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![]() | On 22 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Abkhaz–Georgian conflict to Abkhazia conflict. The result of the discussion was moved. |
What's a "moral loss," as referred to in the intro? Was that supposed to say "morale loss," or was some other meaning intended? Just wondering, as it's currently unclear. -- Parakkum 22:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a small problem with the article. At the end of the second paragraph of the subtitle called 'History of the Conflict', there is a word 'boevysk'. I cannot find any information about this word. I think there can be some transliteration problem while transliterating it from Russian or Georgian or Abkhaz language to Latin alphabet. Also if there is an information about this word in the article, it would be better. If someone helps me, I will be happy. I'm also interesting in Caucasian politics and Georgia specifically. I hope in near future I will make some contributions to the articles related with Georgia. Thanks for those who involved in the creation of this article. [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 11:50 UTC +2
Hi. "boyevik" is a Russian word for "militant" or "fighter" sometimes used in modern English to denote the members of rebel or unlawful military formations. -- Kober 09:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Kober [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 22:05 UTC +2
The article as it now is presents the war and all the major events related in chronological order. However this doesn't promote the understanding of the causes of the conflict and doesn't give any clue for the stance of the parties and the role of foreign mediators. I believe that new sections should be created under the titles "Conflict Mediation", and a short "Profile of the parties" as well as a description of the "Current 2006 situation" regarding the conflict settlement. Donnerstag 22:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
In order to make it more expanatory, I have tried to summarize ideas expressed from some international scholars here:
The Abkhaz Side For the Abkhaz side collective memories of suppression from Georgian during the Soviet rule, cooperation of Georgian elements with Russian oppressions in 19th century and more importantly the element of fear that has survived after the Stalinist policies of Georgianization justify a tendency for demands of full independence.
The maximal—and the only expressed—claim of the Abkhaz people is secession or full independence. The solution they propose is that of two sovereign states. The status of the relations with Georgia, are not clear in their proposals, but the minimum requirement of any solution is the guarantee of independence (Cornell, 2002). Back in 1991, in one of the last attempts for power sharing before the armed clashes begun, a new electoral law on the allocation of seats in the Abkhaz parliament was accepted by Abkhaz leaders and Gamsakhurdia, but soon failed. The attempt failed then because both sides never abandoned the aspiration of monopoly of control over the territory of Abkhazia. Georgians justified their claims as that of the democratic majority; Abkhazians used the argument of autochthony and the need to correct the historical injustice, to justify their claims. Gamsakhurdia never truly believed in the arrangement but accepted it in order to close an open front and concentrate his efforts on the conflict with South Ossetia. The Abkhaz authorities accepted it is a concession giving further rights to their ethnic group (Coppieters, 2001).
Both Abkhaz government and opposition oppose any reunification with Georgia under any circumstances. To them the only plausible solutions would be either full independence or at other times associate membership of the Russian Federation. Since October 1999 when they declared their independence they haven’t moved from that position. In unofficial discussions reported by Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe (2003) Abkhaz leaders expressed their preference for a model of distribution of competences based on the sovereignty of the units, something like the association of the Marshall Islands with the United States, that would provide Abkhazia with full international legal personality and the right to secession. In the discussions, “some Abkhaz expressed the opinion that democratization—not reunification with Georgia—was the first priority for Abkhazia. Such a reunification was viewed as rendering the task of democratization more difficult” (Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe, 2003). Some Abkhaz officials supported the idea that declaring independence was the last resort as the Abkhaz proposals before and after the war were met with a counterproductive stance by Georgia.
Footnotes
Please tell me your suggestions or corrections. Donnerstag 22:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the Abkhaz side juridically justified Abkhaz independance with mainly these two lines of thought:
- Soviet law actually granted entities such as Abhazia souvereignity upon Georgian declaration of independance. When Georgia did so, Abkhazia decided to stay inside the Soviet Union, as a full union republic, and when the SU was disbanded, Abkhazia automatically became independant.
- Georgian parliament declared that all treaties, laws and agreements made during Soviet rule were null and void. Abkhazia however was not subordinated to Georgia until 1931, it had previously been of the same status as Georgia. Thus Georgia's cancelling of all Soviet laws automatically left Abkhazia legally outside Georgia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 25 February 2006.
I've only got a link to that law, unfortunately not from a neutral site: http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/ussr_law.shtml —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 26 February 2006.
Donnerstag 22:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
His article said it was "crucial".
I guess it should be noted somewhere the Georgians were the majority ethnic group in Abkhazia. -- HanzoHattori 21:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
What is "not NPOV"? Wiki-linking words? Or maybe calling a paramilitary fighters by name, instead of " civilians"? (If so, do you mean civilians mentioned later among casaulties all meant a guys with grenades and machine guns?) Please explain. -- HanzoHattori 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, a militia would be possibly a better name - with paramilitaries reserved to, well, a paramilitary supporters of Shevardnadze (if that's what you meant, because I honestly have no idea - are you guarding your vision of this article like this from everyone?). -- HanzoHattori 22:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. WHAT "POV claims"? That civilian is "any person who is not a combatant"? That's what you mean? That the Georgian civilians in Abkhazia (Abkhaz and the Confederation forces launched a full-scale attack on Sokhumi resulting in large destruction and casualties among the civilians, twice) were in fact armed soldiers? In other words: are you insane? -- HanzoHattori 03:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The distinction of civilians is they are protected in the war because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS. They're not soldiers, paramilitaries, militiants, policemen, armed rebels, terrorists, even armed criminals, nothing, they are CIVILIANS, non-combatants in times of war. Guys in civilian clothes who don't fight. I can't be more clear on this. I don't know, maybe in Georgia "civilian" means something else, like a "light machinegun crew member doubling as a grenadier", but would you just stick to the international meaning? Also, what wrong is in changing "ethnic conflict" to " ethnic conflict" and such, I'd really like to know what's your problem. -- HanzoHattori 04:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
LOL. Dear "friends of Sosomk", the armed people on the photo are not captioned "civilians" anymore! Changes this ASAP! -- HanzoHattori 14:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
There must be a short outline of both Abkhaz and Georgian profiles. The previous one was full of POVs. Please make your suggestions before i draft the outline. Thanks Ldingley 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Ghirlandajo Do not vandalize the article due to unfound claims of “nationalist POV.” If you believe so, please use this talk page and present your claims in civilized manner with reliable sources (primary source and secondary source), references, citations or historic documents. Please review the bibliography of the article. Do not use Abkhazia.org as source or any material from the conflicting side. The article is under heavy re-work and most of the materials and info is taken from sources mentioned in Bibliography. The proper citations will be added soon. Do not disturb this process and instead of vandalizing, help out and co-operate. Due to the nature of you being Russian, you have yoru won POV which is unsuitable for Wikipedia NPOV policy. However, it is most important to work and co-operate with any Wiki user and it would be more constructive then vandalistic rv. Start gathering sources and materials and you may change anything you want according to fair NPOV stand. Im looking forward to work with you and co-operate in order to complete this article successfully. Ldingley 15:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Please review the Bibliography and sources:
If you are rewriting the article, please refrain from using biased language and clean up it whenever possible. Please also refrain from attacking other editors. `' mikka (t) 17:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
the claim that soviet government inflamed the conflict is not a piece of trivia. First, it must be more detailed. Second, it must be backed by examples and references. `' mikka (t) 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not exactly interested in this topic or familiar with it. (In fact, I am not interested in any politics) I am merely pointing you at some glaring problems seen in the article at the very first glance. `' mikka (t) 18:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
All sentences about executions and atrocities must be backed by references. You promised to provide references, I know. Please start from these. `' mikka (t) 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Ldingley 's citations are amazing! I am just wondering why do we have to cite every single sentence, when the Russian articles tell lies. mikka, I would advise to you that you go ahead and cite the articles about Russia. Sosomk 13:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The article now occurs biased because it says nothing about real roots of the conflict. I don't know anything, but frankly I don't believe that the main reason was pure separatism and Soviet manipulation. Usually all these stories are rooted in real or perceived discrimination of a minority. The article bypasses this issue completely. I am repeating: "real or perceived". `' mikka (t) 18:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"What nationalists?" Georgian ones, which demanded secession from USSR. Just like Abkhazian ones demandes secession from Gerogia. Now, how about a little NPOV here? `' mikka (t) 23:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Also please stop acting like a cry-baby. I am not sayin anything about your numerous accusations of me pushing Russian POV. How funny to read them after reading some Russian complaining to another: "Why this Mikka is a Russophobe? Is he a Pole or what?" `' mikka (t) 23:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd ask all users to maintain a sort of status quo here until we find a final way how to develop the article. Let's discuss even a single word before its inclusion in the text. Ldingley has got a plenty of resources and documents related to the conflict and I think he is the best authority here on this particular issue.
I'd like also to remind our Russian colleagues that this is a very sensitive area and it would be really great if they refrain from posting the comments that are offensive to Georgians.-- Kober 05:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
"A Russophobic LDingley aggressively pushes his POV in Georgian-Abkhaz conflict despite myself being exceptionally mild with my changes after ghirla asked me to keep an eye. Judging from his swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist, contrary to the photo in his user page."
Very wrong thing to write: "swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist " Also "Tengiz rather than Luis." Meaning, all georgians are hot tempered, ill behaved, and therefore damn Gruzin! This is definitely a national insults to Georgian users of Wikipedia. A typical discriminatory remark makes me assume that our common friend Mikahil is not that mild as he perceives. Now how do we at Wikipedia treat national Discrimination, personal attacks (please quote even one sentence where im being Russo phobic), personal insults (I'm turns out to be a Georgian nationalist sock) and violation of NPOV policy?
Ldingley 15:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate Mikka's and Irpen's efforts at bringing this page to normalcy. After a flood of Ldingley's edits, the page was ridiculously one-sided and read like an anti-Abkhazian slur by some very angry Georgian who is unable to change the situation. Such an article should be placed on Mr. Ssaskashvili's government site, but it's out of place in an encyclopaedia that professes to stick to neutrality. Pointing this out doesn't mean that you push "pro-Russian POV" and you should understand this, Kober. -- Ghirla -трёп- 19:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazs declared independence when there was a chaos in Georgia and basically thugs were controlling the country. The term anti-georgian discrimination is totally off the point. Georgian are not minority, they lived in Abkhazia for 4,000 years. Northern Caucasians are minorities there who somehow (of course with a big support of Russia) kicked out everybody except of Abkhazs and Russians. Thism however is a facism, so Georia is very democratic country where minorities have lots of rights. They also kicked out lots of Greeks and Jews from the region, so can totally call it Anti-Simetic and Anti-Greek facistic act. Another argument would be that if Georgians discriminate Northern Caucasians, why Gamsakhurdia supported Ichkeria? Obviously, it is a matter of politics and political ideology than the etnithity and ethnic ideology. Russian enjoyed watching Terrorists playing Soccer with the heads of dead Georgians. Sosomk 13:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Defening is just better grammar, their somehow imply that it was not Abkhaz. That is POV
Abkazia is recognized as a Region it is not recognized as an independent state
I have removed the following phrase Russia's aim was to create a conflict moment in order to justify its army in the soviet republic and to keep Georgia away from its Pro-EU and Pro-US political purpose to have closer relations with West not with East ( Russia)., since it looks like an ungrammatical POV rant, out of place in the article and having no sense in particular. abakharev 09:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear Alex, from where did you get this false information? "Abkhazian separatists supported Zviadists and Zviad Gamsakhurdia at that time recognized independence of Abkhazia " Can you please provide sources and references for such a claim? Also please try to gather all available sources from various documents and when adding something to the article, refer them in the Bibliography or Notes. Please consider to use both primary sources and secondary. I understand that this issue is very sensitive for Russians but trying to implement information which is far from reality is unacceptable for any user. Thanks a lot for your valuable contributions. Ldingley 19:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose you the following formulation: "Unrecognized Abkhaz authorities".-- Georgianis 07:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It's more WP:NPOV the title like this. Actually it's about the Russian-Georgian war in Abkhazia. In Georgia, Russian support for Abkhazian separatists and its manipulation of rebellious Georgian forces under former leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia brought President Eduard Shevardnadze to his knees and compelled him, in October, to join the CIS and, in early 1994, to sign a friendship treaty with Russia. The next wide-scaled bombings of Sukhumi by Russian military aircraft has happened on February 20-th, 1993. This coincides with the intensification of political fight for power between various parties in Tbilissi. The pretext of bombing was the next provocative cannonade by the forces of junta in direction of the military seismological laboratory of Russian troops in Eshera, near Sukhumi.-- Georgianis 07:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
"south Ossetia"
First bloody conflict between Georgians and Abkhazians, enflamed by Kremlin agents in soviet period (July 15th, 1989) soon was forgotten by both sides, until the bloody coup d'etat, inspired and organized by Moscow and it's emissary, Eduard Shevardnadze, happened in Georgia. -- Georgianis 07:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazian war was unleashed by Shevardnadze "in coordination with Kremlin", as he stated by national TV in August 1992. The aim of Russia was strengthening it's military control on Black Sea shore, depriving Georgia it's north-western territory, whereas regime of Shevardnadze was striving to establish his totalitarian rule in Abkhazia and punishing it's Georgian population, 90% of which supported President Gamsakhurdia. By that reason Sukhumi was bombed by Shevardnadze's aircraft.-- Georgianis 07:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
At the same time, taking into account increasing imperial tendencies in Russia and interests of well-known destructive forces, trying to increase their influence in the region, situation can be become more and more dangerous and harmful to the western interests also. Similar tendencies in other former Soviet republics (i.e. in Azerbaijan) shows this evidently.-- Georgianis 07:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The coast between Sochi (today in Russia) and Suchumi, the capital of Abkhasia, is full of sea-side resorts and beautifull long sand-strands - as well as datachas of former Soviet politicians and high military officers. Many of locally based Russian-generals disliked the idea of losing their possessions here, and this appears to have been one of main reasons for their support of Abkhasians in this conflict. This, in turn, is also the reason why the Abkhasian war against Georgia is sometimes called "The War of Datchas". Georgianis 07:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The war and the associated Caucasian terrorism in Russia resulted in growing intolerance and racist violence in Russia, directed in a great part against the people from Caucasus. Even while the Russian authorities are unlikely to label attacks on people with dark skin as racist, preferring calling this " hooliganism", a report in November 2005 found that murders officially classified as racist more than doubled in Russia between 2003 and 2004 from around 20 to at least 45.
A nationwide opinion poll in 2005 found that 61% of respondents approved of the "Russia for Russians" slogan, almost twice the 31% level recorded in 1998. [1] According to the 2006 poll by the Public Opinion Foundation, 12% of Russians see "positive ideas" in fascism; 24% think that people who hold fascist views do not constitute a danger to society. -- Georgianis 09:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Alex, please just don't blind revert. Thank you. -- Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph I proposed you above for discussion.
Please don't blind revert. -- Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
[moved to a subpage a few megabytes of text, pasted from an outside source] -- Irpen 20:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The above text is from the War and Secession: A Moral Analysis of the Georgian–Abkhaz Conflict
Coppieters, Bruno. You can buy online. --
Georgianis |
(t) 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I read it with the great interest and will read it again. However, you should learn to assume good faith. Your accusations of hidden motives over every action undermine your credibility. I explained the reason why this was moved at your talk page in a very detailed way. -- Irpen 21:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Kober: "I think the involvement of the third party is needed as I would hardly regard Russian users as a disinterested party in this particular issue." This has gone too far, and all thanks to some users who consider Western sources as Russophobic. I will contact User:Donnerstag, the original author of this article, also User:Khoikhoi and others to help out. Russian involvement seems conflicting due to political reality concerning Abkhazia and Russia. Therefore, this article will always suffer. I will contact other users for help. Thanks Kober. Ldingley 14:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW on September 14 (today) 1992, the war started in Abkhazia. Ldingley 14:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't support such a blind revert. My arguments are:
I will support only this formulation: Georgian residents of Sukhumi defending the city, 1993 It's about their country, their city.
Georgianis |
(t) 20:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not trying to imply anything about Sukhumi's being Georgian or not. It was a part of the Georgian republic, that's for sure. At the same time it was populated by many ethnicities and the caption makes a wrong implication. My caption says that these Georgians were indeed the residents of Sukhumi. But it was the city of all its residents, not of Georgians only. That it was a part of Georgia, is a political matter and a separate one.
Finally, I corrected one more time the inflammatory section heading to make the discussion in this page possible. If you revert this again, it will speak only about your desire to discuss the matters (or lack of it). If I find working with you impossible, I will elaborate a detailed objections list at this tag, place a "totallydisputed" tag over the whole article and will let you sort this out. Take care, -- Irpen 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
My impression is that the article talks more about the War, the battles and the hostilities and too little about the profiles of the parties and the attempts for conflict resolution so far. It would possibly help if the subject is dealt with more restriction. Presenting this as an ongoing war (see template: "1992-present") is slightly exaggerating and contradicts with the rest of the article, which argues that apart from a short resumption of hostilities in 1998, there are only sporadic clashes between the parties. So its easier for us, like in most of zhe biblioraphy, to talk about a war in 1992-93 and a protracted conflict with historic causes streching possibly before 1989.
The section on Russia's role during the conflict, I think should be renamed to Russia's role during the war. Again military-peacekeeping intervention and post war conflict mediation should probably be discussed in different sections. All cited views regarding Russia's role are welcome. I put an excerpt from MacFarlanes, unfortunately I don't speak Russian and so far have found little sources on Russian official and academic views on the issue. Ideally we should document the facts of Russian intervention/mediation then offer the official and other views (in favour) of Russia's role and then offer the reader views of other parties and scholars (like MacFarlanes's and other's critique.
The main parties of the conflict Georgia proper and the breakaway de facto Republic should probably be dealt with in a similar way. Own views, views of others inside Georgian/Abkhaz society, critical views from inside and views from abroad.
To sum up I suggest the following plan of sections:
What do you think? It will take until mid September for me to actually do some of the things I mentioned, with all the citations and the research that is needed, because I will go on holidays and then I am moving to a new job. Thanks, Donnerstag 21:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, There is a problem with repetition and overlapping.
As per WP:REF#How to ask for citations I have moved an uncited statement here:
"The alleged aim of Russia was strengthening it's military control on Black Sea shore, depriving Georgia it's north-western territory with the help of Moscow supported separatist forces (which were striving not to independence, but to maintaining Russian control on this strategically important region of Georgia)."
On the first clause, the point is made later so no need to be in the text. The clause in parenthesis is in my opinion a bold assumption, and much worse, it's unquoted. If it's an allegation of the Georgian government or somebody else it should be made clear. Donnerstag 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Also there is a problem with the following paragraph:
Donnerstag 23:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
References
Here's a view on depelopments prior to the war from the Abkhaz side:
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2002/ac/rgaac/
Sephia karta 21:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, it should be mentioned in the article that Abkhazia was independant (as part of the North Caucasian Confederacy) for a short time after WW1 and that it entered the Soviet Union as a seperate Union Republic, its status was downgraded only in 1931 by Stalin. This shows where Abkhazia was coming from when it wanted to determine its status viz-a-viz Georgia, and shows its decleration of independance to be legally not as unreasonable as your ordinary act of seperatism.
http://www.bhhrg.org/Print.asp?ReportID=225&CountryID=10
http://www.abkhazia-georgia.parliament.ge/History/Abkhaz/lakoba.htm
Sephia karta 21:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, one should at least be cautious when using such partisan sources as BHHRG, a highly controversial organization which have illustrated Georgia's Rose Revolution as a violent coup d'etat against the constitutional order. They also write in their accounts of flourishing and democratic Abkhazia and destroyed and impoverished post- Abashidze Adjara. Heh! -- Kober 04:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, I think this article is informative and well-researched. That said, there are some remaining issues which I think need to be dealt with.
Firstly, the coverage of why the conflict started is vague, and seems to be implying some sort of separatist conspiracy. This needs to be balanced and give the perspectives of both sides.
Secondly, it contains very little about the actions of Georgian forces whatsoever - rather, it seems to be an ongoing list of Abkhaz atrocities and little else, some of which is not sourced. Where did the forces clash? Were the Georgians defeated at every juncture?
Thirdly, the chronology is a bit weak. As an outsider, it is hard for me to establish based on the article exactly what happened when. I think it would be an improvement if the sections were re-organised based on stages of the conflict, rather than on individual Abkhaz atrocities.
Fourthly, the allegations of Russian involvement are very poorly sourced - the whole Fall of Gagra section has only one source. This is a controversial topic, and it really does need to be well-sourced if that material is to remain in the article.
Fifthly, there are issues with encyclopedic tone, specifically in the "Fall of Sukhumi" section. The writing is quite emotive in nature, which is unnecessary - the facts speak for themselves, and having a "P.S. THIS WAS BAD" just detracts from the text.
Sixthly, there is very little about the exodus of refugees and its ongoing implications for Georgia.
Finally, the "Russian role in the conflict" section is problematic. The early paragraphs focus only on Georgia's allegations of Russian involvement, and the rest of the section smells of selective quoting, relying only on a couple of sources whose veracity and political leanings are unclear. This section in particular needs to be very well sourced and to draw from a wide range of sources and opinions Rebecca 03:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole section of the dedicated to the second fall of Sukhumi (when it was taken by Abkhazians) and to the atrocities committed in its course. On the other hand the first fall is described as follows:
On August 14, 1992, Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched to protect railways and restore an order in Abkhazia. The fights broke out the same day. On August 18, 1992, the separatist government left Sukhumi. Georgian government forces managed to take control of most of Abkhazia.
Meanwhile, that's just two quotes of the HRW's report about it [3], chapter HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN THE FIRST WEEKS OF HOSTILITIES:
Within days after Sukhumi was taken by Georgian National Guard troops, and as additional Georgian forces flowed into the city (including the Mkhedrioni), a pattern of vicious, ethnically based pillage, looting, assault, and murder emerged.62 Although some of the victims in Sukhumi were Georgian, the city's Abkhaz residents were the main victims during this period of the conflict. No one disputes that all sides engaged in high levels of criminality
...
The pattern that emerges from refugee testimony taken by Human Rights Watch is one of gross intimidation by Georgian forces for the purpose of terrorizing, robbing and driving the Abkhaz population out of their homes.
I think that more information should be added about this period of fighting. What about splitting the "History" section to "History" itself and "First two months of the conflict"? Alaexis 15:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
That's for sure, the Georgian ex-criminal (and soon to be criminals again) paramilitaries were infamous not only in this conflict. Have fun with trying this with the Georgian editors fighting the war still on Wikipedia. Previously, all my edits were reverted (not only correcting "Georgian civilians" into "Georgian militia" and such, but even simple interlinking this article to the other Wiki pages). -- HanzoHattori 02:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've finally written what I wanted about the beginning of the conflict, so now there are 2 more small questions. "Maliuk" is Slavic surname, how can he be an Abkhaz? By the way, is this story from "Annex to the Report of the UN Secretary General on the situation in Abkhazia, Georgia; Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict" or from somewhere else? Alaexis 14:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you provide some information about this cease-fire (preferably in the net)? Alaexis 14:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
What about adding more information about actual Russian role in the conflict (more facts of Russian army helping the separatists etc) and removing some of the quotes? Currently they occupy about 2/3 of the section. Why is Radzikhovsky chosen among Russian journalists? If there is a view from Georgian side (prof. Gachechiladze) why is the other side's opinion not present?
Besides let's add something like this:
It should also be noted that Russia transferred a significant amount of armour to Georgia according to the previous agreements regarding the break-up of Soviet Union.
I was bold to change a bit this article. Now we have this article for the overall conflict and War in Abkhazia for the 1992-1993 war. Much like Ethiopian-Somali conflict and Ogaden War. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph in question has nothing to do with the section it was inserted to (Abkhazian War). I also don't think that this info should be here at all as it tells nothing about the Georgian-Abkhazian relations. I'd say it belongs to History of Georgia article. Alæxis ¿question? 17:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I opened this page for the first time and I just want to say it looks a bit like a mess. The conflcit box seems totally out of place, especially on a lower resolution. - PietervHuis ( talk) 21:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The revision may have been plagiarism but it was an interesting read nonetheless. It is my belief that the articles related to Georgia's conflict with Abkhazia and South Ossetia are far too tilted towards Georgian POV. I believe we should add sourced information to this and other related articles in wikipedia that also demonstrate the POV in that revision. To remain NPOV we need to provide all POVs. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 05:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 14:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have the full text of the resolution?
Here it's just written that
“ | Also by the text, the Assembly emphasized the importance of preserving the property rights of refugees and internally displaced persons, including victims of reported “ethnic cleansing” | ” |
Imho this is not quite what is claimed in the article. Alæxis ¿question? 09:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
To say that 'ethnic cleansing' is mentioned in UN GA resolution is misleading, imho. It would take too much place in the intro to put this in proper context (like it's done in the article itself). The article isn't big at all so I think that it's enough to say about this resolution once. Alæxis ¿question? 09:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | It reiterated as “fundamentally important” the right of return for all the refugees and internally displaced persons to Abkhazia, Georgia, and required that individual property rights had not been affected by the fact that owners had had to flee during the conflict. | ” |
I think this needs more historical background. The underlying conflict probably didn't start in 1992. Superm401 - Talk 12:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
While the text in the intro is sourced and all that, it has a fairly strong anti-Abkhazian bias and I think it needs to be rewritten from a more neutral point of view. Thefamouseccles ( talk) 04:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
The infobox links to War in Abkhazia (1992–1993)#Russian role in the conflict, in which the Russian role in the Abkhazia war of 1992–1993 is discussed. But Georgian–Abkhazian conflict covers not only 1992–1993 events, also 2008 South Ossetia war and current events too, that make Russian Involvement in the conflict quiet clear. – BruTe Talk 09:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
“ | Involvement prior to 2008 disputed; discussed in the articles about the conflict, particularly here | ” |
Before 2008 it was not that simple: such facts as transfer of arms to Georgia prior to the 1992-2993 war, evacuation of civilians from Sukhumy by Black Sea Navy, economic blockade of Abkhazia after the war are well known and referenced in the appropriate articles. Alæxis ¿question? 20:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Georgian–Abkhaz conflict → Abkhaz–Georgian conflict – This is always done in alphabetical order ( Arab–Israeli conflict, Chechen–Russian conflict, Georgian–Ossetian conflict, Iraqi–Kurdish conflict, Israeli–Lebanese conflict, Israeli–Palestinian conflict, ect.). P.S. Abkhazian–Georgian conflict would also work. Charles Essie ( talk) 19:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Russo-Georgian War refers to conflict in Abkhazia but it describes conflict between Russia and Georgia. So, there must be dedicated page listing this event. OR you page to which "Russo-Georgian Conflict " redirected must be renamed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZviadPochkhua ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 2016 May 31
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 ( talk) 14:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Abkhaz–Georgian conflict → Abkhazia conflict – Well, appereantly it is not just Abkhaz-Georgian but Abkhaz-Russian-Georgian conflict since Russia is directly involved as a side and party (at least since 2008, arguably since the beginning of the conflict), not just as a supporter. Appereantly there is not just ethnic conflict but very important political conflict between Russia and Georgia which the article does not pays due attention to. So the Abkhazia conflict name illustrates situation much precisely. Moreover, we already have similar names to similar articles, such as Cyprus problem, where Turkey is involved in a similar way to Russia, and Transnistria conflict where Russia is involved in a similar way (although it is officially involved there less than in Abkhazia conflict). Moreover, there is WP:COMMONNAME rule which orders to use the most common name for Wikipedia articles. Appereantly most common version is Abkhazia conflict, it has most search results ( 1 300 000 for Abkhazia conflict, 164 000 for Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, 232 000 for Abkhaz-Georgian conflict), in books too (96 500 for Abkhazia conflict and much fewer for others). Additionally, per WP:CONCISE which orders to use most concise names, Abkhazia conflict is much more concise and better. Fodrid ( talk) 04:40, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
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What's a "moral loss," as referred to in the intro? Was that supposed to say "morale loss," or was some other meaning intended? Just wondering, as it's currently unclear. -- Parakkum 22:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a small problem with the article. At the end of the second paragraph of the subtitle called 'History of the Conflict', there is a word 'boevysk'. I cannot find any information about this word. I think there can be some transliteration problem while transliterating it from Russian or Georgian or Abkhaz language to Latin alphabet. Also if there is an information about this word in the article, it would be better. If someone helps me, I will be happy. I'm also interesting in Caucasian politics and Georgia specifically. I hope in near future I will make some contributions to the articles related with Georgia. Thanks for those who involved in the creation of this article. [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 11:50 UTC +2
Hi. "boyevik" is a Russian word for "militant" or "fighter" sometimes used in modern English to denote the members of rebel or unlawful military formations. -- Kober 09:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Kober [User: anil erdinc] 8 June 2006 22:05 UTC +2
The article as it now is presents the war and all the major events related in chronological order. However this doesn't promote the understanding of the causes of the conflict and doesn't give any clue for the stance of the parties and the role of foreign mediators. I believe that new sections should be created under the titles "Conflict Mediation", and a short "Profile of the parties" as well as a description of the "Current 2006 situation" regarding the conflict settlement. Donnerstag 22:05, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
In order to make it more expanatory, I have tried to summarize ideas expressed from some international scholars here:
The Abkhaz Side For the Abkhaz side collective memories of suppression from Georgian during the Soviet rule, cooperation of Georgian elements with Russian oppressions in 19th century and more importantly the element of fear that has survived after the Stalinist policies of Georgianization justify a tendency for demands of full independence.
The maximal—and the only expressed—claim of the Abkhaz people is secession or full independence. The solution they propose is that of two sovereign states. The status of the relations with Georgia, are not clear in their proposals, but the minimum requirement of any solution is the guarantee of independence (Cornell, 2002). Back in 1991, in one of the last attempts for power sharing before the armed clashes begun, a new electoral law on the allocation of seats in the Abkhaz parliament was accepted by Abkhaz leaders and Gamsakhurdia, but soon failed. The attempt failed then because both sides never abandoned the aspiration of monopoly of control over the territory of Abkhazia. Georgians justified their claims as that of the democratic majority; Abkhazians used the argument of autochthony and the need to correct the historical injustice, to justify their claims. Gamsakhurdia never truly believed in the arrangement but accepted it in order to close an open front and concentrate his efforts on the conflict with South Ossetia. The Abkhaz authorities accepted it is a concession giving further rights to their ethnic group (Coppieters, 2001).
Both Abkhaz government and opposition oppose any reunification with Georgia under any circumstances. To them the only plausible solutions would be either full independence or at other times associate membership of the Russian Federation. Since October 1999 when they declared their independence they haven’t moved from that position. In unofficial discussions reported by Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe (2003) Abkhaz leaders expressed their preference for a model of distribution of competences based on the sovereignty of the units, something like the association of the Marshall Islands with the United States, that would provide Abkhazia with full international legal personality and the right to secession. In the discussions, “some Abkhaz expressed the opinion that democratization—not reunification with Georgia—was the first priority for Abkhazia. Such a reunification was viewed as rendering the task of democratization more difficult” (Coppieters, Kovziridze and Uwe, 2003). Some Abkhaz officials supported the idea that declaring independence was the last resort as the Abkhaz proposals before and after the war were met with a counterproductive stance by Georgia.
Footnotes
Please tell me your suggestions or corrections. Donnerstag 22:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the Abkhaz side juridically justified Abkhaz independance with mainly these two lines of thought:
- Soviet law actually granted entities such as Abhazia souvereignity upon Georgian declaration of independance. When Georgia did so, Abkhazia decided to stay inside the Soviet Union, as a full union republic, and when the SU was disbanded, Abkhazia automatically became independant.
- Georgian parliament declared that all treaties, laws and agreements made during Soviet rule were null and void. Abkhazia however was not subordinated to Georgia until 1931, it had previously been of the same status as Georgia. Thus Georgia's cancelling of all Soviet laws automatically left Abkhazia legally outside Georgia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 13:30, 25 February 2006.
I've only got a link to that law, unfortunately not from a neutral site: http://www.nkrusa.org/nk_conflict/ussr_law.shtml —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.157.44.34 ( talk • contribs) 23:47, 26 February 2006.
Donnerstag 22:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
His article said it was "crucial".
I guess it should be noted somewhere the Georgians were the majority ethnic group in Abkhazia. -- HanzoHattori 21:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
What is "not NPOV"? Wiki-linking words? Or maybe calling a paramilitary fighters by name, instead of " civilians"? (If so, do you mean civilians mentioned later among casaulties all meant a guys with grenades and machine guns?) Please explain. -- HanzoHattori 22:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, a militia would be possibly a better name - with paramilitaries reserved to, well, a paramilitary supporters of Shevardnadze (if that's what you meant, because I honestly have no idea - are you guarding your vision of this article like this from everyone?). -- HanzoHattori 22:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Jesus Christ. WHAT "POV claims"? That civilian is "any person who is not a combatant"? That's what you mean? That the Georgian civilians in Abkhazia (Abkhaz and the Confederation forces launched a full-scale attack on Sokhumi resulting in large destruction and casualties among the civilians, twice) were in fact armed soldiers? In other words: are you insane? -- HanzoHattori 03:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The distinction of civilians is they are protected in the war because THEY DON'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS. They're not soldiers, paramilitaries, militiants, policemen, armed rebels, terrorists, even armed criminals, nothing, they are CIVILIANS, non-combatants in times of war. Guys in civilian clothes who don't fight. I can't be more clear on this. I don't know, maybe in Georgia "civilian" means something else, like a "light machinegun crew member doubling as a grenadier", but would you just stick to the international meaning? Also, what wrong is in changing "ethnic conflict" to " ethnic conflict" and such, I'd really like to know what's your problem. -- HanzoHattori 04:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
LOL. Dear "friends of Sosomk", the armed people on the photo are not captioned "civilians" anymore! Changes this ASAP! -- HanzoHattori 14:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
There must be a short outline of both Abkhaz and Georgian profiles. The previous one was full of POVs. Please make your suggestions before i draft the outline. Thanks Ldingley 18:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
User:Ghirlandajo Do not vandalize the article due to unfound claims of “nationalist POV.” If you believe so, please use this talk page and present your claims in civilized manner with reliable sources (primary source and secondary source), references, citations or historic documents. Please review the bibliography of the article. Do not use Abkhazia.org as source or any material from the conflicting side. The article is under heavy re-work and most of the materials and info is taken from sources mentioned in Bibliography. The proper citations will be added soon. Do not disturb this process and instead of vandalizing, help out and co-operate. Due to the nature of you being Russian, you have yoru won POV which is unsuitable for Wikipedia NPOV policy. However, it is most important to work and co-operate with any Wiki user and it would be more constructive then vandalistic rv. Start gathering sources and materials and you may change anything you want according to fair NPOV stand. Im looking forward to work with you and co-operate in order to complete this article successfully. Ldingley 15:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Please review the Bibliography and sources:
If you are rewriting the article, please refrain from using biased language and clean up it whenever possible. Please also refrain from attacking other editors. `' mikka (t) 17:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
the claim that soviet government inflamed the conflict is not a piece of trivia. First, it must be more detailed. Second, it must be backed by examples and references. `' mikka (t) 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not exactly interested in this topic or familiar with it. (In fact, I am not interested in any politics) I am merely pointing you at some glaring problems seen in the article at the very first glance. `' mikka (t) 18:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
All sentences about executions and atrocities must be backed by references. You promised to provide references, I know. Please start from these. `' mikka (t) 18:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Ldingley 's citations are amazing! I am just wondering why do we have to cite every single sentence, when the Russian articles tell lies. mikka, I would advise to you that you go ahead and cite the articles about Russia. Sosomk 13:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The article now occurs biased because it says nothing about real roots of the conflict. I don't know anything, but frankly I don't believe that the main reason was pure separatism and Soviet manipulation. Usually all these stories are rooted in real or perceived discrimination of a minority. The article bypasses this issue completely. I am repeating: "real or perceived". `' mikka (t) 18:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"What nationalists?" Georgian ones, which demanded secession from USSR. Just like Abkhazian ones demandes secession from Gerogia. Now, how about a little NPOV here? `' mikka (t) 23:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Also please stop acting like a cry-baby. I am not sayin anything about your numerous accusations of me pushing Russian POV. How funny to read them after reading some Russian complaining to another: "Why this Mikka is a Russophobe? Is he a Pole or what?" `' mikka (t) 23:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd ask all users to maintain a sort of status quo here until we find a final way how to develop the article. Let's discuss even a single word before its inclusion in the text. Ldingley has got a plenty of resources and documents related to the conflict and I think he is the best authority here on this particular issue.
I'd like also to remind our Russian colleagues that this is a very sensitive area and it would be really great if they refrain from posting the comments that are offensive to Georgians.-- Kober 05:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
"A Russophobic LDingley aggressively pushes his POV in Georgian-Abkhaz conflict despite myself being exceptionally mild with my changes after ghirla asked me to keep an eye. Judging from his swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist, contrary to the photo in his user page."
Very wrong thing to write: "swinging hot temper I start suspecting that he is in fact a sock of a Georgian nationalist " Also "Tengiz rather than Luis." Meaning, all georgians are hot tempered, ill behaved, and therefore damn Gruzin! This is definitely a national insults to Georgian users of Wikipedia. A typical discriminatory remark makes me assume that our common friend Mikahil is not that mild as he perceives. Now how do we at Wikipedia treat national Discrimination, personal attacks (please quote even one sentence where im being Russo phobic), personal insults (I'm turns out to be a Georgian nationalist sock) and violation of NPOV policy?
Ldingley 15:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate Mikka's and Irpen's efforts at bringing this page to normalcy. After a flood of Ldingley's edits, the page was ridiculously one-sided and read like an anti-Abkhazian slur by some very angry Georgian who is unable to change the situation. Such an article should be placed on Mr. Ssaskashvili's government site, but it's out of place in an encyclopaedia that professes to stick to neutrality. Pointing this out doesn't mean that you push "pro-Russian POV" and you should understand this, Kober. -- Ghirla -трёп- 19:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazs declared independence when there was a chaos in Georgia and basically thugs were controlling the country. The term anti-georgian discrimination is totally off the point. Georgian are not minority, they lived in Abkhazia for 4,000 years. Northern Caucasians are minorities there who somehow (of course with a big support of Russia) kicked out everybody except of Abkhazs and Russians. Thism however is a facism, so Georia is very democratic country where minorities have lots of rights. They also kicked out lots of Greeks and Jews from the region, so can totally call it Anti-Simetic and Anti-Greek facistic act. Another argument would be that if Georgians discriminate Northern Caucasians, why Gamsakhurdia supported Ichkeria? Obviously, it is a matter of politics and political ideology than the etnithity and ethnic ideology. Russian enjoyed watching Terrorists playing Soccer with the heads of dead Georgians. Sosomk 13:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Defening is just better grammar, their somehow imply that it was not Abkhaz. That is POV
Abkazia is recognized as a Region it is not recognized as an independent state
I have removed the following phrase Russia's aim was to create a conflict moment in order to justify its army in the soviet republic and to keep Georgia away from its Pro-EU and Pro-US political purpose to have closer relations with West not with East ( Russia)., since it looks like an ungrammatical POV rant, out of place in the article and having no sense in particular. abakharev 09:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear Alex, from where did you get this false information? "Abkhazian separatists supported Zviadists and Zviad Gamsakhurdia at that time recognized independence of Abkhazia " Can you please provide sources and references for such a claim? Also please try to gather all available sources from various documents and when adding something to the article, refer them in the Bibliography or Notes. Please consider to use both primary sources and secondary. I understand that this issue is very sensitive for Russians but trying to implement information which is far from reality is unacceptable for any user. Thanks a lot for your valuable contributions. Ldingley 19:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I propose you the following formulation: "Unrecognized Abkhaz authorities".-- Georgianis 07:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
It's more WP:NPOV the title like this. Actually it's about the Russian-Georgian war in Abkhazia. In Georgia, Russian support for Abkhazian separatists and its manipulation of rebellious Georgian forces under former leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia brought President Eduard Shevardnadze to his knees and compelled him, in October, to join the CIS and, in early 1994, to sign a friendship treaty with Russia. The next wide-scaled bombings of Sukhumi by Russian military aircraft has happened on February 20-th, 1993. This coincides with the intensification of political fight for power between various parties in Tbilissi. The pretext of bombing was the next provocative cannonade by the forces of junta in direction of the military seismological laboratory of Russian troops in Eshera, near Sukhumi.-- Georgianis 07:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
"south Ossetia"
First bloody conflict between Georgians and Abkhazians, enflamed by Kremlin agents in soviet period (July 15th, 1989) soon was forgotten by both sides, until the bloody coup d'etat, inspired and organized by Moscow and it's emissary, Eduard Shevardnadze, happened in Georgia. -- Georgianis 07:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Abkhazian war was unleashed by Shevardnadze "in coordination with Kremlin", as he stated by national TV in August 1992. The aim of Russia was strengthening it's military control on Black Sea shore, depriving Georgia it's north-western territory, whereas regime of Shevardnadze was striving to establish his totalitarian rule in Abkhazia and punishing it's Georgian population, 90% of which supported President Gamsakhurdia. By that reason Sukhumi was bombed by Shevardnadze's aircraft.-- Georgianis 07:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
At the same time, taking into account increasing imperial tendencies in Russia and interests of well-known destructive forces, trying to increase their influence in the region, situation can be become more and more dangerous and harmful to the western interests also. Similar tendencies in other former Soviet republics (i.e. in Azerbaijan) shows this evidently.-- Georgianis 07:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The coast between Sochi (today in Russia) and Suchumi, the capital of Abkhasia, is full of sea-side resorts and beautifull long sand-strands - as well as datachas of former Soviet politicians and high military officers. Many of locally based Russian-generals disliked the idea of losing their possessions here, and this appears to have been one of main reasons for their support of Abkhasians in this conflict. This, in turn, is also the reason why the Abkhasian war against Georgia is sometimes called "The War of Datchas". Georgianis 07:54, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The war and the associated Caucasian terrorism in Russia resulted in growing intolerance and racist violence in Russia, directed in a great part against the people from Caucasus. Even while the Russian authorities are unlikely to label attacks on people with dark skin as racist, preferring calling this " hooliganism", a report in November 2005 found that murders officially classified as racist more than doubled in Russia between 2003 and 2004 from around 20 to at least 45.
A nationwide opinion poll in 2005 found that 61% of respondents approved of the "Russia for Russians" slogan, almost twice the 31% level recorded in 1998. [1] According to the 2006 poll by the Public Opinion Foundation, 12% of Russians see "positive ideas" in fascism; 24% think that people who hold fascist views do not constitute a danger to society. -- Georgianis 09:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Alex, please just don't blind revert. Thank you. -- Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
This paragraph I proposed you above for discussion.
Please don't blind revert. -- Georgianis 12:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
[moved to a subpage a few megabytes of text, pasted from an outside source] -- Irpen 20:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The above text is from the War and Secession: A Moral Analysis of the Georgian–Abkhaz Conflict
Coppieters, Bruno. You can buy online. --
Georgianis |
(t) 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I read it with the great interest and will read it again. However, you should learn to assume good faith. Your accusations of hidden motives over every action undermine your credibility. I explained the reason why this was moved at your talk page in a very detailed way. -- Irpen 21:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Kober: "I think the involvement of the third party is needed as I would hardly regard Russian users as a disinterested party in this particular issue." This has gone too far, and all thanks to some users who consider Western sources as Russophobic. I will contact User:Donnerstag, the original author of this article, also User:Khoikhoi and others to help out. Russian involvement seems conflicting due to political reality concerning Abkhazia and Russia. Therefore, this article will always suffer. I will contact other users for help. Thanks Kober. Ldingley 14:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
BTW on September 14 (today) 1992, the war started in Abkhazia. Ldingley 14:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't support such a blind revert. My arguments are:
I will support only this formulation: Georgian residents of Sukhumi defending the city, 1993 It's about their country, their city.
Georgianis |
(t) 20:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not trying to imply anything about Sukhumi's being Georgian or not. It was a part of the Georgian republic, that's for sure. At the same time it was populated by many ethnicities and the caption makes a wrong implication. My caption says that these Georgians were indeed the residents of Sukhumi. But it was the city of all its residents, not of Georgians only. That it was a part of Georgia, is a political matter and a separate one.
Finally, I corrected one more time the inflammatory section heading to make the discussion in this page possible. If you revert this again, it will speak only about your desire to discuss the matters (or lack of it). If I find working with you impossible, I will elaborate a detailed objections list at this tag, place a "totallydisputed" tag over the whole article and will let you sort this out. Take care, -- Irpen 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
My impression is that the article talks more about the War, the battles and the hostilities and too little about the profiles of the parties and the attempts for conflict resolution so far. It would possibly help if the subject is dealt with more restriction. Presenting this as an ongoing war (see template: "1992-present") is slightly exaggerating and contradicts with the rest of the article, which argues that apart from a short resumption of hostilities in 1998, there are only sporadic clashes between the parties. So its easier for us, like in most of zhe biblioraphy, to talk about a war in 1992-93 and a protracted conflict with historic causes streching possibly before 1989.
The section on Russia's role during the conflict, I think should be renamed to Russia's role during the war. Again military-peacekeeping intervention and post war conflict mediation should probably be discussed in different sections. All cited views regarding Russia's role are welcome. I put an excerpt from MacFarlanes, unfortunately I don't speak Russian and so far have found little sources on Russian official and academic views on the issue. Ideally we should document the facts of Russian intervention/mediation then offer the official and other views (in favour) of Russia's role and then offer the reader views of other parties and scholars (like MacFarlanes's and other's critique.
The main parties of the conflict Georgia proper and the breakaway de facto Republic should probably be dealt with in a similar way. Own views, views of others inside Georgian/Abkhaz society, critical views from inside and views from abroad.
To sum up I suggest the following plan of sections:
What do you think? It will take until mid September for me to actually do some of the things I mentioned, with all the citations and the research that is needed, because I will go on holidays and then I am moving to a new job. Thanks, Donnerstag 21:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear all, There is a problem with repetition and overlapping.
As per WP:REF#How to ask for citations I have moved an uncited statement here:
"The alleged aim of Russia was strengthening it's military control on Black Sea shore, depriving Georgia it's north-western territory with the help of Moscow supported separatist forces (which were striving not to independence, but to maintaining Russian control on this strategically important region of Georgia)."
On the first clause, the point is made later so no need to be in the text. The clause in parenthesis is in my opinion a bold assumption, and much worse, it's unquoted. If it's an allegation of the Georgian government or somebody else it should be made clear. Donnerstag 23:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Also there is a problem with the following paragraph:
Donnerstag 23:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
References
Here's a view on depelopments prior to the war from the Abkhaz side:
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2002/ac/rgaac/
Sephia karta 21:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, it should be mentioned in the article that Abkhazia was independant (as part of the North Caucasian Confederacy) for a short time after WW1 and that it entered the Soviet Union as a seperate Union Republic, its status was downgraded only in 1931 by Stalin. This shows where Abkhazia was coming from when it wanted to determine its status viz-a-viz Georgia, and shows its decleration of independance to be legally not as unreasonable as your ordinary act of seperatism.
http://www.bhhrg.org/Print.asp?ReportID=225&CountryID=10
http://www.abkhazia-georgia.parliament.ge/History/Abkhaz/lakoba.htm
Sephia karta 21:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, one should at least be cautious when using such partisan sources as BHHRG, a highly controversial organization which have illustrated Georgia's Rose Revolution as a violent coup d'etat against the constitutional order. They also write in their accounts of flourishing and democratic Abkhazia and destroyed and impoverished post- Abashidze Adjara. Heh! -- Kober 04:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, I think this article is informative and well-researched. That said, there are some remaining issues which I think need to be dealt with.
Firstly, the coverage of why the conflict started is vague, and seems to be implying some sort of separatist conspiracy. This needs to be balanced and give the perspectives of both sides.
Secondly, it contains very little about the actions of Georgian forces whatsoever - rather, it seems to be an ongoing list of Abkhaz atrocities and little else, some of which is not sourced. Where did the forces clash? Were the Georgians defeated at every juncture?
Thirdly, the chronology is a bit weak. As an outsider, it is hard for me to establish based on the article exactly what happened when. I think it would be an improvement if the sections were re-organised based on stages of the conflict, rather than on individual Abkhaz atrocities.
Fourthly, the allegations of Russian involvement are very poorly sourced - the whole Fall of Gagra section has only one source. This is a controversial topic, and it really does need to be well-sourced if that material is to remain in the article.
Fifthly, there are issues with encyclopedic tone, specifically in the "Fall of Sukhumi" section. The writing is quite emotive in nature, which is unnecessary - the facts speak for themselves, and having a "P.S. THIS WAS BAD" just detracts from the text.
Sixthly, there is very little about the exodus of refugees and its ongoing implications for Georgia.
Finally, the "Russian role in the conflict" section is problematic. The early paragraphs focus only on Georgia's allegations of Russian involvement, and the rest of the section smells of selective quoting, relying only on a couple of sources whose veracity and political leanings are unclear. This section in particular needs to be very well sourced and to draw from a wide range of sources and opinions Rebecca 03:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole section of the dedicated to the second fall of Sukhumi (when it was taken by Abkhazians) and to the atrocities committed in its course. On the other hand the first fall is described as follows:
On August 14, 1992, Georgian police and National Guards units were dispatched to protect railways and restore an order in Abkhazia. The fights broke out the same day. On August 18, 1992, the separatist government left Sukhumi. Georgian government forces managed to take control of most of Abkhazia.
Meanwhile, that's just two quotes of the HRW's report about it [3], chapter HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES IN THE FIRST WEEKS OF HOSTILITIES:
Within days after Sukhumi was taken by Georgian National Guard troops, and as additional Georgian forces flowed into the city (including the Mkhedrioni), a pattern of vicious, ethnically based pillage, looting, assault, and murder emerged.62 Although some of the victims in Sukhumi were Georgian, the city's Abkhaz residents were the main victims during this period of the conflict. No one disputes that all sides engaged in high levels of criminality
...
The pattern that emerges from refugee testimony taken by Human Rights Watch is one of gross intimidation by Georgian forces for the purpose of terrorizing, robbing and driving the Abkhaz population out of their homes.
I think that more information should be added about this period of fighting. What about splitting the "History" section to "History" itself and "First two months of the conflict"? Alaexis 15:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
That's for sure, the Georgian ex-criminal (and soon to be criminals again) paramilitaries were infamous not only in this conflict. Have fun with trying this with the Georgian editors fighting the war still on Wikipedia. Previously, all my edits were reverted (not only correcting "Georgian civilians" into "Georgian militia" and such, but even simple interlinking this article to the other Wiki pages). -- HanzoHattori 02:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I've finally written what I wanted about the beginning of the conflict, so now there are 2 more small questions. "Maliuk" is Slavic surname, how can he be an Abkhaz? By the way, is this story from "Annex to the Report of the UN Secretary General on the situation in Abkhazia, Georgia; Proposals for political and legal elements for a comprehensive settlement of the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict" or from somewhere else? Alaexis 14:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Could you provide some information about this cease-fire (preferably in the net)? Alaexis 14:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
What about adding more information about actual Russian role in the conflict (more facts of Russian army helping the separatists etc) and removing some of the quotes? Currently they occupy about 2/3 of the section. Why is Radzikhovsky chosen among Russian journalists? If there is a view from Georgian side (prof. Gachechiladze) why is the other side's opinion not present?
Besides let's add something like this:
It should also be noted that Russia transferred a significant amount of armour to Georgia according to the previous agreements regarding the break-up of Soviet Union.
I was bold to change a bit this article. Now we have this article for the overall conflict and War in Abkhazia for the 1992-1993 war. Much like Ethiopian-Somali conflict and Ogaden War. -- TheFEARgod ( Ч) 15:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph in question has nothing to do with the section it was inserted to (Abkhazian War). I also don't think that this info should be here at all as it tells nothing about the Georgian-Abkhazian relations. I'd say it belongs to History of Georgia article. Alæxis ¿question? 17:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I opened this page for the first time and I just want to say it looks a bit like a mess. The conflcit box seems totally out of place, especially on a lower resolution. - PietervHuis ( talk) 21:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The revision may have been plagiarism but it was an interesting read nonetheless. It is my belief that the articles related to Georgia's conflict with Abkhazia and South Ossetia are far too tilted towards Georgian POV. I believe we should add sourced information to this and other related articles in wikipedia that also demonstrate the POV in that revision. To remain NPOV we need to provide all POVs. Pocopocopocopoco ( talk) 05:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Article reassessed and graded as start class. -- dashiellx ( talk) 14:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone have the full text of the resolution?
Here it's just written that
“ | Also by the text, the Assembly emphasized the importance of preserving the property rights of refugees and internally displaced persons, including victims of reported “ethnic cleansing” | ” |
Imho this is not quite what is claimed in the article. Alæxis ¿question? 09:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
To say that 'ethnic cleansing' is mentioned in UN GA resolution is misleading, imho. It would take too much place in the intro to put this in proper context (like it's done in the article itself). The article isn't big at all so I think that it's enough to say about this resolution once. Alæxis ¿question? 09:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | It reiterated as “fundamentally important” the right of return for all the refugees and internally displaced persons to Abkhazia, Georgia, and required that individual property rights had not been affected by the fact that owners had had to flee during the conflict. | ” |
I think this needs more historical background. The underlying conflict probably didn't start in 1992. Superm401 - Talk 12:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
While the text in the intro is sourced and all that, it has a fairly strong anti-Abkhazian bias and I think it needs to be rewritten from a more neutral point of view. Thefamouseccles ( talk) 04:14, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
The infobox links to War in Abkhazia (1992–1993)#Russian role in the conflict, in which the Russian role in the Abkhazia war of 1992–1993 is discussed. But Georgian–Abkhazian conflict covers not only 1992–1993 events, also 2008 South Ossetia war and current events too, that make Russian Involvement in the conflict quiet clear. – BruTe Talk 09:59, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
“ | Involvement prior to 2008 disputed; discussed in the articles about the conflict, particularly here | ” |
Before 2008 it was not that simple: such facts as transfer of arms to Georgia prior to the 1992-2993 war, evacuation of civilians from Sukhumy by Black Sea Navy, economic blockade of Abkhazia after the war are well known and referenced in the appropriate articles. Alæxis ¿question? 20:30, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Georgian–Abkhaz conflict → Abkhaz–Georgian conflict – This is always done in alphabetical order ( Arab–Israeli conflict, Chechen–Russian conflict, Georgian–Ossetian conflict, Iraqi–Kurdish conflict, Israeli–Lebanese conflict, Israeli–Palestinian conflict, ect.). P.S. Abkhazian–Georgian conflict would also work. Charles Essie ( talk) 19:15, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Russo-Georgian War refers to conflict in Abkhazia but it describes conflict between Russia and Georgia. So, there must be dedicated page listing this event. OR you page to which "Russo-Georgian Conflict " redirected must be renamed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZviadPochkhua ( talk • contribs) 14:03, 2016 May 31
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The result of the move request was: moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 ( talk) 14:14, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Abkhaz–Georgian conflict → Abkhazia conflict – Well, appereantly it is not just Abkhaz-Georgian but Abkhaz-Russian-Georgian conflict since Russia is directly involved as a side and party (at least since 2008, arguably since the beginning of the conflict), not just as a supporter. Appereantly there is not just ethnic conflict but very important political conflict between Russia and Georgia which the article does not pays due attention to. So the Abkhazia conflict name illustrates situation much precisely. Moreover, we already have similar names to similar articles, such as Cyprus problem, where Turkey is involved in a similar way to Russia, and Transnistria conflict where Russia is involved in a similar way (although it is officially involved there less than in Abkhazia conflict). Moreover, there is WP:COMMONNAME rule which orders to use the most common name for Wikipedia articles. Appereantly most common version is Abkhazia conflict, it has most search results ( 1 300 000 for Abkhazia conflict, 164 000 for Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, 232 000 for Abkhaz-Georgian conflict), in books too (96 500 for Abkhazia conflict and much fewer for others). Additionally, per WP:CONCISE which orders to use most concise names, Abkhazia conflict is much more concise and better. Fodrid ( talk) 04:40, 22 November 2023 (UTC)