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Just for the record, Al Jolson never sings the theme. He does however, sing as New York is first shown to the audience. ViceroyInterus 23:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a good article but we need to be careful of exaggeration. For example, ragtime was already all the rage even in Britain before Jolson had any influence, and I'm sure that it must have been in America
I think "he was credited with single-handedly etc etc" is non-encyclopedic expression Johncmullen1960 ( talk) 08:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the relevancy or sourcing of the "most Jews in the arts didn't support Coolidge" remark. It's probably true, but I wonder if it is a proper comment to make. What do you think? Any thoughts on this -- Mantanmoreland 21:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree; it is not encyclopedic or proven, even if probably true. Johncmullen1960 ( talk) 08:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Blackface is today viewed by many as racially insensitive." My concern is that "viewed by many" as opposed to 'virtually all' seems to dull the inherent racism of blackface. I suggest a change, and would like to hear the thoughts of others. 75.47.152.82 02:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, a sense of "historical context" tells you that "blackface" comes from the tradition of the minstrel show. Isn't it accurate to say that minstrel shows perpetuated a convenient and cruel racial stereotype and, thus, were "inherently racist"? That doesn't mean minstrel shows weren't skilled entertainment or art, but they were what they were; there is no reason not to admit that out of fear of being labelled overly sensitive or "politically correct." Jeffmatt 05:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that there is here confusion here between intentional and unintentional racism; that is to say, an act need not be intentionally racist in order to be classified as racist. Take, for example, a 3-year-old caucasian child uttering the slur: "That's a chink, mommy," upon seeing a Korean person--that child most likely is not be aware that the word "chink" is almost universally considered a slur, yet the child's act should still be considered racist. Regardless of whether or not Al Jolson consciously intended to demean black americans, his acts were demeaning acts. Indeed, that black americans felt obligated to darken themselves in order to perform blackface indicates that the entire practice itself was based upon powerful ideals of what colors people should look like ("black" not "brown"; "white" not "pink") and how those people of those colors should act--ideals that were most-likely so powerful that even those sympathetic were unaware of their being blind. The above argument, which seems to be about whether or not Jolson was a racist is in fact an argument about whether or not Jolson was an intentional racist (which, I would argue--considering his upbringing--he was not). That he was an unintentional racist seems irrefutable (which is not to say that I don't expect someone to yet try and refute it). 68.49.252.53 ( talk) 20:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Racism must be intentional"? Huh? Somebody needs to take a social studies course. The majority of racism (and bigotry in general) is deeply ingrained and not necessarily intentional at all, and the blackface tradition is an undeniable part of that. Look into research on microaggressions, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.89.70 ( talk) 22:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Setting aside the arguments for or against the racism of blackface, the following "sources" cited in order to substantiate the quote are fallacious; in none of the "sources" are a person's ethnicity or gender emblemmatic of mainstream attitudes regarding ethnic or gender stereotypes (which is the main argument against contemporary accusations of racism in blackface), so the quote remains unsubstantiated. I have removed it. The quote and "sources" are as follows: "[9] Nor is it considered offensive today if blacks, Asians, or Latinos act in traditionally white roles[10][11][12][13] or even when actors of one sex impersonate those of another.[14][15] Kemet
what exactly do we mean here when latinos and blacks play white rolls-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 19:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
1) HarveyCarter ( talk · contribs) and all of his sockpuppets are EXPRESSLY banned for life.
2) Be on the look out for any edits from these IP addresses:
I've removed a link to the "Great Song Stylists Site" ( http://great-song-stylists-uk.com/) which is just a spam link - completely unrelated to anything to do with Al Jolson. Perhaps it was once a real site who's owner let the domain registration lapse? Pinglis 08:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 10:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
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It looks like the article is filling up with non-free images, although there are a fair number of free images of Jolson (a few of which are already on Commons). Remember that "fair use" images should be used only sparingly and only when there is no reasonable free alternative. -- Infrogmation ( talk) 02:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Using guidelines suggested by Wikipedia, I made a number of revisions to the introduction:
Any improvement on the intro is welcomed and I also think the body of the article needs some reorganization and cleaning up. Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Archive of image-related messages [ Archive - Images] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwatcher1 ( talk • contribs) 19:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Wonder Bar.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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So there's no confusion about the edit comment relating to the last changes, my toungue-in-cheek note referred to the phrase, "... the two quickly began a relationship with each other." The change I made was removing the words "each other." Hence the comment, "who else?"
The majority of sources for well-known Americans born outside the country who immigrated when still a child are "XXX-born American." I can list numerous famous people and encyclopedic or other references to support this. Whether it's a moot point depends on each person but the common usage is "American." It's also the basis of the "melting pot" philosophy to remove labels, not add them. Hence, until others can offer some proof that a young child or infant, born in Russia for example, is not a Russian-born American, I propose restoring to common terminology. If anyone wants cites per above, just ask. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 21:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)
This is obviously one of those situations you hear about where citing Wikipedia is dangerous. First of all, the definition in that article is uncited, so anyone could have written it. Besides it's doubtful accuracy, it has two notices just above it questioning its neutrality and unknown sources through lack of cites. In any case, if we were to respect that definition, the only people in this country without hyphenated nationalities would be our native Indians. I'm not sure I would like that, nor would a lot of Americans. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 01:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Now it's saying "Al Jolson (May 28, 1886 – October 23, 1950) was a Lithuanian singer, comedian and actor." How ridiculous. He was born in Lithuania, yes, but as far as the world is concerned, he was an American entertainer because he lived there from the age of 5. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 12:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, whoever wrote this decided that Birth Of A Nation is "glorifying" the KKK and White Supremacy. Wrong. It was actually more of a satire on prejudice against African Americans, and D.W Griffith actually released another film a few years later entitled Intolerance to demonstrate against the effects of racial prejudice... so this is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.88.182.72 ( talk) 02:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
"black" should be capitalized as "Black" when referring to racial identification, it shows respect. 69.235.18.21 ( talk) 17:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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Srednik (or Sredniki), dominant polish version then, some 40 km west auf Kaunas, right bank of Neman river, then Kovno Governorate. No doubt. -- 129.187.244.28 ( talk) 13:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
For the 3rd time in a row you are adding a cite tag to a sentence that has the source, along with a link. If you click on it you'll get the source. You'll also notice that the sentence you keep moving to the end was also in the beginning paragraph of the source. Can you please explain? BTW, you added some good improvements and corrections to Kazan. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Al's date of birth has long been in dispute. However, I was under the impression that it was settled when his draft card was uncovered, and it showed his birthdate as May 1886 -- omitting the date. Unfortunately I can't access the site where the draft card is accessible. However, once I do, I think might want to make reference to that. I do know that he listed his name on this draft card as "albert jolson."-- Mantanmoreland 18:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
A possible reason for differences in birth year: Russia did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1918. — Bobopaedia 16:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Jolson never knew his date of birth, as registration was not compulsory in Russia. According to Michael Freedland, he guessed 1886, and then chose May 26th because he liked the idea of a spring birthday. 86.183.206.77 ( talk) 15:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I have read all the arguments regarding this article's NPOV, or lack thereof, and while I think the article drives home an important point - that Al Jolson's work, much like, say, Uncle Tom's Cabin, was progressive for its time but is now seen as offensive - it also seems completely intellectually dishonest to block any attempts at including modern perceptions of blackface, a type of entertainment of which Jolson is the most well-known practitioner.
Just as an example, here is a list of all New York Times articles that mention Al Jolson: http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/j/al_jolson/index.html
The vast majority of the articles which deal primarily with Jolson include at least some mention of the modern perception of Jolson's blackface routine.
"[Al Jolson is s]imultaneously one of the most significant and most embarrassing show business figures of the 20th century," and "what once seemed progressive — a way of introducing African-American music to a wider public — now seems anything but." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/movies/homevideo/18kehr.html
"...any honest attempt to rehabilitate Jolson's reputation cannot avoid the race issue. In Jolson's time, blackface was an accepted theatrical convention, with practitioners in both races. To contemporary sensibilities, however, the tradition is bound to embarrass or offend, and most Jolson impersonators shun it." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/22/theater/theater-can-t-keep-him-down-jolson-pops-up-again.html
"Unlike his peers, Mr. Baldwin opts for historical exactitude over the merely sentimental, bringing back an image of Al Jolson that has come to symbolize, for many, the less quaint aspects of the era." http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/22/arts/music-an-incorrect-artifact-with-aging-fans.html
"Indeed, what Jolson intended may be interesting to the scholar or psychologist, but what his use of burnt cork represented to the mass public is a larger issue. Blackface evokes memories of the most unpleasant side of racial relations, and of an age in which white entertainers used the makeup to ridicule black Americans while brazenly borrowing from the rich black musical traditions that were rarely allowed direct expression in mainstream society." http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/22/arts/22GIOI.html?pagewanted=all
I've reached my limit for free NYT articles, so that's all I can find for now, but this is clearly enough to justify inclusion in this entry. Of course, most of these articles also go into great detail about the aspects of blackface which seem to have been "lost in translation" from that era into this one, but the fact remains that Jolson's routine, and those who mimic it, are now seen to be derogatory towards black people. Again, to block any mention of this would be an extreme example of intellectual dishonesty. I wanted to clear up the issue here before making any changes to the article so as to prevent an edit war.
Oh, and rap music has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not blackface is perceived to be offensive; furthermore, such claims have no business being on this talk page. 216.20.152.85 ( talk) 09:44, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The reference to blackface promoting buffoonery stereotypes is being burried as clauses in sentences arguing forcefully that it was a convention, part of a larger use of costumes and ethnicity, and that it even imbued white performers with a sense of the black man's "cool" and "virility." Moreover, someone is undoing any attempt to include public criticism, such as Frederick Douglass'. Then the justification for blackface is followed by his Jewishness, a guess that he had "incentive" to fight racism supported only by a reference to the KKK, and the fact that he had black friends. This all comes off as incredibly defensive. He popularized blackface. If references are included that justifies the shows, references must be included that critiqued them.
It seems balanced to me now that there is are a couple of historical critiques to go along with the paragraphs of references supporting blackface not being offensive. Both perspectives are important in an article concerning the performer who most popularized and is most associated with blackface performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.90.25 ( talk) 15:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Black rap "music" is a thousand times more offensive and no one from the left is up in arms over that. Christopedia ( talk) 00:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
WP:Categorization of people#General considerations instructs us to "Categorize by those characteristics that make the person notable" - While Jolson was a Freemason, his membership in the fraternity is secondary (or even trivial) to what made him notable. The category should be removed. Blueboar ( talk) 15:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
An editor wrote this in the body in the body of the article, I'm moving it here:
I don't know if this is true or not, partly because I don't know what "belletristic" means, but it seems a fine word that might bear looking up and using in conversation. Whatever it is, the editor makes it sound like something we definitely do not want to be, so if we are being belletristic, we should stop it, and not just in this article. Herostratus ( talk) 15:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know which suite number Jolson was in when he died? According to cemeteryguide.com it was room 1221. They said this is the same suite Roscoe Arbuckle was in with Virginia Rappe during the infamous 1921 party. http://www.cemeteryguide.com/jolson.html Can anyone collaborate on the room number? The article for the hotel says "In 1921, the St. Francis was the scene of Hollywood's first great scandal. The silent film comedian Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle, whose fame at the time rivaled that of Charlie Chaplin, and a number of friends were guests in rooms 1219, 1220 and 1221." Are these connecting suites? -- 98.246.156.76 ( talk) 04:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Referenced in "Jolson" by Michael Freedland. Published by Stein and Day in 1972.
goddamnit somebody fix this racist ass page already — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.155.107 ( talk) 05:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
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I have just removed two tags on the article:
User:Clean Copy has removed NPOV tag for the article, but there has been removal of negative coverage afterwards, including cited portions with extensive supporting material. If the tag is removed, it is important for all editors to work to promote a neutral and balance point of view.
I have removed the following as seeming too trivial and not directly related: Jolson's blackface caricature became the initial logo of Darlie, previously Darkie, a toothpaste which (with a modified logo) remains popular in many Asian countries and is referred to as "Black Man Toothpaste" in China. [1] [2] [3]
If someone really wants to restore it, go for it, I suppose. Clean Copy talk 18:55, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Usually if there's a controversial subject, you include both defenses and criticisms. Thsi article, bizarrely, includes only justifications and defenses of blackface. Must've been written by someone who really liked Al Jolson and didn't care much for other points of view. 68.123.154.74 ( talk) 02:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is the "Legacy and Influence" section ridiculous? He WAS immensely influential. We might not like the blackface stuff (no one today does, quite rightly) but that's how it was then; judge him by the standards of his time, not ours. Yes we see it as racist but apart from the fact that they didn't in the 1920s, it still doesn't mean he wasn't influential. I grew up in the 1960s and even then he was considered a major star by my parents' generation. I can only assume you were born in the last 35 years or so. 86.161.115.170 ( talk) 20:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes there must be some racist stuff we can find for this article to make it less POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.225.145 ( talk) 14:13, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Just for the record, Al Jolson never sings the theme. He does however, sing as New York is first shown to the audience. ViceroyInterus 23:51, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
It's a good article but we need to be careful of exaggeration. For example, ragtime was already all the rage even in Britain before Jolson had any influence, and I'm sure that it must have been in America
I think "he was credited with single-handedly etc etc" is non-encyclopedic expression Johncmullen1960 ( talk) 08:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure of the relevancy or sourcing of the "most Jews in the arts didn't support Coolidge" remark. It's probably true, but I wonder if it is a proper comment to make. What do you think? Any thoughts on this -- Mantanmoreland 21:44, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree; it is not encyclopedic or proven, even if probably true. Johncmullen1960 ( talk) 08:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Blackface is today viewed by many as racially insensitive." My concern is that "viewed by many" as opposed to 'virtually all' seems to dull the inherent racism of blackface. I suggest a change, and would like to hear the thoughts of others. 75.47.152.82 02:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand, a sense of "historical context" tells you that "blackface" comes from the tradition of the minstrel show. Isn't it accurate to say that minstrel shows perpetuated a convenient and cruel racial stereotype and, thus, were "inherently racist"? That doesn't mean minstrel shows weren't skilled entertainment or art, but they were what they were; there is no reason not to admit that out of fear of being labelled overly sensitive or "politically correct." Jeffmatt 05:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that there is here confusion here between intentional and unintentional racism; that is to say, an act need not be intentionally racist in order to be classified as racist. Take, for example, a 3-year-old caucasian child uttering the slur: "That's a chink, mommy," upon seeing a Korean person--that child most likely is not be aware that the word "chink" is almost universally considered a slur, yet the child's act should still be considered racist. Regardless of whether or not Al Jolson consciously intended to demean black americans, his acts were demeaning acts. Indeed, that black americans felt obligated to darken themselves in order to perform blackface indicates that the entire practice itself was based upon powerful ideals of what colors people should look like ("black" not "brown"; "white" not "pink") and how those people of those colors should act--ideals that were most-likely so powerful that even those sympathetic were unaware of their being blind. The above argument, which seems to be about whether or not Jolson was a racist is in fact an argument about whether or not Jolson was an intentional racist (which, I would argue--considering his upbringing--he was not). That he was an unintentional racist seems irrefutable (which is not to say that I don't expect someone to yet try and refute it). 68.49.252.53 ( talk) 20:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
"Racism must be intentional"? Huh? Somebody needs to take a social studies course. The majority of racism (and bigotry in general) is deeply ingrained and not necessarily intentional at all, and the blackface tradition is an undeniable part of that. Look into research on microaggressions, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.115.89.70 ( talk) 22:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Setting aside the arguments for or against the racism of blackface, the following "sources" cited in order to substantiate the quote are fallacious; in none of the "sources" are a person's ethnicity or gender emblemmatic of mainstream attitudes regarding ethnic or gender stereotypes (which is the main argument against contemporary accusations of racism in blackface), so the quote remains unsubstantiated. I have removed it. The quote and "sources" are as follows: "[9] Nor is it considered offensive today if blacks, Asians, or Latinos act in traditionally white roles[10][11][12][13] or even when actors of one sex impersonate those of another.[14][15] Kemet
what exactly do we mean here when latinos and blacks play white rolls-- Wikiscribe ( talk) 19:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
1) HarveyCarter ( talk · contribs) and all of his sockpuppets are EXPRESSLY banned for life.
2) Be on the look out for any edits from these IP addresses:
I've removed a link to the "Great Song Stylists Site" ( http://great-song-stylists-uk.com/) which is just a spam link - completely unrelated to anything to do with Al Jolson. Perhaps it was once a real site who's owner let the domain registration lapse? Pinglis 08:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton ( talk) 10:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 06:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It looks like the article is filling up with non-free images, although there are a fair number of free images of Jolson (a few of which are already on Commons). Remember that "fair use" images should be used only sparingly and only when there is no reasonable free alternative. -- Infrogmation ( talk) 02:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Using guidelines suggested by Wikipedia, I made a number of revisions to the introduction:
Any improvement on the intro is welcomed and I also think the body of the article needs some reorganization and cleaning up. Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Archive of image-related messages [ Archive - Images] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwatcher1 ( talk • contribs) 19:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Wonder Bar.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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So there's no confusion about the edit comment relating to the last changes, my toungue-in-cheek note referred to the phrase, "... the two quickly began a relationship with each other." The change I made was removing the words "each other." Hence the comment, "who else?"
The majority of sources for well-known Americans born outside the country who immigrated when still a child are "XXX-born American." I can list numerous famous people and encyclopedic or other references to support this. Whether it's a moot point depends on each person but the common usage is "American." It's also the basis of the "melting pot" philosophy to remove labels, not add them. Hence, until others can offer some proof that a young child or infant, born in Russia for example, is not a Russian-born American, I propose restoring to common terminology. If anyone wants cites per above, just ask. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 21:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)
This is obviously one of those situations you hear about where citing Wikipedia is dangerous. First of all, the definition in that article is uncited, so anyone could have written it. Besides it's doubtful accuracy, it has two notices just above it questioning its neutrality and unknown sources through lack of cites. In any case, if we were to respect that definition, the only people in this country without hyphenated nationalities would be our native Indians. I'm not sure I would like that, nor would a lot of Americans. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 01:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Now it's saying "Al Jolson (May 28, 1886 – October 23, 1950) was a Lithuanian singer, comedian and actor." How ridiculous. He was born in Lithuania, yes, but as far as the world is concerned, he was an American entertainer because he lived there from the age of 5. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 12:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Well, whoever wrote this decided that Birth Of A Nation is "glorifying" the KKK and White Supremacy. Wrong. It was actually more of a satire on prejudice against African Americans, and D.W Griffith actually released another film a few years later entitled Intolerance to demonstrate against the effects of racial prejudice... so this is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.88.182.72 ( talk) 02:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
"black" should be capitalized as "Black" when referring to racial identification, it shows respect. 69.235.18.21 ( talk) 17:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
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Srednik (or Sredniki), dominant polish version then, some 40 km west auf Kaunas, right bank of Neman river, then Kovno Governorate. No doubt. -- 129.187.244.28 ( talk) 13:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
For the 3rd time in a row you are adding a cite tag to a sentence that has the source, along with a link. If you click on it you'll get the source. You'll also notice that the sentence you keep moving to the end was also in the beginning paragraph of the source. Can you please explain? BTW, you added some good improvements and corrections to Kazan. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:19, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Al's date of birth has long been in dispute. However, I was under the impression that it was settled when his draft card was uncovered, and it showed his birthdate as May 1886 -- omitting the date. Unfortunately I can't access the site where the draft card is accessible. However, once I do, I think might want to make reference to that. I do know that he listed his name on this draft card as "albert jolson."-- Mantanmoreland 18:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
A possible reason for differences in birth year: Russia did not adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1918. — Bobopaedia 16:41, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Jolson never knew his date of birth, as registration was not compulsory in Russia. According to Michael Freedland, he guessed 1886, and then chose May 26th because he liked the idea of a spring birthday. 86.183.206.77 ( talk) 15:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
I have read all the arguments regarding this article's NPOV, or lack thereof, and while I think the article drives home an important point - that Al Jolson's work, much like, say, Uncle Tom's Cabin, was progressive for its time but is now seen as offensive - it also seems completely intellectually dishonest to block any attempts at including modern perceptions of blackface, a type of entertainment of which Jolson is the most well-known practitioner.
Just as an example, here is a list of all New York Times articles that mention Al Jolson: http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/j/al_jolson/index.html
The vast majority of the articles which deal primarily with Jolson include at least some mention of the modern perception of Jolson's blackface routine.
"[Al Jolson is s]imultaneously one of the most significant and most embarrassing show business figures of the 20th century," and "what once seemed progressive — a way of introducing African-American music to a wider public — now seems anything but." http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/movies/homevideo/18kehr.html
"...any honest attempt to rehabilitate Jolson's reputation cannot avoid the race issue. In Jolson's time, blackface was an accepted theatrical convention, with practitioners in both races. To contemporary sensibilities, however, the tradition is bound to embarrass or offend, and most Jolson impersonators shun it." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/22/theater/theater-can-t-keep-him-down-jolson-pops-up-again.html
"Unlike his peers, Mr. Baldwin opts for historical exactitude over the merely sentimental, bringing back an image of Al Jolson that has come to symbolize, for many, the less quaint aspects of the era." http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/22/arts/music-an-incorrect-artifact-with-aging-fans.html
"Indeed, what Jolson intended may be interesting to the scholar or psychologist, but what his use of burnt cork represented to the mass public is a larger issue. Blackface evokes memories of the most unpleasant side of racial relations, and of an age in which white entertainers used the makeup to ridicule black Americans while brazenly borrowing from the rich black musical traditions that were rarely allowed direct expression in mainstream society." http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/22/arts/22GIOI.html?pagewanted=all
I've reached my limit for free NYT articles, so that's all I can find for now, but this is clearly enough to justify inclusion in this entry. Of course, most of these articles also go into great detail about the aspects of blackface which seem to have been "lost in translation" from that era into this one, but the fact remains that Jolson's routine, and those who mimic it, are now seen to be derogatory towards black people. Again, to block any mention of this would be an extreme example of intellectual dishonesty. I wanted to clear up the issue here before making any changes to the article so as to prevent an edit war.
Oh, and rap music has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not blackface is perceived to be offensive; furthermore, such claims have no business being on this talk page. 216.20.152.85 ( talk) 09:44, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The reference to blackface promoting buffoonery stereotypes is being burried as clauses in sentences arguing forcefully that it was a convention, part of a larger use of costumes and ethnicity, and that it even imbued white performers with a sense of the black man's "cool" and "virility." Moreover, someone is undoing any attempt to include public criticism, such as Frederick Douglass'. Then the justification for blackface is followed by his Jewishness, a guess that he had "incentive" to fight racism supported only by a reference to the KKK, and the fact that he had black friends. This all comes off as incredibly defensive. He popularized blackface. If references are included that justifies the shows, references must be included that critiqued them.
It seems balanced to me now that there is are a couple of historical critiques to go along with the paragraphs of references supporting blackface not being offensive. Both perspectives are important in an article concerning the performer who most popularized and is most associated with blackface performance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.123.90.25 ( talk) 15:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Black rap "music" is a thousand times more offensive and no one from the left is up in arms over that. Christopedia ( talk) 00:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
WP:Categorization of people#General considerations instructs us to "Categorize by those characteristics that make the person notable" - While Jolson was a Freemason, his membership in the fraternity is secondary (or even trivial) to what made him notable. The category should be removed. Blueboar ( talk) 15:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
An editor wrote this in the body in the body of the article, I'm moving it here:
I don't know if this is true or not, partly because I don't know what "belletristic" means, but it seems a fine word that might bear looking up and using in conversation. Whatever it is, the editor makes it sound like something we definitely do not want to be, so if we are being belletristic, we should stop it, and not just in this article. Herostratus ( talk) 15:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know which suite number Jolson was in when he died? According to cemeteryguide.com it was room 1221. They said this is the same suite Roscoe Arbuckle was in with Virginia Rappe during the infamous 1921 party. http://www.cemeteryguide.com/jolson.html Can anyone collaborate on the room number? The article for the hotel says "In 1921, the St. Francis was the scene of Hollywood's first great scandal. The silent film comedian Roscoe Fatty Arbuckle, whose fame at the time rivaled that of Charlie Chaplin, and a number of friends were guests in rooms 1219, 1220 and 1221." Are these connecting suites? -- 98.246.156.76 ( talk) 04:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Referenced in "Jolson" by Michael Freedland. Published by Stein and Day in 1972.
goddamnit somebody fix this racist ass page already — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.155.107 ( talk) 05:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
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I have just removed two tags on the article:
User:Clean Copy has removed NPOV tag for the article, but there has been removal of negative coverage afterwards, including cited portions with extensive supporting material. If the tag is removed, it is important for all editors to work to promote a neutral and balance point of view.
I have removed the following as seeming too trivial and not directly related: Jolson's blackface caricature became the initial logo of Darlie, previously Darkie, a toothpaste which (with a modified logo) remains popular in many Asian countries and is referred to as "Black Man Toothpaste" in China. [1] [2] [3]
If someone really wants to restore it, go for it, I suppose. Clean Copy talk 18:55, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
References
Usually if there's a controversial subject, you include both defenses and criticisms. Thsi article, bizarrely, includes only justifications and defenses of blackface. Must've been written by someone who really liked Al Jolson and didn't care much for other points of view. 68.123.154.74 ( talk) 02:13, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Why is the "Legacy and Influence" section ridiculous? He WAS immensely influential. We might not like the blackface stuff (no one today does, quite rightly) but that's how it was then; judge him by the standards of his time, not ours. Yes we see it as racist but apart from the fact that they didn't in the 1920s, it still doesn't mean he wasn't influential. I grew up in the 1960s and even then he was considered a major star by my parents' generation. I can only assume you were born in the last 35 years or so. 86.161.115.170 ( talk) 20:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes there must be some racist stuff we can find for this article to make it less POV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.225.145 ( talk) 14:13, 25 August 2015 (UTC)