anti-elitist' Australian politicians (many of whom are intent on rubbishing the British monarchy, for a start).
I note that you borrowed the phrase 'an advertisement for the ABI' from the other party to the dispute.
I doubt if the ABI or IBC would be particularly concerned about the description of their enterprise (business, if you prefer) as it is portrayed in these pages. They are unlikely to see it as authoritative. Do you know of any published encyclopedias which list biographical dictionaries? I wonder what they say about the ABI? Dominique 23:08, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Responses in order:
Conclusion: I can only feel confirmed in my opinion that the application of the term ‘vanity press’, which you see as ‘uncontroversial’, may have to be looked at more closely. The definition afforded through the link is:
1. A vanity press or vanity publisher is a book printer which, while claiming to be a publisher, charges writers a fee in return for publishing their books or otherwise makes most of its money from the author rather than from the public….2.In its very simplest terms, while a commercial publisher's intended market is the general public, a vanity publisher's intended market are the authors themselves….3. Commercial publishers, on the other hand, derive their profit from sales of the book, and must therefore be cautious and deliberate in choosing to publish works that will sell…
Comment:
1. Putting aside the awards question for the moment, the publication of the books does not strictly conform to the Vanity label, since the ‘authors’ (biographees) don’t actually pay for the publication unless they buy the book, the books being otherwise sold to libraries etc.
2. The general public cannot be relied on to buy biographical encyclopedias, so a commercial publisher’s natural retail outlet is denied to specialist producers like ABI, IBC
3. The second part (saleability) does not apply for the same reason
The following definition may be closer:
A vanity publisher is:
"any company which charges a client to publish a book; or offers to include short stories, poems or other literary or artistic material in an anthology and then invites those included in it to buy a copy of that anthology."
(British Advertising Standards Authority Advice Note, Vanity Publishing, July 1997)
But again, this is not a parallel, and I am still persuaded that such publishers as ABI have little choice in the way they market their books. The awards, on the other hand, may be a more legitimate target for the critics, and should accordingly receive – as you seem to agree – separate treatment. Dominique 22:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
In offering the following suggested solution, I am conscious of the fact that recent debate on the article has been limited to three editors, my own input being uncomfortably predominant. I hope that the following format will attract further impartial interest (and relevant debate) if not outright approval: it is not intended as a final draft. The main points arising from the recent discussion are:
Re-structured article
The American Biographical Institute is a United States organisation based in North Carolina, which - like its sister company in Cambridge, England (the 'International Biographical Centre')- publishes biographical information about people, their careers and their achievements. The organisation’s website [4] provides the following description:
One of the world’s leading biographical reference publishers and authorities on global contemporary achievement. Founded in 1967, the Institute has exposed the biographies of outstanding men and women, the world over, in more than 150 separate reference volumes. During its nearly forty-year history, the ABI has recognized the deeds of outstanding men and women through the acknowledgement of professional documentation, and the tradition of biographical research and record.
The Institute’s work is based on stated principles:
Funding
ABI receives no revenue from governmental or educational bodies (cf O.U.P.; Australian Dictionary of Biography, Biographical Dictionary of the US. Congress etc), and has limited circulation among the general public.
Vanity Press
Critics have employed the term ‘vanity press’ to describe the business practice of the ABI. Such accusations emanate largely from the ‘popular’ press or personal comments by public figures who base their attacks on the costs levied on honorees who choose to purchase books or to accept awards. The underlying principle, however, of ‘free inclusion’ of selected biographees means that those represented do not pay for publication of their cv’s: a basic tenet of ‘vanity publishing’ is therefore not fulfilled. (See also Marquis Who’s Who)
Awards
With respect to awards, on the other hand, there are recipients who have listed ABI honors and memberships in their cv’s, or who have taken up offers to have their biographies enhanced (e.g. by photos) or highlighted. Such offers require payment to cover costs, which critics see as being appeals to ‘vanity’.* It is again up to individual honorees selected by the Governing Board to decide for themselves the usefulness (or appropriateness) of such ‘symbols’ of achievement, a number of which are reserved for ‘special’ (elite) recipients. The reliability of the selection process relates to the criteria for selection by the Board, who themselves are dependent on internationally established research bodies (ref ABI/research). It is inevitably an imperfect system, but there is evidence (eg Internet) that many distinguished entrants avail themselves of the award choices available, just as there are occasional examples of ‘trophy-hunters’.
*a parallel in the academic world would be a the purchase of robes and hoods to proclaim one’s degree status
Critics have focused on:(i) the multiplicity of the awards available (ii) the marketing of awards (iii) value or prestige to recipients
Sources
Apart from negative articles by journalists in the popular press, and occasional comments by minor public figures who may have been contacted by ABI for possible inclusion, there is a virtual vacuum of information impartial or otherwise about the business practices of the ABI and similar organizations. Critical reviews of publications may provide an insight, or relevant information may be obtained from the analysis of statistical data which, however, would have to be obtained from the company itself.
List of Awards etc
See current article
Published titles include:
Refer ABI website
Dominique
13:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your response. I'm afraid that in spite of all the work and thought over two weeks, our relative positions remain much the same. The points you make, I believe have been dealt with in some detail already. The two main concerns - conflation and the press - underly your argument: (i) the awards 'scam' (if it is proven) cannot be used to denigrate the publishing activity (the prime activity of the company) (ii) colourful press articles and an absence of serious critiques cannot be seen as a licence to present a profile based on the former. Comparable situation: Have a look at the WP article & talk on 'Jonathan King', a well-known British music entrepreneur arrested on child sex charges. Much debate over the use of 'disgraced' in the opening para - generally felt that media language (newspapers or BBC) relating to a particular circumstance is not appropriate when introducing the subject and his achievements. Some statistical info from ABI could be useful e.g. how many entrants purchase books or awards (if offered)? How much revenue is acquired from the sale of books to libraries and institutions?
I'm sorry not to be able to continue with this project at this time, and hope you can find a resolution of remaining conflicts. I am sure you will want the article to progress beyond its present form, and that you would wish more input - contentious or supportive - from a wider range of editors. Good luck! Dominique 22:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I have researched the “prestigious” awards from the American Biographical Institute (ABI) and from the International Biographical Centre (IBC)…of course not “center”; that would be rather ordinary.
After quite some research there is obviously no doubt in my mind that these organizations are vanity scams based on vanity publications which contain self-published biographies and basically anything you want the award to say for a buck…or in this case more like 200-700 bucks per award, or publication which contains the award. But of course, you don’t just buy your own award of choice, but you have to buy the publication which has your award as well, which itself costs hundreds of dollars, because it is a big book that contains thousands of phony awards…and you can buy some for your friends too, and recommend them as well, or anyone for that matter at their websites.
I don’t know if the situation about these scams is more silly than clever…I mean it is pretty silly for anyone with a few brain cells to give importance to being nominated for such highly claimed international award for having done nothing worth mentioning in their lives, and also for that nothing to have been researched by no one. There is tons of cases when these institutions address a guy with Mrs. and vice versa, even print the award as such…they don’t even bother to research or verify their names and gender, let alone to research their work some state far away, nor some countries oceans away.
On the other hand it is pretty clever scam…you come up with an organization that operates within the loopholes of the law. You are not breaking any promise; people give you money and you give them awards…the money of course to cover the expenses (such a hundreds of dollars for a book or wooden award?!). And you set up your organization for success because you are selling people self-esteem and international recognition. There is that little fact that all of this is false and unsubstantiated by any research (at least for most awards given to most people). But hey, what matters to you is the money, since you are a commercial company, not a scholarly entity. You know that there are lots of people out there who are either stupid or vain, or both, that would buy ABI or IBC rewards and publications of those rewards. So not only do you keep up the business, but you also come to various websites to confront the people who are not stupid enough to buy into your ABI and IBC scam, and have enough integrity and decency to speak up about these scams and caution the others.
Makes me puke…Ralph! - John Q Public 66.197.176.115 12:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following text:
The American Biographical Institute and the International Biographical Centre hold an annual convention each year known as the International Congress on Science, Culture and Arts in the 21st Century. The Congress provides a forum for the artists, scientists, professionals and educators who are biographees to show their works. Selected biographees also conduct seminars at the Congress.[ ABICongress.htm
Simply because the website only refers to the 2005 conference, doesn't mention the IBC and doesn't provide the details as claimed in the para. Further the reference is from ABI itself. Are there any third party references to this "International Congress"? If so, this would make a much better reference. Gillyweed 11:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Addition: People want controversy whereever they can possibly find it, saddeningly enough, people throw stones to decide the better man, woman or intellectual without knowing who or what we are talking about causing scandle and anything derogatory for the sole purpose of this. Has anyone been to the conference? Than how can they slam except from personal experience? Allot of oddballs here who simply conjecture from their moralistic sense and viewpoint which is infact contrary to their own perfectible sense! This discussion is libelous for many, and slanderous for many. Delete! CommonSense Oct.11 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.233.244 ( talk) 17:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)