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It's simply not correct that the Romans called the Carthaginians 'Afer/Afri'. Their name for Carthaginians was only ever Punicus/Punici.
The term Afer was a later generic term for anyone coming from the Roman province of Africa, some of which were demonstrably not indigenous to it. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.184.115.220 (
talk) 09:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes, the article misinforms the reader. I know for sure that a Greek or Roman historian (Diodorus? Herodotus? Polibius? Pliny? I don't recall) mentioned "glorious deeds against the Afri" which were conducted by a Carthaginian military commander (I think Magon though I also don't recall it currently). I. e. he clearly differentiated between the Phoenician Carthaginians and their Libyan adversaries, the Afri.
12.11.149.5 (
talk) 11:14, 30 January 2014 (UTC)reply
You guys are right that Afri does not specifically refer to the Carthaginians, who could be called K/Carthaginenses, Poeni and Phoenices, but not Punici, because Punicus was the adjective only. I've corrected the mistaken claim I'd introduced several years ago with proper sources – my small dictionary at home was clearly wrong there. Sorry.
However, I've found another probable mistake, one I haven't introduced: the word ʿafar appears not to be attested in Phoenician, only in Hebrew, see
Wiktionary,
the STARLING database and
Militarev 2010 (p. 58). Since Phoenician is closely related to Hebrew, Hebrew is often used as a stand-in, but that does not mean that you can relabel any Hebrew word Phoenician, just like you can't simply take any Latin word and label it Oscan, or take any Danish word and label it Swedish. Closely related languages are still not identical, and a word that may be attested in one language may not even exist in the other. Note that the source given (Venter & Neuland 2005) is not an expert source and does not seem to cite any expert source. It just
reports a widespread popular etymology which does not appear to have been picked up by linguists. The source is fine for the purpose of confirming that this etymology circulates indeed, but not that such a word actually exists in Phoenician (as opposed to Hebrew, where it is attested), because it is not reliable for linguistic claims. --
Florian Blaschke (
talk) 18:57, 20 September 2015 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AfricaWikipedia:WikiProject AfricaTemplate:WikiProject AfricaAfrica articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Ethnic groupsWikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groupsTemplate:WikiProject Ethnic groupsEthnic groups articles
It's simply not correct that the Romans called the Carthaginians 'Afer/Afri'. Their name for Carthaginians was only ever Punicus/Punici.
The term Afer was a later generic term for anyone coming from the Roman province of Africa, some of which were demonstrably not indigenous to it. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
195.184.115.220 (
talk) 09:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)reply
Yes, the article misinforms the reader. I know for sure that a Greek or Roman historian (Diodorus? Herodotus? Polibius? Pliny? I don't recall) mentioned "glorious deeds against the Afri" which were conducted by a Carthaginian military commander (I think Magon though I also don't recall it currently). I. e. he clearly differentiated between the Phoenician Carthaginians and their Libyan adversaries, the Afri.
12.11.149.5 (
talk) 11:14, 30 January 2014 (UTC)reply
You guys are right that Afri does not specifically refer to the Carthaginians, who could be called K/Carthaginenses, Poeni and Phoenices, but not Punici, because Punicus was the adjective only. I've corrected the mistaken claim I'd introduced several years ago with proper sources – my small dictionary at home was clearly wrong there. Sorry.
However, I've found another probable mistake, one I haven't introduced: the word ʿafar appears not to be attested in Phoenician, only in Hebrew, see
Wiktionary,
the STARLING database and
Militarev 2010 (p. 58). Since Phoenician is closely related to Hebrew, Hebrew is often used as a stand-in, but that does not mean that you can relabel any Hebrew word Phoenician, just like you can't simply take any Latin word and label it Oscan, or take any Danish word and label it Swedish. Closely related languages are still not identical, and a word that may be attested in one language may not even exist in the other. Note that the source given (Venter & Neuland 2005) is not an expert source and does not seem to cite any expert source. It just
reports a widespread popular etymology which does not appear to have been picked up by linguists. The source is fine for the purpose of confirming that this etymology circulates indeed, but not that such a word actually exists in Phoenician (as opposed to Hebrew, where it is attested), because it is not reliable for linguistic claims. --
Florian Blaschke (
talk) 18:57, 20 September 2015 (UTC)reply