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In response to " of course, but that doesn't mean we remove the cat. Added wikilink, restored original, correct wording for VDS' group," I have restored the organizational cleanup of the page because there was no reason given for undoing it. The editor only [validly] said that doesn't not mean remove the category, fair enough on that point for restoring it, it should also be put of for discussion.
Following that however it makes the assumption that it is restoring the original for no reason given. The page was cleaned from a stub to organize for better reading and w/o the said explanation it was reverted simple because "doesn't mean we remove the cat. Added wikilink, restored original, correct wording." After re-reading, still don't understand how "restored original" fits with the established logic. The debate has now been placed in talk, so let's discuss any reasons for changes. Lihaas ( talk) 14:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
How was it made a "B-class" article? According to WP:ASSESS that should mean "No reader should be left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher." However, it is "left wanting" for significant lack of info. especially in its History. "C-class" could be good, better than a start, as it is "Useful to a casual reader, but would not provide a complete picture for even a moderately detailed study." Lihaas ( talk) 14:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
( 202.159.224.144 ( talk) 07:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)). Factual Position In Respect of “Abhinav Bharat”
Abhinav Bharat was and is in no way a Hindu communal organization. Prosecution of certain individuals for acts of terror who are connected with an organization that is supposedly called Abhinav Bharat has given rise to adverse publicity to a Noble name and hence this write up to set the record straight
Abhinav Bharat in the 20th Century
Abhinav Bharat was the name of a secret revolutionary society formed in the first decade of the twentieth century by patriotic Indians who dared to dream of a United – Non Sectarian Independent India. The organization took its inspiration from “Young Italy”, led by the Italian Revolutionary Mazzini, which was instrumental in unifying and freeing Italy from the yolk of Austrian slavery during the Nineteenth Century.
Prominent amongst its leaders were Madam Cama and Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. The ideal of unity and non sectarian nature of Abhinav Bharat was inherent in its flag that included Hindu Saffron as also the Muslim Moon and Crescent on Green joined together by a band of red signifying the blood bond between the two communities.
Madam Cama unfurled this flag on the International stage in Stuttgart, Germany on August 18, 1907. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar went to write his epic “ The Great War of Independence of 1857” which propounded the revolutionary theory that the Hindus and Muslims had become blood brothers from 1857. Not surprisingly, the book was banned by the British colonial power until the dying days of its Raj in India.
Once the existence of Abhinav Bharat was discovered by the British Raj – its members suffered terrible ordeal. The organization itself was destroyed – though it continued to serve as an inspiration to all those who took up arms against the British Raj like Bhagat Singh and Netaji Bose.
Madam Cama suffered long years of exile from India, while Vinayak Damodar Savarkar suffered years of penal imprisonment. Later he took up the cause of “Hindutva” and worked for eradication of the caste system. He did seem to have abandoned the flag of Abhinav Bharat in his later years as he worked under the banner of “Hindu Maha Sabha”.
In 1952, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar dissolved Abhinav Bharat in a public function since the objective of Independent India had been attained. There is no record of any movement or Group that sought to adopt the name Abhinav Bharat during the subsequent 48 years of the 20th century
Historical authenticity of the above account is in no doubt and can be verified from any historical account of the period
Abhinav Bharat in the 21st Century
On 29th January 2002, “Abhinav Bharat” was registered as a Public Charitable Trust under Bombay Public Trust Act 1950. Its original Trustees were Manjiri Phadnis, Meena Prabhu and Pankaj Phadnis. Maharashtra Executor and Trustee Company, a subsidiary of the Bank of Maharashtra – a bank owned by the Government of India, was appointed as the Joint Managing Trustee.
The Trust seeks to work for an economically and socially independent India by taking up such pubic causes as Education, Health and Sports. It believes that the way to a better future lies in learning the right lessons from the past.
We believe that Recurring communal riots in an Independent India and poisonous relations with Pakistan are some of the big road block in development of a Just Humane Society. We believe that if People of India and Pakistan realize that Bahadur Shah Zafar was their common national sovereign in 1857 for whom the Hindus and Muslims fought and died, much of their present animosity will dissipate .
We have therefore published the following research books:
• Freedom Struggle – The Unfinished Story • War for Truth • The British Mutiny of 1857 • Moving Away from Gandhian Monopoly • Abhimanyu Betrayed.
We have also filed Public Interest Litigation in the High Court and Supreme Court of India to get Government of India to publicly recognize that Bahadur Shah Zafar was the De jure Indian Sovereign in 1857. The Ministry of Home Affairs vide their Office Memorandum No 12014/4/2005-SR have accepted this position.
The research findings have been examined by a Committee of the Experts and Historians of the National Archives of India and not disputed. Office Memorandum F No 11-7/2005-R-I of 17th February 2006
The Ministry of Law and Justice vide their letter No L 15012/1/2009-Jus have requested the Supreme Court of India to look into our views.
In addition we have sponsored a Doctoral Study on Universalization of Primary Education in India being conducted in the University of Mumbai
The Trust is in discussions with the Government of Maharashtra for running a Rural Health Center in Public Private Partnership
Violence and Sectarian activities of any kind have no place in our scheme of things
The Imposter Abhinav Bharat
It appears that another Trust was registered in Pune by certain individuals in May 2007 and was wrongly allotted the name of Abhinav Bharat. This Trust could in law not have been given the name “Abhinav Bharat” since the name was already in use since 2002..
Many people connected with this Trust are currently being prosecuted by the State of Maharashtra for their alleged involvement in certain acts of violence in Malegaon. Wide spread publicity to this prosecution has tarred the name of Abhinav Bharat. Further more one Himani Savarkar who claims to be President of Abhinav Bharat has issued certain objectionable statements against all minorities in India further vitiating the atmosphere.
Actions Taken by the Real Abhinav Bharat against the Imposter
• A Public Notice stating the correct facts has been put up on our web site www.abhinavbharat.org which has been accessible without any interruption
• The Police Authorities have been informed of the facts by a letter
• Several Press and TV Interviews given to disseminate the right information
• A Public Interest Case filed in the Bombay High Court (PIL 2 of 2009) seeking:
• To restrain Himani Savarkar from issuing any statements against the Minorities
• Cancellation of the wrongly allotted name Abhinav Bharat to the Pune organization
The matter is pending hearing and disposal in the Hon’ble High Court in Mumbai
Pankaj Phadnis
Settlor and Advisory Trustee
Abhinav Bharat
June 1, 2009
This article cannot be about two different groups. It has to be disambiguated. -- Againme ( talk) 19:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I had recently deleted a major chunk of the article because the references do not exist (not even in archive so impossible to verify). It was reverted and I was requested to find alternative sources instead of zealously deleting them. I will try to find secondary sources and verifiable links. Meanwhile I am tagging the article appropriately and adding tags to terms I consider weasel terms like "several functionary" , "several attack", "several officers", "believed to have been", "some of whom". Please make specific edits over these and do not revert all changes en-masse. I am careful not to remove content even if they are not verifiable. Please share any secondary sources that my benefit this article. Jyoti ( talk) 04:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
The lead section was biased. Abhinav Bharat is a right-wing Hindu extremist organization and the lead was changed to prvide false information about it. How can the lead of a particular organization describes 3 separate organizations? There is already a separate article on Abhinav Bharat Society then why it is needed to put this into this article? Edmondhills ( talk) 18:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Edmondhills you are re-inserting this section repeatedly ignoring earlier edits (and their comments) please justify. Here are links from four previous times: 1, 2, 3, 4. Jyoti ( talk) 14:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Here is the diff. Please justify that the statement is supported by the reference. I think it is original research. It has be re-inserted without discussion and ignoring earlier edit summary. Jyoti ( talk) 14:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
What was the justification of rewording the heading in these two cases( 1, 2) and the content remained an older copy and intermediate edits were lost? Can you not edit the content in place and provide justification in edit summary? It is not possible to cleanup behind you - unless you make edits that are not whole sale changes taking the article back to an older state. You can probably re-instate some of your changes. But in the present bulk edit I do not see any merit and excruciatingly painful to do the cleanup and preserve earlier contributions behind you. Jyoti ( talk) 14:47, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Diff link. Actual mention of historic information is removed and recent allegation is introduced under 'History' section by Edmondhills -- Jyoti ( talk) 02:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Diff link of Edmondhills. These are the three references used: 1, 2, 3. Here are my objections.
-- Jyoti ( talk) 03:11, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
While I see the current lead is absolutely fine backed with references please, do not insert information about the Abhinav Bharat Society started by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar on the leaad however such information may be helpful for Abhinav Bharat Society article. Abhinav Bharat is different from Abhinav Bharat Society as Abhinav Bharat Society is a defunct organization after independence. Edmondhills ( talk) 08:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Vanamonde93: diff, with edit summary: "the source is terribly written, and most of the info is redundant". Do you mean to say the two references are not written nicely? Yes there is some trimming possible, rest should be salvaged. -- AmritasyaPutra T 11:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
A few points:
Cheers, Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
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Abhinav Bharat is a right wing Hindu Revolutionary organization founded by Retired Major of Indian Army Ramesh Upadhyay [1] [2] and Lt. Col. Prasad Shrikant Purohit [3] in 2006 in Pune, Maharashtra. It has a large base in Madhya Pradesh. The organization is believed to be the revived form the pre-Independence era Abhinav Bharat Society Kumar88.ram ( talk) 09:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Is it not famous for terrorism? https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/hindu-rashtra-saffron-terrors-hall-of-shame-78870-2010-07-18 Zikrullah ( talk) 09:44, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Abhinav Bharat article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In response to " of course, but that doesn't mean we remove the cat. Added wikilink, restored original, correct wording for VDS' group," I have restored the organizational cleanup of the page because there was no reason given for undoing it. The editor only [validly] said that doesn't not mean remove the category, fair enough on that point for restoring it, it should also be put of for discussion.
Following that however it makes the assumption that it is restoring the original for no reason given. The page was cleaned from a stub to organize for better reading and w/o the said explanation it was reverted simple because "doesn't mean we remove the cat. Added wikilink, restored original, correct wording." After re-reading, still don't understand how "restored original" fits with the established logic. The debate has now been placed in talk, so let's discuss any reasons for changes. Lihaas ( talk) 14:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
How was it made a "B-class" article? According to WP:ASSESS that should mean "No reader should be left wanting, although the content may not be complete enough to satisfy a serious student or researcher." However, it is "left wanting" for significant lack of info. especially in its History. "C-class" could be good, better than a start, as it is "Useful to a casual reader, but would not provide a complete picture for even a moderately detailed study." Lihaas ( talk) 14:59, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
( 202.159.224.144 ( talk) 07:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)). Factual Position In Respect of “Abhinav Bharat”
Abhinav Bharat was and is in no way a Hindu communal organization. Prosecution of certain individuals for acts of terror who are connected with an organization that is supposedly called Abhinav Bharat has given rise to adverse publicity to a Noble name and hence this write up to set the record straight
Abhinav Bharat in the 20th Century
Abhinav Bharat was the name of a secret revolutionary society formed in the first decade of the twentieth century by patriotic Indians who dared to dream of a United – Non Sectarian Independent India. The organization took its inspiration from “Young Italy”, led by the Italian Revolutionary Mazzini, which was instrumental in unifying and freeing Italy from the yolk of Austrian slavery during the Nineteenth Century.
Prominent amongst its leaders were Madam Cama and Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. The ideal of unity and non sectarian nature of Abhinav Bharat was inherent in its flag that included Hindu Saffron as also the Muslim Moon and Crescent on Green joined together by a band of red signifying the blood bond between the two communities.
Madam Cama unfurled this flag on the International stage in Stuttgart, Germany on August 18, 1907. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar went to write his epic “ The Great War of Independence of 1857” which propounded the revolutionary theory that the Hindus and Muslims had become blood brothers from 1857. Not surprisingly, the book was banned by the British colonial power until the dying days of its Raj in India.
Once the existence of Abhinav Bharat was discovered by the British Raj – its members suffered terrible ordeal. The organization itself was destroyed – though it continued to serve as an inspiration to all those who took up arms against the British Raj like Bhagat Singh and Netaji Bose.
Madam Cama suffered long years of exile from India, while Vinayak Damodar Savarkar suffered years of penal imprisonment. Later he took up the cause of “Hindutva” and worked for eradication of the caste system. He did seem to have abandoned the flag of Abhinav Bharat in his later years as he worked under the banner of “Hindu Maha Sabha”.
In 1952, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar dissolved Abhinav Bharat in a public function since the objective of Independent India had been attained. There is no record of any movement or Group that sought to adopt the name Abhinav Bharat during the subsequent 48 years of the 20th century
Historical authenticity of the above account is in no doubt and can be verified from any historical account of the period
Abhinav Bharat in the 21st Century
On 29th January 2002, “Abhinav Bharat” was registered as a Public Charitable Trust under Bombay Public Trust Act 1950. Its original Trustees were Manjiri Phadnis, Meena Prabhu and Pankaj Phadnis. Maharashtra Executor and Trustee Company, a subsidiary of the Bank of Maharashtra – a bank owned by the Government of India, was appointed as the Joint Managing Trustee.
The Trust seeks to work for an economically and socially independent India by taking up such pubic causes as Education, Health and Sports. It believes that the way to a better future lies in learning the right lessons from the past.
We believe that Recurring communal riots in an Independent India and poisonous relations with Pakistan are some of the big road block in development of a Just Humane Society. We believe that if People of India and Pakistan realize that Bahadur Shah Zafar was their common national sovereign in 1857 for whom the Hindus and Muslims fought and died, much of their present animosity will dissipate .
We have therefore published the following research books:
• Freedom Struggle – The Unfinished Story • War for Truth • The British Mutiny of 1857 • Moving Away from Gandhian Monopoly • Abhimanyu Betrayed.
We have also filed Public Interest Litigation in the High Court and Supreme Court of India to get Government of India to publicly recognize that Bahadur Shah Zafar was the De jure Indian Sovereign in 1857. The Ministry of Home Affairs vide their Office Memorandum No 12014/4/2005-SR have accepted this position.
The research findings have been examined by a Committee of the Experts and Historians of the National Archives of India and not disputed. Office Memorandum F No 11-7/2005-R-I of 17th February 2006
The Ministry of Law and Justice vide their letter No L 15012/1/2009-Jus have requested the Supreme Court of India to look into our views.
In addition we have sponsored a Doctoral Study on Universalization of Primary Education in India being conducted in the University of Mumbai
The Trust is in discussions with the Government of Maharashtra for running a Rural Health Center in Public Private Partnership
Violence and Sectarian activities of any kind have no place in our scheme of things
The Imposter Abhinav Bharat
It appears that another Trust was registered in Pune by certain individuals in May 2007 and was wrongly allotted the name of Abhinav Bharat. This Trust could in law not have been given the name “Abhinav Bharat” since the name was already in use since 2002..
Many people connected with this Trust are currently being prosecuted by the State of Maharashtra for their alleged involvement in certain acts of violence in Malegaon. Wide spread publicity to this prosecution has tarred the name of Abhinav Bharat. Further more one Himani Savarkar who claims to be President of Abhinav Bharat has issued certain objectionable statements against all minorities in India further vitiating the atmosphere.
Actions Taken by the Real Abhinav Bharat against the Imposter
• A Public Notice stating the correct facts has been put up on our web site www.abhinavbharat.org which has been accessible without any interruption
• The Police Authorities have been informed of the facts by a letter
• Several Press and TV Interviews given to disseminate the right information
• A Public Interest Case filed in the Bombay High Court (PIL 2 of 2009) seeking:
• To restrain Himani Savarkar from issuing any statements against the Minorities
• Cancellation of the wrongly allotted name Abhinav Bharat to the Pune organization
The matter is pending hearing and disposal in the Hon’ble High Court in Mumbai
Pankaj Phadnis
Settlor and Advisory Trustee
Abhinav Bharat
June 1, 2009
This article cannot be about two different groups. It has to be disambiguated. -- Againme ( talk) 19:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
I had recently deleted a major chunk of the article because the references do not exist (not even in archive so impossible to verify). It was reverted and I was requested to find alternative sources instead of zealously deleting them. I will try to find secondary sources and verifiable links. Meanwhile I am tagging the article appropriately and adding tags to terms I consider weasel terms like "several functionary" , "several attack", "several officers", "believed to have been", "some of whom". Please make specific edits over these and do not revert all changes en-masse. I am careful not to remove content even if they are not verifiable. Please share any secondary sources that my benefit this article. Jyoti ( talk) 04:44, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
The lead section was biased. Abhinav Bharat is a right-wing Hindu extremist organization and the lead was changed to prvide false information about it. How can the lead of a particular organization describes 3 separate organizations? There is already a separate article on Abhinav Bharat Society then why it is needed to put this into this article? Edmondhills ( talk) 18:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Edmondhills you are re-inserting this section repeatedly ignoring earlier edits (and their comments) please justify. Here are links from four previous times: 1, 2, 3, 4. Jyoti ( talk) 14:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Here is the diff. Please justify that the statement is supported by the reference. I think it is original research. It has be re-inserted without discussion and ignoring earlier edit summary. Jyoti ( talk) 14:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
What was the justification of rewording the heading in these two cases( 1, 2) and the content remained an older copy and intermediate edits were lost? Can you not edit the content in place and provide justification in edit summary? It is not possible to cleanup behind you - unless you make edits that are not whole sale changes taking the article back to an older state. You can probably re-instate some of your changes. But in the present bulk edit I do not see any merit and excruciatingly painful to do the cleanup and preserve earlier contributions behind you. Jyoti ( talk) 14:47, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Diff link. Actual mention of historic information is removed and recent allegation is introduced under 'History' section by Edmondhills -- Jyoti ( talk) 02:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Diff link of Edmondhills. These are the three references used: 1, 2, 3. Here are my objections.
-- Jyoti ( talk) 03:11, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
While I see the current lead is absolutely fine backed with references please, do not insert information about the Abhinav Bharat Society started by Vinayak Damodar Savarkar on the leaad however such information may be helpful for Abhinav Bharat Society article. Abhinav Bharat is different from Abhinav Bharat Society as Abhinav Bharat Society is a defunct organization after independence. Edmondhills ( talk) 08:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Vanamonde93: diff, with edit summary: "the source is terribly written, and most of the info is redundant". Do you mean to say the two references are not written nicely? Yes there is some trimming possible, rest should be salvaged. -- AmritasyaPutra T 11:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
A few points:
Cheers, Kautilya3 ( talk) 15:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
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Abhinav Bharat is a right wing Hindu Revolutionary organization founded by Retired Major of Indian Army Ramesh Upadhyay [1] [2] and Lt. Col. Prasad Shrikant Purohit [3] in 2006 in Pune, Maharashtra. It has a large base in Madhya Pradesh. The organization is believed to be the revived form the pre-Independence era Abhinav Bharat Society Kumar88.ram ( talk) 09:58, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
Is it not famous for terrorism? https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/hindu-rashtra-saffron-terrors-hall-of-shame-78870-2010-07-18 Zikrullah ( talk) 09:44, 7 October 2019 (UTC)