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Dear Hmmmmm: I agree. If you know what is good for Wikipedia you do not jostle with Achaeans. Thucydides 1.3.1 says that Homer knew no general term for the Greek people but called them by their various tribes, Danaans, Argives, Achaians, and so forth. There ought to be a separate article for Danaans, not rice pudding them in with some other tribe. And since the texts of Homer survive, we know that in this case Thucydides was correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ismark ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Hmmmmm. "The Achaeans were the people of ancient Greece." the people is too narrow when you have Mycenaeans and Dorians, both of whom were Greek-speakers, jostling the Achaeans on either chronological side. --MichaelTinkler.
Well, something happened to the Mycenaeans, and some people still believe in invaders. I don't particularly, myself. --MichaelTinkler.
This is wikipedia! Just change it. I agree, anyway. --MichaelTinkler
Using the otherwise unknown form "Achae" over "Achaeans" is just plain silly. Reverting. -- llywrch 05:35 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
"Achaeans" is not the name given to any archaeologically identifyable culture. The recent info added about "18th century Achaeans" belongs either under "Mycenaean Civilization" or under "Proto-Greeks" (the latter are estimated to have reached Greece between 2500 and 2000 BC). Before the discovery of the "Ahhiyawa" texts, Achaeans was the collective name for the Greeks in Homer. If we identify them with the Ahhiyawa, they become a historical people, the mycenaean Greeks of the 13th century. This article should exclusively deal with (a) the homeric Achaeans and (b) the Ahhiyawa references. We have no way to determine whether the Achaeans already were a separate tribe among the immigrating proto-greeks. There are a series of good articles at Aegean Civilization. We just need to link to these, and History of Mycenaean Greece, no need to summarize that information here. dab 10:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Is there any source which might link the term Danaans to the Irish Tuatha De Danann or the Danua tribe of Sea Peoples? The names are strikingly similar and the mythology of the Danua/Sea People would certainly fit the Dorian invasion period. User:FeanorStar7
It may also be worth researching if the Dananns can be linked to the Biblical Danites, one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Dryley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.253.71.68 ( talk • contribs).
Taking into account the myth of "Danaides" ( Daughters of Danaus),which is connected with flowing water,the name Danaus is propably linked with the PIE root *danu=river. Denyen or Danuna who are identified as inhabitants of Adana of Anatolia were one group of the sea-peoples. Mycenean Pylos was destroyed by sea peoples.It's also possible that the Danites were Aegean.The probleme is with the chronology.(see Greeks-names Axosman ( talk) 13:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Is it correct to state that Ahhiyawa is a place in Asia Minor? This seems to be saying outright that the Ahhiyawa are not the Achaeans, which strikes me as POV. Clearly they have connections to Asia Minor, but I didn't think it was clear where Ahhiyawa was supposed to be. Anybody know? john k 21:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Ahhiyawans and Achaeans were the same people.
But perhaps, the word Ahhiyawa is derived from the word "Ogygia" (or preciously, Ôgygia or Ωγυγια), the original name of Attica and Boeotia.
Plus, it is possible that the "Aegean sea" may derived from "Ogygia".
The people of Ogygia are Ogyges (i.e. Ogy-ges) and the suffix "-ges" was usual in ante-Greek and proto-Greek tribes.
The root "Ogy-" there is in both words Achae-ans and Ahhi-ya-wa.
So, perhaps Hittites, originally, knew the Achaeans/Ogygians of Athens of Attica and later, the Achaeans of Argos of Peloponnesos.
-- IonnKorr 19:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't think Homer ever refers to a geographic entity called "Achaea". He certainly doesn't make Argos its capital, nor is Agamemnon's kingdom (which doesn't include Argos) equated with Achaea. The article seems to confuse Homeric political geography with historical Greek political geography; not really a good idea.
This bit of the article seems questionable: "Danaans is the name attributed to the tribe first dominating the Peloponnese and the area near Argos. Achaeans is the name of the tribe that, reinforced by the Aeolians, first dominated Greek territories, centering itself around its capital in Mycenae." Where does this information come from? --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This article requires a complete revamp. Firstly, it talks about the words 'Danaans' and 'Argives' in addition to the word 'Achaeans' within the article. This is not suitable considering the title of the article. Their seems to be two options either incorporate this material within a larger article perhaps called something along the line of 'Homeric names for the Greeks' or they should be split off into single articles.
Most of this article is also highly suspect with regards to facts. It presents the Iliad as depicting some sort of unified army of Achaeans, lead by Agamemnon, coming from a unified political entity know n as Achaea. This is a mistake. The Iliad clearly depicts some sort of loose confederation of chieftains all from a single ethnic background. Each chieftain, whilst acknowledging Agamemnon's superiority, is clearly independent. Agamemnon is only a first among equals if you will.
It also calls Argos the original capital of the Achaeans. This is incorrect. The Achaeans never had a capital and was never in any way a unified political force. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.104.32.207 ( talk • contribs).
Can someone please provide a reference to substantiate the "Egyptian sources" section? So far, I had to remove an entire paragraph that seemed to contain a mish-mash of facts and unsubstantive interpretations. Deucalionite ( talk) 14:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"scholarly consensus has not yet been reached on the origin of the historic Achaeans, and is still hotly debated." If this "origin" (a creaky formula itself) is "still hotly debated", how is it that all the references date to the 1920s? The "hot" debate might be dealt with summarily as a sideline on historiography of the Achaeans.-- Wetman ( talk) 10:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the text
from the introduction. Homer uses the word Hellenes now translated as Greeks for the followers of Achilles and those in the area around Thessaly. -- 5telios ( talk) 16:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that this movement made by MinisterForBadTimes is rather arbitrary and confusing. The excuse "In order to make 'Achaeans' a disambiguation page, since this article is far from the only meaning" really makes no sense. This movement has caused major problems in articles where the tribe of the Achaeans are (or should be) mentioned. The disambiguation page doesn't really help. A single article about the Achaeans, with references to them as a major Greek tribe that formed the Mycenaean civilization and a name that later came to be used collectively for all the Greeks in the Iliad was just fine, I cannot see the reason of splitting it in two articles, Achaeans (Homer) and Achaeans (tribe) (note that the latter doesn't exist but redirects to the irrelevant article of Achaea (ancient region)). In this way we could split Ionians in three articles, one for the tribe, one for the Ionians of mainland Greece and another for those of Asia Minor, but we talk about the same people of the Ionic language and culture, and their process. Here we talk about a people (the Achaeans) who dominated Mycenaean Greece, thus giving their name to all the Greeks in the era of the Trojan War, something like the small tribes of Graecoi and Hellenes who lent their names to the whole nation, so what's it all about? - Sthenel ( talk) 02:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The fact that an article (in this case the general article of Achaeans) is incomplete, it doesn't cover all the issues and primarily deals with one of the multiple issues, isn't enough to split this article. Moreover, the reference to the homeric Achaeans is done with a parallel reference to the historic Achaeans. Achaea (ancient region) is irrelevant to Achaeans (tribe); 1. the first article in its current form doesn't refer to any classical region of Achaea, obviously you have done there exactly the opposite of what you've done in the article of Achaeans, you have united different articles in one with a large part of it referring to (again) homeric and historical Achaeans and with a brilliant absence of any information about classic Achaea (what kind of info could someone add in that section?); 2. furthermore, what does this article about ancient Achaea (which deals with the Achaean League and Roman Achaea, but even if we had a section about classic Achaea) have to do with the tribe of Achaeans who formed the Mycenaean civilization some 1000 years ago? It's like we redirect the article Dorians to the article of Doris (Greece). You said that there is no need to describe all meanings of "Achaean" in the same article. What do you mean? Having an article about the historic tribe that emerged in an early stage, with a section talking about the use of their name in the Iliad doesn't seem confusing. By the way, nobody asked to include Roman, medieval or modern Achaeans in such an article (I wonder who could write anything about them), so where did you see the equation you mentioned above? - Sthenel ( talk) 13:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
1. If some links wrongly lead to Achaeans while they should direct to Achaean League, we just change the links instead of splitting the article in minor issues. 2. The Achaean tribe of Mycenaean Greece was not a people of any specific Achaean region. Don't confuse the tribe with the people who lived in Achaea much later, who were probably the Achaeans of the whole Peloponnese who were driven in Achaea after the Dorian invasion. 3. The problem here is that homeric Achaeans and the tribe of Achaeans can coexist in one article; Achaeans was a tribe and the way that classical sources mention them (including the homeric Achaeans) can be a section in this article (see Dorians). I have to repeat that Achaeans (Homer) is very close to what I've already described, a synthesis of the two main issues, I don't see any specifications on the homeric Achaeans, the only change was the name of the article which seems inappropriate to its content, so the move is completely useless according to me. Besides, an article about the homeric Achaeans cannot stand on its own (can you write a whole article talking all the time about how Homer call Achaeans all the Greeks?), neither there is so much information about the tribe of Achaeans to have another article. Splitting an article means that there is so much information about each one of its sections that they can exist as separate articles. - Sthenel ( talk) 17:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
MFBT the point here isn't who is gonna be the winner of this dispute. We have to reach a compromise. I totally agree with Cynowolfe, there should be an article "Achaeans" instead of the disambiguation page, and what I'm trying to make clear is that we talk about meanings that are related and can coexist in the same article under the name Achaeans in chronological line, the Greek tribe of Mycenaean Greece that has later given its name to the whole nation in an epic poem, and finally were driven out from their homelands and moved to Achaea (don't get confused by this simplified presentation of the facts, I know that the point is more complicated, but I just gave a general plan of the article). On the other hand, it will not prevent you from keeping this article about the homeric Achaeans separated if you find enough information. But I'll say one more time that even now this article doesn't talk about the homeric Achaeans. Actually, it has mixed stuff about the tribe, the Achaeans in Homer and the classical Achaeans. It's obvious that only all these together can complete the puzzle "Achaeans" and they are inevitably related. - Sthenel ( talk) 02:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
A search on Ekwesh leads to this article, but the article doesn't give any basis for that redirection. Add it. 71.163.117.143 ( talk) 20:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
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Ahhiyawa just links back to the same section of the same article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viciouspiggy ( talk • contribs) 17:08, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I think that the name Achaeans refer to Mycenean Greeks and not general to Greeks. So maybe somebody has to add the term Mycenean before Greeks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.55.71.125 ( talk) 09:12, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities on it. The people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achaeans, brave Eteocretans, Cydonians, Dorians of three-fold race, and godly Pelasgians.". Though it must be noted that this is likely an anachronism of Homer; regardless it stands as a clear differentiation of two major Greek ethne by the author, and could thus justify the addition of "Mycenaean" prior of the term "Greeks"; but again i believe it is trivial. Furthermore, the "Dorians of three-fold race" reference which in the original Greek is given as "Δωριέες τε τριχάϊκες", probably relates to the three Dorian tribes mentioned by Tyrtaeus (some decades after Homer). Demetrios1993 ( talk) 02:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
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Dear Hmmmmm: I agree. If you know what is good for Wikipedia you do not jostle with Achaeans. Thucydides 1.3.1 says that Homer knew no general term for the Greek people but called them by their various tribes, Danaans, Argives, Achaians, and so forth. There ought to be a separate article for Danaans, not rice pudding them in with some other tribe. And since the texts of Homer survive, we know that in this case Thucydides was correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ismark ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Hmmmmm. "The Achaeans were the people of ancient Greece." the people is too narrow when you have Mycenaeans and Dorians, both of whom were Greek-speakers, jostling the Achaeans on either chronological side. --MichaelTinkler.
Well, something happened to the Mycenaeans, and some people still believe in invaders. I don't particularly, myself. --MichaelTinkler.
This is wikipedia! Just change it. I agree, anyway. --MichaelTinkler
Using the otherwise unknown form "Achae" over "Achaeans" is just plain silly. Reverting. -- llywrch 05:35 6 Jul 2003 (UTC)
"Achaeans" is not the name given to any archaeologically identifyable culture. The recent info added about "18th century Achaeans" belongs either under "Mycenaean Civilization" or under "Proto-Greeks" (the latter are estimated to have reached Greece between 2500 and 2000 BC). Before the discovery of the "Ahhiyawa" texts, Achaeans was the collective name for the Greeks in Homer. If we identify them with the Ahhiyawa, they become a historical people, the mycenaean Greeks of the 13th century. This article should exclusively deal with (a) the homeric Achaeans and (b) the Ahhiyawa references. We have no way to determine whether the Achaeans already were a separate tribe among the immigrating proto-greeks. There are a series of good articles at Aegean Civilization. We just need to link to these, and History of Mycenaean Greece, no need to summarize that information here. dab 10:40, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Is there any source which might link the term Danaans to the Irish Tuatha De Danann or the Danua tribe of Sea Peoples? The names are strikingly similar and the mythology of the Danua/Sea People would certainly fit the Dorian invasion period. User:FeanorStar7
It may also be worth researching if the Dananns can be linked to the Biblical Danites, one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Dryley —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.253.71.68 ( talk • contribs).
Taking into account the myth of "Danaides" ( Daughters of Danaus),which is connected with flowing water,the name Danaus is propably linked with the PIE root *danu=river. Denyen or Danuna who are identified as inhabitants of Adana of Anatolia were one group of the sea-peoples. Mycenean Pylos was destroyed by sea peoples.It's also possible that the Danites were Aegean.The probleme is with the chronology.(see Greeks-names Axosman ( talk) 13:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
Is it correct to state that Ahhiyawa is a place in Asia Minor? This seems to be saying outright that the Ahhiyawa are not the Achaeans, which strikes me as POV. Clearly they have connections to Asia Minor, but I didn't think it was clear where Ahhiyawa was supposed to be. Anybody know? john k 21:18, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I believe that Ahhiyawans and Achaeans were the same people.
But perhaps, the word Ahhiyawa is derived from the word "Ogygia" (or preciously, Ôgygia or Ωγυγια), the original name of Attica and Boeotia.
Plus, it is possible that the "Aegean sea" may derived from "Ogygia".
The people of Ogygia are Ogyges (i.e. Ogy-ges) and the suffix "-ges" was usual in ante-Greek and proto-Greek tribes.
The root "Ogy-" there is in both words Achae-ans and Ahhi-ya-wa.
So, perhaps Hittites, originally, knew the Achaeans/Ogygians of Athens of Attica and later, the Achaeans of Argos of Peloponnesos.
-- IonnKorr 19:38, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't think Homer ever refers to a geographic entity called "Achaea". He certainly doesn't make Argos its capital, nor is Agamemnon's kingdom (which doesn't include Argos) equated with Achaea. The article seems to confuse Homeric political geography with historical Greek political geography; not really a good idea.
This bit of the article seems questionable: "Danaans is the name attributed to the tribe first dominating the Peloponnese and the area near Argos. Achaeans is the name of the tribe that, reinforced by the Aeolians, first dominated Greek territories, centering itself around its capital in Mycenae." Where does this information come from? --Akhilleus ( talk) 03:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
This article requires a complete revamp. Firstly, it talks about the words 'Danaans' and 'Argives' in addition to the word 'Achaeans' within the article. This is not suitable considering the title of the article. Their seems to be two options either incorporate this material within a larger article perhaps called something along the line of 'Homeric names for the Greeks' or they should be split off into single articles.
Most of this article is also highly suspect with regards to facts. It presents the Iliad as depicting some sort of unified army of Achaeans, lead by Agamemnon, coming from a unified political entity know n as Achaea. This is a mistake. The Iliad clearly depicts some sort of loose confederation of chieftains all from a single ethnic background. Each chieftain, whilst acknowledging Agamemnon's superiority, is clearly independent. Agamemnon is only a first among equals if you will.
It also calls Argos the original capital of the Achaeans. This is incorrect. The Achaeans never had a capital and was never in any way a unified political force. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.104.32.207 ( talk • contribs).
Can someone please provide a reference to substantiate the "Egyptian sources" section? So far, I had to remove an entire paragraph that seemed to contain a mish-mash of facts and unsubstantive interpretations. Deucalionite ( talk) 14:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
"scholarly consensus has not yet been reached on the origin of the historic Achaeans, and is still hotly debated." If this "origin" (a creaky formula itself) is "still hotly debated", how is it that all the references date to the 1920s? The "hot" debate might be dealt with summarily as a sideline on historiography of the Achaeans.-- Wetman ( talk) 10:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted the text
from the introduction. Homer uses the word Hellenes now translated as Greeks for the followers of Achilles and those in the area around Thessaly. -- 5telios ( talk) 16:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that this movement made by MinisterForBadTimes is rather arbitrary and confusing. The excuse "In order to make 'Achaeans' a disambiguation page, since this article is far from the only meaning" really makes no sense. This movement has caused major problems in articles where the tribe of the Achaeans are (or should be) mentioned. The disambiguation page doesn't really help. A single article about the Achaeans, with references to them as a major Greek tribe that formed the Mycenaean civilization and a name that later came to be used collectively for all the Greeks in the Iliad was just fine, I cannot see the reason of splitting it in two articles, Achaeans (Homer) and Achaeans (tribe) (note that the latter doesn't exist but redirects to the irrelevant article of Achaea (ancient region)). In this way we could split Ionians in three articles, one for the tribe, one for the Ionians of mainland Greece and another for those of Asia Minor, but we talk about the same people of the Ionic language and culture, and their process. Here we talk about a people (the Achaeans) who dominated Mycenaean Greece, thus giving their name to all the Greeks in the era of the Trojan War, something like the small tribes of Graecoi and Hellenes who lent their names to the whole nation, so what's it all about? - Sthenel ( talk) 02:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The fact that an article (in this case the general article of Achaeans) is incomplete, it doesn't cover all the issues and primarily deals with one of the multiple issues, isn't enough to split this article. Moreover, the reference to the homeric Achaeans is done with a parallel reference to the historic Achaeans. Achaea (ancient region) is irrelevant to Achaeans (tribe); 1. the first article in its current form doesn't refer to any classical region of Achaea, obviously you have done there exactly the opposite of what you've done in the article of Achaeans, you have united different articles in one with a large part of it referring to (again) homeric and historical Achaeans and with a brilliant absence of any information about classic Achaea (what kind of info could someone add in that section?); 2. furthermore, what does this article about ancient Achaea (which deals with the Achaean League and Roman Achaea, but even if we had a section about classic Achaea) have to do with the tribe of Achaeans who formed the Mycenaean civilization some 1000 years ago? It's like we redirect the article Dorians to the article of Doris (Greece). You said that there is no need to describe all meanings of "Achaean" in the same article. What do you mean? Having an article about the historic tribe that emerged in an early stage, with a section talking about the use of their name in the Iliad doesn't seem confusing. By the way, nobody asked to include Roman, medieval or modern Achaeans in such an article (I wonder who could write anything about them), so where did you see the equation you mentioned above? - Sthenel ( talk) 13:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
1. If some links wrongly lead to Achaeans while they should direct to Achaean League, we just change the links instead of splitting the article in minor issues. 2. The Achaean tribe of Mycenaean Greece was not a people of any specific Achaean region. Don't confuse the tribe with the people who lived in Achaea much later, who were probably the Achaeans of the whole Peloponnese who were driven in Achaea after the Dorian invasion. 3. The problem here is that homeric Achaeans and the tribe of Achaeans can coexist in one article; Achaeans was a tribe and the way that classical sources mention them (including the homeric Achaeans) can be a section in this article (see Dorians). I have to repeat that Achaeans (Homer) is very close to what I've already described, a synthesis of the two main issues, I don't see any specifications on the homeric Achaeans, the only change was the name of the article which seems inappropriate to its content, so the move is completely useless according to me. Besides, an article about the homeric Achaeans cannot stand on its own (can you write a whole article talking all the time about how Homer call Achaeans all the Greeks?), neither there is so much information about the tribe of Achaeans to have another article. Splitting an article means that there is so much information about each one of its sections that they can exist as separate articles. - Sthenel ( talk) 17:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
MFBT the point here isn't who is gonna be the winner of this dispute. We have to reach a compromise. I totally agree with Cynowolfe, there should be an article "Achaeans" instead of the disambiguation page, and what I'm trying to make clear is that we talk about meanings that are related and can coexist in the same article under the name Achaeans in chronological line, the Greek tribe of Mycenaean Greece that has later given its name to the whole nation in an epic poem, and finally were driven out from their homelands and moved to Achaea (don't get confused by this simplified presentation of the facts, I know that the point is more complicated, but I just gave a general plan of the article). On the other hand, it will not prevent you from keeping this article about the homeric Achaeans separated if you find enough information. But I'll say one more time that even now this article doesn't talk about the homeric Achaeans. Actually, it has mixed stuff about the tribe, the Achaeans in Homer and the classical Achaeans. It's obvious that only all these together can complete the puzzle "Achaeans" and they are inevitably related. - Sthenel ( talk) 02:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
A search on Ekwesh leads to this article, but the article doesn't give any basis for that redirection. Add it. 71.163.117.143 ( talk) 20:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
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Ahhiyawa just links back to the same section of the same article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Viciouspiggy ( talk • contribs) 17:08, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I think that the name Achaeans refer to Mycenean Greeks and not general to Greeks. So maybe somebody has to add the term Mycenean before Greeks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.55.71.125 ( talk) 09:12, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are ninety cities on it. The people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Achaeans, brave Eteocretans, Cydonians, Dorians of three-fold race, and godly Pelasgians.". Though it must be noted that this is likely an anachronism of Homer; regardless it stands as a clear differentiation of two major Greek ethne by the author, and could thus justify the addition of "Mycenaean" prior of the term "Greeks"; but again i believe it is trivial. Furthermore, the "Dorians of three-fold race" reference which in the original Greek is given as "Δωριέες τε τριχάϊκες", probably relates to the three Dorian tribes mentioned by Tyrtaeus (some decades after Homer). Demetrios1993 ( talk) 02:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)