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![]() | On 3 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Alexey Stakhanov to Alexei Stakhanov. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Someone please add link: /info/en/?search=John_Henry_(folklore) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CFA5:42A0:1856:D3D0:2063:CD36 ( talk) 19:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Okay i am talking about the story Animal Farm and i would like to know is Boxer the horse is that the person who played as Aleksei—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.131.191 ( talk) 23:35, 18 March 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
I suspect that this is one of the many systematic attempts to smear the Soviet order that were so common in the 1980-1990s. I'd like to see some references if this claim is to be put back. If there are no references, then this is just slander and slander should have no place in a free encyclopedia. Paranoid 20:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the "Propaganda questions" section that Fastfission added. The text is below:
My justification for the deletion:
My responses:
I am reinstating the text. Feel free to edit it down, or the rest of the article up, as you feel fit. Deleting it and all references to the fact that doubt has been cast by mainstream sources is inappropriate and smacks of your own intellectual dishonestly. I could care less about this one productive miner, but I absolutely detest your blatant biases and your inability to be intellectually honest. You count things from mainstream sources as "lies" and don't cite a single source of your own, and make no attempt to accord with NPOV. This is inappropriate. If these were fringe accusations, made only by completely non-reputable sources, you would be justified in minimizing them. Such is not the case. Text reinstated. -- Fastfission 12:30, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Much better than the New York Times are newspapers such as "Technical newspaper" [2] or "Dnestrovsky courier" [3] (both links in Russian). They present the facts without vile personal attacks. Yes, Stakhanov was not a perfect Prometeus-like superhuman. But it doesn't make Wikipedia justice to attempt to belittle him using the anti-Soviet lies.
Going back to the original passage that I removed about "adding the production of his co-workers to his own total". This was clearly written by a twisted mind, a snake, a man with a worm-tongue. This text creates the impression that a team of miners went to the mine and their whole production was false attributed to Stakhanov so that the evil communists could use this for their evil propaganda purposes. Needless to say, that this is indeed a lie.
In reality Stakhanov's feat happened a short time after pneumatic drills were introduced in the mines (te first pneumatic drill was invented only in 1912). They were expensive and valuable. That's why the norms were set per drill. There were plenty of timber-men able to propping the ceiling of the mine (sorry for bad technical English), it was the productivity of coal-miners that was important. Stakhanov demonstrated how it can be drastically improved with division of labour. With the help of only two assistants he exceeded the norm 14 times. Everyone knew that he had these two assistants, it wasn't a secret, nobody pretended that Stakhanov did it alone, but economically and technologically it wasn't relevant - the important thing was to increase the production per pneumatic drill per day.
When people such as that Serge Schmemann twist the facts in such way, they are commiting a crime against the Soviet civilization, a crime against people and a crime against truth. I don't want to see Wikipedia as an acomplice in these crimes... Paranoid 13:42, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you want to engage this with reputable, verifiable sources, by all means, please do. Feel free to cite and quote and attribute, as I have myself done. Make an effort to be factual and NPOV. If you want to post a rebuttal to the NYT approach, please feel free, but properly attribute it, do not just present it as the self-evident fact that "everybody knew". I believe attribution of facts and opinions should be undertaken as much as possible -- facts and opinions do not just exist "in the air", they are called into action by human beings. If their constructedness is acknowledged, it saves us from the unfortunate position of trying to express "truth" about something neither you nor I have any personal experience with. It is how the historian works. What I am against is attributing the Soviet party line as being the only possible truth -- clearly nobody in this situation was without political motivation. A symmetrical methodology would imply that you recognized that the USSR had at least as much to gain in trumping up achievements as the US did in denigrating them. The Soviets were not exactly known for their impartial objectivity, whatever you think of the US stance. It would be ideal if you could find reputable sources to cite, so that it could be easily checked by others on this Wikipedia portal, but if that's not possible I'm sure it will be possible to find a few other Russian readers to do so (I can't evaluate the veracity of Russian sources at all at the moment). -- Fastfission 16:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We should keep the questioning of the official story, but only because it exists and was noteworthy. We should, however, cut it down a bit and tone the supportive language down as the official Soviet-reported story is supported by more evidence, such as private documents, diaries etc. from the time. It is pretty much a fact that Stakhanov did have a great achievement, and the fact that people want to denigrate the achievements of a common working-man simply for the sake of some anti-Soviet government propaganda is very sad. It is the same with many accounts from the USSR which elevated working-men to heroes. The view that many of these were government lies and hoaxes is often treated as a fact by the West, yet we have no documents in the archives that prove otherwise (yet they have documents for KGB activities and all sorts), which does lead credence to the view that many, if not most of these cases, were actually true. The fact that the West hates the USSR, should mean that the achievements of working-men should be put into doubt without a shred of evidence, as is the case with Stakhanov. 90.203.89.62 ( talk) 08:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for trying, Fastfission, but it is still deceitful. Is it OK if I post in my blog that your might have been raping little kids and eating puppies alive and then someone else will post this on Wikipedia as a legitimate point of view?
Our goal here is not to present opposing points of view - it's a job for Wikinfo or some such project. We must be neutral and stick to the facts. The selective quotes from Times distort the truth, they even distort what Petrov said.
The fuller quote is here. It's not Times quoting Petrov, it's Times quoting Pravda. And they hand pick the quotes to create an absolutely wrong impression.
I am sorry, but the point of view of NYT has no right to appear in the article. If it is to be included, we must clarify that it is a made-up controversy created by anti-Soviet forces in order to smear the Soviet order. It may sound high-flown, but it is reality. I explained above why the version currently presented in "Validity questioned" is a lie.
I mean, NYT intentionally distorted (or that Serge guy did) the truth. They cherry picked the facts, picked some out of context quotes and tried to cast doubts on Stakhanov's achievement. This is not an opposing point of view, this is a clear attempt to mislead. And yet you quote NYT as if they had a valid position that must be represented. This is nonsense. I appreciate your good faith attempt at re-editing, but I simply can't see how a demonstratively false NYT propaganda can be included in the article.
It may be possible to explain the truth behind these attempts to smear this particular Soviet hero, but I am not convinced that is terribly useful. However, I do not have any objections against that - it's just that currently you simply give too much credit to liars and their falsehoods. Paranoid 16:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid New York Times journalists and its readers will never understand the dignity of labour. They will never understand how it ennobles the man, how building your own country can be the most honourable thing in the world. Search for "workers" at nytimes.com, you won't find anything. It is expected for a biased capitalist newspaper (with all the talks about liberal bias vs. righ-wing bias you forget that it's biased against the working people). Where are the films glorifying the labour in the US? Of course, when these people see Aleksei Stakhanov, a true labour hero that was respected by millions and who set an example for them, the immediate impulse is to smear his image with dirt, to deny that it can happen, that a "lower-class" man can be respected. This should not be the attitude of Wikipedia. Paranoid 18:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is there any specific reason why the names of the mines are in a different script, viz. "№31" versuses "No. 31"? It looks not only odd but even pretentious, without some explanation for this usage. -- llywrch 19:22, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Stakhanovism sounds the the beginning of the modern sales contest. Managers find someone to set an outrageously high target and then admonish everyone to aspire to it. As days dwindle and reality begins to rear its ugly head, those who doubted all along are silenced through terrorism or termination. As the final days arrive, salesmen reach ahead to push product into clients' inventories and convert future sales into the sales contest, thereby increasing production through gimmicktry and at the expense of future productivity. At the close of the contest, mangement is not obliged to reward any increased productivity because the target was not reached, but may do so out of the goodness of their hearts, and the organization then purges itself of anyone who was smart enough to see how it would conclude, even blaming them for ruining the sales effort with their negative attitudes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.0.91 ( talk) 19:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Stakhanovism sounds the the beginning of the modern sales contest. Managers find someone to set an outrageously high target and then admonish everyone to aspire to it. As days dwindle and reality begins to rear its ugly head, those who doubted all along are silenced through terrorism or termination. As the final days arrive, salesmen reach ahead to push product into clients' inventories and convert future sales into the sales contest, thereby increasing production through gimmicktry and at the expense of future productivity. At the close of the contest, mangement is not obliged to reward any increased productivity because the target was not reached, but may do so out of the goodness of their hearts, and the organization then purges itself of anyone who was smart enough to see how it would conclude, even blaming them for ruining the sales effort with their negative attitudes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.8.75 ( talk) 02:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
the last paragraph of the main section is too repetitive of earlier material; can someone please delete redundancy and move the S. Movement reference to the first paragraph where it belongs? Coughinink 14:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Image:Time - Stakhanov.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot ( talk) 19:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't Stakhanov the model for Boxer, from George Orwell's Animal Farm? - 114.76.227.0 ( talk) 14:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Alexey was born in 1906..Alexey began working in a mine in 1906. Might be a typo but can we have this fixed? I can't find a source on his date of birth, but of course he doesn't start working right at birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Russell leb ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
This person was a propaganda tool of the Soviet regime. It was irrelevant whether or not he actually achieved any records - probably he did not. The publicity around him was a typical communist propaganda ploy. Yet this article is written as if it was simply all true, and the fame genuine. This should be corrected Royalcourtier ( talk) 22:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Many Stakhanovites were beaten or killed by other workers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.39.71.98 ( talk) 08:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
His name was Alexey, but he was born Andrei. There is a story in the Eastern block that he was forced to change his first name because the telegram the Pravda received about his first big achievement only contained "A. Stakhanov", and they guessed that it was Alexey :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.21.207 ( talk) 11:55, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
From what I have understood with an automatic translation of the Russian Wikipedia ru:Стаханов, Алексей Григорьевич#Биография, this is a legend. Somebody that understands Russian should check. Tcp-ip ( talk) 07:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 01:25, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Alexey Stakhanov → Alexei Stakhanov – WP:COMMONNAME, per Google Books Ngram. — Michael Z. 21:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Stop removing the paragraph about his alcoholism and the brawl. It is necessary here not to ridicule him, but to show a real person, warts and all. Alcoholism was and is a perennial issue in Russia and it should be of value to note whenever and how it affected famous people. It is not a pretty sight, but such is life. This is not hagiography.
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | On 3 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Alexey Stakhanov to Alexei Stakhanov. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Someone please add link: /info/en/?search=John_Henry_(folklore) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CFA5:42A0:1856:D3D0:2063:CD36 ( talk) 19:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Okay i am talking about the story Animal Farm and i would like to know is Boxer the horse is that the person who played as Aleksei—Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.131.191 ( talk) 23:35, 18 March 2004 (UTC)
I removed the following text:
I suspect that this is one of the many systematic attempts to smear the Soviet order that were so common in the 1980-1990s. I'd like to see some references if this claim is to be put back. If there are no references, then this is just slander and slander should have no place in a free encyclopedia. Paranoid 20:03, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I deleted the "Propaganda questions" section that Fastfission added. The text is below:
My justification for the deletion:
My responses:
I am reinstating the text. Feel free to edit it down, or the rest of the article up, as you feel fit. Deleting it and all references to the fact that doubt has been cast by mainstream sources is inappropriate and smacks of your own intellectual dishonestly. I could care less about this one productive miner, but I absolutely detest your blatant biases and your inability to be intellectually honest. You count things from mainstream sources as "lies" and don't cite a single source of your own, and make no attempt to accord with NPOV. This is inappropriate. If these were fringe accusations, made only by completely non-reputable sources, you would be justified in minimizing them. Such is not the case. Text reinstated. -- Fastfission 12:30, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Much better than the New York Times are newspapers such as "Technical newspaper" [2] or "Dnestrovsky courier" [3] (both links in Russian). They present the facts without vile personal attacks. Yes, Stakhanov was not a perfect Prometeus-like superhuman. But it doesn't make Wikipedia justice to attempt to belittle him using the anti-Soviet lies.
Going back to the original passage that I removed about "adding the production of his co-workers to his own total". This was clearly written by a twisted mind, a snake, a man with a worm-tongue. This text creates the impression that a team of miners went to the mine and their whole production was false attributed to Stakhanov so that the evil communists could use this for their evil propaganda purposes. Needless to say, that this is indeed a lie.
In reality Stakhanov's feat happened a short time after pneumatic drills were introduced in the mines (te first pneumatic drill was invented only in 1912). They were expensive and valuable. That's why the norms were set per drill. There were plenty of timber-men able to propping the ceiling of the mine (sorry for bad technical English), it was the productivity of coal-miners that was important. Stakhanov demonstrated how it can be drastically improved with division of labour. With the help of only two assistants he exceeded the norm 14 times. Everyone knew that he had these two assistants, it wasn't a secret, nobody pretended that Stakhanov did it alone, but economically and technologically it wasn't relevant - the important thing was to increase the production per pneumatic drill per day.
When people such as that Serge Schmemann twist the facts in such way, they are commiting a crime against the Soviet civilization, a crime against people and a crime against truth. I don't want to see Wikipedia as an acomplice in these crimes... Paranoid 13:42, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If you want to engage this with reputable, verifiable sources, by all means, please do. Feel free to cite and quote and attribute, as I have myself done. Make an effort to be factual and NPOV. If you want to post a rebuttal to the NYT approach, please feel free, but properly attribute it, do not just present it as the self-evident fact that "everybody knew". I believe attribution of facts and opinions should be undertaken as much as possible -- facts and opinions do not just exist "in the air", they are called into action by human beings. If their constructedness is acknowledged, it saves us from the unfortunate position of trying to express "truth" about something neither you nor I have any personal experience with. It is how the historian works. What I am against is attributing the Soviet party line as being the only possible truth -- clearly nobody in this situation was without political motivation. A symmetrical methodology would imply that you recognized that the USSR had at least as much to gain in trumping up achievements as the US did in denigrating them. The Soviets were not exactly known for their impartial objectivity, whatever you think of the US stance. It would be ideal if you could find reputable sources to cite, so that it could be easily checked by others on this Wikipedia portal, but if that's not possible I'm sure it will be possible to find a few other Russian readers to do so (I can't evaluate the veracity of Russian sources at all at the moment). -- Fastfission 16:05, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
We should keep the questioning of the official story, but only because it exists and was noteworthy. We should, however, cut it down a bit and tone the supportive language down as the official Soviet-reported story is supported by more evidence, such as private documents, diaries etc. from the time. It is pretty much a fact that Stakhanov did have a great achievement, and the fact that people want to denigrate the achievements of a common working-man simply for the sake of some anti-Soviet government propaganda is very sad. It is the same with many accounts from the USSR which elevated working-men to heroes. The view that many of these were government lies and hoaxes is often treated as a fact by the West, yet we have no documents in the archives that prove otherwise (yet they have documents for KGB activities and all sorts), which does lead credence to the view that many, if not most of these cases, were actually true. The fact that the West hates the USSR, should mean that the achievements of working-men should be put into doubt without a shred of evidence, as is the case with Stakhanov. 90.203.89.62 ( talk) 08:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for trying, Fastfission, but it is still deceitful. Is it OK if I post in my blog that your might have been raping little kids and eating puppies alive and then someone else will post this on Wikipedia as a legitimate point of view?
Our goal here is not to present opposing points of view - it's a job for Wikinfo or some such project. We must be neutral and stick to the facts. The selective quotes from Times distort the truth, they even distort what Petrov said.
The fuller quote is here. It's not Times quoting Petrov, it's Times quoting Pravda. And they hand pick the quotes to create an absolutely wrong impression.
I am sorry, but the point of view of NYT has no right to appear in the article. If it is to be included, we must clarify that it is a made-up controversy created by anti-Soviet forces in order to smear the Soviet order. It may sound high-flown, but it is reality. I explained above why the version currently presented in "Validity questioned" is a lie.
I mean, NYT intentionally distorted (or that Serge guy did) the truth. They cherry picked the facts, picked some out of context quotes and tried to cast doubts on Stakhanov's achievement. This is not an opposing point of view, this is a clear attempt to mislead. And yet you quote NYT as if they had a valid position that must be represented. This is nonsense. I appreciate your good faith attempt at re-editing, but I simply can't see how a demonstratively false NYT propaganda can be included in the article.
It may be possible to explain the truth behind these attempts to smear this particular Soviet hero, but I am not convinced that is terribly useful. However, I do not have any objections against that - it's just that currently you simply give too much credit to liars and their falsehoods. Paranoid 16:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid New York Times journalists and its readers will never understand the dignity of labour. They will never understand how it ennobles the man, how building your own country can be the most honourable thing in the world. Search for "workers" at nytimes.com, you won't find anything. It is expected for a biased capitalist newspaper (with all the talks about liberal bias vs. righ-wing bias you forget that it's biased against the working people). Where are the films glorifying the labour in the US? Of course, when these people see Aleksei Stakhanov, a true labour hero that was respected by millions and who set an example for them, the immediate impulse is to smear his image with dirt, to deny that it can happen, that a "lower-class" man can be respected. This should not be the attitude of Wikipedia. Paranoid 18:25, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is there any specific reason why the names of the mines are in a different script, viz. "№31" versuses "No. 31"? It looks not only odd but even pretentious, without some explanation for this usage. -- llywrch 19:22, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
Stakhanovism sounds the the beginning of the modern sales contest. Managers find someone to set an outrageously high target and then admonish everyone to aspire to it. As days dwindle and reality begins to rear its ugly head, those who doubted all along are silenced through terrorism or termination. As the final days arrive, salesmen reach ahead to push product into clients' inventories and convert future sales into the sales contest, thereby increasing production through gimmicktry and at the expense of future productivity. At the close of the contest, mangement is not obliged to reward any increased productivity because the target was not reached, but may do so out of the goodness of their hearts, and the organization then purges itself of anyone who was smart enough to see how it would conclude, even blaming them for ruining the sales effort with their negative attitudes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.0.91 ( talk) 19:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Stakhanovism sounds the the beginning of the modern sales contest. Managers find someone to set an outrageously high target and then admonish everyone to aspire to it. As days dwindle and reality begins to rear its ugly head, those who doubted all along are silenced through terrorism or termination. As the final days arrive, salesmen reach ahead to push product into clients' inventories and convert future sales into the sales contest, thereby increasing production through gimmicktry and at the expense of future productivity. At the close of the contest, mangement is not obliged to reward any increased productivity because the target was not reached, but may do so out of the goodness of their hearts, and the organization then purges itself of anyone who was smart enough to see how it would conclude, even blaming them for ruining the sales effort with their negative attitudes.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.8.75 ( talk) 02:15, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
the last paragraph of the main section is too repetitive of earlier material; can someone please delete redundancy and move the S. Movement reference to the first paragraph where it belongs? Coughinink 14:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Image:Time - Stakhanov.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page. If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot ( talk) 19:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't Stakhanov the model for Boxer, from George Orwell's Animal Farm? - 114.76.227.0 ( talk) 14:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
Alexey was born in 1906..Alexey began working in a mine in 1906. Might be a typo but can we have this fixed? I can't find a source on his date of birth, but of course he doesn't start working right at birth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Russell leb ( talk • contribs) 02:29, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
This person was a propaganda tool of the Soviet regime. It was irrelevant whether or not he actually achieved any records - probably he did not. The publicity around him was a typical communist propaganda ploy. Yet this article is written as if it was simply all true, and the fame genuine. This should be corrected Royalcourtier ( talk) 22:06, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Many Stakhanovites were beaten or killed by other workers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.39.71.98 ( talk) 08:56, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
His name was Alexey, but he was born Andrei. There is a story in the Eastern block that he was forced to change his first name because the telegram the Pravda received about his first big achievement only contained "A. Stakhanov", and they guessed that it was Alexey :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.21.207 ( talk) 11:55, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
From what I have understood with an automatic translation of the Russian Wikipedia ru:Стаханов, Алексей Григорьевич#Биография, this is a legend. Somebody that understands Russian should check. Tcp-ip ( talk) 07:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 01:25, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Alexey Stakhanov → Alexei Stakhanov – WP:COMMONNAME, per Google Books Ngram. — Michael Z. 21:28, 3 January 2023 (UTC)
Stop removing the paragraph about his alcoholism and the brawl. It is necessary here not to ridicule him, but to show a real person, warts and all. Alcoholism was and is a perennial issue in Russia and it should be of value to note whenever and how it affected famous people. It is not a pretty sight, but such is life. This is not hagiography.