![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | → | Archive 40 |
If for some reason we can't manage to stop wasting our time on comparatively petty debates, we're never going to improve this article. So please, take these suggestions in the spirit they are offered: I just want to get something productive done on this article.-- Tznkai ( talk) 15:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
So...the image of a miscarriage has been the lead photograph for several months now, but for some reason the image of an induced abortion has not been added. Perhaps to have no images is fine, but how is it being neutral to show a natural abortion but not an induced one (which after all is what we all mean by "abortion.")
Also, the proposed induced abortion image (performed in a hysterectomy, right?) is not a typical induced abortion, but the miscarriage is. So to be neutral, should we not have an image of a typical induced abortion? EditorDM ( talk) 04:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I submitted this just about the time it was being archived and it's now on neither the live page nor the archive. Yes, it was about images; but it points to some useful sources as well so here it is again.... -- Monado ( talk) 21:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't want to stir things up, but I did find an image that has both a little grey "sculpture" of an embryo and a photo close-up of its face. I don't think it has shock value. It also has a size scale beside the embryo/fetus. You can see it at Endowment for Human Development: Face of the 8-week embryo. The site sounds non-neutral to me but I like the image and they might be willing to let us use it.
Re "We're showing an embryo but not a fetus": this gestational age is absolutely typical of surgical abortions; more than 50% are done at 9.5 weeks and under. For images of later abortions, just refer people to Lars Nilsson's book. (I have heard from doctors that the proportions of some of those dismembered fetuses are wrong and they think the feti(?) are fakes.)
Re "Show an ultrasound of a birth defect and then an aborted fetus": I feel that a club foot is the most minor defect you could find and would be unlikely to trigger an abortion. It does not even rate a mention on the CDC list of birth defects. Remember that abortion grows progressively more dangerous for the gravida as pregnancy advances, thus the reluctance of doctors to do later abortions, even considering only the life of the woman. The cases that I have read about have been anencephaly (1/4000 in U.S.) ( anencephaly and ultrasound) There's a non-gruesome image here, and as it's a government agency the image might be available: CDC on anencephaly. The commonest birth defect in the U.S. is spina bifida (1/1000), so that would interest the most people. Here is the CDC page for spina bifida. The severity of this defect varies greatly.
That being said, it's my impression that the commonest reason for a later abortion is that the woman needs cancer treatment ASAP and can't have it while pregnant. —Monado, 2009 June 15 20:20
how about adding diffrent options to the one that dont want to keep the baby, like livig them in a hospital and other resources they can have? Does anyone have any information about that?-- TeresaHdez ( talk) 20:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I've replaced "caustic" with " hypertonic." Caustic means strongly basic, but urea is a neutral molecule, neither acid nor base (see Wiki article on urea). Traditionally, "caustic" refers to sodium hydroxide, or lye. "Hypertonic" is the more accurate term, which means that the concentration of whatever molecule we're discussing is higher than it is in human blood. (Isotonic means the same concentration; hypotonic means lower concentration.)
Another good reason for using "hypertonic" is that it applies to saline solution, i.e. salt. Urea appears to be an organic salt since its chief virtue is that it dissolves readily in water. I think the point is to inject a strong saline solution.
The sentence about "Caesarean" abortions implied that it's considered major surgery, and therefore general anaesthetic is given. I removed the latter clause.
In fact, it's not what's being done to the body that defines major: if you get general anaesthetic, it is major surgery. If doctors can change the procedure so that they can avoid giving G.A., they will: general anaesthesia itself carries a death risk of about 1 in 50,000, so it used to contribute substantially to the risk of early abortions, which are now down to about 1 in 200,000. Monado ( talk) 19:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the use of "euphemism" to describe what, in other contexts, I'd call a shorthand way of referring to a longer phrase. (see How 'vanilla' became shorthand for 'bland' by Amanda Fortini). "Euphemism" implies covering up ugliness, which I think violates the Neutral Point of View. This is lumping two similar techniques together. So, for now, I'm changing it. If that is too idiomatic, would "short for" do? — Monado ( talk) 20:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
How bout this for an euphemism..."forced pregnancy" ? Why isn't it called what it is? Any law against abortion is a law for forced pregnancy. Not only that but forced child birth. I would like to see these two euphemisms added to the abortion debate. hmmm what is the opposite of a euphemism then? Pnoric ( talk) 05:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)pnoric
can someone add information to the abortion law section for me, one part states "In the United Kingdom, as in some other countries, two doctors must first certify that an abortion is medically or socially necessary before it can be performed." this appears as though it applies to the whole of the UK but in Northern Ireland abortion is illegal, you can't travel to get one nor can you supply information on where/how to get one. RyanM651 ( talk) 02:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The MOS frowns on slashes. Yet, we have a slash in the opening sentence: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus/ embryo, resulting in or caused by its death." It's understandable that people would want to avoid having yet another "or" in this sentence, but I think a slight rephrase could easily remove the slash, while also giving the reader a slight clue about the difference between the linked terms (so the reader will know which one to click on).
So, how about this: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of an embryo (instead a fetus later in pregnancy) resulting in or caused by its death." Ferrylodge ( talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Someone objected to the use of a reference from Nicaragua on the grounds that it was biased and Nicaragua-specific. The next point is Bangladesh-specific--so what? the article reports, or should report, facts from around the world.
A few nations ban abortion entirely: Chile, El Salvador, Ireland, Malta, and Nicaragua, with consequent rises in maternal death directly and indirectly due to pregnancy. [1]
- ^ "European delegation visits Nicaragua to examine effects of abortion ban (November 26, 2007)". Ipas. Retrieved 2009-06-15.
Nicaragua was used because it is a location in which laws against abortion were changed on a specific date, with a specific objectively measurable result in public health: at least 82 deaths of women of childbearing age in the months immediately following. The source may be "biased," I don't know; but the facts are not in dispute. The bias may only be that the organization cared to report the results of the law's passage and of the delegation's findings.
If death isn't a consequence worth reporting, what is a relevant consequence? A debunked rumor that abortion causes breast cancer? -- Monado ( talk) 15:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm well aware of the guiding principles; NOR and MEDRS do not apply to the content, therefore your posting them was unhelpful; your childish "I'll comment if I want" ignores my objection to your post was that it was inapplicable, and therefore useless in this situation. Bias is a more tenable objection. As most of the content in this article is US centric, that the suggested content is Nicaragua based is an argument for inclusion, not exclusion, in order to promote a less biased worldview. I support inclusion of the material, and invite participation in a discussion regarding whether the source is biased; how biased it might be; and how to phrase the content for accuracy. KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 17:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I'm sorry, are you calling the World Health Organization biased? KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 12:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Have any pro-life/anti-abortion activists ever expressed the view that certain kinds of abortion could be a form of honor killing ? In many kinds of ways, it brings shame to a woman or girl who is forced to carry out her pregnancy, and in late-term cases, many people would agree that terminating a fairly developed fetus does constitute a killing per se. [1] Other possible cases of honor killing would be the unlawful murdering of abortion providers such as George Tiller for motives of honor. [2] There is also a strange opposite phenomenon of providing free abortions in honor of slain abortionists. [3] ADM ( talk) 10:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
This topic should receive little or no space since it is a busted myth. The papers lovingly referred to in the footnotes are all 25 - 30 years old. It was a hypothesis that didn't work out. Much larger sample sizes and reviews failed to find any link between abortion and breast cancer. Any summary should point that out. If I recall correctly, if there was any association it was with being pregnant for too long and not breastfeeding. Monado ( talk) 02:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The main article at Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis makes it fairly clear its bunk, but I agree the synopsis here needs reworking for clarity. The verbiage we now have does not make it clear this has been thoroughly dismissed by the medical community (ie; all people in the medical field not currently getting paid to testify for lawsuits.) KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 11:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
You may have noticed some conflicting edits in abortion-related articles regarding what to call women who get pregnant. There's an open discussion here that could probably benefit from more eyes. 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The long-standing objective definition was collectively and painstakingly developed by dozens of editors (with diverse viewpoints, backgrounds, and knowledge) over a period of months; in the end, a formulation that includes reference to the death of the fetus was found to be necessary in order to be scientifically and medically accurate and objective.
Lacking this scientifically and medically necessary refence to fetal death, the recently edited version ("termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo" )is inaccurate and subjective (and thus highly un-wikipedia).
While countless hours were spent debating many substantive concerns on all angles of this specific "death of the fetus" topic, one common pregnancy situation exemplifies that there is no abortion unless expulsion or removal of the fetus causes or was caused by fetal death.
When a doctor removes a healthy baby from the mother's womb during a C-section and hands it to the father, there has been a "termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo", but no abortion. This and other examples are unassailable reasons that any accurate definition must cover fetal demise (which in plain English is death of the fetus or fetal death)
The fact that all pregnancies terminate renders the euphemism "termination of pregnancy" inadequate to describe the fetal death that is always part of abortion; we can call to mind any pregnancy that ends in a live birth, and also recall that artificially induced labor is one type of induced termination of pregnancy.
When a woman carrying twins experiences the "removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus" via abortion (selective reduction or miscarriage) of 1 of the fetuses at week 12, and 19 weeks later she delivers the other healthy twin; the continued development (aka life) of the first fetal twin was aborted at week 12, but there was certainly no "termination of pregnancy" until the healthy second twin was born at week 31.
71.52.188.76 ( talk) 15:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
There has been bit of back and forth on the talk page for Indirect abortion over whether to use the term "mother" or "pregnant woman" and we're trying to work something out but haven’t really arrived at a conclusion yet and could use more opinions. Please stop by if you've got time. - Schrandit ( talk) 15:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Certain pro-life activists have highlighted the phenomenon of abortion addictions in certain women as evidence that abortion is very often not a choice, but rather that it is much closer to the status of a social pathology. It might a good thing if we could a least have a stub on this matter. [5] ADM ( talk) 08:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
New Law in Spain 92.252.116.53 ( talk) 22:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Feel free to add more, so it can all be eventually incorporated to the article.
About 19% of teens have had sex and became pregnant each year, and from that 19% about 78% of those were unplanned. Only 5% of women who need contraception are not using a method and yet they are accountable for the 47% of the 3 Million unwanted pregnancies each year in the United States. Without contraception services federal, state and Medicaid expenditures would increase by $1.2 Billion a year. Lelek310 ( talk) 19:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I am one of the people who has made an effort to ensure WP:NPOV by using the term "pregnant woman" when referring to women who are pregnant and may or may not ever become mothers. While there does appear to be a consensus for this, there is also discussion in various venues. Rather than demanding that people bounce around article and editor talk pages to follow the thread of conversation, I'd like to centralize the discussion here, so that we don't have to repeat ourselves.
Briefly, my argument is that "mother" is neither accurate nor neutral, while "pregnant woman" is demonstrably both. As such, WP:NPOV requires us to avoid the former consistently. I recognize that this restriction of neutrality applies to Wikipedia, not to our sources, so we should expect to see "mother" pop up in some direct quotes, but that's not an argument for using it ourselves.
I welcome reasoned discussion regarding this topic, but have little interest in discussing my own personal views, as they are immaterial. CarolineWH ( talk) 16:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me, the word "mother" is not currently being used in this article to refer to pregnant women. While perhaps topical, your discussion does not relate to the content of this article. Perhaps a MoS page or a WikiProject page may be a more appropriate venue (and perhaps a RfC to boot, if either one of you is proposing some site wide style guide). I'm not trying to shut down discussion, per se, but I want to direct you to perhaps more appropriate venues. Thanks. - Andrew c [talk] 00:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I'll admit to not reading this in its entirety, but my remaining preference on terminology is in the following order: gravida, woman, female, mother.--
Tznkai (
talk)
19:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
While we were discussing the issue, two of the participants decided jump the gun and start changing articles to ensure that their preferred version was in place. CarolineWH ( talk) 16:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
As a courtesy, I'd like to mention that I've made some changes to two forks of this article: pro-choice and pro-life. I'm acknowledging this here so that you can offer appropriate feedback. CarolineWH ( talk) 05:21, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to bring up this heated debate once again, But shouldn't we euphemize the word "Death" in the first paragraph to match the article on Miscarriage? This would bring us closer to standardization and a non bias.
BFPIERCE ( talk) 04:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Abortion is now legal in Spain on request, up to 14th week of pregnancy. Please update the map. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.113.21.164 ( talk) 22:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Both houses in Spain now allow abortion on request.
This Israeli site: [ Rabbis] tells that Rabbis: Abortion will delay the redemption. Agre22 ( talk) 14:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)agre22
And this other Israeli site: [ JP] also writes the opinion from Chief Rabbinate of Israel about abortion. In the article, we can read:"There is nothing more important than encouraging births - according to the commentaries - and it is our role to raise the awareness on the subject of abortions," Rabbi Yehudah Deri, a member of the Chief Rabbinical Council, said during the committee hearing. "Women must be aware - many women don't know that the significance of abortion is murder. The information that we distributed was a rabbinic ruling that abortion is murder, the halacha sees a fetus as a living person." Agre22 ( talk) 14:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)agre22
Reverted. This para should be rewritten based on secondary sources per WP:MEDRS. Consider instead using PMID 19301572 and PMID 18321519, both of which are recent review articles. Note that they significantly distinguish odds based on medical vs surgical abortion and based on how early the abortion was. User:LeadSongDog come howl 16:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I was reading this article and felt that the major editors were doing a good job of explaining what abortion was while striving to keep NPOV. Then I stumbled across this line under the History section, "During the Middle Ages, abortion was tolerated because there were no laws against it.[65]" I didn't think this looked very NPOV, and looking up the reference doesn't help it either. I don't think the section would suffer if this line were removed entirely. Akuvar ( talk) 02:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, this sentence (under the History section as well) is confusing out of context. "Abortion in the 19th century continued, despite bans in both the United Kingdom and the United States, as the disguised, but nonetheless open, advertisement of services in the Victorian era suggests.[69]" If you follow the reference link, you understand what they are trying to say, but this sentence is worded poorly (and the UK isn't even mentioned in the reference link)! I would like to see the sentence replaced with a better paraphrase of the referenced article, such as, "In the US, abortions prior to "quickening" were allowed until the 19th century when laws became more and more restrictive. It wasn't until the 20th century that many factors caused more and more states to allow abortions." Akuvar ( talk) 02:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend a very small change in the first paragraph:
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death.[1] An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species. In the context of human pregnancies, an abortion induced to preserve the health of the gravida (pregnant female) is termed a therapeutic abortion, while an abortion induced for any other reason is termed an elective abortion. The term abortion most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed miscarriages.
It seems to me that the first two sentences refer to abortion in mammals, including humans. The rest of the lead section and most of the article applies only to human abortion. (It's my understanding that abortion, as a term, can apply only to mammals. Can you abort a tadpole?)
I want to suggest two small changes. First, introduce a paragraph break between the secord and third sentences. Second, move the wiki-link to the first occurrence of human pregnancies. Like this:
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death.[1] An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species.
In the context of human pregnancies, an abortion induced to preserve the health of the gravida (pregnant female) is termed a therapeutic abortion, while an abortion induced for any other reason is termed an elective abortion. The term abortion most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed miscarriages.
The first occurrence of the wikilinked pregnancy accesses the "Pregnancy (mammals)" article while the wikilinked "human pregnancies", now in the second paragraph, links to "Pregnancy", which deals with and is a redirect of "Human pregnancy". (The invisible comment under this text would have to be altered slightly as well; from <!--Annotation: This paragraph...--> to <!--Annotation: These two paragraphs...-->.)
Of course, another solution would be to split the article into "Abortion in humans" and "Abortion in mammals [or animals]" (including humans), with hatnotes pointing to the other one. Or maybe a series of hatnotes referring to Abortion debate, Abortion law and possibly Abortion in the United States and even Sex-selective abortion and female infanticide so that you can concentrate of the medical and surgical aspects rather than the legal and social facets.
But my proposal right now is for the simple change to the first paragraph detailed above. What say you? -- RoyGoldsmith ( talk) 19:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
In other words, your proposed solution, to limit elective and therapeutic abortion to humans is self-reflectively incorrect. However, acknowledgment of abortion in "human and other species" is self-reflectively correct.
173.30.9.30 ( talk) 19:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I have come back to this article after a year, and find it is MUCH improved. I might quibble about an emphasis here or an emphasis there, but this is much clearer and much more balanced --- and factual ---than it was. Congratulations to all those who were involved. 216.239.82.80 ( talk) 05:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Should the section with the header containing the words "female infanticide" be changed to female foeticide, for clarification? (ie. pre-birth not post-birth) —Preceding unsigned comment added by InternetGoomba ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
This edit was reverted under claims of "The cited article really doesn't say that at all." but the information is mentioned in the top of the reference.-- Nutriveg ( talk) 14:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
“ | But Norman Wells, from the Family Education Trust, which researches the reasons behind family breakdown, said that the high abortion rates were an “inevitable consequence of a society that has made an idol of sexual pleasure”. He added: "It is not ignorance of contraception that leads to alarming rates of teenage abortions. "The contraceptive culture has made girls feel they have a right to have babies to order and to do away with any that would interfere with their chosen lifestyle." | ” |
I'm confused as to why the section on "mental health" risks is so much longer than the section on general health risks. It is unanimously agreed by reputable expert bodies that abortion does not cause mental health problems. I think we could say this is in a sentence or two, or a paragraph at most. Right now, our section on health risks gives substantial undue weight to this issue, well in excess of that given by independent, reliable sources. Is there any interest in trimming this section down to a more proportionate representation of available information? MastCell Talk 17:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss this further. How specifically does a peer reviewed journal like Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health not meet WP:MEDRS, feel free to quote the specific portion of the guideline. Many places we are even clearly attributing the publisher, which we don't do with many other sources, which I think help qualifies the source. I think deleting sources, without replacing them with a substitute source is a form of disruption. Is this content inaccurate at all? Is it simply guilt by association, or do we have bad content in the article? I'd like to discuss the specifics of these edits, and work together to improve the article, and find suitable replacement sources, if that needs to happen, or argue that our current content and sourcing is accurate and within policy. - Andrew c [talk] 19:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Nutriveg has been removing citations to publications from the Guttmacher Institute on the grounds that they are not MEDRS compliant. I have questioned this on their user Talk (composite diff: [16]), since I feel this is a user conduct issue, but they asked that it be discussed here. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 19:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Generally speaking, I'm not for removing Guttmacher sources in the footnotes. However, I do think it would be appropriate in each one of those footnotes to append a very brief statement like "This organization is a pro-choice group" or (if being pro-choice is not part of their primary mission) "This organization takes a pro-choice position." Same for pro-choice individuals, and same for pro-life organizations and individuals, in this article. The readers can then make of it what they will. A disclaimer was previously discussed at this talk page here. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
It is completely inappropriate to add our editorial opinion about a perceived bias in sources, because that is our opinion, and nothing more. We only report what reliable sources say. If sources conflict, we simply present both viewpoints in a neutral way with a weight according to their prevalence – that's what WP:NPOV requires. It is a serious mistake to try to exclude a reliable source because it is a minority viewpoint; it is an equally serious mistake to attempt to characterise the POV of a source according to our own view. If a reader wants to learn about the POV of a particular institution, then the Wikipedia article on that institution is the place for that (and such information will also be cited to reliable sources which describe that POV). -- RexxS ( talk) 00:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The info about the risk of childbirth was in a parenthetical that was not apparent on a first read, so I fixed it.
Regarding the assertion that contraindications do not involve health risks, I disagree. If a person with contraindications for medical abortion gets a medical abortion then the risk is abnormally great, just like if a person gets an abortion in an unsafe operating room the risk is abnormally great (or gets an abortion where they are illegal). Also, I have not suggested hedging any more than Grimes has.
Regarding the idea that I would take the lead on writing a section that addresses alleged indicia of humanity that cause some women to not get abortions, I would need some kind of assurances that doing so would not inspire accusations of POV pushing. That's why I would prefer if someone else would get started on it. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The Associated Press and Reuters encourage journalists to use the terms "abortion rights" and "anti-abortion", which they see as neutral. [1]
The above is from the article Pro-choice. I'd like to see this article (Abortion) use the more neutral terms oftener, and reduce the use of the pro- terminology, which so obviously is political framing. ("Pro-choice" implies that the alternative viewpoint is "anti-choice", while "pro-life" implies that the alternative viewpoint is "pro-death" or "anti-life").
I've met Europeans who laugh at the pro- terminology. Reducing the use of it will make the article more global.
I'll make a couple such changes. -- Hordaland ( talk) 22:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Makes not much difference to me. Generally, I don't like stupid euphemisms, and vague modifiers, so there's something to be said for using the word "abortion" to describe people who take a position about it. On the other hand, self-identification is important too. Anyway, you're removing a lot of wikilinks. Maybe you could use a piped link: anti-abortion, pro-abortion. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
(with suitable refs) LeadSongDog come howl! 16:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Supporters and opponents of a right of access to lawful abortion are groups that respectively have characterized their positions as "pro-choice" and "pro-life". These groups strongly correlate to - but are significantly different from - the groups that support or oppose a right of lawful access to effective contraception.
Does anyone know if the terms pro-choice and pro-life are very common in English-speaking countries other than the USA? I know that American groups self-identify with these terms, but I wonder if they are immediately understandable for all others? I suspect not. Hordaland ( talk) 04:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
We could avoid this whole debacle by just sticking to pro-choice/pro-life. - Schrandit ( talk) 06:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Before everybody spends too much time debating what we think about terminology, we should first acknowledge the two elephants in this particular room. The section where these terms are used principally is Abortion debate. It claims (using the {{ main}} template) to be a summary of the articles Abortion debate, Pro-choice and Pro-life. If that template is to remain, then the section needs to accurately reflect those. At present, I think it is rather short of that goal. Secondly, and more importantly, the section has four paragraphs and one source. If the text had been written with reference to reliable sources, then no-one would be in any doubt about what terminology the preponderance of sources use. My suggestion is to go back to the sources. The three articles to be summarised have plenty of sources – some of them even reliable sources. Why not use the experience of the long-term editors of this article to set out here the reliable sources that relate to the Abortion debate section? Then you can agree the sources to use and the text for the section. It needs to be done anyway, and a by-product would be it would settle the debate about what terms to use. -- RexxS ( talk) 14:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
RexxS probably has the best idea, you know, following sources. Schrandit's last edit is disruptive because people here specifically objected to "pro-abortion", yet Schrandit re-instated it. Seriously, does consensus and working with other editors not mean a thing? Hordaland and SheffieldSteel strongly objected to "pro-abortion". So why on earth put in the article, despite (or in the face of) this ongoing discussion. Perhaps it's best to restore the longstanding version pro-life and pro-choice, as there hasn't been consensus to change anything yet. Someone made a bold edit, we tried to fiddle with it, yet haven't come to a compromise we can all agree with yet. I objected to "pro-abortion availability" because it is awkwardly phrased, and gets very low google hits, so it's a self-coined, perhaps neologism, which we should avoid. I instead restored the phrasing that the AP used, and is cited above in the first post, as it seems like more people on this talk page were into that then using the terms of self-identity (my preference). I mean, I'm trying to work with y'all, and I'm down for a compromise, but lets NOT use terms which multiple editors object to, OK? Can we agree on that at least? And then perhaps restore the old version while we work this out further? - Andrew c [talk] 20:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | → | Archive 40 |
If for some reason we can't manage to stop wasting our time on comparatively petty debates, we're never going to improve this article. So please, take these suggestions in the spirit they are offered: I just want to get something productive done on this article.-- Tznkai ( talk) 15:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
So...the image of a miscarriage has been the lead photograph for several months now, but for some reason the image of an induced abortion has not been added. Perhaps to have no images is fine, but how is it being neutral to show a natural abortion but not an induced one (which after all is what we all mean by "abortion.")
Also, the proposed induced abortion image (performed in a hysterectomy, right?) is not a typical induced abortion, but the miscarriage is. So to be neutral, should we not have an image of a typical induced abortion? EditorDM ( talk) 04:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I submitted this just about the time it was being archived and it's now on neither the live page nor the archive. Yes, it was about images; but it points to some useful sources as well so here it is again.... -- Monado ( talk) 21:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't want to stir things up, but I did find an image that has both a little grey "sculpture" of an embryo and a photo close-up of its face. I don't think it has shock value. It also has a size scale beside the embryo/fetus. You can see it at Endowment for Human Development: Face of the 8-week embryo. The site sounds non-neutral to me but I like the image and they might be willing to let us use it.
Re "We're showing an embryo but not a fetus": this gestational age is absolutely typical of surgical abortions; more than 50% are done at 9.5 weeks and under. For images of later abortions, just refer people to Lars Nilsson's book. (I have heard from doctors that the proportions of some of those dismembered fetuses are wrong and they think the feti(?) are fakes.)
Re "Show an ultrasound of a birth defect and then an aborted fetus": I feel that a club foot is the most minor defect you could find and would be unlikely to trigger an abortion. It does not even rate a mention on the CDC list of birth defects. Remember that abortion grows progressively more dangerous for the gravida as pregnancy advances, thus the reluctance of doctors to do later abortions, even considering only the life of the woman. The cases that I have read about have been anencephaly (1/4000 in U.S.) ( anencephaly and ultrasound) There's a non-gruesome image here, and as it's a government agency the image might be available: CDC on anencephaly. The commonest birth defect in the U.S. is spina bifida (1/1000), so that would interest the most people. Here is the CDC page for spina bifida. The severity of this defect varies greatly.
That being said, it's my impression that the commonest reason for a later abortion is that the woman needs cancer treatment ASAP and can't have it while pregnant. —Monado, 2009 June 15 20:20
how about adding diffrent options to the one that dont want to keep the baby, like livig them in a hospital and other resources they can have? Does anyone have any information about that?-- TeresaHdez ( talk) 20:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I've replaced "caustic" with " hypertonic." Caustic means strongly basic, but urea is a neutral molecule, neither acid nor base (see Wiki article on urea). Traditionally, "caustic" refers to sodium hydroxide, or lye. "Hypertonic" is the more accurate term, which means that the concentration of whatever molecule we're discussing is higher than it is in human blood. (Isotonic means the same concentration; hypotonic means lower concentration.)
Another good reason for using "hypertonic" is that it applies to saline solution, i.e. salt. Urea appears to be an organic salt since its chief virtue is that it dissolves readily in water. I think the point is to inject a strong saline solution.
The sentence about "Caesarean" abortions implied that it's considered major surgery, and therefore general anaesthetic is given. I removed the latter clause.
In fact, it's not what's being done to the body that defines major: if you get general anaesthetic, it is major surgery. If doctors can change the procedure so that they can avoid giving G.A., they will: general anaesthesia itself carries a death risk of about 1 in 50,000, so it used to contribute substantially to the risk of early abortions, which are now down to about 1 in 200,000. Monado ( talk) 19:11, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the use of "euphemism" to describe what, in other contexts, I'd call a shorthand way of referring to a longer phrase. (see How 'vanilla' became shorthand for 'bland' by Amanda Fortini). "Euphemism" implies covering up ugliness, which I think violates the Neutral Point of View. This is lumping two similar techniques together. So, for now, I'm changing it. If that is too idiomatic, would "short for" do? — Monado ( talk) 20:38, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
How bout this for an euphemism..."forced pregnancy" ? Why isn't it called what it is? Any law against abortion is a law for forced pregnancy. Not only that but forced child birth. I would like to see these two euphemisms added to the abortion debate. hmmm what is the opposite of a euphemism then? Pnoric ( talk) 05:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)pnoric
can someone add information to the abortion law section for me, one part states "In the United Kingdom, as in some other countries, two doctors must first certify that an abortion is medically or socially necessary before it can be performed." this appears as though it applies to the whole of the UK but in Northern Ireland abortion is illegal, you can't travel to get one nor can you supply information on where/how to get one. RyanM651 ( talk) 02:50, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
The MOS frowns on slashes. Yet, we have a slash in the opening sentence: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus/ embryo, resulting in or caused by its death." It's understandable that people would want to avoid having yet another "or" in this sentence, but I think a slight rephrase could easily remove the slash, while also giving the reader a slight clue about the difference between the linked terms (so the reader will know which one to click on).
So, how about this: "An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of an embryo (instead a fetus later in pregnancy) resulting in or caused by its death." Ferrylodge ( talk) 16:59, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Someone objected to the use of a reference from Nicaragua on the grounds that it was biased and Nicaragua-specific. The next point is Bangladesh-specific--so what? the article reports, or should report, facts from around the world.
A few nations ban abortion entirely: Chile, El Salvador, Ireland, Malta, and Nicaragua, with consequent rises in maternal death directly and indirectly due to pregnancy. [1]
- ^ "European delegation visits Nicaragua to examine effects of abortion ban (November 26, 2007)". Ipas. Retrieved 2009-06-15.
Nicaragua was used because it is a location in which laws against abortion were changed on a specific date, with a specific objectively measurable result in public health: at least 82 deaths of women of childbearing age in the months immediately following. The source may be "biased," I don't know; but the facts are not in dispute. The bias may only be that the organization cared to report the results of the law's passage and of the delegation's findings.
If death isn't a consequence worth reporting, what is a relevant consequence? A debunked rumor that abortion causes breast cancer? -- Monado ( talk) 15:55, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm well aware of the guiding principles; NOR and MEDRS do not apply to the content, therefore your posting them was unhelpful; your childish "I'll comment if I want" ignores my objection to your post was that it was inapplicable, and therefore useless in this situation. Bias is a more tenable objection. As most of the content in this article is US centric, that the suggested content is Nicaragua based is an argument for inclusion, not exclusion, in order to promote a less biased worldview. I support inclusion of the material, and invite participation in a discussion regarding whether the source is biased; how biased it might be; and how to phrase the content for accuracy. KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 17:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I'm sorry, are you calling the World Health Organization biased? KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 12:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Have any pro-life/anti-abortion activists ever expressed the view that certain kinds of abortion could be a form of honor killing ? In many kinds of ways, it brings shame to a woman or girl who is forced to carry out her pregnancy, and in late-term cases, many people would agree that terminating a fairly developed fetus does constitute a killing per se. [1] Other possible cases of honor killing would be the unlawful murdering of abortion providers such as George Tiller for motives of honor. [2] There is also a strange opposite phenomenon of providing free abortions in honor of slain abortionists. [3] ADM ( talk) 10:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
This topic should receive little or no space since it is a busted myth. The papers lovingly referred to in the footnotes are all 25 - 30 years old. It was a hypothesis that didn't work out. Much larger sample sizes and reviews failed to find any link between abortion and breast cancer. Any summary should point that out. If I recall correctly, if there was any association it was with being pregnant for too long and not breastfeeding. Monado ( talk) 02:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The main article at Abortion-breast cancer hypothesis makes it fairly clear its bunk, but I agree the synopsis here needs reworking for clarity. The verbiage we now have does not make it clear this has been thoroughly dismissed by the medical community (ie; all people in the medical field not currently getting paid to testify for lawsuits.) KillerChihuahua ?!? Advice 11:35, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
You may have noticed some conflicting edits in abortion-related articles regarding what to call women who get pregnant. There's an open discussion here that could probably benefit from more eyes. 69.121.221.174 ( talk) 04:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
The long-standing objective definition was collectively and painstakingly developed by dozens of editors (with diverse viewpoints, backgrounds, and knowledge) over a period of months; in the end, a formulation that includes reference to the death of the fetus was found to be necessary in order to be scientifically and medically accurate and objective.
Lacking this scientifically and medically necessary refence to fetal death, the recently edited version ("termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo" )is inaccurate and subjective (and thus highly un-wikipedia).
While countless hours were spent debating many substantive concerns on all angles of this specific "death of the fetus" topic, one common pregnancy situation exemplifies that there is no abortion unless expulsion or removal of the fetus causes or was caused by fetal death.
When a doctor removes a healthy baby from the mother's womb during a C-section and hands it to the father, there has been a "termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo", but no abortion. This and other examples are unassailable reasons that any accurate definition must cover fetal demise (which in plain English is death of the fetus or fetal death)
The fact that all pregnancies terminate renders the euphemism "termination of pregnancy" inadequate to describe the fetal death that is always part of abortion; we can call to mind any pregnancy that ends in a live birth, and also recall that artificially induced labor is one type of induced termination of pregnancy.
When a woman carrying twins experiences the "removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus" via abortion (selective reduction or miscarriage) of 1 of the fetuses at week 12, and 19 weeks later she delivers the other healthy twin; the continued development (aka life) of the first fetal twin was aborted at week 12, but there was certainly no "termination of pregnancy" until the healthy second twin was born at week 31.
71.52.188.76 ( talk) 15:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
There has been bit of back and forth on the talk page for Indirect abortion over whether to use the term "mother" or "pregnant woman" and we're trying to work something out but haven’t really arrived at a conclusion yet and could use more opinions. Please stop by if you've got time. - Schrandit ( talk) 15:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Certain pro-life activists have highlighted the phenomenon of abortion addictions in certain women as evidence that abortion is very often not a choice, but rather that it is much closer to the status of a social pathology. It might a good thing if we could a least have a stub on this matter. [5] ADM ( talk) 08:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
New Law in Spain 92.252.116.53 ( talk) 22:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Feel free to add more, so it can all be eventually incorporated to the article.
About 19% of teens have had sex and became pregnant each year, and from that 19% about 78% of those were unplanned. Only 5% of women who need contraception are not using a method and yet they are accountable for the 47% of the 3 Million unwanted pregnancies each year in the United States. Without contraception services federal, state and Medicaid expenditures would increase by $1.2 Billion a year. Lelek310 ( talk) 19:05, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
I am one of the people who has made an effort to ensure WP:NPOV by using the term "pregnant woman" when referring to women who are pregnant and may or may not ever become mothers. While there does appear to be a consensus for this, there is also discussion in various venues. Rather than demanding that people bounce around article and editor talk pages to follow the thread of conversation, I'd like to centralize the discussion here, so that we don't have to repeat ourselves.
Briefly, my argument is that "mother" is neither accurate nor neutral, while "pregnant woman" is demonstrably both. As such, WP:NPOV requires us to avoid the former consistently. I recognize that this restriction of neutrality applies to Wikipedia, not to our sources, so we should expect to see "mother" pop up in some direct quotes, but that's not an argument for using it ourselves.
I welcome reasoned discussion regarding this topic, but have little interest in discussing my own personal views, as they are immaterial. CarolineWH ( talk) 16:59, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me, the word "mother" is not currently being used in this article to refer to pregnant women. While perhaps topical, your discussion does not relate to the content of this article. Perhaps a MoS page or a WikiProject page may be a more appropriate venue (and perhaps a RfC to boot, if either one of you is proposing some site wide style guide). I'm not trying to shut down discussion, per se, but I want to direct you to perhaps more appropriate venues. Thanks. - Andrew c [talk] 00:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
I'll admit to not reading this in its entirety, but my remaining preference on terminology is in the following order: gravida, woman, female, mother.--
Tznkai (
talk)
19:44, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
While we were discussing the issue, two of the participants decided jump the gun and start changing articles to ensure that their preferred version was in place. CarolineWH ( talk) 16:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
As a courtesy, I'd like to mention that I've made some changes to two forks of this article: pro-choice and pro-life. I'm acknowledging this here so that you can offer appropriate feedback. CarolineWH ( talk) 05:21, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to bring up this heated debate once again, But shouldn't we euphemize the word "Death" in the first paragraph to match the article on Miscarriage? This would bring us closer to standardization and a non bias.
BFPIERCE ( talk) 04:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Abortion is now legal in Spain on request, up to 14th week of pregnancy. Please update the map. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.113.21.164 ( talk) 22:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Both houses in Spain now allow abortion on request.
This Israeli site: [ Rabbis] tells that Rabbis: Abortion will delay the redemption. Agre22 ( talk) 14:34, 30 December 2009 (UTC)agre22
And this other Israeli site: [ JP] also writes the opinion from Chief Rabbinate of Israel about abortion. In the article, we can read:"There is nothing more important than encouraging births - according to the commentaries - and it is our role to raise the awareness on the subject of abortions," Rabbi Yehudah Deri, a member of the Chief Rabbinical Council, said during the committee hearing. "Women must be aware - many women don't know that the significance of abortion is murder. The information that we distributed was a rabbinic ruling that abortion is murder, the halacha sees a fetus as a living person." Agre22 ( talk) 14:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)agre22
Reverted. This para should be rewritten based on secondary sources per WP:MEDRS. Consider instead using PMID 19301572 and PMID 18321519, both of which are recent review articles. Note that they significantly distinguish odds based on medical vs surgical abortion and based on how early the abortion was. User:LeadSongDog come howl 16:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
I was reading this article and felt that the major editors were doing a good job of explaining what abortion was while striving to keep NPOV. Then I stumbled across this line under the History section, "During the Middle Ages, abortion was tolerated because there were no laws against it.[65]" I didn't think this looked very NPOV, and looking up the reference doesn't help it either. I don't think the section would suffer if this line were removed entirely. Akuvar ( talk) 02:05, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
Also, this sentence (under the History section as well) is confusing out of context. "Abortion in the 19th century continued, despite bans in both the United Kingdom and the United States, as the disguised, but nonetheless open, advertisement of services in the Victorian era suggests.[69]" If you follow the reference link, you understand what they are trying to say, but this sentence is worded poorly (and the UK isn't even mentioned in the reference link)! I would like to see the sentence replaced with a better paraphrase of the referenced article, such as, "In the US, abortions prior to "quickening" were allowed until the 19th century when laws became more and more restrictive. It wasn't until the 20th century that many factors caused more and more states to allow abortions." Akuvar ( talk) 02:19, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to recommend a very small change in the first paragraph:
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death.[1] An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species. In the context of human pregnancies, an abortion induced to preserve the health of the gravida (pregnant female) is termed a therapeutic abortion, while an abortion induced for any other reason is termed an elective abortion. The term abortion most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed miscarriages.
It seems to me that the first two sentences refer to abortion in mammals, including humans. The rest of the lead section and most of the article applies only to human abortion. (It's my understanding that abortion, as a term, can apply only to mammals. Can you abort a tadpole?)
I want to suggest two small changes. First, introduce a paragraph break between the secord and third sentences. Second, move the wiki-link to the first occurrence of human pregnancies. Like this:
Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death.[1] An abortion can occur spontaneously due to complications during pregnancy or can be induced, in humans and other species.
In the context of human pregnancies, an abortion induced to preserve the health of the gravida (pregnant female) is termed a therapeutic abortion, while an abortion induced for any other reason is termed an elective abortion. The term abortion most commonly refers to the induced abortion of a human pregnancy, while spontaneous abortions are usually termed miscarriages.
The first occurrence of the wikilinked pregnancy accesses the "Pregnancy (mammals)" article while the wikilinked "human pregnancies", now in the second paragraph, links to "Pregnancy", which deals with and is a redirect of "Human pregnancy". (The invisible comment under this text would have to be altered slightly as well; from <!--Annotation: This paragraph...--> to <!--Annotation: These two paragraphs...-->.)
Of course, another solution would be to split the article into "Abortion in humans" and "Abortion in mammals [or animals]" (including humans), with hatnotes pointing to the other one. Or maybe a series of hatnotes referring to Abortion debate, Abortion law and possibly Abortion in the United States and even Sex-selective abortion and female infanticide so that you can concentrate of the medical and surgical aspects rather than the legal and social facets.
But my proposal right now is for the simple change to the first paragraph detailed above. What say you? -- RoyGoldsmith ( talk) 19:32, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
In other words, your proposed solution, to limit elective and therapeutic abortion to humans is self-reflectively incorrect. However, acknowledgment of abortion in "human and other species" is self-reflectively correct.
173.30.9.30 ( talk) 19:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I have come back to this article after a year, and find it is MUCH improved. I might quibble about an emphasis here or an emphasis there, but this is much clearer and much more balanced --- and factual ---than it was. Congratulations to all those who were involved. 216.239.82.80 ( talk) 05:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
Should the section with the header containing the words "female infanticide" be changed to female foeticide, for clarification? (ie. pre-birth not post-birth) —Preceding unsigned comment added by InternetGoomba ( talk • contribs) 19:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
This edit was reverted under claims of "The cited article really doesn't say that at all." but the information is mentioned in the top of the reference.-- Nutriveg ( talk) 14:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
“ | But Norman Wells, from the Family Education Trust, which researches the reasons behind family breakdown, said that the high abortion rates were an “inevitable consequence of a society that has made an idol of sexual pleasure”. He added: "It is not ignorance of contraception that leads to alarming rates of teenage abortions. "The contraceptive culture has made girls feel they have a right to have babies to order and to do away with any that would interfere with their chosen lifestyle." | ” |
I'm confused as to why the section on "mental health" risks is so much longer than the section on general health risks. It is unanimously agreed by reputable expert bodies that abortion does not cause mental health problems. I think we could say this is in a sentence or two, or a paragraph at most. Right now, our section on health risks gives substantial undue weight to this issue, well in excess of that given by independent, reliable sources. Is there any interest in trimming this section down to a more proportionate representation of available information? MastCell Talk 17:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to discuss this further. How specifically does a peer reviewed journal like Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health not meet WP:MEDRS, feel free to quote the specific portion of the guideline. Many places we are even clearly attributing the publisher, which we don't do with many other sources, which I think help qualifies the source. I think deleting sources, without replacing them with a substitute source is a form of disruption. Is this content inaccurate at all? Is it simply guilt by association, or do we have bad content in the article? I'd like to discuss the specifics of these edits, and work together to improve the article, and find suitable replacement sources, if that needs to happen, or argue that our current content and sourcing is accurate and within policy. - Andrew c [talk] 19:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Nutriveg has been removing citations to publications from the Guttmacher Institute on the grounds that they are not MEDRS compliant. I have questioned this on their user Talk (composite diff: [16]), since I feel this is a user conduct issue, but they asked that it be discussed here. SHEFFIELDSTEEL TALK 19:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Generally speaking, I'm not for removing Guttmacher sources in the footnotes. However, I do think it would be appropriate in each one of those footnotes to append a very brief statement like "This organization is a pro-choice group" or (if being pro-choice is not part of their primary mission) "This organization takes a pro-choice position." Same for pro-choice individuals, and same for pro-life organizations and individuals, in this article. The readers can then make of it what they will. A disclaimer was previously discussed at this talk page here. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:43, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
It is completely inappropriate to add our editorial opinion about a perceived bias in sources, because that is our opinion, and nothing more. We only report what reliable sources say. If sources conflict, we simply present both viewpoints in a neutral way with a weight according to their prevalence – that's what WP:NPOV requires. It is a serious mistake to try to exclude a reliable source because it is a minority viewpoint; it is an equally serious mistake to attempt to characterise the POV of a source according to our own view. If a reader wants to learn about the POV of a particular institution, then the Wikipedia article on that institution is the place for that (and such information will also be cited to reliable sources which describe that POV). -- RexxS ( talk) 00:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The info about the risk of childbirth was in a parenthetical that was not apparent on a first read, so I fixed it.
Regarding the assertion that contraindications do not involve health risks, I disagree. If a person with contraindications for medical abortion gets a medical abortion then the risk is abnormally great, just like if a person gets an abortion in an unsafe operating room the risk is abnormally great (or gets an abortion where they are illegal). Also, I have not suggested hedging any more than Grimes has.
Regarding the idea that I would take the lead on writing a section that addresses alleged indicia of humanity that cause some women to not get abortions, I would need some kind of assurances that doing so would not inspire accusations of POV pushing. That's why I would prefer if someone else would get started on it. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 05:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
The Associated Press and Reuters encourage journalists to use the terms "abortion rights" and "anti-abortion", which they see as neutral. [1]
The above is from the article Pro-choice. I'd like to see this article (Abortion) use the more neutral terms oftener, and reduce the use of the pro- terminology, which so obviously is political framing. ("Pro-choice" implies that the alternative viewpoint is "anti-choice", while "pro-life" implies that the alternative viewpoint is "pro-death" or "anti-life").
I've met Europeans who laugh at the pro- terminology. Reducing the use of it will make the article more global.
I'll make a couple such changes. -- Hordaland ( talk) 22:16, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
Makes not much difference to me. Generally, I don't like stupid euphemisms, and vague modifiers, so there's something to be said for using the word "abortion" to describe people who take a position about it. On the other hand, self-identification is important too. Anyway, you're removing a lot of wikilinks. Maybe you could use a piped link: anti-abortion, pro-abortion. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:42, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
(with suitable refs) LeadSongDog come howl! 16:46, 29 May 2010 (UTC)Supporters and opponents of a right of access to lawful abortion are groups that respectively have characterized their positions as "pro-choice" and "pro-life". These groups strongly correlate to - but are significantly different from - the groups that support or oppose a right of lawful access to effective contraception.
Does anyone know if the terms pro-choice and pro-life are very common in English-speaking countries other than the USA? I know that American groups self-identify with these terms, but I wonder if they are immediately understandable for all others? I suspect not. Hordaland ( talk) 04:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
We could avoid this whole debacle by just sticking to pro-choice/pro-life. - Schrandit ( talk) 06:06, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
Before everybody spends too much time debating what we think about terminology, we should first acknowledge the two elephants in this particular room. The section where these terms are used principally is Abortion debate. It claims (using the {{ main}} template) to be a summary of the articles Abortion debate, Pro-choice and Pro-life. If that template is to remain, then the section needs to accurately reflect those. At present, I think it is rather short of that goal. Secondly, and more importantly, the section has four paragraphs and one source. If the text had been written with reference to reliable sources, then no-one would be in any doubt about what terminology the preponderance of sources use. My suggestion is to go back to the sources. The three articles to be summarised have plenty of sources – some of them even reliable sources. Why not use the experience of the long-term editors of this article to set out here the reliable sources that relate to the Abortion debate section? Then you can agree the sources to use and the text for the section. It needs to be done anyway, and a by-product would be it would settle the debate about what terms to use. -- RexxS ( talk) 14:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
RexxS probably has the best idea, you know, following sources. Schrandit's last edit is disruptive because people here specifically objected to "pro-abortion", yet Schrandit re-instated it. Seriously, does consensus and working with other editors not mean a thing? Hordaland and SheffieldSteel strongly objected to "pro-abortion". So why on earth put in the article, despite (or in the face of) this ongoing discussion. Perhaps it's best to restore the longstanding version pro-life and pro-choice, as there hasn't been consensus to change anything yet. Someone made a bold edit, we tried to fiddle with it, yet haven't come to a compromise we can all agree with yet. I objected to "pro-abortion availability" because it is awkwardly phrased, and gets very low google hits, so it's a self-coined, perhaps neologism, which we should avoid. I instead restored the phrasing that the AP used, and is cited above in the first post, as it seems like more people on this talk page were into that then using the terms of self-identity (my preference). I mean, I'm trying to work with y'all, and I'm down for a compromise, but lets NOT use terms which multiple editors object to, OK? Can we agree on that at least? And then perhaps restore the old version while we work this out further? - Andrew c [talk] 20:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)