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Archive 1 |
"Author" of the attack? "Breaching" a red light? Maybe more conventional terms are appropriate. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks folks. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 19:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Not the place to push conspiracy theories. Reso lute 23:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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There is a trend to cover a sexual-oriented conscious "self-identification" (incel conjecture) moreso than the conformist "self-identification" of his conscious use of his real name (Anglicised as Alek rather than Alex). This is not a balanced approach. If he did not identify as Armenian-Canadian, he would have changed his name. If he did not make a single post on Facebook concerning incel, he would not be identified as celibate. Surely he was not in the closet about that, and nor should the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.183.30 ( talk) 17:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
What, he really is Armenian...learned of violent overthrow in Armenia on the day(23rd April)....executed his "rebellion" on the day of the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day...well he really would have been mad. yeah, and probably not right in the header to use Van so as not to offend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.189.183 ( talk) 18:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Apparently the National Post has released a statement from Canada`s Armenian Community Association offering prayers and condolences. I guess it IS relevent after all, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.13 ( talk) 22:36, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
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For some reason, my correction of this omission does not show up. Is that section locked somehow? Very shabby to allow incorrect reportage to stand. 77Mike77 ( talk) 17:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 17:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/status/988505465553383424?s=19
Former NYC police commissioner reporting it as a terrorist attack. This would be useful to put on the page, if anyone can go in and edit it. Media here in Canada are doing a real disservice by releasing zero information. As we often do, I guess we'll get it from CNN or somewhere else before our own media tells us anything. Adtrace ( talk) 20:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Concur with Bearcat regarding foreign police quotes. Update tomorrow may include something from Canadian PM on Canadian media. [1]
References
What encyclopaedic information do these quotes convey beyond the final sentence of the preceding section "In the aftermath of the incident, messages of support and condolences came under the hashtag "#TorontoStrong"."? The flags are certainly not necessary and I'm struggling to think of a reason not to just remove the entire section. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
As a rule, the reactions should only include those people directly involved eg Prime Minister, city leader, etc with what happened otherwise what happens is that every country in the world and all major organisations can be included. BernardZ ( talk)
I think what we have at the momemnt is close to ideal - a prose summary of what the reactions were, a note that the directly relevent people have commented (city, provincial and national leaders) and that there have been international reactions. The quoted portion of the mayor's statement is the only non-proforma bit and that actually adds something to the article. This is followed by summaries of relevant physical reactions in prose form without excessive detail. If anybody major says or does something out of the ordinary, as determined by reliable secondary sources then we can consider adding that, but it should be in prose format. Thryduulf ( talk) 08:24, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Can use this instead of the generic photo if you want:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by LaserLegs ( talk • contribs) 21:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Is there any benefit to displaying the flag of the "movement" he is said to have identified with? -- Zanimum ( talk) 12:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps if it is a flag of Canada or Armenia, or perhaps if the "he said she said" of non-Canadian newspapers gets a credible source. New York Post (dubiously) indicated a CBN source, but it`s not coming up on a google or duckduckgo search. No benefit as of yet.
Flag of the group, the shoddy New York Post article, and the British tabliod (Sun) article shall be taken down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 13:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
No flags for anyone. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
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Shouldn`t we use his real name? It does not translate to English or French the same depending on Translator, but the Armenian is correct; "Ալեք Մինասյանն է" 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 14:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC) Oh yeah, another unreasonable denial of the suspects identity may be construed as having basis in the Toronto Human Rights Code as it protects against identifing people who may be targetted, for hate-crimes or something like holocaust-denial, but the guy was clearly arrested and identified already, so that arguement would apply equally to disclosure of whether he identified as LBGT celibate etc. etc. and it is STRONGLY recommended that the fact the guy is an Armenian-Canadian be PROMINENTLY noted in this article, lest further disservice be done by denying it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 15:06, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
so sorry if you misunderstand, what is the policy on using an individuals real name, and is it appropriate to follow policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 15:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
So it would be correct to include a "significant alternative name", or is that only for the French Canadian wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.165.35 ( talk) 16:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It will be fairly written here on wikipedia, compatible with policy affording multi-lingual proper usage of individuals names; that is also a Human Right, and must be afforded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 ( talk) 17:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
I found this precedent template: Alek Minassian I trust that helps improve the article, and complies with all policy without breaching the guys Human Rights to identify as he may, nor violate the rights of nor cause fear to other persons of Armenian extract, living or dead.
Alex Minasyan |
I'm not seeing this statement in the article referenced. What does this even mean? He can't use the prison phone to contact those injured? -- Zanimum ( talk) 16:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Detained persons in Canada (outside of immigration) are permitted several modes of communication generally; if there is no fear of destruction of evidence or witness tampering (they wouldn`t have charged him so quickly if they had not yet SECURED sufficient evidence); perhaps the defendants twitter and FB (or indeed other electronic means of correspondence) should not have been deactivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 ( talk) 16:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The sentence is stupidly worded. 77Mike77 ( talk) 17:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
CBC News has official confirmation from Facebook that the "Incel Rebellion" post was genuine and was publicly posted to Minassian's account before Facebook deactivated it, as is their standard procedure. Currently in Tweet form ( https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/988786051924791296), will likely filter through into news stories throughout the day. RA0808 talk contribs 14:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It was the FB account confirmed genuine, not the FB post, which may have passed as if it were made jokingly. This needs clarifying in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 24 April 2018 (UTC)
This Incel Rebellion stuff sounds like a 4chan prank to me. I'm very wary of it. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 17:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Brazilian media outlet Globo has published a third name [1]. Do we add this to the article? Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 22:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
As a note, the two sources given after this passage do not support either claim. This article supports that this was the deadliest mass slaying in (nearly three) decades, but do we have a cite for the deadliest ramming attack in Canadian history? Reso lute 23:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Any suggestions? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Why is it a pointless year? There's never been a van attack before in Toronto? Lots of mass shootings and attacks have the year pre-fixed.. We'll just have to change it again when there are more vehicle attacks in future. Meanwhile, there's no harm in using 2018 now. Regardless, this article should be titled either "Toronto_van_attack", or "2018_Toronto_van_attack", and the others should forward there, not vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.91.136.100 ( talk) 05:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The correct and appropriate term for this should be recognized as "Toronto Vehicular Rampage Incident". Condolences 126.161.142.36 ( talk) 10:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It seems that this was more of a "Rampage" or "Tragedy" of Vehicular manslaughter by an Armenian-Canadian in Toronto. Perhaps "2018 Toronto Rampage" (not to be CONFUSED with Montreal Rampage)
Guys... Toronto van attack. Not "TORONTO ATTACK". 23.91.136.100 ( talk) 05:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
There may have been several so-called attacks. Calling it just "Toronto Attack" as User:InedibleHulk did is just so inappropriate. There are possibly tens of so-called Toronto attacks. What makes this incident as "THEEEE attack of all attacks" Toronto has suffered from just baffles me. Mentioning the year as in "2018 Toronto Attack" may be more acceptable though not ideal either. "Toronto attack" has just to go. werldwayd ( talk) 05:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Article should be moved back to 2018 Toronto van attack. It is most appropriate as an encyclopedia title. "Toronto attack" is generic and does not accurately represent the subject. EelamStyleZ ( talk) 05:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, there are BILLIONAIRES of attacks (not limited to Toronto) so it may be a bit too GENERIC. You would have to be on DRUGS to call it that, I mean, even an Israeli girl once claimed her dog was attacked by her ex-boyfriend in the little electric car he bought for her but she didn`t like, A REVA, but that was a complicated attack because they were estranged. Just soo many examples, anyway, I see it`s been changed back to "Toronto Van Attack". Let`s see what they name the memorial tomorrow, could be a better choice of name.
"Van" should stay in the name, because it reflects how people are referring to it. Media sources are consistently calling it a "van attack" ( CBC, National Post, Globe and Mail), or occasionally "van rampage" ( Toronto Star). — Kawnhr ( talk) 18:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
If that comes from the Toronto Police or Prosecutor that would pass without objection; otherwise... 126.161.189.183 ( talk) 18:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Not a particularly appropriate line of inquiry. ansh 666 04:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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Reporters were asking about the ethnicity or origins of the suspect and how that may have borne influence on the actions of the suspect. In a complex-society such as Canada all immigrants and 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation settled immigrants have adapted their traditions and customs, with obvious implications in the Pharmaceutical and Mental-Health industries. It has been asserted that the suspect bears a name drawn from the Armenian language, but no foreign-national records nor immigration records have been cited. Speculation has been raised with regards to whether the suspect is a Dual-National. These questions are being asked, and if determined, these facts should be included in the article shouldn`t they?
Well, even if the suspect is Canadiite by birth, if the suspect had visited the middle-east (Armenia?), for whatever reson like visiting grandfolks or cultural program or suchlike, they usually say something like "the suspect may have been radicalised while visiting the middle-east". Or recruited or whatever. Secondly, about refugees FLEEING persecution in their old countries, (or even German immigrants in Armerica during WWII changed their names to flee discrimination against Germans), it is quite common that people Anglicise names. Why would it be different for Armenia? Either way, if the perpetrator had crossed borders, there SHOULD be a stamp in the passport, and that is important. If the perpetrator is a dual-national or has multiple passports, then you wouldnt find certain stamps in either/or. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 ( talk) 01:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Point taken, but if the perpetrator was of Irish or Colombian ethnicity a few decades ago, investigators would have examined any links to the IRA or FARC. Passport stamps are ryelevant.
The psycho-social implications of the terrorism of the (Armenian) holocaust, or sumthing? Oh yeah, about speculation, persons of Irish or Colombian extract are not offended by mention of the FACT that investigators have pursued such lines of inquiry, moreso than such lines of inquiry themselves. Same should hold with regards to Hebrew or Armenian ethnicities. And about whether Armenia is in a Muslim-region or the Middle-East or not.... anyone can take a bus from Brussels to Turkey and Turkey to Armenia, just like many of those so-called "jihadi-wives" did. AND, there would be a stamp in the passport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 ( talk) 02:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Get ready for it guys, it appears that Alek Minassian, the "suspect" who ran over & killed over 10 people and injuring many others. Arrived from Lebanon 6 months ago, devout Muslim, his facebook says from "Aleppo Syria" BernardZ ( talk)
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Quite disturbing.-- 2604:2000:1382:40D0:9CA8:8D7D:BAED:45EC ( talk) 00:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Technically it wasn't the van which decided to kill those people, it was the driver. And, he declared he did it out of sexual frustration. So, a better title would be "Toronto incel attack" or "Toronto sexual frustration attack." By the way, Elliot Rogers gave the same reason for his killing spree, as did the perps in the 2009 Collier Township shooting and the Akihabara massacre, among others. Wikipedia probably needs a category for "Spree killings motivated by sexual frustration" or "Incel spree killings." I'm serious, because these types of spree killings are likely going to continue to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.15.14 ( talk) 14:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
I added, as User:Kintetsubuffalo requested, a photo from the Commons - for Mel Lastman Square. Though the positioning is terrible. Perhaps someone who is better than that than me can improve that, before someone just deletes it. Hmm, I wonder if I have any on my phone ... probably too dark. Nfitz ( talk) 00:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
See here: List of disasters in Canada and List of disasters in Canada by death toll
The lists include homicides, such as the École Polytechnique massacre.
I believe that the Toronto van attack should be included. Johnny Au ( talk/ contributions) 01:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
The area in the Yonge and Sheppard Avenue that was attacked is called 'Mel Lastman Square.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Splashen ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Electoral Districts: Willowdale City Neighbourhoods: Newtonbrook East, Willowdale West, Willowdale East". Most people don't call it that, it's simply North York Centre. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
That is false. That area is definitely not "a predominantly Iranian part of Toronto", but is very multicultural, probably more than half are east Asian. Look at the list of victims. That "Gulf News" seems to have no knowledge of Toronto. 77Mike77 ( talk) 22:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
The lead of this article incorrectly stated that this is the worst mass killing in Canadian history since a arson attack on a hotel in 1989 that killed ten. This was clearly inaccurate, as the École Polytechnique massacre killed 15 and wounded 14, and it occurred in December 1989, more than likely after the hotel arson attack. Plus the original claim was obviously original research since neither source stated that fact definitively, just were listings of mass killings in Canada. On the other hand, I found an article from USA Today that directly states that this is the worst mass killing in Canada since École Polytechnique. Thus I amended the lead.
I also want to note the similarity in motive between Alek Minassian and Marc Lepine, both were sexually frustrated young white males who were radicalized into anti-feminism and violent misogyny over it, though obviously that can't be included in the article right now since it's OR and we are still determining the attacker's motive. Just something I found interesting. Reattacollector ( talk) 13:48, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Reattacollector: Actually, both sources( [3]; [4]) clearly state that the arson attack occurred on December 23, 1989, after the École Polytechnique massacre, which occurred on December 6, 1989. Regardless of whether or not the arson statement constitutes WP:OR, the USA Today source is clearly inaccurate, as the shooting occurred before the arson incident at the Rupert Hotel. Undescribed ( talk) 17:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
It is absurd to connect it to Lepine (I forget his true Iranian name), because Lepine's beef was that women were displacing men in fields like engineering, whereas Minassian's problem is that he couldn't get a date, which has nothing to do with feminism. Perhaps the media do this, but it is still ridiculous. 77Mike77 ( talk) 23:00, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
This is the first time I am seeing this word -- took me a bit to find out it is shorthand (apparently) for "involuntary celibate." I would like to suggest that if this is an actual (in-use) term, and if it is going to be used on this page (or any page), as it is alongside the supposed symbol for this condition (actually, here it is described as a "movement" -- which I think is not accurate), then there should be a link, an explanation, and at least one verified/legitimate reference to this term. Jdevola ( talk) 13:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
If you are discussing the use of the flag, please see above. If you intend to marry the flag and group, wait for clarified references, non-tabloid. The reference to the term is established, but not to the incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 14:02, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Covered up by the authorities of course. Toronto van attack: rightwingers point to Islamist terror before police cite motive
Nice quote here: Dan Cassino, a political scientist at Fairleigh Dickinson University who researches conservative media, said: “For commentators like these, coming out before the facts to blame an attack on Muslim is a no-risk proposition. If they’re right, they can say that they knew the truth while everyone else was too afraid to call it what it was. If it isn’t Islamic terrorism, they can call it a cover-up, and move on. Either way, they’re the only ones telling their audience the truth.”
Doug Weller talk 11:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
The misreports and alt-right conspiracy theories have received notable coverage so I think there is merit in mentioning them (and the fact that they are false) in the article. See for instance: [7], [8], [9](this last article also says "officials have not said anything publicly about Minassian’s ethnicity, religion or motive" which is more credible than the Gulf News claim). Dalek Monty ( talk) 12:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
(edited) Since these are living persons, I am not sure we really have their consent to list their names. After all, they do not qualify for a Wikipedia article on their own. Is listing their names critical to the article? Does anyone know about precedent and policy for this? Alaney2k ( talk) 13:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessary to list the names of the injured. Dalek Monty ( talk)£ —Preceding undated comment added 11:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
The media is saying it's an incel hub, but the r9k board does not use that term. They call themselves "robots" (after "Robot 9000"). "Incel" is a term that was popularized on Reddit and seems to have its home there. And 4channers tend to have hostility towards Reddit in general. This seems to be the media being sloppy, and not understanding the nuances of online communities. Which is pretty typical and common. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 15:27, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
At the bottom of a long NationalPost.ca article, there was a message, or statement, expressing condolences on behalf of the Armenian Community in Toronto. It should be included in the reaction section, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.160.80 ( talk) 14:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I am wondering if it is appropriate to label Minassian as a 25-year-old Canadian white male. We've seen his picture enough. I am not sure if we include 'white' as in white male in articles. In that case, Caucasian might be npov in this case? I don't see how the Jewish or the Armenian factors are relevant, but they have not been established by any reliable sources anyway. A mention in a website does not count. That someone has an Armenian-sounding name doesn't necessarily mean anything. His mother could be of some other ethnicity. If the family has been here for generations, they may not self-identify as Armenian. On hockey articles, we have had lots of authors claim so-and-so as xxx ethnicity, but there is rarely any solid evidence to bolster the point and we usually toss it. In this case, at first, there was some speculation about the attack being the day before the anniversary of the genocide 100 and some odd years ago, but there has been no evidence to bolster that, so Armenian is so far not relevant. As for the Jewish neighbourhood, there has not been any reports of ethnic conflict in that area that might make it relevant and no other evidence. To the best of my knowledge, the area is pretty quiet. We might be able to characterize the home neighbourhood by income level, but it has not been established how long the family has lived there, or really any detail about Minassian in any solid way. Has it yet been established that Minassian is a Canadian citizen/national? Alaney2k ( talk) 22:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
There were several news reports that another man that goes by the same Armenian name living in the same city as the defendant has been harassed by reporters; difference is spelled "Alex" in the more liberally used identity/name as opposed to the more specific identifying name as per the defendants spelling of "Alek". Use of this spelling was most certainly EXPLICIT, negating the idea that "If the family has been here for generations, they may not self-identify as Armenian." Sum it up, another young Canadian-Armenian from Toronto shares the same name (in Armenian), the Armenian Community of Toronto released a statement-of-condolences concerning the incident carried by the National Post; that`s certainly reference sufficient with which to have ascertained the article should mention "Armenya" or "Armenian". Now there is an Person Infobox as well as the Incident Infobox, one should think the more comprehensive data should be available; add this ( Armenian: ?, Armenian pronunciation: [?]) 126.161.149.9 ( talk) 14:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
The fact of the matter of the Thorn Hill high-school attended by the defendant Minassian is entirely relevent to the identity dynamics of the case. Whoever said its irrelevent probably didn`t go to school, have a first kiss on a first date, or otherwise learn how to "fit in". It is a well known fact, supported or unsupported, that Thorn Hill is a predominantly Jewish area of Ontario. The demographic of, oh, say, Old Colony Rd. in North York is obviously different to that of Thorn Hill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.172 ( talk) 13:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
That would be Alaney2k`s PERCEPTION of what is relevant; by that logic, the entire INCEL banter as well as the defendant being of The Toronto Armenian Community. Agenda or perception is entirely relative, but both the fact that the dude went to a predominantly Jewish high-school (a lot of life-changing events happen in high-school|fact) and the fact that the dude is listed as in the Armenian Community are even MORE PERTANENT than having visited an online community once. Its like people go to school EVERY day dude, and Church or Temple or wherever are like WEEKLY, right? How do you not get that? The context is there, its simply not on your agenda to find it. Please be more constructive in future. Meaow 126.161.151.172 ( talk) 15:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Going through a link run around of sources citing sources, none actually prove the account wasn't simply a 4chan prank made after the fact. I remember seeing the only post people ever saw, but was there actual verifiable activity on the account before the event, did the account even exist before the date of the attack? The central core of the incel narrative on this guy is thread bare. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.101.93.247 ( talk) 12:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Isn't it more editorially appropriate to have the names of victims appear in the article before the section about Minassian (as in the article for the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre)? Reading the names of the victims first helps frame it as a tragedy, whereas beginning with the incident and the suspect encourages un-compassionate fascination with the event Here's a relevant talk section from the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre article. Of the universe ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Unless Minassian posted on either r/incels or r/braincels, or Reddit in general, I'm not sure why controversial Reddit communities is in the "See also" section. It seems irrelevant and should be removed. Love of Corey ( talk) 07:57, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
"Author" of the attack? "Breaching" a red light? Maybe more conventional terms are appropriate. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 12:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks folks. Anna Frodesiak ( talk) 19:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Not the place to push conspiracy theories. Reso lute 23:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
There is a trend to cover a sexual-oriented conscious "self-identification" (incel conjecture) moreso than the conformist "self-identification" of his conscious use of his real name (Anglicised as Alek rather than Alex). This is not a balanced approach. If he did not identify as Armenian-Canadian, he would have changed his name. If he did not make a single post on Facebook concerning incel, he would not be identified as celibate. Surely he was not in the closet about that, and nor should the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.183.30 ( talk) 17:23, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
What, he really is Armenian...learned of violent overthrow in Armenia on the day(23rd April)....executed his "rebellion" on the day of the Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day...well he really would have been mad. yeah, and probably not right in the header to use Van so as not to offend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.189.183 ( talk) 18:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Apparently the National Post has released a statement from Canada`s Armenian Community Association offering prayers and condolences. I guess it IS relevent after all, eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.13 ( talk) 22:36, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
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For some reason, my correction of this omission does not show up. Is that section locked somehow? Very shabby to allow incorrect reportage to stand. 77Mike77 ( talk) 17:26, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Done. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 17:29, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/status/988505465553383424?s=19
Former NYC police commissioner reporting it as a terrorist attack. This would be useful to put on the page, if anyone can go in and edit it. Media here in Canada are doing a real disservice by releasing zero information. As we often do, I guess we'll get it from CNN or somewhere else before our own media tells us anything. Adtrace ( talk) 20:51, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Concur with Bearcat regarding foreign police quotes. Update tomorrow may include something from Canadian PM on Canadian media. [1]
References
What encyclopaedic information do these quotes convey beyond the final sentence of the preceding section "In the aftermath of the incident, messages of support and condolences came under the hashtag "#TorontoStrong"."? The flags are certainly not necessary and I'm struggling to think of a reason not to just remove the entire section. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:21, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
As a rule, the reactions should only include those people directly involved eg Prime Minister, city leader, etc with what happened otherwise what happens is that every country in the world and all major organisations can be included. BernardZ ( talk)
I think what we have at the momemnt is close to ideal - a prose summary of what the reactions were, a note that the directly relevent people have commented (city, provincial and national leaders) and that there have been international reactions. The quoted portion of the mayor's statement is the only non-proforma bit and that actually adds something to the article. This is followed by summaries of relevant physical reactions in prose form without excessive detail. If anybody major says or does something out of the ordinary, as determined by reliable secondary sources then we can consider adding that, but it should be in prose format. Thryduulf ( talk) 08:24, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Can use this instead of the generic photo if you want:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by LaserLegs ( talk • contribs) 21:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Is there any benefit to displaying the flag of the "movement" he is said to have identified with? -- Zanimum ( talk) 12:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps if it is a flag of Canada or Armenia, or perhaps if the "he said she said" of non-Canadian newspapers gets a credible source. New York Post (dubiously) indicated a CBN source, but it`s not coming up on a google or duckduckgo search. No benefit as of yet.
Flag of the group, the shoddy New York Post article, and the British tabliod (Sun) article shall be taken down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 13:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
No flags for anyone. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:45, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
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Shouldn`t we use his real name? It does not translate to English or French the same depending on Translator, but the Armenian is correct; "Ալեք Մինասյանն է" 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 14:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC) Oh yeah, another unreasonable denial of the suspects identity may be construed as having basis in the Toronto Human Rights Code as it protects against identifing people who may be targetted, for hate-crimes or something like holocaust-denial, but the guy was clearly arrested and identified already, so that arguement would apply equally to disclosure of whether he identified as LBGT celibate etc. etc. and it is STRONGLY recommended that the fact the guy is an Armenian-Canadian be PROMINENTLY noted in this article, lest further disservice be done by denying it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 15:06, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
so sorry if you misunderstand, what is the policy on using an individuals real name, and is it appropriate to follow policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 15:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
So it would be correct to include a "significant alternative name", or is that only for the French Canadian wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.165.35 ( talk) 16:09, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It will be fairly written here on wikipedia, compatible with policy affording multi-lingual proper usage of individuals names; that is also a Human Right, and must be afforded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 ( talk) 17:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
I found this precedent template: Alek Minassian I trust that helps improve the article, and complies with all policy without breaching the guys Human Rights to identify as he may, nor violate the rights of nor cause fear to other persons of Armenian extract, living or dead.
Alex Minasyan |
I'm not seeing this statement in the article referenced. What does this even mean? He can't use the prison phone to contact those injured? -- Zanimum ( talk) 16:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Detained persons in Canada (outside of immigration) are permitted several modes of communication generally; if there is no fear of destruction of evidence or witness tampering (they wouldn`t have charged him so quickly if they had not yet SECURED sufficient evidence); perhaps the defendants twitter and FB (or indeed other electronic means of correspondence) should not have been deactivated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.129.237 ( talk) 16:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The sentence is stupidly worded. 77Mike77 ( talk) 17:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
CBC News has official confirmation from Facebook that the "Incel Rebellion" post was genuine and was publicly posted to Minassian's account before Facebook deactivated it, as is their standard procedure. Currently in Tweet form ( https://twitter.com/CBCAlerts/status/988786051924791296), will likely filter through into news stories throughout the day. RA0808 talk contribs 14:51, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It was the FB account confirmed genuine, not the FB post, which may have passed as if it were made jokingly. This needs clarifying in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 24 April 2018 (UTC)
This Incel Rebellion stuff sounds like a 4chan prank to me. I'm very wary of it. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 17:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Brazilian media outlet Globo has published a third name [1]. Do we add this to the article? Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 22:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
As a note, the two sources given after this passage do not support either claim. This article supports that this was the deadliest mass slaying in (nearly three) decades, but do we have a cite for the deadliest ramming attack in Canadian history? Reso lute 23:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Any suggestions? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Why is it a pointless year? There's never been a van attack before in Toronto? Lots of mass shootings and attacks have the year pre-fixed.. We'll just have to change it again when there are more vehicle attacks in future. Meanwhile, there's no harm in using 2018 now. Regardless, this article should be titled either "Toronto_van_attack", or "2018_Toronto_van_attack", and the others should forward there, not vice versa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.91.136.100 ( talk) 05:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The correct and appropriate term for this should be recognized as "Toronto Vehicular Rampage Incident". Condolences 126.161.142.36 ( talk) 10:10, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
It seems that this was more of a "Rampage" or "Tragedy" of Vehicular manslaughter by an Armenian-Canadian in Toronto. Perhaps "2018 Toronto Rampage" (not to be CONFUSED with Montreal Rampage)
Guys... Toronto van attack. Not "TORONTO ATTACK". 23.91.136.100 ( talk) 05:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
There may have been several so-called attacks. Calling it just "Toronto Attack" as User:InedibleHulk did is just so inappropriate. There are possibly tens of so-called Toronto attacks. What makes this incident as "THEEEE attack of all attacks" Toronto has suffered from just baffles me. Mentioning the year as in "2018 Toronto Attack" may be more acceptable though not ideal either. "Toronto attack" has just to go. werldwayd ( talk) 05:00, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Article should be moved back to 2018 Toronto van attack. It is most appropriate as an encyclopedia title. "Toronto attack" is generic and does not accurately represent the subject. EelamStyleZ ( talk) 05:50, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, there are BILLIONAIRES of attacks (not limited to Toronto) so it may be a bit too GENERIC. You would have to be on DRUGS to call it that, I mean, even an Israeli girl once claimed her dog was attacked by her ex-boyfriend in the little electric car he bought for her but she didn`t like, A REVA, but that was a complicated attack because they were estranged. Just soo many examples, anyway, I see it`s been changed back to "Toronto Van Attack". Let`s see what they name the memorial tomorrow, could be a better choice of name.
"Van" should stay in the name, because it reflects how people are referring to it. Media sources are consistently calling it a "van attack" ( CBC, National Post, Globe and Mail), or occasionally "van rampage" ( Toronto Star). — Kawnhr ( talk) 18:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
If that comes from the Toronto Police or Prosecutor that would pass without objection; otherwise... 126.161.189.183 ( talk) 18:18, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Not a particularly appropriate line of inquiry. ansh 666 04:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Reporters were asking about the ethnicity or origins of the suspect and how that may have borne influence on the actions of the suspect. In a complex-society such as Canada all immigrants and 1st/2nd/3rd/4th generation settled immigrants have adapted their traditions and customs, with obvious implications in the Pharmaceutical and Mental-Health industries. It has been asserted that the suspect bears a name drawn from the Armenian language, but no foreign-national records nor immigration records have been cited. Speculation has been raised with regards to whether the suspect is a Dual-National. These questions are being asked, and if determined, these facts should be included in the article shouldn`t they?
Well, even if the suspect is Canadiite by birth, if the suspect had visited the middle-east (Armenia?), for whatever reson like visiting grandfolks or cultural program or suchlike, they usually say something like "the suspect may have been radicalised while visiting the middle-east". Or recruited or whatever. Secondly, about refugees FLEEING persecution in their old countries, (or even German immigrants in Armerica during WWII changed their names to flee discrimination against Germans), it is quite common that people Anglicise names. Why would it be different for Armenia? Either way, if the perpetrator had crossed borders, there SHOULD be a stamp in the passport, and that is important. If the perpetrator is a dual-national or has multiple passports, then you wouldnt find certain stamps in either/or. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 ( talk) 01:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Point taken, but if the perpetrator was of Irish or Colombian ethnicity a few decades ago, investigators would have examined any links to the IRA or FARC. Passport stamps are ryelevant.
The psycho-social implications of the terrorism of the (Armenian) holocaust, or sumthing? Oh yeah, about speculation, persons of Irish or Colombian extract are not offended by mention of the FACT that investigators have pursued such lines of inquiry, moreso than such lines of inquiry themselves. Same should hold with regards to Hebrew or Armenian ethnicities. And about whether Armenia is in a Muslim-region or the Middle-East or not.... anyone can take a bus from Brussels to Turkey and Turkey to Armenia, just like many of those so-called "jihadi-wives" did. AND, there would be a stamp in the passport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.149.59 ( talk) 02:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Get ready for it guys, it appears that Alek Minassian, the "suspect" who ran over & killed over 10 people and injuring many others. Arrived from Lebanon 6 months ago, devout Muslim, his facebook says from "Aleppo Syria" BernardZ ( talk)
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Quite disturbing.-- 2604:2000:1382:40D0:9CA8:8D7D:BAED:45EC ( talk) 00:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Technically it wasn't the van which decided to kill those people, it was the driver. And, he declared he did it out of sexual frustration. So, a better title would be "Toronto incel attack" or "Toronto sexual frustration attack." By the way, Elliot Rogers gave the same reason for his killing spree, as did the perps in the 2009 Collier Township shooting and the Akihabara massacre, among others. Wikipedia probably needs a category for "Spree killings motivated by sexual frustration" or "Incel spree killings." I'm serious, because these types of spree killings are likely going to continue to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.130.15.14 ( talk) 14:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
I added, as User:Kintetsubuffalo requested, a photo from the Commons - for Mel Lastman Square. Though the positioning is terrible. Perhaps someone who is better than that than me can improve that, before someone just deletes it. Hmm, I wonder if I have any on my phone ... probably too dark. Nfitz ( talk) 00:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
See here: List of disasters in Canada and List of disasters in Canada by death toll
The lists include homicides, such as the École Polytechnique massacre.
I believe that the Toronto van attack should be included. Johnny Au ( talk/ contributions) 01:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
The area in the Yonge and Sheppard Avenue that was attacked is called 'Mel Lastman Square.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Splashen ( talk • contribs) 19:16, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Electoral Districts: Willowdale City Neighbourhoods: Newtonbrook East, Willowdale West, Willowdale East". Most people don't call it that, it's simply North York Centre. Oaktree b ( talk) 15:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
That is false. That area is definitely not "a predominantly Iranian part of Toronto", but is very multicultural, probably more than half are east Asian. Look at the list of victims. That "Gulf News" seems to have no knowledge of Toronto. 77Mike77 ( talk) 22:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
The lead of this article incorrectly stated that this is the worst mass killing in Canadian history since a arson attack on a hotel in 1989 that killed ten. This was clearly inaccurate, as the École Polytechnique massacre killed 15 and wounded 14, and it occurred in December 1989, more than likely after the hotel arson attack. Plus the original claim was obviously original research since neither source stated that fact definitively, just were listings of mass killings in Canada. On the other hand, I found an article from USA Today that directly states that this is the worst mass killing in Canada since École Polytechnique. Thus I amended the lead.
I also want to note the similarity in motive between Alek Minassian and Marc Lepine, both were sexually frustrated young white males who were radicalized into anti-feminism and violent misogyny over it, though obviously that can't be included in the article right now since it's OR and we are still determining the attacker's motive. Just something I found interesting. Reattacollector ( talk) 13:48, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Reattacollector: Actually, both sources( [3]; [4]) clearly state that the arson attack occurred on December 23, 1989, after the École Polytechnique massacre, which occurred on December 6, 1989. Regardless of whether or not the arson statement constitutes WP:OR, the USA Today source is clearly inaccurate, as the shooting occurred before the arson incident at the Rupert Hotel. Undescribed ( talk) 17:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
It is absurd to connect it to Lepine (I forget his true Iranian name), because Lepine's beef was that women were displacing men in fields like engineering, whereas Minassian's problem is that he couldn't get a date, which has nothing to do with feminism. Perhaps the media do this, but it is still ridiculous. 77Mike77 ( talk) 23:00, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
This is the first time I am seeing this word -- took me a bit to find out it is shorthand (apparently) for "involuntary celibate." I would like to suggest that if this is an actual (in-use) term, and if it is going to be used on this page (or any page), as it is alongside the supposed symbol for this condition (actually, here it is described as a "movement" -- which I think is not accurate), then there should be a link, an explanation, and at least one verified/legitimate reference to this term. Jdevola ( talk) 13:41, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
If you are discussing the use of the flag, please see above. If you intend to marry the flag and group, wait for clarified references, non-tabloid. The reference to the term is established, but not to the incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.175.13 ( talk) 14:02, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Covered up by the authorities of course. Toronto van attack: rightwingers point to Islamist terror before police cite motive
Nice quote here: Dan Cassino, a political scientist at Fairleigh Dickinson University who researches conservative media, said: “For commentators like these, coming out before the facts to blame an attack on Muslim is a no-risk proposition. If they’re right, they can say that they knew the truth while everyone else was too afraid to call it what it was. If it isn’t Islamic terrorism, they can call it a cover-up, and move on. Either way, they’re the only ones telling their audience the truth.”
Doug Weller talk 11:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
The misreports and alt-right conspiracy theories have received notable coverage so I think there is merit in mentioning them (and the fact that they are false) in the article. See for instance: [7], [8], [9](this last article also says "officials have not said anything publicly about Minassian’s ethnicity, religion or motive" which is more credible than the Gulf News claim). Dalek Monty ( talk) 12:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
(edited) Since these are living persons, I am not sure we really have their consent to list their names. After all, they do not qualify for a Wikipedia article on their own. Is listing their names critical to the article? Does anyone know about precedent and policy for this? Alaney2k ( talk) 13:46, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's necessary to list the names of the injured. Dalek Monty ( talk)£ —Preceding undated comment added 11:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
The media is saying it's an incel hub, but the r9k board does not use that term. They call themselves "robots" (after "Robot 9000"). "Incel" is a term that was popularized on Reddit and seems to have its home there. And 4channers tend to have hostility towards Reddit in general. This seems to be the media being sloppy, and not understanding the nuances of online communities. Which is pretty typical and common. Harizotoh9 ( talk) 15:27, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
At the bottom of a long NationalPost.ca article, there was a message, or statement, expressing condolences on behalf of the Armenian Community in Toronto. It should be included in the reaction section, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.160.80 ( talk) 14:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I am wondering if it is appropriate to label Minassian as a 25-year-old Canadian white male. We've seen his picture enough. I am not sure if we include 'white' as in white male in articles. In that case, Caucasian might be npov in this case? I don't see how the Jewish or the Armenian factors are relevant, but they have not been established by any reliable sources anyway. A mention in a website does not count. That someone has an Armenian-sounding name doesn't necessarily mean anything. His mother could be of some other ethnicity. If the family has been here for generations, they may not self-identify as Armenian. On hockey articles, we have had lots of authors claim so-and-so as xxx ethnicity, but there is rarely any solid evidence to bolster the point and we usually toss it. In this case, at first, there was some speculation about the attack being the day before the anniversary of the genocide 100 and some odd years ago, but there has been no evidence to bolster that, so Armenian is so far not relevant. As for the Jewish neighbourhood, there has not been any reports of ethnic conflict in that area that might make it relevant and no other evidence. To the best of my knowledge, the area is pretty quiet. We might be able to characterize the home neighbourhood by income level, but it has not been established how long the family has lived there, or really any detail about Minassian in any solid way. Has it yet been established that Minassian is a Canadian citizen/national? Alaney2k ( talk) 22:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
There were several news reports that another man that goes by the same Armenian name living in the same city as the defendant has been harassed by reporters; difference is spelled "Alex" in the more liberally used identity/name as opposed to the more specific identifying name as per the defendants spelling of "Alek". Use of this spelling was most certainly EXPLICIT, negating the idea that "If the family has been here for generations, they may not self-identify as Armenian." Sum it up, another young Canadian-Armenian from Toronto shares the same name (in Armenian), the Armenian Community of Toronto released a statement-of-condolences concerning the incident carried by the National Post; that`s certainly reference sufficient with which to have ascertained the article should mention "Armenya" or "Armenian". Now there is an Person Infobox as well as the Incident Infobox, one should think the more comprehensive data should be available; add this ( Armenian: ?, Armenian pronunciation: [?]) 126.161.149.9 ( talk) 14:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
The fact of the matter of the Thorn Hill high-school attended by the defendant Minassian is entirely relevent to the identity dynamics of the case. Whoever said its irrelevent probably didn`t go to school, have a first kiss on a first date, or otherwise learn how to "fit in". It is a well known fact, supported or unsupported, that Thorn Hill is a predominantly Jewish area of Ontario. The demographic of, oh, say, Old Colony Rd. in North York is obviously different to that of Thorn Hill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.151.172 ( talk) 13:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
That would be Alaney2k`s PERCEPTION of what is relevant; by that logic, the entire INCEL banter as well as the defendant being of The Toronto Armenian Community. Agenda or perception is entirely relative, but both the fact that the dude went to a predominantly Jewish high-school (a lot of life-changing events happen in high-school|fact) and the fact that the dude is listed as in the Armenian Community are even MORE PERTANENT than having visited an online community once. Its like people go to school EVERY day dude, and Church or Temple or wherever are like WEEKLY, right? How do you not get that? The context is there, its simply not on your agenda to find it. Please be more constructive in future. Meaow 126.161.151.172 ( talk) 15:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Going through a link run around of sources citing sources, none actually prove the account wasn't simply a 4chan prank made after the fact. I remember seeing the only post people ever saw, but was there actual verifiable activity on the account before the event, did the account even exist before the date of the attack? The central core of the incel narrative on this guy is thread bare. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.101.93.247 ( talk) 12:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
Isn't it more editorially appropriate to have the names of victims appear in the article before the section about Minassian (as in the article for the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre)? Reading the names of the victims first helps frame it as a tragedy, whereas beginning with the incident and the suspect encourages un-compassionate fascination with the event Here's a relevant talk section from the Ecole Polytechnique Massacre article. Of the universe ( talk) 05:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Unless Minassian posted on either r/incels or r/braincels, or Reddit in general, I'm not sure why controversial Reddit communities is in the "See also" section. It seems irrelevant and should be removed. Love of Corey ( talk) 07:57, 21 April 2020 (UTC)