![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 30 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The ICC chief prosecutor didn't anywhere mention 'genocide'. He merely acknowledges that the ICC is prepared to investigate war crimes (of both sides?). That the Oct 7th attack was murderous is certain, but the relevance of the ICC visit isn't clear. Obviously an investigator is not going to offer an opinion either way at this stage, prior to independent ICC investigation, so why is he there? I can't read the full Haaretz piece (£££.$$$.€€€). Pincrete ( talk) 10:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Most of this article is WP:SYNTH as most sources in the article do not explicitly state that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was genocide (in fact some of the sources used in this article are from before 2023). Now some sources do make this allegation specifically, but not sure why this can't be covered at Second Holocaust? VR talk 06:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk)
21:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
As these widespread, horrendous acts appear to have been carried out with an 'intent to destroy, in whole or in part' a national group – Israelis – a goal explicitly declared by Hamas, without giving much of specifically who, when, in what documents or statements the intent to destroy was established and maintained over many decades. A policy set nearly half a century ago - just before the Cold War ended - doesn't sound like strong evidence of Hamas' intent in 2023.) I suspect that the article will be justified as standalone after the general quality is improved. Boud ( talk) 18:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
References
Scientelensia ( talk) 12:39, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
"More needs to be added for the opposite side, as it is quite rare for one series of attacks to be termed a genocide throughout history."The article definitely urgently needs that. If you can find some reliable sources please share them here.
"not yet suitable for consumption"but I argued to not just delete it because otherwise similar terrible articles keep reappearing, whereas keeping it means we can turn it into something that gives the idea it's proper context.
Are there any reliable sources from notable experts on genocide stating that the attack was not genocide? If nobody is trying to remove such sources with his/her editing behaviour, then there is no NPOV dispute. Please use {{ diff}} to show unconstructive edits if you believe that there are edits attempting to remove sources like this. Boud ( talk) 16:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The editor who adds the tag should address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, ... Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag.@ Selfstudier: There's no problem for this article with Hamas not being a state. A case against Palestine in the ICJ could hypothetically be lodged by another state (such as the US or Israel or, say, Mongolia), and evidence for cases against Palestinian individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide for their participation in the 7 October attack is being collected by the ICC in its investigation. We don't currently have an ICJ case. We won't know specific ICC charges, or against who, until some time in the future. This article covers claims ("allegations") of genocide "in" the 7 October attack - the strength of these claims is disputable, but currently there is consensus that the topic is valid as a standalone article, with the scope defined by the title.I currently don't see anyone presenting reasons to retain the {{ POV}} tag (unless there has been a specific edit battle that needs resolving?). One more quote:
Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article.Boud ( talk) 18:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
It's not a concept serious scholars bother rebutting in detail ... the idea that the first attack was a genocide is crazy. But we don't (yet?) have the sources that establish the ((edit) possible) mainstream POV, so it would be difficult to justify the {{ fringe}} tag. Boud ( talk) 23:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC) (minor fix to clarify that I don't see evidence of what conceivably might be the mainstream, but sourceless, POV) Boud ( talk) 12:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I
started a
section at the NPOV noticeboard (
here until archived
here) to try to get help in separating out the specific issues in this article versus the relevance of the POV tag.
Boud (
talk) 12:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC) (add archive: no reaction at NPOV noticeboard
Boud (
talk)
09:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC))
Scientelensia ( talk) 12:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I've added several templates to the article. Here are my justifications [1] [2] [3]. This article has serious problems. It apports few useful informational value, and basically only serves to create a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation with articles like Palestinian genocide accusation. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 16:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against a page move at this time. ( closed by non-admin page mover) SkyWarrior 00:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel → Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war – For a broader article scope (possibly still include the year if this is an issue, i.e. Allegations of genocide during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war). GnocchiFan ( talk) 21:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Live Steam of South Africa at the ICJ from South African TV news network SABC News on YouTube https://m.youtube.com/live/4f_yoal4gx8 "Live Steam of South Africa at the ICJ on the YouTube channel of National TV network" Irtapil ( talk) 10:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Putting here to include in article if it stays up as a recoding, but also likely to interest many people here as background. Irtapil ( talk) 10:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
The response from Israel at the ICJ and commentary on it might be useful to cite? Irtapil ( talk) 21:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
There's an immense lack of sourcing in the article to support the title's claim of a Hamas-led genocide against Israelis.
This type of article is common on Wikipedia where it seems to pre-emptively construct a narrative that is at odds with what is happening on the ground and what is reported on by media.
The Hamas terror attack on a single day doesn't constitute a genocide. To date, Israel has killed more than 1% of people in Gaza in 5 months (2 thirds are women and children). That's an equivalent of 3 million Americans dead in 5 months.
On the other hand, we have Israeli politicians calling for Gaza to be depopulated, turned into Auschwitz Museum, etc. Not to mention their actual actions of withholding aid, killing indiscriminately, ethnic cleansing. None of that fits with what Hamas did on Oct 7th; especially when Israel is on trial at the ICJ for genocide.
Also, the use of genocide in the title is used to mislead readers into reading the dubious claims made in this article. I consider it biased and Zionist propaganda.
I propose the contents of this article be merged into an appropriate and existing article or deleted. Maqdisi ( talk) 08:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
claim ... a Hamas-led genocide against Israelis; it claims that notable sources make the claim that the 7 Oct 2023 attack was a genocide or genocidal. Wikipedia doesn't (currently, at least) argue that the claims are either valid or invalid. Boud ( talk) 15:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
This article has serious issues and is clearly a POV push. The lead sentence is already pulling a sleight of hand. A " genocidal massacre" is not a " genocide." If you're alleging a "genocidal massacre", then you need to have a title which comports with that allegation. But the title says "genocide." We need to be careful with words here.
In terms of reliable sources presented in this article which explicitly and unambigiously describe 7 October as a genocide, we only have the open letter, the statement by Genocide Watch, and a smattering of quotes from random researchers, including a lecturer at a university in an illegal Israeli settlement and a director of some Israeli NGO no one's ever heard of. In the open letter, which is prima facie the most compelling since it has researchers from prestigious universities, it qualified its claim with the term "probably" and furthermore did not elaborate or provide reasons for why it deems the massacre a probable genocide.
All in all, this is a very weak evidentiary basis, and it gives the impression that this article exists to counteract the far more notable Palestinian genocide accusation which in fact has a formal ICJ case to its name. JDiala ( talk) 02:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
This revert by an editor following an undiscussed page move (which I have already undone) claims that the "parent article has had its title altered so then this one should to. However the other article title is currently subject to move review and likely relisting at this point, so a) This is jumping the gun and b) Even if the other article title does end up being changed, that is not of itself sufficient reason for the edits made. Selfstudier ( talk) 20:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Currently the section I'm talking about says, "Attack type: Mass shooting, immolation, genocidal rape (alleged)" should it say "Attack type: Mass shooting, immolation (alleged), genocidal rape (alleged)"?
Is there strong evidence that people were intentionally burned to death by Palestinians?
One of the burned houses (at Be'eri) was attributed to Israeli security forces, it wasn't the only one, but for genocide you also need the deaths to be intentional, not just reckless.
There's other explanations for militants burning housing, that are still war crimes, but not genocide. From what I have seen, those explanations have stronger evidence, or at least strong enough that you can't state intentional immolation of people as fact.
Other reasons:
1. "smoke people out" to take them hostage
2. Destroy housing to pressure people to relocate, that's ethnic cleansing, which is close, but not genocide.
3. Intimidation to send a political message (i.e. Terrorism)
In all of those, it's property destruction with accidental or sporadic deaths. The evidence that the intent was to burn the people doesn't seem wrong enough to state "immolation" as fact in the infobox.
MWQs ( talk) 07:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to follow the parent article. This will have no effect at the moment due to the MR result, but if the RM is closed as moved, anyone is welcome to move this article to a matching title, citing this closure. (I realize this is an unusual outcome, but there's no point in further relists when everyone agrees that consistency should be determinative.) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 06:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel →
Allegations of genocide in the 7 October attacks – To match the current
7 October attacks page name.
MWQs (
talk)
08:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Note that this RM was opened by the sock of a banned editor. Selfstudier ( talk) 21:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2023. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 30 December 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
The ICC chief prosecutor didn't anywhere mention 'genocide'. He merely acknowledges that the ICC is prepared to investigate war crimes (of both sides?). That the Oct 7th attack was murderous is certain, but the relevance of the ICC visit isn't clear. Obviously an investigator is not going to offer an opinion either way at this stage, prior to independent ICC investigation, so why is he there? I can't read the full Haaretz piece (£££.$$$.€€€). Pincrete ( talk) 10:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
Most of this article is WP:SYNTH as most sources in the article do not explicitly state that the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel was genocide (in fact some of the sources used in this article are from before 2023). Now some sources do make this allegation specifically, but not sure why this can't be covered at Second Holocaust? VR talk 06:02, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Daveout
(talk)
21:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
As these widespread, horrendous acts appear to have been carried out with an 'intent to destroy, in whole or in part' a national group – Israelis – a goal explicitly declared by Hamas, without giving much of specifically who, when, in what documents or statements the intent to destroy was established and maintained over many decades. A policy set nearly half a century ago - just before the Cold War ended - doesn't sound like strong evidence of Hamas' intent in 2023.) I suspect that the article will be justified as standalone after the general quality is improved. Boud ( talk) 18:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
References
Scientelensia ( talk) 12:39, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
"More needs to be added for the opposite side, as it is quite rare for one series of attacks to be termed a genocide throughout history."The article definitely urgently needs that. If you can find some reliable sources please share them here.
"not yet suitable for consumption"but I argued to not just delete it because otherwise similar terrible articles keep reappearing, whereas keeping it means we can turn it into something that gives the idea it's proper context.
Are there any reliable sources from notable experts on genocide stating that the attack was not genocide? If nobody is trying to remove such sources with his/her editing behaviour, then there is no NPOV dispute. Please use {{ diff}} to show unconstructive edits if you believe that there are edits attempting to remove sources like this. Boud ( talk) 16:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The editor who adds the tag should address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, ... Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag.@ Selfstudier: There's no problem for this article with Hamas not being a state. A case against Palestine in the ICJ could hypothetically be lodged by another state (such as the US or Israel or, say, Mongolia), and evidence for cases against Palestinian individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide for their participation in the 7 October attack is being collected by the ICC in its investigation. We don't currently have an ICJ case. We won't know specific ICC charges, or against who, until some time in the future. This article covers claims ("allegations") of genocide "in" the 7 October attack - the strength of these claims is disputable, but currently there is consensus that the topic is valid as a standalone article, with the scope defined by the title.I currently don't see anyone presenting reasons to retain the {{ POV}} tag (unless there has been a specific edit battle that needs resolving?). One more quote:
Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article.Boud ( talk) 18:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
It's not a concept serious scholars bother rebutting in detail ... the idea that the first attack was a genocide is crazy. But we don't (yet?) have the sources that establish the ((edit) possible) mainstream POV, so it would be difficult to justify the {{ fringe}} tag. Boud ( talk) 23:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC) (minor fix to clarify that I don't see evidence of what conceivably might be the mainstream, but sourceless, POV) Boud ( talk) 12:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I
started a
section at the NPOV noticeboard (
here until archived
here) to try to get help in separating out the specific issues in this article versus the relevance of the POV tag.
Boud (
talk) 12:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC) (add archive: no reaction at NPOV noticeboard
Boud (
talk)
09:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC))
Scientelensia ( talk) 12:55, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
I've added several templates to the article. Here are my justifications [1] [2] [3]. This article has serious problems. It apports few useful informational value, and basically only serves to create a WP:FALSEBALANCE situation with articles like Palestinian genocide accusation. Super Dromaeosaurus ( talk) 16:35, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus is against a page move at this time. ( closed by non-admin page mover) SkyWarrior 00:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas attack on Israel → Allegations of genocide during the Israel–Hamas war – For a broader article scope (possibly still include the year if this is an issue, i.e. Allegations of genocide during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war). GnocchiFan ( talk) 21:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
Live Steam of South Africa at the ICJ from South African TV news network SABC News on YouTube https://m.youtube.com/live/4f_yoal4gx8 "Live Steam of South Africa at the ICJ on the YouTube channel of National TV network" Irtapil ( talk) 10:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
Putting here to include in article if it stays up as a recoding, but also likely to interest many people here as background. Irtapil ( talk) 10:22, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
The response from Israel at the ICJ and commentary on it might be useful to cite? Irtapil ( talk) 21:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
There's an immense lack of sourcing in the article to support the title's claim of a Hamas-led genocide against Israelis.
This type of article is common on Wikipedia where it seems to pre-emptively construct a narrative that is at odds with what is happening on the ground and what is reported on by media.
The Hamas terror attack on a single day doesn't constitute a genocide. To date, Israel has killed more than 1% of people in Gaza in 5 months (2 thirds are women and children). That's an equivalent of 3 million Americans dead in 5 months.
On the other hand, we have Israeli politicians calling for Gaza to be depopulated, turned into Auschwitz Museum, etc. Not to mention their actual actions of withholding aid, killing indiscriminately, ethnic cleansing. None of that fits with what Hamas did on Oct 7th; especially when Israel is on trial at the ICJ for genocide.
Also, the use of genocide in the title is used to mislead readers into reading the dubious claims made in this article. I consider it biased and Zionist propaganda.
I propose the contents of this article be merged into an appropriate and existing article or deleted. Maqdisi ( talk) 08:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
claim ... a Hamas-led genocide against Israelis; it claims that notable sources make the claim that the 7 Oct 2023 attack was a genocide or genocidal. Wikipedia doesn't (currently, at least) argue that the claims are either valid or invalid. Boud ( talk) 15:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
This article has serious issues and is clearly a POV push. The lead sentence is already pulling a sleight of hand. A " genocidal massacre" is not a " genocide." If you're alleging a "genocidal massacre", then you need to have a title which comports with that allegation. But the title says "genocide." We need to be careful with words here.
In terms of reliable sources presented in this article which explicitly and unambigiously describe 7 October as a genocide, we only have the open letter, the statement by Genocide Watch, and a smattering of quotes from random researchers, including a lecturer at a university in an illegal Israeli settlement and a director of some Israeli NGO no one's ever heard of. In the open letter, which is prima facie the most compelling since it has researchers from prestigious universities, it qualified its claim with the term "probably" and furthermore did not elaborate or provide reasons for why it deems the massacre a probable genocide.
All in all, this is a very weak evidentiary basis, and it gives the impression that this article exists to counteract the far more notable Palestinian genocide accusation which in fact has a formal ICJ case to its name. JDiala ( talk) 02:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
This revert by an editor following an undiscussed page move (which I have already undone) claims that the "parent article has had its title altered so then this one should to. However the other article title is currently subject to move review and likely relisting at this point, so a) This is jumping the gun and b) Even if the other article title does end up being changed, that is not of itself sufficient reason for the edits made. Selfstudier ( talk) 20:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Currently the section I'm talking about says, "Attack type: Mass shooting, immolation, genocidal rape (alleged)" should it say "Attack type: Mass shooting, immolation (alleged), genocidal rape (alleged)"?
Is there strong evidence that people were intentionally burned to death by Palestinians?
One of the burned houses (at Be'eri) was attributed to Israeli security forces, it wasn't the only one, but for genocide you also need the deaths to be intentional, not just reckless.
There's other explanations for militants burning housing, that are still war crimes, but not genocide. From what I have seen, those explanations have stronger evidence, or at least strong enough that you can't state intentional immolation of people as fact.
Other reasons:
1. "smoke people out" to take them hostage
2. Destroy housing to pressure people to relocate, that's ethnic cleansing, which is close, but not genocide.
3. Intimidation to send a political message (i.e. Terrorism)
In all of those, it's property destruction with accidental or sporadic deaths. The evidence that the intent was to burn the people doesn't seem wrong enough to state "immolation" as fact in the infobox.
MWQs ( talk) 07:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to follow the parent article. This will have no effect at the moment due to the MR result, but if the RM is closed as moved, anyone is welcome to move this article to a matching title, citing this closure. (I realize this is an unusual outcome, but there's no point in further relists when everyone agrees that consistency should be determinative.) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 06:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel →
Allegations of genocide in the 7 October attacks – To match the current
7 October attacks page name.
MWQs (
talk)
08:34, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Note that this RM was opened by the sock of a banned editor. Selfstudier ( talk) 21:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)