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![]() | On 15 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel to 7 October attacks. The result of the discussion was moved. |
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I believe a more fitting title for this article would be "The October 7th Attack" being that it's much more rememberable and easy to say. JamesCook1728 ( talk) 01:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
So, very willing to have Wiki rules thrown at me on this;
Why are we still describing this as an “attack”? By the vast and overwhelming sources already cited in this article, it’s very clear that, where “attack” might imply some sort of targeted assault by one armed group against other, this is not what happened.
Given that this historical parallel doesn’t work, the closest I can think of is the roaming Einsatzgruppen, whose methods of murder were utterly terrible but also less terrible than the Palestinians responsible in this article.
“Attack” suggests that this was some sort of properly co-ordinated military operation. We know from every article sub-linked here that this was not the acse. it was from the start intended to be a massacre of civilians. There was no point anywhere in the planning of it in which anyone said that “this should not be a massacre of civilians.” And why would they? The whole point was to murder, rape and kidnap as many civilians as possible. KronosAlight ( talk) 21:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
suggest that this was some sort of properly co-ordinated military operation" because "attack" also covers a chaotic "terrorist attack" and "attacks" covers hundreds of lone wolves individualy attacking people. The only plausible alternatives would be uprising / revolt but I don't think they'll get support? " 7 October" is the most common name, but we need to add something because that's in use for "on this day", adding "attacks" is the broadest and least biased option. MWQs ( talk) 23:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 June 2024. |
The result of the move request was: Moved to 7 October attacks. There was clear consensus to move away from the current title as the date was found to be an important part of the WP:COMMONNAME. The arguments opposing the move largely relied on the idea of another attack on 7 October 2024 which was demmed WP:CRYSTALBALL by the discussion. No prejudice against another discussion between the original proposoed title and 7 October attacks. ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 14:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel – I believe that enough time has passed since the last RM (which proposed the simpler "7 October attacks" name and closed with consensus to retain the current title) to re-propose a title change for this article. I believe that "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" is the WP:COMMONNAME for this event, as seen in sources such as:
Many sources simply say "7 October" or "October 7 attacks" instead of spelling out the full name, but I believe that while "7 October attacks" could be a more COMMON name, I think that it fails WP:AT#Precision in favor of "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel." DecafPotato ( talk) 00:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
hamas attack on israel, the majority of recent sources prominently include the date, sometimes just to set the scene but more often as a descriptive common name. First page of results from this month (
october 7not included as search term):
This date is not meaningful to the average English speaking reader. Especially when "Hamas-led attack on Israel" remains in the title, there should be no concern that readers won't know what we're talking about. However, I am not sure whether the move target should be 7 October or October 7. The local date format is, in fact, "7 October", but the English-language sources provided by the nom above show that reliable sources lean towards "October 7". Toadspike [Talk] 11:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
“Genocide experts” who? Please clarify NeutralASP ( talk) 10:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate. —
kashmīrī
TALK
16:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 June 2024. |
I thought that the request move was to change the article from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, not to 7 October attacks. It appears that the article has been unilaterally moved to a different title all together. I would have been less inclined to support the move had I known. User:Extorc, why did you move it to a different title all together? There has been other notable attacks on the date 7 October in the region such as the 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which occurred on the 7 October. That's why I supported a move to the title 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel as it was specific about which attack on the 7 October. IJA ( talk) 18:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Have a look at the first sentence in the "Events leading to the attack" section:
Over the course of 2023, before the attack, increased settler attacks had displaced hundreds of Palestinians, and there were clashes around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, a contested holy site in Jerusalem. [1]
1. Displaced whom exactly? Is there a citation for this?
2. "Settler attacks"? Are we going to completely ignore the numerous attacks by Palestinians throughout 2023? Just to name a few:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-palestinians-strikes-jihad-0d9d56b5c4fc2e8999105b05c8d30a2f
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-april-7-2023/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/05/world/middleeast/palestinian-shooting-israel-tel-aviv.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/19/two-israelis-killed-by-suspected-palestinian-gunman 3. Maybe explain why there were clashes near Temple Mount?
Here is my proposal:
In the months leading up to the attack, Palestinian violence against Israelis escalated significantly, including hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza towards Israeli cities, as well as numerous shooting and car-ramming attacks that resulted in multiple Israeli fatalities.
Citations:
2A0D:6FC2:4000:400:97EC:26:BBEC:F991 ( talk) 12:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
We cannot have the result say 'inconclusive or Hamas victory'; that is in direct violation of the rules regarding a military info-box. I’m not even trying to be political, but it does not make sense to say, 'well, you see, Hamas either won or didn’t win, we don’t know.' I keep saying this: an info-box can only say X Victory, Y Victory, or inconclusive. LuxembourgLover ( talk) 17:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
In the article, the People of Hamas are defined as fighters. This definition is wrong. The right definition is: terrorists. If we define these monsters as fighters, their actions may be considered as legitimate, and I consider it as an immoral concept. 147.235.194.173 ( talk) 05:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
This is the
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7 October attacks article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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1,
2,
3,
4,
5,
6,
7Auto-archiving period: 30 days
![]() |
![]() | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
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Wikipedia is not censored. Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Wikipedia's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options for not seeing an image. |
![]() | On 15 June 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel to 7 October attacks. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Frequently asked questions
|
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
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I believe a more fitting title for this article would be "The October 7th Attack" being that it's much more rememberable and easy to say. JamesCook1728 ( talk) 01:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
So, very willing to have Wiki rules thrown at me on this;
Why are we still describing this as an “attack”? By the vast and overwhelming sources already cited in this article, it’s very clear that, where “attack” might imply some sort of targeted assault by one armed group against other, this is not what happened.
Given that this historical parallel doesn’t work, the closest I can think of is the roaming Einsatzgruppen, whose methods of murder were utterly terrible but also less terrible than the Palestinians responsible in this article.
“Attack” suggests that this was some sort of properly co-ordinated military operation. We know from every article sub-linked here that this was not the acse. it was from the start intended to be a massacre of civilians. There was no point anywhere in the planning of it in which anyone said that “this should not be a massacre of civilians.” And why would they? The whole point was to murder, rape and kidnap as many civilians as possible. KronosAlight ( talk) 21:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
suggest that this was some sort of properly co-ordinated military operation" because "attack" also covers a chaotic "terrorist attack" and "attacks" covers hundreds of lone wolves individualy attacking people. The only plausible alternatives would be uprising / revolt but I don't think they'll get support? " 7 October" is the most common name, but we need to add something because that's in use for "on this day", adding "attacks" is the broadest and least biased option. MWQs ( talk) 23:07, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 June 2024. |
The result of the move request was: Moved to 7 October attacks. There was clear consensus to move away from the current title as the date was found to be an important part of the WP:COMMONNAME. The arguments opposing the move largely relied on the idea of another attack on 7 October 2024 which was demmed WP:CRYSTALBALL by the discussion. No prejudice against another discussion between the original proposoed title and 7 October attacks. ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 14:29, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel – I believe that enough time has passed since the last RM (which proposed the simpler "7 October attacks" name and closed with consensus to retain the current title) to re-propose a title change for this article. I believe that "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel" is the WP:COMMONNAME for this event, as seen in sources such as:
Many sources simply say "7 October" or "October 7 attacks" instead of spelling out the full name, but I believe that while "7 October attacks" could be a more COMMON name, I think that it fails WP:AT#Precision in favor of "7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel." DecafPotato ( talk) 00:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
hamas attack on israel, the majority of recent sources prominently include the date, sometimes just to set the scene but more often as a descriptive common name. First page of results from this month (
october 7not included as search term):
This date is not meaningful to the average English speaking reader. Especially when "Hamas-led attack on Israel" remains in the title, there should be no concern that readers won't know what we're talking about. However, I am not sure whether the move target should be 7 October or October 7. The local date format is, in fact, "7 October", but the English-language sources provided by the nom above show that reliable sources lean towards "October 7". Toadspike [Talk] 11:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
“Genocide experts” who? Please clarify NeutralASP ( talk) 10:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate. —
kashmīrī
TALK
16:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 23 June 2024. |
I thought that the request move was to change the article from 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel → 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel, not to 7 October attacks. It appears that the article has been unilaterally moved to a different title all together. I would have been less inclined to support the move had I known. User:Extorc, why did you move it to a different title all together? There has been other notable attacks on the date 7 October in the region such as the 2000 Hezbollah cross-border raid and the 2004 Sinai bombings, both of which occurred on the 7 October. That's why I supported a move to the title 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel as it was specific about which attack on the 7 October. IJA ( talk) 18:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Have a look at the first sentence in the "Events leading to the attack" section:
Over the course of 2023, before the attack, increased settler attacks had displaced hundreds of Palestinians, and there were clashes around the Al-Aqsa Mosque, a contested holy site in Jerusalem. [1]
1. Displaced whom exactly? Is there a citation for this?
2. "Settler attacks"? Are we going to completely ignore the numerous attacks by Palestinians throughout 2023? Just to name a few:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-palestinians-strikes-jihad-0d9d56b5c4fc2e8999105b05c8d30a2f
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-april-7-2023/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/05/world/middleeast/palestinian-shooting-israel-tel-aviv.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/8/19/two-israelis-killed-by-suspected-palestinian-gunman 3. Maybe explain why there were clashes near Temple Mount?
Here is my proposal:
In the months leading up to the attack, Palestinian violence against Israelis escalated significantly, including hundreds of rockets fired from Gaza towards Israeli cities, as well as numerous shooting and car-ramming attacks that resulted in multiple Israeli fatalities.
Citations:
2A0D:6FC2:4000:400:97EC:26:BBEC:F991 ( talk) 12:06, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
We cannot have the result say 'inconclusive or Hamas victory'; that is in direct violation of the rules regarding a military info-box. I’m not even trying to be political, but it does not make sense to say, 'well, you see, Hamas either won or didn’t win, we don’t know.' I keep saying this: an info-box can only say X Victory, Y Victory, or inconclusive. LuxembourgLover ( talk) 17:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
In the article, the People of Hamas are defined as fighters. This definition is wrong. The right definition is: terrorists. If we define these monsters as fighters, their actions may be considered as legitimate, and I consider it as an immoral concept. 147.235.194.173 ( talk) 05:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)