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I've removed all the 'fact' tags and locked the page. Please work out your disagreements here. Tom Harrison Talk 13:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Catherine also deleted my reference to AC's remembered past life as Ko Hsuan, which seems eminently relevant to the question of his racial views about the Chinese. I also wanted to add more about his views on India. The article says he thought Britain conquered them by "moral superiority", which seems frankly dishonest considering what he wrote before that (still in Confessions Ch 34):
and
Dan 22:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Amazon.com now has a "search in book" option for almost all of their books - notably including most of those by and about Crowley. I wouldn't recommend using these online versions as cites, but this feature gives you the ability to do virtually unlimited text searches in these book - which you can then use to find relevant passages in your hardcopies. It's like the ultimate index. Psuliin 06:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if AC actually did publish "vicious denouncements of the people whose cultures had produced" the teachings he stole, at least not in any way that would contradict his respect for foreign teachings and teachers. Allow me to explain. First, he does not call Indians "inferior animals" as the paragraph suggests. He puts that phrase in the mouth of others and suggests that he considers it dishonest or foolish: To begin with, they cannot stand the climate, which compels them to live lives whose inevitable tendency is to relax the moral fibre. Thus even highclass memsahibs sometimes have themselves bathed by their beras. The excuse is that any sexual irregularity with such inferior animals is unthinkable. [1] I've already reproduced the context for this passage and the article's misleading isolated quote about "moral superiority". We don't know if he meant what he said, or offered some or all of it as a Modest Proposal to people who wanted to keep ruling India, but we do know he explicitly rejected the 'white man's burden' garbage about bringing our superior culture to that subcontinent. Second, the following quotes on the subject of Jews and Chinese (from the pages that the article cites as evidence of "racist statements") do not seem racist in the original sense of calling one race inherently or uniformly better than another. Not one of them blames the alleged negative traits on genetics. Instead they mention cultural factors, specifically the effects of suffering and oppression:
and
All of that belongs in the article. (On the other hand, we don't need Sutin to tell us that AC slanderously accused Jews of child-murder in Book Four. That work appears online, bigotry and all.) Meanwhile, I could make a case that AC held racist beliefs about blacks. But I don't think the words "Black School" or "Black masters" belong in the article unless we explain what he could have meant (see here and here), which would take rather a lot of space. Dan 21:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Accordingly, I've moved the following italicised paragraph from the article and tried to rephrase some other parts in objectively verifiable terms. The first sentence of that section still needs work; I'll see if I can find Sutin actually using the word "racist". We probably want to mention his arguments about India, but I don't have time to put it together now (see previous talk section). Dan 06:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
His expressions of chauvinistic nationalism included the belief that the British military conquest of India had been won not by superior technology, but "by sheer moral superiority" [1] His ideas concerning white supremacism and racial purity were such that he declared that male Indian students should not be allowed into Britain because they might have sex with British women [2]. He likewise felt it was a mistake to allow British "white women" to live in India, where they might intermarry with Indians, [3].
While I think it important to discuss the apparent examples of Anti-Semitism and Racism in Crowleys work, and indeed it is wrong (in my opinion) to defend such attitudes, we must be careful to frame these sort of remarks with context. Were these an attitude of the times in mainstream British society? Afterall, The poetry of T.S Eliot and Ezra Pound, two of the Twentieth Century's most celebrated poets features examples of apparent Anti-Semitism which would today seem shocking to many people, as they can seem very aggressive attacks. T.S. Eliot however seemed to be oblivious to this and indeed had Jewish friends despite this aspect of his work and and Ezra Pound was famously involved with the British facists. Pound later apologised. Anyway, returning to my point, is it not feasible that people seize on Crowley's racist views simply because he is Aleister Crowley, whereas we are more than happy to forgive T.S Eliot? I'm concerned that these aspects have been raised with the intention of defemating his character. We must try, I think, to put them into a wider context without apologising for them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.39.155.142 ( talk • contribs).
Oh and off topic, check out the Talk:Golden_Dawn_tradition page! Zos 23:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's another quote that people might want to consider in discussing Crowley's "anti-semitism." It's cited by Kaczynski (Perdurabo, page 415), from a letter that Crowley wrote to a member of the OTO in Germany. He wrote:
This should be added to other quotes that I see already cited here in balancing the view Cat wishes to present of Crowley as a rabid racist and anti-semite. The truth, based on Crowley's writings (and the fact that his secretary and student, Regardie, was Jewish), is clearly more complex than that. I've been pushing for recognition of that complexity ever since Cat started her campaign, and it seems that we now have the materials needed to make the case. Here's what I would suggest:
First, put Crowley's racial attitudes in their cultural and historical context. Racism, as a concept, was barely coming into vogue during Crowley's lifetime, and racial attitudes that would offend modern sensibilities were literally unremarkable among upper-class Edwardians. I'll find a source to cite on this.
Second, note the way that Crowley's attitudes vary in his writings - and particularly how they change over the years. Cat has provided more than adequate sourcing for one aspect, and we now have others. I think the best way to present this information is chronologically, to show the development in Crowley's views.
Third, let's try to come up with some reason why the reader should care about all of this. The fact that Crowley evinced attitudes consistent with his time and place is no more remarkable than the fact that Tacitus writes disparagingly about Christians. However there are critics who use Crowley's personal beliefs as ad hominen arguments about his work and legacy - as though they had some sort of relevance to the validity of Thelema. I think we can say something in the article along these lines: "Crowley's racial attitudes are controversial to modern readers, and have excited much comment among his critics. Those attitudes are complex, and changed over time." Then list 3-4 representative quotes from those we've collected, to show that development, and put it to bed.
What do you all think? Psuliin 06:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
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Geoff Capp 05:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)Here are a few things that need to be done on the article, as far as I can see.
I'm more than willing to discuss all of this, so we can get the page unlocked and fixed. Zos 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, note 3 would be better (as in, more complete, thus more checkable) as:
{{cite news |first = Horatio] |last = [Bottomley |url = http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/module-subjects-viewpage-pageid-18.phtml |title = The Wickedest Man In The World |work = John Bull |date = [[1923-03-24]] |accessdate = 2006-05-28 }}
This would show: [Bottomley, Horatio] (
1923-03-24).
"The Wickedest Man In The World". John Bull. Retrieved 2006-05-28. {{
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Also, for note 9, which is presently a bare reference:
{{cite book | last = Owen | first = Alex | authorlink = Alex Owen | title = The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern | accessdate = 2006-05-28 | edition = Hardcover | date = 2004-04-14 | publisher = U. Chicago Press | language = English | ISBN = 0226642011 | pages = 192 | chapter = Aleister Crowley in the Desert | chapterurl = http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html }}
Produces:
Owen, Alex (2004-04-14). "Aleister Crowley in the Desert". The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern (Hardcover ed.). U. Chicago Press. p. 192.
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I can, of course, make these changes myself once the article is unlocked, if there are no strenuous objections. Or, someone else can do it - I am not an edit counter. -- Geoff Capp 01:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no objections myself, but cannot speak for the other. I'd raher sources be cited as best as possible to allow readers the ability to properly fact check and is better all around for verifing. And yes the link to Abrahadabra needs to be changed as well. Not quite sure who did that. Zos 03:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
First off, shoud the RFC section have been archived? Perhaps it should be copied to this active talk page. The RfC was very recently filed at WP:RFC/POLICIES by Bearcat ( talk · contribs):
Secondly, I have found some independent, non-fiction sourcing for some of Crowley's disputed views. The following quotes are taken from:
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nothing appears in the sections on his travels I have had the chance to read, nor are there any index entires for "racism" or anything similar, aside from the entry for "anti-Semitic views" cited above. If I do find anything, I'll add it here.
Regarding the RfC proper, I support the view that general biographical material should appear in the main article for any given person, including Crowley, and that if the article becomes overlong, it is other sections that should be forked and summarized, as is currently the case with Thelema and Aleister Crowley in popular culture. -- Geoff Capp 00:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that this article be unprotected Here, seeing as how I was the one who supposedly caused it to be protected. Zos 03:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I shall not be contributing to this page or to WP again, but i do note that again some ill-informed pseudo-editor has attributed to me something i did not write, this time the section on "woman" (now "Susan Strong"). I did not write it. I simply got sufficiently annoyed with its totally off-topic title that i titled it properly. It is about a woman named "Susan Strong." It is not about women (plural). Frankly, a person who does not have the simple competence to read a page's HISTORY record correctly (or at all) should not be editing WP. But, of course, WP lets anyone edit, even those who could not be bothered to look up something as simple as who wrote what. Meanwhile, in another forum, a propsective editor of this page claimed that because my husband and i use the same broadband account (well, duh, we live on the same 2 1/2 acre property, although we have 7 different networked computers in a total of 5 different offices in 2 different buildings -- and we never work at each others' computers at all), that somehow i was responsible for his writing, and implied in more than one forum that we were sockpuppeting. This is equally daft, as anyone would know, who was a writer married to another writer, which the editors here evidently are not. But, of course, when speaking of editors here, we are speaking of folks so deft with prose that one of them wrote, and the other edited, a page claiming that Chinese Taoism might have been created by a trio of anonymous mystical writers of the Edwardian era. The mind boggles. Catherineyronwode 05:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Dan,
Please read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. catherine's web page is unpublished original research and cannot be used. I have no objection to expansion on the topic itself, but the citation will have to be to a published book, not a web source. Also, please note that per WP:WEASEL, phrases like "some people have said" are not permitted. To introduce the material about Crowley's alleged gender-bias, you will need to find a reliable book reference to back it up and mention the author's name and what s/he said about the topic.
- 999 13:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with the A.C. quotes is that you are projecting an interpretation onto them. Another solution would be to start a quotes section, with a section on quotes about women, and let the quotes stand on their own w/o attempting to tell the reader what you (or some other unpublished person) think they mean. WP doesn't allow us to interpret the data, but only to cite the published interpretations of others. - 999 15:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm refering to such interpretation as the influence of his failed marriage and other projections of the editor. That is speculation about the reasons and influences that account for his statements and is original research. Similarly, putting the statements under the heading "gender-bias" without a third-party source that uses the term is interpretation. The same material under the heading "Crowley's attitude towards women" might be considered much more acceptible; it does not lead the reader toward conclusions of the editor not otherwise documented in a third-party source. I'd recommend splitting the the section into two parts, one on racism and anti-Semitism, which is adequately documented, and another on his attitudes toward woman, documented in his own words without leading the reader or imposing an interpretation not found in any citable third-party source. - 999 16:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
On indentation, please see WP:TALK: rather than walking across the page, it is recommended that each incoming voice take the next indentation level, then maintain it. I've put my indentation back and corrected yours.
I have reinserted most of the sexism material back into the article. I think I agree with you on the headings: a simple Drugs, Racism and Sexism in that order would be preferable to my last edit. Agree? - 999 16:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Come on, even you must be able to see how unwieldy walking across the page gets. The reference I meant to cite is Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Layout. That's one problem on WP, you get used to something being somewhere, then it gets moved :-( - 999 16:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
To quote:
I don't know what the point of the section with this title is. Shouldn't it be integrated into his biography or something? Text preserved below....
Well, possibly someone intended to use the play as an example of Crowley's relationship with women. (Someone certainly entitled that section "Women".) If so, we could move the gender-bias controversy bit to that section. But if nobody can find an NPOV way to do this, I don't know if the Susan Strong material even belongs in the article. Dan 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Citation number 10, is a quote from Robert Anton Wilsons fiction book Cosmic Trigger:The Final Secret of the Illuminati, p. 62 . Now, as far as I knew, fiction books are not to be used, so why is it being used. Anyone? Zos 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
After adding the only citation in this section, I began thinking...AC's bio is in no way chronological. I think it needs a complete re-write. Here are a few examples:
Actually, Crowley also asserted that someone he met in Mexico (who he called Don Jesus Medina) granted him accelerated Masonic initiation into the 33rd degree of Scottish rite free-masonry at the start of the 20th century. Sutin passes on this claim. We don't know if it happened or not. (We do know, however, that Mathers granted him accelarated initiation into the Golden Dawn Second Order, and that people often had strong good or bad reactions to Crowley.) I doubt anyone "duped" him into anything here. He thought he knew a better form of Freemasonry than many who used the term, having rediscovered an important secret. See the story of Reuss, The Book of Lies and the O.T.O. In other words, he may disagree with your view of what Masonry means. I agree that the article should at least describe the controversy. As for the introduction, I don't know what definition of "Freemason" we want to use or, for that matter, what you mean by calling a person "discredited". Dan 21:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Besides income from his known occupations..., are there any more evidences of him having any other livelyhoods? I remember he might have called himself the "Fishmonger", did he do work at the markets, In some my fancies I've had, that he could have worked say at a "Expresso Island/Newstand" or maybe at a habidashery or book shop during slow or tough periods in his youth or later in his career. Maybe as an Agent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.77 ( talk) 05:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
You could have at least moved my cited statement to another location in the article. Seeing as how the bio section is small and not very chronological, and there is no misc. section anymore...where am I supposed to put it? If this is the case, then the wickedest man in the world statement needs to be moved as well (it came later in life). Zos 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt the Thelema section in this article focus more on the Abbey of Thelema? There is already a main page for Thelema's philosophy. How is this contributing to his bio? I've mentioned before that this section might need to be moved to its main page, for space issues, yet now, since this is Crowleys "life" or biography, it seems like the thelema section isnt supporting any of it. Zos 17:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An Anon user put alot of info on the article, in the wrong place, and didnt cite it. I've removed it here until sources are found, and can be integrated into the article.
Beastly child
Baptised Edward Alexander but known as Aleister, the young Crowley was born into a family of staunch Plymouth Brethren, a puritanical Christian sect. He was taught that God was all powerful and that the sins of the flesh would be punished in the fires of hell. For the young Crowley, free will was not an option.
When Aleister was 11, his father died and the boy's feelings towards the church, and his family, turned to hate. He labelled the Plymouth Brethren a 'detestable crew', and it became clear that Crowley was not growing up to be the son his mother had dreamt of when he was caught torturing a cat to test if it had nine lives.
In his early teens, Crowley's mother caught him masturbating and in disgust called him 'the beast'. Far from being ashamed, however, Crowley adopted the name. At 14, as a way of punishing her, he had sex with a maid on her bed. This marked the beginning of Crowley's sexual life and he was forced to leave many schools, on one occasion because he had caught gonorrhoea from a prostitute.
Occult practices
In 1895, Crowley attended Cambridge University and began to publish sexually explicit poetry. A year later, however, a trust fund which had been set up after the death of his father matured, and, freed from dependence on his family, Crowley left university. Three years later, Crowley was initiated into a society called the Golden Dawn, which taught magic, alchemy and tarot. Taking the name Frater Perdurabo (Latin for 'I will endure'), he rose quickly through their ranks.
Over the next few years he travelled extensively and immersed himself in the occult, eventually growing irritated with the members of the Golden Dawn because he felt they were not taking magic seriously enough. Desperate to perform an extreme ritual, Crowley bought a house, Boleskine, in Loch Ness.
Once there, he set about performing the Abra-Melin, a high-magic ritual dating from the 14th century. The purpose of this ritual was to have a conversation with the 'higher self', or Holy Guardian Angel. It took six months, and such was its power that nobody had attempted it for centuries. Halfway through this dangerous ritual, however, Crowley met a young society lady named Rose Kelly – and a day later they were married. The Abra-Melin was forgotten and the newlyweds went on their honeymoon to Egypt.
Triumph of the will
In Egypt, between intense sex sessions with Rose, Crowley practised more black-magic rituals to impress her. Deep within the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid he recited the preliminary invocation of the occult ritual called Goetia. It had unexpected consequences.
Rose, who had previously known nothing of the occult, began to chant. In a trance, she repeated 'They are waiting for you' over and over. Crowley was irritated and sceptical of his new wife and her previously hidden clairvoyant skills but she went on to tell him that he had offended the Egyptian god Horus by not finishing the Abra-Melin. Crowley quickly set about an invocation, and a strange voice identifying itself as Aiwass began to speak in their hotel room.
For three days, between the hour of midday and 1pm, Aiwass spoke and Crowley wrote. The result was The Book of Laws. Believing himself to be the messiah of a new epoch, Crowley swore that he would perform depraved acts and learn to love them. Christianity was dead, he declared. His new religion had one all-powerful doctrine: 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' Free will, denied to Crowley as a child, had now become all powerful.
Magick and sex
While in Egypt, Rose found out that she was pregnant and later gave birth to a daughter, Lola Zaza. Later, on a trek in Vietnam, Crowley abandoned them both, however, and his daughter died of typhoid – a tragedy that Crowley blamed on Rose and her increasing alcoholism. Left alone in grief, she descended into madness. She would not be the last lover of his to do so, nor was Lola Zaza the only child of his to die.
Crowley penetrated deeper into the world of the occult, taking another lover, this time the male writer Victor Neuberg. Together they travelled to Algeria and the Sahara to perform an Enochian ritual to summon up Chorizon, the demon of the abyss. This rite is said to open the gates of hell.
Eventually, like Rose before him, Neuberg was left psychologically ruined. For Crowley their time together was more productive, however. His intense sex sessions with Neuberg had convinced him of the power of sex magick. From then, his two obsessions were married: sex and the occult.
Treason and depravity
Crowley went on to become the world head of the Ordo Templi Orientis, or Order of the Eastern Temple, and he further defined his own religion, Thelema.
After the outbreak of the First World War, Crowley was rejected by the British intelligence service and – in a huff – turned to the Germans, supporting them by writing anti-British propaganda. This made him an outcast in Britain and in 1920, two years after the war ended, he went to Cefalu in northern Sicily and created a temple in an old farmhouse with his new mistress Leah Hirsig. They had a child together, and under the influence of opium and cocaine they founded a new religious cult.
Stories of depraved sexual acts at the abbey quickly began to circulate, one of the most notorious involving Leah. A goat was sacrificed while penetrating her. She, and many others, were becoming severely unbalanced and addicted to drugs, and Crowley himself was increasingly dependent on heroin and cocaine. In this environment, Crowley and Hirsig's child died. She had a nervous breakdown.
Decay and disillusion
The end of the Abbey came when Raoul Loveday, one of Crowley's disciples, died after drinking the blood of a cat. Mortified, his wife Betty May fled back to England and sold her story to the press. The British media immediately dubbed Crowley 'the wickedest man in the world'. The temple was disbanded and many of Crowley's former disciples went mad or committed suicide. Leah Hirsig turned to prostitution. Finally, in 1923, a year after Crowley published his Diary of a Drug Fiend, Benito Mussolini, the Italian dictator, had him deported.
Crowley went on to publish more books – such as Magick: In theory and practice and his Confessions – but his reputation had been damaged. As the years passed he began losing touch with reality. He spent his final years penniless, a sad figure living on the favours of friends. A chronic heroin addict, he died in Hastings in 1947, disillusioned and questioning the philosophies he built to escape his repressed Christian upbringing.
In his own words
'I have successfully eliminated the danger of obsession by sexual ideas in this way: I refuse to admit that it is the fundamental truth. Science in failing to follow me so far has destroyed the idea of religion and the claim of mankind to be essentially different from other mammalia. The demonstration of anthropologists that all religious rites are celebrations of the reproductive energy of nature is irrefutable; but I, accepting this, can still maintain that these rites are wholly spiritual. Their form is only sexual because the phenomena of reproduction are the most universally understood and pungently appreciated of all. I believe that when this position is generally accepted, mankind will be able to go back with a good conscience to ceremonial worship. I have myself constructed numerous ceremonies where it is frankly admitted that religious enthusiasm is primarily sexual in character.
I have merely refused to stop there. I have insisted that sexual excitement is merely a degraded form of divine ecstasy. I have thus harnessed the wild horses of human passion to the chariot of the Spiritual Sun. I have given these horses wings that mankind may no longer travel painfully upon the earth, shaken by every irregularity of the surface, but course at large through the boundless ether. This is not merely a matter of actual ceremonies; I insist that in private life men should not admit their passions to be an end, indulging them and so degrading themselves to the level of the other animals, or suppressing them and creating neuroses. I insist that every thought, word and deed should be consciously devoted to the service of the Great Work. "Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink, do all to the glory of God."'
Aside from the anon user's additions, and getting back to the original bio section, I'd like to request some citations. I wont remove the content from the article just yet, but will address them here first. If no citations are given within a reasonable amount of time (a few days or so), I'll remove it. I'm also awaiting a few bio-books on Crowley to come via mail, so this is in an iterest of good faith here, as I have already removed uncited material and replaced it with citations in the early years and mystical begginings section.
(early years section)
(golden dawn section)
(thelema section)
be put onto this article soon). Zos 19:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This may be minor points to some but just wanted to throw them out there. First, since Crowley was in many ways a pretty dedicated Drug addict one could point out that he supported the view that drugs were a useful technique towards religious experience. As such placing the section on his Drug use in the controversy section right above the sections on Sexism and Racism seems to simplify his drug and condemn it as being ultimately "wrong." Second, the section on sexism is comprised entirely of quotes from Sutin's book and what both the section & book don't clearly point out, is that regardless of Crowley's personal hangups, his legacy (i.e. Thelema) is quite egalitarian. Worlock93
Just a thought, but does anyone but me feel we can leave out the header "Mystical Beginnings" and just move that content to "Early years"? It seems a bit off, seeing as how his true mystical beginnings were from the Golden Dawn on. For as 2-3 sources are already saying to me, that he didnt know much of anything until he met Julian Baker and was prompted to join him in meeting wither G. Cecil Jone or Mathers. I'm not sure if reading a few books and proposing that you are an expert in alchemy constitutes as mystical beginnings. Zos 16:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this (partial)quote from the entry: "I had read in some book or other that the most favourable name for becoming famous was one consisting of a dactyl followed by a spondee, as at the end of a hexameter: like 'Jeremy Taylor.' Aleister Crowley fulfilled these conditions ...."[25] "Crowley" would appear to me to be a trochee, not a spondee, as would "Taylor." I'm not sure how this (or if this) should be addressed in the article. Llysse ( talk) 21:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm having a discussion over at the Wikipedia:Featured articles talk page. Once we get this page looking good, I'm gonna nominate it for a featured article (this one, the Golden Dawn, and more than likely, the Ordo Templi Orientis article), so we can get a category there. This will open it up so we can nominate more article realting to Magick and the Occult. Anyone can help by reviewing the Wikipedia:The perfect article page and following it. Zos 18:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a checklist for "A perfect Wikipedia article"...
c) 15:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC) c) 19:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I merged everything but the first two paragraphs into the Works of Aleister Crowley article? I'm trying to think of a few ways to shorten the article a bit and removing redundant info is always the easiest. --- J.S ( t| c) 20:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I gather from the second part of this that you actually know better, and didn't actually mean to identify Thelema's influence on his life with the Abbey of Thelema. Dan 03:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh god. I just realized I cant find when Crowley actually joined OTO, just when he became head of the British section. Anyone have any sources for Crowley and the OTO? I guess I'll just start on A:.A:. for now. Zos 03:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In 1910, while visiting Britain, Reuss had admitted Crowley into the OTO, although Crowley appears to have has little to do with it until probably 1913, when Reuss paid him a visit in London and, producing a copy of The Book of Lies, accused him of revealing in its pages the secrets of the OTO 9th Grade, which concerned sexual magic.
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Geoff Capp 11:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Interesting is that their is no metioning of his political influence As the teachers of A. Hitler where close pupiles of his teaching, and if one reads the ideas of Hiler the connection becomes quite clear. Not metioned is too that he influenced too the foundation of the Scientology sect The connection is easaly made if you check the religiouse believe of scientology and the believe of the group around Hitler.The Thule group and its sucsessor the inner SS, It's basicly the same. Johann just as comment
Hey, you all. I'm going to take a shot at adding some citations here. Unless someone stops me. - Zeno Izen 01:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JValenc1"
Figured I'd bring the conversation here... --- J.S ( t| c) 20:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm of a mind to simply erase the entire thing. It's all talking about the OTO and freemasons... nothing quoted suggests there is any kind of debate about AC's membership in the masons. (Just because OTO isn't a part of the masons doesn't mean AC wasn't a member himself.) Synergy, you've gotta help me here... does that biography say, implicitly, that AC is a mason? --- J.S ( t| c) 04:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Aleister Crowley being an actual Freemason is up for debate. It has been said that he is a Freemason, however [Freemasonry] is an entire organization in itself. Aleister Crowley is known to have been in the Golden Knights and O.T.O.
“Through his mountaineering contacts, Crowley made contact with members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, an occult secret society. The Golden Dawn was an offshoot of the Freemasons, borrowing liberally from that order's initiation practices and layering on a hodge-podge of mysticism and ritual magic borrowed from a wide variety of influences.” Source: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/
“O.T.O. is an offshoot of Freemasonry. The Ordo Templi Orientis (the Oriental Order of the Templars). Unlike the Masons, the OTO would allow women as members. Otherwise, at this stage, the organization was fairly similar to the Masons, and the inner circle of OTO leadership had advanced Masonic degrees as a job requirement.” Source: http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/oto/
“Fringe Masonry existed. By examining it in a rational manner and in the context of its time we can defuse it and render it worthless as a weapon of attack on mainstream Freemasonry.”
John Hamill. Transactions of Quatuor Coronati Lodge. Vol. 109. p. 214.
“Fringe Masonry encompasses those regular freemasons whose interest in mysticism and the occult led them to such organizations as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD) and the Ordo Templi Orientis. Neither of these organizations was ever recognized by any regular masonic body. The Golden Dawn had no masonic pretensions but the fact that the founders of the OTO made such claims opened it to accusations of being clandestine or irregular Freemasonry. Since 1919 (Equinox Vol. III, No. 1) they ceased to claim being or having any authority regarding Freemasonry. Currently most masonic Grand Lodge jurisdictions are unaware of, or indifferent to, the existence or history of the OTO.
It must be stressed that although Freemasonry recognizes many of these men as freemasons, no recognized masonic body, and few freemasons, endorse their opinions and conclusions as an accepted extension or interpretation of the teachings of Freemasonry. Their published works have had no positive or lasting impact on Freemasonry. In fact their writings are more often quoted, out of context, by anti-masons attempting to link masonic teachings with these individuals' opinions.
These authors do not, in any fashion, represent the teachings or beliefs of recognized Freemasonry.”
Source: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/esoterica/index.html
Writings section is a bit of a problem atm. It has a "main article" link and then it proceeds to a whole page of text on the subject. The stuff in this article is well done, but most of it needs to be merged over-to the other article in my estimation. Anyone up to the task? --- J.S ( t| c) 05:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I remember hearing at one point (I thought it was in one of his own works) that Corwley had crossed the Himalayas twice, the first time eating his entire crew... is this rumor or at least somewhat factual? Thanks — Memotype:: T 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Lots of Authors/Poets active in Northern California - Bohemian Club - Did he visit? Lodge Visits in CA and BC - any paths to retrace? How many visits? Wrote poem "Big Trees" about the Redwoods. Was this After Hawaii? or Later? And something about an Coastal Island here? and LAM? and Pasadena visits? with Hubbard Parsons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 09:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the intro, the article calls crowley a chess master, but in the chess section, it never says conclusively that he actually attained master level. In fact, it implies that he gave it up just before reaching it... how about some clarification? — Memotype:: T 13:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
He claims to have won two matches concurrently while blindfolded in bio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 06:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge a chess master is merely a term for someone who is a very skilled player, and doesn't imply any sort of official qualification or specific standard.
[Crowley]published numerous poems and tracts combining pagan religious themes with sexual imagery both heterosexual and homosexual, as well as pederastic
That is a fabrication. Though paederastic poetry was common and indeed occasionally ubiquitous in England in the period from the later Nineteenth to the middle Twentieth Centuries, Crowley himself never created any work, to my knowledge, which could be construed as paederastic. Homosexual, yes - or, more correctly, bisexual - and though some there are who strive to conflate the homosexuality with paederasty, the latter does not feature in Crowley's opus. Nuttyskin 22:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
alister crowly was a mason a evil man [Neil Gaiman] references him directly in the very first issue of Sandman, where he imprisons the titular hero through "black magick".
Rubbish. In issue one of Sandman, he is imprisoned by a fictional character named Roderick Burgess. On page four, Burgess says "After tonight I'd like to see Aleister and his friends try to make fun of me!" So not only is he not Crowley, he is not meant to represent him as Crowley clearly exists in the universe portrayed in the comic book.
Accordingly, I have removed the line. Pearce.duncan 03:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but the few paragraphs in the popular culture section beg to be put in list form. The reason I say this is because it will jump from reference to reference without trying to group them together in some fashion. It makes the whole section seem discombobulated.
And since there is a very detailed related page that does group the instances together, why not just leave the link to the sub-section and shorten the article length? -- Mr Vain 14:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added a brief summary that should suffice as a placeholder until someone can come up with something better. Justin Eiler 20:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, what happened when he died? Was he buried or cremated. Cremated where? Buried where? Where were the ashes taken? Where are they now? This sort of thing needs to be in this article, can anyone help expand the section on his death? I ask because I also found this: his ashes were either buried under a tree or scattered among trees on a friend's estate in Hampton, New Jersey, depending on whom one believes. [9] FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Mary d'Este Sturges Mary Desti Mary Estelle Dempsey, Mother of Preston Sturges
Marchesa Luisa Casati
Mary Cunard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.91 ( talk) 21:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
others ...
When Rudolf Hess was captured in Scotland, Navel Intelligence officer and author of James Bond, Ian Flemming, suggests that Crowley interrogate Hess because Hess was an occultist and supporter of Astrology (this is widely known) but Churchill rejected the suggestion. Please someone who can write better than me please add this into the article on Aleister Crowley. FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Was it Hess who Crowley met with in Egypt, or List? In news articles H.Rider-Haggard or Bulwer-Lytton was there in Eygypt at same time - among others? Caliph Vizier Crowley? Eqyptian Newspaper Roses' Lime Water
And please confine trash like this to the talk pages, not to the article: If Crowley died alone in his room then there is no way to know the last thing he said. And he was not penniless as you may think but not as wealthy as in his youth. Crowley had kicked the habit of heroin but in his last years he was forced to take it because of the deterioration of his asthma. Carsonc 01:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
FK0071a, could you please give a citation for Ian Fleming's accusation. -- Harpakhrad11 19:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Independent researchers recently confirmed persistent rumors that Bill Gates is a devote Crowley's disciple. They found an alarming resemblance of Microsoft Office Mac OS icons and Hebrew glyphs Microsoft Office#Illuminati. This correspondence proves that Mr. Gates takes part in coding and programming of consensus reality. And this project is, uncharacteristically enough, is an open source one – as any member of occult community could participate in the project, using such classical sources as 777 and other Qabalistic writings of Aleister Crowley.
— Aleister Crowley, Taken from article.
I'd pay a nickle to see a source for that. :) --- J.S ( t| c) 17:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi:
Why is the photograph called infamous? What is the controversy surrounding it?
Zoso redirects to Zeppelin 4, which says it traces back to Crowley? How? Mathiastck 06:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Z0.-f-.0 has been said to be an alchemical sign for Amber or electrum of some form - no refs
Hi Everyone :) I have been a long-time student of Crowley's work and I love everything that is being done with his page. I wonder though, why I see no mention of meditation? The first part of Book 4 is soley focused on meditation. Many of the Libers and exercises from the equinox are likewise. He wrote "8 lectures on Yoga" as some of his later work. It seems unbalanced to have so much talk of magic and so little talk of meditation. Didn't he write about how magick and meditation are inseperable, that it is always preferable to do both? Anyways, thanks again for the awesome work.<3 (+my2cents) Captain Barrett 04:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I run a website devoted to the legacy of Aleister Crowley and which has for twelve years been home to The Aleister Crowley Society. I noted that the Links on this article were generally poor: ill-researched and partisan sites. I therefore posted a link to the non-commercial site I own (LAShTAL.COM), which is considered non-partisan and definitive. The response within hours was an anonymous edit:
07:08, 12 February 2007 217.10.142.170 (Talk) (→External links - remove link added by site owner in violation of spamming policy)
I have no desire to turn this into a squabble, but would appreciate some guidance. Can this really be considered "spamming"? Lashtal.com 00:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aleister Crowley in popular culture. As that debate may have an impact on this article (particularly when people propose merging), I thought it would be only fair that the editors of this page be made aware of the debate. Mango juice talk 14:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that he wrote some books detailing how to do all sorts of magical things, except some of the recipes instead of having the required effect, would explode or do something just as dangerous. According to the story a man tried to make a homunculus by Crowley's recipe, only succeeding in killing himself in the resulting explosion, long after Crowley's own death. Anyone heard of this as well? Tainted Deity 15:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
That Jack Parsons fellow seems to fit in nicely with what I have heard. I guess it is an unconfirmable rumour. Tainted Deity 15:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think we can find a better place for the section on Ouija boards? Judging by the article itself, they don't seem all that important to Crowley's work. The Ouija article has significantly less text than this one, which may leave out more important matters about yoga (see previous discussion). Maybe we should move the whole section there. Suggestions? Threats? Dan 00:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
"...the first syllable sounding like "crow" in English..." is is surprising to me. I have never heard anyone pronounce his name like this. Also, I know people with an identical surname and they do not pronounce the first syllable like the English word 'crow'. I thought the 'o' in Crowley is more like the English word 'our'? Without, prehaps the accent some people give to the 'r' (I could not think of a better example off the top of my head). PyrE 11:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sorry to be blunt but, who the world thought they were benefiting wikipedia by removing the 2 pictures of Crowley as an old man? It seems this was a wanton act with no reason behind whatsoever. I'm going to asume that it was VANDALISM and not the work of a overzealouse mod. Now can someone find the old pictures and out them back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.130.215 ( talk) 01:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
While reading the article on Aleister Crowley I came across the following sentence, followed by a "citation needed" sign, exactly as shown below:
He objected to the labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful".[citation needed]
I don't know if I have misunderstood the reason for including the "citation needed" note? However, I would have thought that Crowley's objection to 'labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' was so well known as to need no citation whatsoever. Having read even a fraction of his "Confessions" I would say that his objection to 'the labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' was very nearly the most obvious thing about him. This is the man who, when informed of the death of Queen Victoria, joined with his companion of the moment, in throwing his hat in the air and performing a war dance. He saw Queen Victoria as a symbol of repression and he saw her death as cause for celebration. This is the man who gave the world that well known saying: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"! Can Crowley's objection to 'labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' seriously be in need of a citation? If it can, then please may I be permitted to cite: Every single thing he has ever written?
Richard Gillard 23:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
On the radio talk show A View From Space, November 11, 2007, Toronto talk show host "Spaceman" Gary Bell relays about the mother of the former first lady, Pauline, that nine months prior to the birth of her third child she was in France:
__ meco 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I read the story also. Is it a true story, or a gossip simply. Nmate ( talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
speculate - but I think the story came out on an April 1st —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 08:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
i think that it should be put on that the ozzy osbourne song mr.crowley is based on aleister crowley. he wrote the song when he found a deck of tarot cards designed by crowley in the studio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.34.159 ( talk) 04:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
that is an absurd suggestion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.127.174.141 ( talk) 20:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There should at least be a section on 'Crowley in Popular culture' - e.g. the cover of 'Sergeant Pepper', the character of Mocata in Dennis Wheatley's 'The Devil Rides Out', Ozzy Osbourne's 'Mister Crowley', David Bowie's 'Quicksand'. 90.193.44.230 ( talk) 09:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There should definitely be a link back to Mr. Crowley from this article. It's the only way a lot of people have heard of him. A pop culture section seems appropriate to me. -- Bilbo1507 ( talk) 20:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
I've removed all the 'fact' tags and locked the page. Please work out your disagreements here. Tom Harrison Talk 13:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Catherine also deleted my reference to AC's remembered past life as Ko Hsuan, which seems eminently relevant to the question of his racial views about the Chinese. I also wanted to add more about his views on India. The article says he thought Britain conquered them by "moral superiority", which seems frankly dishonest considering what he wrote before that (still in Confessions Ch 34):
and
Dan 22:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Amazon.com now has a "search in book" option for almost all of their books - notably including most of those by and about Crowley. I wouldn't recommend using these online versions as cites, but this feature gives you the ability to do virtually unlimited text searches in these book - which you can then use to find relevant passages in your hardcopies. It's like the ultimate index. Psuliin 06:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know if AC actually did publish "vicious denouncements of the people whose cultures had produced" the teachings he stole, at least not in any way that would contradict his respect for foreign teachings and teachers. Allow me to explain. First, he does not call Indians "inferior animals" as the paragraph suggests. He puts that phrase in the mouth of others and suggests that he considers it dishonest or foolish: To begin with, they cannot stand the climate, which compels them to live lives whose inevitable tendency is to relax the moral fibre. Thus even highclass memsahibs sometimes have themselves bathed by their beras. The excuse is that any sexual irregularity with such inferior animals is unthinkable. [1] I've already reproduced the context for this passage and the article's misleading isolated quote about "moral superiority". We don't know if he meant what he said, or offered some or all of it as a Modest Proposal to people who wanted to keep ruling India, but we do know he explicitly rejected the 'white man's burden' garbage about bringing our superior culture to that subcontinent. Second, the following quotes on the subject of Jews and Chinese (from the pages that the article cites as evidence of "racist statements") do not seem racist in the original sense of calling one race inherently or uniformly better than another. Not one of them blames the alleged negative traits on genetics. Instead they mention cultural factors, specifically the effects of suffering and oppression:
and
All of that belongs in the article. (On the other hand, we don't need Sutin to tell us that AC slanderously accused Jews of child-murder in Book Four. That work appears online, bigotry and all.) Meanwhile, I could make a case that AC held racist beliefs about blacks. But I don't think the words "Black School" or "Black masters" belong in the article unless we explain what he could have meant (see here and here), which would take rather a lot of space. Dan 21:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Accordingly, I've moved the following italicised paragraph from the article and tried to rephrase some other parts in objectively verifiable terms. The first sentence of that section still needs work; I'll see if I can find Sutin actually using the word "racist". We probably want to mention his arguments about India, but I don't have time to put it together now (see previous talk section). Dan 06:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
His expressions of chauvinistic nationalism included the belief that the British military conquest of India had been won not by superior technology, but "by sheer moral superiority" [1] His ideas concerning white supremacism and racial purity were such that he declared that male Indian students should not be allowed into Britain because they might have sex with British women [2]. He likewise felt it was a mistake to allow British "white women" to live in India, where they might intermarry with Indians, [3].
While I think it important to discuss the apparent examples of Anti-Semitism and Racism in Crowleys work, and indeed it is wrong (in my opinion) to defend such attitudes, we must be careful to frame these sort of remarks with context. Were these an attitude of the times in mainstream British society? Afterall, The poetry of T.S Eliot and Ezra Pound, two of the Twentieth Century's most celebrated poets features examples of apparent Anti-Semitism which would today seem shocking to many people, as they can seem very aggressive attacks. T.S. Eliot however seemed to be oblivious to this and indeed had Jewish friends despite this aspect of his work and and Ezra Pound was famously involved with the British facists. Pound later apologised. Anyway, returning to my point, is it not feasible that people seize on Crowley's racist views simply because he is Aleister Crowley, whereas we are more than happy to forgive T.S Eliot? I'm concerned that these aspects have been raised with the intention of defemating his character. We must try, I think, to put them into a wider context without apologising for them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.39.155.142 ( talk • contribs).
Oh and off topic, check out the Talk:Golden_Dawn_tradition page! Zos 23:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Here's another quote that people might want to consider in discussing Crowley's "anti-semitism." It's cited by Kaczynski (Perdurabo, page 415), from a letter that Crowley wrote to a member of the OTO in Germany. He wrote:
This should be added to other quotes that I see already cited here in balancing the view Cat wishes to present of Crowley as a rabid racist and anti-semite. The truth, based on Crowley's writings (and the fact that his secretary and student, Regardie, was Jewish), is clearly more complex than that. I've been pushing for recognition of that complexity ever since Cat started her campaign, and it seems that we now have the materials needed to make the case. Here's what I would suggest:
First, put Crowley's racial attitudes in their cultural and historical context. Racism, as a concept, was barely coming into vogue during Crowley's lifetime, and racial attitudes that would offend modern sensibilities were literally unremarkable among upper-class Edwardians. I'll find a source to cite on this.
Second, note the way that Crowley's attitudes vary in his writings - and particularly how they change over the years. Cat has provided more than adequate sourcing for one aspect, and we now have others. I think the best way to present this information is chronologically, to show the development in Crowley's views.
Third, let's try to come up with some reason why the reader should care about all of this. The fact that Crowley evinced attitudes consistent with his time and place is no more remarkable than the fact that Tacitus writes disparagingly about Christians. However there are critics who use Crowley's personal beliefs as ad hominen arguments about his work and legacy - as though they had some sort of relevance to the validity of Thelema. I think we can say something in the article along these lines: "Crowley's racial attitudes are controversial to modern readers, and have excited much comment among his critics. Those attitudes are complex, and changed over time." Then list 3-4 representative quotes from those we've collected, to show that development, and put it to bed.
What do you all think? Psuliin 06:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
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Geoff Capp 05:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)Here are a few things that need to be done on the article, as far as I can see.
I'm more than willing to discuss all of this, so we can get the page unlocked and fixed. Zos 19:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, note 3 would be better (as in, more complete, thus more checkable) as:
{{cite news |first = Horatio] |last = [Bottomley |url = http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/module-subjects-viewpage-pageid-18.phtml |title = The Wickedest Man In The World |work = John Bull |date = [[1923-03-24]] |accessdate = 2006-05-28 }}
This would show: [Bottomley, Horatio] (
1923-03-24).
"The Wickedest Man In The World". John Bull. Retrieved 2006-05-28. {{
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Also, for note 9, which is presently a bare reference:
{{cite book | last = Owen | first = Alex | authorlink = Alex Owen | title = The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern | accessdate = 2006-05-28 | edition = Hardcover | date = 2004-04-14 | publisher = U. Chicago Press | language = English | ISBN = 0226642011 | pages = 192 | chapter = Aleister Crowley in the Desert | chapterurl = http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/642011.html }}
Produces:
Owen, Alex (2004-04-14). "Aleister Crowley in the Desert". The Place of Enchantment: British Occultism and the Culture of the Modern (Hardcover ed.). U. Chicago Press. p. 192.
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I can, of course, make these changes myself once the article is unlocked, if there are no strenuous objections. Or, someone else can do it - I am not an edit counter. -- Geoff Capp 01:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I have no objections myself, but cannot speak for the other. I'd raher sources be cited as best as possible to allow readers the ability to properly fact check and is better all around for verifing. And yes the link to Abrahadabra needs to be changed as well. Not quite sure who did that. Zos 03:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
First off, shoud the RFC section have been archived? Perhaps it should be copied to this active talk page. The RfC was very recently filed at WP:RFC/POLICIES by Bearcat ( talk · contribs):
Secondly, I have found some independent, non-fiction sourcing for some of Crowley's disputed views. The following quotes are taken from:
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nothing appears in the sections on his travels I have had the chance to read, nor are there any index entires for "racism" or anything similar, aside from the entry for "anti-Semitic views" cited above. If I do find anything, I'll add it here.
Regarding the RfC proper, I support the view that general biographical material should appear in the main article for any given person, including Crowley, and that if the article becomes overlong, it is other sections that should be forked and summarized, as is currently the case with Thelema and Aleister Crowley in popular culture. -- Geoff Capp 00:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I've requested that this article be unprotected Here, seeing as how I was the one who supposedly caused it to be protected. Zos 03:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I shall not be contributing to this page or to WP again, but i do note that again some ill-informed pseudo-editor has attributed to me something i did not write, this time the section on "woman" (now "Susan Strong"). I did not write it. I simply got sufficiently annoyed with its totally off-topic title that i titled it properly. It is about a woman named "Susan Strong." It is not about women (plural). Frankly, a person who does not have the simple competence to read a page's HISTORY record correctly (or at all) should not be editing WP. But, of course, WP lets anyone edit, even those who could not be bothered to look up something as simple as who wrote what. Meanwhile, in another forum, a propsective editor of this page claimed that because my husband and i use the same broadband account (well, duh, we live on the same 2 1/2 acre property, although we have 7 different networked computers in a total of 5 different offices in 2 different buildings -- and we never work at each others' computers at all), that somehow i was responsible for his writing, and implied in more than one forum that we were sockpuppeting. This is equally daft, as anyone would know, who was a writer married to another writer, which the editors here evidently are not. But, of course, when speaking of editors here, we are speaking of folks so deft with prose that one of them wrote, and the other edited, a page claiming that Chinese Taoism might have been created by a trio of anonymous mystical writers of the Edwardian era. The mind boggles. Catherineyronwode 05:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Dan,
Please read WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR. catherine's web page is unpublished original research and cannot be used. I have no objection to expansion on the topic itself, but the citation will have to be to a published book, not a web source. Also, please note that per WP:WEASEL, phrases like "some people have said" are not permitted. To introduce the material about Crowley's alleged gender-bias, you will need to find a reliable book reference to back it up and mention the author's name and what s/he said about the topic.
- 999 13:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The problem with the A.C. quotes is that you are projecting an interpretation onto them. Another solution would be to start a quotes section, with a section on quotes about women, and let the quotes stand on their own w/o attempting to tell the reader what you (or some other unpublished person) think they mean. WP doesn't allow us to interpret the data, but only to cite the published interpretations of others. - 999 15:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm refering to such interpretation as the influence of his failed marriage and other projections of the editor. That is speculation about the reasons and influences that account for his statements and is original research. Similarly, putting the statements under the heading "gender-bias" without a third-party source that uses the term is interpretation. The same material under the heading "Crowley's attitude towards women" might be considered much more acceptible; it does not lead the reader toward conclusions of the editor not otherwise documented in a third-party source. I'd recommend splitting the the section into two parts, one on racism and anti-Semitism, which is adequately documented, and another on his attitudes toward woman, documented in his own words without leading the reader or imposing an interpretation not found in any citable third-party source. - 999 16:13, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
On indentation, please see WP:TALK: rather than walking across the page, it is recommended that each incoming voice take the next indentation level, then maintain it. I've put my indentation back and corrected yours.
I have reinserted most of the sexism material back into the article. I think I agree with you on the headings: a simple Drugs, Racism and Sexism in that order would be preferable to my last edit. Agree? - 999 16:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Come on, even you must be able to see how unwieldy walking across the page gets. The reference I meant to cite is Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Layout. That's one problem on WP, you get used to something being somewhere, then it gets moved :-( - 999 16:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
To quote:
I don't know what the point of the section with this title is. Shouldn't it be integrated into his biography or something? Text preserved below....
Well, possibly someone intended to use the play as an example of Crowley's relationship with women. (Someone certainly entitled that section "Women".) If so, we could move the gender-bias controversy bit to that section. But if nobody can find an NPOV way to do this, I don't know if the Susan Strong material even belongs in the article. Dan 16:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Citation number 10, is a quote from Robert Anton Wilsons fiction book Cosmic Trigger:The Final Secret of the Illuminati, p. 62 . Now, as far as I knew, fiction books are not to be used, so why is it being used. Anyone? Zos 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
After adding the only citation in this section, I began thinking...AC's bio is in no way chronological. I think it needs a complete re-write. Here are a few examples:
Actually, Crowley also asserted that someone he met in Mexico (who he called Don Jesus Medina) granted him accelerated Masonic initiation into the 33rd degree of Scottish rite free-masonry at the start of the 20th century. Sutin passes on this claim. We don't know if it happened or not. (We do know, however, that Mathers granted him accelarated initiation into the Golden Dawn Second Order, and that people often had strong good or bad reactions to Crowley.) I doubt anyone "duped" him into anything here. He thought he knew a better form of Freemasonry than many who used the term, having rediscovered an important secret. See the story of Reuss, The Book of Lies and the O.T.O. In other words, he may disagree with your view of what Masonry means. I agree that the article should at least describe the controversy. As for the introduction, I don't know what definition of "Freemason" we want to use or, for that matter, what you mean by calling a person "discredited". Dan 21:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Besides income from his known occupations..., are there any more evidences of him having any other livelyhoods? I remember he might have called himself the "Fishmonger", did he do work at the markets, In some my fancies I've had, that he could have worked say at a "Expresso Island/Newstand" or maybe at a habidashery or book shop during slow or tough periods in his youth or later in his career. Maybe as an Agent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.77 ( talk) 05:47, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
You could have at least moved my cited statement to another location in the article. Seeing as how the bio section is small and not very chronological, and there is no misc. section anymore...where am I supposed to put it? If this is the case, then the wickedest man in the world statement needs to be moved as well (it came later in life). Zos 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Shouldnt the Thelema section in this article focus more on the Abbey of Thelema? There is already a main page for Thelema's philosophy. How is this contributing to his bio? I've mentioned before that this section might need to be moved to its main page, for space issues, yet now, since this is Crowleys "life" or biography, it seems like the thelema section isnt supporting any of it. Zos 17:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
An Anon user put alot of info on the article, in the wrong place, and didnt cite it. I've removed it here until sources are found, and can be integrated into the article.
Beastly child
Baptised Edward Alexander but known as Aleister, the young Crowley was born into a family of staunch Plymouth Brethren, a puritanical Christian sect. He was taught that God was all powerful and that the sins of the flesh would be punished in the fires of hell. For the young Crowley, free will was not an option.
When Aleister was 11, his father died and the boy's feelings towards the church, and his family, turned to hate. He labelled the Plymouth Brethren a 'detestable crew', and it became clear that Crowley was not growing up to be the son his mother had dreamt of when he was caught torturing a cat to test if it had nine lives.
In his early teens, Crowley's mother caught him masturbating and in disgust called him 'the beast'. Far from being ashamed, however, Crowley adopted the name. At 14, as a way of punishing her, he had sex with a maid on her bed. This marked the beginning of Crowley's sexual life and he was forced to leave many schools, on one occasion because he had caught gonorrhoea from a prostitute.
Occult practices
In 1895, Crowley attended Cambridge University and began to publish sexually explicit poetry. A year later, however, a trust fund which had been set up after the death of his father matured, and, freed from dependence on his family, Crowley left university. Three years later, Crowley was initiated into a society called the Golden Dawn, which taught magic, alchemy and tarot. Taking the name Frater Perdurabo (Latin for 'I will endure'), he rose quickly through their ranks.
Over the next few years he travelled extensively and immersed himself in the occult, eventually growing irritated with the members of the Golden Dawn because he felt they were not taking magic seriously enough. Desperate to perform an extreme ritual, Crowley bought a house, Boleskine, in Loch Ness.
Once there, he set about performing the Abra-Melin, a high-magic ritual dating from the 14th century. The purpose of this ritual was to have a conversation with the 'higher self', or Holy Guardian Angel. It took six months, and such was its power that nobody had attempted it for centuries. Halfway through this dangerous ritual, however, Crowley met a young society lady named Rose Kelly – and a day later they were married. The Abra-Melin was forgotten and the newlyweds went on their honeymoon to Egypt.
Triumph of the will
In Egypt, between intense sex sessions with Rose, Crowley practised more black-magic rituals to impress her. Deep within the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid he recited the preliminary invocation of the occult ritual called Goetia. It had unexpected consequences.
Rose, who had previously known nothing of the occult, began to chant. In a trance, she repeated 'They are waiting for you' over and over. Crowley was irritated and sceptical of his new wife and her previously hidden clairvoyant skills but she went on to tell him that he had offended the Egyptian god Horus by not finishing the Abra-Melin. Crowley quickly set about an invocation, and a strange voice identifying itself as Aiwass began to speak in their hotel room.
For three days, between the hour of midday and 1pm, Aiwass spoke and Crowley wrote. The result was The Book of Laws. Believing himself to be the messiah of a new epoch, Crowley swore that he would perform depraved acts and learn to love them. Christianity was dead, he declared. His new religion had one all-powerful doctrine: 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' Free will, denied to Crowley as a child, had now become all powerful.
Magick and sex
While in Egypt, Rose found out that she was pregnant and later gave birth to a daughter, Lola Zaza. Later, on a trek in Vietnam, Crowley abandoned them both, however, and his daughter died of typhoid – a tragedy that Crowley blamed on Rose and her increasing alcoholism. Left alone in grief, she descended into madness. She would not be the last lover of his to do so, nor was Lola Zaza the only child of his to die.
Crowley penetrated deeper into the world of the occult, taking another lover, this time the male writer Victor Neuberg. Together they travelled to Algeria and the Sahara to perform an Enochian ritual to summon up Chorizon, the demon of the abyss. This rite is said to open the gates of hell.
Eventually, like Rose before him, Neuberg was left psychologically ruined. For Crowley their time together was more productive, however. His intense sex sessions with Neuberg had convinced him of the power of sex magick. From then, his two obsessions were married: sex and the occult.
Treason and depravity
Crowley went on to become the world head of the Ordo Templi Orientis, or Order of the Eastern Temple, and he further defined his own religion, Thelema.
After the outbreak of the First World War, Crowley was rejected by the British intelligence service and – in a huff – turned to the Germans, supporting them by writing anti-British propaganda. This made him an outcast in Britain and in 1920, two years after the war ended, he went to Cefalu in northern Sicily and created a temple in an old farmhouse with his new mistress Leah Hirsig. They had a child together, and under the influence of opium and cocaine they founded a new religious cult.
Stories of depraved sexual acts at the abbey quickly began to circulate, one of the most notorious involving Leah. A goat was sacrificed while penetrating her. She, and many others, were becoming severely unbalanced and addicted to drugs, and Crowley himself was increasingly dependent on heroin and cocaine. In this environment, Crowley and Hirsig's child died. She had a nervous breakdown.
Decay and disillusion
The end of the Abbey came when Raoul Loveday, one of Crowley's disciples, died after drinking the blood of a cat. Mortified, his wife Betty May fled back to England and sold her story to the press. The British media immediately dubbed Crowley 'the wickedest man in the world'. The temple was disbanded and many of Crowley's former disciples went mad or committed suicide. Leah Hirsig turned to prostitution. Finally, in 1923, a year after Crowley published his Diary of a Drug Fiend, Benito Mussolini, the Italian dictator, had him deported.
Crowley went on to publish more books – such as Magick: In theory and practice and his Confessions – but his reputation had been damaged. As the years passed he began losing touch with reality. He spent his final years penniless, a sad figure living on the favours of friends. A chronic heroin addict, he died in Hastings in 1947, disillusioned and questioning the philosophies he built to escape his repressed Christian upbringing.
In his own words
'I have successfully eliminated the danger of obsession by sexual ideas in this way: I refuse to admit that it is the fundamental truth. Science in failing to follow me so far has destroyed the idea of religion and the claim of mankind to be essentially different from other mammalia. The demonstration of anthropologists that all religious rites are celebrations of the reproductive energy of nature is irrefutable; but I, accepting this, can still maintain that these rites are wholly spiritual. Their form is only sexual because the phenomena of reproduction are the most universally understood and pungently appreciated of all. I believe that when this position is generally accepted, mankind will be able to go back with a good conscience to ceremonial worship. I have myself constructed numerous ceremonies where it is frankly admitted that religious enthusiasm is primarily sexual in character.
I have merely refused to stop there. I have insisted that sexual excitement is merely a degraded form of divine ecstasy. I have thus harnessed the wild horses of human passion to the chariot of the Spiritual Sun. I have given these horses wings that mankind may no longer travel painfully upon the earth, shaken by every irregularity of the surface, but course at large through the boundless ether. This is not merely a matter of actual ceremonies; I insist that in private life men should not admit their passions to be an end, indulging them and so degrading themselves to the level of the other animals, or suppressing them and creating neuroses. I insist that every thought, word and deed should be consciously devoted to the service of the Great Work. "Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink, do all to the glory of God."'
Aside from the anon user's additions, and getting back to the original bio section, I'd like to request some citations. I wont remove the content from the article just yet, but will address them here first. If no citations are given within a reasonable amount of time (a few days or so), I'll remove it. I'm also awaiting a few bio-books on Crowley to come via mail, so this is in an iterest of good faith here, as I have already removed uncited material and replaced it with citations in the early years and mystical begginings section.
(early years section)
(golden dawn section)
(thelema section)
be put onto this article soon). Zos 19:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
This may be minor points to some but just wanted to throw them out there. First, since Crowley was in many ways a pretty dedicated Drug addict one could point out that he supported the view that drugs were a useful technique towards religious experience. As such placing the section on his Drug use in the controversy section right above the sections on Sexism and Racism seems to simplify his drug and condemn it as being ultimately "wrong." Second, the section on sexism is comprised entirely of quotes from Sutin's book and what both the section & book don't clearly point out, is that regardless of Crowley's personal hangups, his legacy (i.e. Thelema) is quite egalitarian. Worlock93
Just a thought, but does anyone but me feel we can leave out the header "Mystical Beginnings" and just move that content to "Early years"? It seems a bit off, seeing as how his true mystical beginnings were from the Golden Dawn on. For as 2-3 sources are already saying to me, that he didnt know much of anything until he met Julian Baker and was prompted to join him in meeting wither G. Cecil Jone or Mathers. I'm not sure if reading a few books and proposing that you are an expert in alchemy constitutes as mystical beginnings. Zos 16:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Regarding this (partial)quote from the entry: "I had read in some book or other that the most favourable name for becoming famous was one consisting of a dactyl followed by a spondee, as at the end of a hexameter: like 'Jeremy Taylor.' Aleister Crowley fulfilled these conditions ...."[25] "Crowley" would appear to me to be a trochee, not a spondee, as would "Taylor." I'm not sure how this (or if this) should be addressed in the article. Llysse ( talk) 21:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm having a discussion over at the Wikipedia:Featured articles talk page. Once we get this page looking good, I'm gonna nominate it for a featured article (this one, the Golden Dawn, and more than likely, the Ordo Templi Orientis article), so we can get a category there. This will open it up so we can nominate more article realting to Magick and the Occult. Anyone can help by reviewing the Wikipedia:The perfect article page and following it. Zos 18:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's a checklist for "A perfect Wikipedia article"...
c) 15:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC) c) 19:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I merged everything but the first two paragraphs into the Works of Aleister Crowley article? I'm trying to think of a few ways to shorten the article a bit and removing redundant info is always the easiest. --- J.S ( t| c) 20:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I gather from the second part of this that you actually know better, and didn't actually mean to identify Thelema's influence on his life with the Abbey of Thelema. Dan 03:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh god. I just realized I cant find when Crowley actually joined OTO, just when he became head of the British section. Anyone have any sources for Crowley and the OTO? I guess I'll just start on A:.A:. for now. Zos 03:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In 1910, while visiting Britain, Reuss had admitted Crowley into the OTO, although Crowley appears to have has little to do with it until probably 1913, when Reuss paid him a visit in London and, producing a copy of The Book of Lies, accused him of revealing in its pages the secrets of the OTO 9th Grade, which concerned sexual magic.
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Geoff Capp 11:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Interesting is that their is no metioning of his political influence As the teachers of A. Hitler where close pupiles of his teaching, and if one reads the ideas of Hiler the connection becomes quite clear. Not metioned is too that he influenced too the foundation of the Scientology sect The connection is easaly made if you check the religiouse believe of scientology and the believe of the group around Hitler.The Thule group and its sucsessor the inner SS, It's basicly the same. Johann just as comment
Hey, you all. I'm going to take a shot at adding some citations here. Unless someone stops me. - Zeno Izen 01:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JValenc1"
Figured I'd bring the conversation here... --- J.S ( t| c) 20:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm of a mind to simply erase the entire thing. It's all talking about the OTO and freemasons... nothing quoted suggests there is any kind of debate about AC's membership in the masons. (Just because OTO isn't a part of the masons doesn't mean AC wasn't a member himself.) Synergy, you've gotta help me here... does that biography say, implicitly, that AC is a mason? --- J.S ( t| c) 04:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Aleister Crowley being an actual Freemason is up for debate. It has been said that he is a Freemason, however [Freemasonry] is an entire organization in itself. Aleister Crowley is known to have been in the Golden Knights and O.T.O.
“Through his mountaineering contacts, Crowley made contact with members of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, an occult secret society. The Golden Dawn was an offshoot of the Freemasons, borrowing liberally from that order's initiation practices and layering on a hodge-podge of mysticism and ritual magic borrowed from a wide variety of influences.” Source: http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/
“O.T.O. is an offshoot of Freemasonry. The Ordo Templi Orientis (the Oriental Order of the Templars). Unlike the Masons, the OTO would allow women as members. Otherwise, at this stage, the organization was fairly similar to the Masons, and the inner circle of OTO leadership had advanced Masonic degrees as a job requirement.” Source: http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/oto/
“Fringe Masonry existed. By examining it in a rational manner and in the context of its time we can defuse it and render it worthless as a weapon of attack on mainstream Freemasonry.”
John Hamill. Transactions of Quatuor Coronati Lodge. Vol. 109. p. 214.
“Fringe Masonry encompasses those regular freemasons whose interest in mysticism and the occult led them to such organizations as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (HOGD) and the Ordo Templi Orientis. Neither of these organizations was ever recognized by any regular masonic body. The Golden Dawn had no masonic pretensions but the fact that the founders of the OTO made such claims opened it to accusations of being clandestine or irregular Freemasonry. Since 1919 (Equinox Vol. III, No. 1) they ceased to claim being or having any authority regarding Freemasonry. Currently most masonic Grand Lodge jurisdictions are unaware of, or indifferent to, the existence or history of the OTO.
It must be stressed that although Freemasonry recognizes many of these men as freemasons, no recognized masonic body, and few freemasons, endorse their opinions and conclusions as an accepted extension or interpretation of the teachings of Freemasonry. Their published works have had no positive or lasting impact on Freemasonry. In fact their writings are more often quoted, out of context, by anti-masons attempting to link masonic teachings with these individuals' opinions.
These authors do not, in any fashion, represent the teachings or beliefs of recognized Freemasonry.”
Source: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/esoterica/index.html
Writings section is a bit of a problem atm. It has a "main article" link and then it proceeds to a whole page of text on the subject. The stuff in this article is well done, but most of it needs to be merged over-to the other article in my estimation. Anyone up to the task? --- J.S ( t| c) 05:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I remember hearing at one point (I thought it was in one of his own works) that Corwley had crossed the Himalayas twice, the first time eating his entire crew... is this rumor or at least somewhat factual? Thanks — Memotype:: T 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Lots of Authors/Poets active in Northern California - Bohemian Club - Did he visit? Lodge Visits in CA and BC - any paths to retrace? How many visits? Wrote poem "Big Trees" about the Redwoods. Was this After Hawaii? or Later? And something about an Coastal Island here? and LAM? and Pasadena visits? with Hubbard Parsons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 09:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
In the intro, the article calls crowley a chess master, but in the chess section, it never says conclusively that he actually attained master level. In fact, it implies that he gave it up just before reaching it... how about some clarification? — Memotype:: T 13:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
He claims to have won two matches concurrently while blindfolded in bio —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 06:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
To the best of my knowledge a chess master is merely a term for someone who is a very skilled player, and doesn't imply any sort of official qualification or specific standard.
[Crowley]published numerous poems and tracts combining pagan religious themes with sexual imagery both heterosexual and homosexual, as well as pederastic
That is a fabrication. Though paederastic poetry was common and indeed occasionally ubiquitous in England in the period from the later Nineteenth to the middle Twentieth Centuries, Crowley himself never created any work, to my knowledge, which could be construed as paederastic. Homosexual, yes - or, more correctly, bisexual - and though some there are who strive to conflate the homosexuality with paederasty, the latter does not feature in Crowley's opus. Nuttyskin 22:37, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
alister crowly was a mason a evil man [Neil Gaiman] references him directly in the very first issue of Sandman, where he imprisons the titular hero through "black magick".
Rubbish. In issue one of Sandman, he is imprisoned by a fictional character named Roderick Burgess. On page four, Burgess says "After tonight I'd like to see Aleister and his friends try to make fun of me!" So not only is he not Crowley, he is not meant to represent him as Crowley clearly exists in the universe portrayed in the comic book.
Accordingly, I have removed the line. Pearce.duncan 03:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but the few paragraphs in the popular culture section beg to be put in list form. The reason I say this is because it will jump from reference to reference without trying to group them together in some fashion. It makes the whole section seem discombobulated.
And since there is a very detailed related page that does group the instances together, why not just leave the link to the sub-section and shorten the article length? -- Mr Vain 14:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added a brief summary that should suffice as a placeholder until someone can come up with something better. Justin Eiler 20:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, what happened when he died? Was he buried or cremated. Cremated where? Buried where? Where were the ashes taken? Where are they now? This sort of thing needs to be in this article, can anyone help expand the section on his death? I ask because I also found this: his ashes were either buried under a tree or scattered among trees on a friend's estate in Hampton, New Jersey, depending on whom one believes. [9] FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Mary d'Este Sturges Mary Desti Mary Estelle Dempsey, Mother of Preston Sturges
Marchesa Luisa Casati
Mary Cunard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.43.91 ( talk) 21:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
others ...
When Rudolf Hess was captured in Scotland, Navel Intelligence officer and author of James Bond, Ian Flemming, suggests that Crowley interrogate Hess because Hess was an occultist and supporter of Astrology (this is widely known) but Churchill rejected the suggestion. Please someone who can write better than me please add this into the article on Aleister Crowley. FK0071a 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Was it Hess who Crowley met with in Egypt, or List? In news articles H.Rider-Haggard or Bulwer-Lytton was there in Eygypt at same time - among others? Caliph Vizier Crowley? Eqyptian Newspaper Roses' Lime Water
And please confine trash like this to the talk pages, not to the article: If Crowley died alone in his room then there is no way to know the last thing he said. And he was not penniless as you may think but not as wealthy as in his youth. Crowley had kicked the habit of heroin but in his last years he was forced to take it because of the deterioration of his asthma. Carsonc 01:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
FK0071a, could you please give a citation for Ian Fleming's accusation. -- Harpakhrad11 19:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Independent researchers recently confirmed persistent rumors that Bill Gates is a devote Crowley's disciple. They found an alarming resemblance of Microsoft Office Mac OS icons and Hebrew glyphs Microsoft Office#Illuminati. This correspondence proves that Mr. Gates takes part in coding and programming of consensus reality. And this project is, uncharacteristically enough, is an open source one – as any member of occult community could participate in the project, using such classical sources as 777 and other Qabalistic writings of Aleister Crowley.
— Aleister Crowley, Taken from article.
I'd pay a nickle to see a source for that. :) --- J.S ( t| c) 17:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi:
Why is the photograph called infamous? What is the controversy surrounding it?
Zoso redirects to Zeppelin 4, which says it traces back to Crowley? How? Mathiastck 06:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Z0.-f-.0 has been said to be an alchemical sign for Amber or electrum of some form - no refs
Hi Everyone :) I have been a long-time student of Crowley's work and I love everything that is being done with his page. I wonder though, why I see no mention of meditation? The first part of Book 4 is soley focused on meditation. Many of the Libers and exercises from the equinox are likewise. He wrote "8 lectures on Yoga" as some of his later work. It seems unbalanced to have so much talk of magic and so little talk of meditation. Didn't he write about how magick and meditation are inseperable, that it is always preferable to do both? Anyways, thanks again for the awesome work.<3 (+my2cents) Captain Barrett 04:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I run a website devoted to the legacy of Aleister Crowley and which has for twelve years been home to The Aleister Crowley Society. I noted that the Links on this article were generally poor: ill-researched and partisan sites. I therefore posted a link to the non-commercial site I own (LAShTAL.COM), which is considered non-partisan and definitive. The response within hours was an anonymous edit:
07:08, 12 February 2007 217.10.142.170 (Talk) (→External links - remove link added by site owner in violation of spamming policy)
I have no desire to turn this into a squabble, but would appreciate some guidance. Can this really be considered "spamming"? Lashtal.com 00:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aleister Crowley in popular culture. As that debate may have an impact on this article (particularly when people propose merging), I thought it would be only fair that the editors of this page be made aware of the debate. Mango juice talk 14:58, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that he wrote some books detailing how to do all sorts of magical things, except some of the recipes instead of having the required effect, would explode or do something just as dangerous. According to the story a man tried to make a homunculus by Crowley's recipe, only succeeding in killing himself in the resulting explosion, long after Crowley's own death. Anyone heard of this as well? Tainted Deity 15:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
That Jack Parsons fellow seems to fit in nicely with what I have heard. I guess it is an unconfirmable rumour. Tainted Deity 15:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else think we can find a better place for the section on Ouija boards? Judging by the article itself, they don't seem all that important to Crowley's work. The Ouija article has significantly less text than this one, which may leave out more important matters about yoga (see previous discussion). Maybe we should move the whole section there. Suggestions? Threats? Dan 00:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
"...the first syllable sounding like "crow" in English..." is is surprising to me. I have never heard anyone pronounce his name like this. Also, I know people with an identical surname and they do not pronounce the first syllable like the English word 'crow'. I thought the 'o' in Crowley is more like the English word 'our'? Without, prehaps the accent some people give to the 'r' (I could not think of a better example off the top of my head). PyrE 11:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sorry to be blunt but, who the world thought they were benefiting wikipedia by removing the 2 pictures of Crowley as an old man? It seems this was a wanton act with no reason behind whatsoever. I'm going to asume that it was VANDALISM and not the work of a overzealouse mod. Now can someone find the old pictures and out them back? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.130.215 ( talk) 01:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
While reading the article on Aleister Crowley I came across the following sentence, followed by a "citation needed" sign, exactly as shown below:
He objected to the labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful".[citation needed]
I don't know if I have misunderstood the reason for including the "citation needed" note? However, I would have thought that Crowley's objection to 'labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' was so well known as to need no citation whatsoever. Having read even a fraction of his "Confessions" I would say that his objection to 'the labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' was very nearly the most obvious thing about him. This is the man who, when informed of the death of Queen Victoria, joined with his companion of the moment, in throwing his hat in the air and performing a war dance. He saw Queen Victoria as a symbol of repression and he saw her death as cause for celebration. This is the man who gave the world that well known saying: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"! Can Crowley's objection to 'labelling of what he saw as life's most worthwhile and enjoyable activities as "sinful"' seriously be in need of a citation? If it can, then please may I be permitted to cite: Every single thing he has ever written?
Richard Gillard 23:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
On the radio talk show A View From Space, November 11, 2007, Toronto talk show host "Spaceman" Gary Bell relays about the mother of the former first lady, Pauline, that nine months prior to the birth of her third child she was in France:
__ meco 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
I read the story also. Is it a true story, or a gossip simply. Nmate ( talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:02, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
speculate - but I think the story came out on an April 1st —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.126.136.233 ( talk) 08:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
i think that it should be put on that the ozzy osbourne song mr.crowley is based on aleister crowley. he wrote the song when he found a deck of tarot cards designed by crowley in the studio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.179.34.159 ( talk) 04:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
that is an absurd suggestion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.127.174.141 ( talk) 20:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There should at least be a section on 'Crowley in Popular culture' - e.g. the cover of 'Sergeant Pepper', the character of Mocata in Dennis Wheatley's 'The Devil Rides Out', Ozzy Osbourne's 'Mister Crowley', David Bowie's 'Quicksand'. 90.193.44.230 ( talk) 09:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There should definitely be a link back to Mr. Crowley from this article. It's the only way a lot of people have heard of him. A pop culture section seems appropriate to me. -- Bilbo1507 ( talk) 20:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)