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"and declares itself opposed to "doctrines promoting liberalism, tolerance, and relativism." "tolerance"-"tolerancja". There is no word about "tolerancja" in All-polish Youth rulez. There is word about "tolerancjonism". Difference is not coincidence Zofey 05:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Tolerancjonism"? What's that supposed to be?
"Tolerancionism" is a part of nationalist newspeak. Tolerance for them is "We are tolerant to every ethnic, religious or otherwise minority, we just believe that homosexualism (liberalism, globalism etc) is a sin and thus should be destroyed by any means necessary." In this new lingo the meaning of "tolerancionism" is what the meaning of "tolerance" is for the rest of us: "tolerate everyone and his behaviour as long as he doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't break any laws." rrw
The name "All-Polish Youth" is wrong. The term "wszechpolski" as understood in the twenties, when the movement was formed meant all the former lands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As such, the proper English name should rather be "Greater Poland Youth" or "Greater-Polish Youth". rrw.
I thing "All-Polish Youth" is horrible translation. Most of young Polish are normal people - now it seems the all polish youth is nacionalistic, homophobic etc. - it's like lie. (sorry for my English)
I am Polish and I htink is not (officially) nationalistic officially is "patriotic" thought only officially...........
Please explain what are the POV problems of this article. -- Lysy talk 17:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Crusader", will not remove valid academic sources from this article. Article should be better referenced but it would never become so, if sources will be removed. Users are welcomed to improve the article by adding more sources, even when they are not in line with their point of view. - Darwinek ( talk) 21:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Darwinek", will not make his communistic propaganda around Polish patriotic organizations articles on Wikipedia. Darwinek is a Socialist who want to show Polish patriotic organizations as a nazi garbage. Don't make anymore your left-wing propaganda and everything will be ok, go pray to che fujara.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 01:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added some categories for the article, but I have noticed there has been an edit war going on regarding the inclusion of the homophobia category. According to their official website, there are various articles including one that is headlined "All-Polish Youth march against homosexuals". The website itself makes it quite clear that the organization is intolerant of homosexuality and gay people, as much as it is pro-Christian beliefs. According to Wikipedia guidelines, this meets the threshold for inclusion in this category. Please do not delete any of these categories without first discussing the matter on this page and gaining consensus. MassassiUK 16:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Hi Andrew. The All-Polish Youth website itself describes its activities and attitude towards homosexuality quite clearly, which makes it a valid source. I do accept that APY aren't just an anti-gay organisation and that they do other things as well, but they are certainly notable for their anti-gay stance. Their website includes articles about how they have gone on public demonstrations against homosexuality. In the UK, the British National Front went on marches against non-whites, and even though they have a right to their own beliefs, it is still classed as "racism" (the BNF are listed in Category:Racism on Wikipedia). It's the same as with APY. Even though they have a right to oppose homosexuality, be it part of their political or religious beliefs, it is still classed as "homophobia". When I added the categories to the article earlier, I made sure that the article was added to various "Christian" categories as well, which helps to inform people about APY and lets them know that they aren't just an anti-gay organization. Unfortunately, their anti-gay activities and beliefs are highly public and it is something they are particularly noted for. As for the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia, it wouldn't count because this is the English Wiki and has different editors who may not share the same view as the people on the Polish version. MassassiUK 18:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry Andrew but this is all just your opinion. You personally may have a different view about All-Polish Youth, but you cannot speak for your entire country. The consensus you claim is on the Polish Wikipedia does not count here because in order to gain consensus, you have to have a debate. Considering that only polish-speaking people would be able to debate on the Polish Wiki, you are trying to force editors on the English Wiki to blindly accept their opinion. There is already an accepted definition of what homophobia is on the English Wiki, and the category is used for articles that notably fit that definition. Based on the beliefs and public activities of APY (which they themselves admit to), they clearly fall into the category. They also fit into the categories "Christian Youth Groups" and "Nationalist Organizations", amongst others, and this helps to provide a balanced view of the APY. Unfortunately, we cannot delete details just because you don't find them flattering, and Wikipedia has to include all the relevant details about a subject. Perhaps it is the definition of the word itself that you are having a problem with? If so, you should read the article on Homophobia as well as Category talk:Homophobia, both of which might help. MassassiUK 23:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Umm, this whole debate is a bit of too much expression of opinion - how about finding some reliable (third party) sources which describe them as such and then the category can be put in. They are actually homophobic, you know, so it shouldn't be that hard to find the sources. The problem you're going to run into, and which Andrew actually sort of alludes to, is that there is plenty other things wrong with them so their homophobia might be low on the list and hence not readily available in online sources. But let's get a cite or two and then the cat can go in. radek ( talk) 00:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
So, the lead says it has been affiliated with the League of Polish Families since 2001, but the article then states that the League of Polish Families broke ties with the group in 2006. Which is it? Also, why does the lead twice state the group's apparently former affiliation with LPR? Ostap 20:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
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Hello, In the sidebar anti-capitalism is listed an an ideology of the organisation. This seems incorrect, can someone with permissions find & cite a source or remove? 37.248.154.138 ( talk) 15:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)SirFranx
Every so often, someone tries to remove the academic reliable source stating that the organisation is based on fascist doctrines. The exact quotes is: "this movement, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga". To me that is quite clear and non-controversial, especially there are no reliable sources to state that this is not true. Abcmaxx ( talk) 14:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
"This group, modeled after the interwar fascist movement Falanga (...)" - Falanga is all right considered as somehow fascist like movement (although not to confuse with Italian fascism). However "This group" is related to the RN, which includes more ideologically radical organizations, like ONR. So it does not even refer to the All Polish Youth directly, and user Abcmaxx, either intentionally (or unintentionally - if didn't even checked the source), is incorrectly using the source. More than that, source (in the table on the same page!) is counting All Polish Youth as: "religious fundamentalists". BTW how this source is reliable may be seen in that: Kukiz15 as the "Party", while it never was political party. Further, Radio Maryja is called "Movement", while it is radio broadcaster... and so on... so author apparently have limited knowledge and is using too many shortcuts. However main problem here is that some users are forcing false, not even supported by source. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I am removing this nonsense again, sources provided by user are stating something completly different!!! Sosnowska, N., 2014. "Funkcje słowa faszyści oraz jego synonimów we współczesnym dyskursie polityczno-medialnym i poza nim." "Istotne jest to, że wyżej wymienione leksemy odnoszą się w większości wy-padków do ugrupowań z prawej strony sceny politycznej (biorąc rzecz umow-nie), a więc nie tylko do ruchów z założenia neofaszystowskich, niekryjących swoich powiązań z faszyzmem (nota bene: są one zakazane na mocy Konstytucji z 02.04.1997 r.1), ale również do prawicowych partii i stowarzyszeń pozaparla-mentarnych, jak np. ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska czy powstały niedawno (po Marszu Niepodległości 11.11.2012 r.) Ruch Narodo-wy, a także parlamentarnych, jak np. PiS." So this source is actually stating that term fascist is inappropriately used for a lot of right wing parties, including: ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska, Ruch Narodo-wy, or PiS (current government). User Abcmaxx should be immediately blocked, and his editor rights removed, as false editions make significant damage to the Wikipedia project. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Page 365 "Inwektywa faszyści jest stosowana wobec tych ugrupowań z tego względu, że naród stawiają na pierwszym miejscu, co zwolennikom lewicy i liberałów, którzy takie etykietki stosują, wydaje się podejrzane". (My translation: "Invective fascists is applied to these groups, because they consider nation most valuable, for supporters of the left and liberals, who use such labels, this seem suspicious"). Well "Invective", "labels"... Author on all page 365 and other pages is explaining in different ways that "fascism" become form of lexeme, used by some people in the way which doesn't correspond to the original meaning. I honestly can't be sure if user Abcmaxx has misinterpreted the source intentionally or not, but it is still very bad practice, and harming Wikipedia awfully. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)
First of all, gentlemen @ Abcmaxx: and @ Kojoto:, please stop edit warring in the article. I should've probably already blocked you both for WP:3RR violation. As for your dispute, "ultranationalist" and "based on fascist doctrines" are strong labels that need better sourcing. Everyone nowadays likes to throw the "fascist" epithet around. In words of fascism scholar Robert O. Paxton - "Everyone is someone's fascist." We need more and better, non-partisan sources. Also, the lede should be neutral as much as possible. The two All-Polish Youths (interwar and contemporary) are not identical twins, and the article should make a clear distinction between them, not to confuse the reader.-- Darwinek ( talk) 00:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I do 100% agree with Darwinek voice. To be honest article reminds some comment about All Polish Youth, not the neutral information. In example information about TV accusing "members" of the organisation for taking part in neo-nazi event, followed by the note that it was whole fake news and linked to the actual dementi by same TV. This and some other parts needs fixes. BTW avoiding strong terms (particularly not supported by source) comes along with the output of the source (Sosnowska 2014) provided by Abcmaxx. Best regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 02:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Voice above is the proof that people with so strong ideological motivation should be not able to edit Wikipedia. As no matter what true is, they will see "fascist" whenever they want. And user Abcmaxx for instance, is not even hiding his motivation. Too bad... Kojoto ( talk) 12:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:NPA: Stop it right now. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Instead of wrangling over the stickers and labels, you better get the facts in the article straight, especially the unreferenced ones. I fixed one of them now, but the rest is all yours. I have no particular interest, nor expertise in the subject. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Fair point. Altough I always thought that strict following the sources is not in question. And using source not supporting the facts in the article is considered as violation of the rules. You entirely right it should be done with a good manner. Best regards. Kojoto ( talk) 14:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
As per my very 1st comment, the exact quote is: "this group, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga". Abcmaxx ( talk) 01:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
This is the
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"and declares itself opposed to "doctrines promoting liberalism, tolerance, and relativism." "tolerance"-"tolerancja". There is no word about "tolerancja" in All-polish Youth rulez. There is word about "tolerancjonism". Difference is not coincidence Zofey 05:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Tolerancjonism"? What's that supposed to be?
"Tolerancionism" is a part of nationalist newspeak. Tolerance for them is "We are tolerant to every ethnic, religious or otherwise minority, we just believe that homosexualism (liberalism, globalism etc) is a sin and thus should be destroyed by any means necessary." In this new lingo the meaning of "tolerancionism" is what the meaning of "tolerance" is for the rest of us: "tolerate everyone and his behaviour as long as he doesn't hurt anyone and doesn't break any laws." rrw
The name "All-Polish Youth" is wrong. The term "wszechpolski" as understood in the twenties, when the movement was formed meant all the former lands of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. As such, the proper English name should rather be "Greater Poland Youth" or "Greater-Polish Youth". rrw.
I thing "All-Polish Youth" is horrible translation. Most of young Polish are normal people - now it seems the all polish youth is nacionalistic, homophobic etc. - it's like lie. (sorry for my English)
I am Polish and I htink is not (officially) nationalistic officially is "patriotic" thought only officially...........
Please explain what are the POV problems of this article. -- Lysy talk 17:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Crusader", will not remove valid academic sources from this article. Article should be better referenced but it would never become so, if sources will be removed. Users are welcomed to improve the article by adding more sources, even when they are not in line with their point of view. - Darwinek ( talk) 21:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be very good for the community if, ehmm, user "Darwinek", will not make his communistic propaganda around Polish patriotic organizations articles on Wikipedia. Darwinek is a Socialist who want to show Polish patriotic organizations as a nazi garbage. Don't make anymore your left-wing propaganda and everything will be ok, go pray to che fujara.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 01:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I've added some categories for the article, but I have noticed there has been an edit war going on regarding the inclusion of the homophobia category. According to their official website, there are various articles including one that is headlined "All-Polish Youth march against homosexuals". The website itself makes it quite clear that the organization is intolerant of homosexuality and gay people, as much as it is pro-Christian beliefs. According to Wikipedia guidelines, this meets the threshold for inclusion in this category. Please do not delete any of these categories without first discussing the matter on this page and gaining consensus. MassassiUK 16:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Hi Andrew. The All-Polish Youth website itself describes its activities and attitude towards homosexuality quite clearly, which makes it a valid source. I do accept that APY aren't just an anti-gay organisation and that they do other things as well, but they are certainly notable for their anti-gay stance. Their website includes articles about how they have gone on public demonstrations against homosexuality. In the UK, the British National Front went on marches against non-whites, and even though they have a right to their own beliefs, it is still classed as "racism" (the BNF are listed in Category:Racism on Wikipedia). It's the same as with APY. Even though they have a right to oppose homosexuality, be it part of their political or religious beliefs, it is still classed as "homophobia". When I added the categories to the article earlier, I made sure that the article was added to various "Christian" categories as well, which helps to inform people about APY and lets them know that they aren't just an anti-gay organization. Unfortunately, their anti-gay activities and beliefs are highly public and it is something they are particularly noted for. As for the discussion on the Polish Wikipedia, it wouldn't count because this is the English Wiki and has different editors who may not share the same view as the people on the Polish version. MassassiUK 18:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry Andrew but this is all just your opinion. You personally may have a different view about All-Polish Youth, but you cannot speak for your entire country. The consensus you claim is on the Polish Wikipedia does not count here because in order to gain consensus, you have to have a debate. Considering that only polish-speaking people would be able to debate on the Polish Wiki, you are trying to force editors on the English Wiki to blindly accept their opinion. There is already an accepted definition of what homophobia is on the English Wiki, and the category is used for articles that notably fit that definition. Based on the beliefs and public activities of APY (which they themselves admit to), they clearly fall into the category. They also fit into the categories "Christian Youth Groups" and "Nationalist Organizations", amongst others, and this helps to provide a balanced view of the APY. Unfortunately, we cannot delete details just because you don't find them flattering, and Wikipedia has to include all the relevant details about a subject. Perhaps it is the definition of the word itself that you are having a problem with? If so, you should read the article on Homophobia as well as Category talk:Homophobia, both of which might help. MassassiUK 23:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Umm, this whole debate is a bit of too much expression of opinion - how about finding some reliable (third party) sources which describe them as such and then the category can be put in. They are actually homophobic, you know, so it shouldn't be that hard to find the sources. The problem you're going to run into, and which Andrew actually sort of alludes to, is that there is plenty other things wrong with them so their homophobia might be low on the list and hence not readily available in online sources. But let's get a cite or two and then the cat can go in. radek ( talk) 00:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
So, the lead says it has been affiliated with the League of Polish Families since 2001, but the article then states that the League of Polish Families broke ties with the group in 2006. Which is it? Also, why does the lead twice state the group's apparently former affiliation with LPR? Ostap 20:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
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I have just modified 2 external links on All-Polish Youth. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:35, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Hello, In the sidebar anti-capitalism is listed an an ideology of the organisation. This seems incorrect, can someone with permissions find & cite a source or remove? 37.248.154.138 ( talk) 15:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)SirFranx
Every so often, someone tries to remove the academic reliable source stating that the organisation is based on fascist doctrines. The exact quotes is: "this movement, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga". To me that is quite clear and non-controversial, especially there are no reliable sources to state that this is not true. Abcmaxx ( talk) 14:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
"This group, modeled after the interwar fascist movement Falanga (...)" - Falanga is all right considered as somehow fascist like movement (although not to confuse with Italian fascism). However "This group" is related to the RN, which includes more ideologically radical organizations, like ONR. So it does not even refer to the All Polish Youth directly, and user Abcmaxx, either intentionally (or unintentionally - if didn't even checked the source), is incorrectly using the source. More than that, source (in the table on the same page!) is counting All Polish Youth as: "religious fundamentalists". BTW how this source is reliable may be seen in that: Kukiz15 as the "Party", while it never was political party. Further, Radio Maryja is called "Movement", while it is radio broadcaster... and so on... so author apparently have limited knowledge and is using too many shortcuts. However main problem here is that some users are forcing false, not even supported by source. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I am removing this nonsense again, sources provided by user are stating something completly different!!! Sosnowska, N., 2014. "Funkcje słowa faszyści oraz jego synonimów we współczesnym dyskursie polityczno-medialnym i poza nim." "Istotne jest to, że wyżej wymienione leksemy odnoszą się w większości wy-padków do ugrupowań z prawej strony sceny politycznej (biorąc rzecz umow-nie), a więc nie tylko do ruchów z założenia neofaszystowskich, niekryjących swoich powiązań z faszyzmem (nota bene: są one zakazane na mocy Konstytucji z 02.04.1997 r.1), ale również do prawicowych partii i stowarzyszeń pozaparla-mentarnych, jak np. ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska czy powstały niedawno (po Marszu Niepodległości 11.11.2012 r.) Ruch Narodo-wy, a także parlamentarnych, jak np. PiS." So this source is actually stating that term fascist is inappropriately used for a lot of right wing parties, including: ONR (Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny), Młodzież Wszechpolska, Ruch Narodo-wy, or PiS (current government). User Abcmaxx should be immediately blocked, and his editor rights removed, as false editions make significant damage to the Wikipedia project. Best Regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Page 365 "Inwektywa faszyści jest stosowana wobec tych ugrupowań z tego względu, że naród stawiają na pierwszym miejscu, co zwolennikom lewicy i liberałów, którzy takie etykietki stosują, wydaje się podejrzane". (My translation: "Invective fascists is applied to these groups, because they consider nation most valuable, for supporters of the left and liberals, who use such labels, this seem suspicious"). Well "Invective", "labels"... Author on all page 365 and other pages is explaining in different ways that "fascism" become form of lexeme, used by some people in the way which doesn't correspond to the original meaning. I honestly can't be sure if user Abcmaxx has misinterpreted the source intentionally or not, but it is still very bad practice, and harming Wikipedia awfully. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 21 June 2020 (UTC)
First of all, gentlemen @ Abcmaxx: and @ Kojoto:, please stop edit warring in the article. I should've probably already blocked you both for WP:3RR violation. As for your dispute, "ultranationalist" and "based on fascist doctrines" are strong labels that need better sourcing. Everyone nowadays likes to throw the "fascist" epithet around. In words of fascism scholar Robert O. Paxton - "Everyone is someone's fascist." We need more and better, non-partisan sources. Also, the lede should be neutral as much as possible. The two All-Polish Youths (interwar and contemporary) are not identical twins, and the article should make a clear distinction between them, not to confuse the reader.-- Darwinek ( talk) 00:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I do 100% agree with Darwinek voice. To be honest article reminds some comment about All Polish Youth, not the neutral information. In example information about TV accusing "members" of the organisation for taking part in neo-nazi event, followed by the note that it was whole fake news and linked to the actual dementi by same TV. This and some other parts needs fixes. BTW avoiding strong terms (particularly not supported by source) comes along with the output of the source (Sosnowska 2014) provided by Abcmaxx. Best regards. Kojoto Kojoto ( talk) 02:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Voice above is the proof that people with so strong ideological motivation should be not able to edit Wikipedia. As no matter what true is, they will see "fascist" whenever they want. And user Abcmaxx for instance, is not even hiding his motivation. Too bad... Kojoto ( talk) 12:18, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
WP:NPA: Stop it right now. Staszek Lem ( talk) 20:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Instead of wrangling over the stickers and labels, you better get the facts in the article straight, especially the unreferenced ones. I fixed one of them now, but the rest is all yours. I have no particular interest, nor expertise in the subject. Staszek Lem ( talk) 21:29, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Fair point. Altough I always thought that strict following the sources is not in question. And using source not supporting the facts in the article is considered as violation of the rules. You entirely right it should be done with a good manner. Best regards. Kojoto ( talk) 14:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
As per my very 1st comment, the exact quote is: "this group, modelled after the inter-war fascist movement Falanga". Abcmaxx ( talk) 01:57, 3 July 2020 (UTC)