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Not sure how to edit this correctly, but there are multiple errors on this page:
(1) Sabrosky did three(?) tours in Vietnam as a gunnery sergeant in intelligence; he was not a Marine officer (enlisted).
TWO tours (Sergeant/Staff Sergeant, promoted gunnery sergeant near end of enlistment in 1969)
(2) Stating that he was a "mid-level" civilian is incorrect, and a deliberate attempt to paint him in a particular light. He was at least a GS-13 (possibly higher), which is far from "mid-level."
GM-15 (excepted service, not career)
(3) Sabrosky was the holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, a prestigious recognition from the War College (where he graduated in 1986).
(4) He "taught" at the United States Military Academy, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Middlebury College and Catholic University; he held adjunct professorships at Georgetown University and the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).
Appointemnt at CSIS was not a teaching appointment, but a research appointment like the Army's Strategic Studies Institute
Whether one agrees with him or not on political or other issues, it's important to keep the wiki free of political bias.
Should there not also be a Partial Lists of Publications here?
YES. Not sure how to do this, have not edited a Wiki page before and want to stay within the rules. A list of publications will show evolution of my research interests. My email address is: docbrosk@comcst.net - if you will send me an email address for you, I will send that material to ytou and then get out of the way! Many thanks for your assistance.
Sources:
https://www.veteransnewsnow.com/author/sabrosky/
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=35301 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.105.149 ( talk) 04:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
I hardly know where to begin - there are so m,any errors of commission and omission that it would be simpler just to delete the entry and start over. For instance - and you can use my entry in "Who's Who in the East" (23rd edition, 1993) for preliminary verification - Iuse my full name "Alan Ned Sabrosky" because omitting the middle name causes most search engines to miss my academic & government work. I am not a retired Marine officer - I served 10 years including 2 tours in Vietnam as a sergeant. I was at the Army War College as Director of Studies in the Strategic Studies Institute, but I never oversaw student reports - that happened ion the War College proper. The academic publications are partly correct, except for the "prisoners of war" - remark that was the title of a book published in the early 1990s and dealt with the propensity of states to go to war and not POWs, which simply showed that whoever did this hatchet job never opened the cover of the book. And that was only in the 1970s, missing almost all of my subsequent work.
I don't simply have "an advanced degree from the University of Michigan, I have A.M. degrees in History (1971) and Political Science (1972) and a Ph.D in Political Science (1976), as well as being a graduate of the US Army War College (1986). My academic appointments inclued the US Military Academy, Middlebury College, Catholic University, the University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown university and the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). I was at the Foreign Policy Research Institute as indicated and finished with a very bad year there, followed by a slot as Senior Fellow at the Ce ter for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS). And that led to the Strategic Studies Institute appointment concurrent with the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research for more than five years, ending with a Superior Civilian Award for exemplary work as "manager, mentor and analyst."
And so on. Do you really want me to do a line-by-line suggested editing with sources? Or should I ask any one of several editors who know my work to edit the piece? Or since the Hasbara clowns who did this travesty will just edit it again, do you want to kill it and wait for me to die before re-inserting it? After then they probably won't care.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs)
@ Docbrosk1941: I requested page protection to prevent the ips from editing. Regarding changing the article, the content in the article needs to be reliably sources to independent sources. This book says "former Marine officer" [1] — is that different from retired Marine officer? I can replace the "prisoners of war" part with a direct quote from this book [2]. Can you please let us know what other changes you want to make specifically, and also give the sources for those changes? Seraphim System ( talk) 09:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System @Spintendo Thanks ever so much for your assistance. Hope I am doing this part right. Let me suggest I post info on me in bullet form with sources and publications then get out of the way and let you do your thing - reading what both of you wrote, whatever you decide to do is fine with me, And if I break Wiki etiquette, please advise what is correct. Thanks - I will have info to you sometime Tuesday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System, @Spintendo . Got it done and it is LONG, although I fully expect you to edit it down (especially the list of publications). But I am still not comfortable with the Wiki posting & editing procedure, and do not wish to screw this up now that I actually have assistance with the entry. Would it not be possible to simply email you the attachments since the material I send will have to be reworked in any case? I promise I will not use the email address again. Mine is: docbrosk@comcast.net - just send a brief contact email using your Wiki handle and I'll get my work-up to you ASAP. If you want me to try doing it on Wiki I will, but it will not be easy reading for anyone in that format. Thanks - Alan https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Alan_Sabrosky&action=edit# — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Seraphim System and Spintendo: drawing both your attention to Docbrosk1941's material here; he pinged you both in plaintext so I'm not sure whether you realize this is here. Yngvadottir ( talk) 21:25, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
WIKIPEDIA ENTRY
[[ I am going to put down as much information as I think might be useful to you in revising the entry on me. Almost everything can be verified by "Who's Who in the East" (23rd ed, 1991-1992) or in ""American Men and Women of Science: Social and Behavioral Sciences" (13th ed). Use as much or as little as you deem appropriate. The "Publications" section includes selected articles as well as books & monographs - I expect you'll want to either cull or delete in their entirety the articles, and that's fine by me. I also kept all seven of the references in the original entry as well as what they references, slightly rephrased in a couple of places to avoid redundancy. Feel free to contact me directly at docbrosk@comcast.net if you have questions or need clarification. Otherwise I will take a "hands off" approach to this exercise.]] And I apologize for this, I tried 7 times to upload the #$@%@$ file and failed. Off to work now! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 11:50, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
ENTRY: Please use "Alan Ned Sabrosky"
Alan Ned Sabrosky is a 10-year US Marine Corps veteran and former civilian Director of Studies (GM-15) at the US Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute. His academic research mainly focused on quantitative international politics (especially alliance systems), military manpower policy, and great power politics. His policy work examined US and comparative foreign and defense policy, in both NATO and the Middle East, in addition to classified work for the US Army leadership. His contemporary (post-2001) publications have critiqued the "9/11 incident," Palestine and Israel, and the extent to which US Middle East policy is hostage to the influence of domestic and foreign lobbies.
Contents
Background
Academic Research
Policy Work
Contemporary Publications and Controversy
Recognition and Awards
Publications
References
Background______________________________________________________________
Alan Ned Sabrosky was born in Lansing, MI on October 10, 1941. After graduation from high school in 1959, he enlisted in the US Marine Corps. He served 10 years, including two tours in Vietnam with the 1st Marine Division, receiving the Navy Commendation Medal w/V and Purple Heart among other decorations and being promoted to gunnery sergeant before the end of his second enlistment, in addition to completing his undergraduate degree at East Carolina University (1969). He then attended graduate school at the University of Michigan, receiving A.M. degrees in History (1971) and Political Science (1972) and his PhD in Political Science (1976). He is (as a civilian) a 1986 graduate of the U.S. Army War College. [1]
He worked at the Foreign Policy Research Institute (Philadelphia) for most of the 1970s and was appointed its Director in 1981. He left FPRI in 1982 after a tenure that began well and ended badly when the Institute was in debt.[2] He was selected to be Director of Studies of the US Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute in September 1983, serving in that position until December 1988, at which time he received the Army's Superior Civilian Service Award for his work as "manager, mentor and adviser."[3]
Over the years, he has also been a Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, DC. He has held academic appointments at Middlebury College, Catholic University, the US Military Academy (West Point), the University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown University, the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) and Rhodes College (Memphis). [4] He has also been editor or managing editor of several journals and online publications, including Comparative Strategy, International Security Review, Orbis, Journal of Small Wars and Insurgencies, Veterans Today and Veterans News Now. He currently divides his time between Pennsylvania and Mississippi, where he has a small computer business, while continuing to write and speak on contemporary national and international security issues.
Academic Research_______________________________________________________
Sabrosky's work on quantitative international politics found that an imbalance in the alignment of major powers was often a prelude to war, and that conflicts escalate when a major power intervenes in a war between a minor state. and another major power. [5] Sabrosky has identified three types of conflict in this analysis: "localized wars" between the original belligerents, "expanded wars" which include several belligerents, and "enlarged wars" that include at least one major power on both sides of the conflict. [6] His work on defense manpower policy overlapped the academic and policy fields. It examined the transition in the US from a mixed force of draftees and volunteers to an all-volunteer force (AVF), cautioning that the new AVF would greatly increase manpower costs in the armed forces and causing the military great difficulties in maintaining force levels. And in the book Blue-Collar Soldiers: Unionization and the U.S. Military Sabrosky, who edited the volume, stated that "military unions are simply too great a risk for a political democracy," adding that it would be "unwise not to expect [military] unions not to act like unions over the long term, and in so doing call into question the basis of our national security." [7]
Policy Work__________________________________________________________
Much of his policy work, especially in the 1980s, involved classified research for the Army leadership and others. He wrote unclassified assessments on inter alia the "Weinberger Doctrine" of the 1980s on the use of force by the US; critiques of U.S. strategy in the Persian Gulf; NATO strategy for the defense of Europe against a potential Soviet onslaught; French defense policy; the persistence of the so-called "Vietnam Syndrome" into the 1990s; the US invasion of Panama; the initial Gulf War with Iraq known as "Desert Storm"; internal affairs and prospects in South Africa; the potential role of political advisers (POLADs) in divisions and corps; and the strategic value of having nominal "allies" who were in fact "encumbrances" for the US because of their internal policies and/or regional behavior. [8]
Contemporary Publications and Controversy_________________
Beginning in 2001 with the attacks on September 11 (the so-called "9/11" incident) and the ensuing "War on Terror," Sabrosky has become increasingly critical of the actions and policies of the US government, and of the role of Israel - acting through AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and its adherents - in driving US Middle East policy in particular. With the Israeli attack on Gaza City in 2008-2009, he extended that to scathing critiques of Israel itself and of the behavior of large segments of the American Jewish community on Israel's behalf - many dual US-Israeli citizens, others only holding US citizenship but espousing what he calls a form of political bigamy known as "dual loyalty" which in practice gives clear precedence to Israel. He has described the so-called "Two State Solution" (Israel and a truncated, disarmed Palestinian entity) as a failure from its inception. He has characterized Israeli practices in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and towards Gaza, as morally corrupt and nothing less than regional imperialism. And most prominently, he has written acerbically about the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 (in which over 200 US sailors and Marines were killed or wounded); and later on the 9/11 incident concluding that "I am also absolutely certain as a strategic analyst that 9/11 itself, from which all else flows, was a classic Mossad-orchestrated operation. But Mossad did not do it alone." [9]
Not surprisingly, this has made his current work more than a little controversial, given the influence of American Jews in the mainstream media (MSM) and the prominence of Jewish organizations within the US. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), for example, has named him a key figure in "anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories," and numerous Israelis and American partisans of Israel have echoed similar sentiments. [10] But others, such as the Jewish-run blog Mondoweiss, have published his work and many others endorse his conclusions - as do many Israeli opponents of that country's occupation policy. [11] Sabrosky himself dismisses such charges as ludicrous, and not only because he himself has some Jewish ancestry. He sees charges of anti-Semitism and of being a "conspiracy theorist" simply as propaganda tools to suppress criticism of Israel and to deflect close examinations of the US Government's explanation of the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "War on Terror."
Recognition and Awards_______________________________
Listed in WHO'S WHO IN THE EAST (23rd ed., 1991-1992)
Listed in AMERICAN MEN AND WOMEN OF SCIENCE: SOCIAL AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES (13th ed)
Superior Civilian Service Award (U.S. Army, 1988)
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, U.S. Army War College (1985-1988)
Phi Gamma Mu (National Social Science Honorary)
Delta Tau Kappa (International Social Sciences Honorary)
Publications______________________________________________
Throughout a career spanning nearly five decades, Sabrosky's published work includes thirteen books or monographs and over two hundred sixty articles, chapters and book reviews, plus numerous classified studies. A partial listing providing some indication of the breadth of his research interests follows:
PRESIDENTIAL WAR: THE POLITICS OF AMERICAN MILITARY INTERVENTION, in preparation (author)
PRISONERS OF WAR? NATION-STATES IN THE MODERN ERA, Lexington, MA: D.C. Heath/Lexington Books, 1990 (coeditor and contributor)
THE RECOURSE TO WAR: AN APPRAISAL OF THE "WEINBERGER DOCTRINE." Carlisle Barracks, PA: U.S. Army War College, 1988 (coeditor and contributor)
ALLIANCES IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY: ISSUES IN THE QUEST FOR COLLECTIVE DEFENSE. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1988 (editor and contributor)
THE STRATEGIC DIMENSION OF MILITARY MANPOWER, Cambridge, MA: Ballinger, 1987 (coeditor and contributor)
POLARITY AND WAR: THE CHANGING STRUCTURE OF INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT, Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1985 (editor and contributor)
GREAT POWER GAMES: THE SINO-SOVIET-AMERICAN "POWER TRANSITION," Washington, DC: Council on American Affairs, 1982 (author)
DEFENSE MANPOWER POLICY: A CRITICAL REAPPRAISAL, Philadelphia, PA: Foreign Policy Research Institute Monograph No. 22, 1978 (author)
BLUE-COLLAR SOLDIERS? UNIONIZATION AND THE U.S. MILITARY, Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1978 (editor and contributor)
"The American Domestic Distemper," EUROPE RELOADED (November 22, 2017)
"Demystifying 9/11: Israel and the Tactics of Mistake," VETERANS TODAY (June 27, 2011)
"The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism," COUNTERCURRENTS (March 20, 2010)
" I express my Jewish identity in cuisine, not foreign policy," MONDOWEISS (July 9, 2009)
" The Two-State Delusion," SALEM-NEWS.COM (May 12, 2009)
"Denied Infamy: Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty," INFORMATION CLEARING HOUSE (June 8, 2009)
"...And military shenanigans," THE WASHINGTON TIMES (September 16, 1994)
" 'Vietnam Syndrome' is alive and well," COMMERCIAL APPEAL (October 15, 1993)
"As Others See Us: The American Distemper in Foreign Policy," TELICOM (March 1992)
"Red Star Falling? The Soviet 'Small War' in Afghanistan," SMALL WARS & INSURGENCIES (April 1990)
"Border Wars," JOURNAL OF SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC STUDIES (Winter 1989/1990)
"Of Smoke and Mirrors," A Review Essay on DISCRIMINATE DETERRENCE: REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON INTEGRATED LONG-RANGE STRATEGY, in PARAMETERS (March 1989)
"Policy and Strategy for the 1980s: Preparing for Low-Intensity Conflicts," in R. H. Shultz, Jr. and R. A. Hunt (eds), LESSONS FROM AN UNCONVENTIONAL WAR (New York: Pergamon, 1982) (co-author)
"Conflict Studies: A Tale of Two Cities," in B. Newman and A. Zimmerman (eds), PROCEEDINGS of the First Conference on Conflict Studies in Education (London: ISCCS, 1981)
"From Bosnia to Sarajevo: A Comparative Discussion of Interstate Crises,' JOURNAL OF CONFLICT RESOLUTION (March 1975).
References_________________________________________________
1. Entry in Who's Who in the East (Willamette IL: Macmillan, 1990, 23rd ed., p.756
2. Wiarda, Howard J. (2010-05-10) Think Tanks and Foreign Policy: The Foreign Policy Research Institute and Presidential Politics Lexington Books
3. Superior Civilian Service Award for "Dr. Alan Ned Sabrosky, Carlisle PA: US Army War College (1988-12-31)
4. Who's Who in th East, op. cit.
5. Chan, Steve (2013-08-22). Enduring Rivalries in the Asia-Pacific Cambridge University Press.
6. Vasquez, John A. (1993) The War Puzzle Cambridge University Press.
7. Sabrosky, Alan N. (1978) Blue-Collar Soldiers: Unionization and the US Military Westview Press; and Sabrosky, Alan N. (1982) "The American All-Volunteer Force" in Harries-Jenkins, Gwyn (ed.) Western Armed Forces in the 1980s London, Macmillan.
8. See e.g. his "Red Star Falling? The Soviet 'Small War' in Afghanistan" (April 1990) Journal of Small Wars and Insurgencies; "South Africa: Adrift, But to Where?" (1991) Telicom; "Border Wars" (1989/1990) Journal of Social, Political, and Economic Studies; "NATO: A House Divided?" (1984) Atlantic Quarterly; and "Allies, Clients, and Encumbrances" (Summer 1980) International Security Review.
9. See e.g. his "Demystifying 9/11: Israel and the Tactics of Mistake" (June 27, 2011) Veterans Today; "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism" (March 20, 2010) Countercurrents; "Israel's Gaza Blockade: Letting the Chips Fall Where They May" (June 12, 2010) Salem-News.com; "Bibi Netanyahu: A Knave of Ghosts and Shadows" (October 4, 2009) Uprooted Palestinian; and "Obama Hits the Wailing Wall" (June 14, 2009) Khaleej Times.
10. Flesch, Daniel (2015) "Slandering Americans Who Fight for Israel" Commentary 139; "Decade of Deceit: Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories 10 Years Later" (2011-08-30) Anti-Defamation League [PDF]; and "ADL: Anti-Semitic 9/11 theories still strong 10 years on" (2011) The Jerusalem Post.
11. See his "I express my Jewish identity in cuisine, not foreign policy" (July 9, 2009) Mondoweiss. Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 21:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 01:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
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Please could an admin add the AfD template to the article? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Sabrosky exists. Thanks. Yngvadottir ( talk) 19:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
{{
edit fully-protected}}
rather than {{
adminhelp}}
, see
WP:PER. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
20:53, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
I've rewritten the article step by step at User:Yngvadottir/Alan Sabrosky rewrite. I'm going to make one more tweak today (I'm citing a source that doesnot mention his retirement) and then add the full list of books from Docbrosk1941's proposed version above; those I have not mentioned in paragraphs I did not find reviews or citations for, but WorldCat confirms the years and will enable me to add ISBNs. A significant number of things, including the classified research (obviously) but also the birth year, I did not find in sources. My thinking is that if the article is kept at AfD, the birth year could be added from Who's Who and I am still hoping to find an archived faculty biography, perhaps through Docbrosk1941, that will add a bit more on teaching positions, etc. And Seraphim System appears to have access to databases that I don't that may include another conference biography or two. But we have comparably slim biographies for many living academics, as I said above.
I have left out Marine officer, in deference to Docbrosk1941, but several sources do refer to him asa retired Marine officer.
So is this better?I believe it better demonstrates notability, with the named chair and the reviews of books. Yngvadottir ( talk) 19:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you so much. I am not looking at the rewritten version until it is posted. I have found some individual listings of my academic appointments but no single biography. But anything that replaces what was there in the past is a definite improvement. I do suggest that whatever is posted be protected, or we will find the same vandalism that plagued Seraphim System coming to the fore again. But I cannot thank you enough! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 13:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Something I found on my late father (Curtis W Sabrosky) included a link to me that appears to have several spources that may help with birth date and other info - I did not look at them be forward them for your information: https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/curtis-williams-sabrosky_184094172 . Cannot help about the retired officer, different people have called me everything from a high school dropout enlisted in the Marines in lie of jail, to the youngest major general in the US Army. Go figure. But one or more of thes records (4-5 come up by clicking on my name on this page) may help. Appreciate you! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 14:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
And I did recall a "Letter to the Editor" published in "Leatherneck" magazine about 4 yrs ago that affirms mi military service in the Marines, service in Vietnam and graduation from the Army War College - it is the fourth letter and the bio info is at the end inserted by the editor: https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/2014/02/leatherneck Hope this helps a bit! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 15:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
extended discussion about JTA
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Oppose per Yngvadottir I tried, but this discussion is going nowhere. Seraphim System ( talk) 13:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Not about the article
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@ E.M.Gregory: You say above that the subject of the article has been using this page for promotion for years. Let's see some evidence to support that, please. Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
One editor suggested I weigh in. So let me do this. First, not only did I never use Wiki for promotion of anything, I have been surprised that anything on me was there - I never looked for it. An earlier article was SO bad I argued for its removal a few years ago, and that finally happened. This version also surprised me, and while better needs the sort of rewrite being proposed. The notion that I have been "using" Wikipedia for anything is simply ludicrous and suggests a degree of bias on the part of the person who made that allegation that ought to have him/her removed as a Wiki editor.
Second is the question of my own ethics and perspective. Essentially I came to the entire 9/11 controversy midway through 2009 - hardly an issue spanning decades. I wrote an article on the subject, "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism," https://www.countercurrents.org/sabrosky200310.htm More specifically (having read the comments), it might be worth noting that "Veterans Today" is hardly an antisemitic website, given the number of Israelis and Jews who write for it. It is anti-Zionist (as am I), which Israel's advocates assert is the same thing - which is nonsense, can one imagine (e.g.) equating a condemnation of British imperialism with a prejudice against the British people? And besides, the Middle East constitutes a very small part of the subject matter in "Veterans Today" anyway. Same with the blog called "Mondoweiss." It is hardly pro-Palestinian, like VT it is more anti-Zionist, but looks at many more issues - and it is worth noting that the three guys running "Mondoweiss" are all American Jews.
The real problem that Israel and its supporters face is that it - and they - cannot afford an open disclosure of what Israel is and does. Many people in other countries realize this. South Africa today, for instance, has the most active BDS movement in the world and a government openly critical of Israel as an apartheid state - and whatever South Africa's other failings, it knows apartheid when it sees it. Americans don't see. hear or read about this pn TV or in the press. Look at the ownership and you'll understand why. I do point out these things, plus the fact that dual Israeli citizens litter the US government, and that the official US government case foe 9/11 is a bad joke - how (e.g.) could someone who could not fly a single-engine propeller Cessna fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon?? Pointing out these things gets one named as a "conspiracy theorist" (in an attempt to belittle their arguments), but as a Danish chemical engineer said on Danish TV, there is only one conspiracy theory out there, and that is the one put out by the US Government. Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 23:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC) Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 23:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
So what do most of the RS talk about, seems to be his recent work. So if we removes all the conspiracy stuff what are wee in fact left with? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC) People please remember this is not a forum. Slatersteven ( talk) 09:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E.M.Gregory: Let's try to compile a list here for weighting. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
That's what I've got so far. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I have never quite understood why questioning an official government account of anything ought to be considered a "conspiracy theory," other than as an exercise in trying to belittle the argument or to demean its author. Certainly the propensity to call me (and many, many others) "conspiracy theorists" or "racists" or "Anti-Semites" is in large part due to an inability on the part of our critics to respond substantively to the arguments we present. Happens all the time.
I would like to make two observations. One is that if one excludes Israeli or Jewish dominated sources like JTA, Commentary, ADL & SPLC (and please remember I am half Jewish...) allegations of Anti-Semitism are at best (or worst) very sparse. The other is that I made my position on Jews and Anti-Semitish very colear in the published article I noted above on "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism." Please do me the courtesy of reading it. If you then consider me truly Anti-Semitic, regardless of my own views, then kill the damn article. Otherwise please evaluate it on whatever other (and more realistic) standards you choose to use. Thank you, Alan Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 14:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
"Sabrosky, a regular columnist for the Veterans Today, is currently one of the most cited sources for anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories. Sabrosky, like Duff, typically ties these theories to other anti-Israel themes. When Sabrosky alleges that Israel and the Mossad were behind 9/11, he inevitably brings up Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians or its attacks on Gaza. Sabrosky has repeatedly made comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany, in which Israel fares far worse than the Nazi regime in his weighing."and
"that the Mossad and U.S government officials (namely Jewish neo-conservatives) were responsible for the 9/11 attacks and carried them out for Israel's benefit"2011 report. Conspiracy theories are described as such not since they challenge a government view, but since they contradict established fact. As for sources - we do not exclude sources on the basis of being "Jewish dominated" nor would this seem to describe IB Times, Business Insider, or Le Monde. Icewhiz ( talk) 14:49, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Anti-Defamation League named him as a key figure in anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories.Seraphim System ( talk) 16:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
In the recent, no consensus AfD, I switched what had been my very firm "delete" opinion to "keep" when an editor who had been doggedly arguing "keep" turned up the fact that Sabrosky once held a named chair. However, in the process of looking for sources on Sabrosky's conspiracy theories as requested by editors above, I stumbled into the fact that the named chair in question does not appear to have been a full professorship. It does, of course, happen that a college has an named endowment used to fund for a lecturer, or researcher or position at less than the distinguished professor level (many post-doc positions are endowed and "named" in this sense), but the automatic pass in WP:NACADEMIC.5 is restricted to chairs at the full professor level. (Think Tanks and Foreign Policy: The Foreign Policy Research Institute and Presidential Politics; Howard J. Wiarda,Lexington Books, 2010. p. 26) According to Wiarda: "During most of the 1970s he had been a research associate at FPRI but he had never achieved the status among peers and associates in Philadelphia (FPRI) that comes from a full, tenured position at a major university. He taught for a time at Catholic University in Washington D.C., was an adjunct professor at Georgetown, and was listed during FPRI days as a "lecturer" at Penn. Sabrosky had a respectable publications record mainly focused on alliance systems, prisoners of war, and unionization in the U.S. military, but no breakthrough or pioneering works. He stayed only for about one year at FPRI before he, too, decamped, first to Washington D.C. for a year, and then finding a permanent job as director of studies at the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle Barracks Pennsylvania." E.M.Gregory ( talk) 09:59, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
"Uniquely among academic institutions, USAWC chair holders receive an actual chair, courtesy of the Army War College Foundation"- I'm not sure this is equivalent to an actual endowed chair at a major university. Icewhiz ( talk) 10:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
E.M.Gregory, I'm sorry I have to ask you to tone it down a bit. You said the subject had been self-promoting in article space for years; as the president's lawyer said, either put up or shut up (sorry, that's what he said)--you've offered no evidence, even when asked, and if there isn't any, please retract it. And y'all please be careful with accusations of antisemitism: it's a heavy charge, so please keep it to the theories if that's properly verified (a look at the article suggests that RS say that's the case), and don't play the man. Thank you. Drmies ( talk) 17:08, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
If kept, the article would have to be sourced to articles that use the phrasing I use aboveand this seems like a continuation of that. Right now, I think it's best to prepare Yngvadottir's rewrite for posting. Let's try to stay focused on that. Seraphim System ( talk) 19:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E.M.Gregory: In fact, looking at the section most of it seems to be well-cited. Can you tell us which citations specifically have errors so we can fix them? I will agree that Veterans Today should not be cited, but the only other cite I see directly to Sabrosky is for the primary article Treason, Betrayal and Deceit: The Road to 9/11 and Beyond - this may be SYNTH, as the article does not seem to be named in the cited secondary sources. If a secondary source can't be found this should probably be reworded. Seraphim System ( talk) 18:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Article will need major revisions for accuracy and to give WP:DUE to the coverage his (redacted) 9/11 conspiracy theory advocacy has gotten.An admin was consulted about the application of C5 and confirmed that the named chair appears to the be the type of named chair covered by WP:NPROF. You should have dropped this then. I'm not going to continue replying to this. I can't even quote your discussion comments without accidentally repeating your BLP violations. I think if it doesn't stop this needs to go to AE. Seraphim System ( talk) 19:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
when describing fringe theories. No one is promoting fringe theories. The only thing it is cited for is that Sabrosky had won "the Superior Civilian Service Award". The quote from Sabrosky is sourced to an independent source - I don't know why Yngvadottir changed the cite to Veterans Today because it is also quoted in the Commentary article. The Veterans Today cite can be removed without losing much, the only thing we need VT for is the "Superior Civilian Service Award" (for which there is almost definitely another source somewhere that is not easily accessible). Seraphim System ( talk) 21:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
"virulently anti-Semitic website Veterans Today"[36], per IB Times -
the anti-Semitic Veterans Today[37], per ToI -
"an extremist whose bland-sounding website, Veterans Today, is a clearinghouse of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.[38], per VICE -
"the conspiracy-oriented Veterans Today"[39], per Salon -
"the leftist conspiracy website Veterans Today"[40], per Politico (quite in depth coverage of this site) -
"Veterans Today is a homegrown American site that was founded in 2003 in opposition to the invasion of Iraq and soon began publishing wild conspiracy theories[41]. This site can not be considered a RS even for the byline of the author (besides WP:FRIND precluding use of conspiracy theories as sources). We do have actual WP:RS saying Sabrosky published such and such on Veterans Today, however Veterans Today itself is not a reliable source even for the byline. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:02, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
You know, much as I would prefer to watch this exercise unfold (and I appreciate all of the effort the editors are putting into this, no matter what their opinions of me professionally), I am simply not going to sit back and let these allegations of anti-Semitism go without a response. First, because anyone reading what I write and who knows me understands those allegations are nonsense - and not just because I have some Jewish heritage. Second, go to "Veterans Today" - the website, not comments on the website - and look at the material. Most of it has nothing to do with the Middle East or 9/11, many of the writers are Israelis or non-Israeli Jews (not great candidates for an anti-Semitic site, no?), and those of us who do sometimes address those subjects are generally anti-Zionists and not supportive of the US Government "war on terror" - but why should a refusal to accept ANY government explanaton for anything put one beyond the pale? And last, tyou do find sources saying those unpleasant things about me and/or "Veterans Today," but there are two things to remember: most of them come from a narrow part of the political spectrum, and none of them is a military journal - you might ask yourselves why NONE of the military journals in the US share the views of (e.g.) the ADL or Politico or Commentary or the SPLC, which share a lot of the same leadership? You think they might know better what those of us who write on these subjects are about? Cheers, Alan Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 17:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I just saw an internet meme to that effect, and came here to see if there is any truth to it. The Article is very sparse. 1) Is there any truth to this? 2) If there is, should that be included in the Article? 3) If there isn't, should the fact that it's not true be included in the Article? 4) In general, in Terms of Wikipedia Policy, is there any guidance with regard to Articles being used as a means by which to correct "fake news", i.e. there's a popular rumor or belief that's wrong. Does the popularity of the rumor and/or the quality of it's wrongness give some kind of "notability" threshold to include some kind of correction in the Article? This is the 3rd time in about 2 weeks I've experienced this kind of thing, and I'm wondering about Wikipedia Policy in general. Is it commonly done? Occasionally done? NEVER done? Etc... I can see the obvious downside to addressing every flea-bitten rumor, but can also see the consequences of passively allowing such a rumor to continue unchecked. Tym Whittier ( talk) 18:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to reopen the discussion of replacing the article with the version created by Yngvadottir [42]. Naraht ( talk) 19:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I've just finished reading some of Ronnie Unz's self-citations contained within his op-ed entitled 'American Pravda: Mossad Assasinations' from January 27, 2020. Unz writes the following:
"... Dr. Alan Sabrosky, former Director of Studies at the US Army War College, stepped forward and publicly declared that the Israeli Mossad had very likely been responsible for the 9/11 attacks."
Sabrosky wrote the following:
"Many years ago I read a fascinating discussion of the “tactics of mistake.” This essentially entailed using a target’s prejudices and preconceptions to mislead them as to the origin and intent of the attack, entrapping them in a tactical situation that later worked to the attacker’s strategic advantage.
This is what unfolded in the 9/11 attacks that led us into the matrix of wars and conflicts, present (Afghanistan and Iraq), planned (Iran and Syria) and projected (Jordan and Egypt), that benefit Israel and no other country — although I concede that many private contractors and politicians are doing very well for themselves out of the death and misery of others."
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-mossad-assassinations/#the-9-11-attacks-who-did-it
Cite error: There are <ref>
tags on this page without content in them (see the
help page).
https://dissidentvoice.org/2011/06/demystifying-911-israel-and-the-tactics-of-mistake/
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Not sure how to edit this correctly, but there are multiple errors on this page:
(1) Sabrosky did three(?) tours in Vietnam as a gunnery sergeant in intelligence; he was not a Marine officer (enlisted).
TWO tours (Sergeant/Staff Sergeant, promoted gunnery sergeant near end of enlistment in 1969)
(2) Stating that he was a "mid-level" civilian is incorrect, and a deliberate attempt to paint him in a particular light. He was at least a GS-13 (possibly higher), which is far from "mid-level."
GM-15 (excepted service, not career)
(3) Sabrosky was the holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, a prestigious recognition from the War College (where he graduated in 1986).
(4) He "taught" at the United States Military Academy, the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Middlebury College and Catholic University; he held adjunct professorships at Georgetown University and the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS).
Appointemnt at CSIS was not a teaching appointment, but a research appointment like the Army's Strategic Studies Institute
Whether one agrees with him or not on political or other issues, it's important to keep the wiki free of political bias.
Should there not also be a Partial Lists of Publications here?
YES. Not sure how to do this, have not edited a Wiki page before and want to stay within the rules. A list of publications will show evolution of my research interests. My email address is: docbrosk@comcst.net - if you will send me an email address for you, I will send that material to ytou and then get out of the way! Many thanks for your assistance.
Sources:
https://www.veteransnewsnow.com/author/sabrosky/
http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=35301 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.53.105.149 ( talk) 04:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
I hardly know where to begin - there are so m,any errors of commission and omission that it would be simpler just to delete the entry and start over. For instance - and you can use my entry in "Who's Who in the East" (23rd edition, 1993) for preliminary verification - Iuse my full name "Alan Ned Sabrosky" because omitting the middle name causes most search engines to miss my academic & government work. I am not a retired Marine officer - I served 10 years including 2 tours in Vietnam as a sergeant. I was at the Army War College as Director of Studies in the Strategic Studies Institute, but I never oversaw student reports - that happened ion the War College proper. The academic publications are partly correct, except for the "prisoners of war" - remark that was the title of a book published in the early 1990s and dealt with the propensity of states to go to war and not POWs, which simply showed that whoever did this hatchet job never opened the cover of the book. And that was only in the 1970s, missing almost all of my subsequent work.
I don't simply have "an advanced degree from the University of Michigan, I have A.M. degrees in History (1971) and Political Science (1972) and a Ph.D in Political Science (1976), as well as being a graduate of the US Army War College (1986). My academic appointments inclued the US Military Academy, Middlebury College, Catholic University, the University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown university and the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS). I was at the Foreign Policy Research Institute as indicated and finished with a very bad year there, followed by a slot as Senior Fellow at the Ce ter for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS). And that led to the Strategic Studies Institute appointment concurrent with the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research for more than five years, ending with a Superior Civilian Award for exemplary work as "manager, mentor and analyst."
And so on. Do you really want me to do a line-by-line suggested editing with sources? Or should I ask any one of several editors who know my work to edit the piece? Or since the Hasbara clowns who did this travesty will just edit it again, do you want to kill it and wait for me to die before re-inserting it? After then they probably won't care.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs)
@ Docbrosk1941: I requested page protection to prevent the ips from editing. Regarding changing the article, the content in the article needs to be reliably sources to independent sources. This book says "former Marine officer" [1] — is that different from retired Marine officer? I can replace the "prisoners of war" part with a direct quote from this book [2]. Can you please let us know what other changes you want to make specifically, and also give the sources for those changes? Seraphim System ( talk) 09:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System @Spintendo Thanks ever so much for your assistance. Hope I am doing this part right. Let me suggest I post info on me in bullet form with sources and publications then get out of the way and let you do your thing - reading what both of you wrote, whatever you decide to do is fine with me, And if I break Wiki etiquette, please advise what is correct. Thanks - I will have info to you sometime Tuesday. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs) 19:51, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System, @Spintendo . Got it done and it is LONG, although I fully expect you to edit it down (especially the list of publications). But I am still not comfortable with the Wiki posting & editing procedure, and do not wish to screw this up now that I actually have assistance with the entry. Would it not be possible to simply email you the attachments since the material I send will have to be reworked in any case? I promise I will not use the email address again. Mine is: docbrosk@comcast.net - just send a brief contact email using your Wiki handle and I'll get my work-up to you ASAP. If you want me to try doing it on Wiki I will, but it will not be easy reading for anyone in that format. Thanks - Alan https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Alan_Sabrosky&action=edit# — Preceding unsigned comment added by Docbrosk1941 ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
@ Seraphim System and Spintendo: drawing both your attention to Docbrosk1941's material here; he pinged you both in plaintext so I'm not sure whether you realize this is here. Yngvadottir ( talk) 21:25, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
WIKIPEDIA ENTRY
[[ I am going to put down as much information as I think might be useful to you in revising the entry on me. Almost everything can be verified by "Who's Who in the East" (23rd ed, 1991-1992) or in ""American Men and Women of Science: Social and Behavioral Sciences" (13th ed). Use as much or as little as you deem appropriate. The "Publications" section includes selected articles as well as books & monographs - I expect you'll want to either cull or delete in their entirety the articles, and that's fine by me. I also kept all seven of the references in the original entry as well as what they references, slightly rephrased in a couple of places to avoid redundancy. Feel free to contact me directly at docbrosk@comcast.net if you have questions or need clarification. Otherwise I will take a "hands off" approach to this exercise.]] And I apologize for this, I tried 7 times to upload the #$@%@$ file and failed. Off to work now! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 11:50, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
ENTRY: Please use "Alan Ned Sabrosky"
Alan Ned Sabrosky is a 10-year US Marine Corps veteran and former civilian Director of Studies (GM-15) at the US Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute. His academic research mainly focused on quantitative international politics (especially alliance systems), military manpower policy, and great power politics. His policy work examined US and comparative foreign and defense policy, in both NATO and the Middle East, in addition to classified work for the US Army leadership. His contemporary (post-2001) publications have critiqued the "9/11 incident," Palestine and Israel, and the extent to which US Middle East policy is hostage to the influence of domestic and foreign lobbies.
Contents
Background
Academic Research
Policy Work
Contemporary Publications and Controversy
Recognition and Awards
Publications
References
Background______________________________________________________________
Alan Ned Sabrosky was born in Lansing, MI on October 10, 1941. After graduation from high school in 1959, he enlisted in the US Marine Corps. He served 10 years, including two tours in Vietnam with the 1st Marine Division, receiving the Navy Commendation Medal w/V and Purple Heart among other decorations and being promoted to gunnery sergeant before the end of his second enlistment, in addition to completing his undergraduate degree at East Carolina University (1969). He then attended graduate school at the University of Michigan, receiving A.M. degrees in History (1971) and Political Science (1972) and his PhD in Political Science (1976). He is (as a civilian) a 1986 graduate of the U.S. Army War College. [1]
He worked at the Foreign Policy Research Institute (Philadelphia) for most of the 1970s and was appointed its Director in 1981. He left FPRI in 1982 after a tenure that began well and ended badly when the Institute was in debt.[2] He was selected to be Director of Studies of the US Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute in September 1983, serving in that position until December 1988, at which time he received the Army's Superior Civilian Service Award for his work as "manager, mentor and adviser."[3]
Over the years, he has also been a Senior Fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) in Washington, DC. He has held academic appointments at Middlebury College, Catholic University, the US Military Academy (West Point), the University of Pennsylvania, Georgetown University, the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) and Rhodes College (Memphis). [4] He has also been editor or managing editor of several journals and online publications, including Comparative Strategy, International Security Review, Orbis, Journal of Small Wars and Insurgencies, Veterans Today and Veterans News Now. He currently divides his time between Pennsylvania and Mississippi, where he has a small computer business, while continuing to write and speak on contemporary national and international security issues.
Academic Research_______________________________________________________
Sabrosky's work on quantitative international politics found that an imbalance in the alignment of major powers was often a prelude to war, and that conflicts escalate when a major power intervenes in a war between a minor state. and another major power. [5] Sabrosky has identified three types of conflict in this analysis: "localized wars" between the original belligerents, "expanded wars" which include several belligerents, and "enlarged wars" that include at least one major power on both sides of the conflict. [6] His work on defense manpower policy overlapped the academic and policy fields. It examined the transition in the US from a mixed force of draftees and volunteers to an all-volunteer force (AVF), cautioning that the new AVF would greatly increase manpower costs in the armed forces and causing the military great difficulties in maintaining force levels. And in the book Blue-Collar Soldiers: Unionization and the U.S. Military Sabrosky, who edited the volume, stated that "military unions are simply too great a risk for a political democracy," adding that it would be "unwise not to expect [military] unions not to act like unions over the long term, and in so doing call into question the basis of our national security." [7]
Policy Work__________________________________________________________
Much of his policy work, especially in the 1980s, involved classified research for the Army leadership and others. He wrote unclassified assessments on inter alia the "Weinberger Doctrine" of the 1980s on the use of force by the US; critiques of U.S. strategy in the Persian Gulf; NATO strategy for the defense of Europe against a potential Soviet onslaught; French defense policy; the persistence of the so-called "Vietnam Syndrome" into the 1990s; the US invasion of Panama; the initial Gulf War with Iraq known as "Desert Storm"; internal affairs and prospects in South Africa; the potential role of political advisers (POLADs) in divisions and corps; and the strategic value of having nominal "allies" who were in fact "encumbrances" for the US because of their internal policies and/or regional behavior. [8]
Contemporary Publications and Controversy_________________
Beginning in 2001 with the attacks on September 11 (the so-called "9/11" incident) and the ensuing "War on Terror," Sabrosky has become increasingly critical of the actions and policies of the US government, and of the role of Israel - acting through AIPAC (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee) and its adherents - in driving US Middle East policy in particular. With the Israeli attack on Gaza City in 2008-2009, he extended that to scathing critiques of Israel itself and of the behavior of large segments of the American Jewish community on Israel's behalf - many dual US-Israeli citizens, others only holding US citizenship but espousing what he calls a form of political bigamy known as "dual loyalty" which in practice gives clear precedence to Israel. He has described the so-called "Two State Solution" (Israel and a truncated, disarmed Palestinian entity) as a failure from its inception. He has characterized Israeli practices in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and towards Gaza, as morally corrupt and nothing less than regional imperialism. And most prominently, he has written acerbically about the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty on June 8, 1967 (in which over 200 US sailors and Marines were killed or wounded); and later on the 9/11 incident concluding that "I am also absolutely certain as a strategic analyst that 9/11 itself, from which all else flows, was a classic Mossad-orchestrated operation. But Mossad did not do it alone." [9]
Not surprisingly, this has made his current work more than a little controversial, given the influence of American Jews in the mainstream media (MSM) and the prominence of Jewish organizations within the US. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), for example, has named him a key figure in "anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories," and numerous Israelis and American partisans of Israel have echoed similar sentiments. [10] But others, such as the Jewish-run blog Mondoweiss, have published his work and many others endorse his conclusions - as do many Israeli opponents of that country's occupation policy. [11] Sabrosky himself dismisses such charges as ludicrous, and not only because he himself has some Jewish ancestry. He sees charges of anti-Semitism and of being a "conspiracy theorist" simply as propaganda tools to suppress criticism of Israel and to deflect close examinations of the US Government's explanation of the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent "War on Terror."
Recognition and Awards_______________________________
Listed in WHO'S WHO IN THE EAST (23rd ed., 1991-1992)
Listed in AMERICAN MEN AND WOMEN OF SCIENCE: SOCIAL AND BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES (13th ed)
Superior Civilian Service Award (U.S. Army, 1988)
General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research, U.S. Army War College (1985-1988)
Phi Gamma Mu (National Social Science Honorary)
Delta Tau Kappa (International Social Sciences Honorary)
Publications______________________________________________
Throughout a career spanning nearly five decades, Sabrosky's published work includes thirteen books or monographs and over two hundred sixty articles, chapters and book reviews, plus numerous classified studies. A partial listing providing some indication of the breadth of his research interests follows:
PRESIDENTIAL WAR: THE POLITICS OF AMERICAN MILITARY INTERVENTION, in preparation (author)
PRISONERS OF WAR? NATION-STATES IN THE MODERN ERA, Lexington, MA: D.C. Heath/Lexington Books, 1990 (coeditor and contributor)
THE RECOURSE TO WAR: AN APPRAISAL OF THE "WEINBERGER DOCTRINE." Carlisle Barracks, PA: U.S. Army War College, 1988 (coeditor and contributor)
ALLIANCES IN U.S. FOREIGN POLICY: ISSUES IN THE QUEST FOR COLLECTIVE DEFENSE. Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1988 (editor and contributor)
THE STRATEGIC DIMENSION OF MILITARY MANPOWER, Cambridge, MA: Ballinger, 1987 (coeditor and contributor)
POLARITY AND WAR: THE CHANGING STRUCTURE OF INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT, Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1985 (editor and contributor)
GREAT POWER GAMES: THE SINO-SOVIET-AMERICAN "POWER TRANSITION," Washington, DC: Council on American Affairs, 1982 (author)
DEFENSE MANPOWER POLICY: A CRITICAL REAPPRAISAL, Philadelphia, PA: Foreign Policy Research Institute Monograph No. 22, 1978 (author)
BLUE-COLLAR SOLDIERS? UNIONIZATION AND THE U.S. MILITARY, Boulder, CO: Westview Press, 1978 (editor and contributor)
"The American Domestic Distemper," EUROPE RELOADED (November 22, 2017)
"Demystifying 9/11: Israel and the Tactics of Mistake," VETERANS TODAY (June 27, 2011)
"The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism," COUNTERCURRENTS (March 20, 2010)
" I express my Jewish identity in cuisine, not foreign policy," MONDOWEISS (July 9, 2009)
" The Two-State Delusion," SALEM-NEWS.COM (May 12, 2009)
"Denied Infamy: Israeli Attack on the USS Liberty," INFORMATION CLEARING HOUSE (June 8, 2009)
"...And military shenanigans," THE WASHINGTON TIMES (September 16, 1994)
" 'Vietnam Syndrome' is alive and well," COMMERCIAL APPEAL (October 15, 1993)
"As Others See Us: The American Distemper in Foreign Policy," TELICOM (March 1992)
"Red Star Falling? The Soviet 'Small War' in Afghanistan," SMALL WARS & INSURGENCIES (April 1990)
"Border Wars," JOURNAL OF SOCIAL, POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC STUDIES (Winter 1989/1990)
"Of Smoke and Mirrors," A Review Essay on DISCRIMINATE DETERRENCE: REPORT OF THE COMMISSION ON INTEGRATED LONG-RANGE STRATEGY, in PARAMETERS (March 1989)
"Policy and Strategy for the 1980s: Preparing for Low-Intensity Conflicts," in R. H. Shultz, Jr. and R. A. Hunt (eds), LESSONS FROM AN UNCONVENTIONAL WAR (New York: Pergamon, 1982) (co-author)
"Conflict Studies: A Tale of Two Cities," in B. Newman and A. Zimmerman (eds), PROCEEDINGS of the First Conference on Conflict Studies in Education (London: ISCCS, 1981)
"From Bosnia to Sarajevo: A Comparative Discussion of Interstate Crises,' JOURNAL OF CONFLICT RESOLUTION (March 1975).
References_________________________________________________
1. Entry in Who's Who in the East (Willamette IL: Macmillan, 1990, 23rd ed., p.756
2. Wiarda, Howard J. (2010-05-10) Think Tanks and Foreign Policy: The Foreign Policy Research Institute and Presidential Politics Lexington Books
3. Superior Civilian Service Award for "Dr. Alan Ned Sabrosky, Carlisle PA: US Army War College (1988-12-31)
4. Who's Who in th East, op. cit.
5. Chan, Steve (2013-08-22). Enduring Rivalries in the Asia-Pacific Cambridge University Press.
6. Vasquez, John A. (1993) The War Puzzle Cambridge University Press.
7. Sabrosky, Alan N. (1978) Blue-Collar Soldiers: Unionization and the US Military Westview Press; and Sabrosky, Alan N. (1982) "The American All-Volunteer Force" in Harries-Jenkins, Gwyn (ed.) Western Armed Forces in the 1980s London, Macmillan.
8. See e.g. his "Red Star Falling? The Soviet 'Small War' in Afghanistan" (April 1990) Journal of Small Wars and Insurgencies; "South Africa: Adrift, But to Where?" (1991) Telicom; "Border Wars" (1989/1990) Journal of Social, Political, and Economic Studies; "NATO: A House Divided?" (1984) Atlantic Quarterly; and "Allies, Clients, and Encumbrances" (Summer 1980) International Security Review.
9. See e.g. his "Demystifying 9/11: Israel and the Tactics of Mistake" (June 27, 2011) Veterans Today; "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism" (March 20, 2010) Countercurrents; "Israel's Gaza Blockade: Letting the Chips Fall Where They May" (June 12, 2010) Salem-News.com; "Bibi Netanyahu: A Knave of Ghosts and Shadows" (October 4, 2009) Uprooted Palestinian; and "Obama Hits the Wailing Wall" (June 14, 2009) Khaleej Times.
10. Flesch, Daniel (2015) "Slandering Americans Who Fight for Israel" Commentary 139; "Decade of Deceit: Anti-Semitic 9/11 Conspiracy Theories 10 Years Later" (2011-08-30) Anti-Defamation League [PDF]; and "ADL: Anti-Semitic 9/11 theories still strong 10 years on" (2011) The Jerusalem Post.
11. See his "I express my Jewish identity in cuisine, not foreign policy" (July 9, 2009) Mondoweiss. Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 21:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 01:12, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
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Please could an admin add the AfD template to the article? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Sabrosky exists. Thanks. Yngvadottir ( talk) 19:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
{{
edit fully-protected}}
rather than {{
adminhelp}}
, see
WP:PER. --
Redrose64 🌹 (
talk)
20:53, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
I've rewritten the article step by step at User:Yngvadottir/Alan Sabrosky rewrite. I'm going to make one more tweak today (I'm citing a source that doesnot mention his retirement) and then add the full list of books from Docbrosk1941's proposed version above; those I have not mentioned in paragraphs I did not find reviews or citations for, but WorldCat confirms the years and will enable me to add ISBNs. A significant number of things, including the classified research (obviously) but also the birth year, I did not find in sources. My thinking is that if the article is kept at AfD, the birth year could be added from Who's Who and I am still hoping to find an archived faculty biography, perhaps through Docbrosk1941, that will add a bit more on teaching positions, etc. And Seraphim System appears to have access to databases that I don't that may include another conference biography or two. But we have comparably slim biographies for many living academics, as I said above.
I have left out Marine officer, in deference to Docbrosk1941, but several sources do refer to him asa retired Marine officer.
So is this better?I believe it better demonstrates notability, with the named chair and the reviews of books. Yngvadottir ( talk) 19:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you so much. I am not looking at the rewritten version until it is posted. I have found some individual listings of my academic appointments but no single biography. But anything that replaces what was there in the past is a definite improvement. I do suggest that whatever is posted be protected, or we will find the same vandalism that plagued Seraphim System coming to the fore again. But I cannot thank you enough! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 13:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
Something I found on my late father (Curtis W Sabrosky) included a link to me that appears to have several spources that may help with birth date and other info - I did not look at them be forward them for your information: https://www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/curtis-williams-sabrosky_184094172 . Cannot help about the retired officer, different people have called me everything from a high school dropout enlisted in the Marines in lie of jail, to the youngest major general in the US Army. Go figure. But one or more of thes records (4-5 come up by clicking on my name on this page) may help. Appreciate you! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 14:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
And I did recall a "Letter to the Editor" published in "Leatherneck" magazine about 4 yrs ago that affirms mi military service in the Marines, service in Vietnam and graduation from the Army War College - it is the fourth letter and the bio info is at the end inserted by the editor: https://www.mca-marines.org/leatherneck/2014/02/leatherneck Hope this helps a bit! Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 15:58, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
extended discussion about JTA
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Oppose per Yngvadottir I tried, but this discussion is going nowhere. Seraphim System ( talk) 13:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Not about the article
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@ E.M.Gregory: You say above that the subject of the article has been using this page for promotion for years. Let's see some evidence to support that, please. Yngvadottir ( talk) 16:26, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
One editor suggested I weigh in. So let me do this. First, not only did I never use Wiki for promotion of anything, I have been surprised that anything on me was there - I never looked for it. An earlier article was SO bad I argued for its removal a few years ago, and that finally happened. This version also surprised me, and while better needs the sort of rewrite being proposed. The notion that I have been "using" Wikipedia for anything is simply ludicrous and suggests a degree of bias on the part of the person who made that allegation that ought to have him/her removed as a Wiki editor.
Second is the question of my own ethics and perspective. Essentially I came to the entire 9/11 controversy midway through 2009 - hardly an issue spanning decades. I wrote an article on the subject, "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism," https://www.countercurrents.org/sabrosky200310.htm More specifically (having read the comments), it might be worth noting that "Veterans Today" is hardly an antisemitic website, given the number of Israelis and Jews who write for it. It is anti-Zionist (as am I), which Israel's advocates assert is the same thing - which is nonsense, can one imagine (e.g.) equating a condemnation of British imperialism with a prejudice against the British people? And besides, the Middle East constitutes a very small part of the subject matter in "Veterans Today" anyway. Same with the blog called "Mondoweiss." It is hardly pro-Palestinian, like VT it is more anti-Zionist, but looks at many more issues - and it is worth noting that the three guys running "Mondoweiss" are all American Jews.
The real problem that Israel and its supporters face is that it - and they - cannot afford an open disclosure of what Israel is and does. Many people in other countries realize this. South Africa today, for instance, has the most active BDS movement in the world and a government openly critical of Israel as an apartheid state - and whatever South Africa's other failings, it knows apartheid when it sees it. Americans don't see. hear or read about this pn TV or in the press. Look at the ownership and you'll understand why. I do point out these things, plus the fact that dual Israeli citizens litter the US government, and that the official US government case foe 9/11 is a bad joke - how (e.g.) could someone who could not fly a single-engine propeller Cessna fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon?? Pointing out these things gets one named as a "conspiracy theorist" (in an attempt to belittle their arguments), but as a Danish chemical engineer said on Danish TV, there is only one conspiracy theory out there, and that is the one put out by the US Government. Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 23:25, 5 August 2018 (UTC) Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 23:27, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
So what do most of the RS talk about, seems to be his recent work. So if we removes all the conspiracy stuff what are wee in fact left with? Slatersteven ( talk) 09:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC) People please remember this is not a forum. Slatersteven ( talk) 09:04, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E.M.Gregory: Let's try to compile a list here for weighting. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
That's what I've got so far. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:55, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
I have never quite understood why questioning an official government account of anything ought to be considered a "conspiracy theory," other than as an exercise in trying to belittle the argument or to demean its author. Certainly the propensity to call me (and many, many others) "conspiracy theorists" or "racists" or "Anti-Semites" is in large part due to an inability on the part of our critics to respond substantively to the arguments we present. Happens all the time.
I would like to make two observations. One is that if one excludes Israeli or Jewish dominated sources like JTA, Commentary, ADL & SPLC (and please remember I am half Jewish...) allegations of Anti-Semitism are at best (or worst) very sparse. The other is that I made my position on Jews and Anti-Semitish very colear in the published article I noted above on "The Complicated Faces of Anti-Semitism." Please do me the courtesy of reading it. If you then consider me truly Anti-Semitic, regardless of my own views, then kill the damn article. Otherwise please evaluate it on whatever other (and more realistic) standards you choose to use. Thank you, Alan Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 14:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
"Sabrosky, a regular columnist for the Veterans Today, is currently one of the most cited sources for anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories. Sabrosky, like Duff, typically ties these theories to other anti-Israel themes. When Sabrosky alleges that Israel and the Mossad were behind 9/11, he inevitably brings up Israel's alleged treatment of the Palestinians or its attacks on Gaza. Sabrosky has repeatedly made comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany, in which Israel fares far worse than the Nazi regime in his weighing."and
"that the Mossad and U.S government officials (namely Jewish neo-conservatives) were responsible for the 9/11 attacks and carried them out for Israel's benefit"2011 report. Conspiracy theories are described as such not since they challenge a government view, but since they contradict established fact. As for sources - we do not exclude sources on the basis of being "Jewish dominated" nor would this seem to describe IB Times, Business Insider, or Le Monde. Icewhiz ( talk) 14:49, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
Anti-Defamation League named him as a key figure in anti-Semitic 9/11 conspiracy theories.Seraphim System ( talk) 16:39, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
In the recent, no consensus AfD, I switched what had been my very firm "delete" opinion to "keep" when an editor who had been doggedly arguing "keep" turned up the fact that Sabrosky once held a named chair. However, in the process of looking for sources on Sabrosky's conspiracy theories as requested by editors above, I stumbled into the fact that the named chair in question does not appear to have been a full professorship. It does, of course, happen that a college has an named endowment used to fund for a lecturer, or researcher or position at less than the distinguished professor level (many post-doc positions are endowed and "named" in this sense), but the automatic pass in WP:NACADEMIC.5 is restricted to chairs at the full professor level. (Think Tanks and Foreign Policy: The Foreign Policy Research Institute and Presidential Politics; Howard J. Wiarda,Lexington Books, 2010. p. 26) According to Wiarda: "During most of the 1970s he had been a research associate at FPRI but he had never achieved the status among peers and associates in Philadelphia (FPRI) that comes from a full, tenured position at a major university. He taught for a time at Catholic University in Washington D.C., was an adjunct professor at Georgetown, and was listed during FPRI days as a "lecturer" at Penn. Sabrosky had a respectable publications record mainly focused on alliance systems, prisoners of war, and unionization in the U.S. military, but no breakthrough or pioneering works. He stayed only for about one year at FPRI before he, too, decamped, first to Washington D.C. for a year, and then finding a permanent job as director of studies at the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle Barracks Pennsylvania." E.M.Gregory ( talk) 09:59, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
"Uniquely among academic institutions, USAWC chair holders receive an actual chair, courtesy of the Army War College Foundation"- I'm not sure this is equivalent to an actual endowed chair at a major university. Icewhiz ( talk) 10:10, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
E.M.Gregory, I'm sorry I have to ask you to tone it down a bit. You said the subject had been self-promoting in article space for years; as the president's lawyer said, either put up or shut up (sorry, that's what he said)--you've offered no evidence, even when asked, and if there isn't any, please retract it. And y'all please be careful with accusations of antisemitism: it's a heavy charge, so please keep it to the theories if that's properly verified (a look at the article suggests that RS say that's the case), and don't play the man. Thank you. Drmies ( talk) 17:08, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
If kept, the article would have to be sourced to articles that use the phrasing I use aboveand this seems like a continuation of that. Right now, I think it's best to prepare Yngvadottir's rewrite for posting. Let's try to stay focused on that. Seraphim System ( talk) 19:03, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
@ E.M.Gregory: In fact, looking at the section most of it seems to be well-cited. Can you tell us which citations specifically have errors so we can fix them? I will agree that Veterans Today should not be cited, but the only other cite I see directly to Sabrosky is for the primary article Treason, Betrayal and Deceit: The Road to 9/11 and Beyond - this may be SYNTH, as the article does not seem to be named in the cited secondary sources. If a secondary source can't be found this should probably be reworded. Seraphim System ( talk) 18:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
Article will need major revisions for accuracy and to give WP:DUE to the coverage his (redacted) 9/11 conspiracy theory advocacy has gotten.An admin was consulted about the application of C5 and confirmed that the named chair appears to the be the type of named chair covered by WP:NPROF. You should have dropped this then. I'm not going to continue replying to this. I can't even quote your discussion comments without accidentally repeating your BLP violations. I think if it doesn't stop this needs to go to AE. Seraphim System ( talk) 19:42, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
when describing fringe theories. No one is promoting fringe theories. The only thing it is cited for is that Sabrosky had won "the Superior Civilian Service Award". The quote from Sabrosky is sourced to an independent source - I don't know why Yngvadottir changed the cite to Veterans Today because it is also quoted in the Commentary article. The Veterans Today cite can be removed without losing much, the only thing we need VT for is the "Superior Civilian Service Award" (for which there is almost definitely another source somewhere that is not easily accessible). Seraphim System ( talk) 21:20, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
"virulently anti-Semitic website Veterans Today"[36], per IB Times -
the anti-Semitic Veterans Today[37], per ToI -
"an extremist whose bland-sounding website, Veterans Today, is a clearinghouse of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.[38], per VICE -
"the conspiracy-oriented Veterans Today"[39], per Salon -
"the leftist conspiracy website Veterans Today"[40], per Politico (quite in depth coverage of this site) -
"Veterans Today is a homegrown American site that was founded in 2003 in opposition to the invasion of Iraq and soon began publishing wild conspiracy theories[41]. This site can not be considered a RS even for the byline of the author (besides WP:FRIND precluding use of conspiracy theories as sources). We do have actual WP:RS saying Sabrosky published such and such on Veterans Today, however Veterans Today itself is not a reliable source even for the byline. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:02, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
You know, much as I would prefer to watch this exercise unfold (and I appreciate all of the effort the editors are putting into this, no matter what their opinions of me professionally), I am simply not going to sit back and let these allegations of anti-Semitism go without a response. First, because anyone reading what I write and who knows me understands those allegations are nonsense - and not just because I have some Jewish heritage. Second, go to "Veterans Today" - the website, not comments on the website - and look at the material. Most of it has nothing to do with the Middle East or 9/11, many of the writers are Israelis or non-Israeli Jews (not great candidates for an anti-Semitic site, no?), and those of us who do sometimes address those subjects are generally anti-Zionists and not supportive of the US Government "war on terror" - but why should a refusal to accept ANY government explanaton for anything put one beyond the pale? And last, tyou do find sources saying those unpleasant things about me and/or "Veterans Today," but there are two things to remember: most of them come from a narrow part of the political spectrum, and none of them is a military journal - you might ask yourselves why NONE of the military journals in the US share the views of (e.g.) the ADL or Politico or Commentary or the SPLC, which share a lot of the same leadership? You think they might know better what those of us who write on these subjects are about? Cheers, Alan Docbrosk1941 ( talk) 17:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
I just saw an internet meme to that effect, and came here to see if there is any truth to it. The Article is very sparse. 1) Is there any truth to this? 2) If there is, should that be included in the Article? 3) If there isn't, should the fact that it's not true be included in the Article? 4) In general, in Terms of Wikipedia Policy, is there any guidance with regard to Articles being used as a means by which to correct "fake news", i.e. there's a popular rumor or belief that's wrong. Does the popularity of the rumor and/or the quality of it's wrongness give some kind of "notability" threshold to include some kind of correction in the Article? This is the 3rd time in about 2 weeks I've experienced this kind of thing, and I'm wondering about Wikipedia Policy in general. Is it commonly done? Occasionally done? NEVER done? Etc... I can see the obvious downside to addressing every flea-bitten rumor, but can also see the consequences of passively allowing such a rumor to continue unchecked. Tym Whittier ( talk) 18:35, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
I'd like to reopen the discussion of replacing the article with the version created by Yngvadottir [42]. Naraht ( talk) 19:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I've just finished reading some of Ronnie Unz's self-citations contained within his op-ed entitled 'American Pravda: Mossad Assasinations' from January 27, 2020. Unz writes the following:
"... Dr. Alan Sabrosky, former Director of Studies at the US Army War College, stepped forward and publicly declared that the Israeli Mossad had very likely been responsible for the 9/11 attacks."
Sabrosky wrote the following:
"Many years ago I read a fascinating discussion of the “tactics of mistake.” This essentially entailed using a target’s prejudices and preconceptions to mislead them as to the origin and intent of the attack, entrapping them in a tactical situation that later worked to the attacker’s strategic advantage.
This is what unfolded in the 9/11 attacks that led us into the matrix of wars and conflicts, present (Afghanistan and Iraq), planned (Iran and Syria) and projected (Jordan and Egypt), that benefit Israel and no other country — although I concede that many private contractors and politicians are doing very well for themselves out of the death and misery of others."
Cite error: There are <ref>
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https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-mossad-assassinations/#the-9-11-attacks-who-did-it
Cite error: There are <ref>
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https://dissidentvoice.org/2011/06/demystifying-911-israel-and-the-tactics-of-mistake/