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TrangaBellam has removed
this but please add it back or explain why it should not be in this article.-
Mossad3 (
talk) 13:08, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
:
Gitz6666 and
Kautilya3 seem to want something like that in this article (from what they've typed above).-
Mossad3 (
talk)
13:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
There is something quite shocking about Armstrong's unreliability on this issue. It seems inconceivable that she does not know that the balance of textual evidence supports the view that Aisha was 9 years old when her marriage was consummated (even if this issue hasn't been settled definitively), yet in her two biographies of Muhammad she implies that it is an established fact that consummation occurred at puberty. [1]
Aisha herself recollected to have been married at seven years of age — as transmitted in Sahih al-Bukhari —, and would leverage her being the only virgin-wife of Muhammad to attract support in the successional disputes that ensued upon Muhammad's death.
People pretending that there is scholarly consensus about it are not being accurate.- Huh? We write,
[B]oth Spellberg and Ali remain interested in the atypical attention of Muslim biographers on Aisha'a age and converge upon the explanation that the references were meant to reinforce "her pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."
I meant the Spellberg quote provided by Gitz6666 should be included. (No idea why a new section has been opened for the same issue.) There are no arguments about Spellberg's reliability. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7; [2] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony; [3] but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars.
Some traditional hadith sources report that Aisha was six or seven years old at the time of her marriage, and nine at the consummation, [4] but both the date and her age are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars. [5]
no firm consensus has been reached on talk, which is true - but that means that WP:NOCON applies. Pending this discussion on whether to remove any mention of hadith sources from the lead section, contents shouldn't be removed and the article should remain as it was prior to the 5 July bold edit.
The random things that would start entering leads just because some hadith said itis somewhat disingenuous. You are neglecting the huge impact (not only in terms of scholarly debates, but also political controversy and even legislation) that those hadith sources have had in many countries and for an extended period of time. Sweeping them under the carpet is not a way of promoting religious understanding and tolerance, which rather require objective and neutral knowledge of all relevant facts. What those sources report is way more important than Aisha real age, that no one will ever know: what people know, or believe they know, about Aisha's age depends on them. I think that the best we could do is to report their content, say that they are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars, and also say that Aisha's real age is indeterminable from a scholarly perspective. The text could be the following:
Some traditional hadith sources report that Aisha was six or seven years old at the time of her marriage, and nine at the consummation, but both the date and her age are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars. Though indeterminable from a scholarly perspective, Aisha's age has become a source of ideological friction in modern times. [6] [7]
Some time after the death of Khadidja, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either A'isha, the six-year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda bint Zamca, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that A'isha should marry Diubayr b. Mut'im, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and A'isha was betrothed to Muhammad. Since Muhammad had a political aim in nearly all his marriages, he must have seen in this one a means of strengthening the ties between himself and Abu Bakr, his chief follower. The marriage was not consummated until some months after the hidjra (in Shawwal i or 2/ April 623 or 624). A'isha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Medina. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time, and took her toys to her new home. Muhammad sometimes joined in her games with them. She seems to have possessed great beauty, both as child and as young woman, and to have remained Muhammad's favourite even after he had married several other beautiful women.
"Islamic tradition suggests that she may have consummated her marriage with Muhammad at as early as nine years of age, though her date of birth and age remain matters of dispute."Iskandar323 ( talk) 12:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
a brief, well-sourced sentenceon Aisha's age,
I strongly feel that we should include a few lines of high-quality, neutral and fully verifiable text on Aisha's age, because Aisha's age has become highly notable in contemporary debates. Having a self-standing paragraph on this wouldn't be unjustified, IMHO, based on MOS:LEAD, but it's not necessary. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
References
If we assume that the story of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha at the age of 9 is correct, there must be at least one text from which it can be understood that she was a child, such as: "My hand does not reach ..." Or "she's young" or "I want my mom" but there's nothing like that. 212.237.118.150 ( talk) 03:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
She was not part and parcel of Ahlul Bait 197.237.238.164 ( talk) 16:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Needless to say that none of the above sources are reliable enough to be used in any form. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
prominent orthodox Sunnior a
staunch defender of the traditional Islamic schools of lawor
one of the clearest voices of traditional Islam in the Western worldrender him a scholar at par with Ali, Spellberg, Blankinship et al? In the realms of Wikipedia, "academic training" has a very narrow meaning. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources [..] Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
Androvie's version | Banlhge453's version 1 & 2 | Banlhge453's version 3 | Banlhge453's version with sources acceptable to Iskandar323 |
---|---|---|---|
While a number of Muslim cast doubt on the reports of Aisha's early age of marriage by suggesting that she was up to 19 years old at the time, by cherry-picking their sources; [7] [8] [9] Some Muslim legal scholars ( ulama) such as Muhammad al-Munajid in his website, IslamQA.info, and Gibril Haddad provide detailed rebuttals to their points by further emphasizing that reports of Aisha's age of 6-7 years at marriage and 9 years at consummation were mass-transmitted ( mutawatir) via multiple authoritative chains of narration ( isnad). [10] [11] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [17] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [18] [19] |
Commment: Ah. I should apologize. I didn't actually have a problem with Banlhge453's initial addition, and had only meant to undo the second, based purely on it being sourced solely to Islam Q&A (as in the edit summary). Rolling back both was totally accidental, and I didn't realize I'd done it. Again, apologies to all. I'm perfectly happy with Barlas as a source. The Brown one is fine too. I am not fine with several aspects of Androvie's version, not least accusing any parties of cherrypicking: as we all know, all sources have bias, but this is a bit off. And then again, Islam Q&A is not a reliable source. Muhammad al-Munajid is a polemicist, but not a particularly qualified scholar. So, he only really ever reflects a highly conservative viewpoint, and not with much authority. Gibril Haddad is a much more qualified scholar, but whatever that rather strange Q&A pdf is, it falls quite a way short of our typical expectations in terms of reliable sourcing. Overall there's little to be recommended from Androvie's version, while Banlhge453's version is fine supported by Barlas and Brown. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet's life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind 'Aqqad's defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari's august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus of marriage age. No member of Egypt's religious establishment showed more displeasure with 'Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excrocriating the famous wordsmith's book on the Prophet's most active wife.
Androvie ( talk) 20:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)At the heart of Shakir's criticism was the question of the prophet locus of truth in Muslim life. He states and restates that Aisha's recollection of her own marriage is the lynchpin of historical and scriptural truth on this issue. Her report was categorically authenticated by the great Hadith critics of the classical era and sealed by the consensus of the medieval jurist. 'Aqqad's insinuation that she exaggerated her youth was thus tantamount to calling the Prophet's wife a liar. Against Aisha's own authenticated testimony, moreover, 'Aqqad brought nothing more than a flimsily cobbled-together argument, which Shakir contends rested on flawed premises. For example, there was no 'normal' engagement age for Arabs of the era.
Androvie ( talk) 20:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
Dear @ Doug Weller, please explain why did you revert my latest edit on the grounds that you aren't convinced the sources are reliable, while you allow one part of Banlhge453's edit regarding Kecia Ali which is not clear on what page the information is located. The citation indicates that the pages are 133 and 155-199. On the page 133, I don't find anything like that. But the pages 155-199? that's so broad, I need him to pinpoint on what page specifically Kecia said that. Androvie ( talk) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Dear @ Doug Weller
Can you explain why LivingIslam is not reliable?
It's an article by Gibril Haddad, a reputable Islamic scholar, refuting the arguments made by the ones claiming that Aisha was not 9 year-old when consummated.
He stated that nowhere did Tabari report that "Abu Bakr's four children (including Aisha in that context) were all born in Jahiliyya (before the dawning of Islam)".
If you can point out where Tabari reported that, what book of his, what volume, what page; then please do.
If you can't then please don't revert my edit, because that would be vandalism.
Also, even if LivingIslam is not acceptable as a source, why did you reject all my edits which included the addition of sources from Sunnah.com, the actual Tabari's book, Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad (in arabic), etc.?
Are those also considered unreliable as sources to you?
Androvie ( talk) 02:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Then why does it have to be Tabari's report that must be used as a source there?Because something published by the State University of New York (SUNY) Press has a lot more credibility than the website.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:51, 28 August 2022 (UTC)This statement appears to contradict the alleged age of Aishah of nine years at the time of the consummation of her marriage to the Prophet in Shawwal I (April-May 623), for which see al-Baladhuri, Ansab, I, 409-11; Ibn Hajar, Isabah, IV, 359-60. Even if she was born at the end of the Jahiliyyah period, in 609 C.E., she would have been at least thirteen solar years old by the year I/622-23.
It is an unclear modifier.>>> Responding soon.
He is published in several peer-reviewed journals>>> Like being the resident-author for " Islamic Sciences"?
cited by other authors>>> Example of some prominent scholars citing him approvingly? TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:28, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Iskandar323 :), I have some problems with this part of your edit:
Islamic sources of the classical era differ on the subject of Aisha's age at the time of her marriage and its consummation,
1. Spellberg does not state this anywhere on the page of his book mentioned in the citation.
2. This sounds as if the sources contradict each other, even though the variations are only between 6 to 7 at the time of her marriage, and 9 to 10 at the time of consummation. And the reports are fairly consistent within those ranges.
3. Even assuming it is true that Spellberg said so, the remark must be attributed to him because not all scholars agree with it. Androvie ( talk) 09:00, 2 September 2022
- oh yeah, I just remembered, can you point out on what specific page Kecia Ali said this?
Attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage or consummation have been described as an exercise in futility
I have looked it up and can't find it. It should also be attributed to her because the large majority of Islamic scholars (ulama) accept that Aisha's age at the time of marriage has already been proven by the hadiths. Androvie ( talk) 10:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Androvie ( talk) 12:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed. Please immediately remove contentious material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced..
Spellberg finds attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage (or consummation) as an exercise in futility; Kecia Ali agrees.- so the material paraphrased may also be linked to pages 39-40 from Spellberg. Iskandar323 ( talk) 14:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Spellberg and Ali have described this issue in a great detail and summary of this detail is that proving real age of Aisha is an exercise in futility. However if we delete this statement then we have to present the all the arguments and fact which were brought by Ali and Spellberg which will have same message (just in a broader way) And i think, you would be upset from this. Banlhge453 ( talk) 13:29, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Banlhge453, as I've told you many times already, please join the discussion here rather than just giving a short note on your repeated reverts of the edits you disagree with.
Your version of edits creates the impression that the Islamic scholars who adhere to the hadiths are just idiots with blind faith who follow something that is clearly wrong.
Even though a number of them have given their rebuttals to the arguments made against the hadiths regarding Aisha's age at marriage. Some of which I have included in my edit.
Regarding the reliability of Sunnipath and Gibril Haddad, it has already been explained by Dragoon17 in the section above.
Wikipedia emphasizes neutrality, not bias towards a particular side by rejecting reports or remarks that do not fit its agenda. Androvie ( talk) 09:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Androvie ( talk) 12:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
Majority of Muslim scholars believe that Aisha was six years old at the time of marriage. They have clearly no historical evidences because historical reliability of hadith and sirah, is itself, a topic of debate in academic circles. Nothing is proven. You're waging an ongoing discussion. Like (hadith reliability, opinion of individual scholar, list of arguments and counter arguments of both side). Unfortunately wikipedia page is not a place for all of this stuff. Banlhge453 ( talk) 12:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Evaluation by Imam Bukhari and Muslim doesn't gurantee the authenticity of hadith. There is a huge debate on hadith reliability and just because some imam who was guided by God, collected those hadith doesn't mean that they will become automatically historical accurate. Historians like Patricia Crone and Hoyland have cast serious doubt on these issue. Just because only source to know about Aisha is hadith also doesn't mean that it becomes a historical fact. However it has been already mentioned that according to Bukhari, Aisha was seven at the time of marriage. What do you want know? Yes, I cast doubt on hadith because many well established scholars have and as far as Aisha's age is concerned, I've already made it clear that majority of Muslim scholars believe that Aisha was six at the time of marriage and while some disagree. There is no need to go in depth of both side's arguments because they are endless Banlhge453 ( talk) 12:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
This has been already discussed. Bukhari mentions, she was seven at the time of marriage and majority of Muslim scholars take Bukhari as an authority while some disagree on this issue. Repeating the same thing and going in depth of both side's arguments is a waste of time. Because there is not only argument of Asma and Hisham, there are many arguments like death year of Aisha, conflicting hadith of Bukhari etc. Therefore if you present that some scholars say Aisha would have been older at the time of marriage and other scholars have countered it then this not end. There are also counter arguments from first side and then and then, it will go on. Therefore, please keep it brief as far as possible. Banlhge453 ( talk) 13:33, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
References
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User:TrangaBellam/Aisha Age - Currently under construction but feel free to suggest constructive improvements. Sfn-referencing is a MUST. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:24, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I see the controversial part of this page is getting out of hand again. If it may be helpful I have gone through every sentence and looked into the citations. I've pasted the text below, except in cases where there is no controversy attached to any of it. I hope this is formatted correctly...
Sentence | Source | Source text |
---|---|---|
Islamic sources of the classical era differ on the subject of Aisha's age at the time of her marriage and its consummation | Spellberg 39-40 | “The second list confirms the particulars of the marriage by explaining that A'isha was seven when she married the Prophet and nine when the union was consummated. A'isha's age is a major preoccupation in Ibn Sa'd where her marriage age varies between six and seven; nine seems constant as her age at the marriage's consummation. Only Ibn Hisham's biography of the Prophet mentions that A'isha may have been ten years old when the Prophet consummated the marriage.” |
but it was a subject of considerable interest for earlier Sunni Muslim biographers, as her pre-menarcheal held implications about her virginity and Muslim virtue | Ali 133/155-199 | In her magisterial study of the shifting treatment of Aisha over the centuries, the historian Denise Spellberg suggests that competition over status may have generated a need to affirm Aisha’s youth and purity: “All of these specific references to the bride’s age reinforce ‘A’isha’s pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity.” Insistence on her chastity is likely to have been prompted by other accounts that embroil her in scandal, such as the “affair of the necklace” |
The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to attract support in the disputes that arose over the succession to Muhammad. | Spellberg 34-40 | "A'isha states that she was the only woman the Prophet married "as a virgin". This obviously prized though fleeting physical asset allowed A'isha to remind her husband that all his other wives, as widows, had been physically intimate with other men.” (pg 40) "The political implications of her proximity to the Prophet on his deathbed and, by extension, that of her father is suggestive in the matter of succession." (pg 38-39) |
In a hadith from the Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at seven years of age | Spellberg 34-40 | (uncontroversial) |
Ibn Sa'd's corpus of biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine, while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggest she was ten years old at consummation. | Spellberg 39-40 | (uncontroversial, see first citation) |
Al-Tabari notes that Aisha stayed with her parents after the marriage, which would be consummated only at nine years of age upon her reaching sexual maturity, but elsewhere remarks her to have been born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. | Ali 133, 155–199 | (Ali citation refers back to Spellberg, page 197-198: "Aisha was born four or fives years after Muhammad's prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that Aisha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad.") |
The topic "generated no significant reflection" among later Muslims and generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms" | Ali 133/155-199 | “Aisha’s age preoccupied early Sunni scholars but generated no significant reflection by later Muslims.” “ Nor did medieval or early modern Christian polemicists care; they were bothered instead by Muhammad’s general debauchery, as manifested in his polygamy, his followers’ practice of sodomy, and—if they had to single out any—his marriage to Zaynab, which raised the specter of incest.” “For authors of this era, Muslims represent only one instance of a category of backward or primitive Others who diverge from Western Christian norms” |
Aisha's betrothal and marriage to Muhammad are presented as ordinary in Islamic literature, with Aisha's marriage fitting the norms of Arabian tribes in that era. | Ahmed 51-54 | "The details of Aisha's betrothal and marriage indicate that parents before and around the time of the rise of Islam might arrange marriages between children, male or female, and their peers or elders. and supervision” |
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works addressing the criticisms | Ali 133/155-199 | “In the late twentieth century, in a renewed climate of criticism of Islam, divergent tendencies emerge in Muslim and non-Muslim sources. Muslim scholars engage in apologetics to justify Aisha’s marriage. The dominant strategy is to contextualize it as historically appropriate to its time and place and to play up, as with the multiple marriages, the political motivations behind it. A less common strategy recalculates Aisha’s age at marriage based on other indicators in the source” “Purportedly objective American and European accounts may wax somewhat less rhapsodic about Muhammad’s sterling virtues as a husband, but like apologetic biographers, they still emphasize both the connection with Abu Bakr forged by the marriage and the context of early Arabia” |
Some modern evaluations of Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, have produced estimates that she may have been over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. | Barlas 128, Brown 146-147 | (Barlas already given in citation) |
Attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage or consummation have been described as an exercise in futility. | Ali 133/155-199 | “Aisha and possibly Khadija are the only wives whose ages have been the focus of any real interest. In both cases, any attempt to corroborate or refute specific figures is doomed to failure. Better to ask why the sources care.” |
Having looked at all of these, I think most of the sentences are accurate. There are only a couple of things I’d change, and I think these are non-controversial: “The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to attract support in the disputes that arose over the succession to Muhammad.” I think is sort of accidental synthesis of two different ideas cited above, perhaps “Her status as the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to position her over Muhammad’s other wives, who were widows and divorcees” or something would be better. I think one of Androvie’s additions should remain, namely changing the first sentence to “Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation”, which is in fact what the cited sources say and the current version is needlessly vague. Also the word “status” should be added after pre-menarcheal.
I also have a proposed addition: a note about Abbas Aqqad was added, I believe by Androvie. To me it is directly relevant to mention the first Arab to pen a revisionist take as well as the backlash to it (and why these works existed in the first place), as this was a matter not just of opinion or faith but of law. This is from Brown's book:
The text mentions that "exposure to Western norms and moralization efforts" prompted the review of the commonly-accepted young age of marriage allowed for girls at the time, which was itself based on Aisha's young age. Brown seems to be an accepted source here so I would argue for a sentence or two about this to be included. Of Androvie's other additions, the ones pulled from the Indonesian paper, I do personally think Muhammad Ali (the Ahmadi figure not the boxer) is relevant, both because he put forward the first known recalculated-age publication and because several figures within his sect built off his work and propagated those ideas; certainly to me this seems as worthy of a note as the current penultimate sentence in the section. But I would not specifically fight for its inclusion.
To me, with those changes, this section would be as good as it can be.
Does anyone have any issues with any of this? I will make a draft if there are no objections.
Dragoon17 ( talk) 22:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
Al-Tabari ... remarks her to have been born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage.
Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.
Androvie ( talk) 08:45, 4 September 2022 (UTC)All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
Androvie ( talk) 17:08, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at seven years of age. Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine, while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. Al-Tabari notes that Aisha stayed with her parents after the marriage, which was consummated only at nine years of age, but elsewhere seems to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [1] [2]
The subject was of considerable interest for early Sunni Muslim biographers, as her pre-menarcheal status held implications about her virginity and virtue. [3] The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to position her over Muhammad’s other wives, who were widows and divorcees. [1]
Aisha's marriage to Muhammad is presented as ordinary in Islamic literature, fitting the norms of Arabian tribes in that era, [4] and the topic "generated no significant reflection" among later Muslims. It generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms". From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time. [3]
The growing criticism directed against the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha, combined with exposure to Western norms, prompted some writers to recalculate Aisha’s age at marriage altogether. Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad, an Egyptian novelist, put forward an argument that Aisha was in her teens at the time of the marriage’s consummation, [5] while the prominent Lahore Ahmadi figure Muhammad Ali published similar works. [6] These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments, which broke with the sharia consensus on marriageable age and bypassed the well-regarded sahih hadith collections to focus on information gleaned from other sources. [5] Kecia Ali describes attempts to prove the "real age" of Aisha at the time of her marriage as an exercise in futility. [3]
upon her reaching sexual maturity
Aisha was born four or fives years after Muhammad's prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that Aisha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad
Androvie ( talk) 19:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
is because they are the first to pen recalculated age publications- What? TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
References
Androvie, please explain the basis of your revert than waving at a non-existent consensus. This is an article on Aisha; not Aisha's age at time of marriage.
Why do we care about what an Ahmadi figure had to say about the issue, sourced from some sub-par journal? What is the significance of the Egyptian journalist? The very recalculation of her age (as Ali notes) is a product of postmodern anxieties and they failed to convince anybody. That's all needs to be here. Not specifics of who said what.
Why did you revert the rest of the garden-variety edits? Do you want to debate them as well? TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Why do we care about what an Ahmadi figure had to say about the issue, sourced from some sub-par journal? What is the significance of the Egyptian journalist?
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
The very recalculation of her age (as Ali notes) is a product of postmodern anxieties and they failed to convince anybody. That's all needs to be here. Not specifics of who said what.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments,"
Why did you revert the rest of the garden-variety edits? Do you want to debate them as well?
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time.
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, but they contextualized the marriage as appropriate for its place and time
These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments, which broke with the sharia consensus on marriageable age and bypassed the well-regarded sahih hadith collections to focus on information gleaned from other sources."please could you tell us what page of the cited source supports the sentence. If some parts of the sentence are supported by one page, whilst other parts are supported by a different page, then please tell us which page supports which part of the sentence.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims"
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet's life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind 'Aqqad's defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari's august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus of marriage age. No member of Egypt's religious establishment showed more displeasure with 'Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excrocriating the famous wordsmith's book on the Prophet's most active wife.
Androvie ( talk) 12:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)At the heart of Shakir's criticism was the question of the prophet locus of truth in Muslim life. He states and restates that Aisha's recollection of her own marriage is the lynchpin of historical and scriptural truth on this issue. Her report was categorically authenticated by the great Hadith critics of the classical era and sealed by the consensus of the medieval jurist. 'Aqqad's insinuation that she exaggerated her youth was thus tantamount to calling the Prophet's wife a liar. Against Aisha's own authenticated testimony, moreover, 'Aqqad brought nothing more than a flimsily cobbled-together argument, which Shakir contends rested on flawed premises. For example, there was no 'normal' engagement age for Arabs of the era.
The sentences after that sentence can be found on the source, page 147-148- Engaging for the sake of engaging won't save you from being sanctioned. I and Toddy had requested citations for that sentence; not sentences (or paragraphs) before and after that sentence. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time— was quite inaccurate. The latter kind of contextualization had been appearing long before the polemics gained momentum. As was,
It generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms".
These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims?
References
Androvie, you reverted a line "Aisha's age, according to a range of calculations with respect to Asma bint Abi Bakr appears to be 18 or 19 during her marriage to Muhammad." Many muslims especially shia that do not recognize sunni sources like Sahih al-Bukhari as fully authentic, and believe that aisha age was 18 or 19. The sources I've given on scolars such as Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Husayni al-Qazwini and Shaykh Dr Ridhwan ibn Saleem, just demonstrate that. Also the line was completely neutral. On Wikipedia we have to provide views of all sides. I'am not objecting to the content that her age seems to be 6 or 9. I'am just putting the view of other side. The readers can themselves use the sources and think for themselves. That's it. Let me put that line back. It's more helpful and informational for the readers. Izan Mehdi. ( talk) 09:26, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Aisha has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Assalamu Alaikum, I hope you and your family are doing well. Please remove images from this page which show Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) or Hazrat Aisha. I know there faces are not showing in images, it is hidden with white paint but please remove images because it is forbidden to make an image of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), his family members and friends. It's my humble request to you. ALLAH will give you highest rewards, INSHAALLAH. Best Regards, Muhammad Suleman Muhammad Suleman Hamza ( talk) 05:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
The "Auto-archiving period: 1 month" is way too fast. Can someone who has knowledge of how to change this, change it? 3 months may be too fast. It might be nice if it could be set to "if it's hugely long and also really old", but that might require more A.I. than is programmed. Ha. But I don't know. :) Misty MH ( talk) 09:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Can someone put this into English that is clear? "The traditions regarding Aisha habitually opposed ideas unfavorable to women in efforts to elicit social change." After 3 reads, I am still uncertain of what is intended. Thank you! Misty MH ( talk) 09:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC) Misty MH ( talk) 09:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 20:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs in this passage is duplicated, I don't have the privileges to fix it. 222.154.106.239 ( talk) 23:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
What is the full name of aysha raliallahoo anha 2402:4000:B18C:A73C:14FD:779F:D586:996E ( talk) 11:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Revert-warring in the article is unacceptable. To preserve stability, I have full-protected this article for one month while the current content dispute is worked out. ~ Anachronist ( talk) 03:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Is there any accurate reference for this statement “The prophet Muhammed was rebuked publicly by his wives”? According to several Hadithes, his wives asked as a meaning of a question like that why we are doing it in this way rather than doing any tradition, but they asked for learning like if there is a new statement came from the God. So I suggest for correction the words of “rebuked” and “fought” by replacing the word of “asked”. 5.173.8.214 ( talk) 17:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Ffs, if one editor is trying to mainstream a fringe narrative using poor non-academic sources and tampering with the longstanding version w/o any consensus, the way out is to impose a P-block. Not sysop-protect the page! TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
TrangaBellam has removed
this but please add it back or explain why it should not be in this article.-
Mossad3 (
talk) 13:08, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
:
Gitz6666 and
Kautilya3 seem to want something like that in this article (from what they've typed above).-
Mossad3 (
talk)
13:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
There is something quite shocking about Armstrong's unreliability on this issue. It seems inconceivable that she does not know that the balance of textual evidence supports the view that Aisha was 9 years old when her marriage was consummated (even if this issue hasn't been settled definitively), yet in her two biographies of Muhammad she implies that it is an established fact that consummation occurred at puberty. [1]
Aisha herself recollected to have been married at seven years of age — as transmitted in Sahih al-Bukhari —, and would leverage her being the only virgin-wife of Muhammad to attract support in the successional disputes that ensued upon Muhammad's death.
People pretending that there is scholarly consensus about it are not being accurate.- Huh? We write,
[B]oth Spellberg and Ali remain interested in the atypical attention of Muslim biographers on Aisha'a age and converge upon the explanation that the references were meant to reinforce "her pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity."
I meant the Spellberg quote provided by Gitz6666 should be included. (No idea why a new section has been opened for the same issue.) There are no arguments about Spellberg's reliability. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 17:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Some traditional hadith sources state that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7; [2] other sources say she was 9 when she had a small marriage ceremony; [3] but both the date and her age at marriage and later consummation with Muhammad in Medina are sources of controversy and discussion amongst scholars.
Some traditional hadith sources report that Aisha was six or seven years old at the time of her marriage, and nine at the consummation, [4] but both the date and her age are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars. [5]
no firm consensus has been reached on talk, which is true - but that means that WP:NOCON applies. Pending this discussion on whether to remove any mention of hadith sources from the lead section, contents shouldn't be removed and the article should remain as it was prior to the 5 July bold edit.
The random things that would start entering leads just because some hadith said itis somewhat disingenuous. You are neglecting the huge impact (not only in terms of scholarly debates, but also political controversy and even legislation) that those hadith sources have had in many countries and for an extended period of time. Sweeping them under the carpet is not a way of promoting religious understanding and tolerance, which rather require objective and neutral knowledge of all relevant facts. What those sources report is way more important than Aisha real age, that no one will ever know: what people know, or believe they know, about Aisha's age depends on them. I think that the best we could do is to report their content, say that they are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars, and also say that Aisha's real age is indeterminable from a scholarly perspective. The text could be the following:
Some traditional hadith sources report that Aisha was six or seven years old at the time of her marriage, and nine at the consummation, but both the date and her age are subject to controversy and discussion amongst scholars. Though indeterminable from a scholarly perspective, Aisha's age has become a source of ideological friction in modern times. [6] [7]
Some time after the death of Khadidja, Khawla suggested to Muhammad that he should marry either A'isha, the six-year old daughter of his chief follower, or Sawda bint Zamca, a widow of about 30, who had gone as a Muslim to Abyssinia and whose husband had died there. Muhammad is said to have asked her to arrange for him to marry both. It had already been agreed that A'isha should marry Diubayr b. Mut'im, whose father, though still pagan, was friendly to the Muslims. By common consent, however, this agreement was set aside, and A'isha was betrothed to Muhammad. Since Muhammad had a political aim in nearly all his marriages, he must have seen in this one a means of strengthening the ties between himself and Abu Bakr, his chief follower. The marriage was not consummated until some months after the hidjra (in Shawwal i or 2/ April 623 or 624). A'isha went to live in an apartment in Muhammad's house, later the mosque of Medina. She cannot have been more than ten years old at the time, and took her toys to her new home. Muhammad sometimes joined in her games with them. She seems to have possessed great beauty, both as child and as young woman, and to have remained Muhammad's favourite even after he had married several other beautiful women.
"Islamic tradition suggests that she may have consummated her marriage with Muhammad at as early as nine years of age, though her date of birth and age remain matters of dispute."Iskandar323 ( talk) 12:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
a brief, well-sourced sentenceon Aisha's age,
I strongly feel that we should include a few lines of high-quality, neutral and fully verifiable text on Aisha's age, because Aisha's age has become highly notable in contemporary debates. Having a self-standing paragraph on this wouldn't be unjustified, IMHO, based on MOS:LEAD, but it's not necessary. Gitz ( talk) ( contribs) 14:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
References
If we assume that the story of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha at the age of 9 is correct, there must be at least one text from which it can be understood that she was a child, such as: "My hand does not reach ..." Or "she's young" or "I want my mom" but there's nothing like that. 212.237.118.150 ( talk) 03:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
She was not part and parcel of Ahlul Bait 197.237.238.164 ( talk) 16:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Needless to say that none of the above sources are reliable enough to be used in any form. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:13, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
prominent orthodox Sunnior a
staunch defender of the traditional Islamic schools of lawor
one of the clearest voices of traditional Islam in the Western worldrender him a scholar at par with Ali, Spellberg, Blankinship et al? In the realms of Wikipedia, "academic training" has a very narrow meaning. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:29, 28 August 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:38, 28 August 2022 (UTC)When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources [..] Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses.
Androvie's version | Banlhge453's version 1 & 2 | Banlhge453's version 3 | Banlhge453's version with sources acceptable to Iskandar323 |
---|---|---|---|
While a number of Muslim cast doubt on the reports of Aisha's early age of marriage by suggesting that she was up to 19 years old at the time, by cherry-picking their sources; [7] [8] [9] Some Muslim legal scholars ( ulama) such as Muhammad al-Munajid in his website, IslamQA.info, and Gibril Haddad provide detailed rebuttals to their points by further emphasizing that reports of Aisha's age of 6-7 years at marriage and 9 years at consummation were mass-transmitted ( mutawatir) via multiple authoritative chains of narration ( isnad). [10] [11] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [17] | Modern Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. [18] [19] |
Commment: Ah. I should apologize. I didn't actually have a problem with Banlhge453's initial addition, and had only meant to undo the second, based purely on it being sourced solely to Islam Q&A (as in the edit summary). Rolling back both was totally accidental, and I didn't realize I'd done it. Again, apologies to all. I'm perfectly happy with Barlas as a source. The Brown one is fine too. I am not fine with several aspects of Androvie's version, not least accusing any parties of cherrypicking: as we all know, all sources have bias, but this is a bit off. And then again, Islam Q&A is not a reliable source. Muhammad al-Munajid is a polemicist, but not a particularly qualified scholar. So, he only really ever reflects a highly conservative viewpoint, and not with much authority. Gibril Haddad is a much more qualified scholar, but whatever that rather strange Q&A pdf is, it falls quite a way short of our typical expectations in terms of reliable sourcing. Overall there's little to be recommended from Androvie's version, while Banlhge453's version is fine supported by Barlas and Brown. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:46, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet's life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind 'Aqqad's defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari's august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus of marriage age. No member of Egypt's religious establishment showed more displeasure with 'Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excrocriating the famous wordsmith's book on the Prophet's most active wife.
Androvie ( talk) 20:10, 30 August 2022 (UTC)At the heart of Shakir's criticism was the question of the prophet locus of truth in Muslim life. He states and restates that Aisha's recollection of her own marriage is the lynchpin of historical and scriptural truth on this issue. Her report was categorically authenticated by the great Hadith critics of the classical era and sealed by the consensus of the medieval jurist. 'Aqqad's insinuation that she exaggerated her youth was thus tantamount to calling the Prophet's wife a liar. Against Aisha's own authenticated testimony, moreover, 'Aqqad brought nothing more than a flimsily cobbled-together argument, which Shakir contends rested on flawed premises. For example, there was no 'normal' engagement age for Arabs of the era.
Androvie ( talk) 20:50, 30 August 2022 (UTC)Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
References
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
On the other hand, however, Muslims who calculate 'Ayesha's age based on details of her sister Asma's age, about whom more is known, as well as on details of the Hijra (the Prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina), maintain that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen when she got married. Such views cohere with those Ahadith that claim that at her marriage Ayesha had "good knowledge of Ancient Arabic poetry and genealogy" and "pronounced the fundamental rules of Arabic Islamic ethics.
Dear @ Doug Weller, please explain why did you revert my latest edit on the grounds that you aren't convinced the sources are reliable, while you allow one part of Banlhge453's edit regarding Kecia Ali which is not clear on what page the information is located. The citation indicates that the pages are 133 and 155-199. On the page 133, I don't find anything like that. But the pages 155-199? that's so broad, I need him to pinpoint on what page specifically Kecia said that. Androvie ( talk) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Dear @ Doug Weller
Can you explain why LivingIslam is not reliable?
It's an article by Gibril Haddad, a reputable Islamic scholar, refuting the arguments made by the ones claiming that Aisha was not 9 year-old when consummated.
He stated that nowhere did Tabari report that "Abu Bakr's four children (including Aisha in that context) were all born in Jahiliyya (before the dawning of Islam)".
If you can point out where Tabari reported that, what book of his, what volume, what page; then please do.
If you can't then please don't revert my edit, because that would be vandalism.
Also, even if LivingIslam is not acceptable as a source, why did you reject all my edits which included the addition of sources from Sunnah.com, the actual Tabari's book, Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad (in arabic), etc.?
Are those also considered unreliable as sources to you?
Androvie ( talk) 02:30, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
Then why does it have to be Tabari's report that must be used as a source there?Because something published by the State University of New York (SUNY) Press has a lot more credibility than the website.-- Toddy1 (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2022 (UTC)
TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:51, 28 August 2022 (UTC)This statement appears to contradict the alleged age of Aishah of nine years at the time of the consummation of her marriage to the Prophet in Shawwal I (April-May 623), for which see al-Baladhuri, Ansab, I, 409-11; Ibn Hajar, Isabah, IV, 359-60. Even if she was born at the end of the Jahiliyyah period, in 609 C.E., she would have been at least thirteen solar years old by the year I/622-23.
It is an unclear modifier.>>> Responding soon.
He is published in several peer-reviewed journals>>> Like being the resident-author for " Islamic Sciences"?
cited by other authors>>> Example of some prominent scholars citing him approvingly? TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:28, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Iskandar323 :), I have some problems with this part of your edit:
Islamic sources of the classical era differ on the subject of Aisha's age at the time of her marriage and its consummation,
1. Spellberg does not state this anywhere on the page of his book mentioned in the citation.
2. This sounds as if the sources contradict each other, even though the variations are only between 6 to 7 at the time of her marriage, and 9 to 10 at the time of consummation. And the reports are fairly consistent within those ranges.
3. Even assuming it is true that Spellberg said so, the remark must be attributed to him because not all scholars agree with it. Androvie ( talk) 09:00, 2 September 2022
- oh yeah, I just remembered, can you point out on what specific page Kecia Ali said this?
Attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage or consummation have been described as an exercise in futility
I have looked it up and can't find it. It should also be attributed to her because the large majority of Islamic scholars (ulama) accept that Aisha's age at the time of marriage has already been proven by the hadiths. Androvie ( talk) 10:19, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Androvie ( talk) 12:13, 2 September 2022 (UTC)All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material. Any material that needs an inline citation but does not have one may be removed. Please immediately remove contentious material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced..
Spellberg finds attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage (or consummation) as an exercise in futility; Kecia Ali agrees.- so the material paraphrased may also be linked to pages 39-40 from Spellberg. Iskandar323 ( talk) 14:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Spellberg and Ali have described this issue in a great detail and summary of this detail is that proving real age of Aisha is an exercise in futility. However if we delete this statement then we have to present the all the arguments and fact which were brought by Ali and Spellberg which will have same message (just in a broader way) And i think, you would be upset from this. Banlhge453 ( talk) 13:29, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi @ Banlhge453, as I've told you many times already, please join the discussion here rather than just giving a short note on your repeated reverts of the edits you disagree with.
Your version of edits creates the impression that the Islamic scholars who adhere to the hadiths are just idiots with blind faith who follow something that is clearly wrong.
Even though a number of them have given their rebuttals to the arguments made against the hadiths regarding Aisha's age at marriage. Some of which I have included in my edit.
Regarding the reliability of Sunnipath and Gibril Haddad, it has already been explained by Dragoon17 in the section above.
Wikipedia emphasizes neutrality, not bias towards a particular side by rejecting reports or remarks that do not fit its agenda. Androvie ( talk) 09:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Androvie ( talk) 12:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
Majority of Muslim scholars believe that Aisha was six years old at the time of marriage. They have clearly no historical evidences because historical reliability of hadith and sirah, is itself, a topic of debate in academic circles. Nothing is proven. You're waging an ongoing discussion. Like (hadith reliability, opinion of individual scholar, list of arguments and counter arguments of both side). Unfortunately wikipedia page is not a place for all of this stuff. Banlhge453 ( talk) 12:30, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Evaluation by Imam Bukhari and Muslim doesn't gurantee the authenticity of hadith. There is a huge debate on hadith reliability and just because some imam who was guided by God, collected those hadith doesn't mean that they will become automatically historical accurate. Historians like Patricia Crone and Hoyland have cast serious doubt on these issue. Just because only source to know about Aisha is hadith also doesn't mean that it becomes a historical fact. However it has been already mentioned that according to Bukhari, Aisha was seven at the time of marriage. What do you want know? Yes, I cast doubt on hadith because many well established scholars have and as far as Aisha's age is concerned, I've already made it clear that majority of Muslim scholars believe that Aisha was six at the time of marriage and while some disagree. There is no need to go in depth of both side's arguments because they are endless Banlhge453 ( talk) 12:57, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
This has been already discussed. Bukhari mentions, she was seven at the time of marriage and majority of Muslim scholars take Bukhari as an authority while some disagree on this issue. Repeating the same thing and going in depth of both side's arguments is a waste of time. Because there is not only argument of Asma and Hisham, there are many arguments like death year of Aisha, conflicting hadith of Bukhari etc. Therefore if you present that some scholars say Aisha would have been older at the time of marriage and other scholars have countered it then this not end. There are also counter arguments from first side and then and then, it will go on. Therefore, please keep it brief as far as possible. Banlhge453 ( talk) 13:33, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
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User:TrangaBellam/Aisha Age - Currently under construction but feel free to suggest constructive improvements. Sfn-referencing is a MUST. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:24, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I see the controversial part of this page is getting out of hand again. If it may be helpful I have gone through every sentence and looked into the citations. I've pasted the text below, except in cases where there is no controversy attached to any of it. I hope this is formatted correctly...
Sentence | Source | Source text |
---|---|---|
Islamic sources of the classical era differ on the subject of Aisha's age at the time of her marriage and its consummation | Spellberg 39-40 | “The second list confirms the particulars of the marriage by explaining that A'isha was seven when she married the Prophet and nine when the union was consummated. A'isha's age is a major preoccupation in Ibn Sa'd where her marriage age varies between six and seven; nine seems constant as her age at the marriage's consummation. Only Ibn Hisham's biography of the Prophet mentions that A'isha may have been ten years old when the Prophet consummated the marriage.” |
but it was a subject of considerable interest for earlier Sunni Muslim biographers, as her pre-menarcheal held implications about her virginity and Muslim virtue | Ali 133/155-199 | In her magisterial study of the shifting treatment of Aisha over the centuries, the historian Denise Spellberg suggests that competition over status may have generated a need to affirm Aisha’s youth and purity: “All of these specific references to the bride’s age reinforce ‘A’isha’s pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity.” Insistence on her chastity is likely to have been prompted by other accounts that embroil her in scandal, such as the “affair of the necklace” |
The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to attract support in the disputes that arose over the succession to Muhammad. | Spellberg 34-40 | "A'isha states that she was the only woman the Prophet married "as a virgin". This obviously prized though fleeting physical asset allowed A'isha to remind her husband that all his other wives, as widows, had been physically intimate with other men.” (pg 40) "The political implications of her proximity to the Prophet on his deathbed and, by extension, that of her father is suggestive in the matter of succession." (pg 38-39) |
In a hadith from the Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at seven years of age | Spellberg 34-40 | (uncontroversial) |
Ibn Sa'd's corpus of biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine, while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggest she was ten years old at consummation. | Spellberg 39-40 | (uncontroversial, see first citation) |
Al-Tabari notes that Aisha stayed with her parents after the marriage, which would be consummated only at nine years of age upon her reaching sexual maturity, but elsewhere remarks her to have been born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. | Ali 133, 155–199 | (Ali citation refers back to Spellberg, page 197-198: "Aisha was born four or fives years after Muhammad's prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that Aisha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad.") |
The topic "generated no significant reflection" among later Muslims and generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms" | Ali 133/155-199 | “Aisha’s age preoccupied early Sunni scholars but generated no significant reflection by later Muslims.” “ Nor did medieval or early modern Christian polemicists care; they were bothered instead by Muhammad’s general debauchery, as manifested in his polygamy, his followers’ practice of sodomy, and—if they had to single out any—his marriage to Zaynab, which raised the specter of incest.” “For authors of this era, Muslims represent only one instance of a category of backward or primitive Others who diverge from Western Christian norms” |
Aisha's betrothal and marriage to Muhammad are presented as ordinary in Islamic literature, with Aisha's marriage fitting the norms of Arabian tribes in that era. | Ahmed 51-54 | "The details of Aisha's betrothal and marriage indicate that parents before and around the time of the rise of Islam might arrange marriages between children, male or female, and their peers or elders. and supervision” |
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works addressing the criticisms | Ali 133/155-199 | “In the late twentieth century, in a renewed climate of criticism of Islam, divergent tendencies emerge in Muslim and non-Muslim sources. Muslim scholars engage in apologetics to justify Aisha’s marriage. The dominant strategy is to contextualize it as historically appropriate to its time and place and to play up, as with the multiple marriages, the political motivations behind it. A less common strategy recalculates Aisha’s age at marriage based on other indicators in the source” “Purportedly objective American and European accounts may wax somewhat less rhapsodic about Muhammad’s sterling virtues as a husband, but like apologetic biographers, they still emphasize both the connection with Abu Bakr forged by the marriage and the context of early Arabia” |
Some modern evaluations of Aisha's age based on other sources of information, such as a hadith about the age difference between Aisha and her sister Asma, have produced estimates that she may have been over thirteen and perhaps in her late teens at the time of her marriage. | Barlas 128, Brown 146-147 | (Barlas already given in citation) |
Attempts in proving the "real age" of Aisha at the time of marriage or consummation have been described as an exercise in futility. | Ali 133/155-199 | “Aisha and possibly Khadija are the only wives whose ages have been the focus of any real interest. In both cases, any attempt to corroborate or refute specific figures is doomed to failure. Better to ask why the sources care.” |
Having looked at all of these, I think most of the sentences are accurate. There are only a couple of things I’d change, and I think these are non-controversial: “The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to attract support in the disputes that arose over the succession to Muhammad.” I think is sort of accidental synthesis of two different ideas cited above, perhaps “Her status as the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to position her over Muhammad’s other wives, who were widows and divorcees” or something would be better. I think one of Androvie’s additions should remain, namely changing the first sentence to “Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation”, which is in fact what the cited sources say and the current version is needlessly vague. Also the word “status” should be added after pre-menarcheal.
I also have a proposed addition: a note about Abbas Aqqad was added, I believe by Androvie. To me it is directly relevant to mention the first Arab to pen a revisionist take as well as the backlash to it (and why these works existed in the first place), as this was a matter not just of opinion or faith but of law. This is from Brown's book:
The text mentions that "exposure to Western norms and moralization efforts" prompted the review of the commonly-accepted young age of marriage allowed for girls at the time, which was itself based on Aisha's young age. Brown seems to be an accepted source here so I would argue for a sentence or two about this to be included. Of Androvie's other additions, the ones pulled from the Indonesian paper, I do personally think Muhammad Ali (the Ahmadi figure not the boxer) is relevant, both because he put forward the first known recalculated-age publication and because several figures within his sect built off his work and propagated those ideas; certainly to me this seems as worthy of a note as the current penultimate sentence in the section. But I would not specifically fight for its inclusion.
To me, with those changes, this section would be as good as it can be.
Does anyone have any issues with any of this? I will make a draft if there are no objections.
Dragoon17 ( talk) 22:45, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
Al-Tabari ... remarks her to have been born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage.
Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.
Androvie ( talk) 08:45, 4 September 2022 (UTC)All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
Androvie ( talk) 17:08, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
Islamic sources of the classical era list Aisha's age at the time of her marriage as six or seven and nine or ten at its consummation. In a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari, Aisha recollects having been married at seven years of age. Ibn Sa'd's biography holds her age at the time of marriage as between six and seven, and gives her age at consummation to be nine, while Ibn Hisham's biography of Muhammad suggests she may have been ten years old at consummation. Al-Tabari notes that Aisha stayed with her parents after the marriage, which was consummated only at nine years of age, but elsewhere seems to suggest that she was born during the Jahiliyyah (before 610 C.E), which would translate to an age of about twelve or more at marriage. [1] [2]
The subject was of considerable interest for early Sunni Muslim biographers, as her pre-menarcheal status held implications about her virginity and virtue. [3] The claim of being the only virgin wife of Muhammad may also have been used to position her over Muhammad’s other wives, who were widows and divorcees. [1]
Aisha's marriage to Muhammad is presented as ordinary in Islamic literature, fitting the norms of Arabian tribes in that era, [4] and the topic "generated no significant reflection" among later Muslims. It generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms". From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time. [3]
The growing criticism directed against the marriage of Muhammad and Aisha, combined with exposure to Western norms, prompted some writers to recalculate Aisha’s age at marriage altogether. Abbas Mahmoud al-Aqqad, an Egyptian novelist, put forward an argument that Aisha was in her teens at the time of the marriage’s consummation, [5] while the prominent Lahore Ahmadi figure Muhammad Ali published similar works. [6] These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments, which broke with the sharia consensus on marriageable age and bypassed the well-regarded sahih hadith collections to focus on information gleaned from other sources. [5] Kecia Ali describes attempts to prove the "real age" of Aisha at the time of her marriage as an exercise in futility. [3]
upon her reaching sexual maturity
Aisha was born four or fives years after Muhammad's prophetic mission began, according to Ibn Sa'd Tabaqat 8:79. However, a slightly later chronicle suggests that Aisha was born in the jahiliyya, the period before the revelation of Islam to Muhammad
Androvie ( talk) 19:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
is because they are the first to pen recalculated age publications- What? TrangaBellam ( talk) 17:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)
References
Androvie, please explain the basis of your revert than waving at a non-existent consensus. This is an article on Aisha; not Aisha's age at time of marriage.
Why do we care about what an Ahmadi figure had to say about the issue, sourced from some sub-par journal? What is the significance of the Egyptian journalist? The very recalculation of her age (as Ali notes) is a product of postmodern anxieties and they failed to convince anybody. That's all needs to be here. Not specifics of who said what.
Why did you revert the rest of the garden-variety edits? Do you want to debate them as well? TrangaBellam ( talk) 05:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Why do we care about what an Ahmadi figure had to say about the issue, sourced from some sub-par journal? What is the significance of the Egyptian journalist?
Material should be attributed in-text where sources disagree.
The very recalculation of her age (as Ali notes) is a product of postmodern anxieties and they failed to convince anybody. That's all needs to be here. Not specifics of who said what.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments,"
Why did you revert the rest of the garden-variety edits? Do you want to debate them as well?
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time.
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, but they contextualized the marriage as appropriate for its place and time
These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims, though more conservative Muslim scholars objected to their arguments, which broke with the sharia consensus on marriageable age and bypassed the well-regarded sahih hadith collections to focus on information gleaned from other sources."please could you tell us what page of the cited source supports the sentence. If some parts of the sentence are supported by one page, whilst other parts are supported by a different page, then please tell us which page supports which part of the sentence.
"These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims"
More conservative Muslim scholars objected to this rereading of the Prophet's life. They sensed the epistemological turnover behind 'Aqqad's defense of Islam. Not only did it upturn the hierarchy of authority within the Sunni scriptural canon by ignoring a clear text contained in Bukhari's august Sahih, it also broke with the Shariah consensus of marriage age. No member of Egypt's religious establishment showed more displeasure with 'Aqqad than Ahmad Shakir. In the spring of 1944 he penned a number of popular journal articles excrocriating the famous wordsmith's book on the Prophet's most active wife.
Androvie ( talk) 12:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)At the heart of Shakir's criticism was the question of the prophet locus of truth in Muslim life. He states and restates that Aisha's recollection of her own marriage is the lynchpin of historical and scriptural truth on this issue. Her report was categorically authenticated by the great Hadith critics of the classical era and sealed by the consensus of the medieval jurist. 'Aqqad's insinuation that she exaggerated her youth was thus tantamount to calling the Prophet's wife a liar. Against Aisha's own authenticated testimony, moreover, 'Aqqad brought nothing more than a flimsily cobbled-together argument, which Shakir contends rested on flawed premises. For example, there was no 'normal' engagement age for Arabs of the era.
The sentences after that sentence can be found on the source, page 147-148- Engaging for the sake of engaging won't save you from being sanctioned. I and Toddy had requested citations for that sentence; not sentences (or paragraphs) before and after that sentence. TrangaBellam ( talk) 15:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
From the mid-20th century, pointed criticisms of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha began to appear, as did works contextualizing the marriage as appropriate for its place and time— was quite inaccurate. The latter kind of contextualization had been appearing long before the polemics gained momentum. As was,
It generally went unremarked-upon by early Orientalist writers, who viewed Muslim Arabs as engaging in exotic and unusual sexual practices that tended to "diverge from Western Christian norms".
These works proved influential among both Arab and South Asian Muslims?
References
Androvie, you reverted a line "Aisha's age, according to a range of calculations with respect to Asma bint Abi Bakr appears to be 18 or 19 during her marriage to Muhammad." Many muslims especially shia that do not recognize sunni sources like Sahih al-Bukhari as fully authentic, and believe that aisha age was 18 or 19. The sources I've given on scolars such as Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Husayni al-Qazwini and Shaykh Dr Ridhwan ibn Saleem, just demonstrate that. Also the line was completely neutral. On Wikipedia we have to provide views of all sides. I'am not objecting to the content that her age seems to be 6 or 9. I'am just putting the view of other side. The readers can themselves use the sources and think for themselves. That's it. Let me put that line back. It's more helpful and informational for the readers. Izan Mehdi. ( talk) 09:26, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
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Assalamu Alaikum, I hope you and your family are doing well. Please remove images from this page which show Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) or Hazrat Aisha. I know there faces are not showing in images, it is hidden with white paint but please remove images because it is forbidden to make an image of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), his family members and friends. It's my humble request to you. ALLAH will give you highest rewards, INSHAALLAH. Best Regards, Muhammad Suleman Muhammad Suleman Hamza ( talk) 05:39, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
The "Auto-archiving period: 1 month" is way too fast. Can someone who has knowledge of how to change this, change it? 3 months may be too fast. It might be nice if it could be set to "if it's hugely long and also really old", but that might require more A.I. than is programmed. Ha. But I don't know. :) Misty MH ( talk) 09:22, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
Can someone put this into English that is clear? "The traditions regarding Aisha habitually opposed ideas unfavorable to women in efforts to elicit social change." After 3 reads, I am still uncertain of what is intended. Thank you! Misty MH ( talk) 09:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC) Misty MH ( talk) 09:23, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Islam-related articles#Islamic honorifics and user-generated calligraphic images. ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 20:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
One of the paragraphs in this passage is duplicated, I don't have the privileges to fix it. 222.154.106.239 ( talk) 23:33, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
What is the full name of aysha raliallahoo anha 2402:4000:B18C:A73C:14FD:779F:D586:996E ( talk) 11:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Revert-warring in the article is unacceptable. To preserve stability, I have full-protected this article for one month while the current content dispute is worked out. ~ Anachronist ( talk) 03:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Is there any accurate reference for this statement “The prophet Muhammed was rebuked publicly by his wives”? According to several Hadithes, his wives asked as a meaning of a question like that why we are doing it in this way rather than doing any tradition, but they asked for learning like if there is a new statement came from the God. So I suggest for correction the words of “rebuked” and “fought” by replacing the word of “asked”. 5.173.8.214 ( talk) 17:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Ffs, if one editor is trying to mainstream a fringe narrative using poor non-academic sources and tampering with the longstanding version w/o any consensus, the way out is to impose a P-block. Not sysop-protect the page! TrangaBellam ( talk) 14:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)