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The section entitled "Academic regalia of United States universities" is going to end up being a long list. Just looking at doctoral robes, there are at least 150 schools that use different designs (either color or shape). If we add master's degrees and anything else distinguishing, we'll have a list that is far too long. Is it OK if I remove it until we can decide the most prudent way of adding the information back in?-- dave-- 01:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
The section on dress at individual schools lists the College of William and Mary as having a gown that "is an open Oxford-style robe, rather than the standard American closed style." This is a standard ICC gown, just of a different color. The ICC states very clearly that Master and Doctor gowns can be worn opened or closed. I'm going to revert the revert of Antony, unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. Thanks.-- dave-- 13:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Any thoughts here about standardizing this page to Academic dress in the United States? I know that outside of scholarly academic dress circles, most people in the US know it as academic regalia. There is currently an Academic dress of Harvard University article and I think either that should be moved to regalia, or this article should be switched to follow the existing pattern of "Academic dress of ____." That would creat consistency across Wikipedia.-- dave-- 19:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The recent change to the image of three Harvard gowns is nice, but I worry that we don't, then, get the point across that the hood is the most distinctive part of the Harvard AD. The crowsfoot emblem is unique, but many schools have emblems on their robes and gowns. As far as I know, Harvard is the only school in the USA that uses the [s4] Edinburgh shape of the Groves system. Perhaps it would be better to include that image. Any thoughts?-- dave-- 15:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about the confusion of my added information. I've just realized that the part I changed was referring specifically to the ACE publication which does not, in fact, specify the shape of American hoods as the ICC does/did.-- dave-- 17:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I've found another nice image on Flickr. It shows an academic procession at Yale. I'm not sure how it would fit into the article, but we may be able to find a spot for it at some point. -- dave-- 15:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
There have been several recent edits to the caption beneath the image at the top of the page. I'd like for anyone interested to give some input here so we can all reach a consensus. The caption, at the moment, reads:
"Two American doctors of philosophy (Ph.D.). The 5-inch-wide (130 mm) band of velvet signifies a doctorate, the dark blue color indicates the field of philosophy. The universities from which they received their respective degrees may be determined from the colors and pattern of the hood lining. The black velvet facings and sleeve bars are prescribed for university trustees, and is a color option for all doctors, by the Intercollegiate Code."
I propose the following changes:
"Two American doctors of philosophy (Ph.D.). The 5-inch-wide (130 mm) band of velvet signifies a doctorate, and the dark blue color indicates the field of philosophy. The universities from which they received their degrees may be determined from the colors and pattern of the hood lining. The black velvet facings and sleeve bars are prescribed for university trustees. Under the Intercollegiate Code, the black velvet is also a color option for all doctors."
1. The first and is necessary to remove the comma splice that exists in the current caption.
2. The word respective is not appropriate in this context because it is not drawing a parallel between two (or more) sets of two (or more) items each. If we specified two different types of degrees, one for each doctor, the use of respective would be all right. However, lacking this specificity, a quicker fix is simply to remove the problem word, especially because the word is not necessary for clarity.
3. The last sentence is, well, really confusing. I've suggested one remedy, but many others exist. Feel free to suggest them below!
Armadillopteryx ( talk) 00:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
In the last exchange, Shoreranger said the following: "if the image stays there would need to be some clarity concerning the velvet on the gown, as there is no color choice for trustees, nod only the discipline color or black for doctors." This highlights a point that I've been troubled with in regards to American AD articles here on Wikipedia. We seem to be treating the Intercollegiate Code as some be-all-end-all for American academic dress. The idea that there is no color choice for trustees in the US simply because this document (which is voluntarily followed by many universities and binding on none) is a symptom of this. There are, last time I counted, upwards of 150 schools that use non-ICC robes for their doctorates (this is actually the subject of my FBS paper! I am not sure how many American institutions grant doctoral degrees, but I'd guess this is a majority of them. There are also an increasing number of schools that use different colored gowns for bachelor's and master's degrees. It seems to me that the ICC is increasingly irrelevant. In any event, this article treats it like it's sacrosanct! Any other thoughts on the matter?-- dave-- 15:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Those of you who follow American academic dress are probably already halfway through the new volume of Transactions of the Burgon Society, which is exclusively about the history of cap & gown in North America. I'll be adding some information from the various articles to this page in the next few days and wanted to give you a heads-up in case someone else is working on fixes. The main points are: adding details on pre-Code gowns and hoods; pointing out that the Code is voluntary and so nothing is required or forbidden; adding details to changes made by the ACE in the 1960s and 70s that are rarely reported and fleshing out the other years already mentioned with specific examples; I'll be asking for citations to the sentences about social upheaval in the 1960s (lots of assertions but nothing to back them up); correcting descriptions of sleeves on bachelors' and doctoral gowns; weaving into the hood descriptions the terminology that's commonly used by those of us fascinated by them. And does anyone know what this is supposed to mean? "... while others [doc's gowns] take on an almost cape-like form." Stevew316 ( talk) 00:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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This is the
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Academic dress in the United States article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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The section entitled "Academic regalia of United States universities" is going to end up being a long list. Just looking at doctoral robes, there are at least 150 schools that use different designs (either color or shape). If we add master's degrees and anything else distinguishing, we'll have a list that is far too long. Is it OK if I remove it until we can decide the most prudent way of adding the information back in?-- dave-- 01:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
The section on dress at individual schools lists the College of William and Mary as having a gown that "is an open Oxford-style robe, rather than the standard American closed style." This is a standard ICC gown, just of a different color. The ICC states very clearly that Master and Doctor gowns can be worn opened or closed. I'm going to revert the revert of Antony, unless there is a compelling reason not to do so. Thanks.-- dave-- 13:22, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Any thoughts here about standardizing this page to Academic dress in the United States? I know that outside of scholarly academic dress circles, most people in the US know it as academic regalia. There is currently an Academic dress of Harvard University article and I think either that should be moved to regalia, or this article should be switched to follow the existing pattern of "Academic dress of ____." That would creat consistency across Wikipedia.-- dave-- 19:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
The recent change to the image of three Harvard gowns is nice, but I worry that we don't, then, get the point across that the hood is the most distinctive part of the Harvard AD. The crowsfoot emblem is unique, but many schools have emblems on their robes and gowns. As far as I know, Harvard is the only school in the USA that uses the [s4] Edinburgh shape of the Groves system. Perhaps it would be better to include that image. Any thoughts?-- dave-- 15:18, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry about the confusion of my added information. I've just realized that the part I changed was referring specifically to the ACE publication which does not, in fact, specify the shape of American hoods as the ICC does/did.-- dave-- 17:37, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I've found another nice image on Flickr. It shows an academic procession at Yale. I'm not sure how it would fit into the article, but we may be able to find a spot for it at some point. -- dave-- 15:20, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
There have been several recent edits to the caption beneath the image at the top of the page. I'd like for anyone interested to give some input here so we can all reach a consensus. The caption, at the moment, reads:
"Two American doctors of philosophy (Ph.D.). The 5-inch-wide (130 mm) band of velvet signifies a doctorate, the dark blue color indicates the field of philosophy. The universities from which they received their respective degrees may be determined from the colors and pattern of the hood lining. The black velvet facings and sleeve bars are prescribed for university trustees, and is a color option for all doctors, by the Intercollegiate Code."
I propose the following changes:
"Two American doctors of philosophy (Ph.D.). The 5-inch-wide (130 mm) band of velvet signifies a doctorate, and the dark blue color indicates the field of philosophy. The universities from which they received their degrees may be determined from the colors and pattern of the hood lining. The black velvet facings and sleeve bars are prescribed for university trustees. Under the Intercollegiate Code, the black velvet is also a color option for all doctors."
1. The first and is necessary to remove the comma splice that exists in the current caption.
2. The word respective is not appropriate in this context because it is not drawing a parallel between two (or more) sets of two (or more) items each. If we specified two different types of degrees, one for each doctor, the use of respective would be all right. However, lacking this specificity, a quicker fix is simply to remove the problem word, especially because the word is not necessary for clarity.
3. The last sentence is, well, really confusing. I've suggested one remedy, but many others exist. Feel free to suggest them below!
Armadillopteryx ( talk) 00:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
In the last exchange, Shoreranger said the following: "if the image stays there would need to be some clarity concerning the velvet on the gown, as there is no color choice for trustees, nod only the discipline color or black for doctors." This highlights a point that I've been troubled with in regards to American AD articles here on Wikipedia. We seem to be treating the Intercollegiate Code as some be-all-end-all for American academic dress. The idea that there is no color choice for trustees in the US simply because this document (which is voluntarily followed by many universities and binding on none) is a symptom of this. There are, last time I counted, upwards of 150 schools that use non-ICC robes for their doctorates (this is actually the subject of my FBS paper! I am not sure how many American institutions grant doctoral degrees, but I'd guess this is a majority of them. There are also an increasing number of schools that use different colored gowns for bachelor's and master's degrees. It seems to me that the ICC is increasingly irrelevant. In any event, this article treats it like it's sacrosanct! Any other thoughts on the matter?-- dave-- 15:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Those of you who follow American academic dress are probably already halfway through the new volume of Transactions of the Burgon Society, which is exclusively about the history of cap & gown in North America. I'll be adding some information from the various articles to this page in the next few days and wanted to give you a heads-up in case someone else is working on fixes. The main points are: adding details on pre-Code gowns and hoods; pointing out that the Code is voluntary and so nothing is required or forbidden; adding details to changes made by the ACE in the 1960s and 70s that are rarely reported and fleshing out the other years already mentioned with specific examples; I'll be asking for citations to the sentences about social upheaval in the 1960s (lots of assertions but nothing to back them up); correcting descriptions of sleeves on bachelors' and doctoral gowns; weaving into the hood descriptions the terminology that's commonly used by those of us fascinated by them. And does anyone know what this is supposed to mean? "... while others [doc's gowns] take on an almost cape-like form." Stevew316 ( talk) 00:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
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