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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Re: User:Mjroots's revert of my change.
I'm not sure why WP:UE was invoked, but the Channel Islands are an archipelago of several islands in the English Channel. They are not a single state, country, territory or dependency (they're a bit like the West Indies, but smaller).
There are two Crown Dependencies located within these islands: the Bailiwick of Jersey (commonly called just "Jersey") and the Bailiwick of Guernsey (commonly called just "Guernsey"). The Bailiwick of Guernsey comprises the sub-jurisdictions of Guernsey, Alderney and Sark. Alderney, the location of this incident, is correctly addressed as " Alderney, Guernsey" (note that the link is to the Bailiwick and not to the sub-jurisdiction). That is not to say that the current description of "Alderney, Channel Islands" is wrong, but it’s a bit like addressing Kingston, Jamaica as "Kingston, West Indies". So I think it would be more encyclopaedic to change the location in this article to "Alderney, Guernsey". -- DeFacto ( talk). 16:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Deeday-UK has reverted my reversion of the change to the order of the sections in the article he made, claiming WP:AATF applies. I see nothing there that gives any instruction as to which order aircrash articles should be arranged in, only as to the order in which things should appear in article titles (which this article adheres to). It makes sense to me to introduce the aircraft before the event so that the reader fully understands what type(s) of aircraft the article is about. I suggest that this article is returned to that order. Mjroots ( talk) 11:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
sala is now comfirmed as dead. Please update this article 2600:1006:B04C:5CD7:2190:9A47:867F:642 ( talk) 23:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
The rules are discussed here. It is illegal for a private pilot to carry paying passengers, but sometimes the rules are bent or broken.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:41, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The article on Emiliano Sala includes the fairly important matter of his message to friends while on the aircraft, saying that it felt like it was falling to pieces, and that he was scared. If that's worthy of inclusion in his article it's worthy of inclusion here, with this article then ideally being summarised in the section of the Sala article that deals with his disappearance and death. Beorhtwulf ( talk) 13:59, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Leadenly stating that the coroner "formally" identified the body is an example of the sort of language to avoid in an article. It's a coroner's job to formally identify bodies, so there is no need to state it. -- MarchOrDie ( talk) 14:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
It's a coroner's job to formally identify bodies, so what's the problem here? In my experience, "formal identification" is an acceptable term that carries more weight. The wiki article for coroner uses the terms "confirm the identity" and "legally identify" so maybe we could work one of those two terms in if you prefer, but the current wording "where it was identified as that of Sala" just doesn't sound right. I can't find anything about coroners' duties on the British gov. website but the NI gov. site has a section on "Identifying the body", see [1], which states "If the Coroner orders a post-mortem examination then a member of the family will be asked to formally identify the body." So a member of the family does the formal ID (obvs!) and it's the coroner who arranges for that to happen, prior to the post-mortem, which is bound to be required in this situation. Unless we want to draw attention to the gruesome fact that a member of the family had to look at the body and say Yes that's our Emiliano, then I think we should probably summarize it by stating that the coroner formally identified the body. Rodney Baggins ( talk) 10:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
None of the terms in the name of this article seem very likely to be search terms for anyone looking for this story and If Emiliano Sala hadn't been in the plane, this article would probably never have been created. For those reasons, I think we need a better name - something with "Emiliano Sala" in it. Something like "Emiliano Sala plane disappearance". Thoughts? -- DeFacto ( talk). 09:29, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Being reported on BBC that the aircraft is largely intact, which would suggest a ditching rather than a crash. I suggest that we hold off any move for now, pending further information. Mjroots ( talk) 08:07, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Should the article be renamed to something along the lines of Emiliano Sala plane crash? I think this makes more sense than the present title: the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash article is not called the 1999 Piper PA-32R Saratoga II crash. -- Xwejnusgozo ( talk) 00:34, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
As Sala was not the only person into the airplane, we must be respectful with the pilot and his family. What I am trying to say is that we are not including him if we name the article "Emiliano Sala..." or something like that. -- Gatitocheesecake ( talk). 02:56, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
These are given above the infobox as 49° 47′ 24″ N, 2° 42′ 36″ W. I'm not quite sure how this has been sourced, and it estimates the crash site as around 22 miles from Alderney. [2] This doesn't chime with the reports of the plane being seven miles from Alderney when it went missing.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- Now that we've got the coords verified by a very reliable source, can they be added back to the article and the map adjusted accordingly? Mjroots ( talk) 22:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This article is semi-protected and thus I can't edit it, but the section of the article which says that Sala's family has launched a crowdfunding campaign to find the body of David Ibbotson is incorrect; they started a crowdfunding campaign to find Sala, but the campaign to find David Ibbotson was launched by his daughter - nor can I add the link to the gofund me page as a link as it's blacklisted! Can someone who has appropriate privileges please update? Dafyddybryn ( talk) 19:38, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move.. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 17:36, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash/Archive 1 be
renamed and moved to
Emiliano Sala plane crash.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash → Emiliano Sala plane crash – "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" does not indicate the significance of this article. The plane crash is only notable because of Emiliano Sala's death in it (the Wikipedia article on the Piper PA-46 states that "As of January 2019, 225 accidents had been reported in the Aviation Safety Network wiki database, including 106 hull losses, causing 219 fatalities", yet this seems to be the only case which has a separate stand-alone article). Therefore I believe that renaming the article is appropriate. Just for comparison, the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash article is not called the 1999 Piper PA-32R Saratoga II crash. Xwejnusgozo ( talk) 15:18, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above."? -- DeFacto ( talk). 10:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This practice of using specialized names is often controversial, and should not be adopted unless it produces clear benefits outweighing the use of common names; when it is, the article titles adopted should follow a neutral and common convention specific to that subject domain, and otherwise adhere to the general principles for titling articles on Wikipedia." -- DeFacto ( talk). 22:52, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Football agent Willie McKay says that he arranged the flight for Sala, but was not involved in selecting the plane or pilot. [5] The flight was arranged through another pilot, David Henderson, but somehow the job was given to David Ibbotson instead. Henderson can be seen at the controls of the plane that was lost, N264DB, in this BBC News video from October 2015, starting at 1:14. Henderson seems to be familiar with the plane, and gives a guided tour of it.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:19, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I added the above image to the article, and it has been removed with an edit summary claiming it to be "singularly inappropriate". I fail to see how that is the case. I note that images of Sala in his team strip have been used alongside much of the press coverage of this incident, including that which we cite:
The image should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Agree that such picture is rather incongruous in this article, especially in the Salvage section. If there was a sizeable Background section then maybe. Most readers would arguably come to this article already knowing who Sala was anyway, likely already having seen that photo in his biography; duplicating it here doesn't add much to this article. -- Deeday-UK ( talk) 00:52, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Willie McKay has given an interview to BBC News, but I'm not sure if it adds much to what is known already.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
It has been reported that David Ibbotson had various financial problems [7] but at the moment this is not directly related to the crash. It is worth bearing in mind for future reference.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
I think there is an argument for leaving the "Malibu" out of the title as the incident took place nowhere near Malibu: as far as I can see this potential confusion is the only contribution that it makes to the article. Britmax ( talk) 18:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I regret dredging this topic back up again, but there was a two-fatality PA-46 crash in the United States in February and another in Canada two days ago, and it's likely there will be (or already are) others, as this is a commonplace aircraft that's not large enough to be subject to more stringent classes of aviation safety requirements. The Sala crash isn't consistently called the "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" on sources outside of Wikipedia, and it doesn't seem to have picked up any particular common colloquial name. I think the current title is still too ambiguous and I vote for adding "Channel Islands" to it. Carguychris ( talk) 20:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus for this requested move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) qedk ( t 桜 c) 13:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash → 2019 Emiliano Sala air accident – Per WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME. The Piper PA-46 is a commonplace general aviation aircraft that is typically involved in a significant number of fatal accidents in any given year, most of which do not meet accepted community guidelines for notability. The present title does not convey adequate information to tell the reader which PA-46 crash is discussed or why this particular one is notable. The death of Emiliano Sala is of widespread interest to readers who have little familiarity with aviation, and the titles of most press articles about the crash refer to Sala without referring to the aircraft type, so it makes sense to name the article after the man rather than the aircraft. Carguychris ( talk) 00:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Re: User:Mjroots's revert of my change.
I'm not sure why WP:UE was invoked, but the Channel Islands are an archipelago of several islands in the English Channel. They are not a single state, country, territory or dependency (they're a bit like the West Indies, but smaller).
There are two Crown Dependencies located within these islands: the Bailiwick of Jersey (commonly called just "Jersey") and the Bailiwick of Guernsey (commonly called just "Guernsey"). The Bailiwick of Guernsey comprises the sub-jurisdictions of Guernsey, Alderney and Sark. Alderney, the location of this incident, is correctly addressed as " Alderney, Guernsey" (note that the link is to the Bailiwick and not to the sub-jurisdiction). That is not to say that the current description of "Alderney, Channel Islands" is wrong, but it’s a bit like addressing Kingston, Jamaica as "Kingston, West Indies". So I think it would be more encyclopaedic to change the location in this article to "Alderney, Guernsey". -- DeFacto ( talk). 16:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Deeday-UK has reverted my reversion of the change to the order of the sections in the article he made, claiming WP:AATF applies. I see nothing there that gives any instruction as to which order aircrash articles should be arranged in, only as to the order in which things should appear in article titles (which this article adheres to). It makes sense to me to introduce the aircraft before the event so that the reader fully understands what type(s) of aircraft the article is about. I suggest that this article is returned to that order. Mjroots ( talk) 11:28, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
sala is now comfirmed as dead. Please update this article 2600:1006:B04C:5CD7:2190:9A47:867F:642 ( talk) 23:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
The rules are discussed here. It is illegal for a private pilot to carry paying passengers, but sometimes the rules are bent or broken.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:41, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
The article on Emiliano Sala includes the fairly important matter of his message to friends while on the aircraft, saying that it felt like it was falling to pieces, and that he was scared. If that's worthy of inclusion in his article it's worthy of inclusion here, with this article then ideally being summarised in the section of the Sala article that deals with his disappearance and death. Beorhtwulf ( talk) 13:59, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Leadenly stating that the coroner "formally" identified the body is an example of the sort of language to avoid in an article. It's a coroner's job to formally identify bodies, so there is no need to state it. -- MarchOrDie ( talk) 14:52, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
It's a coroner's job to formally identify bodies, so what's the problem here? In my experience, "formal identification" is an acceptable term that carries more weight. The wiki article for coroner uses the terms "confirm the identity" and "legally identify" so maybe we could work one of those two terms in if you prefer, but the current wording "where it was identified as that of Sala" just doesn't sound right. I can't find anything about coroners' duties on the British gov. website but the NI gov. site has a section on "Identifying the body", see [1], which states "If the Coroner orders a post-mortem examination then a member of the family will be asked to formally identify the body." So a member of the family does the formal ID (obvs!) and it's the coroner who arranges for that to happen, prior to the post-mortem, which is bound to be required in this situation. Unless we want to draw attention to the gruesome fact that a member of the family had to look at the body and say Yes that's our Emiliano, then I think we should probably summarize it by stating that the coroner formally identified the body. Rodney Baggins ( talk) 10:04, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
None of the terms in the name of this article seem very likely to be search terms for anyone looking for this story and If Emiliano Sala hadn't been in the plane, this article would probably never have been created. For those reasons, I think we need a better name - something with "Emiliano Sala" in it. Something like "Emiliano Sala plane disappearance". Thoughts? -- DeFacto ( talk). 09:29, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
Being reported on BBC that the aircraft is largely intact, which would suggest a ditching rather than a crash. I suggest that we hold off any move for now, pending further information. Mjroots ( talk) 08:07, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Should the article be renamed to something along the lines of Emiliano Sala plane crash? I think this makes more sense than the present title: the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash article is not called the 1999 Piper PA-32R Saratoga II crash. -- Xwejnusgozo ( talk) 00:34, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
As Sala was not the only person into the airplane, we must be respectful with the pilot and his family. What I am trying to say is that we are not including him if we name the article "Emiliano Sala..." or something like that. -- Gatitocheesecake ( talk). 02:56, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
These are given above the infobox as 49° 47′ 24″ N, 2° 42′ 36″ W. I'm not quite sure how this has been sourced, and it estimates the crash site as around 22 miles from Alderney. [2] This doesn't chime with the reports of the plane being seven miles from Alderney when it went missing.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 18:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- Now that we've got the coords verified by a very reliable source, can they be added back to the article and the map adjusted accordingly? Mjroots ( talk) 22:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This article is semi-protected and thus I can't edit it, but the section of the article which says that Sala's family has launched a crowdfunding campaign to find the body of David Ibbotson is incorrect; they started a crowdfunding campaign to find Sala, but the campaign to find David Ibbotson was launched by his daughter - nor can I add the link to the gofund me page as a link as it's blacklisted! Can someone who has appropriate privileges please update? Dafyddybryn ( talk) 19:38, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move.. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 17:36, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
![]() | It was proposed in this section that
2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash/Archive 1 be
renamed and moved to
Emiliano Sala plane crash.
The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment. Links:
current log •
target log |
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash → Emiliano Sala plane crash – "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" does not indicate the significance of this article. The plane crash is only notable because of Emiliano Sala's death in it (the Wikipedia article on the Piper PA-46 states that "As of January 2019, 225 accidents had been reported in the Aviation Safety Network wiki database, including 106 hull losses, causing 219 fatalities", yet this seems to be the only case which has a separate stand-alone article). Therefore I believe that renaming the article is appropriate. Just for comparison, the John F. Kennedy Jr. plane crash article is not called the 1999 Piper PA-32R Saratoga II crash. Xwejnusgozo ( talk) 15:18, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above."? -- DeFacto ( talk). 10:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
This practice of using specialized names is often controversial, and should not be adopted unless it produces clear benefits outweighing the use of common names; when it is, the article titles adopted should follow a neutral and common convention specific to that subject domain, and otherwise adhere to the general principles for titling articles on Wikipedia." -- DeFacto ( talk). 22:52, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Football agent Willie McKay says that he arranged the flight for Sala, but was not involved in selecting the plane or pilot. [5] The flight was arranged through another pilot, David Henderson, but somehow the job was given to David Ibbotson instead. Henderson can be seen at the controls of the plane that was lost, N264DB, in this BBC News video from October 2015, starting at 1:14. Henderson seems to be familiar with the plane, and gives a guided tour of it.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:19, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
I added the above image to the article, and it has been removed with an edit summary claiming it to be "singularly inappropriate". I fail to see how that is the case. I note that images of Sala in his team strip have been used alongside much of the press coverage of this incident, including that which we cite:
The image should be restored. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Agree that such picture is rather incongruous in this article, especially in the Salvage section. If there was a sizeable Background section then maybe. Most readers would arguably come to this article already knowing who Sala was anyway, likely already having seen that photo in his biography; duplicating it here doesn't add much to this article. -- Deeday-UK ( talk) 00:52, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Willie McKay has given an interview to BBC News, but I'm not sure if it adds much to what is known already.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
It has been reported that David Ibbotson had various financial problems [7] but at the moment this is not directly related to the crash. It is worth bearing in mind for future reference.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 07:18, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
I think there is an argument for leaving the "Malibu" out of the title as the incident took place nowhere near Malibu: as far as I can see this potential confusion is the only contribution that it makes to the article. Britmax ( talk) 18:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I regret dredging this topic back up again, but there was a two-fatality PA-46 crash in the United States in February and another in Canada two days ago, and it's likely there will be (or already are) others, as this is a commonplace aircraft that's not large enough to be subject to more stringent classes of aviation safety requirements. The Sala crash isn't consistently called the "2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash" on sources outside of Wikipedia, and it doesn't seem to have picked up any particular common colloquial name. I think the current title is still too ambiguous and I vote for adding "Channel Islands" to it. Carguychris ( talk) 20:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus for this requested move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) qedk ( t 桜 c) 13:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
2019 Piper PA-46 Malibu crash → 2019 Emiliano Sala air accident – Per WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME. The Piper PA-46 is a commonplace general aviation aircraft that is typically involved in a significant number of fatal accidents in any given year, most of which do not meet accepted community guidelines for notability. The present title does not convey adequate information to tell the reader which PA-46 crash is discussed or why this particular one is notable. The death of Emiliano Sala is of widespread interest to readers who have little familiarity with aviation, and the titles of most press articles about the crash refer to Sala without referring to the aircraft type, so it makes sense to name the article after the man rather than the aircraft. Carguychris ( talk) 00:07, 19 May 2019 (UTC)