This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
7th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
You may wish to take Grey 2008 to Military_history_of_Australia_during_the_Vietnam_War where they have drawn a different conclusion from sources of a similar time era, and characterise the dispute there as being firmly resolved on the side of the debate as Ming begging the US to let him be silly mid off on the Vietnamese wicket. Fifelfoo ( talk) 11:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
No mention of loosing Mech? The RAR page already states 5 and 7 have begun to re-role AJAussie ( talk) 12:40, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Needs an update. Very little information on deployments after returning to order of battle. Compared to 5 RAR page it this one is poor. I'll update and bring it more in line with the other layout. AJAussie ( talk) 12:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Gday - I recently reverted a number of changes added by a new editor - User:7RAR, pls see here [1]. Whilst I completely agree that this page is in need of being updated, and a lot of the information recently inserted could be used in this process; however, rather than just deleting what is already there and copying the whole new draft across I think we need to make to merge the two together more carefully. Specifically, there were a few issues I saw with the new draft, including:
@ 7RAR: - Thank you for taking the time to help with updating this page, we certainly need more editors that are prepared to work on these pages. Unfortunately Wikipedia has a lot of rules which can sometimes take a new editor a while to learn so I'd be quite happy to assist you with updating this page and with explaining any questions you have regarding wiki policy and formatting as you do so. That said I ask that you take a care in doing so and acquaint yourself with the relevant guidelines as well. In the meantime, although I have reverted your additions I will probably re-add some of the material you have provided where appropriate if I can find citations to support it. Regards. Anotherclown ( talk) 01:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Anotherclown/Babitaarora reverted my edits to '7th Battalion, the Roy Australian Regiment' citing that I had not even read revisions made by another editor. I shall address that: 1. Deletion of referenced information: there was very little/no deletion of existing information. There was some change of order which you would prevent you from seeing this if you clicked 'difference between revisions'. Some information was replaced because it was out of date/no longer relevant.
2. Undue weight being placed on recent operations. You will notice that: -Vietnam first tour contained 581 words. -Vietnam second tour contained 494 words. -RTF-1 contained contained 424 words. -MRTF-1 contained contained 629 words. -ATF-1 contained contained 171 words. -ATF-2 and Kabul contained 215 words. This demonstrates that the spread of operational commentary is fairly even, and leans towards less information relating to the most recent operations. It should be noted that the information pertaining to ATF 1&2 is very limited in the civilian sphere; not even held by the Australian War Memorial.
3. Addition of non-free images that will likely be deleted as they don't comply. Most of the images involved in the article were released by the Australian Department of Defence for Media use; the rest were previously available on Wikipedia or taken by members of the 7th Bn who release the images for public use.
4. A large amount of unreferenced text being added. I'll approach this in two parts: 4a. I can only see the following paragraphs without citations MRTF-1 Operations (this information was gained from the same reference as MRTF-1 Para, don't see a need to quote it twice) ATF-2 (There is very little written about this deployment, none on the internet or at the War Memorial. The information gained was through interview of 7RAR pers who were present. ADF Social Media policy indicates that Defence members cannot identify themselves on Social Media, nor would I want to identify them.) SIB/current composition (No civilian interest was apparent when 7 RAR transitioned to SIB. The information was gained first hand be people who were there last year) Hierarchy (This list is maintained current absolutely nowhere in print and cannot be referenced. Instead; I challenge anybody to disprove it.) Graham Cornes Football match (an initiative taken last year by LTCOL Wells, it has received nil media attention. There is nothing anywhere to reference to it either in print or digitally, except the picture of it occurring.) KIA (This list was transcribed from the honour roll displayed at 7RAR's barracks in Horseshoe Lines, Adelaide. I have subsequently revised this and included a reference.)
5. Lists of soldiers killed in action which is probably not appropriate per WP:NOTMEMORIAL There is no attempt to memorialize the list of 7 RAR members who died on operations; simply a list. It does not say 'in respect of' or 'lest we forget' or anything except that they were killed in action. The intent in future is to investigate each of these members and provide information regarding their background, service and manner of death. The leadership of 7RAR was canvassed IRT listing the Bn's KIA and overwhelmingly agreed that it was appropriate and in good taste, as I'm sure the families of the deceased would agree.
6. Quite a lot of "trivia" has been included (i.e. various dining in nights, football matches etc.) these really should not be included per WP:TRIVIA. This 'trivia' is included under the heading 'Regimental Artifacts and Traditions'. Yes; it is a list. It is an important list that defines factors of a the Bn's culture and identity; it is not trivia and should not be presented in another way.
Approximately 6,300 words of new information was presented in this revision, updating the article from about 2006 to 2015. It is the work of the Officers of the 7th Battalion. I may be new to Wiki Formatting etc (FYI this interface is extremely prohibitive and counter to Wikimedia's objectives). I do not believe that this knowledge, derived from subject matter experts, holds no value to Wikipedia and the world. I believe that the information should be left as posted. If people wish to add more information, or references become available in future, they can add them. I'm sure there are a lot of 'amateurish' Wikipedia edits out there that present new information. It should be up to the community to improve the presentation of the information; not to suppress it.
I'm going to re-edit the page with a few minor mods as per your suggestions. I noted that you could not have read the article in the time it took between posting and revert. I implore you to look at more than the comparison tool as it is misleading due to the change in order (which is why I wanted to restart the article initially). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7RAR ( talk • contribs) 12:33, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
References
I've been looking for public information on ATF 1 and have so far found the following.
There are a couple news article on ANZAC Day 2013 as well. AJAussie ( talk) 05:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
7th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
You may wish to take Grey 2008 to Military_history_of_Australia_during_the_Vietnam_War where they have drawn a different conclusion from sources of a similar time era, and characterise the dispute there as being firmly resolved on the side of the debate as Ming begging the US to let him be silly mid off on the Vietnamese wicket. Fifelfoo ( talk) 11:30, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
No mention of loosing Mech? The RAR page already states 5 and 7 have begun to re-role AJAussie ( talk) 12:40, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Needs an update. Very little information on deployments after returning to order of battle. Compared to 5 RAR page it this one is poor. I'll update and bring it more in line with the other layout. AJAussie ( talk) 12:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Gday - I recently reverted a number of changes added by a new editor - User:7RAR, pls see here [1]. Whilst I completely agree that this page is in need of being updated, and a lot of the information recently inserted could be used in this process; however, rather than just deleting what is already there and copying the whole new draft across I think we need to make to merge the two together more carefully. Specifically, there were a few issues I saw with the new draft, including:
@ 7RAR: - Thank you for taking the time to help with updating this page, we certainly need more editors that are prepared to work on these pages. Unfortunately Wikipedia has a lot of rules which can sometimes take a new editor a while to learn so I'd be quite happy to assist you with updating this page and with explaining any questions you have regarding wiki policy and formatting as you do so. That said I ask that you take a care in doing so and acquaint yourself with the relevant guidelines as well. In the meantime, although I have reverted your additions I will probably re-add some of the material you have provided where appropriate if I can find citations to support it. Regards. Anotherclown ( talk) 01:50, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Anotherclown/Babitaarora reverted my edits to '7th Battalion, the Roy Australian Regiment' citing that I had not even read revisions made by another editor. I shall address that: 1. Deletion of referenced information: there was very little/no deletion of existing information. There was some change of order which you would prevent you from seeing this if you clicked 'difference between revisions'. Some information was replaced because it was out of date/no longer relevant.
2. Undue weight being placed on recent operations. You will notice that: -Vietnam first tour contained 581 words. -Vietnam second tour contained 494 words. -RTF-1 contained contained 424 words. -MRTF-1 contained contained 629 words. -ATF-1 contained contained 171 words. -ATF-2 and Kabul contained 215 words. This demonstrates that the spread of operational commentary is fairly even, and leans towards less information relating to the most recent operations. It should be noted that the information pertaining to ATF 1&2 is very limited in the civilian sphere; not even held by the Australian War Memorial.
3. Addition of non-free images that will likely be deleted as they don't comply. Most of the images involved in the article were released by the Australian Department of Defence for Media use; the rest were previously available on Wikipedia or taken by members of the 7th Bn who release the images for public use.
4. A large amount of unreferenced text being added. I'll approach this in two parts: 4a. I can only see the following paragraphs without citations MRTF-1 Operations (this information was gained from the same reference as MRTF-1 Para, don't see a need to quote it twice) ATF-2 (There is very little written about this deployment, none on the internet or at the War Memorial. The information gained was through interview of 7RAR pers who were present. ADF Social Media policy indicates that Defence members cannot identify themselves on Social Media, nor would I want to identify them.) SIB/current composition (No civilian interest was apparent when 7 RAR transitioned to SIB. The information was gained first hand be people who were there last year) Hierarchy (This list is maintained current absolutely nowhere in print and cannot be referenced. Instead; I challenge anybody to disprove it.) Graham Cornes Football match (an initiative taken last year by LTCOL Wells, it has received nil media attention. There is nothing anywhere to reference to it either in print or digitally, except the picture of it occurring.) KIA (This list was transcribed from the honour roll displayed at 7RAR's barracks in Horseshoe Lines, Adelaide. I have subsequently revised this and included a reference.)
5. Lists of soldiers killed in action which is probably not appropriate per WP:NOTMEMORIAL There is no attempt to memorialize the list of 7 RAR members who died on operations; simply a list. It does not say 'in respect of' or 'lest we forget' or anything except that they were killed in action. The intent in future is to investigate each of these members and provide information regarding their background, service and manner of death. The leadership of 7RAR was canvassed IRT listing the Bn's KIA and overwhelmingly agreed that it was appropriate and in good taste, as I'm sure the families of the deceased would agree.
6. Quite a lot of "trivia" has been included (i.e. various dining in nights, football matches etc.) these really should not be included per WP:TRIVIA. This 'trivia' is included under the heading 'Regimental Artifacts and Traditions'. Yes; it is a list. It is an important list that defines factors of a the Bn's culture and identity; it is not trivia and should not be presented in another way.
Approximately 6,300 words of new information was presented in this revision, updating the article from about 2006 to 2015. It is the work of the Officers of the 7th Battalion. I may be new to Wiki Formatting etc (FYI this interface is extremely prohibitive and counter to Wikimedia's objectives). I do not believe that this knowledge, derived from subject matter experts, holds no value to Wikipedia and the world. I believe that the information should be left as posted. If people wish to add more information, or references become available in future, they can add them. I'm sure there are a lot of 'amateurish' Wikipedia edits out there that present new information. It should be up to the community to improve the presentation of the information; not to suppress it.
I'm going to re-edit the page with a few minor mods as per your suggestions. I noted that you could not have read the article in the time it took between posting and revert. I implore you to look at more than the comparison tool as it is misleading due to the change in order (which is why I wanted to restart the article initially). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7RAR ( talk • contribs) 12:33, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
References
I've been looking for public information on ATF 1 and have so far found the following.
There are a couple news article on ANZAC Day 2013 as well. AJAussie ( talk) 05:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)