This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Alex van der Zwaan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Coincidentally, he worked at same law firm as Pauly Manfort's daughter, Andrea Manafort Shand. Realizing the risk of POV and conjecturing as to the meaning of my use of "coincidentally"; any imputation is unintended and only stated as a matter of fact. https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-shand-75760835/ -- Wikipietime ( talk) 14:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
With a little digging, your will discover this community to be small and close-knit. You will find the names, starting with spouses. The article is not about them; they are irrelevant to the story, so they should be left out. Rhadow ( talk) 19:09, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Skadden Arps has everything to do with this story. It WAY overbilled for van der Swaan's work. See reference. Rhadow ( talk) 21:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm seeing his name be capitalized differently in the media outlets. What is the correct form of his name?
NBC News article says it's 'Alex van der Zwaan': https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mueller-files-new-charge-russia-probe-against-lawyer-accused-lying-n849566
USA Today article says it's 'Alex Van Der Zwaan': https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/20/attorney-charged-lying-russia-special-counsel-probe/354221002/
Washington Post article says it's 'Alex Van der Zwaan': https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/mueller-probe-london-based-son-of-russian-businessman-to-plead-guilty-to-false-statements/2018/02/20/142f4d2e-164b-11e8-b681-2d4d462a1921_story.html
FunksBrother ( talk) 20:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
The surname appears to be van der Zwaan, or Van der Zwaan at the beginning of a sentence. I am also wondering about the common name of the law firm. We have been calling it Skadden Arps. But if you look at our article Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, it mostly calls the firm simply Skadden. Sources mostly do the same. I think we should do the same. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Let's be sure to use neutral, unbiased sources. I had to remove some stuff because the info came from sites that were not neutral. Thanks, everybody! BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 22:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
There is a comment that van der Zwan has Russian "roots". The original source is tatler.ru ( https://www.tatler.ru/geroi/sem-glavnyh-svadeb-leta-2017-po-versii-tatler}. If we use this as a reliable source Wikipedia will lose its staus as an encylopedia. Mwinog2777 ( talk) 20:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Does anybody know if van der Zwann's conviction and prison sentence prevent him from entering the United States once he is released??? For that matter, will he automatically be deported once he has served his sentence? Thanks in advance to anybody who knows or has links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.42.133 ( talk) 13:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
"But that timing (going to London) is uncertain because it's not clear he can voluntarily self-deport after serving the prison term or whether he will enter the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement first." Says NPR source. Pretty clear he will be deported or allowed to self deport. Presumably deported felons can't just hop on a plane back to the USA a week later after being deported. I don't know the exclusion time period. Legacypac ( talk) 14:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
List of people deported or removed from the United States has better coverage than Deportation and removal from the United States but neither answer the question of how long it someone is excluded or what the procedure is. Legacypac ( talk) 15:20, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
According to the sources reporting on the sentencing there is no doubt he will be removed (the correct term for what used to be Deported) from the US. The only question is will ICE allow him to self deport or will ICE do the deed themselves. It seems that was outside the judge's control, maybe an ICE admin decision. Legacypac ( talk) 00:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
You are unable to work as a lawyer once you have pleaded guilty to a criminal charge. Should say he’s an ex lawyer 101.183.21.131 ( talk) 12:13, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
The date style in the body text of this wiki article was consistently American from the beginning, but someone just changed it to British style. Could we get a consensus on this? Although the subject is European and resides in Britain, his only notability is in American political events. Therefore in my opinion the article should return to American date styles. What does everyone else think? GreyGoose ( talk) 00:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Since no one seems to object to a return to the original date style, and new additions to the article are currently being added in American date style, I have changed it back. GreyGoose ( talk) 08:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Mr. van der Zwaan, a person noteworthy for one criminally false statement in a particularly high-profile investigation, is a private person. Details leading up to his conviction are statements about the prosecutor, perhaps, but are not appropriate in a BLP about a private person. Similarly, punishment the prosecutor recommended to a court is not appropriate in a BLP. Details of charges must be treated with skepticism, and reverters User:BullRangifer or User:Drmies are obligated to examine whether the subject was indeed convicted of these accusations, and must find new sources confirming the accusations were indeed proven. Especially after a conviction, the minutiae of charges, especially those not substantiated by the conviction, are not appropriate in a BLP, especially one of a person noted for a sole event. I'm also skeptical that his employment status belongs in a BLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
This individual is noteable for one event, arguably one utterance. It's not clear to me why they have their own page. Its defenders might need to clean it up substantially, as it does not present a full and balanced biography. I agree the criminal act and details around it should appear in coverage of criminal acts associated with the Mueller investigation.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Avoiding_harm#Pseudo-biographies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
This is building down to an contradiction fallacy by User:BullRangifer: "Even if notable for one event, once an article is created, we fill it with nearly everything covered in RS. We create as full a biography as possible. We don't keep it to the one event." No. If a person is notable for one event, we stop pretending they're generally notable, and fold the germane details of their role in history into the non-individual topic where that's documented. You think you've found a sort of loophole in the BLP principles, but you haven't. And you can't interact with me. If I'm going to learn BLP inside-and-out, I need to stop you and assure mentions of this total stranger on Wikipedia comply with BLP principles and guidelines. So much work to do. Please cease your belligerence and enter into dialog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#People_notable_for_only_one_event
Let's do the work, User:BullRangifer and not pretend we don't see his notability bar failure!
That's the main place where this person, noteworthy for one event, should be covered. This page focused on this person should not exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Alex van der Zwaan article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
Coincidentally, he worked at same law firm as Pauly Manfort's daughter, Andrea Manafort Shand. Realizing the risk of POV and conjecturing as to the meaning of my use of "coincidentally"; any imputation is unintended and only stated as a matter of fact. https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-shand-75760835/ -- Wikipietime ( talk) 14:45, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
With a little digging, your will discover this community to be small and close-knit. You will find the names, starting with spouses. The article is not about them; they are irrelevant to the story, so they should be left out. Rhadow ( talk) 19:09, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Skadden Arps has everything to do with this story. It WAY overbilled for van der Swaan's work. See reference. Rhadow ( talk) 21:15, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm seeing his name be capitalized differently in the media outlets. What is the correct form of his name?
NBC News article says it's 'Alex van der Zwaan': https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/mueller-files-new-charge-russia-probe-against-lawyer-accused-lying-n849566
USA Today article says it's 'Alex Van Der Zwaan': https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/20/attorney-charged-lying-russia-special-counsel-probe/354221002/
Washington Post article says it's 'Alex Van der Zwaan': https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/mueller-probe-london-based-son-of-russian-businessman-to-plead-guilty-to-false-statements/2018/02/20/142f4d2e-164b-11e8-b681-2d4d462a1921_story.html
FunksBrother ( talk) 20:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
The surname appears to be van der Zwaan, or Van der Zwaan at the beginning of a sentence. I am also wondering about the common name of the law firm. We have been calling it Skadden Arps. But if you look at our article Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom, it mostly calls the firm simply Skadden. Sources mostly do the same. I think we should do the same. -- MelanieN ( talk) 21:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Let's be sure to use neutral, unbiased sources. I had to remove some stuff because the info came from sites that were not neutral. Thanks, everybody! BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 22:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
There is a comment that van der Zwan has Russian "roots". The original source is tatler.ru ( https://www.tatler.ru/geroi/sem-glavnyh-svadeb-leta-2017-po-versii-tatler}. If we use this as a reliable source Wikipedia will lose its staus as an encylopedia. Mwinog2777 ( talk) 20:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Does anybody know if van der Zwann's conviction and prison sentence prevent him from entering the United States once he is released??? For that matter, will he automatically be deported once he has served his sentence? Thanks in advance to anybody who knows or has links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.42.133 ( talk) 13:56, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
"But that timing (going to London) is uncertain because it's not clear he can voluntarily self-deport after serving the prison term or whether he will enter the custody of Immigration and Customs Enforcement first." Says NPR source. Pretty clear he will be deported or allowed to self deport. Presumably deported felons can't just hop on a plane back to the USA a week later after being deported. I don't know the exclusion time period. Legacypac ( talk) 14:46, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
List of people deported or removed from the United States has better coverage than Deportation and removal from the United States but neither answer the question of how long it someone is excluded or what the procedure is. Legacypac ( talk) 15:20, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
According to the sources reporting on the sentencing there is no doubt he will be removed (the correct term for what used to be Deported) from the US. The only question is will ICE allow him to self deport or will ICE do the deed themselves. It seems that was outside the judge's control, maybe an ICE admin decision. Legacypac ( talk) 00:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
You are unable to work as a lawyer once you have pleaded guilty to a criminal charge. Should say he’s an ex lawyer 101.183.21.131 ( talk) 12:13, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
The date style in the body text of this wiki article was consistently American from the beginning, but someone just changed it to British style. Could we get a consensus on this? Although the subject is European and resides in Britain, his only notability is in American political events. Therefore in my opinion the article should return to American date styles. What does everyone else think? GreyGoose ( talk) 00:32, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Since no one seems to object to a return to the original date style, and new additions to the article are currently being added in American date style, I have changed it back. GreyGoose ( talk) 08:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
Mr. van der Zwaan, a person noteworthy for one criminally false statement in a particularly high-profile investigation, is a private person. Details leading up to his conviction are statements about the prosecutor, perhaps, but are not appropriate in a BLP about a private person. Similarly, punishment the prosecutor recommended to a court is not appropriate in a BLP. Details of charges must be treated with skepticism, and reverters User:BullRangifer or User:Drmies are obligated to examine whether the subject was indeed convicted of these accusations, and must find new sources confirming the accusations were indeed proven. Especially after a conviction, the minutiae of charges, especially those not substantiated by the conviction, are not appropriate in a BLP, especially one of a person noted for a sole event. I'm also skeptical that his employment status belongs in a BLP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 20:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
This individual is noteable for one event, arguably one utterance. It's not clear to me why they have their own page. Its defenders might need to clean it up substantially, as it does not present a full and balanced biography. I agree the criminal act and details around it should appear in coverage of criminal acts associated with the Mueller investigation.
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Avoiding_harm#Pseudo-biographies — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 21:14, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
This is building down to an contradiction fallacy by User:BullRangifer: "Even if notable for one event, once an article is created, we fill it with nearly everything covered in RS. We create as full a biography as possible. We don't keep it to the one event." No. If a person is notable for one event, we stop pretending they're generally notable, and fold the germane details of their role in history into the non-individual topic where that's documented. You think you've found a sort of loophole in the BLP principles, but you haven't. And you can't interact with me. If I'm going to learn BLP inside-and-out, I need to stop you and assure mentions of this total stranger on Wikipedia comply with BLP principles and guidelines. So much work to do. Please cease your belligerence and enter into dialog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 02:53, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#People_notable_for_only_one_event
Let's do the work, User:BullRangifer and not pretend we don't see his notability bar failure!
That's the main place where this person, noteworthy for one event, should be covered. This page focused on this person should not exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcfnord ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 24 December 2018 (UTC)