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I'll write this down on talk, since I'll probably get interrupted or distracted before I get around to figuring out how to format it for the article. Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises (2002) [1] Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 06:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The best current theory for the cause of abrupt climate change is the slowing of the ocean's thermohaline circulation (THC). It looks to me, as I start to read the above reference,Alley et al. as though that's only considered the cause of DO events, not of all abrupt climate change. I'll wait for confirmation before editing the article, though.
Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (
talk) 06:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Oops, other reference. Alley et al. was already cited, so I didn't mention it above. Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 06:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I've reinstated the historic events section with a qualifier Andrewjlockley ( talk) 12:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
pls explain rmvl of alley and lenton papers Andrewjlockley ( talk) 12:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
WMC - please evidence your statement in lead re 'archetypal'. I've already asked you for a cite once - please don't strip out my tag as if we should take your word for it. If you don't evidence the stateemnt, I'll cut it. Andrewjlockley ( talk) 23:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
how can you possibly justify tagging a paper that's solely about the 21st c risk of acc with a 'not in citation given'. I'd love to think of you as a wise old schoolmaster, carefully educating an enthusiastic but careless student. but stuff like this just makes me think that's really not the case at all. Andrewjlockley ( talk) 02:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Wow, this is complicated. Let's take a step back and define "abrupt climate change". The first sentence says that it occurs over geologically short time-scales (which, depending on who you ask, is somewhere between a few ka and 1 Ma), and then much of the article is about anthropogenic global warming and present-day threats. I believe a clarification of which it is about would greatly help the above debate. This may or may not be difficult to untangle in itself; it is possible that it will need two definitions, one for paleoclimate, and one for now. Awickert ( talk) 20:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I would guess that the use of the term depends on how far back you are looking. Roughly, if the change looks like a vertical spike at the resolution you have available, it is abrupt William M. Connolley ( talk) 18:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
http://www.agu.org/meetings/chapman/2009/ccall/ might prove a useful (re)source William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
i've seen the ice cores from the end of the younger dryas on telly but i've not seen them in a paper. anyone got a good ref for the sudden change in snow? Andrewjlockley ( talk) 01:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The definitions, examples, and feedbacks described seem the same on these two articles. If they describe the same phenomenon, they should be merged. - Atmoz ( talk) 05:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
So we have a consensus that the articles need to be re-worked to accurately reflect their titles. As per Wantok. Do we remove the merge thing now? These comments are all a year old... 209.6.252.192 ( talk)
After reading and working with two distinguished professors of paleoclimate change and geology, we edited the page to make it more relevant with current ideas and information on abrupt climate change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.15.131.149 ( talk) 19:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I also agree that major changes need to be done on this page. It is inconsistent with how abrupt climate change is being taught, especially at collegiate levels. Weather and climate are 2 very different things & this article gets them both confused. It is unclear to the reader what is considered a sudden shift in climate or weather. —Preceding
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It is possible that this graph is also part of his book The Vanishing Face of Gaia. Can someone with book access check? There is also this figure (S14) from Hansen et al. 2016 (Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.), showing experimental multi-meter freshwater forcing, might also be appropriate for the article. prokaryotes ( talk) 16:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
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Has anyone considered incorporating the Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX) data that indicates one cause of Climate Change we see today is our Solar Systems passage through Interstellar gas? It was launched in 2008 and we've known about this cause/effect since at least 2012.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/interstellar-boundary-explorer-ibex/in-depth/
http://www.igpp.ucla.edu/public/mkivelso/refs/PUBLICATIONS/McComas%20IBEX%20sc.pdf
https://phys.org/news/2012-05-interstellar-boundary-explorer-heliosphere-long-theorized.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtpR8TmZGW4 - Audio is broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTnwjd8CF1c
And for those not scientifically oriented, this video does a pretty good job of describing whats happening and its affects on Earth, the Moon, the Sun, and all other planets in our solar system. Including increased temperatures. (p.s. Video includes supporting data links in the header.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p1BZYTK-rM
Mars recorded ground temperature 2 1/2 "Martian years" (The change is not "substantial" but does show an upward trend.)
http://cab.inta-csic.es/rems/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PLT_GT_mean_evol_LS_10_1631_ing.png (Chart Source)
http://cab.inta-csic.es/rems/en/weather-report-mars-year-33-month-11/
Just curious.
(Philbert) 2605:A000:BFC0:1C:47F:6102:94A6:C043 ( talk) 16:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
At the end of 2009, there was a merge discussion in this talk page. At issue was combining with Runaway climate change or Runaway greenhouse effect. There was no consensus. Reading that thread today I noticed something interesting... not a single one of the commenters based their reasoning on reliable sources. They simply opined. No problem, I can't do anything more than opine right now myself. But I thought I'd leave this note for others, or reminder to myself, to study to the RSs to see if a real argument can be made one way or the other based on sources instead of opinion or wikipedians supposed expertise. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 11:30, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This edit seems just right at this place (looking at the rest of the page), it is a general conclusion that this feedback, possibly abrupt (as NASA article points out), is not yet captured by the models. If you NewsAndEventsGuy feel it belongs elsewhere please move it there, instead of just erasing it. prokaryotes ( talk) 23:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
In this edit I removed "rapid ocean acidification" form the list of effects. Sure there's correlation in the RS between PETM and acidification. Sure its a hugely important biogeochemical issue. Sure it has a direct impacts on three components of the climate system(hyrdo-, litho-, and bio- spheres). But this source does not say that abrupt climate change caused the acidification. Interestingly, other text and sources in this article suggest a feedback between deglaciation and volcanism. I suppose writ large such a dynamic could pump enough stuff into the air to acidify the oceans, but they're still trying to constraing deglaciation and volcanism in the first place. I suppose too that a large ocean acidification event could have sufficiently large impacts on the climate systems components that if we only knew enough we might be able to include ocean acidification as an element in the feedback loops that drive still more climate change. But as it stands, I'm unaware of RSs that say acidification is either a contributing element in climate forcing or a result of climate change. If you do know of such sources, educate me please! NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 14:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
From IPCC
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC
In the General section is this sentence: "It has been postulated that teleconnections, oceanic and atmospheric processes, on different timescales, connect both hemispheres during abrupt climate change."
This seems a tad bit clumsy. I'm not even sure what that means. Might I suggest "It has been postulated that teleconnections -- oceanic and atmospheric processes on different timescales -- connect both hemispheres during abrupt climate change"?
Frunobulax ( talk) 00:48, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Hi there as far as I understand the article it is the same thing as the concept as "climate tipping" (not to be confused with the " tipping points"), or is it something different?
Also since the article defines abrupt climate change as a change that overtakes the speed of change expected/induced by the levels of external forcing, if I understand it correctly, then it doesnt talk about forcing events e.g. such as cataclysmic asteroid impacts. Is that true? Is there source that differentiates these two phenomena of climate alteration? Nsae Comp ( talk) 08:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 February 2022 and 5 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Vermi1ion ( article contribs).
I've removed the further reading list as I don't think that this long list is adding value here:
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I'll write this down on talk, since I'll probably get interrupted or distracted before I get around to figuring out how to format it for the article. Abrupt Climate Change: Inevitable Surprises (2002) [1] Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 06:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
The best current theory for the cause of abrupt climate change is the slowing of the ocean's thermohaline circulation (THC). It looks to me, as I start to read the above reference,Alley et al. as though that's only considered the cause of DO events, not of all abrupt climate change. I'll wait for confirmation before editing the article, though.
Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (
talk) 06:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Oops, other reference. Alley et al. was already cited, so I didn't mention it above. Dan Wylie-Sears 2 ( talk) 06:41, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I've reinstated the historic events section with a qualifier Andrewjlockley ( talk) 12:07, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
pls explain rmvl of alley and lenton papers Andrewjlockley ( talk) 12:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
WMC - please evidence your statement in lead re 'archetypal'. I've already asked you for a cite once - please don't strip out my tag as if we should take your word for it. If you don't evidence the stateemnt, I'll cut it. Andrewjlockley ( talk) 23:49, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
how can you possibly justify tagging a paper that's solely about the 21st c risk of acc with a 'not in citation given'. I'd love to think of you as a wise old schoolmaster, carefully educating an enthusiastic but careless student. but stuff like this just makes me think that's really not the case at all. Andrewjlockley ( talk) 02:14, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Wow, this is complicated. Let's take a step back and define "abrupt climate change". The first sentence says that it occurs over geologically short time-scales (which, depending on who you ask, is somewhere between a few ka and 1 Ma), and then much of the article is about anthropogenic global warming and present-day threats. I believe a clarification of which it is about would greatly help the above debate. This may or may not be difficult to untangle in itself; it is possible that it will need two definitions, one for paleoclimate, and one for now. Awickert ( talk) 20:01, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
I would guess that the use of the term depends on how far back you are looking. Roughly, if the change looks like a vertical spike at the resolution you have available, it is abrupt William M. Connolley ( talk) 18:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
http://www.agu.org/meetings/chapman/2009/ccall/ might prove a useful (re)source William M. Connolley ( talk) 22:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
i've seen the ice cores from the end of the younger dryas on telly but i've not seen them in a paper. anyone got a good ref for the sudden change in snow? Andrewjlockley ( talk) 01:35, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
The definitions, examples, and feedbacks described seem the same on these two articles. If they describe the same phenomenon, they should be merged. - Atmoz ( talk) 05:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
So we have a consensus that the articles need to be re-worked to accurately reflect their titles. As per Wantok. Do we remove the merge thing now? These comments are all a year old... 209.6.252.192 ( talk)
After reading and working with two distinguished professors of paleoclimate change and geology, we edited the page to make it more relevant with current ideas and information on abrupt climate change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.15.131.149 ( talk) 19:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I also agree that major changes need to be done on this page. It is inconsistent with how abrupt climate change is being taught, especially at collegiate levels. Weather and climate are 2 very different things & this article gets them both confused. It is unclear to the reader what is considered a sudden shift in climate or weather. —Preceding
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It is possible that this graph is also part of his book The Vanishing Face of Gaia. Can someone with book access check? There is also this figure (S14) from Hansen et al. 2016 (Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License.), showing experimental multi-meter freshwater forcing, might also be appropriate for the article. prokaryotes ( talk) 16:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
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Has anyone considered incorporating the Interstellar Boundary Explorer (IBEX) data that indicates one cause of Climate Change we see today is our Solar Systems passage through Interstellar gas? It was launched in 2008 and we've known about this cause/effect since at least 2012.
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/missions/interstellar-boundary-explorer-ibex/in-depth/
http://www.igpp.ucla.edu/public/mkivelso/refs/PUBLICATIONS/McComas%20IBEX%20sc.pdf
https://phys.org/news/2012-05-interstellar-boundary-explorer-heliosphere-long-theorized.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtpR8TmZGW4 - Audio is broken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTnwjd8CF1c
And for those not scientifically oriented, this video does a pretty good job of describing whats happening and its affects on Earth, the Moon, the Sun, and all other planets in our solar system. Including increased temperatures. (p.s. Video includes supporting data links in the header.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p1BZYTK-rM
Mars recorded ground temperature 2 1/2 "Martian years" (The change is not "substantial" but does show an upward trend.)
http://cab.inta-csic.es/rems/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PLT_GT_mean_evol_LS_10_1631_ing.png (Chart Source)
http://cab.inta-csic.es/rems/en/weather-report-mars-year-33-month-11/
Just curious.
(Philbert) 2605:A000:BFC0:1C:47F:6102:94A6:C043 ( talk) 16:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
At the end of 2009, there was a merge discussion in this talk page. At issue was combining with Runaway climate change or Runaway greenhouse effect. There was no consensus. Reading that thread today I noticed something interesting... not a single one of the commenters based their reasoning on reliable sources. They simply opined. No problem, I can't do anything more than opine right now myself. But I thought I'd leave this note for others, or reminder to myself, to study to the RSs to see if a real argument can be made one way or the other based on sources instead of opinion or wikipedians supposed expertise. NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 11:30, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
This edit seems just right at this place (looking at the rest of the page), it is a general conclusion that this feedback, possibly abrupt (as NASA article points out), is not yet captured by the models. If you NewsAndEventsGuy feel it belongs elsewhere please move it there, instead of just erasing it. prokaryotes ( talk) 23:10, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
In this edit I removed "rapid ocean acidification" form the list of effects. Sure there's correlation in the RS between PETM and acidification. Sure its a hugely important biogeochemical issue. Sure it has a direct impacts on three components of the climate system(hyrdo-, litho-, and bio- spheres). But this source does not say that abrupt climate change caused the acidification. Interestingly, other text and sources in this article suggest a feedback between deglaciation and volcanism. I suppose writ large such a dynamic could pump enough stuff into the air to acidify the oceans, but they're still trying to constraing deglaciation and volcanism in the first place. I suppose too that a large ocean acidification event could have sufficiently large impacts on the climate systems components that if we only knew enough we might be able to include ocean acidification as an element in the feedback loops that drive still more climate change. But as it stands, I'm unaware of RSs that say acidification is either a contributing element in climate forcing or a result of climate change. If you do know of such sources, educate me please! NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 14:24, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
From IPCC
NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 12:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC
In the General section is this sentence: "It has been postulated that teleconnections, oceanic and atmospheric processes, on different timescales, connect both hemispheres during abrupt climate change."
This seems a tad bit clumsy. I'm not even sure what that means. Might I suggest "It has been postulated that teleconnections -- oceanic and atmospheric processes on different timescales -- connect both hemispheres during abrupt climate change"?
Frunobulax ( talk) 00:48, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Hi there as far as I understand the article it is the same thing as the concept as "climate tipping" (not to be confused with the " tipping points"), or is it something different?
Also since the article defines abrupt climate change as a change that overtakes the speed of change expected/induced by the levels of external forcing, if I understand it correctly, then it doesnt talk about forcing events e.g. such as cataclysmic asteroid impacts. Is that true? Is there source that differentiates these two phenomena of climate alteration? Nsae Comp ( talk) 08:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 February 2022 and 5 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Vermi1ion ( article contribs).
I've removed the further reading list as I don't think that this long list is adding value here: