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Will the line, at opening, go all the way to Lakeshore, or is the Distillery Lane loop its proper end point? If it is the latter, parts of the article need an update.
Radagast (
talk)
19:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
The loop is just before the railway bridge, across from the southeast corner of the Distillery District. I think some work would have to be done before they could squeeze streetcars under the bridge to Lakeshore or beyond.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
19:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
According to
Steve Munro, work is required to widen the railway underpass so that streetcars will fit under, and eventually connect to a Queens Quay East LRT if funding ever materializes. At this point the bridge work isn't even on the TTC's list of projects waiting for approval. So that loop is the southern terminus for the foreseeable future.
Ivanvector (
talk)
20:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose One article is about the construction of new infrastructure and the other is about a service that only partly uses that section of new trackage. A series of shorter articles is much easier to read, especially on handheld devices. They are related and adequately linked, but there is no need to stuff everything into one page.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
15:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
You're talking about it like we're shoehorning all the content into one article, when in reality, a bunch of it would be unnecessary to transfer over in the merge. There is significant overlap that would be eliminated, and we'd be looking at a few extra sentences, max. --NaturalRX16:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
There is very little duplication. The construction of the new track and related history is not and does not need to be detailed in the 514 article. The new additional streetcar service, along the section of King Street through downtown Toronto, is something beyond one portion of the route. I believe that articles should be kept to smaller bites of information, and we can agree to disagree on that principle.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
16:55, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I think we always will disagree on that principle. But what follows is my perspective of the additional content that would be transferred (italic bold), which isn't a heck of a lot IMO. This is just the text of the article; the infobox would be taken out, and pictures can be added:
In 2007, the plan for the Cherry Street streetcar line was finalized.
Construction began in 2012 on the line along
Sumach Street and
Cherry Street, from
King Street to
Distillery Lane. This section was projected to cost $90 million
CAD. In April and May of 2014, the TTC constructed the junction to the Cherry Street line at the corner of King Street East and Sumach Street.
The 2016 budget, released in November, 2015, did not provide funding for regular streetcar service on Cherry Street in 2016. Service for part of 2016 would have cost $800,000; a full year of service would cost $2,100,000.
The line, from King Street to Distillery Lane, is approximately 700 metres long, and will have just three stops on it. The northern portion of the Cherry Street line is along Sumach Street from Eastern Avenue to a junction with the King Street line. The southern portion of the line ends in a loop on the north side the railway viaduct across from Distillery Lane.
Both streetcar tracks run on the east side of the street with a tree-lined median separating them from two automobile lanes and bike lanes on either side of them. The entire width is 32.5 metres, including sidewalks 5 metres wide.
Between 1917 and 1924, the former
Toronto Railway Company and, after 1921, the Toronto Transportation Commission operated the Ashbridge streetcar line into the
Port Lands. It connected to the streetcar grid at
Queen Street, just west of
Broadview Avenue and ran south to
Commissioners Street then west to Cherry Street. The line was abandoned because a bridge it used to cross over the railway corridor and the
Keating Channel became unsafe for streetcar use.
That makes for a dozen extra sentences, and the potential to make 514 Cherry a well-rounded article. Keeping them separate will likely maintain both of them as permanent Start- or C-class articles individually. --NaturalRX19:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I must agree with Natural RX. It would make things much clearer without adding much. There is no need to keep two articles that are similar to each other without much room for improvement for either. That is why I suggested the merger in the first place. There is also no separate article about the streetcar track on Bathurst between St. Clair and Bloor used to connect 512 St. Clair with the rest of the streetcar system. Johnny Au(
talk/
contributions)02:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for adding details to the discussion. You have shown why I have trouble agreeing to a total merge. Much of that information belongs in the
Toronto streetcar system article, since things like the former Ashbridge streetcar line and proposed East Bayfront LRT have no relevance to this 514 Cherry route. I think that would trim things down substantially.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
15:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose: I prefer the separate articles with
Cherry Street streetcar line concentrating on the design of the branch and the street (as side of road is not typical in Toronto with the exception of Fleet Street and Queens Quay between Spadina & York), and
514 Cherry concentrating on the service along a route. However, as a compromise, one could convert the entire
Cherry Street streetcar line article to become a section of the
514 Cherry article. I think that was proposed above. The
504 King article has something like that for the "Roncesvalles Avenue redesign". We should probably remove the section "Cherry Street extension" from the 504 King article.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
23:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Some have suggested putting the content for the
Cherry Street streetcar line into the
Toronto streetcar system article. I presume this means the
Dedicated rights-of-way section. I suppose this would work provided we break the section into sub-sections by line such as Queensway, Fleet/Queens Quay, St. Clair and now Cherry. It also handles the hypothetical case where the Cherry branch may be assigned to a different route in future. (We all thought it would be part of 504 until recently.) But I have been told not to make big additions (a long paragraph being too big) as the article was already very big.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
01:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I have modified the
Cherry Street streetcar line article to describe the line as a branch line with a loop rather than a "route" which is what
514 Cherry is. The article has a bit more description of the
Distillery Loop a.k.a.
Cherry Street Loop (both redirects someone else had earlier added). Thus, a sentence from the
514 Cherry article says: "Streetcars will operate through the financial district and downtown Toronto between
Dufferin Gate Loop and the
Cherry Street Loop." Thus, by keeping the Cherry Street streetcar line article, we can reference articles describing each end of the 514 Cherry route. Both the
Dufferin Gate Loop and
Cherry Street Loop articles have some description of the neighbourhood served. The article
Toronto streetcar loops also references the Cherry Street streetcar line article via the Distillery Loop redirect.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
23:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Merge, The Cherry Street streetcar line article could have simply be renamed to 514 Cherry. A streetcar line construction project on a local road does not have enough notability to become an article of its own. The content in the former can be distributed among a variety of articles that are more inclusive.
EelamStyleZ (
talk)
00:51, 4 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Support, why haven't we done this already? the discussion has resulted in a consensus over six months ago. On the sidenote, I second Ivanvector's motive.
C-GAUN (
talk)
23:18, 7 February 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't think there is a consensus yet. Some want to merge into
Toronto streetcar system, others into
514 Cherry. A minority (me included) want to keep the article essentially as-is. The article serves to describe the
Distillery Loop and complements the
Dufferin Gate Loop article. There is a precedent to have separate articles for loops. And like Dufferin Gate Loop, Distillery Loop is attached to a branch line.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
15:25, 23 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Support, it's bizarre in the extreme these are two separate articles. Any historical aspects of building the Cherry Line can be included in the
514 Cherry article, the Distillery Loop info can go in an article on that, and other info can be distributed as necessary to the relevant articles. But this is clear case of significant overlap and duplication as per
WP:OVERLAP. I see two "Opposes" and everyone else supporting some type of merge/refactor... that seems like as close to perfect consensus as we're going to get. —
Joeyconnick (
talk)
19:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Given that 514 Cherry becomes defunct as of October 7, 2018, it looks odd that the descriptions for an active streetcar loop and streetcar branch be buried in an article on a former streetcar route. Thus, I would recommend that we create a new article called "Distillery Loop" and split the sections "Distillery Loop" and "Cherry Street streetcar line" into it. Many other loops have a separate article (
Dufferin Gate Loop,
Neville Park Loop,
Bingham Loop, etc.); Distillery Loop should follow that pattern. After all, the TTC may again reorganize its streetcar routes.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
21:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The history of the Distillery Loop and Sumach/Cherry branch is now related to multiple routes (514 & 504). Ideally, it should be in a stand-alone article like for other loops. Why should we be making an exception for Distillery Loop?
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
22:05, 6 October 2018 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion. See also:
WikiProject Trains to do list and the
Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Streetcars, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Streetcars on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.StreetcarsWikipedia:WikiProject StreetcarsTemplate:WikiProject StreetcarsStreetcars articles
Will the line, at opening, go all the way to Lakeshore, or is the Distillery Lane loop its proper end point? If it is the latter, parts of the article need an update.
Radagast (
talk)
19:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
The loop is just before the railway bridge, across from the southeast corner of the Distillery District. I think some work would have to be done before they could squeeze streetcars under the bridge to Lakeshore or beyond.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
19:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
According to
Steve Munro, work is required to widen the railway underpass so that streetcars will fit under, and eventually connect to a Queens Quay East LRT if funding ever materializes. At this point the bridge work isn't even on the TTC's list of projects waiting for approval. So that loop is the southern terminus for the foreseeable future.
Ivanvector (
talk)
20:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)reply
Oppose One article is about the construction of new infrastructure and the other is about a service that only partly uses that section of new trackage. A series of shorter articles is much easier to read, especially on handheld devices. They are related and adequately linked, but there is no need to stuff everything into one page.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
15:17, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
You're talking about it like we're shoehorning all the content into one article, when in reality, a bunch of it would be unnecessary to transfer over in the merge. There is significant overlap that would be eliminated, and we'd be looking at a few extra sentences, max. --NaturalRX16:15, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
There is very little duplication. The construction of the new track and related history is not and does not need to be detailed in the 514 article. The new additional streetcar service, along the section of King Street through downtown Toronto, is something beyond one portion of the route. I believe that articles should be kept to smaller bites of information, and we can agree to disagree on that principle.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
16:55, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I think we always will disagree on that principle. But what follows is my perspective of the additional content that would be transferred (italic bold), which isn't a heck of a lot IMO. This is just the text of the article; the infobox would be taken out, and pictures can be added:
In 2007, the plan for the Cherry Street streetcar line was finalized.
Construction began in 2012 on the line along
Sumach Street and
Cherry Street, from
King Street to
Distillery Lane. This section was projected to cost $90 million
CAD. In April and May of 2014, the TTC constructed the junction to the Cherry Street line at the corner of King Street East and Sumach Street.
The 2016 budget, released in November, 2015, did not provide funding for regular streetcar service on Cherry Street in 2016. Service for part of 2016 would have cost $800,000; a full year of service would cost $2,100,000.
The line, from King Street to Distillery Lane, is approximately 700 metres long, and will have just three stops on it. The northern portion of the Cherry Street line is along Sumach Street from Eastern Avenue to a junction with the King Street line. The southern portion of the line ends in a loop on the north side the railway viaduct across from Distillery Lane.
Both streetcar tracks run on the east side of the street with a tree-lined median separating them from two automobile lanes and bike lanes on either side of them. The entire width is 32.5 metres, including sidewalks 5 metres wide.
Between 1917 and 1924, the former
Toronto Railway Company and, after 1921, the Toronto Transportation Commission operated the Ashbridge streetcar line into the
Port Lands. It connected to the streetcar grid at
Queen Street, just west of
Broadview Avenue and ran south to
Commissioners Street then west to Cherry Street. The line was abandoned because a bridge it used to cross over the railway corridor and the
Keating Channel became unsafe for streetcar use.
That makes for a dozen extra sentences, and the potential to make 514 Cherry a well-rounded article. Keeping them separate will likely maintain both of them as permanent Start- or C-class articles individually. --NaturalRX19:25, 11 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I must agree with Natural RX. It would make things much clearer without adding much. There is no need to keep two articles that are similar to each other without much room for improvement for either. That is why I suggested the merger in the first place. There is also no separate article about the streetcar track on Bathurst between St. Clair and Bloor used to connect 512 St. Clair with the rest of the streetcar system. Johnny Au(
talk/
contributions)02:10, 12 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for adding details to the discussion. You have shown why I have trouble agreeing to a total merge. Much of that information belongs in the
Toronto streetcar system article, since things like the former Ashbridge streetcar line and proposed East Bayfront LRT have no relevance to this 514 Cherry route. I think that would trim things down substantially.
Secondarywaltz (
talk)
15:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Oppose: I prefer the separate articles with
Cherry Street streetcar line concentrating on the design of the branch and the street (as side of road is not typical in Toronto with the exception of Fleet Street and Queens Quay between Spadina & York), and
514 Cherry concentrating on the service along a route. However, as a compromise, one could convert the entire
Cherry Street streetcar line article to become a section of the
514 Cherry article. I think that was proposed above. The
504 King article has something like that for the "Roncesvalles Avenue redesign". We should probably remove the section "Cherry Street extension" from the 504 King article.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
23:43, 29 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Some have suggested putting the content for the
Cherry Street streetcar line into the
Toronto streetcar system article. I presume this means the
Dedicated rights-of-way section. I suppose this would work provided we break the section into sub-sections by line such as Queensway, Fleet/Queens Quay, St. Clair and now Cherry. It also handles the hypothetical case where the Cherry branch may be assigned to a different route in future. (We all thought it would be part of 504 until recently.) But I have been told not to make big additions (a long paragraph being too big) as the article was already very big.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
01:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I have modified the
Cherry Street streetcar line article to describe the line as a branch line with a loop rather than a "route" which is what
514 Cherry is. The article has a bit more description of the
Distillery Loop a.k.a.
Cherry Street Loop (both redirects someone else had earlier added). Thus, a sentence from the
514 Cherry article says: "Streetcars will operate through the financial district and downtown Toronto between
Dufferin Gate Loop and the
Cherry Street Loop." Thus, by keeping the Cherry Street streetcar line article, we can reference articles describing each end of the 514 Cherry route. Both the
Dufferin Gate Loop and
Cherry Street Loop articles have some description of the neighbourhood served. The article
Toronto streetcar loops also references the Cherry Street streetcar line article via the Distillery Loop redirect.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
23:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Merge, The Cherry Street streetcar line article could have simply be renamed to 514 Cherry. A streetcar line construction project on a local road does not have enough notability to become an article of its own. The content in the former can be distributed among a variety of articles that are more inclusive.
EelamStyleZ (
talk)
00:51, 4 August 2016 (UTC)reply
Support, why haven't we done this already? the discussion has resulted in a consensus over six months ago. On the sidenote, I second Ivanvector's motive.
C-GAUN (
talk)
23:18, 7 February 2017 (UTC)reply
I don't think there is a consensus yet. Some want to merge into
Toronto streetcar system, others into
514 Cherry. A minority (me included) want to keep the article essentially as-is. The article serves to describe the
Distillery Loop and complements the
Dufferin Gate Loop article. There is a precedent to have separate articles for loops. And like Dufferin Gate Loop, Distillery Loop is attached to a branch line.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
15:25, 23 May 2017 (UTC)reply
Support, it's bizarre in the extreme these are two separate articles. Any historical aspects of building the Cherry Line can be included in the
514 Cherry article, the Distillery Loop info can go in an article on that, and other info can be distributed as necessary to the relevant articles. But this is clear case of significant overlap and duplication as per
WP:OVERLAP. I see two "Opposes" and everyone else supporting some type of merge/refactor... that seems like as close to perfect consensus as we're going to get. —
Joeyconnick (
talk)
19:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Given that 514 Cherry becomes defunct as of October 7, 2018, it looks odd that the descriptions for an active streetcar loop and streetcar branch be buried in an article on a former streetcar route. Thus, I would recommend that we create a new article called "Distillery Loop" and split the sections "Distillery Loop" and "Cherry Street streetcar line" into it. Many other loops have a separate article (
Dufferin Gate Loop,
Neville Park Loop,
Bingham Loop, etc.); Distillery Loop should follow that pattern. After all, the TTC may again reorganize its streetcar routes.
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
21:19, 5 October 2018 (UTC)reply
The history of the Distillery Loop and Sumach/Cherry branch is now related to multiple routes (514 & 504). Ideally, it should be in a stand-alone article like for other loops. Why should we be making an exception for Distillery Loop?
TheTrolleyPole (
talk)
22:05, 6 October 2018 (UTC)reply