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The story of how some legionnaires formed a new unit which fought for the allies should be in a separate article about the "Yugoslav Legion". The 369 Legion ceased to exist after Stalingrad, and that is what this article is about.-- Thewanderer ( talk) 18:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Valid point technically speaking. You forget the fact that legionnaires were in majority in the Yugoslav Legion and did not get a chance to vote on keeping their old 369th unit name. I do think the various circles of hell these men had to descend during WW2 is now incomplete without this. In my opinion the terrible fate surviving legionaires of 369th regiment experienced in Tito's JA at Čačak and later should be added as a chapter here to see their story to its conclusion. Many of them become heroes and most lost their lives for causes they had little chance to understand or control. Removal of this chapter may not help average reader get the whole story. -- Lone plunger ( talk) 19:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
" Approximately 1000 legionnaires were evacuated from Stalingrad by air. They were awarded the Croatian Legion 1941 Linden Leaf for their service and formed the core of a new unit, the 369th Infantry Division.[6] "
I did not see any real reference(s) to 1,000 evacuation by air except on this internet site. It seems to be inflated considering difficulties Luftwaffe had, I doubt 1000 wounded made it out of Stalingrad by air. It seems more likely from Pojic that there were in total approx 1000 men wounded + sick + trained but never dispatched to Stalingrad left after fall of Stalingrad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lone plunger ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"German soldiers who survived post Stalingrad captivity and returned after the war mostly refuse to comment or discuss when interviewed their Russian captivity days as ' too hard to discuss, time when all human values were destroyed and men were turned into animals'. Stalingrad German (and Croat) veterans POW hardships resulting in only some 5% returning home alive after the war is likely unparallelled in modern history of war."
How is this "likely unparallelled" if we know from various sources that Germans routinely starved entire Armies of Soviet POWs, sometimes over 100,000 AT ONCE (with no survivors)? Let's reserve "unparallelled" moniker to occurences, which truly are unique and beyond comparison. Goliath74 ( talk) 20:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I did not know about 100,000 Russian POWs starved at once, history is not my profession. If you can quote a source we should rephrase this of course. I did not hear or read about such large POW attrition rate ever, hope you are wrong ....... but fear you could be right. We are not talking 'civilian' extermination camp victims, POWs I hope? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.57.91 ( talk) 20:38, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
at the start of the section on 'Stalingrad Battle' there is the sentence "It is important to note that Paulus and his 6th Army group were the best military unit German Wermacht and Hitler ever had. They were the most experienced, most disciplined, best trained and equipped German units with past successes unparalleled in Europe until they reached Stalingrad". was this ever officially recognized? Seems a bit arbitrary. They may well have been very good troops but the best Hitler ever commanded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Rock Rover ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not know if this is accurate but I do think Paulus and his 6th army were the best Hitler had,. Of course until Stalingrad. I do not know official German historians position ...... maybe we should study their sources. I wrote this and if wrong ....... I am happy we remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.57.91 ( talk) 20:34, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I consider this article should be moved to 369th (Croatian) Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht). It reads as if it was a unit of the Croatian Army/Home Guard, but it was a Wehrmacht formation recruited from volunteers from the NDH. Peacemaker67 ( talk) 02:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I've completed an overhaul of this article using WP:RS, but there are still a lot of unsourced paragraphs, peacock terms and weasel words. Can anyone who can navigate to the Croatian language book that is used as a source help out? Peacemaker67 ( talk) 08:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
I just completed some major edits in this section and am hoping it has been sufficiently improved. Any feedback or constructive criticism would be nice. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:20, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Also, I reorganized the timeline of events because they were not in any cohesive order. I will continue to look for that, but I am just giving the heads up now that events might not be in chronological order. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
One more thing. I noticed there were some paragraphs that were almost entirely incomprehensible and several others just proposed their entire deletion. However, after reading carefully through them, there are some important and notable details that can be picked out. Just an idea to keep an eye out for. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht). There was little discussion but ample time and I cannot see consensus to move to the initially proposed target. However, what I see is unanimous consensus that we should avoid gave two parenthetical terms in the title, as have enacted that particular aspect. :) · Salvidrim!· ✉ 09:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
369th (Croatian) Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht) →
Croatian Legion – I thought this move wouldn't be controversial, but I was reverted after I did it myself.
Croatian Legion is the
WP:COMMONNAME for this unit. It's much more concise, avoids the ugly effect of two terms in parentheses in one title, and already redirects here (full disclosure: I just made the redirect earlier today). I get 29,400 hits for
"croatian legion" -wikipedia versus 12,400
"369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment" -wikipedia. In Scholar it's 18 to 1; in Books it's 342 to 23. I'd give you an Ngram, but I can't get it to understand the current
official name in any form. --Relisted
Tyrol5
[Talk] 04:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC) --
BDD (
talk)
05:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I know my summary says see talk page. Sorry, no time now. I'll add details later. Howicus ( talk) 17:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Short of B class. A copyedit is necessary - in particular, more care needs to be taken of transliteration of Russian names. Referencing should be strengthened too - there are some dead links, unreferenced paragraphs, and book sources are missing page numbers. External links section also needs a cleanup. Coverage is good, and I didn't notice any problems with accuracy. Obviously a significant effort has gone into this article, so a general cleanup is all that it takes. GregorB ( talk) 11:15, 12 June 2011 (UTC) |
Substituted at 21:32, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The story of how some legionnaires formed a new unit which fought for the allies should be in a separate article about the "Yugoslav Legion". The 369 Legion ceased to exist after Stalingrad, and that is what this article is about.-- Thewanderer ( talk) 18:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Valid point technically speaking. You forget the fact that legionnaires were in majority in the Yugoslav Legion and did not get a chance to vote on keeping their old 369th unit name. I do think the various circles of hell these men had to descend during WW2 is now incomplete without this. In my opinion the terrible fate surviving legionaires of 369th regiment experienced in Tito's JA at Čačak and later should be added as a chapter here to see their story to its conclusion. Many of them become heroes and most lost their lives for causes they had little chance to understand or control. Removal of this chapter may not help average reader get the whole story. -- Lone plunger ( talk) 19:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
" Approximately 1000 legionnaires were evacuated from Stalingrad by air. They were awarded the Croatian Legion 1941 Linden Leaf for their service and formed the core of a new unit, the 369th Infantry Division.[6] "
I did not see any real reference(s) to 1,000 evacuation by air except on this internet site. It seems to be inflated considering difficulties Luftwaffe had, I doubt 1000 wounded made it out of Stalingrad by air. It seems more likely from Pojic that there were in total approx 1000 men wounded + sick + trained but never dispatched to Stalingrad left after fall of Stalingrad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lone plunger ( talk • contribs) 08:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
"German soldiers who survived post Stalingrad captivity and returned after the war mostly refuse to comment or discuss when interviewed their Russian captivity days as ' too hard to discuss, time when all human values were destroyed and men were turned into animals'. Stalingrad German (and Croat) veterans POW hardships resulting in only some 5% returning home alive after the war is likely unparallelled in modern history of war."
How is this "likely unparallelled" if we know from various sources that Germans routinely starved entire Armies of Soviet POWs, sometimes over 100,000 AT ONCE (with no survivors)? Let's reserve "unparallelled" moniker to occurences, which truly are unique and beyond comparison. Goliath74 ( talk) 20:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I did not know about 100,000 Russian POWs starved at once, history is not my profession. If you can quote a source we should rephrase this of course. I did not hear or read about such large POW attrition rate ever, hope you are wrong ....... but fear you could be right. We are not talking 'civilian' extermination camp victims, POWs I hope? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.57.91 ( talk) 20:38, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
at the start of the section on 'Stalingrad Battle' there is the sentence "It is important to note that Paulus and his 6th Army group were the best military unit German Wermacht and Hitler ever had. They were the most experienced, most disciplined, best trained and equipped German units with past successes unparalleled in Europe until they reached Stalingrad". was this ever officially recognized? Seems a bit arbitrary. They may well have been very good troops but the best Hitler ever commanded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red Rock Rover ( talk • contribs) 05:56, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not know if this is accurate but I do think Paulus and his 6th army were the best Hitler had,. Of course until Stalingrad. I do not know official German historians position ...... maybe we should study their sources. I wrote this and if wrong ....... I am happy we remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.139.57.91 ( talk) 20:34, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I consider this article should be moved to 369th (Croatian) Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht). It reads as if it was a unit of the Croatian Army/Home Guard, but it was a Wehrmacht formation recruited from volunteers from the NDH. Peacemaker67 ( talk) 02:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I've completed an overhaul of this article using WP:RS, but there are still a lot of unsourced paragraphs, peacock terms and weasel words. Can anyone who can navigate to the Croatian language book that is used as a source help out? Peacemaker67 ( talk) 08:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
I just completed some major edits in this section and am hoping it has been sufficiently improved. Any feedback or constructive criticism would be nice. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:20, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
Also, I reorganized the timeline of events because they were not in any cohesive order. I will continue to look for that, but I am just giving the heads up now that events might not be in chronological order. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:27, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
One more thing. I noticed there were some paragraphs that were almost entirely incomprehensible and several others just proposed their entire deletion. However, after reading carefully through them, there are some important and notable details that can be picked out. Just an idea to keep an eye out for. DaltonCastle ( talk) 07:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved to 369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht). There was little discussion but ample time and I cannot see consensus to move to the initially proposed target. However, what I see is unanimous consensus that we should avoid gave two parenthetical terms in the title, as have enacted that particular aspect. :) · Salvidrim!· ✉ 09:33, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
369th (Croatian) Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht) →
Croatian Legion – I thought this move wouldn't be controversial, but I was reverted after I did it myself.
Croatian Legion is the
WP:COMMONNAME for this unit. It's much more concise, avoids the ugly effect of two terms in parentheses in one title, and already redirects here (full disclosure: I just made the redirect earlier today). I get 29,400 hits for
"croatian legion" -wikipedia versus 12,400
"369th Reinforced Infantry Regiment" -wikipedia. In Scholar it's 18 to 1; in Books it's 342 to 23. I'd give you an Ngram, but I can't get it to understand the current
official name in any form. --Relisted
Tyrol5
[Talk] 04:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC) --
BDD (
talk)
05:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
I know my summary says see talk page. Sorry, no time now. I'll add details later. Howicus ( talk) 17:53, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment (Wehrmacht)/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Short of B class. A copyedit is necessary - in particular, more care needs to be taken of transliteration of Russian names. Referencing should be strengthened too - there are some dead links, unreferenced paragraphs, and book sources are missing page numbers. External links section also needs a cleanup. Coverage is good, and I didn't notice any problems with accuracy. Obviously a significant effort has gone into this article, so a general cleanup is all that it takes. GregorB ( talk) 11:15, 12 June 2011 (UTC) |
Substituted at 21:32, 26 June 2016 (UTC)