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Archive 1 |
82.0.51.190: thanks for making that change of Harry Corbett to James Corbitt -- I had visions of our Albert hanging Sooty! Arwel 20:43, 17 September 2003 (UTC)
There seems to be just a little too much of it in this article. In particular referring to those executed as his 'clients' or is this some sort of standard terminology? Gurkha 22:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the statistics section really neccessary; it makes thar article look abit busy. Wright123 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The Biography section is now quite large. I don't think that any of it needs getting rid of. But, i do think that it would be a good idea to split it up a bit more. I would do it, but im not an expert on Albert. Thanks Wright123 19:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5035690.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2006/04/27/pierrepoint_lasthangman_feature.shtml
BBC interview with Pierrepoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/realmedia/features/pierrepoint.ram
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.132.37.219 08:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
== How come A. Pierrepoint could not claim to be unapplicaple for hanging of James Corbitt ?? == There is no such word as "unapplicaple".
Surely if a hangman discovered that the person he was supposed to hang was a friend of his there should have been the possibility for him to declare himself as too involved to perform the execution? Maybe this possibility existed but Albert decided against it ? 89.8.39.9 00:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
ad (d): it was Syd Dernley, who wrote in his book, that declining a job could lead to withrawal from the list of executioners. Jonny1044
No Definite Proof There In his autobiography, Albert Pierrepoint (FAR more savvy with the system than Dernley) states that turning down an engagement would NOT automatically lead to removal from the Home Office list. A quick look through Steve Fielding's "The Executioner's Bible" for example will reveal plenty of incidences when British hangmen were forced to decline execution offers for various reasons, with no consequences. -- UD75 ( talk) 22:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
A point I would also like to make, from the POV of the condemned, is that if indeed Albert backed out, Corbitt would still have hanged. One of the main duties of the Assistant Executioner was to take over if the Number One couldn't finish the job, either the whole thing or simply having to run to the other side of the trap and throw the lever at the last minute. -- UD75 ( talk) 16:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I've had to do a slight edit as it appears that someone was a little confused at the two different usages of the term "Chief Executioner" - there's the title of Chief Executioner as in "Chief Executioner of the United Kingdom", and the role of Chief Executioner, i.e. the person who was in charge of conducting the execution - calculating the drop, hooding the condemned, putting the noose around the neck, and pulling the lever to open the trap; Antonio Mancini's in 1941 was the first execution where Albert played this role, previously he was an Assistant Executioner, responsible for pinioning the condemned's legs with a belt so he couldn't try to save himself from the drop. Executions in England normally had at least one Assistant Executioner (and sometimes as many as three, as new applicants for the job were tried out to see if they had the stomach for it), but in Scotland and Ireland there was not normally an assistant (the authorities would have had to pay his fees, and they were loath to do this!). In England, it was normally the under-sheriff of the county concerned who hired the Chief Executioner, while the prison governor hired the assistant. -- Arwel ( talk) 00:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You are wrong to state that an assistant was "not normally" used in Scotland and Ireland, because the authorities were reluctant to pay. In Ireland, the executioner generally took whoever he wanted to act as the assistant, and Tom Pierrepoint even took his drinking buddies along as assistants at Irish hangings if he thought they could manage it. Assistants, at least post 1930, were engaged at Scottish hangings, although not all were from the list; Harry Allen's son Brian acted as the assistant at Peter Manuel's hanging at Barlinnie, but never did the training course. Finally, the claim about the authorities being reluctant to pay is wrong. Of all, the Scottish authorities were THE most generous, because they paid the full fee regardless of whether the execution was carried out or not. It was because of the fact that this DIDN'T happen in England and Wales, along with the fact that the hangmen were generally treated like shit, that Albert resigned. -- UD75 ( talk) 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Brian Allen was not the assistant on Peter Manuel - the number two was a man called Harry Smith from Doncaster. In England & Wales after 1900 no man who wasn't on 'the list' was allowed anywhere near an execution chamber. In 1900/1 the Irish Sheriffs were instructed to use only men on the list (hence Thomas Scott and Bartholomew Binns were never asked again after March 1901) which they did so up until 1921, bar one job in 1905 when William Billington did a job in Cork even though he had been sacked in England in late 1904. Similiarly in Scotland after 1900 there are no 'odd' hangmen. www.truecrimelibrary.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.185.15 ( talk) 20:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the wording in this section to show a more general view of Pierrepoint's thoughts on the use of Capital Punishment. His true thoughts are unkown, not definite. The only person who truly knows is no longer with us...
Although he stated in his book that he had reached the decision that the punishment was irrelevant, his 1976 BBC Radio Merseyside interview shows that he was beginning to have second thoughts on the issue. In addition, his former assistant Syd Dernley also stated in his book that he firmly believed that Albert had stated this fact purely to help sell the book, and that he had not actually had a change of heart. Steve Fielding, author of the biography "Pierrepoint: A Family of Executioners", also takes a similar view of the matter during his interview in "The Executioners".
If anyone has a problem with this, then I welcome a response. -- UD75 ( talk) 17:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC) It has been subsequently revealed that Dernley was fired as assistant hangman because he was charged with, and found guilty of, purveying pornogaphic material. He lies in his biography about the reason he 'quit' and so everything he says must be called into question.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 ( talk) 12:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, a little off-topic here, but there seem to be lots of references to this nonsense idea that breaking the neck causes instant death. Breaking the neck causes instant paralysis, that's all. The guy still strangles. He just can't kick and squirm to convey his suffering to observers. -- Trovatore 15:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently you found no such evidence, or you'd have mentioned it. Your link to Lavoisier led me to this Straight Dope column, in which a Dr. Fink observes that people "have remained alert after having their spinal cords severed".
I think in the absence of countervailing evidence, the default conclusion is clear: Severing the spinal cord does not cause unconsciousness, per se. A hanged person most likely remains conscious until hypoxia takes over (though it's conceivable he might be stunned by the concussion, but this is hardly "deep unconsciousness"). -- Trovatore 23:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The long drop method conveys an enormous amount of force to the neck and head which is said to cause instant unconciousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.111.182 ( talk) 20:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Could someone explain how he happened to execute 16 US soldiers? What had they done? -- Trovatore 18:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know where he was born? I have an idea it was in Oldham (Lancs), but have no verification of this. He certainly ran a pub called "Help the Poor Struggler" in Oldham for many years before "retiring" to Southport (Lancs) where he had a number of part-time jobs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.90.245 04:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
1. I don't think the word "lorry" in this article needs to be glossed; we Americans are as familiar with this word as we are with English spelling (e.g. "centre", "colour", etc.). Further, equating "lorry" with "truck" only confuses those of us who don't know the meaning of the word, since the label "truck" is applied to a range of vehicles from pickup trucks & SUVs to seventeen-wheelers & double-trailer long haulers.
2. I'm surprised this article is rated as "Start": not only is its coverage complete about Pierrepoint's life & career, this article goes into further depth than the encyclopedias I grew up with would have -- this is something the average "Start" class article doesn't come close to doing. While I wouldn't seriously consider it FA material, I will promote it to "B" status unless someone objects. --
llywrch (
talk)
22:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the article is great. I've just changes the structure a bit by moving some stuff about and putting headings in. I have removed very very little. Wright123 16:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
A bracket is missing Albert Pierrepoint was born in Clayton, near Bradford, Manchester. (Not to be confused with the Bradford in the West Riding of Yorkshire.MISSING —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.114.220 ( talk) 15:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Tony Mancini was involved in the infamous Brighton Trunk Murders. Acquitted of murder in 1934, he publicly confessed in 1976 [1]. Is it possible there are two murderers of the same name in the same period? Emarmite ( talk) 05:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Although pardoned, Timothy Evans’s murder conviction still stands. It was not at all subsequently discovered that it was John Christie that killed Beryl or Geraldine Evans – merely that he was a mass murderer (the term "serial killer" was a later creation) living in the same house at the same time and this cast sufficient doubt to warrant a pardon. Evans’s conviction was never quashed. Although commonly believed, it is nevertheless also fallacious to say that the Evans case had a bearing on the abolition of capital punishment – this was already being considered by Parliament in the thirties and the later (post-war) debates made no allusion to Evans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.237.143 ( talk) 23:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
If an execution paid £15, would be interesting to know what Pierrepoint's "day job" was. knoodelhed 18:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A NOTE referring to the assistant's payment which was 1 1/2 guineas explains "guinea" being used as a unit for professional services. That's true, but it doesn't mean the assistant executioner was ranking one level with lawyers and doctors. Hey, his boss, the "number One", was paid in pounds!-- Kauko56 ( talk) 11:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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I am working on a project to improve and expand this article. This will be a fairly lengthy process, during which editors' comments and suggestions will be most welcome. If possible, please use this talk page, but never fear to WP:BEBOLD. Cheers – SchroCat ( talk) 12:01, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Watching and willing to help as I can. Kafka Liz ( talk) 07:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Article on Albert from the Southport Visiter (sic) - text removed from this talk page because it's © Trinity Mirror Plc. -- Arwel 09:43, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
82.0.51.190: thanks for making that change of Harry Corbett to James Corbitt -- I had visions of our Albert hanging Sooty! Arwel 20:43, 17 September 2003 (UTC)
There seems to be just a little too much of it in this article. In particular referring to those executed as his 'clients' or is this some sort of standard terminology? Gurkha 22:56, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Is the statistics section really neccessary; it makes thar article look abit busy. Wright123 19:39, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The Biography section is now quite large. I don't think that any of it needs getting rid of. But, i do think that it would be a good idea to split it up a bit more. I would do it, but im not an expert on Albert. Thanks Wright123 19:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5035690.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/content/articles/2006/04/27/pierrepoint_lasthangman_feature.shtml
BBC interview with Pierrepoint: http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/realmedia/features/pierrepoint.ram
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.132.37.219 08:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
== How come A. Pierrepoint could not claim to be unapplicaple for hanging of James Corbitt ?? == There is no such word as "unapplicaple".
Surely if a hangman discovered that the person he was supposed to hang was a friend of his there should have been the possibility for him to declare himself as too involved to perform the execution? Maybe this possibility existed but Albert decided against it ? 89.8.39.9 00:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
ad (d): it was Syd Dernley, who wrote in his book, that declining a job could lead to withrawal from the list of executioners. Jonny1044
No Definite Proof There In his autobiography, Albert Pierrepoint (FAR more savvy with the system than Dernley) states that turning down an engagement would NOT automatically lead to removal from the Home Office list. A quick look through Steve Fielding's "The Executioner's Bible" for example will reveal plenty of incidences when British hangmen were forced to decline execution offers for various reasons, with no consequences. -- UD75 ( talk) 22:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
A point I would also like to make, from the POV of the condemned, is that if indeed Albert backed out, Corbitt would still have hanged. One of the main duties of the Assistant Executioner was to take over if the Number One couldn't finish the job, either the whole thing or simply having to run to the other side of the trap and throw the lever at the last minute. -- UD75 ( talk) 16:50, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I've had to do a slight edit as it appears that someone was a little confused at the two different usages of the term "Chief Executioner" - there's the title of Chief Executioner as in "Chief Executioner of the United Kingdom", and the role of Chief Executioner, i.e. the person who was in charge of conducting the execution - calculating the drop, hooding the condemned, putting the noose around the neck, and pulling the lever to open the trap; Antonio Mancini's in 1941 was the first execution where Albert played this role, previously he was an Assistant Executioner, responsible for pinioning the condemned's legs with a belt so he couldn't try to save himself from the drop. Executions in England normally had at least one Assistant Executioner (and sometimes as many as three, as new applicants for the job were tried out to see if they had the stomach for it), but in Scotland and Ireland there was not normally an assistant (the authorities would have had to pay his fees, and they were loath to do this!). In England, it was normally the under-sheriff of the county concerned who hired the Chief Executioner, while the prison governor hired the assistant. -- Arwel ( talk) 00:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You are wrong to state that an assistant was "not normally" used in Scotland and Ireland, because the authorities were reluctant to pay. In Ireland, the executioner generally took whoever he wanted to act as the assistant, and Tom Pierrepoint even took his drinking buddies along as assistants at Irish hangings if he thought they could manage it. Assistants, at least post 1930, were engaged at Scottish hangings, although not all were from the list; Harry Allen's son Brian acted as the assistant at Peter Manuel's hanging at Barlinnie, but never did the training course. Finally, the claim about the authorities being reluctant to pay is wrong. Of all, the Scottish authorities were THE most generous, because they paid the full fee regardless of whether the execution was carried out or not. It was because of the fact that this DIDN'T happen in England and Wales, along with the fact that the hangmen were generally treated like shit, that Albert resigned. -- UD75 ( talk) 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Brian Allen was not the assistant on Peter Manuel - the number two was a man called Harry Smith from Doncaster. In England & Wales after 1900 no man who wasn't on 'the list' was allowed anywhere near an execution chamber. In 1900/1 the Irish Sheriffs were instructed to use only men on the list (hence Thomas Scott and Bartholomew Binns were never asked again after March 1901) which they did so up until 1921, bar one job in 1905 when William Billington did a job in Cork even though he had been sacked in England in late 1904. Similiarly in Scotland after 1900 there are no 'odd' hangmen. www.truecrimelibrary.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.185.15 ( talk) 20:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I have changed the wording in this section to show a more general view of Pierrepoint's thoughts on the use of Capital Punishment. His true thoughts are unkown, not definite. The only person who truly knows is no longer with us...
Although he stated in his book that he had reached the decision that the punishment was irrelevant, his 1976 BBC Radio Merseyside interview shows that he was beginning to have second thoughts on the issue. In addition, his former assistant Syd Dernley also stated in his book that he firmly believed that Albert had stated this fact purely to help sell the book, and that he had not actually had a change of heart. Steve Fielding, author of the biography "Pierrepoint: A Family of Executioners", also takes a similar view of the matter during his interview in "The Executioners".
If anyone has a problem with this, then I welcome a response. -- UD75 ( talk) 17:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC) It has been subsequently revealed that Dernley was fired as assistant hangman because he was charged with, and found guilty of, purveying pornogaphic material. He lies in his biography about the reason he 'quit' and so everything he says must be called into question.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 ( talk) 12:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
OK, a little off-topic here, but there seem to be lots of references to this nonsense idea that breaking the neck causes instant death. Breaking the neck causes instant paralysis, that's all. The guy still strangles. He just can't kick and squirm to convey his suffering to observers. -- Trovatore 15:47, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Apparently you found no such evidence, or you'd have mentioned it. Your link to Lavoisier led me to this Straight Dope column, in which a Dr. Fink observes that people "have remained alert after having their spinal cords severed".
I think in the absence of countervailing evidence, the default conclusion is clear: Severing the spinal cord does not cause unconsciousness, per se. A hanged person most likely remains conscious until hypoxia takes over (though it's conceivable he might be stunned by the concussion, but this is hardly "deep unconsciousness"). -- Trovatore 23:55, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
The long drop method conveys an enormous amount of force to the neck and head which is said to cause instant unconciousness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.111.182 ( talk) 20:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
Could someone explain how he happened to execute 16 US soldiers? What had they done? -- Trovatore 18:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know where he was born? I have an idea it was in Oldham (Lancs), but have no verification of this. He certainly ran a pub called "Help the Poor Struggler" in Oldham for many years before "retiring" to Southport (Lancs) where he had a number of part-time jobs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.142.90.245 04:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
1. I don't think the word "lorry" in this article needs to be glossed; we Americans are as familiar with this word as we are with English spelling (e.g. "centre", "colour", etc.). Further, equating "lorry" with "truck" only confuses those of us who don't know the meaning of the word, since the label "truck" is applied to a range of vehicles from pickup trucks & SUVs to seventeen-wheelers & double-trailer long haulers.
2. I'm surprised this article is rated as "Start": not only is its coverage complete about Pierrepoint's life & career, this article goes into further depth than the encyclopedias I grew up with would have -- this is something the average "Start" class article doesn't come close to doing. While I wouldn't seriously consider it FA material, I will promote it to "B" status unless someone objects. --
llywrch (
talk)
22:19, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the article is great. I've just changes the structure a bit by moving some stuff about and putting headings in. I have removed very very little. Wright123 16:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
A bracket is missing Albert Pierrepoint was born in Clayton, near Bradford, Manchester. (Not to be confused with the Bradford in the West Riding of Yorkshire.MISSING —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.73.114.220 ( talk) 15:55, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Tony Mancini was involved in the infamous Brighton Trunk Murders. Acquitted of murder in 1934, he publicly confessed in 1976 [1]. Is it possible there are two murderers of the same name in the same period? Emarmite ( talk) 05:14, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
Although pardoned, Timothy Evans’s murder conviction still stands. It was not at all subsequently discovered that it was John Christie that killed Beryl or Geraldine Evans – merely that he was a mass murderer (the term "serial killer" was a later creation) living in the same house at the same time and this cast sufficient doubt to warrant a pardon. Evans’s conviction was never quashed. Although commonly believed, it is nevertheless also fallacious to say that the Evans case had a bearing on the abolition of capital punishment – this was already being considered by Parliament in the thirties and the later (post-war) debates made no allusion to Evans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.237.143 ( talk) 23:06, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
If an execution paid £15, would be interesting to know what Pierrepoint's "day job" was. knoodelhed 18:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
A NOTE referring to the assistant's payment which was 1 1/2 guineas explains "guinea" being used as a unit for professional services. That's true, but it doesn't mean the assistant executioner was ranking one level with lawyers and doctors. Hey, his boss, the "number One", was paid in pounds!-- Kauko56 ( talk) 11:26, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Albert Pierrepoint. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:05, 30 June 2017 (UTC)
I am working on a project to improve and expand this article. This will be a fairly lengthy process, during which editors' comments and suggestions will be most welcome. If possible, please use this talk page, but never fear to WP:BEBOLD. Cheers – SchroCat ( talk) 12:01, 21 August 2018 (UTC)
Watching and willing to help as I can. Kafka Liz ( talk) 07:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
Article on Albert from the Southport Visiter (sic) - text removed from this talk page because it's © Trinity Mirror Plc. -- Arwel 09:43, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)