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Randy Melchert's right-wing Christian apologetics blog is not an acceptable source. Christian trolls keep trying to add it. It's pure propaganda, It's nonsense, and it's a BLOG. A BLOG folks. Stop it. Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk) 20:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The attacker was not a muslim but a self declared conservative christian: http://www.solidprinciples.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Anders-Behring-Breivik-FACEBOOK.pdf -- 82.113.99.150 ( talk) 05:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Wrong 82.113.99.150. What's the matter with you? Determined to extract political mileage from this unspeakable act are you? You are not only flat-out wrong, you are also wrong to make such a claim in the first place. No one and nothing "makes" someone else do these kinds of horrific things. His own mental illness made him "do it," which is why there shouldn't be anything called "temporary insanity" as a defense to killing another human being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 ( talk) 00:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The listed Israeli reaction doesn't appear to a valid news source. A Google search turns up nothing for "Jerusalem One", and I don't think a Tweet counts as official national reaction. I'm removing the listing. Windward1 ( talk) 06:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The article also cites an Aftenposten article implying a relationship between islamphobia and support for Israel. I don't understand Norwegian, could someone check if the Aftenposten actually implied a relationship? If so, could someone explain what that relationship is, since in and of itself, the citation makes Aftenposten seem to have an anti-jewish prejudice? Is this actually the case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.116.249.117 ( talk) 19:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
delete this part now! and how is the article that "showes" the sentence is from 2009? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsraeliUpdater ( talk • contribs) 23:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL'S REACTION TO THE NORWEGIAN ATTACKS: http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/peres-to-norway-s-king-massacre-broke-our-hearts-in-israel-1.374996 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.173.27 ( talk) 14:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
In the "Political and religious views" section about the terrorist's motivation, just 3 paragraphs long, Israel was mentioned six (!) times, and Judaism a few times more. This is absolutely ridiculous - this is a Norwegian terrorist in Norway, that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, Israelis, or Jews. I can't belive his motivation had anything to do with Israel - it just doesn't make any sense! And I don't see any sources quoted to claim that it did have anything to do with Israel.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4099122,00.html 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 21:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Please edit this story carefully, media is often unreliable in the early stages of reporting an event.
One or more editors have added the claim that The shooting spree was the deadliest in modern Western history (assuming civilian victims), and the biggest act of violence in Norway since 1945..
I've removed this [1] ; although they've cited refs, I see this as original research / novel synthesis, because I have not seen reliable sources making the claim.
Discussion, of course, welcome. 07:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Why was the original version of this statement removed in the first place?. How exactly is it sensationalist? It's rather vital to discussing the subject by placing it in context. And more to the point it was removed for supposedly not being in the source yet it blatantly is!
"(CBS/AP)OSLO, Norway - A homegrown terrorist set off a deadly explosion in downtown Oslo before heading to a summer camp dressed as a police officer to commit one of the deadliest shooting sprees in history, killing at least 80 people as terrified youths ran and even swam for their lives, police said Friday." ChiZeroOne ( talk) 13:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The Prime Minister himself has characterized the attacks in exactly that fashion: "The deadliest attacks [in the nation] since World War II" Surely you're not likely to find a more credible source to make that distinction. I'll try to relocate a link to the relevant press conference. 67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
There are a wide number of separate sources now saying this was the deadliest shooting spree in history. Some of the sources: Utøya: Historiens verste drapsmassakre ( Verdens Gang), Norway reels from world's worst-ever mass shooting as police quiz Anders Breivik over deaths of 91 people ( The Daily Telegraph (Australia)), Kan være det verste hatangrepet verden har sett ( E24 Næringsliv), Norway killings: the quiet and modest man who became peacetime Europe's worst mass killer ( The Daily Telegraph), Minst 85 drept på Utøya ( Bergens tidende). Maybe it's time too add this? Keeps getting removed when somebody adds it. And the numbers in the List of rampage killers speak for themselves. -- Miceagol ( talk) 12:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Why has this been called a terrorist attack? It's a nutter that's gone berserk. You wouldn't call Derrick Bird a terrorist would you? Needs to be changed in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.41.208 ( talk) 10:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
You don't need to be of arab descent or a muslim to be a terrorist. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡælˈeːrɛz/) [1] 13:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Are we seriously having a debate here about whether the bombing of three of a government's most senior ministry buildings, followed by a mass shooting spree at a youth camp that was sponsored by the dominant political party, all seemingly carried out by a man with a radical political, religious, and ethnic ideology qualifies as terrorism? Seriously? I think I would sooner classify E. coli as "maybe" bacteria than I would consider these acts "maybe" terrorism. 67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
Like user Hordaland wrote the person arrested is currently charged (so far) for terrorism in accordance to the Norwegian law paragraph §147a that covers this and can give up to 21 years prison. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181167.ece http://www.lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#map018 - Laniala ( talk) 19:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norway's NRK television channel:
He wanted a change in society and, from his perspective, he needed to force through a revolution ... He wished to attack society and the structure of society. He explained that it was cruel but that he had to go through with these acts." http://news.sky.com/skynews
The motive was political so it was terrorism - even if carried out by one person acting alone. Stanley Oliver ( talk) 17:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
From what I have read, there is no reason to label this as a terrorist attack. The attacker has not released any statements regarding why he went on a killing spree, so any tie with his political views is only speculation at this time. Terrorism, to my mine, also implies the use of fear of a future attack as a tool to achieve a particular goal, but since there are no threats of future attacks from this person, there is now no "terror". Therefore the attacker is not a "terrorist" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.214.130 ( talk) 23:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I am suspecting that the motive was not terror, but to get attention, and he found controversial politics to be the easiest way to get himself into the limelight. He might just as easily been upset by a bad episode of his favorite show on Television, and gone off and killed nearly 100 actors and actresses. Or perhaps upset himself because there was a picture of a dog on Norway's postage stamps, and he likes cats. 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 00:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 05:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
The revision of this article I looked at a few seconds ago does not contain the words "Christian" or "Christianity" even once, despite Anders Behring Breivik's self-identification as a Christian. Look up another terrorist attack of your choice (e.g. 9/11, Madrid bombings, London bombings) and see how many times the words "Islam", "Islamic", "Islamist" and "Muslim" appear. This is shameful, Wikipedia. 82.32.186.24 ( talk) 11:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Christianity played no part in this in the same way that a pope isn't responsible for his crusade, please. A self proclaimed knight Templar showing reverence to crusades of old and committing his atrocities with a cross displayed on his chest, be proud; the christian skin heads will be at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.99.179 ( talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He acted in an un-Christian way! 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 19:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
(Someone was so "stung" by my comment they removed it. What is it about the truth which some find so objectionable? Here, allow me to put it back.)
You liberals, who hijack Wikipedia over your own, personal bias so often it's lost all hope of ever meeting the spirit behind the NPOV bar set by its founders, can hardly WAIT to hang "Christian Conservative" around the neck of this psychopathic killer, can you? "Christians" are pro-life, and "Conservatives" are pro-individual, remember? Try, if you can, to recall it was Republican lawmakers who were responsible for the overwhelming majority of the anti-slavery bills introduced to the U.S. Congress before the Civil War, while Democratic lawmakers were responsible for the overwhelming majority of attempts to kill those bills, just like it is today when it comes to murdering unborn children. This nutcase is no more a "Christian Conservative" than Obama is either of them, though the truth hardly matters when you insist others live (or not) by your One World View, does it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 ( talk) 03:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 04:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I realize that the shooter's self-proclaimed associations are true and verifiable, and I see how they are being handled in the article. I'd like to point out that Christianity is a well-defined term, defined by Christ and documented in the Bible. "Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples". I don't think it's too radical to say that Jesus and the Bible are the authoritative sources on who or what is and is not Christian. OhSqueezy ( talk) 01:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The old version said that he was an admirer of Mill, but we know that he only quoted Mill on his twitter account. The quote is "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests". I've changed it to reflect this. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080610-- Havermayer ( talk) 12:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
He also listed Mill's On Liberty in his favorite books on Facebook. Lolilith ( talk) 19:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Experts on the subject recommend not publishing pictures of spree killers to avoid encouraging copycat killings. I'm not entirely comfortable with Wikipedia breaking that guideline. As the picture is also nominated for deletion can we remove it soon? The mayor of Yurp ( talk) 17:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
He's on the front page of every newspaper, so I think it's too late anyway. Ketil ( talk) 21:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Yaa, let's leave Osama bin Laden's face up, but take this white conservatives face down. That way the only mass murderer faces we'll see will be brown. Great idea! I vote to do this! Adelson Velsky Landis ( talk) 22:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
In my point of view, it would be vastly exaggerated to remove all picture of mass murderes from encyclopaedias. Pictures can be an important part of a wikipedia article. In the case of Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein and others, knowing their pictures can even be considered as general education. Nevertheless, knowing about the threat of copycat crimes and in the will of writing an informative encyclopaedia, we should carefully think about what information bonus a picture gives. A self-glorifying picture with a weapon is anything, but not informative. It is intended to arouse feelings - and that's what it actually does. In this case there should be really good reasons that support the depicture - otherwise it would be better (and also, it would NOT be a loss!) to prefer other pictures over those who support a positive-biased view of the offender. Thank you very much for consideration! -- 131.188.24.42 ( talk) 10:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
As noted bellow, we now have an alternative image, a candid picture taken as Breivik was brought in for his arraignment: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080747
Also, it's become known (and I'm looking for a source to validate this now), that Breivik had the existing photos taken professionally as part of his attempt to 'market' his crimes and trial as a means of recruiting others to his cause. Given the reservations that some here had already expressed concerning the photos, which seem all the more valid now, and given the fact the facebook photos now very likely violate wikipedia's licensing guidelines with a free-equivalent photo available, I think perhaps these photos (or at least the gun-totting one) should be removed and replaced with this new candid and public domain shot, even though the smug douche's smile in this new photo makes me want to wretch. Snow Rise ( talk) 15:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the sentence saying that he was an admirer of them. The reason being that he only listed them as interests on fb, which doesn't necessarily mean he admired them. We just don't know. I'm waiting for more sources on this. -- Havermayer ( talk) 18:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
This has been widely reported and is reliably sourced. We cannot rely on your interpretation of whether it's correct, only on what reliable sources report. JonFlaune ( talk) 19:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Why insult Winston and Max! Anders’ words on his Facebook page are not WP:RS. We need a stronger sorce. 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 19:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Nonsense. We are not using Facebook as a source at all. We are using reliable sources (currently El Mundo (Spain) and the Herald Sun, but hundreds of others pointing this out can be found). It doesn't matter if you find the material offensive, because Wikipedia is not censored. JonFlaune ( talk) 19:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
O.K. 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 01:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
AP has just put out a timeline [2] which made me think...a timeline of some kind would really help the article. I suppose it could be a graphic, or a table - or prose; I don't know.
Any ideas, or indeed anyone just adding something, welcome. Chzz ► 19:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I found this huge BBC timeline. [3] 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 20:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is the official timeline from the police of the events at Utøya - https://www.politi.no/Nyhet_10256.xhtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laniala ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Very bulky, but worth reading data list by User:188.103.193.14
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Name: Andrew Berwick/Anders Behring Breivik Nationality: Norwegian Born: February 1979 Height: 183 cm Weight: 80 kg Ethnicity: Nordic/Norwegian Address: Oslo ,Norway Personality: Optimistic, pragmatic, ambitious, creative, hard working Political view: Cultural conservative, revolutionary conservative, Vienna school of thought, economically liberal Religion: Christian, Protestant but I support a reformation of Protestantism leading to it being absorbed by Catholisism. The typical “Protestant Labour Church” has to be deconstructed as its creation was an attempt to abolish the Church Religious: I went from moderately to agnostic to moderately religious Education: Non-formal equivalent to 7 years + at university level Professions: Investor, Director, Manager - founder of several companies, Small business management (including organisational development), political analyst, author, stock analyst/trader. Im unsure whether resistance fighter (Justiciar Knight Commander) and martyr counts as a profession:) Nicotine: Yes Alcohol: Occasionally Drugs: No Tattoos: No Sports: Snowboarding, fitness (body building/spinning), running Watch sport: Only women’s sand volley ball:P Perhaps I would if Norway didn’t suck so hard in footbal Name of your primary weapon: Mjöllnir Name of your side arm: Gungnir Hobbies: Political analysis, studying new topics, Free Mason, Heraldry, Genealogy, gaming (MMO or Modern Warfare 2), travelling – learning about new cultures, music, friends. I have had the privilege of experiencing the following countries: Sweden, Denmark, UK, Germany, Poland, Belarus, France, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Croatia, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Spain, Cyprus, Malta, US, Turkey, Mexico, China, Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Liberia.
Key qualifications: Organisational/business development – Experience with the establishment, development and management of smaller businesses related to the fields; organisational/business development, small business management, marketing and sales Financial analysis – stock/currency analysis relating to the fields/indicators; candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2005-2007: Managing director of E-Commerce Group AS (part investment company – 50%, part sales/outsourcing company – 50%). I converted ABB ENK to a corporation (AS). Total of 7 employees: 3 in Norway, 1 in Russia, 1 in Indonesia, 1 in Romania, 1 in the US. Distribution of outsourcing services to foreign companies, sold software/programming solutions. Worked part time with day trading (stocks/options/currency/commodities). This was a front (milking cow) with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. The company was successful although most of the funds were channelled through a Caribbean subsidiary (with base in Antigua, a location where European countries do not have access): Brentwood Solutions Limited with bank accounts in other Caribbean nations and Eastern Europe. E-Commerce Group was terminated in 2007 while most of the funds were channelled in an “unorthodox manner” to Norway available to the coming intellectual and subsequent operations phase. 2002-2004: Director of Anders Behring Breivik ENK) (part time from May 02 (shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS) – des. 02, full time from March 03. Same emphasis as E-Commerce Group. This was a front (milking cow) I established and focused on shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS, Knights Templar with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. 2002-2003: Supervisor/internal advisor for Bankia Bank ASA (Apr. 02 – March 03) 2001-2002: Customer service representative for Bankia Bank ASA (Nov. 01 – Apr. 02) 2000-2001: Managing director of Media Group AS. Development and sales of outdoor media solutions (primarily billboards). My company was partially acquired/bought by Mediamax Norway AS after I (and my employee, Kristoffer Andresen) had built a billboard portfolio from scratch in the Oslo area which was then sold to Mediamax Norge AS (which was later bought by JC Decaux Norway) and Clear Channel (July 00 – July 01) 1999-2000: Team leader for the customer service rep. dept. for Enitel Telephony/mobile/internet/support division (March 99 – July 00) 1998-1999: Director for Behring & Kerner Marketing DA. Implenetation and sales of telephonic services (part time from Aug. 98-Feb. 99) 1997-1999: Corporate customer care rep. for customer care/internet support for Telia Norway AS (Nov 97-Feb 99) 1996-1997: Part time as a sales rep. for ACTA Economical Counselling (Feb 96-97) Education: Non-formal studies/degrees: Bachelor of Business Administration (major: small business management) part time studies using the curriculum/online study courses from AIU, American InterContinental University (98-02), Bachelor of Political Science (major: political science and history) part time studies (00-05), Master of Political Science, full/part time studies (05-10). See other chapter for specification. Other professional activities: 2005: Was coached by my friend, former mentor and independent stock analyst; Xun Dai over a 6 month period on the areas: technical stock analysis: candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2000-2001: Was coached by mo former mentor – and managing director of Hypertec AS; Richard Steenfeldt-Berg over a 12 month period on the areas; management, administration, corporate/business/organisation development (May 00-May 01) 1995-1998: Oslo Handelsgymnasium/Hartvig Nissen High School Board positions, professional activities, responsibilities 2003: Candidate for the Oslo City Council election on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party. This was during the “crossroad” when I was in the process of deciding whether I would fully abandon conventional politics (and a career within conventional politics) as a solution/source to acquire funds for the future operation or if I would rather leave conventional politics altogether and rather focus on entrepreneurship/business as the source for financing my future and clandestine participation in the pan-European Conservative Revolutionary Movement/pan-European Resistance Movement. As you already know I became one of the founding members of the PCCTS, Knights Templar in 2002 and among the very first Justiciar Knight Commanders. However, regardless of this choice, I was not completely convinced I was done with conventional politics. I actually decided to do a last push (after my pledge to the PCCTS) as I was already nominated on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party for the City Council election in 2003/2004. I came relatively close to being elected but was not among the final contestants due to the fact that the Progress Party Youth (lead by my rival Jøran Kallmyr) refused, for strategical reasons, to support my candidature. At the time I was more popular than Jøran but needed the support of the youth organisation (an organisation I had been a part of for a few years). I don’t blame him for backstabbing me like that though. After all, he had invested so much more of his time to the organisation than I had. He deserved it while I didn’t and I would probably have done the same thing if I was him. Also, during the “crossroad phase” I had lost all faith in the Progress Party as a solution to Norway’s rapid disintegration due to multiculturalism and Islamisation. A moderate cultural conservative political party like the Progress Party is un-capable of solving any of our primary problems as they are systematically ridiculed and isolated by all other political parties and a united media sector. This, even despite of the fact that they have taken measures and gotten rid of all true nationalists ending up with only opportunistic career cynisists unwilling to take any political risks. The Progress Party is now a part of the problem as they continuously give the Norwegian people false hope and thus contributes to pacify them. They should rather be honest and admit that all hopes for the democratical change of the society is futile and rather encourage all patriotic Norwegians to resist the multiculturalist regime through armed resistance. Their unwillingness to do this makes them a central part of the problem and in fact an obstacle to the liberation of and the reconquista of Norway. I anticipate that the Norwegian media will persecute and undermine the Progress Party for my earlier involvement in the organisation. This is not a negative thing as an increasing amount of Norwegians will then have their “illusions of democratic change” crushed (if the Progress Party is annihilated by the multiculturalist media) and rather resorts to armed resistance. From a tactical and pragmatical viewpoint; the PC Medias defeat of the Progress Party will benefit the armed National Resistance Movement in Norway. The more moderate alternatives are persecuted the more likely it is that the average nationalists illusions of peaceful reform will be crushed, which will lead to him seeking “other means”. Because at this point, armed resistance and the violent overthrow of our regime is the only thing that can save us. 2002: Founding member (national representative) of the PCCTS, Knights Templar, in London (April). 2002: Member of the board of directors of the control authority for Majorstuen Eldresenter (Majorstuen Retirement home), political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2002: Member of the board of directors for Uranienborg Elementary and Secondary School, political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2001: Development of the financial prospectus for Hypertec AS in cooperation with NB Partner AS and PriceWaterhouseCoopers DA (Jan 01-May 01) 2000-2003: Board member in Progress Party Frogner and Vice Chairman in the Progress Party Youth – Oslo West. |
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.193.14 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 23 July 2011
I read it and it is' informative, if verbose.! 86.24.23.148 ( talk) 10:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Since he has confessed, do we still need the suspected on there? Or do we have to wait until he is actually convicted? I'm not sure how Norwegian law works in this regards. Silver seren C 22:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
62. "Dynamittgubben" (in Norwegian). Aftenposten, A-magasinet. 20 February 2009. How can this source be about the shooter if it's dated 2009? I can't find it online either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StoriesTime ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Strange? 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 01:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm reading his manifesto now. He bitches a lot about homosexuality and how its abhorrent. -- Havermayer ( talk) 22:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
his picture in the dark LaCoste sweater has been used in at least one all-male chat room in the past (probably months ago), but that doesn't mean it was him using it. (personal knowledge) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.153.140.243 ( talk) 14:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He's definitely not pro-gay according to the manifesto. Maybe someone should put something about that in, since it's contradictory? Maybe he just wanted to make his ideas more palatable to more people and that's a social aspect he can compromise on, I dunno. Lolilith ( talk) 19:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Is norway in western europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.194.16 ( talk) 23:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
This book was written by "Andrew Berwick" but includes the line "Being a Norwegian myself..." on page 1369. As the video summary of this book includes pictures of Breivik, we can assume that this 1500-page book is his manifesto.
2083: A European Declaration of Independence
2.26.230.126 ( talk) 23:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)(i.e.)
While flicking through his Book/diary/manifesto, I noticed he purchased liquid nicotine. Searching the document further, I saw that he put lethal drugs into hollow point bullets, clearly intending to poison those who did not die on impact of rounds. The chemicals he used were Ricin, which apparently causes diarrhoea, and liquid Nicotine, which causes respiratory failure. This is particularly worrying, as it means that there could potentially be more deaths amongst those who were shot. Should the biochemical element of this be mentioned in the article? -- TheGreatDefective ( talk) 23:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
A user with a username indicating his agenda, deleted the second part of a direct quote from a source (thus falsifying the quote) [5]. Please revert. JonFlaune ( talk) 01:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know what he was armed with? New sources constantly say "automatic weapons" but I've also heard everything he had was legally owned. 69.70.241.62 ( talk) 03:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a few corrections relating to the weapons used in the attack. 1) There is no such thing as a Glock 16, so I removed the '16.' 2) The Ruger Mini 14 does not use '30 magazine clips,' so I changed it to 30-round magazines. 3) Changed 'silencer' to suppressor, which is the correct name for the device used to muffle the sound of shooting. Systmtc ( talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This guardian article may be useful, as it treats Breivik's discussions with far-right and anti-Islamic groups such as the English Defence League. Sindinero ( talk) 05:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Here's another one. Sindinero ( talk) 19:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
This needs to be mentioned. It's very noteworthy that that happend.
Abu Suleiman al-Nasser and Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami both took credit.
http://drudgeretort.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/norway-attacked-by-islamic-right-wing-extremist-group/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.215.116.115 ( talk) 06:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
There are multiple references to "right wing" in the article. However, this is an inherently vague term that is open to all manner of interpretation. Nazism and Libertarianism are both regularly described as "right wing" ideologies, and they have virtually nothing in common. Indeed, "right wing" seems to be a term used to describe anything a reporter doesn't agree with. I suggest that the use of the term "right wing" is inappropriate for this article. Deterence Talk 08:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, far-right Zionist and Islamophobe.( [7] and others) I think we can replace "right-wing" with more accurate descriptions. JonFlaune ( talk) 18:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The number of injured has been updated to 67 at Utøya, and 30 in Oslo. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080693 (QUOTE) - Det er 67 har vært eller er til behandling etter Utøya-angrepet og 30 har vært eller er til behandling etter bomben i Oslo. Av de som er skadet etter bombeeksplosjonen, er mellom ni og ti alvorlig skadet, sier Sponheim. (END QUOTE) Translation: 67 people have been or are being treated after the Utøya attack, and 30 have been or are being treated after the Oslo bomb. From the bomb injuries, 9 or 10 are seriously injured. Kiire ( talk) 09:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. He is a Christian terrorist with religio-political supremacist ideology 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Fine. You won't accept the actual manifesto which has 'christ' 500 times in the first 200 pages of his manifesto, or the Youtube video he sent out declaring a Christian war against Muslims explicitly calling for a Christian crusade against Muslims. Fine. Well, accept the NY-Times article then, mentioned above, in it, it reads: "...left behind a detailed manifesto outlining his preparations and calling for a Christian war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination." That is Christian terrorism. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 23:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
" The Bible tells us that we are now all good soldiers of Jesus Christ. Whether we want to face up to it or not, we are all living in a war zone as a result of the curse of Adam and Eve that is still in full operation on this earth. Anyone of us at anytime can come under human or demonic attack. The daily news will prove that to you without any shadow of a doubt. Each Christian must now make their own personal decision on all of this. You can either choose to learn how to rise up in the power of your Lord and Saviour and learn how to become a true warrior in the Lord, or you can continue to keepyour head in the sand and oppressor after oppressor keep beating you down. The choice is yours. " -Christian terrorist of Oslo, Norway (Manifesto, p. 1390).
" By propagating and defending Christendom we simply mean that we want to halt the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist attacks and systematic deconstruction on our Christian cultures and the Church itself and to reverse the de-Christianisation of Europe." (Manifesto, p.1352)
" Although the PCCTS, Knights Templar is a pan-European indigenous rights movement we give all Europeans, regardless of skin colour, the opportunity to become a Justiciar Knight as long as the individual is either a Christian, Christian agnostic or a Christian atheist. " (Manifesto, p. 820) 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 17:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
On his Facebook page, Breivik described himself as both conservative and Christian. In a 2009 online post, he wrote: "Today's Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like minimalist shopping centres. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic." http://www.courant.com/mobile/hc-campbell-terrorist-0726-20110726,0,6453552.column 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
2nd paragraph. "chock wave" should read "shock wave"
English is not my first language so excuse for the typos. But I find that some edits are saying that the Progress Party of Norway is a "right-wing" party, but on the progress party page I can't find sources that say this and also the evidence on this page doesn't say so either. Also, right-wing I think is a peacock term and so it shouldn't be used since Wikipedia says you cannot type this stuffs. Festermunk ( talk) 12:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Or is Anders realy a lefty who faked his rightness?16:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The Progress Party is an anti-immigration far-right party according to The Daily Telegraph [8]. But, as the Telegraph states:
JonFlaune ( talk) 17:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
It should be noted that the bombing and massacre occurred on 65th anniversary of King David Hotel bombing, which killed over 90 people. -- Magabund ( talk) 13:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The terrorist's worldview was characterized by "extreme screed of Islamophobia, far-right Zionism, and venomous attacks on Marxism and multiculturalism" according to The Jerusalem Post [9]. The killer "espoused new right-wing, pro-Israel philosophy" [10] according to JTA. Right-wing Zionism was a motivating factor. The anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing is highly relevant and should be mentioned. There is a clear ideological link between the two terrorist attacks. (I think we can effectively rule out the possibility that this was a coincidence.) JonFlaune ( talk) 17:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
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Contradicted by witnesses who say he was purposeful in target selection. -- 68.81.167.181 ( talk) 18:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
But surely we could chalk this up to berserkergang, couldn't we? — Rickyrab | Talk 21:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I just read two new articles, one ( http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080715) says that the shooter used hollow point ammunition to cause as much damage as possible, and another article ( http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080712) says that a police officer stationed at the island was killed by the shooter. I don't have the time to translate it and add it myself, so I'm hoping someone else can do it. Kiire ( talk) 18:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
(machine translation)
(AP) Anders Behring Breivik should have used special ammunition to do the most damage when he started the massacre Utøya. AP follows
The terrorist attacks 22 July
More and more gruesome detail draws an ever clearer picture of Breivik as a cold, calculating killer .
The last report from the drama on Utøya, makes the picture even clearer:
Chief Surgeon Colin Poole at Ringerike Hospital, where at least 16 of the victims have been treated for gunshot wounds. He claims that Breivik used dumb-dumb bullets during the massacre.
- This is not the balls you can buy over the counter in Norway, says Poole to VG Nett.
It was said yesterday that first wrote about Poole statements.
- These balls more or less exploded inside the body of the victims. All energy from the bullets were transferred to the tissue, says Poole said.
- The internal injuries they had sustained was absolutely terrible, he says.
Faced AP emphasizes that Poole
- The fragments are so tiny that I have never seen anything like it.
Dumdum bullets are specially designed to deform when it hits the target to create the most damage. Dumdum bullets have such a tremendous effect on people that it is completely forbidden among military forces.
Expanding ammunition, in Norwegian called blyspiss or hole tip ammunition is required by big-game hunting in Norway, because it increases the chance that the animal is killed, according to Wikipedia.
- Dumdum bullets are a bit old-fashioned collective term for all expanding ammunition. I am even big-game hunter,
At least 86 killed in massacre Utøya, among them a police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp . Most of them were victims of Breivik's bullets. Some may also have drowned when they swam for their lives to escape.
The surgeon, who must have worked at the hospital for 26 years, says that the major internal injuries caused major problems for the trauma teams at Ringerike Hospital.
- As one thousand pinpricks
- It has given us all sorts of additional problems with the type of damage they have caused, with a very special ball courts. The effect inside the body is like thousands of pins and needles, says Poole.
The picture that Anders Behring Breivik has posted posing him with what looks like a Ruger Mini-14 rifle.
He describes his own manifesto how he acquired the gun legally after having been on a failed drive to Prague to buy an automatic rifle. The picture shows that he has attached special equipment on the rifle.
- It looks as if he has attached flashlight, bayonet and laser sight on the race, said one weapons expert told VG Nett.
In addition, there is attached a so-called monopod on the gun that can be used as support.
- It also looks like he has a rødpunkt-view in addition to a magnifying device, says weapons expert.
Behring Breivik describes himself in the manifesto hvorden a gun smith did trigger mechanism smoother.
A Ruger Mini 14 is a licensed hunting rifle in Norway, but the civilian weapon that can mimic most of the military. It is semi-automatic, which means you can fire the shot after shot without taking the new charging handle. Behring Breivik writes that he ordered special magazines for 30 cartridges.
Link 2 says (machine translation, sorry: (AP) The police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp on Utøya, was killed by the perpetrator. AP follows
The terrorist attacks 22 July
The policeman had been a guard at the camp for several years and was also this year hired the so-called "private paid overtime." The official works normally in the Police Immigration Unit.
He was hired in private, was unarmed and had no protective equipment.
The program AUF had sent out in advance of the camp was that there would be police at Utøya. At a press conference Sunday night, police confirmed that there was an official on the island since the terrorist accused Anders Behring Breivik attacked.
- There has been a police officer in private paid overtime that would seem like garrisons on Utøya. We can confirm, said Deputy Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim in the Oslo police.
- Where was he?
- We do not know, what we get clarified through the investigation, said Sponheim.
VG know that the police officer is one of the victims after Utøya tragedy. The next of kin are notified. The police informed not about the policeman's condition at the press conference, but the VG has chosen to presiere that he is killed to avoid speculation. Totnesmartin ( talk) 19:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This
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7 have been killed. should be changed to 93 have been confirmed dead.
66.203.236.78 (
talk)
19:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Here are links to the some accounts of witnesses of the shooting: (in Norwegian)
I thought they might be relevant, but are uncertain of how to integrate their information into the article. -- Painocus ( talk) 19:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This URL is an interview (in Norwegian) with three survivors, at least one of which claim that there must have been more than one shooter. The authors of the article (Jarle Brenna , Gordon Andersen , Morten Hopperstad , Bjørnar Tommelstad , Rune Thomas Ege and Tor-Erling Thømt Ruud) also write that several survivors they have spoken to claim this. http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080627 From the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang, retrieved 2011-07-24.
Torbjorn Bjorkman ( talk) 19:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Torbjörn Björkman
Okay, there might have been more than one berserker on Utoya. Good to see someone taking note of that. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
As I've just pointed out at Talk:Anders Behring Breivik, we should not put Wikilinks onto words within quotations, as this violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style: "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader". There is no need whatsoever to link such terms 'Pro-gay, or 'Israel' in any case, under WP:OVERLINK - Our readers will know what such words mean. I am going to remove any such links, and ask that people do not reinsert them. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I've read several news accounts that stated that he used steroids. Since steroids cause paranoia, psychosis and overt aggressiveness, I think his use of anabolic steroids should be included as a causal contributing factor. 69.236.142.83 ( talk) 22:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I just used HotCat to remove Category:2011 in Norway, Category:Terrorism in Norway and Category:Terrorist incidents in 2011 because all three are children of, and thus redundant to, Category:Terrorist incidents in Norway in 2011.
I also removed Category:Zionist terrorism both because there is no citation in the article to support it; and it is unlikely that a Christian fundamentalist would be a Zionist, as we define it in out article on Zionism.
All those removals have been reverted. Why? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Are you serious? This guy's basically a nutcase so calling him a "Zionist" is about as correct as calling David Koresh "Jesus". The source given does not call him a Zionist either - that's a pure invention by some Wikipedia editor. And since this is breaking news I'd be very very careful about attributing such controversial labels to anyone until such a moniker is widely reported in reliable sources (which, obviously, it's not going to be, since the contention is plainly ridiculous).
Another reason why Wikipedia shouldn't try to cover news. WP:NOTNEWS. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
More to the point, why not just describe him as a Knight Templar? I'm sure there's sources for that. Seriously, this is just highlighting how pathetic Wikipedia can be sometimes. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Until the sitiation is better understood, why not just say he appears to be associated with "several different ideologies?" 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 22:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He's a Viking. He comes from that part of the world, right? — Rickyrab | Talk 22:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, a far-right Zionist and an Islamophobe. [11] Possibly there are other descriptions. There is no doubt he held what the Jerusalem Post calls "far-right Zionist" views, and this is both properly sourced and a crucial point (se this article in the Financial Times). JonFlaune ( talk) 22:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
"At the centre of the inquiry is the maniac’s claim that there was a 2002 London ‘summit’ of far-Right fundamentalists from across Europe, including two Britons." Source: Did Norwegian maniac plot his gun rampage in London? As death toll rises to 93, extremist reveals chilling UK link Should this be included to part about preparation of the attack, or is it more into the biography article? It definitely made a mark on him, but can this be directly connected to the preparation? Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I think the following information is worthy to be included in the narrative of the shootings: "Norway shooting: German tourist hailed a hero after saving 30 lives ... A German tourist has been hailed a hero after sailing straight into the line of gunfire to save up to 30 lives during Norway's brutal massacre.(...)" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658437/Norway-shooting-German-tourist-hailed-a-hero-after-saving-30-lives.html AugustinMa ( talk) 12:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Paragraph suggest that the attacker held a "parralel life" to mask his preparation to the attacks: playing video games, blogging, listening to Europop, watching True blood and eating with his mother".
This paragraph is confusing a "parallel life" with keeping the preparations "secret". A husband who secretly marries two women has a parrallel life, same for a policeman who accepts bribres from criminals. In this case, the attacker simply lived his own life up to the moment of committing the attacks. Listening to TV, music and eating with your mother cannot be said to be "parrallel" to anything.
I likewise see this entire section to be completely irrelevant. The description of a persons hobbies, which from reading the manifesto, were not used as a cover but rather as simply part of his day to day life, this is not relevant to the Norway Attacks.
I won't even go into detail about why I find the last paragraph to be excruciatingly poor. In no way, shape or form, is his personal opinion on the attractiveness of women in a city relevant to this article.
I'm not going to immediately edit the article myself, but someone should completely revise the entire "preparation" section, or preferably scrap it as a whole. It feels like filler material, not actual relevant material. 121.217.219.244 ( talk) 16:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
If you want to write your own article called "Christian fundamentalism", be my guest. The current article called Fundamentalist Christianity is about a historical religious movement specific to the USA. How can it be "broadened" to be less US-specific? -- Kenatipo speak! 03:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have time to list the diffs, but PassaMethod's repeated removal of the term Islamophobia and similar terms from 2011 Norway attacks, against apparent community consensus, appears to be way beyond 3RR. I've asked him to desist, and bring the matter to this talk page if he wishes to pursue it. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The same seems to apply to the same user's repeated addition of Stop the Islamisation of Norway. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
"Personal office building of the Norwegian Prime Minister with blown-out windows shortly after the explosion." It gives the impression that this whole house is the "Personal office building of the Norwegian Prime Minister", which is wrong. His office is just one of the hundreds of offices in this government building. Roger491127 ( talk) 13:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Unless I've missed it, we don't seem to have anything about ABB's court appearance this week. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
His attorney have declared the perpetrator insane (as a defence tactics). I'll take a look for relevant sources. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 17:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
An expert in the field said in Swedish television that the probability that Breivik would be considered insane is practically zero. In Sweden he would have a much better, but still very slight, chance of being considered insane, because, he explained, there are basically four different systems concerning declaring criminals insane, so they are put in an insane asylum for a time the doctors determine instead of in jail for a certain number of years. Sweden uses a fairly liberal system but Norway uses a very restricted system, where you have to be obviously and totally brain damaged to be considered insane.
And, by the way, the maximum sentence of 21 years in Norway can in certain cases, when the person is still considered a threat to society, like Breivik, be prolonged by for example 10 years, and then 10 years more, and then 10 years more, etc.. So, according to this expert, Breivik will probably never get out of jail. Roger491127 ( talk) 03:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I assume that you are right, you seem to know what you are talking about. To my defense I can say that I have heard from several sources that 21 years is the maximum sentence you can get in Norway and that is probably what ABB will get. Obviously these sources did not know that you can get a 30 years sentence (for crimes against humanity). I knew that prisoners in general, in both Sweden and Norway are eligible for parole after two thirds of the sentence, but I doubt very much that ABB will get out after only 20 years. Considering the severity of the crimes and the national trauma caused he cannot get less than 30 years. After that it will depend very much on how much his personality and views have changed. If the authorities in Norway, and the Norwegian people, are very sure that he has changed completely he has a chance to get out before he gets very old. People in jail usually preserve their health very well, because they eat good food regularly and train, so that he would be released based on health reason will hardly happen before he is very old. Roger491127 ( talk) 10:47, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
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Someone's going way overboard with the pruning sheers to this discussion page. Over 3/4 of the page disappeared into archives recently. Some of that we could afford to lose -- some sections were complete conjecture/opinion discussions with no sourcing whatsoever, many were resolved issues. But other sections had valuable discussion about the article content and format. I think we should revert a number of sections back to an active mode, and hereforth show some restraint and get some consensus before boxing so readily. I'd like to keep active the following:
Is publishing pictures of spree killers a good idea? - this is an ongoing debate and though one of the pictures has been nominated for deletion and we can discuss it there, others have not.
Terrorism? - While I think this section is one of the worst offenders for putting personal opinion above valid sourcing, it remains an open debate, and the page title still does not include the word terrorism, nor does the lead passage, which continues to perplex me in that nearly all of our sources refer to the attacks as such. In the interest of brevity and the fact that it's not really relvant, I won't go again in to all of the common sense reasons I think it is undeniably terrorism. Fact remains, I'll bet upwards of 90% of the pages we're referencing in this article contain at least one reference to the attack as terrorist in nature. Until that change is affected to the actual article, I think the discussion at least should stay.
Christian - the degree to which Anders was motivated by religious versus secular ideology is still left quite confused. Although we still have a dirth of secondary sources to resolve this issue at present, I think we should keep it in mind.
Description apparently In his own words - Although this is a primary source and cannot directly influence the article's content, it's a good reference point for us here on the discussion page in trying to sort out the man's ideology and motives. Granted, all of this will have to then be corroborated by secondary sources which might be some time in coming, but I think it's useful enough to leave up front.
Possible links to the EDL and other European far-right groups - This issue shows signs of a revert war in the works, even with protected status. The EDL link is a developing story regardless. We should have a place to discuss it.
Thoughts? Snow ( talk) 00:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The claims that “all roads into Oslo's downtown area were closed” and “public transport into and out of the city was also halted” are completely untrue. Only a few streets in the immediate vicinity of the bomb site, and a road tunnel that passes under it, were closed. Most public transportation ran without interruption. The public was asked to leave the city center, but there was no general evacuation. As of Monday evening, only about 350 m of Grubbegata (where the bomb exploded), 250 m of Akersgata (parallel to Grubbegata) and 250 m of Apotekergata (a cross street between the aforementioned) were still closed. DES ( talk) 02:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Just for future reference, I can confirm (generally) the information provided by DES and Sjakalle above. To satisfy WP:V, this is implicitly cited to e.g. the NRK live news reporting during Friday and Saturday. Verifying information from NRK's historic reporting is inconvenient but entirely possible (it will be in the national library for one, in addition to available from NRK's own archives at need; just have to want it bad enough). Some of it can probably also be sourced to online Norwegian-language newspapers, but I concur that for this particular information it is not really necessary unless someone specifically challenges it with a valid rationale. -- Xover ( talk) 17:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
"A local TV station managed to rent a private helicopter and reach the location before any of the police units"
It this true? From what I understand this was a helicopter from NRK (the Norwegian Broadcasting Company) and it was already in the air when the shooting started. The source for this claim is Czech so I am not able to understand it. I tried removing the sentence before, but the change was reverted saying that the source is valid. Unless someone can actually produce a source in a more common lanugage (and preferably more than one source), I will remove it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.161.122.66 ( talk) 12:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
For the record, NRK is a national TV network, not a local station, and it does not own a helicopter. DES ( talk) 19:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
According to media reports, the suspect "Anders Breivik is believed to have drowned out the screams of his victims by listening to film music from the Lord of the Rings on his iPod. Lux Aeterna, which was used in the battle scenes, is described by the killer as ‘very inspiring and invokes the type of passionate rage within you’." [13] It should be pointed out that Lux Æterna (song) by Clint Mansell was written for Requiem for a Dream and was never used in The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, only in one of the trailers for The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers in 2002, and this probably refers to the orchestral remix known as Requiem for a Tower. [14]-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Bang head against wall. Some more. More proof that Wikipedia has no business covering news, especially controversial news. What next? His favorite Pokemon character? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
None of this changes the fact that the song is NOT featured AT ANY TIME in the Lord Of the Rings Films. It is from "Requiem for a Dream." It should probably read, "Lux Aeterna" by composer Clint Mansell. Right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.70.11 ( talk) 12:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The Manifesto contains claims many of which are demonstrably false. I am not referring to his subjective views, butn his claims as to his personal life and possibly his moments. It seems to me any reference directly or by secondary sources on the Manifesto's assertions should be qualified with "claimed", ie that he claims to have traveled to London or meetings in 2002. Since he seems to have made a number of things up, eitehr as fantasy or disinformation, such claims shoudl be qualified here, even if a secondary source makes an unqualified statement not corroborated by the authorities (example tracking his known movements). 71.252.101.199 ( talk) 14:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
It seems overly cautious to claim that Breivik had been preparing for his actions from "at least as early as 2009". According to his manifest, he started preparing in 2002: [15] Lampman ( talk) 17:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
If some producers will decide to make a movie about these attacks it will be necessary to mention this fact in the article. LET'S TRY TO SEARCH. 195.122.250.196 ( talk) 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Many of these aren't crusaders at all. Are we going with the islamist -"against crusaders (that is: christians) and jews" as they put it- definition of a crusader here..? or should we rather try to use use wikipedia's own, more sensible, definition?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader
"Crusader may refer to:
Military
Crusader, a participant in one of the Crusades"
If ABB himselfs terms/thinks these people crusaders then that should be made clear. As it stands now, it's factually incorrect. 90.227.176.140 ( talk) 17:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I believe that while the descriptor "Christian" for Breivik is accurate, the description as a "Christian fundamentalist" is based on off-the-cuff assessments in very early reports and should be dropped. I have discussed my reasons in detail at: Talk:Anders_Behring_Breivik#Religious_section where further discussion of this should be directed. Peter G Werner ( talk) 00:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the final article on the 2011 Norway Attacks will probably not contain a lot of detail about this person, but perhaps relevant links to other mass murderers, and possible traits they share. 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 01:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Norwegian professor of police science Tore Bjørgo says the following to Verdens Gang: [16]
– What Anders Behring Breivik has expressed in his profile on the net has been non-violent. He believes in God, but is not particularly religious. It will therefore not be appropriate to categorize him as a Christian fundamentalist. (– Det Anders Behring Breivik har uttrykt i sin profil på nettet har vært ikke-voldelig. Han tror på Gud, men er ikke spesielt religiøs. Det vil derfor ikke være riktig å kategorisere ham som fundamentalistisk kristen.)
Lampman ( talk) 15:17, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
It might be good to realize that "Christian Fundamentalist" probably doesn't carry the same meaning in Europe as in the United States. -- Popoi ( talk) 18:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Since we can only reasonably have one image for Breivik, I suggest we replace the existing one with the candid taken at his arraignment. This image shows him in a context more relevant to the the attacks and thus to the article, and will free us from an image that represents how Breivik wants to see himself portrayed but which is not necesarily the most ideal image for our purposes. I mean, come on, the guy looks like a corny G.I. Joe character. And while I'm happy to laugh at his idea of what a great and noble protector of Christendom looks like, it nonetheless seems inappropriate here. What's more, if we go by default with current image, just because it was one of the first available, we're letting Breivik set the tone for our article, which is an inappropriate relationship between the subject of an article and the content, the subject should never influence the form the article takes, even in such a roundabout and unintentional manner. The arraignment image would also be more recent. Thoughts? Snow ( talk) 06:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
In the International Reaction section, the article states that the True Finns party is right-wing. However, they are officially centre-left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.243.250 ( talk) 05:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
The article says that the bullets he used were hollow-point, which increase tissue damage. This is all true, but the method of presentation biases the impact on the reader. To my knowledge, if he hadn't used hollow-point, he'd have to have used military-grade ammunition, which would have been difficult to obtain. Most civilian weapons use hollow-point to limit unintended damage to other people (they don't pierce targets). -- 69.61.218.88 ( talk) 05:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Are there any references of the attacks being labelled "seven twentytwo" in Norwegian?-- 85.165.231.254 ( talk) 09:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a section for the Perpetrator, but no section for the Victims. Do we have any information about the victims yet? Who they were? At least one victim (the off duty police officer) has been reported in the media. Burghardts ( talk) 12:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Not even WP:SINGLEEVENT, but WP:MEMORIAL also. If there are notable victims in that are verifiable in reliable sources we *might* include them - but if they were notable before the event the information is better included in their article in wikipedia (or one created if they didn't have one - if they were notable before the attacks), but we do not do this even in September 11 attacks. Even being the youngest victim is still WP:SINGLEEVENT, so I would be careful about inclusion. Notability is a general or specific criteria of an individual, and it is not inherited, so being notable within a single event doesn't necessarily mean notability in a wikipedia sense. I know it is frustrating that we often speak of the perpetrator and little about the victims, but consider that the perpetrator generally has the intent of scrutiny, whereas the victims were private people who do not necessarily want their lives - even if cut short - examined voyeristically because of the actions of someone else. Its about respecting privacy and exercising decorum, as much as it is about encyclopedic quality. -- Cerejota ( talk) 17:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Yesterday's Ilta-Sanomat reported that Breivik's first victims on Utoøya were the camp hostess and security officer. The hostess was already suspicious of Breivik when he first arrived on the island, so she went to talk to the security guard, at which point Breivik killed them both. Are there any other sources for this? JIP | Talk 05:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14294251 - I'm working so can't do anything with that right now. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I excised the section entitled "Victims" ( DIFF) for two reasons - firstly as per WP:SINGLEEVENT/ WP:MEMORIAL, and secondly because at present it contained only two names. I don't believe that a list of all 76 victims is appropriate, but as always, lets obtain a consensus first. Manning ( talk) 21:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Age | Total fatalities |
---|---|
10 | 4 |
18 | 2 |
40-50 | 2 |
I feel like a schmuck for doing this to an IP - one who had clearly put a fair amount of work into this. However unless we have a major policy shift, lists of victims do not belong in the article.
For posterity, and review, here is the table that the IP had created: Manning ( talk) 22:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
>XXX ==Victims==
>XXX ===Utøya===
Name | Birth | Age | From |
---|---|---|---|
Sharidyn Svebakk-bøhn | 1997-07-17 | 14 | Drammen |
Silje Merete Fjellbu | 1993-11-13 | 17 | Tinn |
Hanne A. Balch Fjalestad | 1967-10-13 | 43 | Lunner |
Bano Abobakar Rashid | 1992-12-28 | 18 | Nesodden |
Syvert Knudsen | 1993-08-21 | 17 | Lyngdal |
Diderik Aamodt Olsen | 1992-06-03 | 18 | Nesodden |
Simon Sæbø | 1992-07-25 | 18 | Salangen |
Synne Røyneland | 1993-01-18 | 18 | Oslo |
Anne Lise Holter | 1959-09-16 | 52 | Våler, Østfold |
Trond Berntsen | 1960-05-12 | 51 | Øvre Eiker |
Birgitte Smetbak | 1996-02-25 | 15 | Nøtterøy |
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven | 1995-03-03 | 16 | Bærum |
Even Flugstad Malmedal | 1992-12-06 | 18 | Gjøvik |
Gunnar Linaker | 1988-07-07 | 23 | Bardu |
>XXX ===regjeringskvartalet (the Government Quarter)===
Name | Birthday | Age | From |
---|---|---|---|
Tove Åshill Knutsen | 1954-07-31 | 56 | Oslo |
Hanna M. Orvik Endresen | 1950-03-21 | 51 | Oslo |
Kai Hauge | 1978-07-31 | 32 | Oslo |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Randy Melchert's right-wing Christian apologetics blog is not an acceptable source. Christian trolls keep trying to add it. It's pure propaganda, It's nonsense, and it's a BLOG. A BLOG folks. Stop it. Aaronwayneodonahue ( talk) 20:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The attacker was not a muslim but a self declared conservative christian: http://www.solidprinciples.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Anders-Behring-Breivik-FACEBOOK.pdf -- 82.113.99.150 ( talk) 05:45, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Wrong 82.113.99.150. What's the matter with you? Determined to extract political mileage from this unspeakable act are you? You are not only flat-out wrong, you are also wrong to make such a claim in the first place. No one and nothing "makes" someone else do these kinds of horrific things. His own mental illness made him "do it," which is why there shouldn't be anything called "temporary insanity" as a defense to killing another human being. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 ( talk) 00:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The listed Israeli reaction doesn't appear to a valid news source. A Google search turns up nothing for "Jerusalem One", and I don't think a Tweet counts as official national reaction. I'm removing the listing. Windward1 ( talk) 06:58, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The article also cites an Aftenposten article implying a relationship between islamphobia and support for Israel. I don't understand Norwegian, could someone check if the Aftenposten actually implied a relationship? If so, could someone explain what that relationship is, since in and of itself, the citation makes Aftenposten seem to have an anti-jewish prejudice? Is this actually the case? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.116.249.117 ( talk) 19:34, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
delete this part now! and how is the article that "showes" the sentence is from 2009? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IsraeliUpdater ( talk • contribs) 23:26, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
ARTICLE ABOUT ISRAEL'S REACTION TO THE NORWEGIAN ATTACKS: http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/peres-to-norway-s-king-massacre-broke-our-hearts-in-israel-1.374996 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.173.27 ( talk) 14:25, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
In the "Political and religious views" section about the terrorist's motivation, just 3 paragraphs long, Israel was mentioned six (!) times, and Judaism a few times more. This is absolutely ridiculous - this is a Norwegian terrorist in Norway, that has absolutely nothing to do with Israel, Israelis, or Jews. I can't belive his motivation had anything to do with Israel - it just doesn't make any sense! And I don't see any sources quoted to claim that it did have anything to do with Israel.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4099122,00.html 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 21:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Please edit this story carefully, media is often unreliable in the early stages of reporting an event.
One or more editors have added the claim that The shooting spree was the deadliest in modern Western history (assuming civilian victims), and the biggest act of violence in Norway since 1945..
I've removed this [1] ; although they've cited refs, I see this as original research / novel synthesis, because I have not seen reliable sources making the claim.
Discussion, of course, welcome. 07:03, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Why was the original version of this statement removed in the first place?. How exactly is it sensationalist? It's rather vital to discussing the subject by placing it in context. And more to the point it was removed for supposedly not being in the source yet it blatantly is!
"(CBS/AP)OSLO, Norway - A homegrown terrorist set off a deadly explosion in downtown Oslo before heading to a summer camp dressed as a police officer to commit one of the deadliest shooting sprees in history, killing at least 80 people as terrified youths ran and even swam for their lives, police said Friday." ChiZeroOne ( talk) 13:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
The Prime Minister himself has characterized the attacks in exactly that fashion: "The deadliest attacks [in the nation] since World War II" Surely you're not likely to find a more credible source to make that distinction. I'll try to relocate a link to the relevant press conference. 67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:14, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
There are a wide number of separate sources now saying this was the deadliest shooting spree in history. Some of the sources: Utøya: Historiens verste drapsmassakre ( Verdens Gang), Norway reels from world's worst-ever mass shooting as police quiz Anders Breivik over deaths of 91 people ( The Daily Telegraph (Australia)), Kan være det verste hatangrepet verden har sett ( E24 Næringsliv), Norway killings: the quiet and modest man who became peacetime Europe's worst mass killer ( The Daily Telegraph), Minst 85 drept på Utøya ( Bergens tidende). Maybe it's time too add this? Keeps getting removed when somebody adds it. And the numbers in the List of rampage killers speak for themselves. -- Miceagol ( talk) 12:19, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Why has this been called a terrorist attack? It's a nutter that's gone berserk. You wouldn't call Derrick Bird a terrorist would you? Needs to be changed in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.41.208 ( talk) 10:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
You don't need to be of arab descent or a muslim to be a terrorist. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡælˈeːrɛz/) [1] 13:17, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Are we seriously having a debate here about whether the bombing of three of a government's most senior ministry buildings, followed by a mass shooting spree at a youth camp that was sponsored by the dominant political party, all seemingly carried out by a man with a radical political, religious, and ethnic ideology qualifies as terrorism? Seriously? I think I would sooner classify E. coli as "maybe" bacteria than I would consider these acts "maybe" terrorism. 67.117.27.49 ( talk) 15:23, 23 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
Like user Hordaland wrote the person arrested is currently charged (so far) for terrorism in accordance to the Norwegian law paragraph §147a that covers this and can give up to 21 years prison. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4181167.ece http://www.lovdata.no/all/hl-19020522-010.html#map018 - Laniala ( talk) 19:55, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Breivik's lawyer Geir Lippestad told Norway's NRK television channel:
He wanted a change in society and, from his perspective, he needed to force through a revolution ... He wished to attack society and the structure of society. He explained that it was cruel but that he had to go through with these acts." http://news.sky.com/skynews
The motive was political so it was terrorism - even if carried out by one person acting alone. Stanley Oliver ( talk) 17:04, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
From what I have read, there is no reason to label this as a terrorist attack. The attacker has not released any statements regarding why he went on a killing spree, so any tie with his political views is only speculation at this time. Terrorism, to my mine, also implies the use of fear of a future attack as a tool to achieve a particular goal, but since there are no threats of future attacks from this person, there is now no "terror". Therefore the attacker is not a "terrorist" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.214.130 ( talk) 23:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I am suspecting that the motive was not terror, but to get attention, and he found controversial politics to be the easiest way to get himself into the limelight. He might just as easily been upset by a bad episode of his favorite show on Television, and gone off and killed nearly 100 actors and actresses. Or perhaps upset himself because there was a picture of a dog on Norway's postage stamps, and he likes cats. 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 00:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 05:44, 25 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
The revision of this article I looked at a few seconds ago does not contain the words "Christian" or "Christianity" even once, despite Anders Behring Breivik's self-identification as a Christian. Look up another terrorist attack of your choice (e.g. 9/11, Madrid bombings, London bombings) and see how many times the words "Islam", "Islamic", "Islamist" and "Muslim" appear. This is shameful, Wikipedia. 82.32.186.24 ( talk) 11:06, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Christianity played no part in this in the same way that a pope isn't responsible for his crusade, please. A self proclaimed knight Templar showing reverence to crusades of old and committing his atrocities with a cross displayed on his chest, be proud; the christian skin heads will be at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.99.179 ( talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He acted in an un-Christian way! 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 19:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
(Someone was so "stung" by my comment they removed it. What is it about the truth which some find so objectionable? Here, allow me to put it back.)
You liberals, who hijack Wikipedia over your own, personal bias so often it's lost all hope of ever meeting the spirit behind the NPOV bar set by its founders, can hardly WAIT to hang "Christian Conservative" around the neck of this psychopathic killer, can you? "Christians" are pro-life, and "Conservatives" are pro-individual, remember? Try, if you can, to recall it was Republican lawmakers who were responsible for the overwhelming majority of the anti-slavery bills introduced to the U.S. Congress before the Civil War, while Democratic lawmakers were responsible for the overwhelming majority of attempts to kill those bills, just like it is today when it comes to murdering unborn children. This nutcase is no more a "Christian Conservative" than Obama is either of them, though the truth hardly matters when you insist others live (or not) by your One World View, does it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.166.126.122 ( talk) 03:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility
67.117.27.49 ( talk) 04:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Snow
The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I realize that the shooter's self-proclaimed associations are true and verifiable, and I see how they are being handled in the article. I'd like to point out that Christianity is a well-defined term, defined by Christ and documented in the Bible. "Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples". I don't think it's too radical to say that Jesus and the Bible are the authoritative sources on who or what is and is not Christian. OhSqueezy ( talk) 01:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
The old version said that he was an admirer of Mill, but we know that he only quoted Mill on his twitter account. The quote is "One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100 000 who have only interests". I've changed it to reflect this. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080610-- Havermayer ( talk) 12:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
He also listed Mill's On Liberty in his favorite books on Facebook. Lolilith ( talk) 19:21, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Experts on the subject recommend not publishing pictures of spree killers to avoid encouraging copycat killings. I'm not entirely comfortable with Wikipedia breaking that guideline. As the picture is also nominated for deletion can we remove it soon? The mayor of Yurp ( talk) 17:54, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
He's on the front page of every newspaper, so I think it's too late anyway. Ketil ( talk) 21:35, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Yaa, let's leave Osama bin Laden's face up, but take this white conservatives face down. That way the only mass murderer faces we'll see will be brown. Great idea! I vote to do this! Adelson Velsky Landis ( talk) 22:41, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
In my point of view, it would be vastly exaggerated to remove all picture of mass murderes from encyclopaedias. Pictures can be an important part of a wikipedia article. In the case of Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein and others, knowing their pictures can even be considered as general education. Nevertheless, knowing about the threat of copycat crimes and in the will of writing an informative encyclopaedia, we should carefully think about what information bonus a picture gives. A self-glorifying picture with a weapon is anything, but not informative. It is intended to arouse feelings - and that's what it actually does. In this case there should be really good reasons that support the depicture - otherwise it would be better (and also, it would NOT be a loss!) to prefer other pictures over those who support a positive-biased view of the offender. Thank you very much for consideration! -- 131.188.24.42 ( talk) 10:38, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
As noted bellow, we now have an alternative image, a candid picture taken as Breivik was brought in for his arraignment: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080747
Also, it's become known (and I'm looking for a source to validate this now), that Breivik had the existing photos taken professionally as part of his attempt to 'market' his crimes and trial as a means of recruiting others to his cause. Given the reservations that some here had already expressed concerning the photos, which seem all the more valid now, and given the fact the facebook photos now very likely violate wikipedia's licensing guidelines with a free-equivalent photo available, I think perhaps these photos (or at least the gun-totting one) should be removed and replaced with this new candid and public domain shot, even though the smug douche's smile in this new photo makes me want to wretch. Snow Rise ( talk) 15:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I removed the sentence saying that he was an admirer of them. The reason being that he only listed them as interests on fb, which doesn't necessarily mean he admired them. We just don't know. I'm waiting for more sources on this. -- Havermayer ( talk) 18:49, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
This has been widely reported and is reliably sourced. We cannot rely on your interpretation of whether it's correct, only on what reliable sources report. JonFlaune ( talk) 19:29, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Why insult Winston and Max! Anders’ words on his Facebook page are not WP:RS. We need a stronger sorce. 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 19:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Nonsense. We are not using Facebook as a source at all. We are using reliable sources (currently El Mundo (Spain) and the Herald Sun, but hundreds of others pointing this out can be found). It doesn't matter if you find the material offensive, because Wikipedia is not censored. JonFlaune ( talk) 19:51, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
O.K. 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 01:08, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
AP has just put out a timeline [2] which made me think...a timeline of some kind would really help the article. I suppose it could be a graphic, or a table - or prose; I don't know.
Any ideas, or indeed anyone just adding something, welcome. Chzz ► 19:22, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
I found this huge BBC timeline. [3] 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 20:08, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Here is the official timeline from the police of the events at Utøya - https://www.politi.no/Nyhet_10256.xhtml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laniala ( talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Very bulky, but worth reading data list by User:188.103.193.14
|
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Name: Andrew Berwick/Anders Behring Breivik Nationality: Norwegian Born: February 1979 Height: 183 cm Weight: 80 kg Ethnicity: Nordic/Norwegian Address: Oslo ,Norway Personality: Optimistic, pragmatic, ambitious, creative, hard working Political view: Cultural conservative, revolutionary conservative, Vienna school of thought, economically liberal Religion: Christian, Protestant but I support a reformation of Protestantism leading to it being absorbed by Catholisism. The typical “Protestant Labour Church” has to be deconstructed as its creation was an attempt to abolish the Church Religious: I went from moderately to agnostic to moderately religious Education: Non-formal equivalent to 7 years + at university level Professions: Investor, Director, Manager - founder of several companies, Small business management (including organisational development), political analyst, author, stock analyst/trader. Im unsure whether resistance fighter (Justiciar Knight Commander) and martyr counts as a profession:) Nicotine: Yes Alcohol: Occasionally Drugs: No Tattoos: No Sports: Snowboarding, fitness (body building/spinning), running Watch sport: Only women’s sand volley ball:P Perhaps I would if Norway didn’t suck so hard in footbal Name of your primary weapon: Mjöllnir Name of your side arm: Gungnir Hobbies: Political analysis, studying new topics, Free Mason, Heraldry, Genealogy, gaming (MMO or Modern Warfare 2), travelling – learning about new cultures, music, friends. I have had the privilege of experiencing the following countries: Sweden, Denmark, UK, Germany, Poland, Belarus, France, Austria, Hungary, Austria, Croatia, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Spain, Cyprus, Malta, US, Turkey, Mexico, China, Nigeria, Cote d'Ivoire, Liberia.
Key qualifications: Organisational/business development – Experience with the establishment, development and management of smaller businesses related to the fields; organisational/business development, small business management, marketing and sales Financial analysis – stock/currency analysis relating to the fields/indicators; candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2005-2007: Managing director of E-Commerce Group AS (part investment company – 50%, part sales/outsourcing company – 50%). I converted ABB ENK to a corporation (AS). Total of 7 employees: 3 in Norway, 1 in Russia, 1 in Indonesia, 1 in Romania, 1 in the US. Distribution of outsourcing services to foreign companies, sold software/programming solutions. Worked part time with day trading (stocks/options/currency/commodities). This was a front (milking cow) with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. The company was successful although most of the funds were channelled through a Caribbean subsidiary (with base in Antigua, a location where European countries do not have access): Brentwood Solutions Limited with bank accounts in other Caribbean nations and Eastern Europe. E-Commerce Group was terminated in 2007 while most of the funds were channelled in an “unorthodox manner” to Norway available to the coming intellectual and subsequent operations phase. 2002-2004: Director of Anders Behring Breivik ENK) (part time from May 02 (shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS) – des. 02, full time from March 03. Same emphasis as E-Commerce Group. This was a front (milking cow) I established and focused on shortly after my inclusion in PCCTS, Knights Templar with the purpose of financing resistance/liberation related military operations. 2002-2003: Supervisor/internal advisor for Bankia Bank ASA (Apr. 02 – March 03) 2001-2002: Customer service representative for Bankia Bank ASA (Nov. 01 – Apr. 02) 2000-2001: Managing director of Media Group AS. Development and sales of outdoor media solutions (primarily billboards). My company was partially acquired/bought by Mediamax Norway AS after I (and my employee, Kristoffer Andresen) had built a billboard portfolio from scratch in the Oslo area which was then sold to Mediamax Norge AS (which was later bought by JC Decaux Norway) and Clear Channel (July 00 – July 01) 1999-2000: Team leader for the customer service rep. dept. for Enitel Telephony/mobile/internet/support division (March 99 – July 00) 1998-1999: Director for Behring & Kerner Marketing DA. Implenetation and sales of telephonic services (part time from Aug. 98-Feb. 99) 1997-1999: Corporate customer care rep. for customer care/internet support for Telia Norway AS (Nov 97-Feb 99) 1996-1997: Part time as a sales rep. for ACTA Economical Counselling (Feb 96-97) Education: Non-formal studies/degrees: Bachelor of Business Administration (major: small business management) part time studies using the curriculum/online study courses from AIU, American InterContinental University (98-02), Bachelor of Political Science (major: political science and history) part time studies (00-05), Master of Political Science, full/part time studies (05-10). See other chapter for specification. Other professional activities: 2005: Was coached by my friend, former mentor and independent stock analyst; Xun Dai over a 6 month period on the areas: technical stock analysis: candlesticks, RSI, stochastic, MACD, Bollinger bands, DMI, momentum 2000-2001: Was coached by mo former mentor – and managing director of Hypertec AS; Richard Steenfeldt-Berg over a 12 month period on the areas; management, administration, corporate/business/organisation development (May 00-May 01) 1995-1998: Oslo Handelsgymnasium/Hartvig Nissen High School Board positions, professional activities, responsibilities 2003: Candidate for the Oslo City Council election on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party. This was during the “crossroad” when I was in the process of deciding whether I would fully abandon conventional politics (and a career within conventional politics) as a solution/source to acquire funds for the future operation or if I would rather leave conventional politics altogether and rather focus on entrepreneurship/business as the source for financing my future and clandestine participation in the pan-European Conservative Revolutionary Movement/pan-European Resistance Movement. As you already know I became one of the founding members of the PCCTS, Knights Templar in 2002 and among the very first Justiciar Knight Commanders. However, regardless of this choice, I was not completely convinced I was done with conventional politics. I actually decided to do a last push (after my pledge to the PCCTS) as I was already nominated on behalf of the Oslo Progress Party for the City Council election in 2003/2004. I came relatively close to being elected but was not among the final contestants due to the fact that the Progress Party Youth (lead by my rival Jøran Kallmyr) refused, for strategical reasons, to support my candidature. At the time I was more popular than Jøran but needed the support of the youth organisation (an organisation I had been a part of for a few years). I don’t blame him for backstabbing me like that though. After all, he had invested so much more of his time to the organisation than I had. He deserved it while I didn’t and I would probably have done the same thing if I was him. Also, during the “crossroad phase” I had lost all faith in the Progress Party as a solution to Norway’s rapid disintegration due to multiculturalism and Islamisation. A moderate cultural conservative political party like the Progress Party is un-capable of solving any of our primary problems as they are systematically ridiculed and isolated by all other political parties and a united media sector. This, even despite of the fact that they have taken measures and gotten rid of all true nationalists ending up with only opportunistic career cynisists unwilling to take any political risks. The Progress Party is now a part of the problem as they continuously give the Norwegian people false hope and thus contributes to pacify them. They should rather be honest and admit that all hopes for the democratical change of the society is futile and rather encourage all patriotic Norwegians to resist the multiculturalist regime through armed resistance. Their unwillingness to do this makes them a central part of the problem and in fact an obstacle to the liberation of and the reconquista of Norway. I anticipate that the Norwegian media will persecute and undermine the Progress Party for my earlier involvement in the organisation. This is not a negative thing as an increasing amount of Norwegians will then have their “illusions of democratic change” crushed (if the Progress Party is annihilated by the multiculturalist media) and rather resorts to armed resistance. From a tactical and pragmatical viewpoint; the PC Medias defeat of the Progress Party will benefit the armed National Resistance Movement in Norway. The more moderate alternatives are persecuted the more likely it is that the average nationalists illusions of peaceful reform will be crushed, which will lead to him seeking “other means”. Because at this point, armed resistance and the violent overthrow of our regime is the only thing that can save us. 2002: Founding member (national representative) of the PCCTS, Knights Templar, in London (April). 2002: Member of the board of directors of the control authority for Majorstuen Eldresenter (Majorstuen Retirement home), political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2002: Member of the board of directors for Uranienborg Elementary and Secondary School, political position for the Norwegian Progress Party. 2001: Development of the financial prospectus for Hypertec AS in cooperation with NB Partner AS and PriceWaterhouseCoopers DA (Jan 01-May 01) 2000-2003: Board member in Progress Party Frogner and Vice Chairman in the Progress Party Youth – Oslo West. |
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.103.193.14 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 23 July 2011
I read it and it is' informative, if verbose.! 86.24.23.148 ( talk) 10:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Since he has confessed, do we still need the suspected on there? Or do we have to wait until he is actually convicted? I'm not sure how Norwegian law works in this regards. Silver seren C 22:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
62. "Dynamittgubben" (in Norwegian). Aftenposten, A-magasinet. 20 February 2009. How can this source be about the shooter if it's dated 2009? I can't find it online either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StoriesTime ( talk • contribs) 22:37, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Strange? 82.27.19.246 ( talk) 01:11, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm reading his manifesto now. He bitches a lot about homosexuality and how its abhorrent. -- Havermayer ( talk) 22:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
his picture in the dark LaCoste sweater has been used in at least one all-male chat room in the past (probably months ago), but that doesn't mean it was him using it. (personal knowledge) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.153.140.243 ( talk) 14:09, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He's definitely not pro-gay according to the manifesto. Maybe someone should put something about that in, since it's contradictory? Maybe he just wanted to make his ideas more palatable to more people and that's a social aspect he can compromise on, I dunno. Lolilith ( talk) 19:07, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Is norway in western europe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.66.194.16 ( talk) 23:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
This book was written by "Andrew Berwick" but includes the line "Being a Norwegian myself..." on page 1369. As the video summary of this book includes pictures of Breivik, we can assume that this 1500-page book is his manifesto.
2083: A European Declaration of Independence
2.26.230.126 ( talk) 23:21, 23 July 2011 (UTC)(i.e.)
While flicking through his Book/diary/manifesto, I noticed he purchased liquid nicotine. Searching the document further, I saw that he put lethal drugs into hollow point bullets, clearly intending to poison those who did not die on impact of rounds. The chemicals he used were Ricin, which apparently causes diarrhoea, and liquid Nicotine, which causes respiratory failure. This is particularly worrying, as it means that there could potentially be more deaths amongst those who were shot. Should the biochemical element of this be mentioned in the article? -- TheGreatDefective ( talk) 23:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
A user with a username indicating his agenda, deleted the second part of a direct quote from a source (thus falsifying the quote) [5]. Please revert. JonFlaune ( talk) 01:22, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know what he was armed with? New sources constantly say "automatic weapons" but I've also heard everything he had was legally owned. 69.70.241.62 ( talk) 03:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I made a few corrections relating to the weapons used in the attack. 1) There is no such thing as a Glock 16, so I removed the '16.' 2) The Ruger Mini 14 does not use '30 magazine clips,' so I changed it to 30-round magazines. 3) Changed 'silencer' to suppressor, which is the correct name for the device used to muffle the sound of shooting. Systmtc ( talk) 19:56, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This guardian article may be useful, as it treats Breivik's discussions with far-right and anti-Islamic groups such as the English Defence League. Sindinero ( talk) 05:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Here's another one. Sindinero ( talk) 19:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
This needs to be mentioned. It's very noteworthy that that happend.
Abu Suleiman al-Nasser and Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami both took credit.
http://drudgeretort.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/norway-attacked-by-islamic-right-wing-extremist-group/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.215.116.115 ( talk) 06:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
There are multiple references to "right wing" in the article. However, this is an inherently vague term that is open to all manner of interpretation. Nazism and Libertarianism are both regularly described as "right wing" ideologies, and they have virtually nothing in common. Indeed, "right wing" seems to be a term used to describe anything a reporter doesn't agree with. I suggest that the use of the term "right wing" is inappropriate for this article. Deterence Talk 08:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, far-right Zionist and Islamophobe.( [7] and others) I think we can replace "right-wing" with more accurate descriptions. JonFlaune ( talk) 18:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The number of injured has been updated to 67 at Utøya, and 30 in Oslo. Source: http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080693 (QUOTE) - Det er 67 har vært eller er til behandling etter Utøya-angrepet og 30 har vært eller er til behandling etter bomben i Oslo. Av de som er skadet etter bombeeksplosjonen, er mellom ni og ti alvorlig skadet, sier Sponheim. (END QUOTE) Translation: 67 people have been or are being treated after the Utøya attack, and 30 have been or are being treated after the Oslo bomb. From the bomb injuries, 9 or 10 are seriously injured. Kiire ( talk) 09:26, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The video that he published is clear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAwp2FnRmsE&skipcontrinter=1 He is a Christian terrorist. He's not a guy who happens to be Christian. His Christianity, as he understood it, played a significant role in his desire to kill the "cultural marxists" who were, as he saw it, working to weaken Christendom and the "cultural purity" of Norway. His whole shtick is to get rid of the Muslims because he saw them as a threat to Norway's cultural and religious (Christian) purity. He was a member of the "Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon." His video told Christians to be like the crusaders and battle the Muslims, join a local Templar group, and rely on the virtues of the crusaders and other people who had battled Muslims in the name of Christianity. In the video he also hated on feminism, multiculturalism, Marxism, Obama, and all the usual stuff you usually find amongst right-winger Christians in the United States. He is a Christian terrorist with religio-political supremacist ideology 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Fine. You won't accept the actual manifesto which has 'christ' 500 times in the first 200 pages of his manifesto, or the Youtube video he sent out declaring a Christian war against Muslims explicitly calling for a Christian crusade against Muslims. Fine. Well, accept the NY-Times article then, mentioned above, in it, it reads: "...left behind a detailed manifesto outlining his preparations and calling for a Christian war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination." That is Christian terrorism. 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 23:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
" The Bible tells us that we are now all good soldiers of Jesus Christ. Whether we want to face up to it or not, we are all living in a war zone as a result of the curse of Adam and Eve that is still in full operation on this earth. Anyone of us at anytime can come under human or demonic attack. The daily news will prove that to you without any shadow of a doubt. Each Christian must now make their own personal decision on all of this. You can either choose to learn how to rise up in the power of your Lord and Saviour and learn how to become a true warrior in the Lord, or you can continue to keepyour head in the sand and oppressor after oppressor keep beating you down. The choice is yours. " -Christian terrorist of Oslo, Norway (Manifesto, p. 1390).
" By propagating and defending Christendom we simply mean that we want to halt the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist attacks and systematic deconstruction on our Christian cultures and the Church itself and to reverse the de-Christianisation of Europe." (Manifesto, p.1352)
" Although the PCCTS, Knights Templar is a pan-European indigenous rights movement we give all Europeans, regardless of skin colour, the opportunity to become a Justiciar Knight as long as the individual is either a Christian, Christian agnostic or a Christian atheist. " (Manifesto, p. 820) 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 17:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
On his Facebook page, Breivik described himself as both conservative and Christian. In a 2009 online post, he wrote: "Today's Protestant church is a joke. Priests in jeans who march for Palestine and churches that look like minimalist shopping centres. I am a supporter of an indirect collective conversion of the Protestant church back to the Catholic." http://www.courant.com/mobile/hc-campbell-terrorist-0726-20110726,0,6453552.column 66.188.228.180 ( talk) 07:55, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
2nd paragraph. "chock wave" should read "shock wave"
English is not my first language so excuse for the typos. But I find that some edits are saying that the Progress Party of Norway is a "right-wing" party, but on the progress party page I can't find sources that say this and also the evidence on this page doesn't say so either. Also, right-wing I think is a peacock term and so it shouldn't be used since Wikipedia says you cannot type this stuffs. Festermunk ( talk) 12:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Or is Anders realy a lefty who faked his rightness?16:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The Progress Party is an anti-immigration far-right party according to The Daily Telegraph [8]. But, as the Telegraph states:
JonFlaune ( talk) 17:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
It should be noted that the bombing and massacre occurred on 65th anniversary of King David Hotel bombing, which killed over 90 people. -- Magabund ( talk) 13:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
The terrorist's worldview was characterized by "extreme screed of Islamophobia, far-right Zionism, and venomous attacks on Marxism and multiculturalism" according to The Jerusalem Post [9]. The killer "espoused new right-wing, pro-Israel philosophy" [10] according to JTA. Right-wing Zionism was a motivating factor. The anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing is highly relevant and should be mentioned. There is a clear ideological link between the two terrorist attacks. (I think we can effectively rule out the possibility that this was a coincidence.) JonFlaune ( talk) 17:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
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Contradicted by witnesses who say he was purposeful in target selection. -- 68.81.167.181 ( talk) 18:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
But surely we could chalk this up to berserkergang, couldn't we? — Rickyrab | Talk 21:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I just read two new articles, one ( http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080715) says that the shooter used hollow point ammunition to cause as much damage as possible, and another article ( http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080712) says that a police officer stationed at the island was killed by the shooter. I don't have the time to translate it and add it myself, so I'm hoping someone else can do it. Kiire ( talk) 18:59, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
(machine translation)
(AP) Anders Behring Breivik should have used special ammunition to do the most damage when he started the massacre Utøya. AP follows
The terrorist attacks 22 July
More and more gruesome detail draws an ever clearer picture of Breivik as a cold, calculating killer .
The last report from the drama on Utøya, makes the picture even clearer:
Chief Surgeon Colin Poole at Ringerike Hospital, where at least 16 of the victims have been treated for gunshot wounds. He claims that Breivik used dumb-dumb bullets during the massacre.
- This is not the balls you can buy over the counter in Norway, says Poole to VG Nett.
It was said yesterday that first wrote about Poole statements.
- These balls more or less exploded inside the body of the victims. All energy from the bullets were transferred to the tissue, says Poole said.
- The internal injuries they had sustained was absolutely terrible, he says.
Faced AP emphasizes that Poole
- The fragments are so tiny that I have never seen anything like it.
Dumdum bullets are specially designed to deform when it hits the target to create the most damage. Dumdum bullets have such a tremendous effect on people that it is completely forbidden among military forces.
Expanding ammunition, in Norwegian called blyspiss or hole tip ammunition is required by big-game hunting in Norway, because it increases the chance that the animal is killed, according to Wikipedia.
- Dumdum bullets are a bit old-fashioned collective term for all expanding ammunition. I am even big-game hunter,
At least 86 killed in massacre Utøya, among them a police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp . Most of them were victims of Breivik's bullets. Some may also have drowned when they swam for their lives to escape.
The surgeon, who must have worked at the hospital for 26 years, says that the major internal injuries caused major problems for the trauma teams at Ringerike Hospital.
- As one thousand pinpricks
- It has given us all sorts of additional problems with the type of damage they have caused, with a very special ball courts. The effect inside the body is like thousands of pins and needles, says Poole.
The picture that Anders Behring Breivik has posted posing him with what looks like a Ruger Mini-14 rifle.
He describes his own manifesto how he acquired the gun legally after having been on a failed drive to Prague to buy an automatic rifle. The picture shows that he has attached special equipment on the rifle.
- It looks as if he has attached flashlight, bayonet and laser sight on the race, said one weapons expert told VG Nett.
In addition, there is attached a so-called monopod on the gun that can be used as support.
- It also looks like he has a rødpunkt-view in addition to a magnifying device, says weapons expert.
Behring Breivik describes himself in the manifesto hvorden a gun smith did trigger mechanism smoother.
A Ruger Mini 14 is a licensed hunting rifle in Norway, but the civilian weapon that can mimic most of the military. It is semi-automatic, which means you can fire the shot after shot without taking the new charging handle. Behring Breivik writes that he ordered special magazines for 30 cartridges.
Link 2 says (machine translation, sorry: (AP) The police officer who was hired as a guard at the AUF-camp on Utøya, was killed by the perpetrator. AP follows
The terrorist attacks 22 July
The policeman had been a guard at the camp for several years and was also this year hired the so-called "private paid overtime." The official works normally in the Police Immigration Unit.
He was hired in private, was unarmed and had no protective equipment.
The program AUF had sent out in advance of the camp was that there would be police at Utøya. At a press conference Sunday night, police confirmed that there was an official on the island since the terrorist accused Anders Behring Breivik attacked.
- There has been a police officer in private paid overtime that would seem like garrisons on Utøya. We can confirm, said Deputy Police Chief Sveinung Sponheim in the Oslo police.
- Where was he?
- We do not know, what we get clarified through the investigation, said Sponheim.
VG know that the police officer is one of the victims after Utøya tragedy. The next of kin are notified. The police informed not about the policeman's condition at the press conference, but the VG has chosen to presiere that he is killed to avoid speculation. Totnesmartin ( talk) 19:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This
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7 have been killed. should be changed to 93 have been confirmed dead.
66.203.236.78 (
talk)
19:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Here are links to the some accounts of witnesses of the shooting: (in Norwegian)
I thought they might be relevant, but are uncertain of how to integrate their information into the article. -- Painocus ( talk) 19:28, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
This URL is an interview (in Norwegian) with three survivors, at least one of which claim that there must have been more than one shooter. The authors of the article (Jarle Brenna , Gordon Andersen , Morten Hopperstad , Bjørnar Tommelstad , Rune Thomas Ege and Tor-Erling Thømt Ruud) also write that several survivors they have spoken to claim this. http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/oslobomben/artikkel.php?artid=10080627 From the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang, retrieved 2011-07-24.
Torbjorn Bjorkman ( talk) 19:51, 24 July 2011 (UTC) Torbjörn Björkman
Okay, there might have been more than one berserker on Utoya. Good to see someone taking note of that. — Rickyrab | Talk 21:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
As I've just pointed out at Talk:Anders Behring Breivik, we should not put Wikilinks onto words within quotations, as this violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style: "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader". There is no need whatsoever to link such terms 'Pro-gay, or 'Israel' in any case, under WP:OVERLINK - Our readers will know what such words mean. I am going to remove any such links, and ask that people do not reinsert them. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 21:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I've read several news accounts that stated that he used steroids. Since steroids cause paranoia, psychosis and overt aggressiveness, I think his use of anabolic steroids should be included as a causal contributing factor. 69.236.142.83 ( talk) 22:01, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I just used HotCat to remove Category:2011 in Norway, Category:Terrorism in Norway and Category:Terrorist incidents in 2011 because all three are children of, and thus redundant to, Category:Terrorist incidents in Norway in 2011.
I also removed Category:Zionist terrorism both because there is no citation in the article to support it; and it is unlikely that a Christian fundamentalist would be a Zionist, as we define it in out article on Zionism.
All those removals have been reverted. Why? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Are you serious? This guy's basically a nutcase so calling him a "Zionist" is about as correct as calling David Koresh "Jesus". The source given does not call him a Zionist either - that's a pure invention by some Wikipedia editor. And since this is breaking news I'd be very very careful about attributing such controversial labels to anyone until such a moniker is widely reported in reliable sources (which, obviously, it's not going to be, since the contention is plainly ridiculous).
Another reason why Wikipedia shouldn't try to cover news. WP:NOTNEWS. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:24, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
More to the point, why not just describe him as a Knight Templar? I'm sure there's sources for that. Seriously, this is just highlighting how pathetic Wikipedia can be sometimes. Volunteer Marek ( talk) 22:29, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Until the sitiation is better understood, why not just say he appears to be associated with "several different ideologies?" 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 22:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
He's a Viking. He comes from that part of the world, right? — Rickyrab | Talk 22:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Reliable sources describe him as a Christian fundamentalist, a far-right Zionist and an Islamophobe. [11] Possibly there are other descriptions. There is no doubt he held what the Jerusalem Post calls "far-right Zionist" views, and this is both properly sourced and a crucial point (se this article in the Financial Times). JonFlaune ( talk) 22:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
"At the centre of the inquiry is the maniac’s claim that there was a 2002 London ‘summit’ of far-Right fundamentalists from across Europe, including two Britons." Source: Did Norwegian maniac plot his gun rampage in London? As death toll rises to 93, extremist reveals chilling UK link Should this be included to part about preparation of the attack, or is it more into the biography article? It definitely made a mark on him, but can this be directly connected to the preparation? Cimmerian praetor ( talk) 00:03, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I think the following information is worthy to be included in the narrative of the shootings: "Norway shooting: German tourist hailed a hero after saving 30 lives ... A German tourist has been hailed a hero after sailing straight into the line of gunfire to save up to 30 lives during Norway's brutal massacre.(...)" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8658437/Norway-shooting-German-tourist-hailed-a-hero-after-saving-30-lives.html AugustinMa ( talk) 12:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Paragraph suggest that the attacker held a "parralel life" to mask his preparation to the attacks: playing video games, blogging, listening to Europop, watching True blood and eating with his mother".
This paragraph is confusing a "parallel life" with keeping the preparations "secret". A husband who secretly marries two women has a parrallel life, same for a policeman who accepts bribres from criminals. In this case, the attacker simply lived his own life up to the moment of committing the attacks. Listening to TV, music and eating with your mother cannot be said to be "parrallel" to anything.
I likewise see this entire section to be completely irrelevant. The description of a persons hobbies, which from reading the manifesto, were not used as a cover but rather as simply part of his day to day life, this is not relevant to the Norway Attacks.
I won't even go into detail about why I find the last paragraph to be excruciatingly poor. In no way, shape or form, is his personal opinion on the attractiveness of women in a city relevant to this article.
I'm not going to immediately edit the article myself, but someone should completely revise the entire "preparation" section, or preferably scrap it as a whole. It feels like filler material, not actual relevant material. 121.217.219.244 ( talk) 16:27, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
If you want to write your own article called "Christian fundamentalism", be my guest. The current article called Fundamentalist Christianity is about a historical religious movement specific to the USA. How can it be "broadened" to be less US-specific? -- Kenatipo speak! 03:11, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't have time to list the diffs, but PassaMethod's repeated removal of the term Islamophobia and similar terms from 2011 Norway attacks, against apparent community consensus, appears to be way beyond 3RR. I've asked him to desist, and bring the matter to this talk page if he wishes to pursue it. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
The same seems to apply to the same user's repeated addition of Stop the Islamisation of Norway. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
"Personal office building of the Norwegian Prime Minister with blown-out windows shortly after the explosion." It gives the impression that this whole house is the "Personal office building of the Norwegian Prime Minister", which is wrong. His office is just one of the hundreds of offices in this government building. Roger491127 ( talk) 13:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Unless I've missed it, we don't seem to have anything about ABB's court appearance this week. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 14:52, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
His attorney have declared the perpetrator insane (as a defence tactics). I'll take a look for relevant sources. Rursus dixit. ( mbork3!) 17:12, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
An expert in the field said in Swedish television that the probability that Breivik would be considered insane is practically zero. In Sweden he would have a much better, but still very slight, chance of being considered insane, because, he explained, there are basically four different systems concerning declaring criminals insane, so they are put in an insane asylum for a time the doctors determine instead of in jail for a certain number of years. Sweden uses a fairly liberal system but Norway uses a very restricted system, where you have to be obviously and totally brain damaged to be considered insane.
And, by the way, the maximum sentence of 21 years in Norway can in certain cases, when the person is still considered a threat to society, like Breivik, be prolonged by for example 10 years, and then 10 years more, and then 10 years more, etc.. So, according to this expert, Breivik will probably never get out of jail. Roger491127 ( talk) 03:48, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
I assume that you are right, you seem to know what you are talking about. To my defense I can say that I have heard from several sources that 21 years is the maximum sentence you can get in Norway and that is probably what ABB will get. Obviously these sources did not know that you can get a 30 years sentence (for crimes against humanity). I knew that prisoners in general, in both Sweden and Norway are eligible for parole after two thirds of the sentence, but I doubt very much that ABB will get out after only 20 years. Considering the severity of the crimes and the national trauma caused he cannot get less than 30 years. After that it will depend very much on how much his personality and views have changed. If the authorities in Norway, and the Norwegian people, are very sure that he has changed completely he has a chance to get out before he gets very old. People in jail usually preserve their health very well, because they eat good food regularly and train, so that he would be released based on health reason will hardly happen before he is very old. Roger491127 ( talk) 10:47, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
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Someone's going way overboard with the pruning sheers to this discussion page. Over 3/4 of the page disappeared into archives recently. Some of that we could afford to lose -- some sections were complete conjecture/opinion discussions with no sourcing whatsoever, many were resolved issues. But other sections had valuable discussion about the article content and format. I think we should revert a number of sections back to an active mode, and hereforth show some restraint and get some consensus before boxing so readily. I'd like to keep active the following:
Is publishing pictures of spree killers a good idea? - this is an ongoing debate and though one of the pictures has been nominated for deletion and we can discuss it there, others have not.
Terrorism? - While I think this section is one of the worst offenders for putting personal opinion above valid sourcing, it remains an open debate, and the page title still does not include the word terrorism, nor does the lead passage, which continues to perplex me in that nearly all of our sources refer to the attacks as such. In the interest of brevity and the fact that it's not really relvant, I won't go again in to all of the common sense reasons I think it is undeniably terrorism. Fact remains, I'll bet upwards of 90% of the pages we're referencing in this article contain at least one reference to the attack as terrorist in nature. Until that change is affected to the actual article, I think the discussion at least should stay.
Christian - the degree to which Anders was motivated by religious versus secular ideology is still left quite confused. Although we still have a dirth of secondary sources to resolve this issue at present, I think we should keep it in mind.
Description apparently In his own words - Although this is a primary source and cannot directly influence the article's content, it's a good reference point for us here on the discussion page in trying to sort out the man's ideology and motives. Granted, all of this will have to then be corroborated by secondary sources which might be some time in coming, but I think it's useful enough to leave up front.
Possible links to the EDL and other European far-right groups - This issue shows signs of a revert war in the works, even with protected status. The EDL link is a developing story regardless. We should have a place to discuss it.
Thoughts? Snow ( talk) 00:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The claims that “all roads into Oslo's downtown area were closed” and “public transport into and out of the city was also halted” are completely untrue. Only a few streets in the immediate vicinity of the bomb site, and a road tunnel that passes under it, were closed. Most public transportation ran without interruption. The public was asked to leave the city center, but there was no general evacuation. As of Monday evening, only about 350 m of Grubbegata (where the bomb exploded), 250 m of Akersgata (parallel to Grubbegata) and 250 m of Apotekergata (a cross street between the aforementioned) were still closed. DES ( talk) 02:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Just for future reference, I can confirm (generally) the information provided by DES and Sjakalle above. To satisfy WP:V, this is implicitly cited to e.g. the NRK live news reporting during Friday and Saturday. Verifying information from NRK's historic reporting is inconvenient but entirely possible (it will be in the national library for one, in addition to available from NRK's own archives at need; just have to want it bad enough). Some of it can probably also be sourced to online Norwegian-language newspapers, but I concur that for this particular information it is not really necessary unless someone specifically challenges it with a valid rationale. -- Xover ( talk) 17:31, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
"A local TV station managed to rent a private helicopter and reach the location before any of the police units"
It this true? From what I understand this was a helicopter from NRK (the Norwegian Broadcasting Company) and it was already in the air when the shooting started. The source for this claim is Czech so I am not able to understand it. I tried removing the sentence before, but the change was reverted saying that the source is valid. Unless someone can actually produce a source in a more common lanugage (and preferably more than one source), I will remove it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.161.122.66 ( talk) 12:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
For the record, NRK is a national TV network, not a local station, and it does not own a helicopter. DES ( talk) 19:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
According to media reports, the suspect "Anders Breivik is believed to have drowned out the screams of his victims by listening to film music from the Lord of the Rings on his iPod. Lux Aeterna, which was used in the battle scenes, is described by the killer as ‘very inspiring and invokes the type of passionate rage within you’." [13] It should be pointed out that Lux Æterna (song) by Clint Mansell was written for Requiem for a Dream and was never used in The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, only in one of the trailers for The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers in 2002, and this probably refers to the orchestral remix known as Requiem for a Tower. [14]-- ♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Bang head against wall. Some more. More proof that Wikipedia has no business covering news, especially controversial news. What next? His favorite Pokemon character? Volunteer Marek ( talk) 06:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
None of this changes the fact that the song is NOT featured AT ANY TIME in the Lord Of the Rings Films. It is from "Requiem for a Dream." It should probably read, "Lux Aeterna" by composer Clint Mansell. Right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.91.70.11 ( talk) 12:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
The Manifesto contains claims many of which are demonstrably false. I am not referring to his subjective views, butn his claims as to his personal life and possibly his moments. It seems to me any reference directly or by secondary sources on the Manifesto's assertions should be qualified with "claimed", ie that he claims to have traveled to London or meetings in 2002. Since he seems to have made a number of things up, eitehr as fantasy or disinformation, such claims shoudl be qualified here, even if a secondary source makes an unqualified statement not corroborated by the authorities (example tracking his known movements). 71.252.101.199 ( talk) 14:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
It seems overly cautious to claim that Breivik had been preparing for his actions from "at least as early as 2009". According to his manifest, he started preparing in 2002: [15] Lampman ( talk) 17:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
If some producers will decide to make a movie about these attacks it will be necessary to mention this fact in the article. LET'S TRY TO SEARCH. 195.122.250.196 ( talk) 17:00, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Many of these aren't crusaders at all. Are we going with the islamist -"against crusaders (that is: christians) and jews" as they put it- definition of a crusader here..? or should we rather try to use use wikipedia's own, more sensible, definition?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusader
"Crusader may refer to:
Military
Crusader, a participant in one of the Crusades"
If ABB himselfs terms/thinks these people crusaders then that should be made clear. As it stands now, it's factually incorrect. 90.227.176.140 ( talk) 17:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
I believe that while the descriptor "Christian" for Breivik is accurate, the description as a "Christian fundamentalist" is based on off-the-cuff assessments in very early reports and should be dropped. I have discussed my reasons in detail at: Talk:Anders_Behring_Breivik#Religious_section where further discussion of this should be directed. Peter G Werner ( talk) 00:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree that the final article on the 2011 Norway Attacks will probably not contain a lot of detail about this person, but perhaps relevant links to other mass murderers, and possible traits they share. 173.247.29.132 ( talk) 01:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
Norwegian professor of police science Tore Bjørgo says the following to Verdens Gang: [16]
– What Anders Behring Breivik has expressed in his profile on the net has been non-violent. He believes in God, but is not particularly religious. It will therefore not be appropriate to categorize him as a Christian fundamentalist. (– Det Anders Behring Breivik har uttrykt i sin profil på nettet har vært ikke-voldelig. Han tror på Gud, men er ikke spesielt religiøs. Det vil derfor ikke være riktig å kategorisere ham som fundamentalistisk kristen.)
Lampman ( talk) 15:17, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
It might be good to realize that "Christian Fundamentalist" probably doesn't carry the same meaning in Europe as in the United States. -- Popoi ( talk) 18:44, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Since we can only reasonably have one image for Breivik, I suggest we replace the existing one with the candid taken at his arraignment. This image shows him in a context more relevant to the the attacks and thus to the article, and will free us from an image that represents how Breivik wants to see himself portrayed but which is not necesarily the most ideal image for our purposes. I mean, come on, the guy looks like a corny G.I. Joe character. And while I'm happy to laugh at his idea of what a great and noble protector of Christendom looks like, it nonetheless seems inappropriate here. What's more, if we go by default with current image, just because it was one of the first available, we're letting Breivik set the tone for our article, which is an inappropriate relationship between the subject of an article and the content, the subject should never influence the form the article takes, even in such a roundabout and unintentional manner. The arraignment image would also be more recent. Thoughts? Snow ( talk) 06:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
In the International Reaction section, the article states that the True Finns party is right-wing. However, they are officially centre-left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.243.250 ( talk) 05:49, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
The article says that the bullets he used were hollow-point, which increase tissue damage. This is all true, but the method of presentation biases the impact on the reader. To my knowledge, if he hadn't used hollow-point, he'd have to have used military-grade ammunition, which would have been difficult to obtain. Most civilian weapons use hollow-point to limit unintended damage to other people (they don't pierce targets). -- 69.61.218.88 ( talk) 05:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Are there any references of the attacks being labelled "seven twentytwo" in Norwegian?-- 85.165.231.254 ( talk) 09:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a section for the Perpetrator, but no section for the Victims. Do we have any information about the victims yet? Who they were? At least one victim (the off duty police officer) has been reported in the media. Burghardts ( talk) 12:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Not even WP:SINGLEEVENT, but WP:MEMORIAL also. If there are notable victims in that are verifiable in reliable sources we *might* include them - but if they were notable before the event the information is better included in their article in wikipedia (or one created if they didn't have one - if they were notable before the attacks), but we do not do this even in September 11 attacks. Even being the youngest victim is still WP:SINGLEEVENT, so I would be careful about inclusion. Notability is a general or specific criteria of an individual, and it is not inherited, so being notable within a single event doesn't necessarily mean notability in a wikipedia sense. I know it is frustrating that we often speak of the perpetrator and little about the victims, but consider that the perpetrator generally has the intent of scrutiny, whereas the victims were private people who do not necessarily want their lives - even if cut short - examined voyeristically because of the actions of someone else. Its about respecting privacy and exercising decorum, as much as it is about encyclopedic quality. -- Cerejota ( talk) 17:03, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Yesterday's Ilta-Sanomat reported that Breivik's first victims on Utoøya were the camp hostess and security officer. The hostess was already suspicious of Breivik when he first arrived on the island, so she went to talk to the security guard, at which point Breivik killed them both. Are there any other sources for this? JIP | Talk 05:02, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14294251 - I'm working so can't do anything with that right now. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:31, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I excised the section entitled "Victims" ( DIFF) for two reasons - firstly as per WP:SINGLEEVENT/ WP:MEMORIAL, and secondly because at present it contained only two names. I don't believe that a list of all 76 victims is appropriate, but as always, lets obtain a consensus first. Manning ( talk) 21:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Age | Total fatalities |
---|---|
10 | 4 |
18 | 2 |
40-50 | 2 |
I feel like a schmuck for doing this to an IP - one who had clearly put a fair amount of work into this. However unless we have a major policy shift, lists of victims do not belong in the article.
For posterity, and review, here is the table that the IP had created: Manning ( talk) 22:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
>XXX ==Victims==
>XXX ===Utøya===
Name | Birth | Age | From |
---|---|---|---|
Sharidyn Svebakk-bøhn | 1997-07-17 | 14 | Drammen |
Silje Merete Fjellbu | 1993-11-13 | 17 | Tinn |
Hanne A. Balch Fjalestad | 1967-10-13 | 43 | Lunner |
Bano Abobakar Rashid | 1992-12-28 | 18 | Nesodden |
Syvert Knudsen | 1993-08-21 | 17 | Lyngdal |
Diderik Aamodt Olsen | 1992-06-03 | 18 | Nesodden |
Simon Sæbø | 1992-07-25 | 18 | Salangen |
Synne Røyneland | 1993-01-18 | 18 | Oslo |
Anne Lise Holter | 1959-09-16 | 52 | Våler, Østfold |
Trond Berntsen | 1960-05-12 | 51 | Øvre Eiker |
Birgitte Smetbak | 1996-02-25 | 15 | Nøtterøy |
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven | 1995-03-03 | 16 | Bærum |
Even Flugstad Malmedal | 1992-12-06 | 18 | Gjøvik |
Gunnar Linaker | 1988-07-07 | 23 | Bardu |
>XXX ===regjeringskvartalet (the Government Quarter)===
Name | Birthday | Age | From |
---|---|---|---|
Tove Åshill Knutsen | 1954-07-31 | 56 | Oslo |
Hanna M. Orvik Endresen | 1950-03-21 | 51 | Oslo |
Kai Hauge | 1978-07-31 | 32 | Oslo |