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Let's start again. There seems to be a consensus that per WP:BLP, the mugshot should not be in the infobox. On the issue of whether the image should be used at all, there is still a disagreement. The FUR covers the arrest period, and in my view the image is OK there. Can we have a straw poll on whether to keep it there, rather than to remove it altogether?-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
With every major shooting, it seems that some form of "violent" media is used as a scapegoat for the blame. The article for Columbine High School massacre details several musicians, movies and video games that allegedly inspired the shooters, including responses from the accused. So I came here and added several reactions from various musical groups and one video game creator to the "Aftermath and reactions" section with the proper citations, but it was removed almost immediately as being irrelevant. [1] I strongly disagree, and I would like for some other editors to weigh in on the matter. Thank you. Fezmar9 ( talk) 04:14, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I am deeply troubled and offended by the right and left wing partisans using the talk page of this tragedy to score points for their favored cable news network. Can we just put an end to this please. Let me make this simple for you: Fox is wrong and so is MSNBC. They are both using a tragedy as a political football. And so you are you. 24.61.171.248 ( talk) 15:42, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
From my perspective of having followed this story for a day and half from the U.S. east coast, I feel that it is time to start a new discussion about the title. I find the current title was "good enough" for the time period prior to charges being brought today. But, since federal charges were announced today, it is clear that the event is characterized as more than a shooting. It has been firmly established to have happened in Casas Adobes, outside Tucson. It happened in 2011 and it is customary to use such a style, as in 1993 shootings at CIA Headquarters or 7 July 2005 London bombings. However, I believe reliable sources are now focusing on the true nature of the shootings: a hybrid of an attempted political assassination similar to the Reagan assassination attempt and a massacre of innocents similar to the Dunblane massacre but closer in some respects to the United States Capitol shooting incident (1954) and the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre because it seems unlikely the gunman intended to kill himself as in Dunblane, but was both politically motivated and deranged.
Before readers of the above start to immediately find any dissimilarities from this event to each of those tragedies and begin to argue against what I have written, please stop: I am only suggesting that the current title is now obviously geographically inaccurate and not clear enough and should be revised. I am not offering any one of those listed as a model. But I do feel that the charges and what reliable sources are now focusing on suggests a move toward mentioning Gabrielle Giffords in the title as she was the first target of the shooter who then targeted other people at an event she was hosting. As I write this, the focus in news sources is on the attack being on Giffords. That is also what the evidence disclosed so far points to, although that released is subject to the focus of the people prosecuting the case being brought. It is not however up to us to dig further than what the reliable sources are all saying, and that is that this was an attempted assassination of Giffords and an attack on her event, combined.
So, I am leaving this here not to look for an immediate new title but to try to start the search for one with the goal of changing from the geographic to a motive-based focus in the title as are the reliable sources. What comes to mind are titles such as Gabrielle Giffords shooting or Giffords assassination attempt. Sswonk ( talk) 01:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The standard we should use is whatever will be the enduring common name. Until then... -- FormerIP ( talk) 03:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Within Arizona, the area where the incident occurred is referred to as North Tucson, even though it is not in the jurisdiction of Tucson proper. The area is part of the Tucson metropolitan area, and in fact, the Tucson, Arizona article refers to the intersection of Oracle and Ina (which is where the attack happened) as North Tucson. That said, the media is shifting more and more to calling this an assassination attempt, so I would too support a move to Gabrielle Giffords assassination attempt, as the congresswoman was the target of the attack per the FBI. (Reagan was not the only victim of his attempted murder, so I do not consider that name to be disrespectful to the other victims, who were targeted because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.) Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 06:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I was one of the first to say that the title is bad and should be changed. I did not advocate my choice but mentioned possible key points, like assassination attempt, maybe Safeway, etc. However, some (like Titoxd and Knowledgekid87) were loudly opposed. There is now ample evidence that the suspect did not target Judge Roll. It seems that "Giffords assassination attempt" is the most likely good title, far better than 2011 Tucson shootings. There are many possibilities far better than the current title. Hakkapeliitta ( talk) 01:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I am for title change. Giffords assassination attempt is the best. Current title is the worst; all other above suggestions are better. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 16:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
The current title is extremely off. I would support 'assassination attempt' or 'Arizona' or 'Tucson massacre' (which is very widely used in the media), but a simple specification of the current title would work as well (January 8, 2010 Tucson shooting). Almost anything is better than the current title. Swarm X 03:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I would oppose the change, since none of the other suggestions seem significantly better than the current one. For example Giffords assassination attempt is bad because this article is about all the murders that occurred in the shooting, not just about Gifford's assassination. Nanobear ( talk) 17:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't we wait for a recovery before any title with the word attempt is used? (She seems to be doing well and I wish her the best, but her recovery is not a sure thing). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Examinernumber9 ( talk • contribs) 08:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Lots of people have said it. The proposed title change as of January 18 will be Giffords assassination attempt. If you are angry and want 2011 Tucson shooting, say so here. Currently about 2/3 of editors are unhappy with the 2011 Tucson shooting title. About 1/4 of people are unhappy with assassination. That makes it the preferred term. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 17:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
All indications are that Giffords was the target and the shooter was mad at her. There is no indication that the shooter's actual primary target was the 9 year old girl. I can see that some don't like the word assassination since big people, like JFK are victims of that. Ordinary people are just murdered. However, the shooter is in really hot water, being charged with federal crimes, not just local crimes. Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 06:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Nah; from a world-perspective, it's the Tucson area, and 'assassination' should be used for for more significant persons; when you kill a president, it isn't murder. Murder is a tawdry little crime; it's born of greed, or lust, or liquor. Adulterers and shopkeepers get murdered. But when a president gets killed, when Julius Caesar got killed -- he was assassinated. Don't dilute the word. Besides, he (allegedly;) emptied the 30-round clip into all the others about. Sincerely, Jack Merridew 07:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
While we discuss possible changes, can we at least agree to change it to January 8, 2011 Tucson shooting, January 8 Tucson shooting, 2011 Tucson mass shooting, January 8 Tucson mass shooting, 2011 Casas Adobes shooting or Casas Adobes mass shooting? "2011 Tucson shooting" is absolutely absurd, it isn't the only shooting that took place in Tucson in 2011. While we don't need anything dramatic like "Arizona massacre" or "Giffords assassination attempt" for the time being, specifying when the shooting took place (January 8 instead of 2011) or which shooting we're talking about (Tucson mass shooting, Casas Adobes shooting) is absolutely necessary.
I would be in favor of Casas Adobes mass shooting above all, but any of my suggestions should be uncontroversial titles that only serve to specify the title of the article without doing any harm to it. The current title is much, much too broad. Swarm X 04:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's follow consensus and change the title. If you don't like it, propose another title Madrid 2020 ( talk) 16:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a mistake, it is shootings, not shooting. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 00:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
22:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
There are currently a number of discussions occurring as to whether the non-free image of Loughner can be justified in the main article about him. Given that, a second usage of the image certainly can't be justified per WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8. Black Kite (t) (c) 10:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
The closing admin made a small intresting rant that I think people should see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public reactions to the Giffords assassination attempt I think the article is a good idea if done right and renamed as proposed. Aftermath of the 2011 Tuscon Shooting is a name I saw being propsed. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 01:31, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe this quote by senate majority leader Harry Reid should be included in the article.He said that there was “no evidence partisan politics played any part in this monstrous attack [in Tucson, Ariz.," he added that he hoped his colleagues would use the opportunity to “return to the respect that has always been a part of this United States Senate." I think as senate majority leader that Reid and his opinion are an important part of the reaction. I think this quote really sums up the general sentiment of the reaction to the attacks, that perhaps there is no concrete evidence linking rhetoric to the attacks, but that people want to use this as an opportunity to tone the rhetoric down. The quote is here http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/139953-senate-leadership-takes-up-latent-issues 76.102.188.95 ( talk) 23:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Drag Reid into what? What are you talking about? I just feel Reid's quote should be included in the reaction section. I Don't understand your comment about having me post that Loughner is a wacko rather than the quote. Jon Stewart, Paul Krugman and Keith Obeirman's reactions are included and they aren't even in government, but Reid has to be in the house for his quote to be used? Reid is essentially saying the same thing the Jon Stewart quote says and thats included and I believe Reid is a more relative and meaningful source as senate majority leader as opposed to a comedian on a comedy central. 76.102.188.95 ( talk) 07:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I've been trying to include data from the recent Quinnipiac poll but I've been reverted twice, the objection being UNDUE. I'd like to hear some other opinions.
A Quinnipiac University poll of U.S. voters found that 40% felt the Tucson shooting could not have been prevented and 15% said it was due to overheated political rhetoric. The Quinnipiac poll also found that "Liberals rather than conservatives are more responsible for such rhetoric, voters say 36 - 32 percent".
Avanu and Brothejr - you guys are just too nice! The blame game started when Paul Krugman with no proof accused Palin and the Tea Party of complicity. This is called a blood libel. Democratic Sheriff Dupnik aided and abetted the blood libel with his unprofessional remarks. The New York Times, Dick Durbin and several other lefties are also guilty of the blood libel. Have they apologized yet? To his credit, Obama said, at the memorial, that the shooting was not due to any lack of civility. That, I notice, is not mentioned in the article either. The gunman is a head case with no definable political affiliation. The shooting was mostly a personal grudge against Giffords and a hatred of the world. The opinion polls, even before Obama spoke at the memorial, showed most people rejecting the idea that "overheated political rhetoric" had anything to do with the shooting. The Quinnipiac poll is the most dramatic -- only 15% of the US voters sampled thought the shooting was caused by overheated rhetoric. I just found it really interesting also that the same voters thought liberals were more likely to use overheated rhetoric than conservatives. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Andy, that was a rhetorical question. Based on what you said above, you should have removed it already because it's not cited in the media. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 20:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Abductive said "I removed this poll on the grounds that they only asked voters, a tactic guaranteed to skew the results." If Abductive can't explain how that works (I've asked more than once), I will be putting the Quinnipiac poll results back in. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 00:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Here's an indication that Quinnipiac knows what they're doing: Quinnipiac Polling 2010 Annual Report. At the top right it says something about "Quinnipiac most accurate . . . " from the NYTimes. I would say the burden of proof is on you two to show that Quinnipiac is inaccurate. Feel free to contact them directly with your questions about their methodology. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 17:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Please don't try pulling that "We have consensus" BS. We DO NOT have consensus on the Quinnipiac poll. Your reasons against it are not valid. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 03:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I added the poll to the RS notice board so we can at least get this absurd notion that the poll is flawed out of the way. RS Board Arzel ( talk) 04:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Seeing there seems to be an issue reguarding the content of the poll I am polling a consensus, please place Add or Do not Add with why you want or do not want the poll to be in the article. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 04:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
No consensus for any of the options. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → 8 January 2011 Tucson shooting — While we're discussing a completely different title to move this article to above (or whether to move it to a different title at all), the date of the shooting should be specified in the title. In line with all other articles about attacks (be it bombings, shootings etc.) either the victim of the attack or the date of the attack should be specified in the title (unless it's definitively the only attack of its kind in the year, of course). i.e. 2 January 2011 Baghdad shootings, September 11 attacks etc. This is not meant to be a resolution to the discussion for a permanent title to move it to, just a correction of the current title. Swarm X 17:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Why the hell are you people voting on this? I mean come on, since when do we do this on Wikipedia?! Seriously? Shame on all of you. Swarm X 01:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → Giffords assassination attempt is a better change. He doesn't need to be convicted as Reagan assassination attempt's Hinckley was not found guilty. Also, others were shot with Reagan, just like others were shot with Giffords. However, the dead 9 year old girl was not the assassination target. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 18:56, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
A Google news search on "jared loughner" brings up the following descriptions of the event. I used the first general reference to the event from each article. I stopped at 16 articles, but in none of these was the event generally described as 'assassination'. -- Avanu ( talk) 21:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for this information. As you can see, nobody refers to it as the 2011 Tucson shooting. Therefore, the current title must go. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 22:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → 2011 Tucson shootings Should be written in proper English. Shootings is better. Judge Roll was shot as well was Rep. Giffords.
From what I can tell, most of the editors are content with the current title (2011 Tucson shooting), even if it isn't perfect. Is it possible to ask an admin for a speedy close on these types of requests for a while? I realize that as more facts come out, it is entirely possible that the title might need to be changed, but for the time being, it simply seems that a few editors really just don't feel like acknowledging that the title is 'good enough for now'.
It just seems as if we are going around and around with the same arguments being repeated again and again.
Thanks, Avanu ( talk) 02:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the discussion, most editors are not content. If you look at the archives, more were not content. It doesn't matter much to me except it looks, from a foreigner's/non-native speaker, that shooting is grammatically incorrect. This is because news sources, like ABC News and The Economist, have proofreaders. ABC is American and The Economist is British. Also see http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/9/tucson-shootings-a-federal-case/ Nesteoil ( talk) 21:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that the more histrionic aspects of reporting ("massacre" and all) have died down, the most common reference I am seeing and hearing in the press is to call it a "mass shooting." That solves the singular versus plural issue, also that plural ("shootings") implies separate incidents. I suggest we consider moving to
2011 Tucson mass shooting.
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
14:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I regard the shooting as a combination of a targeted assassination shooting and an arbitrary mass shooting. Thus, a simple "Tucson shooting" title covers both aspects Alandeus ( talk) 17:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that the objection to the title is because it is rather vague; just a date and location. For this reason perhaps using an "event" title would be more appropriate. For example "2011 Tuscon 'Congress on Your Corner' shooting", or maybe "Gifford's Congress on Your Corner shooting". Perhaps even, "2011 Tuscon Safeway shooting" These too may be cumbersome, but in all fairness, I would think there were a number of other shootings in Tuscon in the month of January 2011, so the current title is understandable, just not particularly accurate. At this point the current title works for me, but just a suggestion for those who still might be uncomfortable with the current arrangement. -- Trippz 10:05, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I would like to propose that we change the name to use proper grammar (2011 Tuscon shootings) and create a disambiguation page for the other top ranked pages and have them point here, or just add redirects. If consensus can be agreed on this, I'd be happy to assist with the creating the redirects. I see no problem with 2011 Tucson Shootings, other titles including the specific date and anything representing Gabrielle Giffords is too specific. Remember to take into consideration that a federal judge and other people including other federal employees were shot and killed in this incident. Naming it just based off of the person that has the most notoriety and is the biggest news maker is not what we want to do. Rather i'd like to see if consensus can be reached on this proposal, and if not, I would submit an RfC on the matter. Ltcb2412 ( talk) 09:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
We have covered this ad nauseum in various sections above. It is PERFECTLY fine US English to call this 1 event a "shooting". I really do not understand the need to hash and re-hash it over and over, and additionally, as AndyTheGrump has said above, we can simply add redirects for any additional titles. Can we put this issue to bed finally? -- Avanu ( talk) 17:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I apologize, I must not have completely understood consensus on the above discussion. I would still like to keep the second part of the proposal on the table however, and create redirects for the other more popular titles, as to avoid confusion or ambiguity. I do agree however with Nesteoil in saying that a consensus was not truly reached there. We may have a majority of votes, however if you look at all the various title suggestions, there appears to be no clear cut consensus at this time. I'll withdraw my request for renaming, and simply leave the request for a consensus on which articles should be redirected here, and at the appropriate time down the road that we have more information, and we are aware of how the press is naming this tragedy, we can reinstate these discussions then. Ltcb2412 ( talk) 19:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
With the moves closed as no consensus I think the stick should just be dropped on this and a move on be made to improve the article, I boldly archived another discussion above as there were three discussions going on about the titlwe the oldest last being commented on 3 days ago. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 03:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The article Peter M. Rhee is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter M. Rhee until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Muboshgu ( talk) 15:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, why is it still blocked from editing? Any vandals who edited it would have long left, moving on to other news LOOONNNGGG ago. Is the vandalism that divine of an excuse it can be used forever to permanently end the article's Wikipedia progress (what makes an article a Wikipedia article is how anyone can edit it). 173.183.66.173 ( talk) 10:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I've re-move-protected it. Airplaneman ✈ 21:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
There are many, many details of this shooting. Giffords' head wound is one of them. It should be here because that's why people read the story. Currently, there is a consensus with one dissenter in the Giffords' article that the bio should not be overwhelmed by head wound details (citing 6 lines in Reagan and Biden's bio about their gunshot wounds or head surgery compared to 46 lines in Giffords, which is a much shorter article than Reagan).
The people who read this shooting article want to know about everything. If it gets too long, a sub-article can be written, if people want it. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 02:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's go through this and cut 33%. A lot of it is not needed.
For example, is this really needed?
At least one gunshot victim was transported to Northwest Medical Center, while the remaining injured were treated at University Medical Center in Tucson.[38]
So what? Northwest Medical Center is important?
The other possibility is to increase the article size by 100% or double it. This would be by adding useful information, not just more words. Either way, increase or decrease, it will take time and can't be done in 10 minutes. The pros of increasing the size is to bring more little details to the audience.
Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 04:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
We should decide because when the trial starts, there will be tons of information. It will range from the exact time that each police car came, where people were standing, who answered the 9-11 call, etc. We should decide now whether we want a tightly written summary or an article packed with so much detail. Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 05:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I just want to point out again, that this article is not that big in terms of text, per Talk:2011 Tucson shooting/Archive 4#Article size. It's the references adding most of the size. I say we cut down on the unneeded extra references first, and see how much size that gives us back. For example, with the lead, do we really need four sources attributed to the fact that Giffords's medical condition was initially described as "critical"? Flyer22 ( talk) 23:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
← This article is not overly long - the relevant size measure is readable prose, not total number of K. This article is presently about 25K of readable prose, well below the suggested length for featured articles, our gold standard. There's no justification for cutting out a random percentage - what is that suggestion based on? Having too many sources is also really not a valid argument - a good edit would preserve the variety of sources, just not reference each and every point with each and every source. But retain the variety of sources, as that makes for a richer article. But I don't see what the grievance is here, and I don't agree that the piece should be cut down in such a drastic manner. As for the eventual trial, we'll deal with that when it happens. There is no rush. And I totally disagree that we need to decide now whether we want an article "packed with details" or not - this is an organic process, and I've never seen decisions made in advance of events as to how they are going to be handled. We evaluate the situation at hand, see how editors write it, see what sources are available and what they say, and go from there. Not a pre-emptive "decision" as to how the article should be written. No policy or precedent for this that I know of, as several editors above have also pointed out. Tvoz/ talk 09:03, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
We are still edit warring over the Paul Krugman quote. Personally, I don't see this op-ed piece as so remarkable that it deserves an entire paragraph on its own. It makes points similar to the ones that are already included, and should be dropped.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
From the lead paragraph: "Twenty people were injured, nineteen from gunfire"
From the "Victims" section: "Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot."
Both have references, the first to both The Washington Post (which gives the 13/14 figure) and The New York Times (which gives the 19/20 figure). The second just references The Washington Post. Both sources were published on the same day, 14th January.
Obviously both cannot be right, but I don't know how to reconcile which is correct. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Now that the crime took place a while ago, we should decide how we should be heading.
Should this article be a nicely written summary? This could be called the short summary version.
Or should the article have lots of detail?
There is already disagreement about adding things and deleting things because of different/conflicting goals, two of which are mentioned above.
For example, there will be increasing detail about the shooter (alleged shooter - cmm'on there is no dispute that he did it only dispute to whether it was legally murder or legally some other kind of killing). Anyway, those who want a nicely written summary will undoubtedly take out information citing a number of reasons, like undue weight or needless detail.
Rather than have a battle, we should have a consensus to what kind of article we want. Long or short?
I am flexible. I slightly prefer long but will accept short if there is a suitable justification. However, we shouldn't have "long for the things I want and short for the things I don't want." That would be cherry picking and wikilawyering (using rules to justify bad choices) Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 02:47, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Just an explanation for my reversion of Kimchee's edits yesterday - there must have been some kind of glitch in the system, because when I looked at those edits, the page was jumbled and several photos weren't displaying - I reverted, but my edit summary also mysteriously vaporized. Gremlins at work, clearly. For the record, I have no problem with the changes as reinstated by Ianmacm. Sorry for any confusion! Tvoz/ talk 19:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I have renominated Daniel Hernandez Jr. for deletion (first AfD closed as no consensus), now that more time has passed and coverage has died down. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Hernandez Jr.. – Muboshgu ( talk) 14:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I have re-added the two removed referrences in the Political Climate section, for they were both from the Netherlands (in Dutch). One is from the Dutch public broadcaster, the other is from the Dutch commercial broadcaster. The referrences that were kept, are from the BBC (=United Kingdom), ARD (=Germany), and VRT (=Belgium). The latter is the public broadcaster of the Dutch-speaking community in Belgium (Flanders), so their main language is Dutch. Perhaps it was this that created confusion (as there were 3 sources/referrences in Dutch language)? If one source has to go, I'd go for the RTL-link, as this is the only commercial referrence. I do, however, think they all have to stay. Robster1983 ( talk) 11:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Just reviewing tonight, it has been a while since I looked at this article, but in this editor's opinion, it needs a lot of work and cleanup. It is full of bias and wording that really surprises me that made it into the article in the first place. I have tried to attempt a bit of a minor cleanup, but if anyone else has a hankerin' to clean it up, that would be fantastic. -- Avanu ( talk) 08:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I just went through the Aftermath section and removed the subheads which were well meaning, but were inhibiting the flow of the material presented there, all of which was interrelated; also rearranged it in more logical progression; also removed some POV that was added in recent edits, perhaps inadvertently. We are telling the story per sources as it was reported, and the early speculation regarding tea party, Palin, etc., was indeed as we describe and cite. These should not be described as "political reactions" - which is POV (makes a judgment about the reasons people were so speculating) - the simple "Speculation on causation" indicates that these theories were all speculation, but since they were fairly widespread and well-cited, it is completely appropriate to include here. Subsequent comments by pundits are also included, as well as Palin's own objections, in a neutral manner. I think all of this is important in understanding the story and how it was perceived at the time. Some time later perhaps there will be neutral analyses available from reliable sources that will give more perspective on the events. Happy to discuss this here, of course, but let's not get into a revert war. Tvoz/ talk 20:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
This is in the news today. The final launch of Space Shuttle Endeavour is scheduled for Friday 29 April, 2011. [9]
Too much of the article depends on language that is biased in favor of Giffords/Roll et al, and biased against Loughner. Terms like attacl need to be replaced with more neutral terms like incident. And more positive information about Loughner needs to be added. Jubulation911 ( talk) 20:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Concensious has not been reached. DO NOT REMOVE TAG Jubulation911 ( talk) 20:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
Let's start again. There seems to be a consensus that per WP:BLP, the mugshot should not be in the infobox. On the issue of whether the image should be used at all, there is still a disagreement. The FUR covers the arrest period, and in my view the image is OK there. Can we have a straw poll on whether to keep it there, rather than to remove it altogether?-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 19:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
With every major shooting, it seems that some form of "violent" media is used as a scapegoat for the blame. The article for Columbine High School massacre details several musicians, movies and video games that allegedly inspired the shooters, including responses from the accused. So I came here and added several reactions from various musical groups and one video game creator to the "Aftermath and reactions" section with the proper citations, but it was removed almost immediately as being irrelevant. [1] I strongly disagree, and I would like for some other editors to weigh in on the matter. Thank you. Fezmar9 ( talk) 04:14, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I am deeply troubled and offended by the right and left wing partisans using the talk page of this tragedy to score points for their favored cable news network. Can we just put an end to this please. Let me make this simple for you: Fox is wrong and so is MSNBC. They are both using a tragedy as a political football. And so you are you. 24.61.171.248 ( talk) 15:42, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
From my perspective of having followed this story for a day and half from the U.S. east coast, I feel that it is time to start a new discussion about the title. I find the current title was "good enough" for the time period prior to charges being brought today. But, since federal charges were announced today, it is clear that the event is characterized as more than a shooting. It has been firmly established to have happened in Casas Adobes, outside Tucson. It happened in 2011 and it is customary to use such a style, as in 1993 shootings at CIA Headquarters or 7 July 2005 London bombings. However, I believe reliable sources are now focusing on the true nature of the shootings: a hybrid of an attempted political assassination similar to the Reagan assassination attempt and a massacre of innocents similar to the Dunblane massacre but closer in some respects to the United States Capitol shooting incident (1954) and the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre because it seems unlikely the gunman intended to kill himself as in Dunblane, but was both politically motivated and deranged.
Before readers of the above start to immediately find any dissimilarities from this event to each of those tragedies and begin to argue against what I have written, please stop: I am only suggesting that the current title is now obviously geographically inaccurate and not clear enough and should be revised. I am not offering any one of those listed as a model. But I do feel that the charges and what reliable sources are now focusing on suggests a move toward mentioning Gabrielle Giffords in the title as she was the first target of the shooter who then targeted other people at an event she was hosting. As I write this, the focus in news sources is on the attack being on Giffords. That is also what the evidence disclosed so far points to, although that released is subject to the focus of the people prosecuting the case being brought. It is not however up to us to dig further than what the reliable sources are all saying, and that is that this was an attempted assassination of Giffords and an attack on her event, combined.
So, I am leaving this here not to look for an immediate new title but to try to start the search for one with the goal of changing from the geographic to a motive-based focus in the title as are the reliable sources. What comes to mind are titles such as Gabrielle Giffords shooting or Giffords assassination attempt. Sswonk ( talk) 01:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
The standard we should use is whatever will be the enduring common name. Until then... -- FormerIP ( talk) 03:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Within Arizona, the area where the incident occurred is referred to as North Tucson, even though it is not in the jurisdiction of Tucson proper. The area is part of the Tucson metropolitan area, and in fact, the Tucson, Arizona article refers to the intersection of Oracle and Ina (which is where the attack happened) as North Tucson. That said, the media is shifting more and more to calling this an assassination attempt, so I would too support a move to Gabrielle Giffords assassination attempt, as the congresswoman was the target of the attack per the FBI. (Reagan was not the only victim of his attempted murder, so I do not consider that name to be disrespectful to the other victims, who were targeted because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.) Titoxd( ?!? - cool stuff) 06:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
I was one of the first to say that the title is bad and should be changed. I did not advocate my choice but mentioned possible key points, like assassination attempt, maybe Safeway, etc. However, some (like Titoxd and Knowledgekid87) were loudly opposed. There is now ample evidence that the suspect did not target Judge Roll. It seems that "Giffords assassination attempt" is the most likely good title, far better than 2011 Tucson shootings. There are many possibilities far better than the current title. Hakkapeliitta ( talk) 01:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I am for title change. Giffords assassination attempt is the best. Current title is the worst; all other above suggestions are better. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 16:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
The current title is extremely off. I would support 'assassination attempt' or 'Arizona' or 'Tucson massacre' (which is very widely used in the media), but a simple specification of the current title would work as well (January 8, 2010 Tucson shooting). Almost anything is better than the current title. Swarm X 03:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
I would oppose the change, since none of the other suggestions seem significantly better than the current one. For example Giffords assassination attempt is bad because this article is about all the murders that occurred in the shooting, not just about Gifford's assassination. Nanobear ( talk) 17:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't we wait for a recovery before any title with the word attempt is used? (She seems to be doing well and I wish her the best, but her recovery is not a sure thing). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Examinernumber9 ( talk • contribs) 08:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Lots of people have said it. The proposed title change as of January 18 will be Giffords assassination attempt. If you are angry and want 2011 Tucson shooting, say so here. Currently about 2/3 of editors are unhappy with the 2011 Tucson shooting title. About 1/4 of people are unhappy with assassination. That makes it the preferred term. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 17:30, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
All indications are that Giffords was the target and the shooter was mad at her. There is no indication that the shooter's actual primary target was the 9 year old girl. I can see that some don't like the word assassination since big people, like JFK are victims of that. Ordinary people are just murdered. However, the shooter is in really hot water, being charged with federal crimes, not just local crimes. Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 06:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Nah; from a world-perspective, it's the Tucson area, and 'assassination' should be used for for more significant persons; when you kill a president, it isn't murder. Murder is a tawdry little crime; it's born of greed, or lust, or liquor. Adulterers and shopkeepers get murdered. But when a president gets killed, when Julius Caesar got killed -- he was assassinated. Don't dilute the word. Besides, he (allegedly;) emptied the 30-round clip into all the others about. Sincerely, Jack Merridew 07:04, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
While we discuss possible changes, can we at least agree to change it to January 8, 2011 Tucson shooting, January 8 Tucson shooting, 2011 Tucson mass shooting, January 8 Tucson mass shooting, 2011 Casas Adobes shooting or Casas Adobes mass shooting? "2011 Tucson shooting" is absolutely absurd, it isn't the only shooting that took place in Tucson in 2011. While we don't need anything dramatic like "Arizona massacre" or "Giffords assassination attempt" for the time being, specifying when the shooting took place (January 8 instead of 2011) or which shooting we're talking about (Tucson mass shooting, Casas Adobes shooting) is absolutely necessary.
I would be in favor of Casas Adobes mass shooting above all, but any of my suggestions should be uncontroversial titles that only serve to specify the title of the article without doing any harm to it. The current title is much, much too broad. Swarm X 04:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's follow consensus and change the title. If you don't like it, propose another title Madrid 2020 ( talk) 16:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
There is a mistake, it is shootings, not shooting. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 00:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
22:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
There are currently a number of discussions occurring as to whether the non-free image of Loughner can be justified in the main article about him. Given that, a second usage of the image certainly can't be justified per WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#8. Black Kite (t) (c) 10:32, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
The closing admin made a small intresting rant that I think people should see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Public reactions to the Giffords assassination attempt I think the article is a good idea if done right and renamed as proposed. Aftermath of the 2011 Tuscon Shooting is a name I saw being propsed. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 01:31, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe this quote by senate majority leader Harry Reid should be included in the article.He said that there was “no evidence partisan politics played any part in this monstrous attack [in Tucson, Ariz.," he added that he hoped his colleagues would use the opportunity to “return to the respect that has always been a part of this United States Senate." I think as senate majority leader that Reid and his opinion are an important part of the reaction. I think this quote really sums up the general sentiment of the reaction to the attacks, that perhaps there is no concrete evidence linking rhetoric to the attacks, but that people want to use this as an opportunity to tone the rhetoric down. The quote is here http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/139953-senate-leadership-takes-up-latent-issues 76.102.188.95 ( talk) 23:42, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Drag Reid into what? What are you talking about? I just feel Reid's quote should be included in the reaction section. I Don't understand your comment about having me post that Loughner is a wacko rather than the quote. Jon Stewart, Paul Krugman and Keith Obeirman's reactions are included and they aren't even in government, but Reid has to be in the house for his quote to be used? Reid is essentially saying the same thing the Jon Stewart quote says and thats included and I believe Reid is a more relative and meaningful source as senate majority leader as opposed to a comedian on a comedy central. 76.102.188.95 ( talk) 07:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I've been trying to include data from the recent Quinnipiac poll but I've been reverted twice, the objection being UNDUE. I'd like to hear some other opinions.
A Quinnipiac University poll of U.S. voters found that 40% felt the Tucson shooting could not have been prevented and 15% said it was due to overheated political rhetoric. The Quinnipiac poll also found that "Liberals rather than conservatives are more responsible for such rhetoric, voters say 36 - 32 percent".
Avanu and Brothejr - you guys are just too nice! The blame game started when Paul Krugman with no proof accused Palin and the Tea Party of complicity. This is called a blood libel. Democratic Sheriff Dupnik aided and abetted the blood libel with his unprofessional remarks. The New York Times, Dick Durbin and several other lefties are also guilty of the blood libel. Have they apologized yet? To his credit, Obama said, at the memorial, that the shooting was not due to any lack of civility. That, I notice, is not mentioned in the article either. The gunman is a head case with no definable political affiliation. The shooting was mostly a personal grudge against Giffords and a hatred of the world. The opinion polls, even before Obama spoke at the memorial, showed most people rejecting the idea that "overheated political rhetoric" had anything to do with the shooting. The Quinnipiac poll is the most dramatic -- only 15% of the US voters sampled thought the shooting was caused by overheated rhetoric. I just found it really interesting also that the same voters thought liberals were more likely to use overheated rhetoric than conservatives. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 17:31, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Andy, that was a rhetorical question. Based on what you said above, you should have removed it already because it's not cited in the media. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 20:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Abductive said "I removed this poll on the grounds that they only asked voters, a tactic guaranteed to skew the results." If Abductive can't explain how that works (I've asked more than once), I will be putting the Quinnipiac poll results back in. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 00:38, 17 January 2011 (UTC)
Here's an indication that Quinnipiac knows what they're doing: Quinnipiac Polling 2010 Annual Report. At the top right it says something about "Quinnipiac most accurate . . . " from the NYTimes. I would say the burden of proof is on you two to show that Quinnipiac is inaccurate. Feel free to contact them directly with your questions about their methodology. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 17:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Please don't try pulling that "We have consensus" BS. We DO NOT have consensus on the Quinnipiac poll. Your reasons against it are not valid. -- Kenatipo ( talk) 03:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I added the poll to the RS notice board so we can at least get this absurd notion that the poll is flawed out of the way. RS Board Arzel ( talk) 04:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Seeing there seems to be an issue reguarding the content of the poll I am polling a consensus, please place Add or Do not Add with why you want or do not want the poll to be in the article. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 04:25, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
No consensus for any of the options. Vegaswikian ( talk) 03:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → 8 January 2011 Tucson shooting — While we're discussing a completely different title to move this article to above (or whether to move it to a different title at all), the date of the shooting should be specified in the title. In line with all other articles about attacks (be it bombings, shootings etc.) either the victim of the attack or the date of the attack should be specified in the title (unless it's definitively the only attack of its kind in the year, of course). i.e. 2 January 2011 Baghdad shootings, September 11 attacks etc. This is not meant to be a resolution to the discussion for a permanent title to move it to, just a correction of the current title. Swarm X 17:16, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Why the hell are you people voting on this? I mean come on, since when do we do this on Wikipedia?! Seriously? Shame on all of you. Swarm X 01:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → Giffords assassination attempt is a better change. He doesn't need to be convicted as Reagan assassination attempt's Hinckley was not found guilty. Also, others were shot with Reagan, just like others were shot with Giffords. However, the dead 9 year old girl was not the assassination target. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 18:56, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
A Google news search on "jared loughner" brings up the following descriptions of the event. I used the first general reference to the event from each article. I stopped at 16 articles, but in none of these was the event generally described as 'assassination'. -- Avanu ( talk) 21:53, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for this information. As you can see, nobody refers to it as the 2011 Tucson shooting. Therefore, the current title must go. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 22:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
2011 Tucson shooting → 2011 Tucson shootings Should be written in proper English. Shootings is better. Judge Roll was shot as well was Rep. Giffords.
From what I can tell, most of the editors are content with the current title (2011 Tucson shooting), even if it isn't perfect. Is it possible to ask an admin for a speedy close on these types of requests for a while? I realize that as more facts come out, it is entirely possible that the title might need to be changed, but for the time being, it simply seems that a few editors really just don't feel like acknowledging that the title is 'good enough for now'.
It just seems as if we are going around and around with the same arguments being repeated again and again.
Thanks, Avanu ( talk) 02:56, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the discussion, most editors are not content. If you look at the archives, more were not content. It doesn't matter much to me except it looks, from a foreigner's/non-native speaker, that shooting is grammatically incorrect. This is because news sources, like ABC News and The Economist, have proofreaders. ABC is American and The Economist is British. Also see http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jan/9/tucson-shootings-a-federal-case/ Nesteoil ( talk) 21:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Now that the more histrionic aspects of reporting ("massacre" and all) have died down, the most common reference I am seeing and hearing in the press is to call it a "mass shooting." That solves the singular versus plural issue, also that plural ("shootings") implies separate incidents. I suggest we consider moving to
2011 Tucson mass shooting.
PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►
TALK
14:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I regard the shooting as a combination of a targeted assassination shooting and an arbitrary mass shooting. Thus, a simple "Tucson shooting" title covers both aspects Alandeus ( talk) 17:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems that the objection to the title is because it is rather vague; just a date and location. For this reason perhaps using an "event" title would be more appropriate. For example "2011 Tuscon 'Congress on Your Corner' shooting", or maybe "Gifford's Congress on Your Corner shooting". Perhaps even, "2011 Tuscon Safeway shooting" These too may be cumbersome, but in all fairness, I would think there were a number of other shootings in Tuscon in the month of January 2011, so the current title is understandable, just not particularly accurate. At this point the current title works for me, but just a suggestion for those who still might be uncomfortable with the current arrangement. -- Trippz 10:05, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I would like to propose that we change the name to use proper grammar (2011 Tuscon shootings) and create a disambiguation page for the other top ranked pages and have them point here, or just add redirects. If consensus can be agreed on this, I'd be happy to assist with the creating the redirects. I see no problem with 2011 Tucson Shootings, other titles including the specific date and anything representing Gabrielle Giffords is too specific. Remember to take into consideration that a federal judge and other people including other federal employees were shot and killed in this incident. Naming it just based off of the person that has the most notoriety and is the biggest news maker is not what we want to do. Rather i'd like to see if consensus can be reached on this proposal, and if not, I would submit an RfC on the matter. Ltcb2412 ( talk) 09:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
We have covered this ad nauseum in various sections above. It is PERFECTLY fine US English to call this 1 event a "shooting". I really do not understand the need to hash and re-hash it over and over, and additionally, as AndyTheGrump has said above, we can simply add redirects for any additional titles. Can we put this issue to bed finally? -- Avanu ( talk) 17:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I apologize, I must not have completely understood consensus on the above discussion. I would still like to keep the second part of the proposal on the table however, and create redirects for the other more popular titles, as to avoid confusion or ambiguity. I do agree however with Nesteoil in saying that a consensus was not truly reached there. We may have a majority of votes, however if you look at all the various title suggestions, there appears to be no clear cut consensus at this time. I'll withdraw my request for renaming, and simply leave the request for a consensus on which articles should be redirected here, and at the appropriate time down the road that we have more information, and we are aware of how the press is naming this tragedy, we can reinstate these discussions then. Ltcb2412 ( talk) 19:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
With the moves closed as no consensus I think the stick should just be dropped on this and a move on be made to improve the article, I boldly archived another discussion above as there were three discussions going on about the titlwe the oldest last being commented on 3 days ago. - Knowledgekid87 ( talk) 03:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The article Peter M. Rhee is being discussed concerning whether it is suitable for inclusion as an article according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Peter M. Rhee until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. -- Muboshgu ( talk) 15:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, why is it still blocked from editing? Any vandals who edited it would have long left, moving on to other news LOOONNNGGG ago. Is the vandalism that divine of an excuse it can be used forever to permanently end the article's Wikipedia progress (what makes an article a Wikipedia article is how anyone can edit it). 173.183.66.173 ( talk) 10:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
I've re-move-protected it. Airplaneman ✈ 21:52, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
There are many, many details of this shooting. Giffords' head wound is one of them. It should be here because that's why people read the story. Currently, there is a consensus with one dissenter in the Giffords' article that the bio should not be overwhelmed by head wound details (citing 6 lines in Reagan and Biden's bio about their gunshot wounds or head surgery compared to 46 lines in Giffords, which is a much shorter article than Reagan).
The people who read this shooting article want to know about everything. If it gets too long, a sub-article can be written, if people want it. Madrid 2020 ( talk) 02:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Let's go through this and cut 33%. A lot of it is not needed.
For example, is this really needed?
At least one gunshot victim was transported to Northwest Medical Center, while the remaining injured were treated at University Medical Center in Tucson.[38]
So what? Northwest Medical Center is important?
The other possibility is to increase the article size by 100% or double it. This would be by adding useful information, not just more words. Either way, increase or decrease, it will take time and can't be done in 10 minutes. The pros of increasing the size is to bring more little details to the audience.
Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 04:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
We should decide because when the trial starts, there will be tons of information. It will range from the exact time that each police car came, where people were standing, who answered the 9-11 call, etc. We should decide now whether we want a tightly written summary or an article packed with so much detail. Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 05:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
I just want to point out again, that this article is not that big in terms of text, per Talk:2011 Tucson shooting/Archive 4#Article size. It's the references adding most of the size. I say we cut down on the unneeded extra references first, and see how much size that gives us back. For example, with the lead, do we really need four sources attributed to the fact that Giffords's medical condition was initially described as "critical"? Flyer22 ( talk) 23:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
← This article is not overly long - the relevant size measure is readable prose, not total number of K. This article is presently about 25K of readable prose, well below the suggested length for featured articles, our gold standard. There's no justification for cutting out a random percentage - what is that suggestion based on? Having too many sources is also really not a valid argument - a good edit would preserve the variety of sources, just not reference each and every point with each and every source. But retain the variety of sources, as that makes for a richer article. But I don't see what the grievance is here, and I don't agree that the piece should be cut down in such a drastic manner. As for the eventual trial, we'll deal with that when it happens. There is no rush. And I totally disagree that we need to decide now whether we want an article "packed with details" or not - this is an organic process, and I've never seen decisions made in advance of events as to how they are going to be handled. We evaluate the situation at hand, see how editors write it, see what sources are available and what they say, and go from there. Not a pre-emptive "decision" as to how the article should be written. No policy or precedent for this that I know of, as several editors above have also pointed out. Tvoz/ talk 09:03, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
We are still edit warring over the Paul Krugman quote. Personally, I don't see this op-ed piece as so remarkable that it deserves an entire paragraph on its own. It makes points similar to the ones that are already included, and should be dropped.-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 11:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
From the lead paragraph: "Twenty people were injured, nineteen from gunfire"
From the "Victims" section: "Thirteen people were wounded in the attack; a fourteenth person was injured at the scene, but was determined not to have been shot."
Both have references, the first to both The Washington Post (which gives the 13/14 figure) and The New York Times (which gives the 19/20 figure). The second just references The Washington Post. Both sources were published on the same day, 14th January.
Obviously both cannot be right, but I don't know how to reconcile which is correct. Thryduulf ( talk) 23:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Now that the crime took place a while ago, we should decide how we should be heading.
Should this article be a nicely written summary? This could be called the short summary version.
Or should the article have lots of detail?
There is already disagreement about adding things and deleting things because of different/conflicting goals, two of which are mentioned above.
For example, there will be increasing detail about the shooter (alleged shooter - cmm'on there is no dispute that he did it only dispute to whether it was legally murder or legally some other kind of killing). Anyway, those who want a nicely written summary will undoubtedly take out information citing a number of reasons, like undue weight or needless detail.
Rather than have a battle, we should have a consensus to what kind of article we want. Long or short?
I am flexible. I slightly prefer long but will accept short if there is a suitable justification. However, we shouldn't have "long for the things I want and short for the things I don't want." That would be cherry picking and wikilawyering (using rules to justify bad choices) Ryan White Jr. ( talk) 02:47, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Just an explanation for my reversion of Kimchee's edits yesterday - there must have been some kind of glitch in the system, because when I looked at those edits, the page was jumbled and several photos weren't displaying - I reverted, but my edit summary also mysteriously vaporized. Gremlins at work, clearly. For the record, I have no problem with the changes as reinstated by Ianmacm. Sorry for any confusion! Tvoz/ talk 19:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I have renominated Daniel Hernandez Jr. for deletion (first AfD closed as no consensus), now that more time has passed and coverage has died down. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Hernandez Jr.. – Muboshgu ( talk) 14:10, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
I have re-added the two removed referrences in the Political Climate section, for they were both from the Netherlands (in Dutch). One is from the Dutch public broadcaster, the other is from the Dutch commercial broadcaster. The referrences that were kept, are from the BBC (=United Kingdom), ARD (=Germany), and VRT (=Belgium). The latter is the public broadcaster of the Dutch-speaking community in Belgium (Flanders), so their main language is Dutch. Perhaps it was this that created confusion (as there were 3 sources/referrences in Dutch language)? If one source has to go, I'd go for the RTL-link, as this is the only commercial referrence. I do, however, think they all have to stay. Robster1983 ( talk) 11:58, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Just reviewing tonight, it has been a while since I looked at this article, but in this editor's opinion, it needs a lot of work and cleanup. It is full of bias and wording that really surprises me that made it into the article in the first place. I have tried to attempt a bit of a minor cleanup, but if anyone else has a hankerin' to clean it up, that would be fantastic. -- Avanu ( talk) 08:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I just went through the Aftermath section and removed the subheads which were well meaning, but were inhibiting the flow of the material presented there, all of which was interrelated; also rearranged it in more logical progression; also removed some POV that was added in recent edits, perhaps inadvertently. We are telling the story per sources as it was reported, and the early speculation regarding tea party, Palin, etc., was indeed as we describe and cite. These should not be described as "political reactions" - which is POV (makes a judgment about the reasons people were so speculating) - the simple "Speculation on causation" indicates that these theories were all speculation, but since they were fairly widespread and well-cited, it is completely appropriate to include here. Subsequent comments by pundits are also included, as well as Palin's own objections, in a neutral manner. I think all of this is important in understanding the story and how it was perceived at the time. Some time later perhaps there will be neutral analyses available from reliable sources that will give more perspective on the events. Happy to discuss this here, of course, but let's not get into a revert war. Tvoz/ talk 20:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
This is in the news today. The final launch of Space Shuttle Endeavour is scheduled for Friday 29 April, 2011. [9]
Too much of the article depends on language that is biased in favor of Giffords/Roll et al, and biased against Loughner. Terms like attacl need to be replaced with more neutral terms like incident. And more positive information about Loughner needs to be added. Jubulation911 ( talk) 20:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Concensious has not been reached. DO NOT REMOVE TAG Jubulation911 ( talk) 20:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)