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I had a go at trying to fix this up, but a major issue was the use of sourcing like this article, which is extremely partisan, at times at the expense of accuracy. Aside from general cleanup, expansion, and wikification, the major change I made was the deletion of a paragraph [sourced to the above article, and less than accurate itself] which was complaining generally about restrictions in the West Bank, but which didn't specifically deal with this village. There are many more aspects of general restrictions that can be written about, and they are/should be discussed in centralised places like the West Bank entry or others dealing with such information, and not dispersed piecemeal among many different entries. Let me know if there are any other questions you may have, as I believe that my every edit was made in line with proper sourcing. Tewfik Talk 04:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I have replaced the old Hebrew with Canaanite exactly once at the Jenin page simply because the old Hebrew name was not sourced and the Canaanite one (exactly the same as the Old Hebrew listed) was. Find a source that says that the Old Hebrew name was Ein Ganeem and you can reinclude it. That, however, has nothing to do with this page. The book I am using is a valid source (certainly more valid that no source). Your reverts and claims of POV are unfounded as usual. Tiamut 15:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
PS. Tewfik, I did not mass revert. I incorporated some of your changes. Try using the talk instead of just edit summary lines. Thank you. Tiamut 15:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
== Contentious passage ==
The following was removed by Isarig but I contend that it is completely accurate and appropriate for inclusion:
-- Abnn 15:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Incorporation of Abnn and Tewfik and my own edits is below. Those with objections are invited to discuss them below as well.
After the 1948 termination of the British Mandate of Palestine, Jordan took over al-Jib as part of the West Bank, whose control passed to Israel after the 1967 Six-Day war.
The Oslo Accords of the mid-1990s designated al-Jib as part of Area B, giving the Palestinian National Authority control over civilian matters, with Israel retaining control over security matters.
Part of the construction route proposed for the Israeli West Bank barrier during the al-Aqsa Intifada would completely surround al-Jib and two other villages, forming an enclave [2] which B'Tselem refers to as the "Bir Nabala enclave" [3]
B'Tselem notes that residents of the enclave will be prevented from using roads Route 45 North, Route 436 West, and Route 404 (Begin North) East which will be 'For Israeli Use Only.'
Alon Cohen-Lifschitz, an architect from Bimkom, explained that a "fluid traffic project" proposed by the barrier planners would "disenclave the Palestinian villages of Bir Nabala and Al Jib," by building 2 kilometers of road 10 meters below ground level, "closed in and covered with a wire grating, plus two tunnels and a bridge." [1]
B'Tselem writes that even if the roads are built, "construction of the barrier around the Bir Nabala enclave will severely impair the human rights of its residents." The barrier will separate Palestinians in the enclave from East Jerusalem, which has been a traditional center for the villagers. B'Tselem submits that because thousands of the enclave's residents hold Israeli identity cards, they are entitled to free access to the city by law. [3] Tiamut 19:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
References
UNOCHA
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is not a reliable source for the referenced subject matter. It is an odd place to seek historical, archaeological and related information.
Noted historian Daniel Pipes has said about Mariam Shahin's book, Palestine: A Traveler's Guide:
Perhaps the book's strangest aspect is the pretense that Israel does not exist."
Conceptualized as a propaganda tool, the guidebook contains more than its share of inaccuracies. The first page falsely informs that "Palestine is a Holy Land to Muslims." The assertion that "archeologists have yet to verify the historic existence" of the Temple of Solomon is laughable nonsense. And Lord Balfour was hardly "of Jewish descent."
Daniel Pipes, The Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2006 Vol XIII: No 2 - Doright 02:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The google link is actually ambiguous in that it stated in the title it is called "Palestine: A Guide" but later on it uses the title "Palestine: A Travelers Guide." The book has been lauded in the UK Independent newspaper as I cited above. Anyways, I think the below is great work, and I am sure we can find additional sources for it given time:
-- Abnn 01:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
References
A few quick internet searches shows that nothing in the previous history section was that extraordinary. There are tons of sources to choose from. I probably didn't pick the best two Bible sources, they were just the first in Google for a search, but it is the first time I've tried to cite something to the Bible, there are probably more authoritative/standard sources people on Wikipedia use. Also I sourced some of it to the Britannica article on al-Jib / Gibeon (its the same thing on Britannica), which probably isn't good form. Feel free to help out, and find better citations Jayjg, as you seem to be quite experienced with Wikipedia. -- Abnn 03:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I just found these two stories from Time Magazine from 1957 and 1960 that describe the original discovery of both the Gibeon connection and the Bronze Age findings:
I've integrated them into the article, but not that well. -- Abnn 04:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
More findings. -- Abnn 04:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot of mentions that the bible makes clear that Gibeon was a Canaanite city, but I am not a Bible scholar thus I can't find any high quality sources. The best I have found are these three sites:
I think I need some help here. -- Abnn 04:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Meaning of the name Gibeon:
More on excavation:
A few good sources that I haven't found online:
-- Abnn 04:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Robinson's identification of el-Jib as Gibeon was made in 1838, not 1874. Edward Robinson; Martin Dampies; E. Smith, Extracts from a Journal of Travels in Palestine &c., in 1838; Undertaken for the Illustration of Biblical Geography, Journal of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Vol. 9. (1839), pp. 295-310. -- Zero talk 14:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
References
Almost everything from Tiamut's original text has been confirmed via other sources except for two things:
-- Abnn 05:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I should say that the previous text's claim that "The town was destroyed by the Babylonians in 587, but its ancient remains are still visible" appears to be based strictly on the Bible claims that the Babylonians defeated Jerusalem in 587 combined with the knowledge that al-Jib was a nearby/dependent town. There doesn't seem to be anything else but the Bible for this claim. -- Abnn 05:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Here we go with the two fortresses: "There are here two fortresses, called Upper and Lower Al Jîb (Al Jîb al Faukânî and Al Jîb al Tahtâni), and they stand close one to the other", Yâkût (1225), ii. 170 and Marâsid (1300), i. 276, cited in Guy Le Strange, Palestine under the Moslems, PEF 1890. (Yâkût was a scholar who wrote the pre-eminent geographical work of his time; Marâsid was a geographical book of unknown author). -- Zero talk 14:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I am very reluctant to pass judgement on Shahin's book since I have never seen it. However, one solution to the problem is to replace it with sources that are less open to dispute. I have succeeded in tracking down scholarly sources for everything quoted here from Shahin except for this: "A spiral staircase descending into the cistern was probably built by the Crusaders in the 11th or 12th century CE along with a Crusader-era church." Pitchford dated the spiral staircase much earlier and several recent archaeological encyclopedias that I consulted did not dispute that. So I plan to omit that detail and rewrite everything else based on the sources I found. -- Zero talk 09:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
...is she WP:RS? I see her here, and as self-employed tour-guide and historian, according to her linkedin. Not the best. There should be better sources. Huldra ( talk) 20:58, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
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To editor Tombah: Let's go through all modern Israeli locations and write in the lead of their articles which Palestinian village occupied the same spot only 74 years ago. I know you won't. But somehow it is fine for you to put ancient identifications from thousands of years ago in the lead. Historical information about a site does belong in both cases, but the appropriate place is the history section. The exception is archaeological sites whose only notability is their history. Zero talk 12:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
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![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
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I had a go at trying to fix this up, but a major issue was the use of sourcing like this article, which is extremely partisan, at times at the expense of accuracy. Aside from general cleanup, expansion, and wikification, the major change I made was the deletion of a paragraph [sourced to the above article, and less than accurate itself] which was complaining generally about restrictions in the West Bank, but which didn't specifically deal with this village. There are many more aspects of general restrictions that can be written about, and they are/should be discussed in centralised places like the West Bank entry or others dealing with such information, and not dispersed piecemeal among many different entries. Let me know if there are any other questions you may have, as I believe that my every edit was made in line with proper sourcing. Tewfik Talk 04:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I have replaced the old Hebrew with Canaanite exactly once at the Jenin page simply because the old Hebrew name was not sourced and the Canaanite one (exactly the same as the Old Hebrew listed) was. Find a source that says that the Old Hebrew name was Ein Ganeem and you can reinclude it. That, however, has nothing to do with this page. The book I am using is a valid source (certainly more valid that no source). Your reverts and claims of POV are unfounded as usual. Tiamut 15:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
PS. Tewfik, I did not mass revert. I incorporated some of your changes. Try using the talk instead of just edit summary lines. Thank you. Tiamut 15:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
== Contentious passage ==
The following was removed by Isarig but I contend that it is completely accurate and appropriate for inclusion:
-- Abnn 15:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Incorporation of Abnn and Tewfik and my own edits is below. Those with objections are invited to discuss them below as well.
After the 1948 termination of the British Mandate of Palestine, Jordan took over al-Jib as part of the West Bank, whose control passed to Israel after the 1967 Six-Day war.
The Oslo Accords of the mid-1990s designated al-Jib as part of Area B, giving the Palestinian National Authority control over civilian matters, with Israel retaining control over security matters.
Part of the construction route proposed for the Israeli West Bank barrier during the al-Aqsa Intifada would completely surround al-Jib and two other villages, forming an enclave [2] which B'Tselem refers to as the "Bir Nabala enclave" [3]
B'Tselem notes that residents of the enclave will be prevented from using roads Route 45 North, Route 436 West, and Route 404 (Begin North) East which will be 'For Israeli Use Only.'
Alon Cohen-Lifschitz, an architect from Bimkom, explained that a "fluid traffic project" proposed by the barrier planners would "disenclave the Palestinian villages of Bir Nabala and Al Jib," by building 2 kilometers of road 10 meters below ground level, "closed in and covered with a wire grating, plus two tunnels and a bridge." [1]
B'Tselem writes that even if the roads are built, "construction of the barrier around the Bir Nabala enclave will severely impair the human rights of its residents." The barrier will separate Palestinians in the enclave from East Jerusalem, which has been a traditional center for the villagers. B'Tselem submits that because thousands of the enclave's residents hold Israeli identity cards, they are entitled to free access to the city by law. [3] Tiamut 19:22, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
References
UNOCHA
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).This is not a reliable source for the referenced subject matter. It is an odd place to seek historical, archaeological and related information.
Noted historian Daniel Pipes has said about Mariam Shahin's book, Palestine: A Traveler's Guide:
Perhaps the book's strangest aspect is the pretense that Israel does not exist."
Conceptualized as a propaganda tool, the guidebook contains more than its share of inaccuracies. The first page falsely informs that "Palestine is a Holy Land to Muslims." The assertion that "archeologists have yet to verify the historic existence" of the Temple of Solomon is laughable nonsense. And Lord Balfour was hardly "of Jewish descent."
Daniel Pipes, The Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2006 Vol XIII: No 2 - Doright 02:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The google link is actually ambiguous in that it stated in the title it is called "Palestine: A Guide" but later on it uses the title "Palestine: A Travelers Guide." The book has been lauded in the UK Independent newspaper as I cited above. Anyways, I think the below is great work, and I am sure we can find additional sources for it given time:
-- Abnn 01:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
References
A few quick internet searches shows that nothing in the previous history section was that extraordinary. There are tons of sources to choose from. I probably didn't pick the best two Bible sources, they were just the first in Google for a search, but it is the first time I've tried to cite something to the Bible, there are probably more authoritative/standard sources people on Wikipedia use. Also I sourced some of it to the Britannica article on al-Jib / Gibeon (its the same thing on Britannica), which probably isn't good form. Feel free to help out, and find better citations Jayjg, as you seem to be quite experienced with Wikipedia. -- Abnn 03:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I just found these two stories from Time Magazine from 1957 and 1960 that describe the original discovery of both the Gibeon connection and the Bronze Age findings:
I've integrated them into the article, but not that well. -- Abnn 04:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
More findings. -- Abnn 04:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
There are a lot of mentions that the bible makes clear that Gibeon was a Canaanite city, but I am not a Bible scholar thus I can't find any high quality sources. The best I have found are these three sites:
I think I need some help here. -- Abnn 04:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Meaning of the name Gibeon:
More on excavation:
A few good sources that I haven't found online:
-- Abnn 04:29, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Robinson's identification of el-Jib as Gibeon was made in 1838, not 1874. Edward Robinson; Martin Dampies; E. Smith, Extracts from a Journal of Travels in Palestine &c., in 1838; Undertaken for the Illustration of Biblical Geography, Journal of the Royal Geographical Society of London, Vol. 9. (1839), pp. 295-310. -- Zero talk 14:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
References
Almost everything from Tiamut's original text has been confirmed via other sources except for two things:
-- Abnn 05:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I should say that the previous text's claim that "The town was destroyed by the Babylonians in 587, but its ancient remains are still visible" appears to be based strictly on the Bible claims that the Babylonians defeated Jerusalem in 587 combined with the knowledge that al-Jib was a nearby/dependent town. There doesn't seem to be anything else but the Bible for this claim. -- Abnn 05:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Here we go with the two fortresses: "There are here two fortresses, called Upper and Lower Al Jîb (Al Jîb al Faukânî and Al Jîb al Tahtâni), and they stand close one to the other", Yâkût (1225), ii. 170 and Marâsid (1300), i. 276, cited in Guy Le Strange, Palestine under the Moslems, PEF 1890. (Yâkût was a scholar who wrote the pre-eminent geographical work of his time; Marâsid was a geographical book of unknown author). -- Zero talk 14:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I am very reluctant to pass judgement on Shahin's book since I have never seen it. However, one solution to the problem is to replace it with sources that are less open to dispute. I have succeeded in tracking down scholarly sources for everything quoted here from Shahin except for this: "A spiral staircase descending into the cistern was probably built by the Crusaders in the 11th or 12th century CE along with a Crusader-era church." Pitchford dated the spiral staircase much earlier and several recent archaeological encyclopedias that I consulted did not dispute that. So I plan to omit that detail and rewrite everything else based on the sources I found. -- Zero talk 09:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
...is she WP:RS? I see her here, and as self-employed tour-guide and historian, according to her linkedin. Not the best. There should be better sources. Huldra ( talk) 20:58, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Al Jib. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:33, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:58, 29 June 2017 (UTC)
To editor Tombah: Let's go through all modern Israeli locations and write in the lead of their articles which Palestinian village occupied the same spot only 74 years ago. I know you won't. But somehow it is fine for you to put ancient identifications from thousands of years ago in the lead. Historical information about a site does belong in both cases, but the appropriate place is the history section. The exception is archaeological sites whose only notability is their history. Zero talk 12:23, 17 November 2022 (UTC)