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One version from the Darug website, another reported in the papers. The orthography of the latter is pretty bad, but they're obviously completely different. Any idea what the history of this is? Has the first version ever been performed in a non-aboriginal context? — kwami ( talk) 21:01, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
When I look at http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/fair the definition of fair begins:
FAIR, adjective
1. Clear; free from spots; free from a dark hue; white; as a fair skin; a fair complexion. hence,
Recent definitions and use of "fair" has clearly changed and many people now intend it in an almost exactly opposite meaning. They intend to include all people of all colours. Surely, the intention of the original author is relevant, and also relevant is the intention of the current users of the song.
How should this be discussed or ignored in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:3400:311:5440:5F0:817E:7B1C:494F ( talk) 03:04, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Peter Dodds McCormick also wrote another song, "Awake Awake Australia", with similar lyrics regularly using the term "Australia fair",
http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/aaf/awake.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2406:3400:311:5440:64DE:38BE:D942:A4DF (
talk)
21:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
From " How fair is fair? the colour of justice in Australias official anthem " https://journal.media-culture.org.au/mcjournal/article/view/1964
"This paper asks, very simply, what is the meaning of the word fair in the title and the song." and "This song is specifically about the civilising process, about the white man's burden, as it applied to this particular far-flung reach of empire." and "The progress of the white race over the continent is an advance" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:3400:311:5440:CC10:777E:73A1:E81B ( talk) 22:37, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Wikionary gives the following among its definitions:
I'm sure he'd have been using a literary meaning. Hence, beautiful. A "fair young maid" could just as easily be a brunette as a blonde. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:15, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I expect that the best source for this would be the Oxford English Dictionary online edition, available through institutional libraries subscribing to it (I don't have such access at the moment). It gives literary and other examples. Errantius ( talk) 08:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I disagree that it's at all clear what the rationale for changing “young” to “one” is. The official media release ( https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australians-one-and-free) states that it was changed “for all Australians”.
“'During the past year we have showed once again the indomitable spirit of Australians and the united effort that has always enabled us to prevail as a nation. It is time to ensure this great unity is reflected more fully in our national anthem,' the Prime Minister said.”
A part of the reason may be to recognise Aboriginal history, but nothing suggests that it is intended only to recognise that. See: “Also, while Australia as a modern nation may be relatively young, our country’s story is ancient, as are the stories of the many First Nations peoples whose stewardship we rightly acknowledge and respect.” Steepleman ( t) 07:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Is the anthem usually sung in the key that's shown in the example? Some people can't sing that high. A lot of people can sing that high, too - but in my experience even most of those who can are reluctant to do so. TooManyFingers ( talk) 12:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it's fair or correct to say that the viceregal salute has been influenced by Advance Australia Fair, because it was either established custom or some type of regulation or law that dictated the inclusion of part of the country's national anthem in the salute. That is to say (at least as far as I can tell), when a viceregal salute is wanted, part of the home country's national anthem *will* be in there, that's simply how it's done. Its inclusion would therefore be expected and required, not a result of any influence from this particular anthem. TooManyFingers ( talk) 13:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi peoples
I have had a look at the image on this page of Advance Australia Fair and I am pretty sure that the word ‘young’ has become ‘one’?. Anyway, if anyone could change it that would be great. Thanks! Someone764 ( talk) 03:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Oh ok thanks Someone764 ( talk) 20:17, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
It is commonly accepted that Advance Australia Fair was first published under the pen-name "Amicus", Latin for "Friend", and attributed to McCormick who later published under his own name. The decendents of John McFarlane passed down orally the story of John McFarlane, a teacher colleague of Peter Dodds McCormick, writing it together, with McFarlane penning the music and first verse.
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mccormick-peter-dodds-7323
The wording implies clarity to who "friend" was at the first publishing, should that be less absolute in phrasing? Greg ( talk) 20:52, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Why does the lyric under The lyrics published in the second edition (1879) were as follows: say Australian's all, when the linked reference at says Australia's sons? Jmz668 ( talk) 02:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Advance Australia Fair article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
| ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on April 19, 2008, April 19, 2011, April 19, 2012, April 19, 2014, April 19, 2017, April 19, 2020, and April 19, 2021. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
One version from the Darug website, another reported in the papers. The orthography of the latter is pretty bad, but they're obviously completely different. Any idea what the history of this is? Has the first version ever been performed in a non-aboriginal context? — kwami ( talk) 21:01, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
When I look at http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/fair the definition of fair begins:
FAIR, adjective
1. Clear; free from spots; free from a dark hue; white; as a fair skin; a fair complexion. hence,
Recent definitions and use of "fair" has clearly changed and many people now intend it in an almost exactly opposite meaning. They intend to include all people of all colours. Surely, the intention of the original author is relevant, and also relevant is the intention of the current users of the song.
How should this be discussed or ignored in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:3400:311:5440:5F0:817E:7B1C:494F ( talk) 03:04, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Peter Dodds McCormick also wrote another song, "Awake Awake Australia", with similar lyrics regularly using the term "Australia fair",
http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/aaf/awake.html — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
2406:3400:311:5440:64DE:38BE:D942:A4DF (
talk)
21:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
From " How fair is fair? the colour of justice in Australias official anthem " https://journal.media-culture.org.au/mcjournal/article/view/1964
"This paper asks, very simply, what is the meaning of the word fair in the title and the song." and "This song is specifically about the civilising process, about the white man's burden, as it applied to this particular far-flung reach of empire." and "The progress of the white race over the continent is an advance" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:3400:311:5440:CC10:777E:73A1:E81B ( talk) 22:37, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Wikionary gives the following among its definitions:
I'm sure he'd have been using a literary meaning. Hence, beautiful. A "fair young maid" could just as easily be a brunette as a blonde. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 07:15, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I expect that the best source for this would be the Oxford English Dictionary online edition, available through institutional libraries subscribing to it (I don't have such access at the moment). It gives literary and other examples. Errantius ( talk) 08:18, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
I disagree that it's at all clear what the rationale for changing “young” to “one” is. The official media release ( https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australians-one-and-free) states that it was changed “for all Australians”.
“'During the past year we have showed once again the indomitable spirit of Australians and the united effort that has always enabled us to prevail as a nation. It is time to ensure this great unity is reflected more fully in our national anthem,' the Prime Minister said.”
A part of the reason may be to recognise Aboriginal history, but nothing suggests that it is intended only to recognise that. See: “Also, while Australia as a modern nation may be relatively young, our country’s story is ancient, as are the stories of the many First Nations peoples whose stewardship we rightly acknowledge and respect.” Steepleman ( t) 07:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Is the anthem usually sung in the key that's shown in the example? Some people can't sing that high. A lot of people can sing that high, too - but in my experience even most of those who can are reluctant to do so. TooManyFingers ( talk) 12:37, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
I don't think it's fair or correct to say that the viceregal salute has been influenced by Advance Australia Fair, because it was either established custom or some type of regulation or law that dictated the inclusion of part of the country's national anthem in the salute. That is to say (at least as far as I can tell), when a viceregal salute is wanted, part of the home country's national anthem *will* be in there, that's simply how it's done. Its inclusion would therefore be expected and required, not a result of any influence from this particular anthem. TooManyFingers ( talk) 13:01, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi peoples
I have had a look at the image on this page of Advance Australia Fair and I am pretty sure that the word ‘young’ has become ‘one’?. Anyway, if anyone could change it that would be great. Thanks! Someone764 ( talk) 03:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)
Oh ok thanks Someone764 ( talk) 20:17, 8 October 2021 (UTC)
It is commonly accepted that Advance Australia Fair was first published under the pen-name "Amicus", Latin for "Friend", and attributed to McCormick who later published under his own name. The decendents of John McFarlane passed down orally the story of John McFarlane, a teacher colleague of Peter Dodds McCormick, writing it together, with McFarlane penning the music and first verse.
https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mccormick-peter-dodds-7323
The wording implies clarity to who "friend" was at the first publishing, should that be less absolute in phrasing? Greg ( talk) 20:52, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Why does the lyric under The lyrics published in the second edition (1879) were as follows: say Australian's all, when the linked reference at says Australia's sons? Jmz668 ( talk) 02:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)