![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Image:Age of Caliphs.gif is good, but we ought to have a map of just al-Andalus. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 14:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
The BBC has linked to this page! See here! Legend! -- 195.7.55.146 09:18, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No consensus for deletion for the page Al-Andalus, etymology(ies). Archived deletion debate below. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:18, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Nonsense, unencyclopedic. User:Casta attacked my personal page in response to an attempted speedy delete, so what do you folks think? Dunc_Harris| ☺ 12:30, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
End of archived deletion debate
A claim has often been made that the period of Al-Andalus there was great tolerance etc.... What often ommitted from the picture is the preceeding brutal slaughter and ethnic cleansing of native spaniards by the invading Muslim armies and the reduction of surviving Christians and Jews to a sub-class in society called Dhimmis during the same period. Those are facts that put this article into perspective instead of propagating the wishful bed time story told to Muslim children called Al-Andalus. . -- Mrabir 12:08, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Much more respectable? According to who? You!? And what are your credentials, sir? Like you said, it's just opinions and they don't matter, so take your own advice. Anyway, it wasn't an offshoot of the Austrian Empire. It was the center of the Hapsburg Empire until they lost it to the Bourbons. KingOfAfrica 00:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The agreement concluded between 'Abdul'azîz ibn Mûsà ibn Nusair and Theodomir is a case in point. Similarly, the story told by historians of Ardabat and Maimûn al-'Âbid is about the practical application of written agreements. It demonstrates in the clearest possible way of the generosity of the conquerors' conduct and policy towards the vanquished in the age of the Governors (the wulâh), which resulted in a perfectly harmonious cohabitation and a model of peaceful coexistence between the different races and religions.
One of the consequences was that the Arabic language and literature became widespread among Christians and Jews, starting at the time of the Umayyad emirate and intensifying under the Caliphate. This rapid process of arabization, which took place a century or a little more after the arrival of the Muslims in the Iberian peninsula, provoked lamentations from some churchmen, the most famous of whom was Alvaro, a priest at Cordoba.
This situation probably arose not only as a result of the climate of tolerance, referred to above, but out of the ambitions of Christians and Jews at that time to occupy state positions and accede to posts in government service. In this connection, it is known that the Umayyads of al-Andalus, following the example of their predecessors from the East, employed many Christians in their various offices, some of which achieved the highest rank under the princes and caliphs. Examples of this are Gomes Rabî', who was close to al-Hakam ar-Rabdî, and Gomes ibn Antûn, first secretary to Abd-al-Rahman an-Nâsir al-Ausat, whose writing style, quality of correspondence, savoir-faire, and accurate accounting were praised by the great historian Ibn Hayyân. One further example is Bishop Rabî' ibn Zaid (Recesmundus), who worked with 'Abd-al-Rahman an-Nâsir and was entrusted with various missions and several embassies during his reign." - http://www.unesco.org/culture/al-andalus/html_eng/benchrifa.shtml
In my opinion it is not correct to talk of "tolerance" in the type of society that we meet in al-Andalus. "Tolerance" was more or less invented during the Enlightenment, i.e. from the 17th century onwards. al-Andalus, like other Medieval societies, was a corporative society organised upon a religious basis where the individual got his/her rights and duties depending on his/her religion. Nevertheless al-Andalus could be compared to the Roman society of Antiquity where everyone was free to worship any gods, provided that sacrifices were offered to the Emperor (during the emperors) - but the Jews were extempted from the duty of offering sacrifices to Emperor, instead sacrifices were offered to their god in the Temple of Jerusalem for the benefit of the Emperor. And after the destruction of the Temple the Jews were obliged to pray to their god for the benefit of the Emperor. And in the Persian Empire of Cyrus and Dareios as well as in the Hellenistic empires everyone was free to worship their own god. Only those who aspired to a public career in these empires were obliged to worship the god of the Emperor (King etc).(Karin Almbladh, Sweden), July 17, 2007.
The Status of Christians and Jews in Muslim Spain
By itself, the quote from Bernard Lewis' Book Jews in Islam seems to be a personal statement by the author and could violate Wikipaedia's Neutral Point of View stance. It could be that Mr. Lewis furnishes evidence that suggests his assertion but unless a synopsis of that evidence is included in the article, then the particularly bald quote from Mr. Lewis' book should be removed. Mohammed Azeem, London = NO
Could this section not be condensed a bit?
"It has been pointed out by historians that although Muslims typically view the period of the Emirate and the Caliphate as tolerant towards the Christian and Jewish populations living on the conquered land, that those same populations were reduced to a sub-class status called dhimmis and were only 'tolerated' as long as they obeyed the stringent dhimmi rules imposed by the Muslims. Dhimmis ie non-Muslims could not build new churches or synagogues nor repair old ones; they had to observe their faiths indoors, never in public, they could not do anything that could be interpreted as a challenge the superiority of Islam; they could not take Arabic names; they were required to wear a dhimmi belt called the zunnar; they could not employ Muslims ; they had to show loyalty to Muslims; they could not sell goods not approved by Muslims. They had to pay an poll tax (jizya). Dhimmis were also forbidden from holding public office.(This next sentence is in remark to the previous sentence, which I will leave in tact) To say that the Dhimmis were barred from political office is a rather incorrect statement, there are many examples of dhimmi holding office especially during the time of the Abbasid empire, and their control over Baghdad. However in reference to political power than Dhimmi could attain within andalusia, please look at Hasdai ibn Shaprut a prominent Jew who controlled the customs, among other duties, in Cordoba."
It would be simpler just to link to the article Dhimmi or at the very least remove the 7 wiki links to the same article in one paragraph. This reads more like a rant than an academic discussion of the social status of non-Muslim "Peoples of the Book" in Islamic Spain. There's nothing particularly unique about this status in relation to this article and a sentence or two explaining that there were class differences due to religion as a result of Islamic law being enacted should suffice -- if it's even necessary. I'm not an expert on Islamic Spain but I do know something about the history of Islam in Europe in general and the truth is certainly not as clear cut as the author wants to make it seem. Certainly by our modern secular standards this sort of behavior is regressive and opressive, but do we really need to compare this with the treatment on non-Catholics in post-Reconquista Spain?! (As but one example.) The truth is that the middle ages right up until the Reformation and even on into the the Enlightenment were not exactly shining examples of religious tolerance and sanity. I think one could easily make the case that regardless of the unequal treatment that the dhimmi recieved it was no worse than the treatment of Jews (or so-called "heretical" Christians) anywhere else. Hell, England disbarred Catholics from public office into the modern era -- as the second author notes, there was no such rule in Islam in general or in Al-Andalus in particular. Indeed many of the most prominent members of the intellectual and cultural elite in both Islamic Spain and the Ottoman Empire were Jews and Christians. I've read quite a bit on the topic and at the very least Bernard Lewis seems to think that the Islamic dominance of Spain was the catalyst for one of the great periods in Jewish culture, philosophy and art. At any rate I digress.
I guess I'm just a bit surprised at the controversy in this article. It seems like an interesting topic and one that would be relatively easy to research given that both sides were literate and the vanguard of their respective cultures. I'm disappointed that people can't do better than this, but hey... that's life for you sometimes. (Hehe... I seem to have run across a lot of disputed pages lately, I guess this one just hit a nerve finally!) Let's make Wikipedia better! Gabe 03:30, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
If the claim of ethnic clensing cannot be supported, the Disputed Neutrality warning should be removed.-- Dr.Worm 20:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
( Threshold 09:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC))
I have just done a major edit to the History section of the article and added references, in the process replacing the paragraphs that I believe gave rise to the NPOV dispute (and which I found decidedly POV myself). I believe that the POV tag can now safely be removed, but as that would be judging my own work I'd prefer to let others decide.
It's obviously open to others to revise what I have written - but seeing some of the reactions to recent changes to this article, I'll remark that I'd regard any wholesale reversion of my changes as a distinctly unfriendly act. PWilkinson 21:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Folks, What else do you want to see on this, aside from whatever way the discussions on the role of the Dhimmi in Society. Personally, I want to see more about the Development of Islamic philosophy, and the role this had in Europes renaissance. For example, I'd like a paragraph on Ibn Bajjah, Ibn Tufayl, Ibn Rushd, Abu Hakam al-Kirmani, the studies of Michael Scot and maybe maimonides considering he was born in Cordoba. (Altough I doubt Jayjg would allow us!) Anyway, your thoughts? Is it relevent to discuss individuals in this piece, and their role in shaping society as we know it, or is this Al Andalus article just to be about what Al Andalus was, where it was, when it was, etc ? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 18:58, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Recent edits by Irishphunk and Pwilkinson etc.. made a mess of this page. -- Aesed 11:58, 1 June 2005 (UTC)
Were the inhabitants of al-Andalus "Andalusians"? "Al-Andalusians"? "Andalusis"? GCarty 08:41, 16 June 2005 (UTC)
The reason I reverted these Edits is as follows:
Jayjg, I read the exchange above and the various versions, and I'm still not sure why you object to the material in question, so I reverted. What's under dispute? BrandonYusufToropov 20:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Irishpunktom, have you got a source on the business about their insulting Muhammad in front of the masjids? I have read this, too, just can't remember where. BrandonYusufToropov 20:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Irishpunktom has left the building for 24 hours. Here is sourcing on one of these incidents, which apparently took place inside the mosque. Must have been quite a scene.
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/oecordob.htm
I see "publicly blaspheming Islam outside Mosques" has already been sourced. You probably read about them "insulting Muhammad" right in Martyrs of Córdoba. See the bullet point "Peter, Wallabonsus, Sabinian, Wistremundus, Habentius and Jeremiah": "For publicly denouncing Mohammed they were martyred under Abderrahman in Cordoba." Or maybe under Isaac: "During a public debate in Cordoba he denounced Mohammed and was martyred." Geez, doesn't anybody check before accusing someone else of an unsourced edit? Or has that article just changed very recently? - Mustafaa 11:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Let's try to hash out a text we can all be happy with here instead of revert warring and needlessly inflating the text just to make a point. Tomer TALK 22:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Why are you people making the changes that you are? it makes no sense, why are you doing it? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 23:28, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
"Haven" is a POV word; I'd be interested to see if you can find some encyclopedic source using it. Also, why did you make that latest insertion without getting approval here first? Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I note, as well, that the claim you inserted did not match the source provided. Jayjg (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
One word:
safe haven. Err.. that was two words, but whadever... --
Striver
19:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
This might be a silly question, and this might not be the place to ask it either, but the current revision seems to indicate that Sufi muslims were accorded status as Dhimmis, i.e. non-muslims. But the Sufis are muslims, aren't they? Or were they just too weird for the Andalusians to dig?
The Caliphate was a refuge of tolerance for the religious minorities persecuted in other lands, such as Jews and Sufis who immigrated to it.[1] Heraclius 20:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps "... a relative safe haven..." would be a good compromise. Thoughts? HKT talk 22:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I've edited the sentence to actually match the source. Jayjg (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
"The Caliphate was a refuge of tolerance for the religious minorities persecuted in other lands, such as Jews and Sufis who immigrated to it".
I would say that was fairly accurate. Islamic regions were extremely tolerant, certainly far more than Christian ones which were chasing people and forcing them to eat pork to prove they weren't Jews or Muslims, before burning them at the stake. The christians destroyed Mosques and Synagogues (although they did convert Mithraeum, and temples of Artemis, but that was only in the beginning), but the Muslims just converted them - Hagia Sophia being a prime example. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 22:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I know nothing about Arabic, so here's a random curious question. What do they call Spain in modern Arabic? Is it a cognate of a familiar European name (like "Spain", "Castile", "Iberia") or do they still use a name like Al-Andalus? 66.44.2.68, 16 Aug 2005 10:33 GMT.
Neither Abd-ar-rahman II nor Muhammad I of Umayyad were Caliphs. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 10:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
is there a Public domain map of Al Andalus in its various stages anywhere? i found This one at some site, but I'd like to have one on the page rather than to link to it. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:12, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sabuco.com/historia/atlas%20hespa%F1a.htm Dawn22 02:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen%3ATaifas.gif
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagem%3AEspanyamusulmana1.png
Dawn22 20:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MuslimOccupation.jpg
I have reservations about Irishpunktom's latest revision. Replacing "Caliphate" with "Muslim rule" elides significant differences in the treatment of dhimmis under the Umayyad Emirate and Caliphate versus the later Almoravids and Almohads, and implies that it was pretty much sunshine and happy days for Christians and Jews throughout the entire period of Muslim rule, which I find misleading. I'd like to get some feedback before I change it, in the hopes of avoiding another revert conflict. -- Skoosh 18:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Tom, which sources that you have provided do you consider encyclopedic? The commercial website, for example? Jayjg (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I certainly accept that it was tolerant comparted to Christian Europe. Perhaps you could edit the section into something reasonable, my edits just get reverted. Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Rather than come up with a consensus version of the section, which seems impossible, I reduced it to a back-and-forth between proponents and critics of the "tolerant El-Andalus" theory. I hope that this is at least a step towards a resolution of conflict. Zora 02:00, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I did another rewrite, for flow, and also where I tried to clarify the history of the scholarly debate, and the way it has been used to apply to contemporary political situations. I also included historical information, because the period of tolerance was bounded, and assertions that Jews did not leave Al-Andalus were not correct by 1050 or so, when people began to flee to Toledo. And now I note that Irishpunktom deleted the whole thing without comment. Why? What is controversal? Literally everthing I inserted is mainstreamed sourced, so please show some evidence of error or provide sources here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 19:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Grrr, have to go, I'll add more later. I would also advise against making such sweeping changes to an article which has taken so much to get to where it is now. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 19:28, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
I like the rewrite. It is pretty clear. However, I would like to suggest two possible changes that you can consider.
"The Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in other parts of Christian Europe...." I think that this paragraph seems to fit better in the "Rise and Fall of Tollerence" section. Also, if you know of any quotes from more mainstream authors, I think they should be included.-- 24.15.4.5 20:26, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this article delves far too much into Dhimmi discussion, and is the main reason the article has an NPOV tag. A brief outline of views and then a link to the expanded article should suffice, no? Also, regarding Jayjg's Maimonides from:
Is there more information on this? Sometimes people do just flee in fear of persecution without actually having been persecuted. The thing is, the meaning was changed entirely. "In the face of the conquering Almohades " implies they fled the actual conquest as it was happening, while "fled persecution by the Almohades" implies actual post-conquest persecution. Did he or someone else write about the persecution? What kind of persecution? Are there any sources? In previous versions, the article stated that even Muslim philosophers were persecuted ( Averroes). Is this true? In the Maimonides article, the biography makes no mention of persecution, and just says: "the family fled to Morocco after the fall of Córdoba to the Almohads." -- AladdinSE 07:53, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I am not advocating spinning it off, I am saying there is an existing Dhimmi article, and all the controversy associated with it. A brief outline of treatment of non-Muslims in Al-Andalus from opposing views and then a a link to the Dhimmi article should allow us, I would think, to get past the Neutrality tug of war in the Al Andalus article. Thank you for the clarification about the Almohades. Perhaps the Maimonodes biography should contain a brief mention about being pressured to convert etc before going into exile. -- AladdinSE 11:07, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
It was restored without comment by IrishPunkTom, is there a reason why it is being maintained? Goodoldpolonius2 21:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be removed. If he wants to add it, because the article doesn't agree with his idea of reality, then he should have to discuss it first.
The word "enclave" is incorrect. In order to be an enclave, a region must be surrounded on all sides by another nation. If a region is bordered by 2 nations, it is not an enclave.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by DrWorm ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
"confiscated their property and took their wives and children, many of whom were sold as slaves" If men were sole into slavery too, this phrase is incorrect.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.4.5 ( talk) 19:48, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The picture of the Great Mosque in Córdoba in the article belongs to the Al-Mansur section (the last built and "poorest" part of that magnificent building). I think we should try a picture from either the Ab-ar-Rahman I or Al-Hakam II parts. The first one (from Abd-ar-Rahman I) is the most beautiful and the second one (from Al-Hakam II ) is the most spectacular. The one from Al-Mansur (Hixam II) does not really compare to the others. It is just a thought!
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Threshold ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone should really examine this statement and modify it to confirm to the NPOV: "For example, forty-eight Christians of Córdoba were decapitated for religious offences against Islam. They became known as the Martyrs of Córdoba. Many of the Christians executed deliberately courted martyrdom by publicly declaiming against Islam inside mosques, insulting Muhammad and making declarations of Christian religious beliefs considered blasphemous in Islam. These deaths played out, not in a single spasm of religious unrest, but over an extended period of time; dissenters who were fully aware of the fates of their predecessors chose what amounted to suicide as a form of protest against the Islamic state."
The entire "martyrs of Córdoba" should also be examined in the light that Eulogius, Alverus et. al.,actively sought and campagined for their martyerdom. If all one reads are the commentaries and saints lives' written by those who venerated them, then yes, the image that immerges is one of outright repression. One may find such an account in Medieval Iberia: Readings from Christain, Muslim and Jewish Sources, ed. Olivia Remie Constable (Philadelphia, 1997), ISBN 0-8122-1569-9. Conversely, Saracens by John V. Tolan examines the martyrs from the other side, namely he discusses the great lenghts that these people went to in order to achieve their status as martyrs, such as seeking multiple audiences with imans and members of the court to publically blaspheme against the Prophet Mohammed. Also, it is interesting to note that during this time, there are indications that Hispano-Romans are adapting rather well to Muslim-styled life by their willing adoptation of dress, language and manners but still maintaining their religion (Spanish: mozárabes). It is therefore unlikely that willing assimilation would occur and even more so, be permitted in a society that is actively persecuting members of a different religion.
In regards to the status of Jews and Christians under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages on the Iberian Peninsula, the relationship between them and the various rulers fluxuated. One must keep in mind the the Umayyads fell from power in 1031 and the power vaccum created the first Ta'ifa period where multiple Muslim kingdoms existed in Al-Andalus. The next ruler of a unified al-Andalus was from the Almohavid dynasty of North Africa that held to strict and literal interpretations of the Qur'an. Such a belief affected not only how Jews and Christians were treated, but also religious scholars, philosophers, and other members of the intelligensia. If one was not of the same mindset as the ruling dynasty, then daily life could have been more difficult than it had been previously. A similar situation arose when the Almoravids--again, another dynasty that held a literal interpretation to the Qur'an-- took control in the late 12th century, but ceased to be a major issue during the Nasri kingdom of Granada. Lastly, it is important to remember that Jews and Muslims living under Christian rule in the north had to pay extra taxes to their rulers, could not employ Christians nor purchase Christian slaves, and faced trade restrictions yet all this was seen as normal and generally did not hamper daily life to the extent that alternatives were divised. For further reading on the treatment of Muslims under Christian rule, see Islamic Spain:1250-1500 by L.P. Harvey, (Chicago, 1990), and A Forgotten Community: The Mudéjar Aljama of Xàtiva, 1240-1327 by Isabel O'Connor (Leiden, 2003).
Overall, I agree that there should be a sizable section of the article reserved for a discussion of literature produced within al-Andalus and how it relates to the emergence of Aristotle as the poster child for the intelligensia of Latin Europe, as well as the relationship between Arabic, Hebrew and Latin speaking scholars and how they jointly translated Muslim and Greek works. If there is a seperate article on the Toledo Translation School, a link should be made. Also, the article needs to be more current in regards to the scholarly literature available on al-Andalus and read less like Menendez Pelayo or E. Lévi-Provençal's histories. Much has been written concerning aristocratic, middle and lower class women, the connections between Andalusian Jewish communities and others along the Mediterranean, political and cultural relationships between Cairo, Baghdad, Aachen, and Constantinople and the constantly changing relationships with Christian kingdoms in the northern part of the peninsula and I feel that it is time to include it within the article.
--Andi, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.251.25.167 ( talk) 06:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested in how many arab-berbers actually emigrated to Spain over the 800 years of Islamic rule. Also, a timeline depicting the percentage of the population that was muslim, christian, jewish etc. and how this changed throughout the 800 year rule would be very helpful as well. Could someone see if they can get information on these?
Can we get a more historical and nuanced adjective to describe the fanatical and intolerant Almoravids? -- Wetman 08:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. In my opinion, this article has several problems. Let´s start by talkig about the images used. Now, if you´re going to talk about Al-Andalus you should use images from the high point of this society, which is the period of the Caliphate of Córdoba, not an image from the Alhambra palace, which really is the decadent period of Al-Andalus. That image of the Jewish cantor also doesn´t make much sense here because its from the 14th century - not the time of the "Jewish Golden Age" in Al-Andalus.
It seems to me people started to politicize this article talking about "tolerance" or lack of it. Let´s have in mind that people in the Middle Ages did not think like us, nor did they share our modern political concepts. I´ve tried to write a bit about society in Al-Andalus, maybe somebody could check my writing since I´m not a native English speaker. I´ll try to write more soon. -- JLCA 14:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
To all those ISLAMOPHOBES who want to deprive Islam and muslims of all the glorious achievements in Al/andalus, I need to remind them of the following !
QUOTE
1. As was so often the case in the medieval arab world, the conquest of sevile was brought about NOT by force of arms but through pacts and this made it possible for an immediate close relationship to be formed between the conquering arab minority and the visigothic hipanics
RAFAEL VALENCIA, ISLAMIC SEVILE The Legacy of Muslim Spain, P 136
2. According to Mikel De Epalza, christian priests helped and reported christians to the muslim authorities in al andalus to pay taxes, a process to keep them christians.
The legacy of muslim Spain, P 156
3. The christians killed thousands of muslims in ANDARAX in 1501 after their surrender
L.P HARVEY, P 208
4. From 1525 nobody could openly live a muslim in any part of spain !
5. THE CHIEF AMBASSADOR to the umayyad caliph in Cordoba, Abdel Rahman III was CHRISTIAN named Rabih ben Ziyad, he also wrote the calender of crodoba. # SO MUCH SO FOR THE INTOLERANCE OF THE MUSLIMS!#
6. REVERTER, 1090/1142, was a catalan noble taken captive by the murabits, he later served as the COMMANDER of all christian mercenaries in the murabit armies and eventually became a GENERAL in the army of the sultan ali ibn yusef !! AMAZING !! SHOW ME WHICH MUSLIM CAPTIVE BECAME A GENERAL IN ANY CHRISTIAN SPANISH ARMY !!!
QUOTES REGARDING MUSLIMS IN SPAIN:
Stanley Lane-Poole, The Moors in Spain: Introduction. "For nearly eight centuries, under the Mohamedan rule, Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Her fertile provinces rendered doubly prolific, by the industrious engineering skill of the conquerors bore fruit a hundredfold, cities innumerable sprang up in the rich valleys in the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana whose names, and names only commemorate the vanished glories of their past.
"...To Cordoba belong all the beauty and ornaments that delight the eye or dazzle the sight. Her long line of Sultans form her crown of glory; her necklace is strung with the pearls which her poets have gathered from the ocean of language; her dress is of the banners of learning, well-knit together by her men of science; and the masters of every art and industry are the hem of her garments.
"Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe...
"Mathematics, astronomy, botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization, was found in Muslim Spain...
"With Granada fell all Spain's greatness. For a brief while, indeed, the reflection of the Moorish splendour cast a borrowed light upon the history of the land which it had once warmed with its sunny radiance. The great epoch of Isabella, Charles V and Philip II, of Columbus, Cortes and Pizarro, shed a last halo about the dying monuments of a mighty state. When followed the abomination of dissolution, the rule of inquisition and the blackness of darkness in which Spain has been plunged ever since. "In the land where science was once supreme, the Spanish doctors became noted for nothing but their ignorance and incapacity. The arts of Toledo and Almeria faded into insignificance.
"The land deprived of skillful irrigation of the Moors, grew impoverished and neglected, the richest and most fertile valleys languished and were deserted, and most of the populous cities which had filled every district in Andalusia, fell into ruinous decay; and beggars, friars, and bandits took the place of scholars, merchants and knights. So low fell Spain when she had driven away the Moors. Such is the melancholy contrast offered by her history."
Conde as quoted in Prescott, Philip II of Spain, Vol. III.
"And so vanquished for ever from the Spanish territory this brave, intelligent and enlightened people, who with their resolution and labour inspired life into the land, which the vain pride of the Goths condemned to sterility, and endowed it with prosperity and abundance and with innumerable canals, this people whose admirable courage was likewise, in happiness and adversity, a strong rampart to the throne of the Caliphs, whose genius, progress and study raised in its cities an internal edifice of light which sent its rays into Europe and inspired it with the passion of study, and whose magnanimous spirit tinted all its acts with an unrivalled colour of grandeur and nobility, and endowed it in the eyes of posterity with a sort of extraordinary greatness and charming colour of heroism which invokes the magical ages of Homer and which presents them to us in the garb of Greek half-gods.
"The Arabs suddenly appeared in Spain like a star which crosses through the air with its light, spreads its flames on the Horizon and then vanishes rapidly into naught. They appeared in Spain to fill her suddenly with their activity and the fruit of their genius, and endowed her with a glorious glamour which enveloped her from the Pyrenees to Gibraltar and from the oceans to the Barcelona. But a burning love for liberty and independance, a fickle character disposed to frivolty and merriness, neglect of old virtues, an unfortunate disposition of revolution, provoked always by an inflamed imagination, violent passions and ambitions, a spirit to dominate, and other factors of decay, worked in the course of time, to demolish this grand edifice raised by men like Tariq, 'Abdul Rahman al-Nasir, Muhammad ibn al-Ahmer, and led the Arabs to internal dissention, which sapped their power and pushed them to the abyss of naught.
"Millions of Moors quitted Spain carrying their property and arts - the patrimony of a state. What have the Spaniards created in their place? We could say nothing, but an eternal sorrow fills this land in which the gayest natures breathed before. Indeed there are some ruined monuments which still look upon these gloomy districts, but a real cry resounds from the depths of these monuments and ruins: honour and glory to the conquered Moor and decay and misery to the victorious Spaniard!"
Gustav Lebon
"For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. And we can safely assert that in certain disciplines like medicine the impressions of the Arabs are still at work in Europe. The medical writings of Ibn Sina (Avicenna) have been explained about the close of the last century in Monabiliah."
"Roger Bacon, Leonard, Erno Al Felquni, Raymond Lot, San Thoma, and Azfonish X Qashqani have solely depended on Arabic Books."
Renan
"Albert, the Great, is indebted to Ibn Sina and San Thoma owes it all to Ibn Rushd (Averroes)."
Homeld on Science
"It was the Arabs who for the first time invented the method of chemical preparation of medicines, and it was from this source that sound advice and the procedure of experiments came to us, which were taken up by the School of Saliram and from there after a long time spread to southern Europe. The medicine and the natural elements on which medication entirely depends became the cause of study of plants' Chemistry. In this way both these studies went on simultaneously in two different ways and thus the door on a new era of the study of this science was opened by the Arabs. Suffice it for the proof of the vast Arab knowledge of the plant kingdom that they made addition of two thousand herbs to those of Zulefuredas. There were many herbs in their pharmacy that the Greeks had not even dreamt of."
Sideo
"During the middle ages, the Arabs alone were the standard-bearers of a civilisation."
"When the Arabs gained expertise in Astronomy, they paid special attention to Mathematical sciences and gained a high degree of excellence and they were really our teachers in this field....When we take stock of all that got transferred from Arabic to Latin, we find that a great doorway was made in the name of Gerbert Sylvester II, through which during the period between 970-980 AD, all those sciences he had acquired in Andalusia had entered Europe."
..."Our searching gaze rests on the Malikite Law, since we have had contacts with Africa, and France had ordered its competent learned men to translate into French the short compendium on Fiqh (jurisprudence) compiled by Ishaq bin Yaqub (d. 1242 AD, his book titled "Kitab-e-Khalil")
..."For full six hundred years his (Ibn Sina, Avicenna) works held sway over the educational institutions of Europe. His book Al-Qanun (Canon) was translated in five volumes and had repeated reprints, since the instruction in the universities of France and Italy totally depended on it."
Martin Hume in 'Spanish People'
"The Sultan Abd-er-Rahman was one of the Heaven-sent rulers of men. Prompt yet cautious in council and in war, unscrupulous, overbearing and proud, he was as ready to wreak terrible vengeance, as he was politic to forgive when it suited him. Berber and Yamanite alike acknowledged that at last they had found their master....He ruled until his death, in 788, with the tempered severity, wisdom, and justice which made his domain the best organized in Europe, and his capital the most splendid in the world."
S.P. Scott in 'The History of the Moorish Empire in Europe.'
"Yet there were knowledge and learning everywhere except in Catholic Europe. At a time when even kings could not read or write, a Moorish king had a private library of six hundred thousand books. At a time when ninety-nine percent of the Christian people were wholly illiterate, the Moorish city of Cordova had eight hundred public schools, and there was not a village within the limits of the empire where the blessings of education could not be enjoyed by the children of the most indigent peasant, ...and it was difficult to encounter even a Moorish peasant who could not read and write."
Thomson in 'The Muslims in Andalusia.'
Europe was darkened at sunset, Cordova shone with public lamps; Europe was dirty, Cordova built a thousand baths; ..., Cordova changed its undergarments daily; Europe lay in mud, Cordovas streets were paved; Europes palaces had smoke-holes in the ceiling, Cordovas arabesques were exquisite; Europes nobility could not sign its name, Cordovas children went to school; Europes monks could not read the baptismal service, Cordovas teachers created a library of Alexandrian dimensions. (800-1000 C.E.)
Dozy in 'The Moslems in Spain.'
Cruel and fanatical, the Leonese rarely gave quarter; when they captured a town they usually put all the inhabitants to the sword. Tolerance such as that accorded by the Muslims to the Christians could not be expected of them.
H. Kamen, 'The Spanish Inquisition.'
"As a result of his (Cardinal Ximenes' coercive) endeavours, it is reported that on l8th December 1499 about three thousand Moors were baptized by him and a leading mosque in Granada was converted into a church. 'Converts' were encouraged to surrender their Islamic books, several thousands of which were destroyed by Ximenes in a public bonfire. A few rare books on medicine were kept aside for the University of Alcala...(Ximenes) claimed...the Moors had forfeited all their rights under the terms of capitulation (of Granada). They should therefore be given the choice between baptism and expulsion...At Andarax the principal mosque, in which the women and children had taken refuge, was blown up with gun-powder...all books in Arabic, especially the Qur'an, were collected to be burnt...Cardinal Ximenes:...was reported during his conversion campaign among the Granada Moors in 1500 to have burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla over 1,005,000 volumes including unique works of Moorish culture."
H.C. Lea, 'The Moriscos of Spain.'
"...that cemeteries could be established near the churches changed from mosques, but old Christians were not to be debarred from burial there if they wished....it continued until 1591 when it was ordered that they should be buried inside of the churches, which was so abhorrent to them that they vainly offered more than thirty thousand ducats if king or pope would allow them to be interred elsewhere, even though in dunghills.
"... tailors were not to make garments nor silver-smiths jewels after their (Moorish) fashion; their baths were prohibited; all births were to be watched by Christian midwives to see that no Moorish rites were performed; disarmament was to be enforced by a rigid inspection of licences; their doors were to be kept open on feast-days, Fridays, Saturdays, and during weddings, to see that Moorish rites were abandoned and Christian ones observed...no Moorish names were to be used and they were not to keep 'gacis' or unbaptised Moors either free or as slaves."
Ahmad Umayyad Andalusian Syrian
I am trying to use this page and others to help with some historical research. I appreciate that this is not what wikipedia is for ;-) but feel I should point out that amid all the arguments about tolerance or lack of it, there is still quite a lot of historical information missing. Right at the start there is a jump from talking about Al-Andalus to talking about Granada. This won't help newcomers to the subject at all. Then there is the question of whether Granada became a client state - of Castile? Aragon? Portugal? - from 1236. This isn't at all the impression that you get from looking at the pages relating to those Christian kingdoms and their various rulers. There seems to have been a great deal of conflict across the peninsula in the following decades. It isn't clear either from the article who the Marinids were and what their significance was. Sorry to be negative, but it's a question of getting the article back on track. Itsmejudith 22:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As you are probably aware mentions to an Al Andalus "re-reconquista" by muslims are not uncommon in fundamentalists´ agenda (in particular in Al Quaeda´s tapes). I would like to know more about how seriously we should take this, it gives me the creeps. I am not sure but i think either the Coran or some scholars argue that a land once muslim must always be muslim. Anyway, I think perhaps a mention in the article wouldn´t be out of the question.-- 217.130.121.152 12:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the tapes are public knowledge, googling al qaeda+al andalus returns a lot of related results. About the doctrine behind that idea I cannot find something specific but I haven´t tried seriously. I looked in some sites but they looked either islamophobic or pro-islamic divulgation sites so I gave up. Besides I find it difficult to follow the arguments with constant references to the Quran and use of arabic terms. Someone here should be more comfortable with them. Anyway, provisionally I am gonna classify the whole matter as a "crazy-terrorist-delusional-fantasy" in my mind.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Image:Age of Caliphs.gif is good, but we ought to have a map of just al-Andalus. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 14:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
The BBC has linked to this page! See here! Legend! -- 195.7.55.146 09:18, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No consensus for deletion for the page Al-Andalus, etymology(ies). Archived deletion debate below. -- Cecropia | Talk 16:18, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Nonsense, unencyclopedic. User:Casta attacked my personal page in response to an attempted speedy delete, so what do you folks think? Dunc_Harris| ☺ 12:30, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
End of archived deletion debate
A claim has often been made that the period of Al-Andalus there was great tolerance etc.... What often ommitted from the picture is the preceeding brutal slaughter and ethnic cleansing of native spaniards by the invading Muslim armies and the reduction of surviving Christians and Jews to a sub-class in society called Dhimmis during the same period. Those are facts that put this article into perspective instead of propagating the wishful bed time story told to Muslim children called Al-Andalus. . -- Mrabir 12:08, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Much more respectable? According to who? You!? And what are your credentials, sir? Like you said, it's just opinions and they don't matter, so take your own advice. Anyway, it wasn't an offshoot of the Austrian Empire. It was the center of the Hapsburg Empire until they lost it to the Bourbons. KingOfAfrica 00:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The agreement concluded between 'Abdul'azîz ibn Mûsà ibn Nusair and Theodomir is a case in point. Similarly, the story told by historians of Ardabat and Maimûn al-'Âbid is about the practical application of written agreements. It demonstrates in the clearest possible way of the generosity of the conquerors' conduct and policy towards the vanquished in the age of the Governors (the wulâh), which resulted in a perfectly harmonious cohabitation and a model of peaceful coexistence between the different races and religions.
One of the consequences was that the Arabic language and literature became widespread among Christians and Jews, starting at the time of the Umayyad emirate and intensifying under the Caliphate. This rapid process of arabization, which took place a century or a little more after the arrival of the Muslims in the Iberian peninsula, provoked lamentations from some churchmen, the most famous of whom was Alvaro, a priest at Cordoba.
This situation probably arose not only as a result of the climate of tolerance, referred to above, but out of the ambitions of Christians and Jews at that time to occupy state positions and accede to posts in government service. In this connection, it is known that the Umayyads of al-Andalus, following the example of their predecessors from the East, employed many Christians in their various offices, some of which achieved the highest rank under the princes and caliphs. Examples of this are Gomes Rabî', who was close to al-Hakam ar-Rabdî, and Gomes ibn Antûn, first secretary to Abd-al-Rahman an-Nâsir al-Ausat, whose writing style, quality of correspondence, savoir-faire, and accurate accounting were praised by the great historian Ibn Hayyân. One further example is Bishop Rabî' ibn Zaid (Recesmundus), who worked with 'Abd-al-Rahman an-Nâsir and was entrusted with various missions and several embassies during his reign." - http://www.unesco.org/culture/al-andalus/html_eng/benchrifa.shtml
In my opinion it is not correct to talk of "tolerance" in the type of society that we meet in al-Andalus. "Tolerance" was more or less invented during the Enlightenment, i.e. from the 17th century onwards. al-Andalus, like other Medieval societies, was a corporative society organised upon a religious basis where the individual got his/her rights and duties depending on his/her religion. Nevertheless al-Andalus could be compared to the Roman society of Antiquity where everyone was free to worship any gods, provided that sacrifices were offered to the Emperor (during the emperors) - but the Jews were extempted from the duty of offering sacrifices to Emperor, instead sacrifices were offered to their god in the Temple of Jerusalem for the benefit of the Emperor. And after the destruction of the Temple the Jews were obliged to pray to their god for the benefit of the Emperor. And in the Persian Empire of Cyrus and Dareios as well as in the Hellenistic empires everyone was free to worship their own god. Only those who aspired to a public career in these empires were obliged to worship the god of the Emperor (King etc).(Karin Almbladh, Sweden), July 17, 2007.
The Status of Christians and Jews in Muslim Spain
By itself, the quote from Bernard Lewis' Book Jews in Islam seems to be a personal statement by the author and could violate Wikipaedia's Neutral Point of View stance. It could be that Mr. Lewis furnishes evidence that suggests his assertion but unless a synopsis of that evidence is included in the article, then the particularly bald quote from Mr. Lewis' book should be removed. Mohammed Azeem, London = NO
Could this section not be condensed a bit?
"It has been pointed out by historians that although Muslims typically view the period of the Emirate and the Caliphate as tolerant towards the Christian and Jewish populations living on the conquered land, that those same populations were reduced to a sub-class status called dhimmis and were only 'tolerated' as long as they obeyed the stringent dhimmi rules imposed by the Muslims. Dhimmis ie non-Muslims could not build new churches or synagogues nor repair old ones; they had to observe their faiths indoors, never in public, they could not do anything that could be interpreted as a challenge the superiority of Islam; they could not take Arabic names; they were required to wear a dhimmi belt called the zunnar; they could not employ Muslims ; they had to show loyalty to Muslims; they could not sell goods not approved by Muslims. They had to pay an poll tax (jizya). Dhimmis were also forbidden from holding public office.(This next sentence is in remark to the previous sentence, which I will leave in tact) To say that the Dhimmis were barred from political office is a rather incorrect statement, there are many examples of dhimmi holding office especially during the time of the Abbasid empire, and their control over Baghdad. However in reference to political power than Dhimmi could attain within andalusia, please look at Hasdai ibn Shaprut a prominent Jew who controlled the customs, among other duties, in Cordoba."
It would be simpler just to link to the article Dhimmi or at the very least remove the 7 wiki links to the same article in one paragraph. This reads more like a rant than an academic discussion of the social status of non-Muslim "Peoples of the Book" in Islamic Spain. There's nothing particularly unique about this status in relation to this article and a sentence or two explaining that there were class differences due to religion as a result of Islamic law being enacted should suffice -- if it's even necessary. I'm not an expert on Islamic Spain but I do know something about the history of Islam in Europe in general and the truth is certainly not as clear cut as the author wants to make it seem. Certainly by our modern secular standards this sort of behavior is regressive and opressive, but do we really need to compare this with the treatment on non-Catholics in post-Reconquista Spain?! (As but one example.) The truth is that the middle ages right up until the Reformation and even on into the the Enlightenment were not exactly shining examples of religious tolerance and sanity. I think one could easily make the case that regardless of the unequal treatment that the dhimmi recieved it was no worse than the treatment of Jews (or so-called "heretical" Christians) anywhere else. Hell, England disbarred Catholics from public office into the modern era -- as the second author notes, there was no such rule in Islam in general or in Al-Andalus in particular. Indeed many of the most prominent members of the intellectual and cultural elite in both Islamic Spain and the Ottoman Empire were Jews and Christians. I've read quite a bit on the topic and at the very least Bernard Lewis seems to think that the Islamic dominance of Spain was the catalyst for one of the great periods in Jewish culture, philosophy and art. At any rate I digress.
I guess I'm just a bit surprised at the controversy in this article. It seems like an interesting topic and one that would be relatively easy to research given that both sides were literate and the vanguard of their respective cultures. I'm disappointed that people can't do better than this, but hey... that's life for you sometimes. (Hehe... I seem to have run across a lot of disputed pages lately, I guess this one just hit a nerve finally!) Let's make Wikipedia better! Gabe 03:30, 6 May 2005 (UTC)
If the claim of ethnic clensing cannot be supported, the Disputed Neutrality warning should be removed.-- Dr.Worm 20:30, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
( Threshold 09:58, 21 August 2005 (UTC))
I have just done a major edit to the History section of the article and added references, in the process replacing the paragraphs that I believe gave rise to the NPOV dispute (and which I found decidedly POV myself). I believe that the POV tag can now safely be removed, but as that would be judging my own work I'd prefer to let others decide.
It's obviously open to others to revise what I have written - but seeing some of the reactions to recent changes to this article, I'll remark that I'd regard any wholesale reversion of my changes as a distinctly unfriendly act. PWilkinson 21:36, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
Folks, What else do you want to see on this, aside from whatever way the discussions on the role of the Dhimmi in Society. Personally, I want to see more about the Development of Islamic philosophy, and the role this had in Europes renaissance. For example, I'd like a paragraph on Ibn Bajjah, Ibn Tufayl, Ibn Rushd, Abu Hakam al-Kirmani, the studies of Michael Scot and maybe maimonides considering he was born in Cordoba. (Altough I doubt Jayjg would allow us!) Anyway, your thoughts? Is it relevent to discuss individuals in this piece, and their role in shaping society as we know it, or is this Al Andalus article just to be about what Al Andalus was, where it was, when it was, etc ? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 18:58, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
Recent edits by Irishphunk and Pwilkinson etc.. made a mess of this page. -- Aesed 11:58, 1 June 2005 (UTC)
Were the inhabitants of al-Andalus "Andalusians"? "Al-Andalusians"? "Andalusis"? GCarty 08:41, 16 June 2005 (UTC)
The reason I reverted these Edits is as follows:
Jayjg, I read the exchange above and the various versions, and I'm still not sure why you object to the material in question, so I reverted. What's under dispute? BrandonYusufToropov 20:10, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Irishpunktom, have you got a source on the business about their insulting Muhammad in front of the masjids? I have read this, too, just can't remember where. BrandonYusufToropov 20:41, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Irishpunktom has left the building for 24 hours. Here is sourcing on one of these incidents, which apparently took place inside the mosque. Must have been quite a scene.
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/oecordob.htm
I see "publicly blaspheming Islam outside Mosques" has already been sourced. You probably read about them "insulting Muhammad" right in Martyrs of Córdoba. See the bullet point "Peter, Wallabonsus, Sabinian, Wistremundus, Habentius and Jeremiah": "For publicly denouncing Mohammed they were martyred under Abderrahman in Cordoba." Or maybe under Isaac: "During a public debate in Cordoba he denounced Mohammed and was martyred." Geez, doesn't anybody check before accusing someone else of an unsourced edit? Or has that article just changed very recently? - Mustafaa 11:20, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Let's try to hash out a text we can all be happy with here instead of revert warring and needlessly inflating the text just to make a point. Tomer TALK 22:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Why are you people making the changes that you are? it makes no sense, why are you doing it? -- Irishpunktom\ talk 23:28, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
"Haven" is a POV word; I'd be interested to see if you can find some encyclopedic source using it. Also, why did you make that latest insertion without getting approval here first? Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I note, as well, that the claim you inserted did not match the source provided. Jayjg (talk) 18:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
One word:
safe haven. Err.. that was two words, but whadever... --
Striver
19:58, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
This might be a silly question, and this might not be the place to ask it either, but the current revision seems to indicate that Sufi muslims were accorded status as Dhimmis, i.e. non-muslims. But the Sufis are muslims, aren't they? Or were they just too weird for the Andalusians to dig?
The Caliphate was a refuge of tolerance for the religious minorities persecuted in other lands, such as Jews and Sufis who immigrated to it.[1] Heraclius 20:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps "... a relative safe haven..." would be a good compromise. Thoughts? HKT talk 22:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I've edited the sentence to actually match the source. Jayjg (talk) 22:35, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
"The Caliphate was a refuge of tolerance for the religious minorities persecuted in other lands, such as Jews and Sufis who immigrated to it".
I would say that was fairly accurate. Islamic regions were extremely tolerant, certainly far more than Christian ones which were chasing people and forcing them to eat pork to prove they weren't Jews or Muslims, before burning them at the stake. The christians destroyed Mosques and Synagogues (although they did convert Mithraeum, and temples of Artemis, but that was only in the beginning), but the Muslims just converted them - Hagia Sophia being a prime example. ~~~~ ( ! | ? | * ) 22:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I know nothing about Arabic, so here's a random curious question. What do they call Spain in modern Arabic? Is it a cognate of a familiar European name (like "Spain", "Castile", "Iberia") or do they still use a name like Al-Andalus? 66.44.2.68, 16 Aug 2005 10:33 GMT.
Neither Abd-ar-rahman II nor Muhammad I of Umayyad were Caliphs. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 10:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
is there a Public domain map of Al Andalus in its various stages anywhere? i found This one at some site, but I'd like to have one on the page rather than to link to it. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 14:12, August 19, 2005 (UTC)
http://www.sabuco.com/historia/atlas%20hespa%F1a.htm Dawn22 02:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen%3ATaifas.gif
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagem%3AEspanyamusulmana1.png
Dawn22 20:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MuslimOccupation.jpg
I have reservations about Irishpunktom's latest revision. Replacing "Caliphate" with "Muslim rule" elides significant differences in the treatment of dhimmis under the Umayyad Emirate and Caliphate versus the later Almoravids and Almohads, and implies that it was pretty much sunshine and happy days for Christians and Jews throughout the entire period of Muslim rule, which I find misleading. I'd like to get some feedback before I change it, in the hopes of avoiding another revert conflict. -- Skoosh 18:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
Tom, which sources that you have provided do you consider encyclopedic? The commercial website, for example? Jayjg (talk) 21:28, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I certainly accept that it was tolerant comparted to Christian Europe. Perhaps you could edit the section into something reasonable, my edits just get reverted. Jayjg (talk) 18:00, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Rather than come up with a consensus version of the section, which seems impossible, I reduced it to a back-and-forth between proponents and critics of the "tolerant El-Andalus" theory. I hope that this is at least a step towards a resolution of conflict. Zora 02:00, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I did another rewrite, for flow, and also where I tried to clarify the history of the scholarly debate, and the way it has been used to apply to contemporary political situations. I also included historical information, because the period of tolerance was bounded, and assertions that Jews did not leave Al-Andalus were not correct by 1050 or so, when people began to flee to Toledo. And now I note that Irishpunktom deleted the whole thing without comment. Why? What is controversal? Literally everthing I inserted is mainstreamed sourced, so please show some evidence of error or provide sources here. -- Goodoldpolonius2 19:16, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Grrr, have to go, I'll add more later. I would also advise against making such sweeping changes to an article which has taken so much to get to where it is now. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 19:28, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
I like the rewrite. It is pretty clear. However, I would like to suggest two possible changes that you can consider.
"The Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in other parts of Christian Europe...." I think that this paragraph seems to fit better in the "Rise and Fall of Tollerence" section. Also, if you know of any quotes from more mainstream authors, I think they should be included.-- 24.15.4.5 20:26, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I think this article delves far too much into Dhimmi discussion, and is the main reason the article has an NPOV tag. A brief outline of views and then a link to the expanded article should suffice, no? Also, regarding Jayjg's Maimonides from:
Is there more information on this? Sometimes people do just flee in fear of persecution without actually having been persecuted. The thing is, the meaning was changed entirely. "In the face of the conquering Almohades " implies they fled the actual conquest as it was happening, while "fled persecution by the Almohades" implies actual post-conquest persecution. Did he or someone else write about the persecution? What kind of persecution? Are there any sources? In previous versions, the article stated that even Muslim philosophers were persecuted ( Averroes). Is this true? In the Maimonides article, the biography makes no mention of persecution, and just says: "the family fled to Morocco after the fall of Córdoba to the Almohads." -- AladdinSE 07:53, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I am not advocating spinning it off, I am saying there is an existing Dhimmi article, and all the controversy associated with it. A brief outline of treatment of non-Muslims in Al-Andalus from opposing views and then a a link to the Dhimmi article should allow us, I would think, to get past the Neutrality tug of war in the Al Andalus article. Thank you for the clarification about the Almohades. Perhaps the Maimonodes biography should contain a brief mention about being pressured to convert etc before going into exile. -- AladdinSE 11:07, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
It was restored without comment by IrishPunkTom, is there a reason why it is being maintained? Goodoldpolonius2 21:28, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I think it should be removed. If he wants to add it, because the article doesn't agree with his idea of reality, then he should have to discuss it first.
The word "enclave" is incorrect. In order to be an enclave, a region must be surrounded on all sides by another nation. If a region is bordered by 2 nations, it is not an enclave.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by DrWorm ( talk • contribs) 22:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
"confiscated their property and took their wives and children, many of whom were sold as slaves" If men were sole into slavery too, this phrase is incorrect.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.15.4.5 ( talk) 19:48, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
The picture of the Great Mosque in Córdoba in the article belongs to the Al-Mansur section (the last built and "poorest" part of that magnificent building). I think we should try a picture from either the Ab-ar-Rahman I or Al-Hakam II parts. The first one (from Abd-ar-Rahman I) is the most beautiful and the second one (from Al-Hakam II ) is the most spectacular. The one from Al-Mansur (Hixam II) does not really compare to the others. It is just a thought!
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Threshold ( talk • contribs) 17:57, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone should really examine this statement and modify it to confirm to the NPOV: "For example, forty-eight Christians of Córdoba were decapitated for religious offences against Islam. They became known as the Martyrs of Córdoba. Many of the Christians executed deliberately courted martyrdom by publicly declaiming against Islam inside mosques, insulting Muhammad and making declarations of Christian religious beliefs considered blasphemous in Islam. These deaths played out, not in a single spasm of religious unrest, but over an extended period of time; dissenters who were fully aware of the fates of their predecessors chose what amounted to suicide as a form of protest against the Islamic state."
The entire "martyrs of Córdoba" should also be examined in the light that Eulogius, Alverus et. al.,actively sought and campagined for their martyerdom. If all one reads are the commentaries and saints lives' written by those who venerated them, then yes, the image that immerges is one of outright repression. One may find such an account in Medieval Iberia: Readings from Christain, Muslim and Jewish Sources, ed. Olivia Remie Constable (Philadelphia, 1997), ISBN 0-8122-1569-9. Conversely, Saracens by John V. Tolan examines the martyrs from the other side, namely he discusses the great lenghts that these people went to in order to achieve their status as martyrs, such as seeking multiple audiences with imans and members of the court to publically blaspheme against the Prophet Mohammed. Also, it is interesting to note that during this time, there are indications that Hispano-Romans are adapting rather well to Muslim-styled life by their willing adoptation of dress, language and manners but still maintaining their religion (Spanish: mozárabes). It is therefore unlikely that willing assimilation would occur and even more so, be permitted in a society that is actively persecuting members of a different religion.
In regards to the status of Jews and Christians under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages on the Iberian Peninsula, the relationship between them and the various rulers fluxuated. One must keep in mind the the Umayyads fell from power in 1031 and the power vaccum created the first Ta'ifa period where multiple Muslim kingdoms existed in Al-Andalus. The next ruler of a unified al-Andalus was from the Almohavid dynasty of North Africa that held to strict and literal interpretations of the Qur'an. Such a belief affected not only how Jews and Christians were treated, but also religious scholars, philosophers, and other members of the intelligensia. If one was not of the same mindset as the ruling dynasty, then daily life could have been more difficult than it had been previously. A similar situation arose when the Almoravids--again, another dynasty that held a literal interpretation to the Qur'an-- took control in the late 12th century, but ceased to be a major issue during the Nasri kingdom of Granada. Lastly, it is important to remember that Jews and Muslims living under Christian rule in the north had to pay extra taxes to their rulers, could not employ Christians nor purchase Christian slaves, and faced trade restrictions yet all this was seen as normal and generally did not hamper daily life to the extent that alternatives were divised. For further reading on the treatment of Muslims under Christian rule, see Islamic Spain:1250-1500 by L.P. Harvey, (Chicago, 1990), and A Forgotten Community: The Mudéjar Aljama of Xàtiva, 1240-1327 by Isabel O'Connor (Leiden, 2003).
Overall, I agree that there should be a sizable section of the article reserved for a discussion of literature produced within al-Andalus and how it relates to the emergence of Aristotle as the poster child for the intelligensia of Latin Europe, as well as the relationship between Arabic, Hebrew and Latin speaking scholars and how they jointly translated Muslim and Greek works. If there is a seperate article on the Toledo Translation School, a link should be made. Also, the article needs to be more current in regards to the scholarly literature available on al-Andalus and read less like Menendez Pelayo or E. Lévi-Provençal's histories. Much has been written concerning aristocratic, middle and lower class women, the connections between Andalusian Jewish communities and others along the Mediterranean, political and cultural relationships between Cairo, Baghdad, Aachen, and Constantinople and the constantly changing relationships with Christian kingdoms in the northern part of the peninsula and I feel that it is time to include it within the article.
--Andi, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.251.25.167 ( talk) 06:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm interested in how many arab-berbers actually emigrated to Spain over the 800 years of Islamic rule. Also, a timeline depicting the percentage of the population that was muslim, christian, jewish etc. and how this changed throughout the 800 year rule would be very helpful as well. Could someone see if they can get information on these?
Can we get a more historical and nuanced adjective to describe the fanatical and intolerant Almoravids? -- Wetman 08:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Hello. In my opinion, this article has several problems. Let´s start by talkig about the images used. Now, if you´re going to talk about Al-Andalus you should use images from the high point of this society, which is the period of the Caliphate of Córdoba, not an image from the Alhambra palace, which really is the decadent period of Al-Andalus. That image of the Jewish cantor also doesn´t make much sense here because its from the 14th century - not the time of the "Jewish Golden Age" in Al-Andalus.
It seems to me people started to politicize this article talking about "tolerance" or lack of it. Let´s have in mind that people in the Middle Ages did not think like us, nor did they share our modern political concepts. I´ve tried to write a bit about society in Al-Andalus, maybe somebody could check my writing since I´m not a native English speaker. I´ll try to write more soon. -- JLCA 14:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
To all those ISLAMOPHOBES who want to deprive Islam and muslims of all the glorious achievements in Al/andalus, I need to remind them of the following !
QUOTE
1. As was so often the case in the medieval arab world, the conquest of sevile was brought about NOT by force of arms but through pacts and this made it possible for an immediate close relationship to be formed between the conquering arab minority and the visigothic hipanics
RAFAEL VALENCIA, ISLAMIC SEVILE The Legacy of Muslim Spain, P 136
2. According to Mikel De Epalza, christian priests helped and reported christians to the muslim authorities in al andalus to pay taxes, a process to keep them christians.
The legacy of muslim Spain, P 156
3. The christians killed thousands of muslims in ANDARAX in 1501 after their surrender
L.P HARVEY, P 208
4. From 1525 nobody could openly live a muslim in any part of spain !
5. THE CHIEF AMBASSADOR to the umayyad caliph in Cordoba, Abdel Rahman III was CHRISTIAN named Rabih ben Ziyad, he also wrote the calender of crodoba. # SO MUCH SO FOR THE INTOLERANCE OF THE MUSLIMS!#
6. REVERTER, 1090/1142, was a catalan noble taken captive by the murabits, he later served as the COMMANDER of all christian mercenaries in the murabit armies and eventually became a GENERAL in the army of the sultan ali ibn yusef !! AMAZING !! SHOW ME WHICH MUSLIM CAPTIVE BECAME A GENERAL IN ANY CHRISTIAN SPANISH ARMY !!!
QUOTES REGARDING MUSLIMS IN SPAIN:
Stanley Lane-Poole, The Moors in Spain: Introduction. "For nearly eight centuries, under the Mohamedan rule, Spain set all Europe a shining example of a civilized and enlightened state. Her fertile provinces rendered doubly prolific, by the industrious engineering skill of the conquerors bore fruit a hundredfold, cities innumerable sprang up in the rich valleys in the Guadalquivir and the Guadiana whose names, and names only commemorate the vanished glories of their past.
"...To Cordoba belong all the beauty and ornaments that delight the eye or dazzle the sight. Her long line of Sultans form her crown of glory; her necklace is strung with the pearls which her poets have gathered from the ocean of language; her dress is of the banners of learning, well-knit together by her men of science; and the masters of every art and industry are the hem of her garments.
"Art, literature and science prospered as they then prospered nowhere else in Europe...
"Mathematics, astronomy, botany, history, philosophy and jurisprudence were to be mastered in Spain, and Spain alone. Whatever makes a kingdom great and prosperous, whatever tends to refinement and civilization, was found in Muslim Spain...
"With Granada fell all Spain's greatness. For a brief while, indeed, the reflection of the Moorish splendour cast a borrowed light upon the history of the land which it had once warmed with its sunny radiance. The great epoch of Isabella, Charles V and Philip II, of Columbus, Cortes and Pizarro, shed a last halo about the dying monuments of a mighty state. When followed the abomination of dissolution, the rule of inquisition and the blackness of darkness in which Spain has been plunged ever since. "In the land where science was once supreme, the Spanish doctors became noted for nothing but their ignorance and incapacity. The arts of Toledo and Almeria faded into insignificance.
"The land deprived of skillful irrigation of the Moors, grew impoverished and neglected, the richest and most fertile valleys languished and were deserted, and most of the populous cities which had filled every district in Andalusia, fell into ruinous decay; and beggars, friars, and bandits took the place of scholars, merchants and knights. So low fell Spain when she had driven away the Moors. Such is the melancholy contrast offered by her history."
Conde as quoted in Prescott, Philip II of Spain, Vol. III.
"And so vanquished for ever from the Spanish territory this brave, intelligent and enlightened people, who with their resolution and labour inspired life into the land, which the vain pride of the Goths condemned to sterility, and endowed it with prosperity and abundance and with innumerable canals, this people whose admirable courage was likewise, in happiness and adversity, a strong rampart to the throne of the Caliphs, whose genius, progress and study raised in its cities an internal edifice of light which sent its rays into Europe and inspired it with the passion of study, and whose magnanimous spirit tinted all its acts with an unrivalled colour of grandeur and nobility, and endowed it in the eyes of posterity with a sort of extraordinary greatness and charming colour of heroism which invokes the magical ages of Homer and which presents them to us in the garb of Greek half-gods.
"The Arabs suddenly appeared in Spain like a star which crosses through the air with its light, spreads its flames on the Horizon and then vanishes rapidly into naught. They appeared in Spain to fill her suddenly with their activity and the fruit of their genius, and endowed her with a glorious glamour which enveloped her from the Pyrenees to Gibraltar and from the oceans to the Barcelona. But a burning love for liberty and independance, a fickle character disposed to frivolty and merriness, neglect of old virtues, an unfortunate disposition of revolution, provoked always by an inflamed imagination, violent passions and ambitions, a spirit to dominate, and other factors of decay, worked in the course of time, to demolish this grand edifice raised by men like Tariq, 'Abdul Rahman al-Nasir, Muhammad ibn al-Ahmer, and led the Arabs to internal dissention, which sapped their power and pushed them to the abyss of naught.
"Millions of Moors quitted Spain carrying their property and arts - the patrimony of a state. What have the Spaniards created in their place? We could say nothing, but an eternal sorrow fills this land in which the gayest natures breathed before. Indeed there are some ruined monuments which still look upon these gloomy districts, but a real cry resounds from the depths of these monuments and ruins: honour and glory to the conquered Moor and decay and misery to the victorious Spaniard!"
Gustav Lebon
"For five to six hundred years general books in Arabic language and particularly on various disciplines have been almost the only source of learning and teaching in the European universities. And we can safely assert that in certain disciplines like medicine the impressions of the Arabs are still at work in Europe. The medical writings of Ibn Sina (Avicenna) have been explained about the close of the last century in Monabiliah."
"Roger Bacon, Leonard, Erno Al Felquni, Raymond Lot, San Thoma, and Azfonish X Qashqani have solely depended on Arabic Books."
Renan
"Albert, the Great, is indebted to Ibn Sina and San Thoma owes it all to Ibn Rushd (Averroes)."
Homeld on Science
"It was the Arabs who for the first time invented the method of chemical preparation of medicines, and it was from this source that sound advice and the procedure of experiments came to us, which were taken up by the School of Saliram and from there after a long time spread to southern Europe. The medicine and the natural elements on which medication entirely depends became the cause of study of plants' Chemistry. In this way both these studies went on simultaneously in two different ways and thus the door on a new era of the study of this science was opened by the Arabs. Suffice it for the proof of the vast Arab knowledge of the plant kingdom that they made addition of two thousand herbs to those of Zulefuredas. There were many herbs in their pharmacy that the Greeks had not even dreamt of."
Sideo
"During the middle ages, the Arabs alone were the standard-bearers of a civilisation."
"When the Arabs gained expertise in Astronomy, they paid special attention to Mathematical sciences and gained a high degree of excellence and they were really our teachers in this field....When we take stock of all that got transferred from Arabic to Latin, we find that a great doorway was made in the name of Gerbert Sylvester II, through which during the period between 970-980 AD, all those sciences he had acquired in Andalusia had entered Europe."
..."Our searching gaze rests on the Malikite Law, since we have had contacts with Africa, and France had ordered its competent learned men to translate into French the short compendium on Fiqh (jurisprudence) compiled by Ishaq bin Yaqub (d. 1242 AD, his book titled "Kitab-e-Khalil")
..."For full six hundred years his (Ibn Sina, Avicenna) works held sway over the educational institutions of Europe. His book Al-Qanun (Canon) was translated in five volumes and had repeated reprints, since the instruction in the universities of France and Italy totally depended on it."
Martin Hume in 'Spanish People'
"The Sultan Abd-er-Rahman was one of the Heaven-sent rulers of men. Prompt yet cautious in council and in war, unscrupulous, overbearing and proud, he was as ready to wreak terrible vengeance, as he was politic to forgive when it suited him. Berber and Yamanite alike acknowledged that at last they had found their master....He ruled until his death, in 788, with the tempered severity, wisdom, and justice which made his domain the best organized in Europe, and his capital the most splendid in the world."
S.P. Scott in 'The History of the Moorish Empire in Europe.'
"Yet there were knowledge and learning everywhere except in Catholic Europe. At a time when even kings could not read or write, a Moorish king had a private library of six hundred thousand books. At a time when ninety-nine percent of the Christian people were wholly illiterate, the Moorish city of Cordova had eight hundred public schools, and there was not a village within the limits of the empire where the blessings of education could not be enjoyed by the children of the most indigent peasant, ...and it was difficult to encounter even a Moorish peasant who could not read and write."
Thomson in 'The Muslims in Andalusia.'
Europe was darkened at sunset, Cordova shone with public lamps; Europe was dirty, Cordova built a thousand baths; ..., Cordova changed its undergarments daily; Europe lay in mud, Cordovas streets were paved; Europes palaces had smoke-holes in the ceiling, Cordovas arabesques were exquisite; Europes nobility could not sign its name, Cordovas children went to school; Europes monks could not read the baptismal service, Cordovas teachers created a library of Alexandrian dimensions. (800-1000 C.E.)
Dozy in 'The Moslems in Spain.'
Cruel and fanatical, the Leonese rarely gave quarter; when they captured a town they usually put all the inhabitants to the sword. Tolerance such as that accorded by the Muslims to the Christians could not be expected of them.
H. Kamen, 'The Spanish Inquisition.'
"As a result of his (Cardinal Ximenes' coercive) endeavours, it is reported that on l8th December 1499 about three thousand Moors were baptized by him and a leading mosque in Granada was converted into a church. 'Converts' were encouraged to surrender their Islamic books, several thousands of which were destroyed by Ximenes in a public bonfire. A few rare books on medicine were kept aside for the University of Alcala...(Ximenes) claimed...the Moors had forfeited all their rights under the terms of capitulation (of Granada). They should therefore be given the choice between baptism and expulsion...At Andarax the principal mosque, in which the women and children had taken refuge, was blown up with gun-powder...all books in Arabic, especially the Qur'an, were collected to be burnt...Cardinal Ximenes:...was reported during his conversion campaign among the Granada Moors in 1500 to have burnt in the public square of Vivarrambla over 1,005,000 volumes including unique works of Moorish culture."
H.C. Lea, 'The Moriscos of Spain.'
"...that cemeteries could be established near the churches changed from mosques, but old Christians were not to be debarred from burial there if they wished....it continued until 1591 when it was ordered that they should be buried inside of the churches, which was so abhorrent to them that they vainly offered more than thirty thousand ducats if king or pope would allow them to be interred elsewhere, even though in dunghills.
"... tailors were not to make garments nor silver-smiths jewels after their (Moorish) fashion; their baths were prohibited; all births were to be watched by Christian midwives to see that no Moorish rites were performed; disarmament was to be enforced by a rigid inspection of licences; their doors were to be kept open on feast-days, Fridays, Saturdays, and during weddings, to see that Moorish rites were abandoned and Christian ones observed...no Moorish names were to be used and they were not to keep 'gacis' or unbaptised Moors either free or as slaves."
Ahmad Umayyad Andalusian Syrian
I am trying to use this page and others to help with some historical research. I appreciate that this is not what wikipedia is for ;-) but feel I should point out that amid all the arguments about tolerance or lack of it, there is still quite a lot of historical information missing. Right at the start there is a jump from talking about Al-Andalus to talking about Granada. This won't help newcomers to the subject at all. Then there is the question of whether Granada became a client state - of Castile? Aragon? Portugal? - from 1236. This isn't at all the impression that you get from looking at the pages relating to those Christian kingdoms and their various rulers. There seems to have been a great deal of conflict across the peninsula in the following decades. It isn't clear either from the article who the Marinids were and what their significance was. Sorry to be negative, but it's a question of getting the article back on track. Itsmejudith 22:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
As you are probably aware mentions to an Al Andalus "re-reconquista" by muslims are not uncommon in fundamentalists´ agenda (in particular in Al Quaeda´s tapes). I would like to know more about how seriously we should take this, it gives me the creeps. I am not sure but i think either the Coran or some scholars argue that a land once muslim must always be muslim. Anyway, I think perhaps a mention in the article wouldn´t be out of the question.-- 217.130.121.152 12:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, the tapes are public knowledge, googling al qaeda+al andalus returns a lot of related results. About the doctrine behind that idea I cannot find something specific but I haven´t tried seriously. I looked in some sites but they looked either islamophobic or pro-islamic divulgation sites so I gave up. Besides I find it difficult to follow the arguments with constant references to the Quran and use of arabic terms. Someone here should be more comfortable with them. Anyway, provisionally I am gonna classify the whole matter as a "crazy-terrorist-delusional-fantasy" in my mind.