This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 18 |
Not moved. bd2412 T 18:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act → Affordable Care Act – Don't worry, I won't use the O-word. But "Affordable Care Act" is at least a WP:COMMONNAME for this legislation, based on the actual article as well as usage in reliable sources. It's not very useful to observe that the proposed title (in quotes, and -wikipedia) gets many more Ghits than the current one, but it is useful to look at usage in sources. See, for example, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, Politico, and The Huffington Post. Nor is this a colloquial journalistic shorthand: official US government sources use this form, including the Department of Health & Human Services, the IRS, and the infamous healthcare.gov site, none of which use the fuller form, at least on the linked pages. Finally, this conforms to WP:CONCISE, as well as WP:NC-GAL, which says to "[p]refer titles that reflect the name commonly used in reliable sources" and to "[g]enerally, use the short title instead of the long title." -- BDD ( talk) 19:14, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
If anything, when the next major amendment to the affected sections of the U.S.C. is passed (if ever), the policy generally known as Affordable Care Act could in theory then be pruned from this article, leaving a pure legislative article dealing with just the bill as enacted (it's history, provisions, the debate in Congress, etc.) here. Otherwise, strong Oppose. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 02:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Concur with EdJohnston's close [1] and oppose mechanical application of WP preferred by BDD, who fails to observe that in certain cases, such as this, the actual name of the Act is the best way to provide readers with encyclopedic clarity, both for US residents and citizens and for others of the world-wide readership, present and future. The issues arising in conection with this legislation are too big and grave to be trifled with in subservience to what some editors wish to see as the overriding compulsions of "WP". Qexigator ( talk) 17:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why we're using the official name for a topic that is clearly referred to most often in reliable sources by the common name, the Affordable Care Act. Per WP:ON:
In this case, the common name, Affordable Care Act, is clearly more recognizable to readers than is the official name, Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The common name is also unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable sources. -- B2 C 21:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
"Accuracy" in WP titles has never meant to prefer the official name to the name most commonly used in reliable sources. Otherwise the title of San Francisco would be City and County of San Francisco, Bill Clinton would be William Jefferson Clinton, Down Syndrome would be Trisomy 21, and California Proposition 13 (1978) would be People's Initiative to Limit Property Taxation (to name just a few of countless examples that counter such interpretation of "accurate").
If reliable sources commonly refer to a given topic with a name, then use of that name as the title of the WP article about that topic is an accurate use. That is what is meant by "accurate" in this context. -- B2 C 23:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
In order to argue that "Obamacare" would be a better title for this article, one would have to show citations of reliable sources using that term to refer to the topic of this article. The NY Times, for example, uses the term only in quotes, and qualified by the phrased "popularly called". But "Obamacare" is not what the NY Times uses to refer to the act; it uses "Affordable Care Act". For example: [2]. -- B2 C 00:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually most New York Times article don't refer to the law as the "Affordable Care Act." Many don't use any proper name, instead referring to it vaguely as something like "the new health care law." Example here. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 01:04, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
What am I missing?
Criterion | Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act | Affordable Care Act |
---|---|---|
recognizability | ||
naturalness | ||
preciseness | − | |
conciseness | ||
consistency | − | − |
Seems like a slam dunk! -- B2 C 01:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
"The Affordable Care Act (ACA) comprises the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (P.L. 111-148) and the health care provisions of the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-152). As used here, the term "ACA" also includes the effects of subsequent related changes to statute. This estimate incorporates the effects of the Supreme Court’s opinion issued on June 28, 2012 (National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 132 S. Ct. 2566 (2012))."
So thats just one major reason to keep this particular law (and its title) separate from the christmas tree of subsequent laws, et. al, derived-from or related-to the PPACA. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 02:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any policy-based argument in the previous RM, nor in the discussion just above, to retain the current title over Affordable Care Act. I'll give it another day or two, but unless someone produces an argument based on policy and guidelines (i.e., WP:CRITERIA) favoring the current title, I will start a new formal RM. -- B2 C 01:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's bunch of better questions.... Why are you here? Why do you care? When do you plan on contributing to the actual article itself? Why don't you take a break from using this discussion page for Lord knows what academic exercises taking place elsewhere and let us see how "stable" it becomes then?
Enough is enough for cris' sakes. If people want to keep asking for a move and keep being the minority - so be it (that's part of any community collaboration isn't it?). Further analysis will not stop them from making such requests - and you sure don't seem to have the authority to rescind such requests (nor do you seem willing to make such a ruling if you did) - so what is the point you are trying to drive home exactly? I see no reason to continue to entertain such lines of questioning until you clearly explain yourself and/or your rationale for chiming in here (or better yet; just move on. Come back in 60 days 30 days Oh heck... you decide how many days - you (as well a handful of others) seem to do that when it comes to archiving this page already without consulting the community as well). And please do forgive my tone - sometimes the kindest thing one can be is cruel & to the point. --
George Orwell III (
talk)
21:40, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
What evidence do we have that "Affordable Care Act" is in fact the most commonly used name among reliable sources? -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 05:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Concur with ID's last. An editor who had been concerned enough to have revived the ACA proposition as soon as it had been parked could be expected to have taken the points seriatim and given counter reasons instead of blandly announcing "reject", or threatening to start a new (time wasting) formal RM to push what amounts to a personal opinion under WP protection. The slangy neologism "Obamacare" has crossed the Atlantic and is recognised here (UK) in conversation and in print (like "Medicare" or "Watergate"). Wikipedia is not another piece of journalism. While I would ask editors to remember that this is an article which is notable way beyond the anxious concerns of sections of the US public on one side or another (or neither), I see editors are responding who (presumably) have been following the story for years inside the USA, and are better informed than ... Qexigator ( talk) 10:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
+ Examples of information/misinformation at a supposedly RS:
See also: "Obamacare explained: why healthcare reforms could determine future of US politics, by Peter Foster, Washington, 28 Jun 2012...The Affordable Care Act, which was passed by Congress in 2010 to provide an extra 30 million of the poorest Americans with healthcare coverage....For Republicans the ACA – or "Obamacare", as they derisively refer to it – represents everything they hate about big government." This links to a White House promo website [9] "Health Care that Works for Americans - On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act into law, putting in place comprehensive reforms that improve access to affordable health coverage for everyone and protect consumers from abusive insurance company practices." Qexigator ( talk) 13:36, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
+ From Australia:-
See also: BBC, "Obama promotes embattled healthcare law in Texas, 7 November 2013...The 1 October launch of the insurance marketplace websites run by the federal and state governments was the culmination of more than three years of political combat in Washington over the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, signed into law by Mr Obama in 2010 and known to both sides as Obamacare". [15] -- Qexigator ( talk) 22:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
In "New Health Law Frustrates Many in Middle Class" (December 20, 2013) The New York Times points out (what others have been saying for a while now, by the way) that "While the act clearly benefits those at the low end of the income scale — and rich people can continue to afford even the most generous plans — people like the Chapmans are caught in the uncomfortable middle: not poor enough for help, but not rich enough to be indifferent to cost." and "An analysis by The New York Times shows the cost of premiums for people who just miss qualifying for subsidies varies widely across the country and rises rapidly for people in their 50s and 60s. In some places, prices can quickly approach 20 percent of a person’s income. Experts consider health insurance unaffordable once it exceeds 10 percent of annual income. By that measure, a 50-year-old making $50,000 a year, or just above the qualifying limit for assistance, would find the cheapest available plan to be unaffordable in more than 170 counties around the country, ranging from Anchorage to Jackson, Miss". My question: How is it that the massive amount of negative reality of the Obamacare implementation . . . are missing from the Obamacare Wikipedia entry ? Also, it has become almost laughable how one provision after another of the Act are being rolled back in the past few weeks. How is the undoing of Obamacare by Obama himself, also practically invisible in the Obamacare Wikipedia entry ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.2.7 ( talk) 08:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Further, on the second of my points above it is actually no laughing matter (morbid "laughable" was meant by me above) at all for the millions of American people now suffering serious financial hardship and new unnecessary major aggravation directly due to the Orwellian-named "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". As it is now starting to be explained more clearly (everywhere EXCEPT on the Wikipedia "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" entry - which reads like it was written by Plouffe and Axelrod) as each land-mine has exploded the Obama administration has rolled back Obamacare law components for political expediencey. Recent examples of reliable sources documenting items that are obfuscated and buried in this Wikipedia entry (at best) are "Slip-sliding away: 6 ways Obamacare isn't what it used to be" by Maggie Fox , NBC News Dec. 20, 2013, which notes: " The White House has rolled out so many last-minute fixes that critics and supporters alike are asking how anyone can understand what the rules are now. First, it was a year’s reprieve for businesses that were supposed to be providing health insurance for workers. Then came a batch of delays, exemptions and other exceptions, coming to a head late Thursday night as the White House scrambled to announce -- and then clarify -- a break for people who are the most furious about losing their insurance coverage. . . . the delays appear to have rewarded people who want to defy the law’s requirements, rather than those who did what the administration asked and signed up early." Now that Obama's Executive branch has made it's 14th unilateral change to the "law" without the Legislative branch (!), one wonders where all this is, in the locked encyclopedic entry for Obamacare. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.9.160 ( talk) 15:53, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Good idea, it's not as if this page is full of sourced factual information while the actual page is full of fantasyland academic theory or anything. Keep up the good work! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.252.201 ( talk) 08:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Please review how this should be corrected "Additional reforms aimed to reduce costs and improve healthcare outcomes by shifting the system towards quality over quantity through increased competition" is a political statement used to market the law, and is not factually correct Actual reforms "by shifting the system towards quality over quantity" are on Medicare only. No measures for the not Medicare insured have been announced or put into regulation. The section Overview of provisions has the correct information. I will revise it after 7 days if no one objects or corrects it first. SpekServices ( talk) 19:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like you're proposing a change where one is not needed - it sure isn't supported by the assertion you've made either. Oppose. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 10:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
"In 2010, claims that the ACA would require all Americans or those covered by public insurance to have a microchip implanted." It makes it sound like microchips WILL be implanted. For now I'll assume this a clerical error rather than malicious intent to mislead. 174.99.123.1 ( talk) 16:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
There doesn't to be any mention of them and this article comes off as biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.210.181.249 ( talk) 00:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed. I thought it looked odd. I looked at some other articles and they all have numbers (1, 2, ... 1.1, 1.2 .... etc.) in the Contents box. What's up with this article and no numbers in Contents box?? -- Cirrus Editor ( talk) 20:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I start a new section here to get away from the unencyclopedic anti-ACA attacks in the preceding section, starting with the nonneutral subject heading.
The CBO's February 2014 report on the overall budget outlook included two appendices relevant to the ACA. As Paul Krugman pointed out in this column, the hubbub about jobs was really a distraction from the important news in Appendix B, about projected enrollments. Instead, the media discussion centered on Appendix C, prompted by false charges like this one from Eric Cantor: “Under Obamacare, millions of hardworking Americans will lose their jobs and those who keep them will see their hours and wages reduced.” The CBO director refuted that charge, and even Paul Ryan realized it wasn't true. [20]
In terms of an actual impact on employment, this isn't worth covering. The problem is that even rubbish like this can be made notable by the determined efforts of the right-wing noise machine and its usual disregard for the facts. It's similar to the "death panels" lie -- there are no death panels in the ACA but the false charges became notable enough to merit mention and debunking in Wikipedia.
One issue I see is that this article might become unwieldy if we try to keep it up to date with all the information about ongoing controversies, lawsuits, assessments, repeal efforts, etc. Perhaps we should mention the CBO report in passing but, per Wikipedia:Summary style, move the details to a daughter article, as was done with the Death panel silliness. More broadly, what about moving all the post-enactment controversies, such as the repeal efforts information, to a daughter article, leaving behind only a summary? JamesMLane t c 03:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 18 |
Not moved. bd2412 T 18:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act → Affordable Care Act – Don't worry, I won't use the O-word. But "Affordable Care Act" is at least a WP:COMMONNAME for this legislation, based on the actual article as well as usage in reliable sources. It's not very useful to observe that the proposed title (in quotes, and -wikipedia) gets many more Ghits than the current one, but it is useful to look at usage in sources. See, for example, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, Politico, and The Huffington Post. Nor is this a colloquial journalistic shorthand: official US government sources use this form, including the Department of Health & Human Services, the IRS, and the infamous healthcare.gov site, none of which use the fuller form, at least on the linked pages. Finally, this conforms to WP:CONCISE, as well as WP:NC-GAL, which says to "[p]refer titles that reflect the name commonly used in reliable sources" and to "[g]enerally, use the short title instead of the long title." -- BDD ( talk) 19:14, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
If anything, when the next major amendment to the affected sections of the U.S.C. is passed (if ever), the policy generally known as Affordable Care Act could in theory then be pruned from this article, leaving a pure legislative article dealing with just the bill as enacted (it's history, provisions, the debate in Congress, etc.) here. Otherwise, strong Oppose. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 02:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment: Concur with EdJohnston's close [1] and oppose mechanical application of WP preferred by BDD, who fails to observe that in certain cases, such as this, the actual name of the Act is the best way to provide readers with encyclopedic clarity, both for US residents and citizens and for others of the world-wide readership, present and future. The issues arising in conection with this legislation are too big and grave to be trifled with in subservience to what some editors wish to see as the overriding compulsions of "WP". Qexigator ( talk) 17:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand why we're using the official name for a topic that is clearly referred to most often in reliable sources by the common name, the Affordable Care Act. Per WP:ON:
In this case, the common name, Affordable Care Act, is clearly more recognizable to readers than is the official name, Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. The common name is also unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable sources. -- B2 C 21:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
"Accuracy" in WP titles has never meant to prefer the official name to the name most commonly used in reliable sources. Otherwise the title of San Francisco would be City and County of San Francisco, Bill Clinton would be William Jefferson Clinton, Down Syndrome would be Trisomy 21, and California Proposition 13 (1978) would be People's Initiative to Limit Property Taxation (to name just a few of countless examples that counter such interpretation of "accurate").
If reliable sources commonly refer to a given topic with a name, then use of that name as the title of the WP article about that topic is an accurate use. That is what is meant by "accurate" in this context. -- B2 C 23:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
In order to argue that "Obamacare" would be a better title for this article, one would have to show citations of reliable sources using that term to refer to the topic of this article. The NY Times, for example, uses the term only in quotes, and qualified by the phrased "popularly called". But "Obamacare" is not what the NY Times uses to refer to the act; it uses "Affordable Care Act". For example: [2]. -- B2 C 00:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Actually most New York Times article don't refer to the law as the "Affordable Care Act." Many don't use any proper name, instead referring to it vaguely as something like "the new health care law." Example here. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 01:04, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
What am I missing?
Criterion | Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act | Affordable Care Act |
---|---|---|
recognizability | ||
naturalness | ||
preciseness | − | |
conciseness | ||
consistency | − | − |
Seems like a slam dunk! -- B2 C 01:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
"The Affordable Care Act (ACA) comprises the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (P.L. 111-148) and the health care provisions of the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010 (P.L. 111-152). As used here, the term "ACA" also includes the effects of subsequent related changes to statute. This estimate incorporates the effects of the Supreme Court’s opinion issued on June 28, 2012 (National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 132 S. Ct. 2566 (2012))."
So thats just one major reason to keep this particular law (and its title) separate from the christmas tree of subsequent laws, et. al, derived-from or related-to the PPACA. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 02:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any policy-based argument in the previous RM, nor in the discussion just above, to retain the current title over Affordable Care Act. I'll give it another day or two, but unless someone produces an argument based on policy and guidelines (i.e., WP:CRITERIA) favoring the current title, I will start a new formal RM. -- B2 C 01:29, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Here's bunch of better questions.... Why are you here? Why do you care? When do you plan on contributing to the actual article itself? Why don't you take a break from using this discussion page for Lord knows what academic exercises taking place elsewhere and let us see how "stable" it becomes then?
Enough is enough for cris' sakes. If people want to keep asking for a move and keep being the minority - so be it (that's part of any community collaboration isn't it?). Further analysis will not stop them from making such requests - and you sure don't seem to have the authority to rescind such requests (nor do you seem willing to make such a ruling if you did) - so what is the point you are trying to drive home exactly? I see no reason to continue to entertain such lines of questioning until you clearly explain yourself and/or your rationale for chiming in here (or better yet; just move on. Come back in 60 days 30 days Oh heck... you decide how many days - you (as well a handful of others) seem to do that when it comes to archiving this page already without consulting the community as well). And please do forgive my tone - sometimes the kindest thing one can be is cruel & to the point. --
George Orwell III (
talk)
21:40, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
What evidence do we have that "Affordable Care Act" is in fact the most commonly used name among reliable sources? -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 05:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Concur with ID's last. An editor who had been concerned enough to have revived the ACA proposition as soon as it had been parked could be expected to have taken the points seriatim and given counter reasons instead of blandly announcing "reject", or threatening to start a new (time wasting) formal RM to push what amounts to a personal opinion under WP protection. The slangy neologism "Obamacare" has crossed the Atlantic and is recognised here (UK) in conversation and in print (like "Medicare" or "Watergate"). Wikipedia is not another piece of journalism. While I would ask editors to remember that this is an article which is notable way beyond the anxious concerns of sections of the US public on one side or another (or neither), I see editors are responding who (presumably) have been following the story for years inside the USA, and are better informed than ... Qexigator ( talk) 10:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
+ Examples of information/misinformation at a supposedly RS:
See also: "Obamacare explained: why healthcare reforms could determine future of US politics, by Peter Foster, Washington, 28 Jun 2012...The Affordable Care Act, which was passed by Congress in 2010 to provide an extra 30 million of the poorest Americans with healthcare coverage....For Republicans the ACA – or "Obamacare", as they derisively refer to it – represents everything they hate about big government." This links to a White House promo website [9] "Health Care that Works for Americans - On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act into law, putting in place comprehensive reforms that improve access to affordable health coverage for everyone and protect consumers from abusive insurance company practices." Qexigator ( talk) 13:36, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
+ From Australia:-
See also: BBC, "Obama promotes embattled healthcare law in Texas, 7 November 2013...The 1 October launch of the insurance marketplace websites run by the federal and state governments was the culmination of more than three years of political combat in Washington over the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, signed into law by Mr Obama in 2010 and known to both sides as Obamacare". [15] -- Qexigator ( talk) 22:01, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
In "New Health Law Frustrates Many in Middle Class" (December 20, 2013) The New York Times points out (what others have been saying for a while now, by the way) that "While the act clearly benefits those at the low end of the income scale — and rich people can continue to afford even the most generous plans — people like the Chapmans are caught in the uncomfortable middle: not poor enough for help, but not rich enough to be indifferent to cost." and "An analysis by The New York Times shows the cost of premiums for people who just miss qualifying for subsidies varies widely across the country and rises rapidly for people in their 50s and 60s. In some places, prices can quickly approach 20 percent of a person’s income. Experts consider health insurance unaffordable once it exceeds 10 percent of annual income. By that measure, a 50-year-old making $50,000 a year, or just above the qualifying limit for assistance, would find the cheapest available plan to be unaffordable in more than 170 counties around the country, ranging from Anchorage to Jackson, Miss". My question: How is it that the massive amount of negative reality of the Obamacare implementation . . . are missing from the Obamacare Wikipedia entry ? Also, it has become almost laughable how one provision after another of the Act are being rolled back in the past few weeks. How is the undoing of Obamacare by Obama himself, also practically invisible in the Obamacare Wikipedia entry ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.2.7 ( talk) 08:33, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Further, on the second of my points above it is actually no laughing matter (morbid "laughable" was meant by me above) at all for the millions of American people now suffering serious financial hardship and new unnecessary major aggravation directly due to the Orwellian-named "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". As it is now starting to be explained more clearly (everywhere EXCEPT on the Wikipedia "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" entry - which reads like it was written by Plouffe and Axelrod) as each land-mine has exploded the Obama administration has rolled back Obamacare law components for political expediencey. Recent examples of reliable sources documenting items that are obfuscated and buried in this Wikipedia entry (at best) are "Slip-sliding away: 6 ways Obamacare isn't what it used to be" by Maggie Fox , NBC News Dec. 20, 2013, which notes: " The White House has rolled out so many last-minute fixes that critics and supporters alike are asking how anyone can understand what the rules are now. First, it was a year’s reprieve for businesses that were supposed to be providing health insurance for workers. Then came a batch of delays, exemptions and other exceptions, coming to a head late Thursday night as the White House scrambled to announce -- and then clarify -- a break for people who are the most furious about losing their insurance coverage. . . . the delays appear to have rewarded people who want to defy the law’s requirements, rather than those who did what the administration asked and signed up early." Now that Obama's Executive branch has made it's 14th unilateral change to the "law" without the Legislative branch (!), one wonders where all this is, in the locked encyclopedic entry for Obamacare. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.9.160 ( talk) 15:53, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
Good idea, it's not as if this page is full of sourced factual information while the actual page is full of fantasyland academic theory or anything. Keep up the good work! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.252.201 ( talk) 08:51, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
Please review how this should be corrected "Additional reforms aimed to reduce costs and improve healthcare outcomes by shifting the system towards quality over quantity through increased competition" is a political statement used to market the law, and is not factually correct Actual reforms "by shifting the system towards quality over quantity" are on Medicare only. No measures for the not Medicare insured have been announced or put into regulation. The section Overview of provisions has the correct information. I will revise it after 7 days if no one objects or corrects it first. SpekServices ( talk) 19:16, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like you're proposing a change where one is not needed - it sure isn't supported by the assertion you've made either. Oppose. -- George Orwell III ( talk) 10:09, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
"In 2010, claims that the ACA would require all Americans or those covered by public insurance to have a microchip implanted." It makes it sound like microchips WILL be implanted. For now I'll assume this a clerical error rather than malicious intent to mislead. 174.99.123.1 ( talk) 16:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
There doesn't to be any mention of them and this article comes off as biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.210.181.249 ( talk) 00:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I just noticed. I thought it looked odd. I looked at some other articles and they all have numbers (1, 2, ... 1.1, 1.2 .... etc.) in the Contents box. What's up with this article and no numbers in Contents box?? -- Cirrus Editor ( talk) 20:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
I start a new section here to get away from the unencyclopedic anti-ACA attacks in the preceding section, starting with the nonneutral subject heading.
The CBO's February 2014 report on the overall budget outlook included two appendices relevant to the ACA. As Paul Krugman pointed out in this column, the hubbub about jobs was really a distraction from the important news in Appendix B, about projected enrollments. Instead, the media discussion centered on Appendix C, prompted by false charges like this one from Eric Cantor: “Under Obamacare, millions of hardworking Americans will lose their jobs and those who keep them will see their hours and wages reduced.” The CBO director refuted that charge, and even Paul Ryan realized it wasn't true. [20]
In terms of an actual impact on employment, this isn't worth covering. The problem is that even rubbish like this can be made notable by the determined efforts of the right-wing noise machine and its usual disregard for the facts. It's similar to the "death panels" lie -- there are no death panels in the ACA but the false charges became notable enough to merit mention and debunking in Wikipedia.
One issue I see is that this article might become unwieldy if we try to keep it up to date with all the information about ongoing controversies, lawsuits, assessments, repeal efforts, etc. Perhaps we should mention the CBO report in passing but, per Wikipedia:Summary style, move the details to a daughter article, as was done with the Death panel silliness. More broadly, what about moving all the post-enactment controversies, such as the repeal efforts information, to a daughter article, leaving behind only a summary? JamesMLane t c 03:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)