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If the government really did orchestrate these attacks, how did they get Osama bin Laden to take responsibility for the 9/11 attacks? Bin Laden doesn't just claim responsibility for everything. He disputed that Al Queda was responsible for the London bombings in 2005 and he did not claim responsibility for anything that convicted terrorists not involved in his 9/11 hand-picked terrorists say. What is one good reason why Osama would take responsibility for these attacks if they were not orchestrated by him?
Steel manufacturer Corus Group (formerly British Steel) conducted tests on unprotected steel beems in an office fire. Despite temperatures of unprotected steel beams being in excess of 1100°C, there was no collapse [54]. A total of 7 tests were carried out between 1994 and 2003 on a 8-storey composite building with metal deck floors at a test facility in Cardington. There are no reports of any structural collapses during the tests [55].
I read the cited articles, and they don't seem to say anything specifically about the WTC.
Do we have a source that cites these studies in relation to 9/11? Otherwise it is Original research.-- DCAnderson 23:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
See here: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/fire/SCI.htm TurboForce 13:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
There are many references to the Corus study in relation to 9/11 on http://911research.wtc7.net/ Search the site for the word Corus and you'll see for yourself. The mention of these fire tests ought to be included in the main article - where it was before being removed. TurboForce 13:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have now updated this section with the cited source above. Have also mentioned that the fires were blamed for the collapse of the twin towers, but the 7 fire tests conducted on the steel structure by Corus never produced any collapses.
Okay okay, I hope to prove the Corus tests aren't original research. TurboForce 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
911research.net is only a reliable source for what its operator thinks.
Tom Harrison
Talk
14:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I guess it would be okay as long as it says something like "According to 911research.net, the Corus study is indicative of..."-- DCAnderson 17:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
SO WHY DO YOU KEEP DELETING IT WHEN THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CORUS STUDY HAS AN EXTERNAL SOURCE OF INFORMATION?!!!!!!!!!!!!. TurboForce 21:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
If you truly knew what the meaing of the term "adiabatic" is, you would realise that this is
a best case FLAME temperature in absolutely ideal conditions, with no heat loss, perfect fuel/air mixture etc, which is NOT the case in the WTC fires. It has to do with the energy released during the bonding of the fuel with oxygen, and the amount of energy needed to heat the resulting products (ie CO2 etc). In normal building fires, air temperatures do not reach anywhere near this, normally only briefly breaking 1000 C at flashover in very hot fires. Moreover, as mentioned, this is the temperature of the flame, NOT the temperature of any solid objects being affected by the flame: These objects, especially steel frameworks akin to a giant heatsinks, take a long time and a large amount of heat energy input to reach anywhere near the maximum flame temperature.-- Diablomonic 08:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I see plenty of evidence around that shows the temperature of the fires in the twin towers could not have been anywhere near that high. Examples:
I think the Corus fire tests are a good example of what could be put into the main page. Researchers say that the fires melted or softened the steel which brought down the twin towers and maybe WTC building 7; the Corus fire tests show steel structures do not collapse when exposed to fire. Source:
Quote from that page:
"despite atmosphere temperatures of almost 1200°C and steel temperatures on the unprotected beams in excess of 1100°C in the worst cases, no structural collapse took place."
When you say kerosene fuel Jet-A burns at 1727°C, is that with pressurisation? Where did you get that figure 1727°C from? -- TurboForce 21:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned above: adiabatic temperature (that 1700 C value) is a best case perfect scenario temperature of the flames, with a perfect fuel air mix, and no heat loss. Basically take all the energy released by the reaction of the fuel with oxygen, and use ALL that heat energy to heat ONLY the fuel, oxygen, and other 70% of the air associated with that amount of oxygen. If too much fuel or too much oxygen is present, then some of that energy is wasted heating that useless excess matter. As you can see, if that energy is also being "drained" by a giant steel heatsink.. well 1000 tonnes of concrete and steel per floor takes a lot more energy to heat than just the air and fuel mixture. The only thing I should note is that while the conditions in the tower where nowhere near ideal flame conditions (eg see the black smoke indictaing excess fuel/lack of oxygen), preheating of the air without lowering its oxygen content can raise this temperature. (ie unburnt preheated air, not hot exhaust from a previous flame)-- Diablomonic 08:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
On page 5 of 8 in the .pdf file your link points to it says "Flames billowed out the windows…the tower uses a structural steel skin…the flame was licking that skin, so the steel melted."
So why didn't we see the steel melting? If the steel was that hot, it would be glowing red-hot and be clearly visible glowing, even in daylight. Source:
A heating element (for example) glows when it gets red-hot, any very hot metal object does. The glowing is clearly visible in daylight, even at temperatures below 1000°C. The fires in the towers did not cause significant window breakage, this would happen at temperatures above 600°C. Source:
None of the towers were burning for many hours and both collapsed, other high-rise fires (like the examples in the main article) have burned for much longer, show brighter flames gutting whole floors and none of them totally collapsed.
TurboForce 12:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DECIDE if I can put the Corus study in the main article under the section 4.1 Controlled-demolition theory next to the comparision to other high-rise fires? It would be ideal to compare the Corus tests to the comparisions of other high rise fires and how steel behaves in building fires.
TurboForce 16:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I have a question: What types of steel beams were used in this? I-beams? What type of loads were placed on the beams in the study?
To answer you question, you can see the Corus fire tests here:
TurboForce 19:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The author of the book Facing our Fascist State mentions the Corus fire tests, the book is mentioned here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/resources/books/
TurboForce 19:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Based on the pictures on the Corus fire tests, I can only conclude that they have no merit in regards to the WTC. Take a look at the last picture on this site:
The support is what looks like lateral steel I-beams. These are heavy-duty beams set up in square patterns. That was not how the WTC was built at all. They used lighter weight steel trusses. I just need to find a picture to show you what I mean (obviously, you disregard the NIST report, though for no good reason), but those types of steel beams were NOT used to support the floors in WTC.
That's actually irrelevant.
The above photo was taken after the office demonstration test fire at Cardington. It demonstrates that the thermal expansion of the beams/trusses was accommodated by downward deflection, not by the forcing of the exterior walls away from the core (axial expansion) as claimed by FEMA and NIST. There was also no failure of the end connections. Even though the beams could only contribute as catenary tension members (the beams were reduced to 3 or 4% of their room temperature strength), the concrete floors supplied strength to the structural system by membrane action and no collapse occurred. The beams/trusses were not fire protected. Here is a summary of features of the office demonstration test fire at Cardington. DrObjektiv 15:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Have we decided whether the Corus fire tests will make it into the main article? References can be made to the Corus study on http://911research.wtc7.net/ for example on this page of that site: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/fire/cardington.htm
There are other pages about the Corus study on the 911research site. I have skipped through that page (link above), but have not read it fully. Skipping through, I have discovered that in all tests there were no structural collapses. TurboForce 23:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for 9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 10 has failed, for the following reason:
9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 10 Alvin6226 talk 01:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The main page is far too long, is tagged as such, and breaking the main headings into sub pages is clearly long overdue. Taking the main impact sites, WTC, Pentagon, Flight 93 site, combined with wargames, and foreknowledge, seems a sensible preliminary division. I propose the following and invite comments. Timharwoodx 09:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is foreknowledge treated here as a "theory"? There is ample evidence to suggest it is factual. -- Laikalynx 20:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page?? -- 71.36.251.182 17:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page? -- 71.36.251.182 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page?? -- 71.36.251.182 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE make the proposal before making such a drastic change in an article that so many of us have been trying to get right through so many disagreements and compromises. We are getting around to deciding on what splits to make if you care to read the discussion above. SkeenaR 09:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Its a prod to get you all to sort it. The main page is absurdly long. I don't see the need for Foreknowledge, Pentagon, WTC, and Flight 93, Wargames, sub pages, really needs much thought. The wargames page already exists, so you are duplicating content on the main page, in that respect. I've done lots of work on various WIKIs, and I've never had any queries about my chops of overly long pages before. You take the main headings, on which a concensus already exists, and split it out that way. Its not difficult. Get on with it. Timharwoodx 09:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
98 kilobytes is an absurd page size, and vastly exceeds the Wikipedia:Article_size guidelines, which give 20-32 kilobytes as the range to begin to consider subdivision. So logically, following the WIKI rules, AT LEAST 3 sub pages are required, and possibly 5. I don't understand why there has to be so much discussion about something, that is just the application of standing WIKI style guidelines. If this was any other topic than 9/11, it would have been done MONTHS ago. Whats the problem here, exactly? Timharwoodx 10:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your gonna get a query or two now. Guaranteed. I agree that this thing should be split up a bit, but it's kind of a zoo here, and unless it's done with some foresight it will turn into more of a chaos than it already is. Thanks for the prod, but since you have been so bold in attempting to instigate this, perhaps you should stick around and take part in this wonderful progress. As to your last query, you could start by doing some reading. SkeenaR 10:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, there's gotta be stubs of course, and don't forget all the new afd's that are going to happen. How many do we want to deal with all at once. It doesn't have to instantly be broken into six pieces. You know what I mean. SkeenaR 10:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be one article, here, and the various sections reduced in size, with a plethora of pointers to conspiracy theory pages outside of Wikipedia. These are marginal claims with little substance and much speculation. In many cases the claims have been thoroughly refuted.-- Cberlet 13:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Oddly enough I have to commend Tim for being bold with his edits, and combatting what was essentially a great amount of heel dragging going on on this page. Though the only real split I can agree with is the controlled demolition one. The rest I don't think quite justify their own articles. The last time I checked, the page was 66 KBS with the stff abot the WTC taken out, which is a generally accepted length for an article.-- DCAnderson 14:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The suggestions by Timharwoodx and MisterHand make the most sense to me. After all, the article is already in sections. It's pretty standard (at least for a librarian) to assign full-page status to these sections, which have all developed in their own right (e.g. 9/11 Conspiracy Theories: Government Foreknowledge), and leave their introductory one-paragraph stubs on the main page with a cross-reference to the new page. Let's split the work up. I'll do the Government Foreknowledge, and perhaps others will volunteer to do the other sections?-- PureLogic 22:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/us/05conspiracy.html http://www.911revealingthetruth.org/
CB Brooklyn 03:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This information should be placed into the main article:
According to the Muckraker Report, Rex Tomb, the Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, has said on June 5, 2006: “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
It's amazing how so many just can't see it.
the FBI does not consider the video hard evidence. The only rational explanation is that they know the tape is not bin Laden. If you haven't already, take a look here
It's not headline news for the same reason every other 9/11 Truth issue isn't: The MSM is controlled.
Whether or not it would help find bin Laden is not the point. The point is that the FBI did not put 9/11 on bin Laden's poster. They have no hard evidence, yet many Whitehouse officials said they knew it was him. We bombed Afghanistan under the assumption the video was real.
THE FBI says they have no hard evidence. Looking at the video, it is obviously not bin Laden.
On what basis can anyone say otherwise? Where is the reasoning supporting that line of thinking?
CB Brooklyn 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Good idea... posting in a blog is better than here. As for your other comment... America was built on questioning the government. I accuse them of mass murder because of the overwhelming evidence, mainly the controlled demolitions of the Twin Towers and WTC 7.
CB Brooklyn
04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Only the higher ups would be in the need-to-know. That does not include fighter pilots, the FDNY or NYPD, but does include some of the others you mentioned. Still... saying it's absurd does not explain all the anomalies in the government's version. (Many of those anomalies contradict the government's version, making their version a conspiracy theory.)
CB Brooklyn
04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Would intercepted communications fall under the hard evidence monkier? Back to the matter at hand if you can get another link or transcript of Mr. Tomb's remark I would think we could put this under "Other Points of Interest" for now. In the long run since the article is being split up I think we might need a page just for people who question the official story but do not offer any specific alternative theory. 02:06, 7 June 2006 (Ed Kollin)
Please, unless you're specifically discussing an improvement to this article, please keep it off the talk page. Thank you.-- DCAnderson 21:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted "It is unclear exactly what warnings he is thought to have received" because the statement itself is unclear. Does it convey any specific verifiable facts? The next sentence says, "Mr. Schippers has said the information dated back to a 1995 warning that indicated a possible terrorist attack planned for lower Manhattan using a nuclear device." Mr. Schippers may be a nut case, or his informants imaginary or wrong, but that sentence does say, with a fair amount of exactitude, what warnings he is thought to have received.
O Govinda 19:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
all 9/11 wiki editors should watch this 150MB video. CB Brooklyn 12:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but assume that wiki editors will judge it for themselves. SkeenaR 15:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians: I split this off to a new page because of the long article notice. The new page is 9/11 Jewish conspiracy. It is unchanged. The section on this page is jsut an abbreviated section, with fewer points and support (because otherwise, why split it off?) Scoutersig 03:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Will you people stop trying to split the article? because of that we lost a lot of info from the article itself. And there are certain people who will not allow it. ILovePlankton 15:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Before splitting sections off, is there anything that anyone can see that can be deleted because either it is:
or
?-- DCAnderson 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay.....anticipating debate over these.
-- Mmx1 01:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section on Griffin's view on whistleblowers, because I don't think we need 3 paragraphs devoted to one person's musings without citing any other opinions.-- DCAnderson 18:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
This should be placed in the main article as well. [18] CB Brooklyn 01:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Theorists allege that Jeb Bush's executive order reflected foreknowledge of 9/11. In response, we have a statement from his assistant general counsel, Mr. Woodring, saying Mr. Bush had "taken . . . steps to deal with this terror attack."
I see two problems here.
First, the external link for Mr. Woodring's statement seems to lead to the wrong place: a transcription from a session of the 9/11 Commission where (unless I missed it, which of course is possible) his statement isn't mentioned.
Second, following the footnotes shows that Mr. Bush signed his executive order on 7 September, several days before the terror attack. That the order was a response to the attack therefore makes no sense.
For this second problem, I see two solutions: either (1) delete Mr. Woodring's statement or (2) add a sentence pointing out the contradiction.
Any suggestions from more experienced Wikipedians?
O Govinda 14:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Upon further consideration, I think we could safely ditch the whole "Florida Martial Law" thing because it doesn't seem we have any reliable sources who support it, it seems to be a long dead internet rumor, and it doesn't add very much to an allrerady bloated article.-- DCAnderson 17:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's try and keep this an easy going affair, it's easier on everybody. I'm not aware of the details on this matter, but did the alleged changes to law enact greater powers for the police forces or military to engage in action involving civilians? If that is truly the case it shouldn't be hard to find a source. That fact would be conspiracy theory fuel which also shouldn't be hard to find a source for if the allegation is true. If this is the case, then I think it probably qualifies for the article. If it's not the case, then it probably should be ditched. SkeenaR 09:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Reliable sources are easy to come by, I needed some 5 minutes to find them. There are two relevant Executive Orders (as quoted in a RICO complaint by WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ: http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/RodriguezComplaint.htm):
The first one (01/261) from 7/11/01 replaces a former, almost identical one: http://sun6.dms.state.fl.us/eog_new/eog/orders/2001/january/eo2001-17-01-19-01.html (01/17), adding a new section 3. which mentions an "act of terrorism": "Based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port, the necessity to protect life and property from such acts of terrorism ...". The previous version of this Executive Order (01/17) does not contain such references to an "act of terrorism". This has been cited as "intriguing, and circumstantial proof of Enterprise foreknowledge of the 9-11 attacks" in the RICO complaint (point 126.) , see http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/RodriguezComplaint7.htm
The other Executive Order (01/262) is from 9/11/01, and is a declaration of a state of emergency in the State of Florida, delegating the "authority to suspend the effect of any statute or rule governing the conduct of state business" to the Interim Director of the Division of Emergency Management.
Rkrichbaum 15:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Well if we attribute it Rodriguez I suppose it is fine, provided Rodriguez is notable. Who is Rodriguez? Is he notable among conspiracy theorists? Is his case ever going to see the light of day?
Do you guys think this theory is notable? Do you view it as an important part of 9/11 conspiracy theory?-- DCAnderson 00:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have heard it mentioned by conspiracy theorists lots of times. SkeenaR 00:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
To find out who Rodriguez is you need even less than 5 minutes: http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/Rodriguez.htm, Picture with a president and some with Hillary: http://www.911forthetruth.com/William%27s%20pics/index.html. Notable for sure, although I personally don't know what to make of these Executive Orders. One thing is that Florida is the only state where a state of emergency was declared on 9/11, as far as I know. If this is not true, it should be mentioned so as to refute the conspiracists' claim that it was somehow unusual. Rkrichbaum 00:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe if someone finds a link that might explain just what the hell actually is going on with the hijackers and their id's we can clear this up for everybody. I'm a bit confused about the issue right now, but at least we are sourced. SkeenaR 01:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A very good place to start is http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewforum.php?23 - be prepared to spend hours and hours to wade through the references, though ... :-) I could not bring myself to read everything yet. An interesting aspect not yet mentioned in the Wiki article is the inconsistency of news reports which in some cases suggests the existence of doubles. Many researchers have pointed this out. Rkrichbaum 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. SkeenaR 04:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We don't need three cites for criticisms of the commision report and a demand for proof that alternatives to the official explanation are criticized by journalists and scientists. That is glaringly obvious. The previous version of the intro describes the situation properly and accurately and almost everyone here agrees on that. This has been discussed at great length. SkeenaR 16:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the term "researchers" is used too loosely on this and the other conspiracy theorist pages. What exactly is a "researcher"? Is it anyone, including laymen, who cobble-together uneducated theories? What does one have to be to be a "researcher"? Isn't a researcher someone who has some expertise in the particular area being researched, and therefore can make a thoughtful and objective analysis of that which he researches. A "researcher" is not someone out to advocate on behalf of a particular theory, such as the conspiracy theories presented here, but someone who has an objective mindset. As such, persons such as Hoffman, Jones, et al. don't qualify. Morton devonshire 08:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed a source from the section regarding conspiracy theories about Jews which quoted a passage from www.jewsdidwtc.com, a ludicrously anti-Semitic website sponsored and maintained solely by the Gay Nigger Association of America, a ring of internet trolls whose main goal is essentially to be as offensive as the venues of the internet allow. I assume I'm not alone in thinking that we should find another source for the quotations in that section, and that, as the GNAA's web site is an extremely inappropriate reference for this project, it's better left as a fact tag than linking to that site. JDoorj a m Talk 04:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
If there was a mention of Pentagon financial shenanigans and WTC insurance policies here, I missed it. These are big, and need to be part of the article. Also, Thermite theories have plenty of evidence that could be expounded on here. -- 71.36.251.182 17:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
James Fetzer of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" has posted a lament at their Web site (see:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesWikipedia.html
--about being unable to include their own information about themselves at Wikipedia's entry for them (see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholars_for_9/11_Truth
I think the discussion section for that entry is quite revealing about what's going on (see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scholars_for_9/11_Truth
In American English, the term conspiracy theory is perjorative. Since all theories of 9/11 are conspiracied, including the official story, perhaps we should change the title of this article to "Alternative 9/11 Theories".
TruthSeeker1234 04:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
You've been taking lessons haven't you?. Please check your discussion conventions. SkeenaR 08:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This has been gone over many times TruthSeeker. There is a problem. The policy states that titles must be neutral. Wikipedia says that the term Conspiracy theory is pejorative. Still, all of the claims regarding 9/11 involve conspiracy theories. It's kind of a conundrum. SkeenaR 09:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article Conspiracy theory we can read this paragraph:
So there are negative implications in the term according to the "most widely accepted sense of the term". The question is over whether "Conspiracy Theory" is a term intended to be used as a perjorative or whether it is an official term for describing a certain kind of theory. The term "Conspiracy theories" is generally used by debunkers who contest the theories while the "researchers" who support the theories never use it, they use the term "skepitcism".
This topic has been fiercely debated since the page was created. There was a vote on this when this page was first created
[21] and since the term does not show up on
Words to avoid the consensus thus far has been that it is an acceptable term for use on this page.
Some arguments against the title:
-- Pokipsy76 08:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the article title is fair. These are theories of conspiracy. The official government theory is also a theory of a conspiracy. And this article mentions that in the second paragraph. It is a fair and accuarate title. Seabhcán 14:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with user Pokipsy76. Most of the skeptics would not characterize themselves as "conspiracy theorists". They may speculate on alternatives to the official version, or rather some aspects of it, but this does not often amount to a complete "theory" of the events. Most of the critics point out inaccuracies, inconsistencies or holes in the official version.
When media persons and others label them "conspiracy theorists" it is always meant to denigrate skeptics. It is also used to lump all criticisms together and thus render an inaccurate impression of unity and uniformity that doesn't exist. There are vast differences between many of them, they come from all kinds of political persuasions and do not necessarily reach the same conclusions - except one: an independent investigation of the attacks. This hardly constitutes a "theory", let alone a "conspiracy theory". Of course, there are conspiracy theories out there, their proponents are known and can be described. I see no problem to include a paragraph exlusively dedicated to conspiracy theories in the context of 9/11 skepticism. But it is important to note that they do not necessarily dominate the discussion among skeptics, which the current article title clearly implies. Rkrichbaum 16:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly agree that the title should be changed. That the subject has already been discussed is a weak argument: when exactly has it been discussed? For example, in 2003 i was sure that these were all "conspiracy theories". Today, after seeing all evidence coming out, I honestly am no longer sure. Massimamanno
I also agree the title ought to change. Conspiracy theories is perjorative, and doesn't distinguish such theories from the theory put forward by the US government of an al Qaeda conspiracy. "Alternative theories" is neutral and differentiates the content from the official government account. Perhaps a vote is in order. Damburger 10:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is increasingly living up to its name (see the "origins" section, for example). In a sense, it is short for "accounts of the 9/11 attacks commonly denounced/derided/described as conspiracy theories". The information in this article is interesting for people who are interested precisely in "9/11 conspiracy theories". The only way any of this information will ever become "neutral" or accurately labeled in non-pejorative terms is in so far as it becomes part of the official story. In that unlikely event, it should be moved into the main articles on 9/11, WTC, etc.-- Thomas Basboll 14:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
New article (actually four days old).
In this video, Professor Jones explains that the results are still preliminary, and that more (time intensive) testing needs to be done. But he does say the evidence "fits like a glove". CB Brooklyn 01:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like some more eyes on the Steven E. Jones article; in its current form it reads too much like a soapbox for Jones's theories, and I am currently having a dispute with another editor regarding inferences made on the article. -- Mmx1 02:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It should also be included in the main article.
Published by Elsevier, one of the TOP publishers.
CB Brooklyn 16:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm new to wikipedia, so I thought I'd give and get some opinions before jumping in and changing anything:
Additions: Under prior knowledge, I would like to point out two videos, currently available on youtube.
rogue elements in the US government/millitary/millitary industrial complex, mainly millitary contractors, remotely take over an airliner and attempt to fly it into a WTC tower, for the purpose of boosting millitary spending. In the last seconds the pilot regains control and skims the roof of the tower. Strangely enough it was supposed to have been seen by over 10 million viewers, and yet is rarely mentioned in the mainstream media
Personally I see this as one of two things: A warning by someone with foreknowledge, or a red herring by an insider. As a warning its purpose is obvious. As to why I consider it a red herring: mainly because it minimises blame, and because of its source (FOX entertainment) (although obviously a mainstream TV show wont normally go around accusing large portions of the current government of conspiracy, so Im not certain either way)
Under Government Inquiry
"conducted a three year $24 million investigation" I would like to add something along the lines of the following (but more concise):
"Critics of this study point out that, in comparison, over $40 million was spent investigating Bill Clintons sex life (or insert other multi million dollar investigation into (relatively) smaller matter here), whereas 9/11 is considered the largest ever attack on US soil/failure of US intelligence/procedures, and recieved only 2$4 million, that even this was only provided after much public pressure, and after most of the evidence had been destroyed (*). They also point out that The report does not model the actual collapse itself, nor does it include the undamaged floors below the impact zones in its models, satisfying itself by only modeling up to the point where the buidings where about to collapse. Hence it does not explain any of the features of the collapse seemingly inconsistant with a gravity driven collapse." see here for some details : http://www.911review.com/coverup/nist.html
(*) claims that most of the evidence was not destroyed are rediculous: Not only was this a terrorist attack of unprecedented size, It was also an unprecedented failure of 3 steel highrise buildings due to fire, and a multiple aircraft aviation disaster, each of which deserved massive investigation by themself!. In normal airliner crashes, investigators painstakingly find every possible piece of a plane and piece it back together, and NOTHING is disturbed untill it has been thouroughly documented and photographed, yet in the case of the WTC's, "A total of 236 recovered pieces of WTC steel were cataloged; the great majority belonging to the towers, WTC 1 and WTC 2. These samples represented a quarter to half a percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the construction of the two towers" (not to mention tower 7). Would you normally be satisfied with an investigation where 99.75-99.5% of the physical evidence was destroyed before photographic evidence of it was taken or testing on it could be done? http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3Draft.pdf
I am also unsure why the following line is included under Gocernment Inquiry: "Critics question Jones' credibility on the subject by pointing out that he does not have a structural engineering background." Is this relevant? No claim was made that he DID have such a qualification, it is already specifically pointed out that he is a physics professor not an engineer, so why is this ad hominem attack needed? Of course critics point out his alleged lack of credentials. When they cant refute the arguments what else can they do?
Under "The Debris"
"Physicist Steven E. Jones has pointed out that these molten metal observations cannot be known to be steel without a metallurgical analysis being done."
Addition: He also, very importantly, pointed out that from the colour of the metal being pulled out (bright yellow) its temperature was in excess of 1000 deg C, ruling out aluminium (which would be molten at 600 C), and strongly suggesting that it was infact steel, but more importantly; this temperature is hotter than should have been possible from normal fires alone. (this can be read in his paper "why indeed did the WTC buildings collapse")
Another Question: why is the NY firefighter and the TRAC volunteer refered to as "two men" rather than "NY firefighter Nicholas DeMasi and TRAC volunteer member Mike Bellone"? especially since this information is in the documents listed? should we refer to NIST's report as "some guys report"?
Im also concerned by the wording "Alleged recent chemical analysis of recovered molten metal". Perhaps "preliminary independant analyisis of recovered molten metal" would be better. Is someone disputing that the analysis is taking place? Even "Preliminary independant analysis of alleged recovered molten metal" would be a little better, but unless you have some evidence/good reasons for believing it is not a legitimate sample, then even this is unneccessary.
Next: "They also say witnesses specifically describe seeing explosions or the result of explosions before the planes hit the towers, during the evacuation, and immediately prior to the collapse of the towers" This should be
"Many Witnesses describe seeing, hearing and feeling what initially appeared to them to be explosions, before the planes hit the towers, during the evacuation, mmediately prior to, and during the collapse of the towers. Many (some? there are quite a few) initially thought they where witnessing a controlled demolition"
I have read numerous statements by witnesses (firefighters etc) backing this up, as shown below, and have also seen news footage talking about the explosions, and heard what seems to be the sounds of the explosions on footage of the collapse (see 9/11 eyewitness, the camera across the water, there appears to be a huge rumbling explosion about 10 seconds prior to the collapse).
Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.) "Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building. " (emphasis mine) http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html etc etc
Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8] "It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other". Note I left the end speculatory comment in, even though his initial opinion of what it looked like was a timed explosion.
Under Motives: I would like to add the following:
"Claims have been made that large amounts of gold and silver bullion went missing from the gold repository underneath WTC 4. There were unverified rumours of up to 160 billion in precious metals stored there prior to 9/11(*), although more realistic estimates put the amount a little under a billion. There are also claims that some of this was found abandoned loaded in trucks under the WTC, though this seems to be based on a misreading of the initial news story. Officially the gold was recovered in its entirety; an amount of around 250 million dollars worth."
(*) I realise that this is not well backed up, however this IS a conspiracy theory explanation page, and this IS part of the conspiracy theorists alleged motives for 9/11. I have unsuccesfully tried to find accurate figures for the amount of gold down there, and although not entirely successfull, it certainly seems to be quite a bit more than 200 million. (eg just one of the banks claimed they had around 200 millions worth worth down there, yet there where quite a few banks using the vault). see here: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html
other motives: "It is also claimed that the attacks where used to allow the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq for various reasons:
Anyway, thats enough for now (lots more to go though), got other things to do, be back again later. Let me know what you think. Personally, I think this article is full of POV statements/wording and seems almost deliberately laid out to minimise the impact of the more important claims/discourage people from understanding the real issues. Example:
"The rubble of the Twin Towers smoldered for weeks after the collapse. [47]
* This claim is meant to point out that steel could only have smoldered as a result of pre-placed explosives."
This is a strawman argument, in what is supposed to be a NPOV resource on these theories! The problem is not that it smoldered, it is that there was "dripping metal steel", according to various members of the cleanup team, and this could not have come from the heat sources (normal fire) officially present. Stating that it was the smouldering that was out of place right at the start of this section immediately makes this claim/section appear ludicrous, encouraging casual readers to skip over the section where it explains the actual problem.
I have tried to word my possible additions in as non POV way as possible, but a little of my bias may have slipped through.-- Diablomonic 12:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Also just noticed, why is no mention made of the lack of interception of 4 hijacked planes for nearly an hour in each case? It is known that NORAD had "67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001", thats more than one per week, yet they didnt feel that the situation on 9/11 was worth scrambling for until too late? I find this COMPLETELY ridiculous and find it hard to believe anyone accepts this.
and another one under motives: the day before 9/11, "Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announces that by some estimates the Department of Defense 'cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.' CBS later calculates that 25% of the yearly defense budget is unaccounted for. A defense analyst says, 'The books are cooked routinely year after year.'"
This was buried in the news of 9/11, and is thought by conspiracy theorists to be deliberate: eg www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-up10pg -- Diablomonic 12:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of the specific editing changes have some validity but as a newbie you are making one elementary mistake throughout this presentation. Most of this comes under the guise of Original Research which is the ultimate Wikipedia no no. Basically you are gathering facts and leading the readers to a conclusion. The idea here is to cite “credible” sources who have gathered the facts and stated theories that are different from the “official story” or more specifically the 9/11 commission report. The Lone Gunman episode was in the “Other Points of Interest” section for a long time but was taken out because no source connected it to a conspiracy theory. If you find a source that states this episode as some sort of warning put in the article and cite it. If as you state it is your personal theory then absolutely no way does it belong in the article. Go step by step through all the “facts” you stated and try and find sources and proceed with the above in mind. And thanks for asking before doing anything. 00:35, 26 June 2006 (Ed Kollin)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
If the government really did orchestrate these attacks, how did they get Osama bin Laden to take responsibility for the 9/11 attacks? Bin Laden doesn't just claim responsibility for everything. He disputed that Al Queda was responsible for the London bombings in 2005 and he did not claim responsibility for anything that convicted terrorists not involved in his 9/11 hand-picked terrorists say. What is one good reason why Osama would take responsibility for these attacks if they were not orchestrated by him?
Steel manufacturer Corus Group (formerly British Steel) conducted tests on unprotected steel beems in an office fire. Despite temperatures of unprotected steel beams being in excess of 1100°C, there was no collapse [54]. A total of 7 tests were carried out between 1994 and 2003 on a 8-storey composite building with metal deck floors at a test facility in Cardington. There are no reports of any structural collapses during the tests [55].
I read the cited articles, and they don't seem to say anything specifically about the WTC.
Do we have a source that cites these studies in relation to 9/11? Otherwise it is Original research.-- DCAnderson 23:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
See here: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/fire/SCI.htm TurboForce 13:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
There are many references to the Corus study in relation to 9/11 on http://911research.wtc7.net/ Search the site for the word Corus and you'll see for yourself. The mention of these fire tests ought to be included in the main article - where it was before being removed. TurboForce 13:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I have now updated this section with the cited source above. Have also mentioned that the fires were blamed for the collapse of the twin towers, but the 7 fire tests conducted on the steel structure by Corus never produced any collapses.
Okay okay, I hope to prove the Corus tests aren't original research. TurboForce 12:29, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
911research.net is only a reliable source for what its operator thinks.
Tom Harrison
Talk
14:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I guess it would be okay as long as it says something like "According to 911research.net, the Corus study is indicative of..."-- DCAnderson 17:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
SO WHY DO YOU KEEP DELETING IT WHEN THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CORUS STUDY HAS AN EXTERNAL SOURCE OF INFORMATION?!!!!!!!!!!!!. TurboForce 21:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
If you truly knew what the meaing of the term "adiabatic" is, you would realise that this is
a best case FLAME temperature in absolutely ideal conditions, with no heat loss, perfect fuel/air mixture etc, which is NOT the case in the WTC fires. It has to do with the energy released during the bonding of the fuel with oxygen, and the amount of energy needed to heat the resulting products (ie CO2 etc). In normal building fires, air temperatures do not reach anywhere near this, normally only briefly breaking 1000 C at flashover in very hot fires. Moreover, as mentioned, this is the temperature of the flame, NOT the temperature of any solid objects being affected by the flame: These objects, especially steel frameworks akin to a giant heatsinks, take a long time and a large amount of heat energy input to reach anywhere near the maximum flame temperature.-- Diablomonic 08:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I see plenty of evidence around that shows the temperature of the fires in the twin towers could not have been anywhere near that high. Examples:
I think the Corus fire tests are a good example of what could be put into the main page. Researchers say that the fires melted or softened the steel which brought down the twin towers and maybe WTC building 7; the Corus fire tests show steel structures do not collapse when exposed to fire. Source:
Quote from that page:
"despite atmosphere temperatures of almost 1200°C and steel temperatures on the unprotected beams in excess of 1100°C in the worst cases, no structural collapse took place."
When you say kerosene fuel Jet-A burns at 1727°C, is that with pressurisation? Where did you get that figure 1727°C from? -- TurboForce 21:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
As mentioned above: adiabatic temperature (that 1700 C value) is a best case perfect scenario temperature of the flames, with a perfect fuel air mix, and no heat loss. Basically take all the energy released by the reaction of the fuel with oxygen, and use ALL that heat energy to heat ONLY the fuel, oxygen, and other 70% of the air associated with that amount of oxygen. If too much fuel or too much oxygen is present, then some of that energy is wasted heating that useless excess matter. As you can see, if that energy is also being "drained" by a giant steel heatsink.. well 1000 tonnes of concrete and steel per floor takes a lot more energy to heat than just the air and fuel mixture. The only thing I should note is that while the conditions in the tower where nowhere near ideal flame conditions (eg see the black smoke indictaing excess fuel/lack of oxygen), preheating of the air without lowering its oxygen content can raise this temperature. (ie unburnt preheated air, not hot exhaust from a previous flame)-- Diablomonic 08:17, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
On page 5 of 8 in the .pdf file your link points to it says "Flames billowed out the windows…the tower uses a structural steel skin…the flame was licking that skin, so the steel melted."
So why didn't we see the steel melting? If the steel was that hot, it would be glowing red-hot and be clearly visible glowing, even in daylight. Source:
A heating element (for example) glows when it gets red-hot, any very hot metal object does. The glowing is clearly visible in daylight, even at temperatures below 1000°C. The fires in the towers did not cause significant window breakage, this would happen at temperatures above 600°C. Source:
None of the towers were burning for many hours and both collapsed, other high-rise fires (like the examples in the main article) have burned for much longer, show brighter flames gutting whole floors and none of them totally collapsed.
TurboForce 12:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE DECIDE if I can put the Corus study in the main article under the section 4.1 Controlled-demolition theory next to the comparision to other high-rise fires? It would be ideal to compare the Corus tests to the comparisions of other high rise fires and how steel behaves in building fires.
TurboForce 16:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I have a question: What types of steel beams were used in this? I-beams? What type of loads were placed on the beams in the study?
To answer you question, you can see the Corus fire tests here:
TurboForce 19:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The author of the book Facing our Fascist State mentions the Corus fire tests, the book is mentioned here:
http://911research.wtc7.net/resources/books/
TurboForce 19:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Based on the pictures on the Corus fire tests, I can only conclude that they have no merit in regards to the WTC. Take a look at the last picture on this site:
The support is what looks like lateral steel I-beams. These are heavy-duty beams set up in square patterns. That was not how the WTC was built at all. They used lighter weight steel trusses. I just need to find a picture to show you what I mean (obviously, you disregard the NIST report, though for no good reason), but those types of steel beams were NOT used to support the floors in WTC.
That's actually irrelevant.
The above photo was taken after the office demonstration test fire at Cardington. It demonstrates that the thermal expansion of the beams/trusses was accommodated by downward deflection, not by the forcing of the exterior walls away from the core (axial expansion) as claimed by FEMA and NIST. There was also no failure of the end connections. Even though the beams could only contribute as catenary tension members (the beams were reduced to 3 or 4% of their room temperature strength), the concrete floors supplied strength to the structural system by membrane action and no collapse occurred. The beams/trusses were not fire protected. Here is a summary of features of the office demonstration test fire at Cardington. DrObjektiv 15:46, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Have we decided whether the Corus fire tests will make it into the main article? References can be made to the Corus study on http://911research.wtc7.net/ for example on this page of that site: http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/fire/cardington.htm
There are other pages about the Corus study on the 911research site. I have skipped through that page (link above), but have not read it fully. Skipping through, I have discovered that in all tests there were no structural collapses. TurboForce 23:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The Good article nomination for 9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 10 has failed, for the following reason:
9/11 conspiracy theories/Archive 10 Alvin6226 talk 01:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The main page is far too long, is tagged as such, and breaking the main headings into sub pages is clearly long overdue. Taking the main impact sites, WTC, Pentagon, Flight 93 site, combined with wargames, and foreknowledge, seems a sensible preliminary division. I propose the following and invite comments. Timharwoodx 09:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is foreknowledge treated here as a "theory"? There is ample evidence to suggest it is factual. -- Laikalynx 20:10, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page?? -- 71.36.251.182 17:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page? -- 71.36.251.182 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What happened to this page?? -- 71.36.251.182 17:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
PLEASE make the proposal before making such a drastic change in an article that so many of us have been trying to get right through so many disagreements and compromises. We are getting around to deciding on what splits to make if you care to read the discussion above. SkeenaR 09:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Its a prod to get you all to sort it. The main page is absurdly long. I don't see the need for Foreknowledge, Pentagon, WTC, and Flight 93, Wargames, sub pages, really needs much thought. The wargames page already exists, so you are duplicating content on the main page, in that respect. I've done lots of work on various WIKIs, and I've never had any queries about my chops of overly long pages before. You take the main headings, on which a concensus already exists, and split it out that way. Its not difficult. Get on with it. Timharwoodx 09:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
98 kilobytes is an absurd page size, and vastly exceeds the Wikipedia:Article_size guidelines, which give 20-32 kilobytes as the range to begin to consider subdivision. So logically, following the WIKI rules, AT LEAST 3 sub pages are required, and possibly 5. I don't understand why there has to be so much discussion about something, that is just the application of standing WIKI style guidelines. If this was any other topic than 9/11, it would have been done MONTHS ago. Whats the problem here, exactly? Timharwoodx 10:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your gonna get a query or two now. Guaranteed. I agree that this thing should be split up a bit, but it's kind of a zoo here, and unless it's done with some foresight it will turn into more of a chaos than it already is. Thanks for the prod, but since you have been so bold in attempting to instigate this, perhaps you should stick around and take part in this wonderful progress. As to your last query, you could start by doing some reading. SkeenaR 10:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, there's gotta be stubs of course, and don't forget all the new afd's that are going to happen. How many do we want to deal with all at once. It doesn't have to instantly be broken into six pieces. You know what I mean. SkeenaR 10:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I think there should be one article, here, and the various sections reduced in size, with a plethora of pointers to conspiracy theory pages outside of Wikipedia. These are marginal claims with little substance and much speculation. In many cases the claims have been thoroughly refuted.-- Cberlet 13:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Oddly enough I have to commend Tim for being bold with his edits, and combatting what was essentially a great amount of heel dragging going on on this page. Though the only real split I can agree with is the controlled demolition one. The rest I don't think quite justify their own articles. The last time I checked, the page was 66 KBS with the stff abot the WTC taken out, which is a generally accepted length for an article.-- DCAnderson 14:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The suggestions by Timharwoodx and MisterHand make the most sense to me. After all, the article is already in sections. It's pretty standard (at least for a librarian) to assign full-page status to these sections, which have all developed in their own right (e.g. 9/11 Conspiracy Theories: Government Foreknowledge), and leave their introductory one-paragraph stubs on the main page with a cross-reference to the new page. Let's split the work up. I'll do the Government Foreknowledge, and perhaps others will volunteer to do the other sections?-- PureLogic 22:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/us/05conspiracy.html http://www.911revealingthetruth.org/
CB Brooklyn 03:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
This information should be placed into the main article:
According to the Muckraker Report, Rex Tomb, the Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI, has said on June 5, 2006: “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”
It's amazing how so many just can't see it.
the FBI does not consider the video hard evidence. The only rational explanation is that they know the tape is not bin Laden. If you haven't already, take a look here
It's not headline news for the same reason every other 9/11 Truth issue isn't: The MSM is controlled.
Whether or not it would help find bin Laden is not the point. The point is that the FBI did not put 9/11 on bin Laden's poster. They have no hard evidence, yet many Whitehouse officials said they knew it was him. We bombed Afghanistan under the assumption the video was real.
THE FBI says they have no hard evidence. Looking at the video, it is obviously not bin Laden.
On what basis can anyone say otherwise? Where is the reasoning supporting that line of thinking?
CB Brooklyn 21:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Good idea... posting in a blog is better than here. As for your other comment... America was built on questioning the government. I accuse them of mass murder because of the overwhelming evidence, mainly the controlled demolitions of the Twin Towers and WTC 7.
CB Brooklyn
04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Only the higher ups would be in the need-to-know. That does not include fighter pilots, the FDNY or NYPD, but does include some of the others you mentioned. Still... saying it's absurd does not explain all the anomalies in the government's version. (Many of those anomalies contradict the government's version, making their version a conspiracy theory.)
CB Brooklyn
04:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Would intercepted communications fall under the hard evidence monkier? Back to the matter at hand if you can get another link or transcript of Mr. Tomb's remark I would think we could put this under "Other Points of Interest" for now. In the long run since the article is being split up I think we might need a page just for people who question the official story but do not offer any specific alternative theory. 02:06, 7 June 2006 (Ed Kollin)
Please, unless you're specifically discussing an improvement to this article, please keep it off the talk page. Thank you.-- DCAnderson 21:52, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I have deleted "It is unclear exactly what warnings he is thought to have received" because the statement itself is unclear. Does it convey any specific verifiable facts? The next sentence says, "Mr. Schippers has said the information dated back to a 1995 warning that indicated a possible terrorist attack planned for lower Manhattan using a nuclear device." Mr. Schippers may be a nut case, or his informants imaginary or wrong, but that sentence does say, with a fair amount of exactitude, what warnings he is thought to have received.
O Govinda 19:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
all 9/11 wiki editors should watch this 150MB video. CB Brooklyn 12:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but assume that wiki editors will judge it for themselves. SkeenaR 15:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Fellow Wikipedians: I split this off to a new page because of the long article notice. The new page is 9/11 Jewish conspiracy. It is unchanged. The section on this page is jsut an abbreviated section, with fewer points and support (because otherwise, why split it off?) Scoutersig 03:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Will you people stop trying to split the article? because of that we lost a lot of info from the article itself. And there are certain people who will not allow it. ILovePlankton 15:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Before splitting sections off, is there anything that anyone can see that can be deleted because either it is:
or
?-- DCAnderson 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay.....anticipating debate over these.
-- Mmx1 01:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the section on Griffin's view on whistleblowers, because I don't think we need 3 paragraphs devoted to one person's musings without citing any other opinions.-- DCAnderson 18:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
This should be placed in the main article as well. [18] CB Brooklyn 01:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Theorists allege that Jeb Bush's executive order reflected foreknowledge of 9/11. In response, we have a statement from his assistant general counsel, Mr. Woodring, saying Mr. Bush had "taken . . . steps to deal with this terror attack."
I see two problems here.
First, the external link for Mr. Woodring's statement seems to lead to the wrong place: a transcription from a session of the 9/11 Commission where (unless I missed it, which of course is possible) his statement isn't mentioned.
Second, following the footnotes shows that Mr. Bush signed his executive order on 7 September, several days before the terror attack. That the order was a response to the attack therefore makes no sense.
For this second problem, I see two solutions: either (1) delete Mr. Woodring's statement or (2) add a sentence pointing out the contradiction.
Any suggestions from more experienced Wikipedians?
O Govinda 14:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Upon further consideration, I think we could safely ditch the whole "Florida Martial Law" thing because it doesn't seem we have any reliable sources who support it, it seems to be a long dead internet rumor, and it doesn't add very much to an allrerady bloated article.-- DCAnderson 17:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's try and keep this an easy going affair, it's easier on everybody. I'm not aware of the details on this matter, but did the alleged changes to law enact greater powers for the police forces or military to engage in action involving civilians? If that is truly the case it shouldn't be hard to find a source. That fact would be conspiracy theory fuel which also shouldn't be hard to find a source for if the allegation is true. If this is the case, then I think it probably qualifies for the article. If it's not the case, then it probably should be ditched. SkeenaR 09:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Reliable sources are easy to come by, I needed some 5 minutes to find them. There are two relevant Executive Orders (as quoted in a RICO complaint by WILLIAM RODRIGUEZ: http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/RodriguezComplaint.htm):
The first one (01/261) from 7/11/01 replaces a former, almost identical one: http://sun6.dms.state.fl.us/eog_new/eog/orders/2001/january/eo2001-17-01-19-01.html (01/17), adding a new section 3. which mentions an "act of terrorism": "Based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port, the necessity to protect life and property from such acts of terrorism ...". The previous version of this Executive Order (01/17) does not contain such references to an "act of terrorism". This has been cited as "intriguing, and circumstantial proof of Enterprise foreknowledge of the 9-11 attacks" in the RICO complaint (point 126.) , see http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/RodriguezComplaint7.htm
The other Executive Order (01/262) is from 9/11/01, and is a declaration of a state of emergency in the State of Florida, delegating the "authority to suspend the effect of any statute or rule governing the conduct of state business" to the Interim Director of the Division of Emergency Management.
Rkrichbaum 15:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Well if we attribute it Rodriguez I suppose it is fine, provided Rodriguez is notable. Who is Rodriguez? Is he notable among conspiracy theorists? Is his case ever going to see the light of day?
Do you guys think this theory is notable? Do you view it as an important part of 9/11 conspiracy theory?-- DCAnderson 00:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I have heard it mentioned by conspiracy theorists lots of times. SkeenaR 00:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
To find out who Rodriguez is you need even less than 5 minutes: http://www.911forthetruth.com/pages/Rodriguez.htm, Picture with a president and some with Hillary: http://www.911forthetruth.com/William%27s%20pics/index.html. Notable for sure, although I personally don't know what to make of these Executive Orders. One thing is that Florida is the only state where a state of emergency was declared on 9/11, as far as I know. If this is not true, it should be mentioned so as to refute the conspiracists' claim that it was somehow unusual. Rkrichbaum 00:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe if someone finds a link that might explain just what the hell actually is going on with the hijackers and their id's we can clear this up for everybody. I'm a bit confused about the issue right now, but at least we are sourced. SkeenaR 01:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A very good place to start is http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewforum.php?23 - be prepared to spend hours and hours to wade through the references, though ... :-) I could not bring myself to read everything yet. An interesting aspect not yet mentioned in the Wiki article is the inconsistency of news reports which in some cases suggests the existence of doubles. Many researchers have pointed this out. Rkrichbaum 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. SkeenaR 04:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
We don't need three cites for criticisms of the commision report and a demand for proof that alternatives to the official explanation are criticized by journalists and scientists. That is glaringly obvious. The previous version of the intro describes the situation properly and accurately and almost everyone here agrees on that. This has been discussed at great length. SkeenaR 16:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the term "researchers" is used too loosely on this and the other conspiracy theorist pages. What exactly is a "researcher"? Is it anyone, including laymen, who cobble-together uneducated theories? What does one have to be to be a "researcher"? Isn't a researcher someone who has some expertise in the particular area being researched, and therefore can make a thoughtful and objective analysis of that which he researches. A "researcher" is not someone out to advocate on behalf of a particular theory, such as the conspiracy theories presented here, but someone who has an objective mindset. As such, persons such as Hoffman, Jones, et al. don't qualify. Morton devonshire 08:04, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed a source from the section regarding conspiracy theories about Jews which quoted a passage from www.jewsdidwtc.com, a ludicrously anti-Semitic website sponsored and maintained solely by the Gay Nigger Association of America, a ring of internet trolls whose main goal is essentially to be as offensive as the venues of the internet allow. I assume I'm not alone in thinking that we should find another source for the quotations in that section, and that, as the GNAA's web site is an extremely inappropriate reference for this project, it's better left as a fact tag than linking to that site. JDoorj a m Talk 04:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
If there was a mention of Pentagon financial shenanigans and WTC insurance policies here, I missed it. These are big, and need to be part of the article. Also, Thermite theories have plenty of evidence that could be expounded on here. -- 71.36.251.182 17:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
James Fetzer of "Scholars for 9/11 Truth" has posted a lament at their Web site (see:
http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ArticlesWikipedia.html
--about being unable to include their own information about themselves at Wikipedia's entry for them (see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholars_for_9/11_Truth
I think the discussion section for that entry is quite revealing about what's going on (see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Scholars_for_9/11_Truth
In American English, the term conspiracy theory is perjorative. Since all theories of 9/11 are conspiracied, including the official story, perhaps we should change the title of this article to "Alternative 9/11 Theories".
TruthSeeker1234 04:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
You've been taking lessons haven't you?. Please check your discussion conventions. SkeenaR 08:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
This has been gone over many times TruthSeeker. There is a problem. The policy states that titles must be neutral. Wikipedia says that the term Conspiracy theory is pejorative. Still, all of the claims regarding 9/11 involve conspiracy theories. It's kind of a conundrum. SkeenaR 09:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
In the article Conspiracy theory we can read this paragraph:
So there are negative implications in the term according to the "most widely accepted sense of the term". The question is over whether "Conspiracy Theory" is a term intended to be used as a perjorative or whether it is an official term for describing a certain kind of theory. The term "Conspiracy theories" is generally used by debunkers who contest the theories while the "researchers" who support the theories never use it, they use the term "skepitcism".
This topic has been fiercely debated since the page was created. There was a vote on this when this page was first created
[21] and since the term does not show up on
Words to avoid the consensus thus far has been that it is an acceptable term for use on this page.
Some arguments against the title:
-- Pokipsy76 08:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the article title is fair. These are theories of conspiracy. The official government theory is also a theory of a conspiracy. And this article mentions that in the second paragraph. It is a fair and accuarate title. Seabhcán 14:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with user Pokipsy76. Most of the skeptics would not characterize themselves as "conspiracy theorists". They may speculate on alternatives to the official version, or rather some aspects of it, but this does not often amount to a complete "theory" of the events. Most of the critics point out inaccuracies, inconsistencies or holes in the official version.
When media persons and others label them "conspiracy theorists" it is always meant to denigrate skeptics. It is also used to lump all criticisms together and thus render an inaccurate impression of unity and uniformity that doesn't exist. There are vast differences between many of them, they come from all kinds of political persuasions and do not necessarily reach the same conclusions - except one: an independent investigation of the attacks. This hardly constitutes a "theory", let alone a "conspiracy theory". Of course, there are conspiracy theories out there, their proponents are known and can be described. I see no problem to include a paragraph exlusively dedicated to conspiracy theories in the context of 9/11 skepticism. But it is important to note that they do not necessarily dominate the discussion among skeptics, which the current article title clearly implies. Rkrichbaum 16:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I strongly agree that the title should be changed. That the subject has already been discussed is a weak argument: when exactly has it been discussed? For example, in 2003 i was sure that these were all "conspiracy theories". Today, after seeing all evidence coming out, I honestly am no longer sure. Massimamanno
I also agree the title ought to change. Conspiracy theories is perjorative, and doesn't distinguish such theories from the theory put forward by the US government of an al Qaeda conspiracy. "Alternative theories" is neutral and differentiates the content from the official government account. Perhaps a vote is in order. Damburger 10:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The article is increasingly living up to its name (see the "origins" section, for example). In a sense, it is short for "accounts of the 9/11 attacks commonly denounced/derided/described as conspiracy theories". The information in this article is interesting for people who are interested precisely in "9/11 conspiracy theories". The only way any of this information will ever become "neutral" or accurately labeled in non-pejorative terms is in so far as it becomes part of the official story. In that unlikely event, it should be moved into the main articles on 9/11, WTC, etc.-- Thomas Basboll 14:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
New article (actually four days old).
In this video, Professor Jones explains that the results are still preliminary, and that more (time intensive) testing needs to be done. But he does say the evidence "fits like a glove". CB Brooklyn 01:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like some more eyes on the Steven E. Jones article; in its current form it reads too much like a soapbox for Jones's theories, and I am currently having a dispute with another editor regarding inferences made on the article. -- Mmx1 02:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
It should also be included in the main article.
Published by Elsevier, one of the TOP publishers.
CB Brooklyn 16:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi all, I'm new to wikipedia, so I thought I'd give and get some opinions before jumping in and changing anything:
Additions: Under prior knowledge, I would like to point out two videos, currently available on youtube.
rogue elements in the US government/millitary/millitary industrial complex, mainly millitary contractors, remotely take over an airliner and attempt to fly it into a WTC tower, for the purpose of boosting millitary spending. In the last seconds the pilot regains control and skims the roof of the tower. Strangely enough it was supposed to have been seen by over 10 million viewers, and yet is rarely mentioned in the mainstream media
Personally I see this as one of two things: A warning by someone with foreknowledge, or a red herring by an insider. As a warning its purpose is obvious. As to why I consider it a red herring: mainly because it minimises blame, and because of its source (FOX entertainment) (although obviously a mainstream TV show wont normally go around accusing large portions of the current government of conspiracy, so Im not certain either way)
Under Government Inquiry
"conducted a three year $24 million investigation" I would like to add something along the lines of the following (but more concise):
"Critics of this study point out that, in comparison, over $40 million was spent investigating Bill Clintons sex life (or insert other multi million dollar investigation into (relatively) smaller matter here), whereas 9/11 is considered the largest ever attack on US soil/failure of US intelligence/procedures, and recieved only 2$4 million, that even this was only provided after much public pressure, and after most of the evidence had been destroyed (*). They also point out that The report does not model the actual collapse itself, nor does it include the undamaged floors below the impact zones in its models, satisfying itself by only modeling up to the point where the buidings where about to collapse. Hence it does not explain any of the features of the collapse seemingly inconsistant with a gravity driven collapse." see here for some details : http://www.911review.com/coverup/nist.html
(*) claims that most of the evidence was not destroyed are rediculous: Not only was this a terrorist attack of unprecedented size, It was also an unprecedented failure of 3 steel highrise buildings due to fire, and a multiple aircraft aviation disaster, each of which deserved massive investigation by themself!. In normal airliner crashes, investigators painstakingly find every possible piece of a plane and piece it back together, and NOTHING is disturbed untill it has been thouroughly documented and photographed, yet in the case of the WTC's, "A total of 236 recovered pieces of WTC steel were cataloged; the great majority belonging to the towers, WTC 1 and WTC 2. These samples represented a quarter to half a percent of the 200,000 tons of structural steel used in the construction of the two towers" (not to mention tower 7). Would you normally be satisfied with an investigation where 99.75-99.5% of the physical evidence was destroyed before photographic evidence of it was taken or testing on it could be done? http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3Draft.pdf
I am also unsure why the following line is included under Gocernment Inquiry: "Critics question Jones' credibility on the subject by pointing out that he does not have a structural engineering background." Is this relevant? No claim was made that he DID have such a qualification, it is already specifically pointed out that he is a physics professor not an engineer, so why is this ad hominem attack needed? Of course critics point out his alleged lack of credentials. When they cant refute the arguments what else can they do?
Under "The Debris"
"Physicist Steven E. Jones has pointed out that these molten metal observations cannot be known to be steel without a metallurgical analysis being done."
Addition: He also, very importantly, pointed out that from the colour of the metal being pulled out (bright yellow) its temperature was in excess of 1000 deg C, ruling out aluminium (which would be molten at 600 C), and strongly suggesting that it was infact steel, but more importantly; this temperature is hotter than should have been possible from normal fires alone. (this can be read in his paper "why indeed did the WTC buildings collapse")
Another Question: why is the NY firefighter and the TRAC volunteer refered to as "two men" rather than "NY firefighter Nicholas DeMasi and TRAC volunteer member Mike Bellone"? especially since this information is in the documents listed? should we refer to NIST's report as "some guys report"?
Im also concerned by the wording "Alleged recent chemical analysis of recovered molten metal". Perhaps "preliminary independant analyisis of recovered molten metal" would be better. Is someone disputing that the analysis is taking place? Even "Preliminary independant analysis of alleged recovered molten metal" would be a little better, but unless you have some evidence/good reasons for believing it is not a legitimate sample, then even this is unneccessary.
Next: "They also say witnesses specifically describe seeing explosions or the result of explosions before the planes hit the towers, during the evacuation, and immediately prior to the collapse of the towers" This should be
"Many Witnesses describe seeing, hearing and feeling what initially appeared to them to be explosions, before the planes hit the towers, during the evacuation, mmediately prior to, and during the collapse of the towers. Many (some? there are quite a few) initially thought they where witnessing a controlled demolition"
I have read numerous statements by witnesses (firefighters etc) backing this up, as shown below, and have also seen news footage talking about the explosions, and heard what seems to be the sounds of the explosions on footage of the collapse (see 9/11 eyewitness, the camera across the water, there appears to be a huge rumbling explosion about 10 seconds prior to the collapse).
Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.) "Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building. " (emphasis mine) http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/explosions.html etc etc
Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8] "It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other". Note I left the end speculatory comment in, even though his initial opinion of what it looked like was a timed explosion.
Under Motives: I would like to add the following:
"Claims have been made that large amounts of gold and silver bullion went missing from the gold repository underneath WTC 4. There were unverified rumours of up to 160 billion in precious metals stored there prior to 9/11(*), although more realistic estimates put the amount a little under a billion. There are also claims that some of this was found abandoned loaded in trucks under the WTC, though this seems to be based on a misreading of the initial news story. Officially the gold was recovered in its entirety; an amount of around 250 million dollars worth."
(*) I realise that this is not well backed up, however this IS a conspiracy theory explanation page, and this IS part of the conspiracy theorists alleged motives for 9/11. I have unsuccesfully tried to find accurate figures for the amount of gold down there, and although not entirely successfull, it certainly seems to be quite a bit more than 200 million. (eg just one of the banks claimed they had around 200 millions worth worth down there, yet there where quite a few banks using the vault). see here: http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html
other motives: "It is also claimed that the attacks where used to allow the US to invade Afghanistan and Iraq for various reasons:
Anyway, thats enough for now (lots more to go though), got other things to do, be back again later. Let me know what you think. Personally, I think this article is full of POV statements/wording and seems almost deliberately laid out to minimise the impact of the more important claims/discourage people from understanding the real issues. Example:
"The rubble of the Twin Towers smoldered for weeks after the collapse. [47]
* This claim is meant to point out that steel could only have smoldered as a result of pre-placed explosives."
This is a strawman argument, in what is supposed to be a NPOV resource on these theories! The problem is not that it smoldered, it is that there was "dripping metal steel", according to various members of the cleanup team, and this could not have come from the heat sources (normal fire) officially present. Stating that it was the smouldering that was out of place right at the start of this section immediately makes this claim/section appear ludicrous, encouraging casual readers to skip over the section where it explains the actual problem.
I have tried to word my possible additions in as non POV way as possible, but a little of my bias may have slipped through.-- Diablomonic 12:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Also just noticed, why is no mention made of the lack of interception of 4 hijacked planes for nearly an hour in each case? It is known that NORAD had "67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001", thats more than one per week, yet they didnt feel that the situation on 9/11 was worth scrambling for until too late? I find this COMPLETELY ridiculous and find it hard to believe anyone accepts this.
and another one under motives: the day before 9/11, "Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announces that by some estimates the Department of Defense 'cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.' CBS later calculates that 25% of the yearly defense budget is unaccounted for. A defense analyst says, 'The books are cooked routinely year after year.'"
This was buried in the news of 9/11, and is thought by conspiracy theorists to be deliberate: eg www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-up10pg -- Diablomonic 12:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Some of the specific editing changes have some validity but as a newbie you are making one elementary mistake throughout this presentation. Most of this comes under the guise of Original Research which is the ultimate Wikipedia no no. Basically you are gathering facts and leading the readers to a conclusion. The idea here is to cite “credible” sources who have gathered the facts and stated theories that are different from the “official story” or more specifically the 9/11 commission report. The Lone Gunman episode was in the “Other Points of Interest” section for a long time but was taken out because no source connected it to a conspiracy theory. If you find a source that states this episode as some sort of warning put in the article and cite it. If as you state it is your personal theory then absolutely no way does it belong in the article. Go step by step through all the “facts” you stated and try and find sources and proceed with the above in mind. And thanks for asking before doing anything. 00:35, 26 June 2006 (Ed Kollin)