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Our favorite new editor just removed the link to the AR is a Cult site, saying it violates the WP rule about linking to blogs. First, it's glaringly obvious that the site is not a "blog", in just about any sense of the term. It scarcely even meets the definition of a [Personal web page], and that article even notes that "Defining personal web page is difficult". Finally, the WP policy specifically exempts sites that are authoritative. And the site in question is plainly authoritative. It contains the voices of sixteen former members, important evidence such as scans of an ad the AR people took out in major newspapers, direct quotes of actual AR books, and full reprints of articles from the mainstream media (with permission). You'll also note that the mainstream media cited both the site's contributors and the site itself. You want to claim that the site is not authoritative? Fine, let's have that discussion. I'm eager to hear what your criteria must be. And by the way, I haven't restored the deleted site in question so that no one can claim that I'm doing self-promotion; I'll leave that to some other editor. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 06:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Labelling something as 'Conversion therapy' sends a clear message - that its only, or at least primary, purpose is changing homosexuality to heterosexuality through therapy. It's possible that Aesthetic Realism was mainly known for trying to change homosexuals to heterosexuality; that doesn't mean that was ever in fact its only or primary purpose. Nor do a few sources that define Aesthetic Realism as therapy show that it is in fact therapy rather than, as it seems to insist, a philosophy. So the Conversion therapy category is wrong. As Will Beback has urged me to assume good faith, I'd like to urge him to do the same thing. I've explained what my views are on Aesthetic Realism; they are unequivocally negative. Skoojal ( talk) 04:11, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Will Beback's comments on categories above ('Second, one could remove salad dressing from the "Newman's Own" company, and it would still be the same company. But it is salad dressing which made the company a success. And if they did so I'd say we should still categorize it as a salad-dressing maker because that is what it's most obviously associated with. The purpose of this category is the same as any category, to assist readers looking for information on a topic. If someone wanted to know what organizations have been involved in conversion therapy then they should be able to find this article.'): they appear to be a personal interpretation of categories that are contradicted by the guideline, WP:CAT, which says, "Generally, the relationship between an article and its categories should be definable as "(Article) is (category)": John Goodman is an American actor, Copenhagen is a city in Denmark, Jane Austen is an English writer, etc. Do not apply categories whose relationship to the topic is definable only as "(Article) is a subject related to (category)", such as filing a teacher directly into Category:Education, an album directly into Category:Music or a book about skydiving directly into Category:Parachuting.'
Will Beback is applying the category in exactly the way the guideline says not to. He is just not on strong ground here. The basic mistake is in thinking that something qualifies as "Conversion therapy" if it is used among other things to change homosexuality to heterosexuality. Conversion therapy means therapies that only change sexual orientation, so it's absolutely clear that Beback is wrong (and this holds even if one were to grant the description of Aesthetic Realism as "therapy"). Skoojal ( talk) 04:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal, I think you have to find some support for your positions. You can just march in here and dictate that your way is the only way, dismissing everyone else out of hand. You don't think AR should be classed as Conversion Therapy despite other editors who think it should? Fine, then rally some support for your position. As long as it's just you saying it, then considering the nature of your discourse, I'm not taking your objection very seriously. (And if you want to claim that this entry means I'm desperate and have "run out of arguments", then great, have a ball.) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 15:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC) P.S. You said "Articles aren't placed in categories because two editors agree they should be." Okay, how about three editors? (I see that you just Undid Outerlimits' edit to re-add conversion therapy.) Maybe you can explain how your lone, solitary position on this trumps what three other editors think? In any event, at what magic number does consensus occur, according to Skoojal? I can just see you saying, "Articles aren't placed in categories just because 25 people who constitute 95% of the active editors say they should be." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 15:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Back again after sixteen months! Just saw the comments made by Marinero below, which do seem rather sadly to have a fair amount of hard-edged invective in them as well as an unhealthy dose of sarcasm. People who live in glass houses, after all. Seems to me the danger with this whole Wiki article is the rather hardened antagonism on the part of some of the editors toward Aesthetic Realism for purposes which I don't really understand but which do seem overly personal to me and even alarmingly vengeful at times. It really is almost impossible to take their description of Aesthetic Realism as impartial and objective and therefore as accurate. My only response is that I try to judge a philosophy, idea, religion etc. on the merits themselves. Even the finest philosophies have had imperfect practitioners. I really don't care about somebody's personal life or how many times they have been married and all that kind of character assassination. It's the ideas themselves that rise or fall on their own merits and I have in my passing acquaintance with Aesthetic Realism found the philosophy itself quite sound and very worthwhile. I am quite sure there are many people who study Aesthetic Realism whose lives reflect quite well on it. I have met several. I am also quite sure there are imperfect people who study Aesthetic Realism just as there are imperfect people in churches and social service agencies and the ASPCA and the Red Cross and volunteering at soup kitchens and food pantries. But what is admirable about all those organizations is still admirable about them nevertheless. user: digital scribe 23:10 11 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.193.68.50 ( talk)
I apologize, Marinero, for not responding to your posting sooner. I don’t come here very often and I just read it today. It does seem to me that your posting makes my point. For good or ill, you are a person with an axe to grind and such people are seldom very reliable sources of balanced impartiality concerning their subject. I’ve known quite a few bitter Catholics, for example. And while I accept the validity of their individualized bad experience with the church I wouldn’t go to them if I wanted an accurate portrayal of Roman Catholicism itself. For someone who doesn’t have a quarrel with the philosophy, you sure do a lot of quarrelling with it. I have indeed read your posts and I don’t see anything in them that points to the positive value in Aesthetic Realism with specificity and depth. They are rather unenlightening on that subject. I think your argument would have more weight if it were more balanced. Your purpose seems to be other than that, at least that’s how it strikes me although I can cetainly agree that you seem to be more angry with individuals in the concrete who study Aesthetic Realism and with whom you've obviously had a falling out than with the philosophy itself in the abstract. -- Digital Scribe 23.10.11 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This is not a blog where one reviews posts. Please keep the discussion on the topic of this talk page: improving the article. Jonathunder ( talk) 14:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, LoreMariano is an Aesthetic Realist, but Wikipedia is an open community, so let's give her a chance to learn the ropes. Even people with biases are capable of writing NPOV, and some of her edits have indeed improved the article. She certainly seems willing to try to be reasonable, unlike the infamous Arnold Perey/samivel. And if she's not, then there are enough fair-minded editors here to catch the problem.
About her idea that criticism shouldn't go in the first paragraph, I decided to use the Scientology article as an arbiter, before I even looked at it. Once I opened it I saw that indeed, the cult allegations aren't in the first paragraph. So I'm willing to concede that the criticism of AR need not be in the first paragraph.
I do think AR's tenets are best presented in list form, not paragraph form. People spend their lives studying these concepts and there's some weight to them. Three big concepts are too much to digest in paragraph form. Also, this is traditionally how AR has presented their 3 (sometimes 4) tenets over the years, so it's true to the source. However, quoting Siegel directly hides the implications of his statements (e.g., AR doesn't just state that people have a tendency towards contempt, they think it leads to unhappiness and even insanity).
Yes, the "Public presentations at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation..." paragraph was an obvious advertisement, and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 06:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
LoreMariano, thank you for discussing edits respectfully. On listing AR's tenets in bullet form (as they've been traditionally presented), you and I agree but Outerlimits does not. Would any others care to weigh in on this? Lore, since you're new I should explain that Wikipedia operates by "consensus" but that doesn't mean "democracy". That is, we don't say that it's 2-1 in favor of bulleted points so that's what we'll have. Outerlimits has no authority to insist on his version, but neither do you and I put together. The best resolution is when there's a substantial agreement among a significant number of editors. When the number of editors is small then there's no easy answer. In extreme cases editors can request mediation or arbitration, but those processes are slow and are considered a last resort. There is nothing preventing us from continuing to change the article to the way we prefer, and then Outerlimits continuing to change it back to the way he prefers, except that there's a rule that there can be no more than 3 reverts in a 24-hour period, and when there's a flurry of reverting an admin will generally come by and lock the article so no one can edit it until an agreement can be reached.
I agree with removing the quotes on sentences that aren't actually quotes. I think you're talking about the third sentence, possibly also the first, but I think we agree that #2 is verbatim from Siegel.
I can't speak to why the Village Voice article is the first cited regarding the origins of AR. My guess is that someone was looking for a third-party source to quote and that was the easiest one to grab. The Jewish Times article would be better, since it's more specific to AR itself rather than to the funding controversy. You're free to find some other (non-AR, third-party) source and replace the one that's there.
About your question about how a source is cited, have a look at the footnotes at the bottom of the page. By formatting the cite with all that weird code, the Footnote format is generated automatically.
I think it's possible to verify that AR is best known for its program to change gays, for starters by looking at all the press that AR has received, including the ads it purchased. It bought ads in three major newspapers to tout the gay remedy, not to tout its answer to racism or poverty, or its teaching method. It got TV time to talk about the gay remedy, not to tout its answer to racism or poverty, or its teaching method. The only radio interview I've granted about AR was to OutQ on Sirius, and you can guess what they wanted to talk about. There was one article I'm aware of about the AR teaching method, but it's in the minority. In 1971, according to "The H Persuasion", there were about 100 people studying Aesthetic Realism, but membership then grew and peaked during the gay cure years, and since that program was discontinued, membership has shrunk again to about 100. And if I'm not mistaken, AR had more consultants dealing with the H issue than with any other specific topic. If you have any evidence that AR is best-known for some other issue, I'm sure we're willing to consider it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 22:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
P.S. From the AR book _The H Persuasion_, p. xvii: "[T]he request for consultations [to learn how to change from homosexuality] became an almost overwhelming demand." I don't think AR ever got such a similar response from people looking to remedy racism, poverty, etc. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 01:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The lead of an article - the section before the table of contents - is meant to be a concise overview of, and introduction to, the article. In good articles, it will consist of 1 to 4 paragraphs. Lists and bullet points belong elsewhere. See WP:LEAD. The lead is not a place for details, but for overview. Many leads have no citations at all, because all of the material that appears there appears elsewhere (with proper references) in the article. Unfortunately, in contentious articles, this is generally not possible and citations are needed in the lead.
Consensus, of course, necessarily involves compromise. I have no objection to listing the three statements as bullet points in the body of the article, as I've already pointed out, though even there, bullet points are still considered stylistically inferior to actual prose.
Now, those bullet points should actually be sourced to a publication with Eli Siegal's name on it, rather than to a self-published newsletter that simply asserts that Eli Siegal said them somewhere or other. We want to cite the original occurrence. If these are not actually his quotes, it's even more important to cite who is asserting that these are the three most important principles, since it seems there is some fluidity as to what's "most important" in AR.
As to quality of references: ideally we want to cite third parties, rather than parties with conflict of interest (students and former cult members). It's improper to - which has been admitted to elsewhere as a goal - manipulate references to ensure that a particular point of view (that of the students) appears as the first reference in the article, as opposed to the opposite point of view (that of former cult members). The appropriate reference is a third party reference. Of course, third parties write about Aesthetic Realism far, far less than students and former cult members do. The first few pages in most Google searches on the subject will be cluttered with the output of interested parties rather than truly citable references. So by all means if you find some other third party publication to use for the first reference, substitute it. In such a circumstance, the Village Voice reference can be moved to a point later in the article with a discussion of the small disturbance about the ultimately withdrawn pork. - Outerlimits ( talk) 01:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC) P.S. I refer to students and former cult members to honor the rights of the two sides to reasonably label themselves.
Here are three principles of this great, ever so needed education, stated by Eli Siegel:
[1] Man's deepest desire, his largest desire, is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. [2] The desire to have contempt for the outside world and for people and other objects as standing for the outside world, is a continuous, unseen desire making for mental insufficiency. [3] The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites. [Self and World (New York: Definition Press), pp. 1, 83]
Preface: Contempt Causes Insanity The First Question Is it true, as Aesthetic Realism said years ago, that man's deepest desire, his largest desire, is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis? And is it true, as Aesthetic Realism said later, that the desire to have contempt for the outside world and for people and other objects as standing for the outside world, is a continuous, unseen desire making for mental insufficiency?
It is perhaps the most compact and comprehensive introduction to an understanding of Siegel's central idea: "The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites."
Yes, let's make a “request for comments” on the issue of using bulleted lists in a lead description.
If there is no objection to using a direct quote in the introduction, there is this description written by Eli Siegel in The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), titled: “Aesthetic Realism: A Tripartite Study":
I would like to better understand what is meant by a “secondary source” since reference links have been contentious. If a newspaper article about Aesthetic Realism is posted either on the Aesthetic Realism Foundation website or on Michael Bluejay's site, are those articles considered secondary sources because they've been published in a (secondary source) newspaper, or are they considered self-promoting/advertising because the website has chosen to include them in their site? Related questions are: Is there a hierarchy of reliability by source type – i.e., blogs, websites, newspapers? What is considered most reliable? What is considered least reliable?
To answer Michael Bluejay's question: For the purpose of putting this behind us and moving on, yes, I would agree to keeping the entry in its reverted state, including the paraphrased principles in the lead.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. In The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), he presented Aesthetic Realism as a three-part study this way:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [2] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity. [3]
LoreMariano ( talk) 18:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. [4] Its primary teachings are:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [5] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity. [6]
LoreMariano ( talk) 18:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Since you made so many changes in your last rewrite of the article, we will have to separate out the changes and discuss them individually - I suppose one paragraph at a time will do; I'm limiting my comments to the first paragraph for the moment. Option 1a is best, I would think, which is Option 1 with standard quotation and citation format (I've also made the 2nd sentence more concise):
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. He enumerated Aesthetic Realism's three parts as: "One, Man's greatest, deepest desire is to like the world honestly. Two, The one way to like the world honestly, not as a conquest of one's own, is to see the world as the aesthetic oneness of opposites. Three, The greatest danger or temptation of man is to get a false importance or glory from the lessening of things not himself; which lessening is Contempt." [7]
Bullet points or a block quote may be the best way to present these ideas in the body, but would be much too much for the lead. The lead should be a brief prose overview. Jonathunder ( talk) 22:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
As an alternative, in response to the objection on the use of bullet points and/or a block indent style, here is a third option: a prose introduction which does not use a long direct quote.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded in 1941 by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel. He stated, "All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves." His 15 questions: "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" published in 1955 in the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, asks whether every instance of art puts together opposites such as freedom and order, logic and emotion, simplicity and complexity. The philosophy teaches "that reality has an aesthetic structure and that therefore the deepest purpose of everyone is to like reality or the world as much as possible." [The Right of Aesthetic Realism to be Known, #260, March 22, 1978]
In Self and World: an Explanation of Aesthetic Realism, Siegel examines how aesthetics is crucial in understanding love and resolving self-conflict. If opposites such as strength and grace, assertion and yielding, can be one in a line of poetry, or music, in a ballet, or a painting, it means these opposites can be one in a person's life as well. However, there is also an opposing hope in every person, to separate oneself from reality, and lessen the meaning of other things and people in order to see one’s self as superior. Contempt is the cause of unhappiness, injustice, including racism and even insanity.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the numbered points:
LoreMariano, I think you were going in the right direction and then got sidetracked somehow. Option 3 takes us away from the progress we've made, because it doesn't clearly summarize the main tenets of AR right away. I suggest we go back to describing the 3 tenets up front, and use an RfC to help decide whether to list the tenets in list or prose format. Outerlimits has seemed to give you some pointers on how to approach an RFC.
Outerlimits, it's Siegel, not Siegal. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 11:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
We need guidance in how to format the opening description. Alternative introductions for the article Aesthetic Realism have been presented on the article's talk page. We are unable to come to a consensus on the use of bullet points, a block quote, or a two-paragraph prose description for the opening. We would appreciate your comments. LoreMariano ( talk) 18:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
This article reads like a brochure for Aesthetic Realism. It is clear that Wikipedia's integrity has been compromised on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.139.34.34 ( talk) 21:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
@MichaelBluejay; @Outerlimits: Let's see what other comments come in this week. LoreMariano ( talk) 16:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
In reviewing the discussion, it seems to me that the prose description written by LoreMariano of August 3rd is more accurate. Keravnos ( talk) 20:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I am resending this Request for Comments as it appears the first request to Wikipedia Style, Referencing, and Layout did not post properly. We need guidance in how to format the opening description. Alternative introductions for the article Aesthetic Realism have been presented on the article's talk page. We are unable to come to a consensus on the use of bullet points, a block quote, or a two-paragraph prose description for the opening. We would appreciate your comments. LoreMariano ( talk) 23:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The requests for comments have run their course, and it's time to start implementing the elicited suggestions, specifically the removal of bullet points and using actual prose. I've placed the emended prose opening in the article. Now that we've moved beyond that, I think we can begin discussion about Lore's other changes, such as the removal of the external link to MichaelBluejay's site ( Aesthetic Realism is a cult). - Outerlimits ( talk) 21:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Let me try one more time to get a straightforward answer from Lore: On July 28, you removed the link to Aesthetic Realism is a cult from the external links section. What was the reason for that, and is there any reason why it should not be restored? - Outerlimits ( talk) 14:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for answering for Lore, B.K.S.J., I'm sure she appreciates it. But you didn't answer the main question: what makes the self-published AR links acceptable, and the self-published anti-AR links unacceptable? What applies to one applies to the other. So I suppose we should remove them. - Outerlimits ( talk) 14:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over exactly what constitutes "self-published". By its strictest definition, the website I maintain is self-published, but then again, so is AR's "Countering the Lies" website, and even the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's website as well. In any event, I must point out yet again that "self-published" isn't the same thing as "self-written", which is how the Aesthetic Realists typically try to describe my site in order to try to discredit it. But in fact, the site contains writings by at least a dozen other former members of the group, as well as *many original source documents*, such as AR's newspaper ads, quotes from AR books, and articles from the mainstream media. And when I have time to add them, it will contain hundreds of letters from Aesthetic Realists which have recently come into my possession.
Which brings me to another issue: Above all, Wikipedia should be flexible. When traditional sources (vs. self-published sources) exist, the traditional sources should be favored for sure. But for an obscure topic such as this one, the pickings for sources are sparse. In that context, sites such as "AR is a Cult" and "Countering the Lies" are some of the best External Links available. And by the way, we *are* talking about External Links here, and not *sources*. The criteria for External Links is not nearly as strict as that for Sources.
Finally, I think LoreMariano misunderstands original research as the term is used on Wikipedia. If the reference is to something outside of Wikipedia, then it's not original research by definition. Original Research means that Wikipedia is not itself the source of the information; WP's job is to summarize from existing sources. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 01:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Um, I didn't agree. Actually, I said the opposite, that AR's "Countering the Lies" site *does* belong. But for that matter, I think "Aesthetic Realism is a Cult" definitely should be included. It's simply the most comprehensive independent resource available, with a collection of original source documents not available from any other single source. Can we get a consensus on whether it qualifies as an External Link? MichaelBluejay ( talk) 02:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder: the official guideline is at WP:EL. It basically excludes all self-published sites with the exception of a link to the official website. Read it for yourselves. Will Beback talk 07:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
P.S. As to the question about "From my limited knowledre, there appear to be virtually no significant sources for this topic" -- I will be glad to provide a list, arising from research on the subject. They would serve as sources for the major concepts in the article. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 19:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I consider it justified to remove the ex-gay category from this article. The article makes it clear that Aesthetic Realism does not currently promote attempts at converting homosexuals to heterosexuality. The fact that it once did so, I don't consider relevant; categories should reflect the current status of something, not its past history (for instance, no one should be categorised as a Catholic simply because they were once a Catholic, if they later abandoned Catholicism).
Furthermore, the term ex-gay, properly speaking, has a rather narrow meaning, and I don't think it fits Aesthetic Realism. Although the term "ex-gay" is used in the article to describe Aesthetic Realists who abandoned homosexuality, there's nothing to show that Aesthetic Realists have ever used that term to describe themselves, so it seems extremely misleading. Skoojal ( talk) 23:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Third Opinion: granting that this is not a topic I know a lot about, I don't see that Aesthetic Realism was ever designed or intended as an Ex-Gay movement, but rather that it was picked up by some group or groups at a later point as a way to convert gays. the ex-gay practice does not seem to be an inherent part of AR, and so it probably shouldn't be included directly (though those groups that used it that way probably should be categorized that way). -- Ludwigs2 03:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Lol, an emotionally-charged rally that gets you teared up and super-excited? Gosh, how many organizations do this? MLM-scam companies, religious groups, sales-based organizations, etc. it's all designed to get you to drink the bitter kool-aid as if it were lemonade. You fell for it hook, line, and sinker it would appear. The difference between us and animals isn't are emotions--they have emotions as well. It's our logic. Try using it. -- 74.34.209.213 ( talk) 06:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I replaced the phrase "making one of" with "synthesis or unifying". I recognize that "making one of" is a verbatim quotation from the founder of Aesthetic Realism, but that does not mean the phrase should be used as such: it should either be "quoted" or italicized to indicate that it is a particular group's phrase OR it should be replaced with language that is otherwise more succinct and commonly used. Not knowing too much about the group, I have chosen the latter. If someone more familiar wants to take the first course, I emphasize that the phrase should be in quotes or italics to distinguish it as intentional and not a merely kind of clunky phrase which is unlikely to appear in encyclopedic writing. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 15:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I expanded this section and added sourced quotes and links to commentary from prominent ex-members, reputable psychologists, and cult-experts. If there is a debate about this information, please discuss it here or on my talk page. I think the even-handed inclusion of this information is absolutely critical so that wikipedia does not become a soapbox for organization that may be harmful to individuals. Am I suggesting Aesthetic Realism is a cult? No, I'm just adding relevant information. But I do believe that the sensitivity of these claims cannot keep them out of a thorough discussion, affording them the same space and detail which the article gives to the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism. Nor do I find this giving undue weight to criticism, as it reflects mainstream media coverage of the group. Finally, if there are liability or slander issues (BLP stuff), please make an attempt to conform to those issues without removing substance from the article. Thanks 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 20:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
IP 71.224.206.164 cannot undo in 3 days what it took a number of editors 4+ months (120+ days) to agree on. Please do not make changes without discussion and verified consensus. If no consensus can be reached, this article will be stubbed and locked down, which, frankly, at this point, is preferable. LoreMariano ( talk) 04:33, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Right now there are only two categories at the bottom of this article, and I believe this gives an incorrect impression. These categories are: "Aesthetic Realism | Changing sexuality"
Can we also have the following: Philosophy, American Philosophy, Aesthetics, The arts, and Education?
All these categories are relevant. Aesthetic Realism belongs to them. They are needed for people to search for this philosophy in the categories to which it actually belongs.
In fact, the matter of "Changing sexuality" is really long past, and should probably not even be there.
Thank you for considering these matters. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 19:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC) B.K.S.J. ( talk) 21:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I think it fall under the "ethics" sub-category too. Nathan43 ( talk) 02:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I rephrased a few parts of the first paragraph. I am attempting to represent the views of AR fairly, but also in language that would be familiar and common to people not directly connected to Aesthetic Realism. This might involve a touch of translation, since many philosophies use language in a way which uses particular terms or phrasings that may be uncommon outside of the philsophical discourse. I'm thinking of "in outline", "instances" in the first paragraph; there are others throughout the article that I think should be re-phrased. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 23:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I made some edits too, also for the sake of clarity and accuracy. I'm pretty new to editing on Wikipedia so please let me know if I do something that's against protocol. I just did a "silent edit" and I took out a link to a footnote by mistake. There have been a lot of edits on this page in the past few days. Nathan43 ( talk) 02:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
LoreMariano,
1) I hope the edit track i've been on seems agreeable.
2) Your correction/reversion of a phrase you called unnecessary seems like a representative conflict that we can find some consensus on. I think any claim, particularly in an article about a particular set of ideas (which are someone/some group's philosophical assertions) needs to be attributed to that individual/group, lest we present it as fact. The edit I'm referring to is: "Opposites--such as order and freedom, logic and passion, strength and grace--may fight in a person's life, yet they work together in a successful instance of art." This assertion may seem obvious, even stunningly so, for you, but it is in fact a proposition--a statement which puts forth a particular theory about what makes a piece of art successful and what role opposites play in that. So, I added, "In this philosophy..." (a clunky phrase, but I think you see the attempted direction... perhaps "according to the philosophy...?). I might be nit-picking, but I don't think that all theories of aesthetics posit the same role or emphasis on opposites in explaining the nature of beauty and successful art. Is there a phrasing which will both represent the idea fairly and make it clear that it is a statement particular to the philosophy, rather than a general truism. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 17:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aesthetic_Realism/Sources -- Here is a page containing reliable secondary sources about the philosophy Aesthetic Realism. This is a selection. Some are peer-reviewed articles in professional journals. Some are articles/reviews in mainstream periodicals. I will provide more. They provide references for the descriptions of Aesthetic Realism in the article, including the assertion that well known authorities for decades have recognized the preeminence of Eli Siegel's thought and poetry in the history of culture. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 02:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
A few things popped up as I was editing the first 3 paragraphs (hopefully not too controversially).
1) What is the connection between opposites and contempt (is not having contempt accepting the negative side of the duality)? The link between the two ideas is not clear in the introduction (though maybe that's ok if it's explained in the body).
2) If aesthetic realism received glowing praise and "high opinion" from numerous articles and scholars, how was it also dismissed like keat's poetry, or einstein's theory of relativity: aren't those two reactions contradictory?
3) What is an "instance" of art? Is it different from a "work" or "piece" of art? Is that phrasing common in AR or elsewhere and I am just resisting the general ability of "instance" to encompass 'one' of just about anything? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 10:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that some categories, including, most inclusively, Education, were added to the article. I'd like to discuss the inclusion of other categories and "See Also" Links. Some are uncontroversial, some are not. The most controversial ones rehash territory which we have not resolved, and I don't presume to simply include them without addressing the larger issues (or let them hang as a kind of guilt-by-category association). Nevertheless, the list is broadly construed to allow for an interested reader to approach a wide range of material, background information, and opposing opinions, and make up his or her own opinion.
Categories:
See Also:
71.224.206.164 ( talk) 21:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
As we editors work together to see which sentences in the article on Aesthetic Realism should stay, which should change, and which should be added, we need to be aware more keenly than ever which sentences are true and which are not. This is a simple criterion that every sincere encyclopedist can agree with.
Wikipedia differentiates between reliable secondary sources and ones that are not reliable. This implies that some sources may not be true. After all, what else can make a source unreliable? However, I don’t wish to belabor the obvious.
Point One.
In paragraph three of this article, there now is this phrase: “praise in several articles, professional journals.” It used to be “praise in articles, professional journals.“ Not to nitpick, “several” is the wrong word. It doesn’t convey the truth. “Several” means only a few: Webster’s says it means “more than one and less than many.” If we check the facts, asking "How many articles are there, really?" we find on the following four pages a great deal of writing (including hundreds, perhaps, of articles) about the Aesthetic Realism philosophy, written by authors who describe it as having a preeminent value for America and the world.
(1) Aesthetic Realism in the Press < http://www.aestheticrealism.net/index-press.html > (2) Poets, literary critics, scholars, and others comment on the importance of Eli Siegel's work in their own fields of expertise. This includes reviews in the NY Times and elsewhere. < http://www.counteringthelies.com/reviews-and-more.html > (3) Articles on about the Aesthetic Realism Teaching Method. < http://www.aestheticrealism.org/Education_link.htm > (4) Articles in The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known < http://www.aestheticrealism.net/tro/sitemap.html > (5) Articles in a Wikipedia page of sources on Aesthetic Realism < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aesthetic_Realism/Sources >
There is surely some duplication among these, but the number is sufficient to show that the phrase “some articles” needs to be altered. Therefore I am removing the word “some.”
Point Two.
The two newpaper articles in which Aesthetic Realism is attacked – one attack in the New York Post and the other in the Baltimore Jewish Times -- are NOT reliable sources. And we should act accordingly as editors.
FIRST: As everyone knows, the New York Post is hostile to anything that represents economic or racial justice and we can rely in the Post to lie about them and make them look bad. Therefore we should not be surprised at what it wrote about Aesthetic Realism—in an article exhumed by Michael Bluejay from the last century and reprinted on his web pages. As a “reliable” source, the Post does not qualify.
Devorah Tarrow tells: “This tabloid is known also for attacking virulently whatever doesn't go along with its right-wing agenda, including unions and other progressive organizations and causes. (Again, what do the facts matter?) See < http://www.counteringthelies.com/Post-article-comment.html >
SECOND: The Baltimore Jewish Times article, also exhumed by Michael Bluejay, is a carefully constructed hatchet job that is riddled with cleverly concealed falsehoods and innuendoes. It is clear that the writer is impelled by malice. For more details see “From the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's Response to the Baltimore Jewish Times article, Aug. 27, 2003” – at < http://www.counteringthelies.com/appendix.htm >
The language and “factoids” used in both Post and Times articles are so biased, so POV, they would not qualilfy for an article in Wikipedia. It would be too ironic for them to be good enough to be designated “reliable sources”!
THIRD. We should not suppose that the lies about Aesthetic Realism online have no effect. For example, one lie on the Bluejay web pages got all the way to Amsterdam to the STORMFRONT.org website, a site run by Nazis, which links to Michaelbluejay.com. Perhaps later I’ll ask someone to translate the hate speech in Dutch that Mr. Bluejay unfortunately has encouraged with his distorted way of commenting on Aesthetic Realism. The Stormfront posting I refer to begins: ”De jood Eli Siegel, stichter van aestetic realism…” which means, “The Jew Eli Siegel, founder of Aesthetic Realism…” And here is the quote from Bluejay (I hasten to add, Bluejay is lying):
< I cut and pasted this quotation from the stormfront URL: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1994796 >
Stormfront.org concludes that the information from Mr. Bluejay “is an important indication that Jews do have a hidden agenda and focus on the breaking of any opposition and criticism in order to achieve their goal.” Tell me, is this dangerous or what?
IN CONCLUSION:
To put it politely, both the articles -- Post and Times – are driven by deliberate malice against living individuals. Wikipedia has in the last year or so shown increased sensitivity toward malicious lies in the Wikipedia biographies of living individuals and wants to prevent them. This article is not a biography. But it still contains malicious lies and links to them. The false information in this article also should be eliminated for the same reason as it is eliminated in biographies: it damages reputations and is, plainly, cruel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B.K.S.J. ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I am amazed to see the Post described as a reliable source. I can only think that you haven't actually seen a copy. Wikipedia's own article on the New York Post quotes this statement by the Columbia Journalism Review: "The New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem – a force for evil." In the same Wikipedia article are listed numerous examples of the Post's racism, distortion, and malevolence. Nathan43 ( talk) 01:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The lead we have now, I'm afraid, is unclear and a little muddy. The principles of Aesthetic Realism don't come forth very clearly. And also, the history of the persons who have attacked it is not accurate enough. This lead seems to have gradually evolved by small increments from a much clearer lead that was written earlier, but the changes were made largely without discussing the particulars. I think too that the placing of opponents to students of Aesthetic Realism, who have even said they did not disagree with the philosophy, is not accurate enough. The one thing they attacked is social--not philosophic at all--making the ridiculous proposition that an authentic school and authentic students were deluded cultists. This means these so-called critics are trying to negotiate a fundamental contradiction in what they are saying. (1) Nothing is wrong with the philosophy (meaning it is true) and (2) the people who think it's true are deluded. !!!!????!!!!
Consequently, I'm taking the lead in revising the first paragraphs so that they accurately reflect reality, are TRUE sentences. I am using a few more references, so that the sourcing of ALL my writing is clear.
I do hope that whatever debate follows is civil. I am ready to answer any legitimate questions.
B.K.S.J. ( talk) 02:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
There it is, I have reverted the lead back to what it was. What I am proposing is the following lead, because there has been a drift to increasing lack of clarity, and too much writing without pausing to consult one another. That is why I made the attempt. I think the fact that the lead has come from so many hands, piecemeal, has made it a jumble. Sometimes if a piece comes from one person, all in one thrust, it gets a coherence it lacked. Then the others can see if it is true and represents their views. The first paragraphs have a different tone and I think they are more neutral and precise than the previous version. The last paragraph is clearly from an angle that some people won't like. Why don't we look at it and ask, what really is true here? We should give our sources, and be critical of them. The New York Post and the Baltimore Jewish Times are terribly biased. Any reader would see that. And they made up things, grossly vicious things. If the facts mean nothing to them, that doesn't mean they should mean nothing to us.
HERE IS THE PROPOSED LEAD.
(Note: Unfortunately, the last paragraph, although true, will need alteration. I hope we can find some common ground.)
While the last paragraph is a swing away from the previous one, I maintain that the previous last paragraph was unacceptably POV itself. Glad to show all concerned exactly what I mean. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 22:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think there is one secondary source comprehensive enough to use exclusively. As was suggested by Will Beback some days ago, let's fix the article first and then write the lead.
I'd like to ask about citing articles that are truncated in academic journals -- for example, this article in the British Journal of Aesthetics, published by Oxford University Press, which shows the opening paragraphs but requires a subscription to view the full text. [23]
Taking the article section-by-section, the first heading is "Aesthetic Realism: the Philosophy." The principles of Aesthetic Realism can be succinctly put. As a source, I suggest the overview by Congressman Eliajah Cummings memorialized in the Congressional Record. [24] This source can also be referenced later under the heading on racism. LoreMariano ( talk) 05:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
This article refers to Eli Siegel's philosophy called "Aesthetic Realism". See aesthetics for the general subject; realism in the arts, realism in theater, or realism in visual arts for specific applications of realism; and the realism disambiguation page for other uses of the term.
...thoughts, questions, recommendations? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 16:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
p.s. Mr. Bluejay, would you join us in the content but keep the personal stuff for another venue...? No one is getting away with anything here; unless it's sourced and in line with wiki standards.
"The prime values of the talk page are communication, courtesy and consideration." --Wikipedia Talk Page Guidelines Nathan43 ( talk) 02:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this introduction is acceptable since Mr. Bluejay's assertion that the two primary ways Aesthetic Realism is known (as a cult and for curing homosexuality) is just that--a personal assertion (POV). It seems to be out of place in an introduction that should seek to simply describe the thing itself--not to promote it and not to denigrate it. In my own admittedly unscientific search on the topic, I found only a few scattered references to Aesthetic Realism as cult, in most instances by the same people and most notably by Mr. Bluejay himself, and even fewer about the homosexuality matter. But I did find many references such as this one from the Darian (CT.) News: "Aesthetic Realism, founded in 1941 by poet and critic Eli Siegel, is dedicated to the understanding of and greater respect for people, art, the world, with public seminars, classes in many subjects, individual consultations, art exhibitions in the Terrain Gallery, musical and dramatic events by the acclaimed Aesthetic Realism Theatre Company." ( [6]) That (minus perhaps the word "acclaimed") seems a far better and less biased description if this is what we are searching for here. The controversial matters should have their place in the article but only after the thing itself has been described. [[User:Jack Cobb [Jack Cobb]] ([User talk:Jack Cobb|talk]]) 23:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcobb1902 ( talk • contribs)
I've undone lead change by Bluejay. Mr. Bluejay, it seems Lore Mariano is working on a lead. Please wait until we can come to an agreement as per WillBebeck's instructions. Keravnos ( talk) 13:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I have not reverted it, but still believe disambiguation is unnecessary and should be removed. There is no other consistent use of this term, so there is no ambiguity. Those searching for Aesthetic Realism on Wikipedia want to see an article on this topic. Those wanting realism or aesthetics will search under those topics. Please refrain from changing the article page before consensus is reached, and MichaelBluejay please discuss proposed changes under the proper heading. Trouver ( talk) 19:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Here is the proposed text with sources for the first section.
Primary sources are used in parts which require a direct explanation of the philosophy. Secondary sources for this section are: "Eli Siegel's system lives," by James H. Bready, "Baltimore Evening Sun" (July 28, 1982); "How a Major Poet Is Ostracizd by Lit Cliches: Eli Siegel in View," by William Packard, "newsArt The Smith"; "Form and Content in Color,” by Ralph Hattersley, "Popular Photography," July 1964; "Contemporary Authors," entry on Eli Siegel by Deborah A. Straub; "Cataloguing Critiques," a submission by Martha Shepp to C. Staples and & H. Williams at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville; "It's better to try to build a world on love," by Bryan Patterson, "Sunday Herald Sun," Melbourne , Australia (April 19, 2009); "From Here to Obscurity: Eli Siegel's Neglected Path to Wisdom," by Michael Kernan, "The Washington Post" (August 16, 1978).
Aesthetic Realism: the Philosophy
Aesthetic Realism is based on the idea that reality, or the world, has a structure that is beautiful—like the structure of a successful poem or painting. Since reality, which Siegel defined as “everything that begins where your fingertips end", is made in a beautiful way it "can be liked honestly". [26] [27] [28]
Siegel explains that beauty is the unity, or making one, of reality's opposites: "In reality opposites are one; art shows this." [29] [30] A good poem, for instance, is both logical and passionate at once (these are opposites). [31] Logic is order, passion accentuates freedom. So a good poem represents the structure of the world: freedom and order made one. Freedom at one with order is what we see in an electron, the solar system, a tree whose leaves are shaking in a summer breeze. [32]
The reasoning is similar for other opposites. Siegel asked that since a beautiful poem is one and many, and reality is one and many, [33] isn't this evidence too that reality is beautiful and can be liked the way we like a good poem?
A primary teaching of Aesthetic Realism is that it is every person's "greatest, deepest desire to like the world on an honest or accurate basis." But Aesthetic Realism recognizes another competing desire—the desire to have contempt for the world and what is in it, in order to make oneself feel more important. [34] [35] [36]
Since its beginnings in the 1940s Aesthetic Realism has said three things must change in order for the world to be better: 1) the contempt for “human beings placed differently from ourselves" in terms of race, economic status, nationality--which is the underlying cause of racism and makes war attractive; 2) the ill will on which unjust management of land, industry, and commodities is based; and 3) the feeling that “the world’s failure or the failure of a person enhances one’s own life.” Until good will, not contempt, is the chief thing present in economics and in the thoughts of people, “civilization has yet to begin.” [37]
Aesthetic Realism proposes that one’s attitude to the world governs how we see everything: a friend, a spouse, a lover, a book, food, people of another skin tone. [38] [39] When we seek self-esteem through contempt, "the addition to self through lessening something else", we have to be unjust to people and things. [40] Out of contempt, instead of building up our self-approval we end up disliking ourselves. [41]And in doing so, we lessen the capacity of our own minds to perceive and feel in the fullest manner. Aesthetic Realism holds that in the extreme, this contempt makes for insanity. [42] [43] That is why in everything one does, Aesthetic Realism argues, he or she has the ethical obligation to give full value to things and people as the mean of liking oneself. To honor that obligation is seen as the same condition as accuracy, mental well-being, and joy.. [44] [45] [46]
LoreMariano ( talk) 06:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Note: this unavoidably also contains references from other threads on the page.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 |
Our favorite new editor just removed the link to the AR is a Cult site, saying it violates the WP rule about linking to blogs. First, it's glaringly obvious that the site is not a "blog", in just about any sense of the term. It scarcely even meets the definition of a [Personal web page], and that article even notes that "Defining personal web page is difficult". Finally, the WP policy specifically exempts sites that are authoritative. And the site in question is plainly authoritative. It contains the voices of sixteen former members, important evidence such as scans of an ad the AR people took out in major newspapers, direct quotes of actual AR books, and full reprints of articles from the mainstream media (with permission). You'll also note that the mainstream media cited both the site's contributors and the site itself. You want to claim that the site is not authoritative? Fine, let's have that discussion. I'm eager to hear what your criteria must be. And by the way, I haven't restored the deleted site in question so that no one can claim that I'm doing self-promotion; I'll leave that to some other editor. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 06:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Labelling something as 'Conversion therapy' sends a clear message - that its only, or at least primary, purpose is changing homosexuality to heterosexuality through therapy. It's possible that Aesthetic Realism was mainly known for trying to change homosexuals to heterosexuality; that doesn't mean that was ever in fact its only or primary purpose. Nor do a few sources that define Aesthetic Realism as therapy show that it is in fact therapy rather than, as it seems to insist, a philosophy. So the Conversion therapy category is wrong. As Will Beback has urged me to assume good faith, I'd like to urge him to do the same thing. I've explained what my views are on Aesthetic Realism; they are unequivocally negative. Skoojal ( talk) 04:11, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Will Beback's comments on categories above ('Second, one could remove salad dressing from the "Newman's Own" company, and it would still be the same company. But it is salad dressing which made the company a success. And if they did so I'd say we should still categorize it as a salad-dressing maker because that is what it's most obviously associated with. The purpose of this category is the same as any category, to assist readers looking for information on a topic. If someone wanted to know what organizations have been involved in conversion therapy then they should be able to find this article.'): they appear to be a personal interpretation of categories that are contradicted by the guideline, WP:CAT, which says, "Generally, the relationship between an article and its categories should be definable as "(Article) is (category)": John Goodman is an American actor, Copenhagen is a city in Denmark, Jane Austen is an English writer, etc. Do not apply categories whose relationship to the topic is definable only as "(Article) is a subject related to (category)", such as filing a teacher directly into Category:Education, an album directly into Category:Music or a book about skydiving directly into Category:Parachuting.'
Will Beback is applying the category in exactly the way the guideline says not to. He is just not on strong ground here. The basic mistake is in thinking that something qualifies as "Conversion therapy" if it is used among other things to change homosexuality to heterosexuality. Conversion therapy means therapies that only change sexual orientation, so it's absolutely clear that Beback is wrong (and this holds even if one were to grant the description of Aesthetic Realism as "therapy"). Skoojal ( talk) 04:16, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Skoojal, I think you have to find some support for your positions. You can just march in here and dictate that your way is the only way, dismissing everyone else out of hand. You don't think AR should be classed as Conversion Therapy despite other editors who think it should? Fine, then rally some support for your position. As long as it's just you saying it, then considering the nature of your discourse, I'm not taking your objection very seriously. (And if you want to claim that this entry means I'm desperate and have "run out of arguments", then great, have a ball.) MichaelBluejay ( talk) 15:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC) P.S. You said "Articles aren't placed in categories because two editors agree they should be." Okay, how about three editors? (I see that you just Undid Outerlimits' edit to re-add conversion therapy.) Maybe you can explain how your lone, solitary position on this trumps what three other editors think? In any event, at what magic number does consensus occur, according to Skoojal? I can just see you saying, "Articles aren't placed in categories just because 25 people who constitute 95% of the active editors say they should be." MichaelBluejay ( talk) 15:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Back again after sixteen months! Just saw the comments made by Marinero below, which do seem rather sadly to have a fair amount of hard-edged invective in them as well as an unhealthy dose of sarcasm. People who live in glass houses, after all. Seems to me the danger with this whole Wiki article is the rather hardened antagonism on the part of some of the editors toward Aesthetic Realism for purposes which I don't really understand but which do seem overly personal to me and even alarmingly vengeful at times. It really is almost impossible to take their description of Aesthetic Realism as impartial and objective and therefore as accurate. My only response is that I try to judge a philosophy, idea, religion etc. on the merits themselves. Even the finest philosophies have had imperfect practitioners. I really don't care about somebody's personal life or how many times they have been married and all that kind of character assassination. It's the ideas themselves that rise or fall on their own merits and I have in my passing acquaintance with Aesthetic Realism found the philosophy itself quite sound and very worthwhile. I am quite sure there are many people who study Aesthetic Realism whose lives reflect quite well on it. I have met several. I am also quite sure there are imperfect people who study Aesthetic Realism just as there are imperfect people in churches and social service agencies and the ASPCA and the Red Cross and volunteering at soup kitchens and food pantries. But what is admirable about all those organizations is still admirable about them nevertheless. user: digital scribe 23:10 11 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.193.68.50 ( talk)
I apologize, Marinero, for not responding to your posting sooner. I don’t come here very often and I just read it today. It does seem to me that your posting makes my point. For good or ill, you are a person with an axe to grind and such people are seldom very reliable sources of balanced impartiality concerning their subject. I’ve known quite a few bitter Catholics, for example. And while I accept the validity of their individualized bad experience with the church I wouldn’t go to them if I wanted an accurate portrayal of Roman Catholicism itself. For someone who doesn’t have a quarrel with the philosophy, you sure do a lot of quarrelling with it. I have indeed read your posts and I don’t see anything in them that points to the positive value in Aesthetic Realism with specificity and depth. They are rather unenlightening on that subject. I think your argument would have more weight if it were more balanced. Your purpose seems to be other than that, at least that’s how it strikes me although I can cetainly agree that you seem to be more angry with individuals in the concrete who study Aesthetic Realism and with whom you've obviously had a falling out than with the philosophy itself in the abstract. -- Digital Scribe 23.10.11 23 June 2009 (UTC)
This is not a blog where one reviews posts. Please keep the discussion on the topic of this talk page: improving the article. Jonathunder ( talk) 14:18, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Yes, LoreMariano is an Aesthetic Realist, but Wikipedia is an open community, so let's give her a chance to learn the ropes. Even people with biases are capable of writing NPOV, and some of her edits have indeed improved the article. She certainly seems willing to try to be reasonable, unlike the infamous Arnold Perey/samivel. And if she's not, then there are enough fair-minded editors here to catch the problem.
About her idea that criticism shouldn't go in the first paragraph, I decided to use the Scientology article as an arbiter, before I even looked at it. Once I opened it I saw that indeed, the cult allegations aren't in the first paragraph. So I'm willing to concede that the criticism of AR need not be in the first paragraph.
I do think AR's tenets are best presented in list form, not paragraph form. People spend their lives studying these concepts and there's some weight to them. Three big concepts are too much to digest in paragraph form. Also, this is traditionally how AR has presented their 3 (sometimes 4) tenets over the years, so it's true to the source. However, quoting Siegel directly hides the implications of his statements (e.g., AR doesn't just state that people have a tendency towards contempt, they think it leads to unhappiness and even insanity).
Yes, the "Public presentations at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation..." paragraph was an obvious advertisement, and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 06:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
LoreMariano, thank you for discussing edits respectfully. On listing AR's tenets in bullet form (as they've been traditionally presented), you and I agree but Outerlimits does not. Would any others care to weigh in on this? Lore, since you're new I should explain that Wikipedia operates by "consensus" but that doesn't mean "democracy". That is, we don't say that it's 2-1 in favor of bulleted points so that's what we'll have. Outerlimits has no authority to insist on his version, but neither do you and I put together. The best resolution is when there's a substantial agreement among a significant number of editors. When the number of editors is small then there's no easy answer. In extreme cases editors can request mediation or arbitration, but those processes are slow and are considered a last resort. There is nothing preventing us from continuing to change the article to the way we prefer, and then Outerlimits continuing to change it back to the way he prefers, except that there's a rule that there can be no more than 3 reverts in a 24-hour period, and when there's a flurry of reverting an admin will generally come by and lock the article so no one can edit it until an agreement can be reached.
I agree with removing the quotes on sentences that aren't actually quotes. I think you're talking about the third sentence, possibly also the first, but I think we agree that #2 is verbatim from Siegel.
I can't speak to why the Village Voice article is the first cited regarding the origins of AR. My guess is that someone was looking for a third-party source to quote and that was the easiest one to grab. The Jewish Times article would be better, since it's more specific to AR itself rather than to the funding controversy. You're free to find some other (non-AR, third-party) source and replace the one that's there.
About your question about how a source is cited, have a look at the footnotes at the bottom of the page. By formatting the cite with all that weird code, the Footnote format is generated automatically.
I think it's possible to verify that AR is best known for its program to change gays, for starters by looking at all the press that AR has received, including the ads it purchased. It bought ads in three major newspapers to tout the gay remedy, not to tout its answer to racism or poverty, or its teaching method. It got TV time to talk about the gay remedy, not to tout its answer to racism or poverty, or its teaching method. The only radio interview I've granted about AR was to OutQ on Sirius, and you can guess what they wanted to talk about. There was one article I'm aware of about the AR teaching method, but it's in the minority. In 1971, according to "The H Persuasion", there were about 100 people studying Aesthetic Realism, but membership then grew and peaked during the gay cure years, and since that program was discontinued, membership has shrunk again to about 100. And if I'm not mistaken, AR had more consultants dealing with the H issue than with any other specific topic. If you have any evidence that AR is best-known for some other issue, I'm sure we're willing to consider it. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 22:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
P.S. From the AR book _The H Persuasion_, p. xvii: "[T]he request for consultations [to learn how to change from homosexuality] became an almost overwhelming demand." I don't think AR ever got such a similar response from people looking to remedy racism, poverty, etc. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 01:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
The lead of an article - the section before the table of contents - is meant to be a concise overview of, and introduction to, the article. In good articles, it will consist of 1 to 4 paragraphs. Lists and bullet points belong elsewhere. See WP:LEAD. The lead is not a place for details, but for overview. Many leads have no citations at all, because all of the material that appears there appears elsewhere (with proper references) in the article. Unfortunately, in contentious articles, this is generally not possible and citations are needed in the lead.
Consensus, of course, necessarily involves compromise. I have no objection to listing the three statements as bullet points in the body of the article, as I've already pointed out, though even there, bullet points are still considered stylistically inferior to actual prose.
Now, those bullet points should actually be sourced to a publication with Eli Siegal's name on it, rather than to a self-published newsletter that simply asserts that Eli Siegal said them somewhere or other. We want to cite the original occurrence. If these are not actually his quotes, it's even more important to cite who is asserting that these are the three most important principles, since it seems there is some fluidity as to what's "most important" in AR.
As to quality of references: ideally we want to cite third parties, rather than parties with conflict of interest (students and former cult members). It's improper to - which has been admitted to elsewhere as a goal - manipulate references to ensure that a particular point of view (that of the students) appears as the first reference in the article, as opposed to the opposite point of view (that of former cult members). The appropriate reference is a third party reference. Of course, third parties write about Aesthetic Realism far, far less than students and former cult members do. The first few pages in most Google searches on the subject will be cluttered with the output of interested parties rather than truly citable references. So by all means if you find some other third party publication to use for the first reference, substitute it. In such a circumstance, the Village Voice reference can be moved to a point later in the article with a discussion of the small disturbance about the ultimately withdrawn pork. - Outerlimits ( talk) 01:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC) P.S. I refer to students and former cult members to honor the rights of the two sides to reasonably label themselves.
Here are three principles of this great, ever so needed education, stated by Eli Siegel:
[1] Man's deepest desire, his largest desire, is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis. [2] The desire to have contempt for the outside world and for people and other objects as standing for the outside world, is a continuous, unseen desire making for mental insufficiency. [3] The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites. [Self and World (New York: Definition Press), pp. 1, 83]
Preface: Contempt Causes Insanity The First Question Is it true, as Aesthetic Realism said years ago, that man's deepest desire, his largest desire, is to like the world on an honest or accurate basis? And is it true, as Aesthetic Realism said later, that the desire to have contempt for the outside world and for people and other objects as standing for the outside world, is a continuous, unseen desire making for mental insufficiency?
It is perhaps the most compact and comprehensive introduction to an understanding of Siegel's central idea: "The world, art, and self explain each other: each is the aesthetic oneness of opposites."
Yes, let's make a “request for comments” on the issue of using bulleted lists in a lead description.
If there is no objection to using a direct quote in the introduction, there is this description written by Eli Siegel in The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), titled: “Aesthetic Realism: A Tripartite Study":
I would like to better understand what is meant by a “secondary source” since reference links have been contentious. If a newspaper article about Aesthetic Realism is posted either on the Aesthetic Realism Foundation website or on Michael Bluejay's site, are those articles considered secondary sources because they've been published in a (secondary source) newspaper, or are they considered self-promoting/advertising because the website has chosen to include them in their site? Related questions are: Is there a hierarchy of reliability by source type – i.e., blogs, websites, newspapers? What is considered most reliable? What is considered least reliable?
To answer Michael Bluejay's question: For the purpose of putting this behind us and moving on, yes, I would agree to keeping the entry in its reverted state, including the paraphrased principles in the lead.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. In The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known, #247 (December 21, 1977), he presented Aesthetic Realism as a three-part study this way:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [2] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity. [3]
LoreMariano ( talk) 18:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. [4] Its primary teachings are:
Students of Aesthetic Realism promoted it as a way for gays and lesbians to stop being homosexual (1971 to 1990), and still view it as the answer to poverty and racism. They use the Aesthetic Realism principles to analyze and teach a wide variety of topics, including classes in poetry, anthropology, art, music, and marriage. The philosophy is taught at the Aesthetic Realism Foundation in New York City.
Critics allege that, while a number of Siegel's ideas have merit, the Aesthetic Realists comprise a cult. [5] Aesthetic Realism proponents say that their critics are attempting to smear a benevolent, scientific philosophy that is beneficial to humanity. [6]
LoreMariano ( talk) 18:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Since you made so many changes in your last rewrite of the article, we will have to separate out the changes and discuss them individually - I suppose one paragraph at a time will do; I'm limiting my comments to the first paragraph for the moment. Option 1a is best, I would think, which is Option 1 with standard quotation and citation format (I've also made the 2nd sentence more concise):
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy founded by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel in 1941. He enumerated Aesthetic Realism's three parts as: "One, Man's greatest, deepest desire is to like the world honestly. Two, The one way to like the world honestly, not as a conquest of one's own, is to see the world as the aesthetic oneness of opposites. Three, The greatest danger or temptation of man is to get a false importance or glory from the lessening of things not himself; which lessening is Contempt." [7]
Bullet points or a block quote may be the best way to present these ideas in the body, but would be much too much for the lead. The lead should be a brief prose overview. Jonathunder ( talk) 22:20, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
As an alternative, in response to the objection on the use of bullet points and/or a block indent style, here is a third option: a prose introduction which does not use a long direct quote.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Aesthetic Realism is the philosophy of aesthetics founded in 1941 by the American poet and critic Eli Siegel. He stated, "All beauty is a making one of opposites, and the making one of opposites is what we are going after in ourselves." His 15 questions: "Is Beauty the Making One of Opposites?" published in 1955 in the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, asks whether every instance of art puts together opposites such as freedom and order, logic and emotion, simplicity and complexity. The philosophy teaches "that reality has an aesthetic structure and that therefore the deepest purpose of everyone is to like reality or the world as much as possible." [The Right of Aesthetic Realism to be Known, #260, March 22, 1978]
In Self and World: an Explanation of Aesthetic Realism, Siegel examines how aesthetics is crucial in understanding love and resolving self-conflict. If opposites such as strength and grace, assertion and yielding, can be one in a line of poetry, or music, in a ballet, or a painting, it means these opposites can be one in a person's life as well. However, there is also an opposing hope in every person, to separate oneself from reality, and lessen the meaning of other things and people in order to see one’s self as superior. Contempt is the cause of unhappiness, injustice, including racism and even insanity.
LoreMariano ( talk) 21:57, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
With regard to the numbered points:
LoreMariano, I think you were going in the right direction and then got sidetracked somehow. Option 3 takes us away from the progress we've made, because it doesn't clearly summarize the main tenets of AR right away. I suggest we go back to describing the 3 tenets up front, and use an RfC to help decide whether to list the tenets in list or prose format. Outerlimits has seemed to give you some pointers on how to approach an RFC.
Outerlimits, it's Siegel, not Siegal. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 11:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
We need guidance in how to format the opening description. Alternative introductions for the article Aesthetic Realism have been presented on the article's talk page. We are unable to come to a consensus on the use of bullet points, a block quote, or a two-paragraph prose description for the opening. We would appreciate your comments. LoreMariano ( talk) 18:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
This article reads like a brochure for Aesthetic Realism. It is clear that Wikipedia's integrity has been compromised on this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.139.34.34 ( talk) 21:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
@MichaelBluejay; @Outerlimits: Let's see what other comments come in this week. LoreMariano ( talk) 16:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
In reviewing the discussion, it seems to me that the prose description written by LoreMariano of August 3rd is more accurate. Keravnos ( talk) 20:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I am resending this Request for Comments as it appears the first request to Wikipedia Style, Referencing, and Layout did not post properly. We need guidance in how to format the opening description. Alternative introductions for the article Aesthetic Realism have been presented on the article's talk page. We are unable to come to a consensus on the use of bullet points, a block quote, or a two-paragraph prose description for the opening. We would appreciate your comments. LoreMariano ( talk) 23:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The requests for comments have run their course, and it's time to start implementing the elicited suggestions, specifically the removal of bullet points and using actual prose. I've placed the emended prose opening in the article. Now that we've moved beyond that, I think we can begin discussion about Lore's other changes, such as the removal of the external link to MichaelBluejay's site ( Aesthetic Realism is a cult). - Outerlimits ( talk) 21:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Let me try one more time to get a straightforward answer from Lore: On July 28, you removed the link to Aesthetic Realism is a cult from the external links section. What was the reason for that, and is there any reason why it should not be restored? - Outerlimits ( talk) 14:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for answering for Lore, B.K.S.J., I'm sure she appreciates it. But you didn't answer the main question: what makes the self-published AR links acceptable, and the self-published anti-AR links unacceptable? What applies to one applies to the other. So I suppose we should remove them. - Outerlimits ( talk) 14:46, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over exactly what constitutes "self-published". By its strictest definition, the website I maintain is self-published, but then again, so is AR's "Countering the Lies" website, and even the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's website as well. In any event, I must point out yet again that "self-published" isn't the same thing as "self-written", which is how the Aesthetic Realists typically try to describe my site in order to try to discredit it. But in fact, the site contains writings by at least a dozen other former members of the group, as well as *many original source documents*, such as AR's newspaper ads, quotes from AR books, and articles from the mainstream media. And when I have time to add them, it will contain hundreds of letters from Aesthetic Realists which have recently come into my possession.
Which brings me to another issue: Above all, Wikipedia should be flexible. When traditional sources (vs. self-published sources) exist, the traditional sources should be favored for sure. But for an obscure topic such as this one, the pickings for sources are sparse. In that context, sites such as "AR is a Cult" and "Countering the Lies" are some of the best External Links available. And by the way, we *are* talking about External Links here, and not *sources*. The criteria for External Links is not nearly as strict as that for Sources.
Finally, I think LoreMariano misunderstands original research as the term is used on Wikipedia. If the reference is to something outside of Wikipedia, then it's not original research by definition. Original Research means that Wikipedia is not itself the source of the information; WP's job is to summarize from existing sources. MichaelBluejay ( talk) 01:06, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Um, I didn't agree. Actually, I said the opposite, that AR's "Countering the Lies" site *does* belong. But for that matter, I think "Aesthetic Realism is a Cult" definitely should be included. It's simply the most comprehensive independent resource available, with a collection of original source documents not available from any other single source. Can we get a consensus on whether it qualifies as an External Link? MichaelBluejay ( talk) 02:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Just a reminder: the official guideline is at WP:EL. It basically excludes all self-published sites with the exception of a link to the official website. Read it for yourselves. Will Beback talk 07:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
P.S. As to the question about "From my limited knowledre, there appear to be virtually no significant sources for this topic" -- I will be glad to provide a list, arising from research on the subject. They would serve as sources for the major concepts in the article. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 19:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I consider it justified to remove the ex-gay category from this article. The article makes it clear that Aesthetic Realism does not currently promote attempts at converting homosexuals to heterosexuality. The fact that it once did so, I don't consider relevant; categories should reflect the current status of something, not its past history (for instance, no one should be categorised as a Catholic simply because they were once a Catholic, if they later abandoned Catholicism).
Furthermore, the term ex-gay, properly speaking, has a rather narrow meaning, and I don't think it fits Aesthetic Realism. Although the term "ex-gay" is used in the article to describe Aesthetic Realists who abandoned homosexuality, there's nothing to show that Aesthetic Realists have ever used that term to describe themselves, so it seems extremely misleading. Skoojal ( talk) 23:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Third Opinion: granting that this is not a topic I know a lot about, I don't see that Aesthetic Realism was ever designed or intended as an Ex-Gay movement, but rather that it was picked up by some group or groups at a later point as a way to convert gays. the ex-gay practice does not seem to be an inherent part of AR, and so it probably shouldn't be included directly (though those groups that used it that way probably should be categorized that way). -- Ludwigs2 03:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Lol, an emotionally-charged rally that gets you teared up and super-excited? Gosh, how many organizations do this? MLM-scam companies, religious groups, sales-based organizations, etc. it's all designed to get you to drink the bitter kool-aid as if it were lemonade. You fell for it hook, line, and sinker it would appear. The difference between us and animals isn't are emotions--they have emotions as well. It's our logic. Try using it. -- 74.34.209.213 ( talk) 06:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
I replaced the phrase "making one of" with "synthesis or unifying". I recognize that "making one of" is a verbatim quotation from the founder of Aesthetic Realism, but that does not mean the phrase should be used as such: it should either be "quoted" or italicized to indicate that it is a particular group's phrase OR it should be replaced with language that is otherwise more succinct and commonly used. Not knowing too much about the group, I have chosen the latter. If someone more familiar wants to take the first course, I emphasize that the phrase should be in quotes or italics to distinguish it as intentional and not a merely kind of clunky phrase which is unlikely to appear in encyclopedic writing. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 15:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
I expanded this section and added sourced quotes and links to commentary from prominent ex-members, reputable psychologists, and cult-experts. If there is a debate about this information, please discuss it here or on my talk page. I think the even-handed inclusion of this information is absolutely critical so that wikipedia does not become a soapbox for organization that may be harmful to individuals. Am I suggesting Aesthetic Realism is a cult? No, I'm just adding relevant information. But I do believe that the sensitivity of these claims cannot keep them out of a thorough discussion, affording them the same space and detail which the article gives to the philosophy of Aesthetic Realism. Nor do I find this giving undue weight to criticism, as it reflects mainstream media coverage of the group. Finally, if there are liability or slander issues (BLP stuff), please make an attempt to conform to those issues without removing substance from the article. Thanks 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 20:25, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
IP 71.224.206.164 cannot undo in 3 days what it took a number of editors 4+ months (120+ days) to agree on. Please do not make changes without discussion and verified consensus. If no consensus can be reached, this article will be stubbed and locked down, which, frankly, at this point, is preferable. LoreMariano ( talk) 04:33, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Right now there are only two categories at the bottom of this article, and I believe this gives an incorrect impression. These categories are: "Aesthetic Realism | Changing sexuality"
Can we also have the following: Philosophy, American Philosophy, Aesthetics, The arts, and Education?
All these categories are relevant. Aesthetic Realism belongs to them. They are needed for people to search for this philosophy in the categories to which it actually belongs.
In fact, the matter of "Changing sexuality" is really long past, and should probably not even be there.
Thank you for considering these matters. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 19:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC) B.K.S.J. ( talk) 21:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I think it fall under the "ethics" sub-category too. Nathan43 ( talk) 02:51, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I rephrased a few parts of the first paragraph. I am attempting to represent the views of AR fairly, but also in language that would be familiar and common to people not directly connected to Aesthetic Realism. This might involve a touch of translation, since many philosophies use language in a way which uses particular terms or phrasings that may be uncommon outside of the philsophical discourse. I'm thinking of "in outline", "instances" in the first paragraph; there are others throughout the article that I think should be re-phrased. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 23:25, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
I made some edits too, also for the sake of clarity and accuracy. I'm pretty new to editing on Wikipedia so please let me know if I do something that's against protocol. I just did a "silent edit" and I took out a link to a footnote by mistake. There have been a lot of edits on this page in the past few days. Nathan43 ( talk) 02:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
LoreMariano,
1) I hope the edit track i've been on seems agreeable.
2) Your correction/reversion of a phrase you called unnecessary seems like a representative conflict that we can find some consensus on. I think any claim, particularly in an article about a particular set of ideas (which are someone/some group's philosophical assertions) needs to be attributed to that individual/group, lest we present it as fact. The edit I'm referring to is: "Opposites--such as order and freedom, logic and passion, strength and grace--may fight in a person's life, yet they work together in a successful instance of art." This assertion may seem obvious, even stunningly so, for you, but it is in fact a proposition--a statement which puts forth a particular theory about what makes a piece of art successful and what role opposites play in that. So, I added, "In this philosophy..." (a clunky phrase, but I think you see the attempted direction... perhaps "according to the philosophy...?). I might be nit-picking, but I don't think that all theories of aesthetics posit the same role or emphasis on opposites in explaining the nature of beauty and successful art. Is there a phrasing which will both represent the idea fairly and make it clear that it is a statement particular to the philosophy, rather than a general truism. 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 17:09, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aesthetic_Realism/Sources -- Here is a page containing reliable secondary sources about the philosophy Aesthetic Realism. This is a selection. Some are peer-reviewed articles in professional journals. Some are articles/reviews in mainstream periodicals. I will provide more. They provide references for the descriptions of Aesthetic Realism in the article, including the assertion that well known authorities for decades have recognized the preeminence of Eli Siegel's thought and poetry in the history of culture. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 02:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
A few things popped up as I was editing the first 3 paragraphs (hopefully not too controversially).
1) What is the connection between opposites and contempt (is not having contempt accepting the negative side of the duality)? The link between the two ideas is not clear in the introduction (though maybe that's ok if it's explained in the body).
2) If aesthetic realism received glowing praise and "high opinion" from numerous articles and scholars, how was it also dismissed like keat's poetry, or einstein's theory of relativity: aren't those two reactions contradictory?
3) What is an "instance" of art? Is it different from a "work" or "piece" of art? Is that phrasing common in AR or elsewhere and I am just resisting the general ability of "instance" to encompass 'one' of just about anything? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 10:21, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
I noticed that some categories, including, most inclusively, Education, were added to the article. I'd like to discuss the inclusion of other categories and "See Also" Links. Some are uncontroversial, some are not. The most controversial ones rehash territory which we have not resolved, and I don't presume to simply include them without addressing the larger issues (or let them hang as a kind of guilt-by-category association). Nevertheless, the list is broadly construed to allow for an interested reader to approach a wide range of material, background information, and opposing opinions, and make up his or her own opinion.
Categories:
See Also:
71.224.206.164 ( talk) 21:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
As we editors work together to see which sentences in the article on Aesthetic Realism should stay, which should change, and which should be added, we need to be aware more keenly than ever which sentences are true and which are not. This is a simple criterion that every sincere encyclopedist can agree with.
Wikipedia differentiates between reliable secondary sources and ones that are not reliable. This implies that some sources may not be true. After all, what else can make a source unreliable? However, I don’t wish to belabor the obvious.
Point One.
In paragraph three of this article, there now is this phrase: “praise in several articles, professional journals.” It used to be “praise in articles, professional journals.“ Not to nitpick, “several” is the wrong word. It doesn’t convey the truth. “Several” means only a few: Webster’s says it means “more than one and less than many.” If we check the facts, asking "How many articles are there, really?" we find on the following four pages a great deal of writing (including hundreds, perhaps, of articles) about the Aesthetic Realism philosophy, written by authors who describe it as having a preeminent value for America and the world.
(1) Aesthetic Realism in the Press < http://www.aestheticrealism.net/index-press.html > (2) Poets, literary critics, scholars, and others comment on the importance of Eli Siegel's work in their own fields of expertise. This includes reviews in the NY Times and elsewhere. < http://www.counteringthelies.com/reviews-and-more.html > (3) Articles on about the Aesthetic Realism Teaching Method. < http://www.aestheticrealism.org/Education_link.htm > (4) Articles in The Right of Aesthetic Realism to Be Known < http://www.aestheticrealism.net/tro/sitemap.html > (5) Articles in a Wikipedia page of sources on Aesthetic Realism < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Aesthetic_Realism/Sources >
There is surely some duplication among these, but the number is sufficient to show that the phrase “some articles” needs to be altered. Therefore I am removing the word “some.”
Point Two.
The two newpaper articles in which Aesthetic Realism is attacked – one attack in the New York Post and the other in the Baltimore Jewish Times -- are NOT reliable sources. And we should act accordingly as editors.
FIRST: As everyone knows, the New York Post is hostile to anything that represents economic or racial justice and we can rely in the Post to lie about them and make them look bad. Therefore we should not be surprised at what it wrote about Aesthetic Realism—in an article exhumed by Michael Bluejay from the last century and reprinted on his web pages. As a “reliable” source, the Post does not qualify.
Devorah Tarrow tells: “This tabloid is known also for attacking virulently whatever doesn't go along with its right-wing agenda, including unions and other progressive organizations and causes. (Again, what do the facts matter?) See < http://www.counteringthelies.com/Post-article-comment.html >
SECOND: The Baltimore Jewish Times article, also exhumed by Michael Bluejay, is a carefully constructed hatchet job that is riddled with cleverly concealed falsehoods and innuendoes. It is clear that the writer is impelled by malice. For more details see “From the Aesthetic Realism Foundation's Response to the Baltimore Jewish Times article, Aug. 27, 2003” – at < http://www.counteringthelies.com/appendix.htm >
The language and “factoids” used in both Post and Times articles are so biased, so POV, they would not qualilfy for an article in Wikipedia. It would be too ironic for them to be good enough to be designated “reliable sources”!
THIRD. We should not suppose that the lies about Aesthetic Realism online have no effect. For example, one lie on the Bluejay web pages got all the way to Amsterdam to the STORMFRONT.org website, a site run by Nazis, which links to Michaelbluejay.com. Perhaps later I’ll ask someone to translate the hate speech in Dutch that Mr. Bluejay unfortunately has encouraged with his distorted way of commenting on Aesthetic Realism. The Stormfront posting I refer to begins: ”De jood Eli Siegel, stichter van aestetic realism…” which means, “The Jew Eli Siegel, founder of Aesthetic Realism…” And here is the quote from Bluejay (I hasten to add, Bluejay is lying):
< I cut and pasted this quotation from the stormfront URL: http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1994796 >
Stormfront.org concludes that the information from Mr. Bluejay “is an important indication that Jews do have a hidden agenda and focus on the breaking of any opposition and criticism in order to achieve their goal.” Tell me, is this dangerous or what?
IN CONCLUSION:
To put it politely, both the articles -- Post and Times – are driven by deliberate malice against living individuals. Wikipedia has in the last year or so shown increased sensitivity toward malicious lies in the Wikipedia biographies of living individuals and wants to prevent them. This article is not a biography. But it still contains malicious lies and links to them. The false information in this article also should be eliminated for the same reason as it is eliminated in biographies: it damages reputations and is, plainly, cruel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by B.K.S.J. ( talk • contribs) 22:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I am amazed to see the Post described as a reliable source. I can only think that you haven't actually seen a copy. Wikipedia's own article on the New York Post quotes this statement by the Columbia Journalism Review: "The New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem – a force for evil." In the same Wikipedia article are listed numerous examples of the Post's racism, distortion, and malevolence. Nathan43 ( talk) 01:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
The lead we have now, I'm afraid, is unclear and a little muddy. The principles of Aesthetic Realism don't come forth very clearly. And also, the history of the persons who have attacked it is not accurate enough. This lead seems to have gradually evolved by small increments from a much clearer lead that was written earlier, but the changes were made largely without discussing the particulars. I think too that the placing of opponents to students of Aesthetic Realism, who have even said they did not disagree with the philosophy, is not accurate enough. The one thing they attacked is social--not philosophic at all--making the ridiculous proposition that an authentic school and authentic students were deluded cultists. This means these so-called critics are trying to negotiate a fundamental contradiction in what they are saying. (1) Nothing is wrong with the philosophy (meaning it is true) and (2) the people who think it's true are deluded. !!!!????!!!!
Consequently, I'm taking the lead in revising the first paragraphs so that they accurately reflect reality, are TRUE sentences. I am using a few more references, so that the sourcing of ALL my writing is clear.
I do hope that whatever debate follows is civil. I am ready to answer any legitimate questions.
B.K.S.J. ( talk) 02:25, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
There it is, I have reverted the lead back to what it was. What I am proposing is the following lead, because there has been a drift to increasing lack of clarity, and too much writing without pausing to consult one another. That is why I made the attempt. I think the fact that the lead has come from so many hands, piecemeal, has made it a jumble. Sometimes if a piece comes from one person, all in one thrust, it gets a coherence it lacked. Then the others can see if it is true and represents their views. The first paragraphs have a different tone and I think they are more neutral and precise than the previous version. The last paragraph is clearly from an angle that some people won't like. Why don't we look at it and ask, what really is true here? We should give our sources, and be critical of them. The New York Post and the Baltimore Jewish Times are terribly biased. Any reader would see that. And they made up things, grossly vicious things. If the facts mean nothing to them, that doesn't mean they should mean nothing to us.
HERE IS THE PROPOSED LEAD.
(Note: Unfortunately, the last paragraph, although true, will need alteration. I hope we can find some common ground.)
While the last paragraph is a swing away from the previous one, I maintain that the previous last paragraph was unacceptably POV itself. Glad to show all concerned exactly what I mean. B.K.S.J. ( talk) 22:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't think there is one secondary source comprehensive enough to use exclusively. As was suggested by Will Beback some days ago, let's fix the article first and then write the lead.
I'd like to ask about citing articles that are truncated in academic journals -- for example, this article in the British Journal of Aesthetics, published by Oxford University Press, which shows the opening paragraphs but requires a subscription to view the full text. [23]
Taking the article section-by-section, the first heading is "Aesthetic Realism: the Philosophy." The principles of Aesthetic Realism can be succinctly put. As a source, I suggest the overview by Congressman Eliajah Cummings memorialized in the Congressional Record. [24] This source can also be referenced later under the heading on racism. LoreMariano ( talk) 05:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
This article refers to Eli Siegel's philosophy called "Aesthetic Realism". See aesthetics for the general subject; realism in the arts, realism in theater, or realism in visual arts for specific applications of realism; and the realism disambiguation page for other uses of the term.
...thoughts, questions, recommendations? 71.224.206.164 ( talk) 16:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
p.s. Mr. Bluejay, would you join us in the content but keep the personal stuff for another venue...? No one is getting away with anything here; unless it's sourced and in line with wiki standards.
"The prime values of the talk page are communication, courtesy and consideration." --Wikipedia Talk Page Guidelines Nathan43 ( talk) 02:42, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this introduction is acceptable since Mr. Bluejay's assertion that the two primary ways Aesthetic Realism is known (as a cult and for curing homosexuality) is just that--a personal assertion (POV). It seems to be out of place in an introduction that should seek to simply describe the thing itself--not to promote it and not to denigrate it. In my own admittedly unscientific search on the topic, I found only a few scattered references to Aesthetic Realism as cult, in most instances by the same people and most notably by Mr. Bluejay himself, and even fewer about the homosexuality matter. But I did find many references such as this one from the Darian (CT.) News: "Aesthetic Realism, founded in 1941 by poet and critic Eli Siegel, is dedicated to the understanding of and greater respect for people, art, the world, with public seminars, classes in many subjects, individual consultations, art exhibitions in the Terrain Gallery, musical and dramatic events by the acclaimed Aesthetic Realism Theatre Company." ( [6]) That (minus perhaps the word "acclaimed") seems a far better and less biased description if this is what we are searching for here. The controversial matters should have their place in the article but only after the thing itself has been described. [[User:Jack Cobb [Jack Cobb]] ([User talk:Jack Cobb|talk]]) 23:30, 5 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcobb1902 ( talk • contribs)
I've undone lead change by Bluejay. Mr. Bluejay, it seems Lore Mariano is working on a lead. Please wait until we can come to an agreement as per WillBebeck's instructions. Keravnos ( talk) 13:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I have not reverted it, but still believe disambiguation is unnecessary and should be removed. There is no other consistent use of this term, so there is no ambiguity. Those searching for Aesthetic Realism on Wikipedia want to see an article on this topic. Those wanting realism or aesthetics will search under those topics. Please refrain from changing the article page before consensus is reached, and MichaelBluejay please discuss proposed changes under the proper heading. Trouver ( talk) 19:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Here is the proposed text with sources for the first section.
Primary sources are used in parts which require a direct explanation of the philosophy. Secondary sources for this section are: "Eli Siegel's system lives," by James H. Bready, "Baltimore Evening Sun" (July 28, 1982); "How a Major Poet Is Ostracizd by Lit Cliches: Eli Siegel in View," by William Packard, "newsArt The Smith"; "Form and Content in Color,” by Ralph Hattersley, "Popular Photography," July 1964; "Contemporary Authors," entry on Eli Siegel by Deborah A. Straub; "Cataloguing Critiques," a submission by Martha Shepp to C. Staples and & H. Williams at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville; "It's better to try to build a world on love," by Bryan Patterson, "Sunday Herald Sun," Melbourne , Australia (April 19, 2009); "From Here to Obscurity: Eli Siegel's Neglected Path to Wisdom," by Michael Kernan, "The Washington Post" (August 16, 1978).
Aesthetic Realism: the Philosophy
Aesthetic Realism is based on the idea that reality, or the world, has a structure that is beautiful—like the structure of a successful poem or painting. Since reality, which Siegel defined as “everything that begins where your fingertips end", is made in a beautiful way it "can be liked honestly". [26] [27] [28]
Siegel explains that beauty is the unity, or making one, of reality's opposites: "In reality opposites are one; art shows this." [29] [30] A good poem, for instance, is both logical and passionate at once (these are opposites). [31] Logic is order, passion accentuates freedom. So a good poem represents the structure of the world: freedom and order made one. Freedom at one with order is what we see in an electron, the solar system, a tree whose leaves are shaking in a summer breeze. [32]
The reasoning is similar for other opposites. Siegel asked that since a beautiful poem is one and many, and reality is one and many, [33] isn't this evidence too that reality is beautiful and can be liked the way we like a good poem?
A primary teaching of Aesthetic Realism is that it is every person's "greatest, deepest desire to like the world on an honest or accurate basis." But Aesthetic Realism recognizes another competing desire—the desire to have contempt for the world and what is in it, in order to make oneself feel more important. [34] [35] [36]
Since its beginnings in the 1940s Aesthetic Realism has said three things must change in order for the world to be better: 1) the contempt for “human beings placed differently from ourselves" in terms of race, economic status, nationality--which is the underlying cause of racism and makes war attractive; 2) the ill will on which unjust management of land, industry, and commodities is based; and 3) the feeling that “the world’s failure or the failure of a person enhances one’s own life.” Until good will, not contempt, is the chief thing present in economics and in the thoughts of people, “civilization has yet to begin.” [37]
Aesthetic Realism proposes that one’s attitude to the world governs how we see everything: a friend, a spouse, a lover, a book, food, people of another skin tone. [38] [39] When we seek self-esteem through contempt, "the addition to self through lessening something else", we have to be unjust to people and things. [40] Out of contempt, instead of building up our self-approval we end up disliking ourselves. [41]And in doing so, we lessen the capacity of our own minds to perceive and feel in the fullest manner. Aesthetic Realism holds that in the extreme, this contempt makes for insanity. [42] [43] That is why in everything one does, Aesthetic Realism argues, he or she has the ethical obligation to give full value to things and people as the mean of liking oneself. To honor that obligation is seen as the same condition as accuracy, mental well-being, and joy.. [44] [45] [46]
LoreMariano ( talk) 06:15, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Note: this unavoidably also contains references from other threads on the page.